← Translating ADHD
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- [00:02]
A
Hi, I'm Ash.
- [00:04]
B
And I'm Dusty.
- [00:05]
A
And this is Translating adhd.
- [00:08]
B
Just a reminder, I'm doing my next coaching demo on April 16th at 8:30pm EST. So if you're not a member of the Patreon group, but you'd like to be coached by me or hear me coach someone and just kind of get access to all the really cool back end stuff that we do on translating in hd, it's a good time to sign up. And for those who are already subscribed, April 16, 8:30pm EST mark it in your calendars.
- [00:30]
A
So Dusty. So Ash, today we are continuing our topic from last week. So last week we talked about social skills and awareness and this week we're kind of pivoting into advocacy and adaptation, specifically at work. Because at work we aren't always able to show up as our authentic selves. So what does it look like to adapt? What does it look like to advocate for yourself? And something you said towards the end of our episode last week and something I think will be really interesting to talk about, how do you identify when it's maybe not a safe situation to do either?
- [01:18]
B
Yeah, I've had, unfortunately, so many clients have to go through this in a way where their, their ADHD shows up, whether it has to do with how they do the work. But sometimes in the case of like a client of mine that I was talking with recently, it shows up like in their personality, their way of being, their communication style. And I think the problem is like, if you're in a workplace where ADHD is not widely understood, you know, something that Cam always said was like, in the absence of information, like, neurotypical people are going to come to other conclusions. Like they're going to draw their own conclusions based on their own data. Right. And so this is exactly what happened to my client is her work was actually good and she got let go. And it was devastating because her boss was like, it's the way that you are. Like, it's the, it's your, you know, she was being perceived as acting against authority, like anti authoritarian. She was being perceived as like questioning in this way that is like undermining, I guess she was perceived as being disruptive. And the heartbreaking part is that all she wanted to do was like, do a good job and all of those things. When she explained her side of it or her reason for acting that way was always just, you know, seeking clarity, wanting to be specific, wanting to put your best foot forward. And I see this especially a lot when it comes to autistic or ADHD people too. Like, very often I've found it to be the case with my own clients or with just content that I've seen online that autistic or ADHD people will ask questions, clarifying questions, but they ask too many questions. Maybe they're not managing tone correctly. And so they're. They're. Instead of getting the clarity they're looking for, they get perceived as challenging and being aggressive. And so the more that they're seeking clarity, instead of getting more clarity and being able to, like, do their best work, which is all they're trying to do, they're often met with, like, more defensiveness. And all of a sudden, you can be in a situation where you're suddenly having a fight with someone and something escalates and you're like, oh, my God, what's happening?
- [03:21]
A
So.
- [03:22]
B
So I think it is really important to talk about what to do in a workplace where your neurodivergence isn't gonna be understood. But before you can do that, you have to understand how it shows up, and you have to understand how other people might perceive it and where what you're putting out is not what people are picking up.
- [03:41]
A
Desi. I had an ADHD client that recently went through something like this, and it was actually due to a change in who his manager was. So his previous manager left that role for something else, and a new manager was hired, onboarded, brought in, whatever, and his workplace situation went from one where there was a high level of trust between him and his manager. He was known for being the guy in terms of if you need to know something, if you need something fixed, if you need something done, I trust you, you're reliable to the exact opposite of that. Despite no change in his performance. And so much of the disconnect was this new manager's very neurotypical, very by the book way of doing things, clashing with my client's neurodivergence and his previous freedom to do things in a way that worked well for him that she didn't understand and was taking as kind of affronting.
- [04:54]
B
Yeah, and that's it, right? Like, we talk about workplace accommodations and we think about them from the perspective of how ADHD impacts our work. But we actually also do need workplace accommodations sometimes that help make space for how we show up in a communication sense or in a social sense, because those are, like, gray area things that do affect, like, stuff like job performance, job promotion, even job security. That really, this is a thing that affects people getting fired and stuff. And I'VE seen it more than once. If you are not liked because people think that you're weird or people think that you're rude or people find you challenging, that is much a detriment to your career as the quality of your work. And so we do need those workplace accommodations sometimes around those. And those do exist, is my understanding, like, under the ADA and here in Canada as well. But I think they're just not more widely known. And I think we don't always have that awareness of our adhd, that those are the kind of accommodations that we need. Like, I personally have definitely lost a job due to my personality. It was back when I was in college. I was, like, working at a bubble tea place, and the people I was working for were coming from, like, a really different culture than me that had a bigger, you know, I think, like, focus on sort of, like, respect and hierarchy. And then I'm like, this little, like, bum from the trailer park in Prince George, and I'm like, so irreverent. And I'm like, so I was so inappropriate in my teens and early twenties, Asher. Like, I could not act appropriately in different situations if I tried. And so, like, I feel bad for these poor people. But, like, I also was really enthusiastic. I wanted to do a good job at that job. And it was a really. It was like a little bubble tea cafe. So it's often very slow. Like, there wasn't always a lot to do. And so whenever there wasn't a lot to do, I would do extra things. I would, like, clean things, I would stock things. Like, I went out of my way to do the best job that I could, and I still ended up getting fired and having this, like, personality conflict with the main person who was running that business. And when I look back on it, I can see moments where I, like, did things that were, like, so inappropriate to do in the workplace. Just, like, in how it, like, I was acting out kind of. You know what I mean? Like, I was having a big personality moment and kind of not aware of how I was being perceived or, like, not aware that, okay, hey, your boss is looking at you, and, like, she is not. She's not loving this, like, thing that you're doing that you think is, like, kind of funny, right? And it was, like, heartbreaking when I lost that job. And I didn't understand why. And I felt like it was so unfair. Luckily for me, that was a long time ago, but that. That stuck with me. So we do need those accommodations. Sometimes we're working in a workplace where we can get those accommodations and we should ask for them proactively and that's going to make a difference. Sometimes we're working in a workplace where those accommodations are not going to be understood. They're not possible, or they're not going to make a difference. And that's probably an untenable situation either way. But I think it is hard to know if you're that person needing it, what those accommodations are and where your like. Because it requires us to have a social awareness that sometimes doesn't come naturally. And we need to know ourselves and we need to kind of understand what the unwritten rules of like most places are. Which is not to say that we're always showing up wrong and that we always have to conform to those rules. But in a workplace where you are dependent on that company or whatever for like your ability to pay rent, it's an unequal power dynamic. And so it does mean that we have to like watch our butts more.
- [08:23]
A
Exactly, Dusty. And in the case of the client that I was just speaking about, it was pretty evident early on that this new manager had a pretty rigid way of thinking and wasn't going to be open to accommodating. It just, it was very, very clear. And so the coaching work became a couple of things. Number one, my client sort of learning and understanding what the rules are well enough to adapt for now, to make this work, for now to kind of fly under the radar and minimize conflict with this manager while also evaluating what's next because he was realizing more and more that this was no longer going to be a good fit for him, that the accommodating workplace that he previously had was so much of why he excelled in in the workplace. And he felt like he was being hamstrung there. And so that client did eventually end up same company, but did eventually end up changing teams to a team that values his working style, a team that's a lot more experimental. And so his neurodivergent working style is not only not a hindrance, but it's something that's valued and under management that is a lot more flexible in their thinking. And so unfortunately, yes, there are times where it's untenable and we just have to do what we can do as we figure out how we might pivot. Because especially when the rules are unspoken, I will say that was probably the one saving grace for my client in this situation is while this new manager was incredibly rigid, she was also at least clear about where she was being rigid. And though my client didn't agree and found it frustrating and difficult to work under, he could at least sort of understand what the rules are. And when you're in a situation where you don't even understand what the rules are and no one's willing to help you figure out what the rules are, unfortunately that's a situation that ends up a lot more like your client, where the situation comes to a head and we're not finding out what our role was in that until it is much, much, much too late. And listeners, that's such an awful place to be. I have been there before in my life as well. And I just want to double down on the fact that that's not your stuff. That's bad management. If you don't know where your challenges are until you're being let go, that's not all on you. Yes, your ADHD might be playing a role. Yes, your neurodivergence might be in the room there, but that's not all on you and you don't have to own that as being all your stuff.
- [11:28]
B
Yeah, Ash, I'm glad you said that because, like, it really isn't fair. And I can, even though, like, I, like, I'm not autistic, but I really resonate with a lot of the like, social, the sort of the soft skills, communication, social stuff that I hear autistic clients and ADHD people struggling with because like, for me, I'm very hyperactive adc and so that often does show up as like impulse control issues. Right? Like, I understand social rules. For the most part. I can conform to them in a way that isn't harmful to me if I remember to do so. But I am often forgetting to read the room and I'm often like just bursting with like, energy and reactivity and emotional dysregulation. For me, like, sometimes emotional dysregulation shows up as like, woo, like party, party. Like I'm like at a max 10, like I'm dialed up to 11 a lot of the time in a good way. And I'm like too excited, like big golden retriever energy, like bull in a china shop. So, so I've, I've suffered, I think in my life a lot of negative consequences from not behaving in socially appropriate ways myself. And so like, I really, my heart goes out to people who are, who struggle with that. And, and part of the problem here too is like, yes, it's bad management, but I also do think that this is somewhere where we can recognize that there's a structural issue. Like last, last session I talked about the concept of disability justice, and one thing I'm so grateful for is that we're starting to have language around this, because without language, without conceptual language, we can't even begin to approach the concepts. Like, we're talking about this idea of, like, neuro inclusion or, like, neuroaffirming whatever, or like, ner. Like even just saying, like, neurodiverse or neurodivergent friendly, whatever, Right? It just. It puts on the map this idea that there's something about being neurodivergent that's. That's as real as, like, disability inclusion, but somehow a little bit separate. Because obviously the term disability is such a huge banner. It can mean anything from, like, wheelchair access to, like, braille, right? But when we kind of specifically talk about this idea of, like, neurodivergence inclusion, I think it does help people conceptually understand of, like, the, like, what is it that's different and harder for neurodivergent people? And so often it is that intangible communication, social understanding part that we take for granted. Right. So I think the hard part is when we're talking about rules in a neurotypical society or in sort of a bit of an ableist society, people don't even think those are rules. They think that they're moral failings. Right? It's an assumption that everybody knows how to act properly, and if you don't act properly, you. It's intentional. Right? Everybody assumes, oh, that's just not how it's done. Like, use your common sense. Like, it. It's almost so ingrained in our culture, and it doesn't kind of have language that when you behave in a way that people don't expect, they. They will see it as, like, transgressive, as moral failing, as, like, per. Like a personality flaw. And for my client who was recently let go, that's exactly. Like, you could just tell from the way that the. The person spoke about her that, like, it was. This person was taking every single neurodivergent trait that she had and just reading it as, like, you're a pain in the ass. Like, your personality is, like, rubbing me the wrong way. And that clearly that boss, maybe they didn't want to understand, but they're obviously lacking the language, the tools and the concept to understand what neurodiversity looks like in the workplace. Now we can pivot. I just wanted to add that, like, it's. If we don't have the language, we can't even discuss it. So I'm so glad that this is starting to be a thing.
- [14:59]
A
And dusty, speaking of having the language, you. You shared this document with me put out by the center for ADHD Awareness in Canada that breaks down different ADHD symptoms and talks about possible accommodations. We're going to link that document in today's show notes because certainly as we talk about adaptation and advocacy, a lot of the work that happens in coaching around that is building some awareness about what do I even ask for, what do I even need, how and where am I showing up that isn't working and what could I do about that. And I think this document does a great job of perhaps giving you some new awareness, giving you some potential ideas there. If you are in a position where you're considering I need to adapt and, or I want to advocate for some accommodations for myself. I think this points to some great places that you might look based on what your own challenges are. So that document will be linked in today's show notes. So, yeah, let's pivot and talk about when there is opportunity for adaptation and or advocacy. I had a client who was very valued in the workplace for what he did. But a frustration that his manager had with him is unprofessional behavior in meetings, particularly when those meetings included clients. And this manager was able to give some very specific feedback. It's that you blurt out. It's that you ask questions before someone has finished talking. It's that you sometimes take the conversation in a different direction when that's not wanted. And this is all very adhd, right? This is. Are contextual brains processing information very differently than a neurotypical presenting information in a linear fashion. And so. So for this client, our coaching work was all around how do you adapt? And some of that was examining why this behavior was happening. Again, that contextual brain, sometimes we have a question that is going to be answered later, but we want to know the answer now. So writing down those questions rather than blurting out in the moment and waiting to see if the question was answered or not. Another challenge for this client was staying engaged. If it's a conversation, we can stay very engaged as ADHD people. If we're being talked at, it can be a lot more challenging to stay engaged and to process that information. So also having a debrief meeting with his manager after the meeting to make sure that he had the right takeaways, to make sure that he did understand what happened in that meeting was another way to accommodate. So taking notes in the moment, kind of noticing that impulse to blurt out and instead Taking notes about it instead. But also, there's an accommodation piece there where I may not be able to stay engaged through all of this. I may miss something. So being able to have that more conversational moment afterwards that helps me process and understand what has happened in this meeting is also very helpful. So little column A, little column B there. In terms of my client adapting his behavior, but also advocating for the needs to be met in a different way so that he could still get what he needed without the disruptive behavior.
- [18:39]
B
Yeah, I love it when I meet a person who just so naturally synthesizes and integrates the way that they are and can front load that in a way that doesn't make it weird. Like, I've met people who are like, oh, just so you know, like, I'm the kind of person who like, interrupts all the time. So, like, if I interrupt, you just tell me to shut up or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, they. I love it when people can do that so casually. Because I think, like, we all. If, if. If you have any level of social struggle, you kind of. It's great if you can learn to advocate for yourself like that where you, no matter where you are, a personal relationship or even at work, be like, hey, just so you know, like, I tend to, you know, for example, ask a lot of questions. Like, I really want to get things right, and I'll, like, ask way too many questions. And it, like, kind of drives people crazy. So if I'm doing that, you just know that, like, that's because, like, I want to do things right. And, like, you can totally tell me, like, hey, that's too many questions, for example. Right? Like, that would be a great way to like. And that doesn't mean that that person's gonna do that. But at that point, like, you've put it out there. And so, like, we can ask for formal accommodations. I saw there's one in that document that says something like, managers can talk to other employees in the workplace and, like, explain the condition or, like, advocate for that person. Right? So, like, to help alleviate interpersonal struggles, helping the people on your team to understand, like, hey, this person is, like, a little bit different. And like, some people might not be comfortable with that, but, like, I also do think that's really good because, again, like, ADHD and autism are disabilities, right? And so if I was working somewhere, like, I'm trying, I'm imagining, okay, I used to work in, like, a liquor store. And a lot of the, you know, retail work in that liquor store was very Physical, like picking up boxes, moving things. So like, let's say we had someone who was working really slowly on the team or putting things in the wrong place. Well, if they had like a traumatic brain injury and if someone said to me like, oh, so, and such is always putting things in the wrong place, like it would be my job as the manager to be like, okay, yeah, no, I hear that you're frustrated. But also like, let's keep in mind this, it's harder for this person because of this extraneous, you know, set of circumstances. And so I think it can be good, especially if you're in more of like a button down workplace where there's sort of unwritten but very common social norms like office work. I think a good manager can be someone who's like, hey, just so you know, like, yeah, this person like acts this way, you don't have to like it and we can like manage and mitigate any impacts on you. But like, they're not doing it because they're a jerk or they're not doing it because they don't, they want to bother you. Like, this is, you know, this is a thing that they can't really control or this is the thing that I'm working with them on, for example. And then a lot of those accommodations, when it comes to stuff that might be more like soft skills or social implications, like interrupting, blurting, looking distracted in meetings, a lot of the accommodations do come down to how the manager can support the employee. Like the manager can help the employee. One that I really like that I, I've rarely seen used, but I wish it would be used more is like the manager can help the employee like develop kind of a, a framework or almost a phrase for not biting off more than they can chew. So if you're in a workplace where multiple projects can, can get piled on you and you're the person with ADT and you don't realize that you're taking on too much or maybe you also have like people pleasing, you know, you struggle with low self esteem. It's great if your manager can back you up and be like, hey Ash, just as a reminder, like we've talked about this before, you know that you get behind when you take on too many projects. So if, like, if this department in that department is asking you to do this and that, Ash, I want you to feel comfortable saying like, hey, let me check my calendar or slack before I say yes to this project. Let me get back to you. Like if I can back you up as your manager, call out the behavior in a loving way and be like Ash, don't be afraid to set boundaries with people and tell them no, I can't take that project on. Like that's great. I don't think a lot of managers are willing to do that. I wish they would because like I have especially in tech. Like I have clients who work in tech and I've recently been working with a client who got a poor employee review. Like he got a poor review and it was because he didn't have, he didn't deliver a lot of his deliverables because he worked in tech, but he was in some kind of middle management. And so we started looking at like okay, where is his time going? Because he wanted his bosses wanted him to like time track, to figure out where all his time is going. So I helped him sort of set up a very structured short term time tracking thing. And what we realized, Ash is like the majority of his day was going to helping other people. Because in tech I guess it's really common. You get a lot of messages on Slack. People are asking you for help for this or that. And because he's like you, that accommodating people pleasing type, he will give away his whole day, all his time helping people problem solve this problem or that problem and then they'll get their deliverables done and he won't. So that's like an example of to me, someone who needs their manager to back them up and be like okay, we see what the problem is. It's not that you're not working, it's not that you're not producing, is that you're helping too much and like is this part of your job description? How much of your job is this an expectation that you're help, you will help and if it isn't, can I help support you in being comfortable saying no to people?
- [23:29]
A
Dusty I, I love this as an accommodation because it addresses several things. Number one, it creates that pause, disrupt, pivot moment in the moment. So putting some space between the ask and the response. And that's something that I work with clients on a lot both in the workplace and when it comes to personal matters. Because we can tend to default to that. That yes, either out of enthusiasm or out of the opposite, out of guilt. Shame. One down. I should people pleasing. But particularly in the workplace, those of us with ADHD really struggle to conceptualize how much work should I be doing, how much work are other people doing? And so, so often with my clients who are in a more traditional role, particularly in office Work, particularly, particularly in tech, there is this belief, and even, by the way, if their performance reviews are great or fine, that they are doing less than everyone else. And so part of that pile on behavior can be out of the belief that we are not doing enough. So a manager or a co worker who's willing to be a supportive person and gut check us in that way to help us better conceptualize when we've got enough on our plate versus when we don't, that can also be incredibly helpful because we. We really struggle to understand because. Because we live in the now and we can't really understand a week from now, two weeks from now, three weeks from now, a from now. We really, really struggle to see when our plate is too full until it's really too full. And we often tend to believe that we're doing less than others. So we feel like we have to say yes, we have to take it on. So somebody who can better conceptualize that and help us see when our plate is full enough, help us better, better understand that for ourselves. Huge. Huge.
- [25:44]
B
Yeah. And I just want to pivot again because I think the thing I really wanted to make sure that we covered in this episode was like, the idea that there can be a gap in understanding how you are being perceived in the workplace and the negative impacts that can have. And it would be great if we lived in a world where neurodivergence was understood to be something that's not really our fault, not always within our control, and that people were willing to accommodate us. Great. When that can happen, some of these accommodations will bridge some of that gap. But my concern is often, because I've had clients get fired from jobs before for stuff like this, and it's rarely, ever so explicit as it was with my most recent client. But it's like, if your bosses don't like you and the people you work with don't like you, or they're taking you the wrong way, they're gonna find trouble with your work. And then even if you work harder and harder. And this is exactly what happened to me at that bubble tea place. And it's like so funny because it was years ago. I was like 18 years old, but, like, I had a little work review where they were like, you are not doing a good job. And I challenged every single thing that they said. I was like. They were like, you don't do this. And I'm like, but I did do that. And they're like, oh, yeah, I guess that's true. And so they had kind of put me on this action plan, and I was like, oh, no. And I worked even harder, and they still let me go in the end, because at the end of the day, like, I think they just. They wanted to follow the proper procedure. Like, they had just decided they want to get rid of me, so they wanted to follow the proper steps. And. And I'm. I'm, like, guilty of this as well. Not in a. I don't think from a neurodivergent perspective, but when I manage that liquor store that I mentioned. So I was brought in to manage this liquor store, and I had never. I was very new to retail. I didn't have a lot of retail experience, but I had a lot of management experience. And one of the things I flagged right away is that, like, all the personalities that were working in this liquor store, again, it was like, a lot of young people, a lot. There were a lot of personality clashes and power struggles. And in particular, there was just this one guy who worked there, and he was like, the. The previous manager had been his buddy, and he just, like, didn't like the cut of my jib. Like, he didn't like me. And so he was not. How do I say? Like, he wouldn't follow my lead. He was challenging me in a way that. That definitely wasn't, like, you know, oh, I'm mistaking his neurodivergence. Like, he didn't like me, and he didn't like that I made him do a lot more work than he used to do because, like, it's a liquor store. A lot of people get away with, like, just kind of stuff standing around putzing about all day. But I had been sort of tasked with, like, you know. You know, clean up the ship, tighten. Tighten the ship up. Like, get everyone going. And so I was, like, quite hard on him, and I wanted him to do better. And there was just this constant pushback, this constant, like, undermining. We had this big personality clash. He wasn't happy. I wasn't happy. His work only moderately improved. But eventually, like, we had an incident where I was like, I can let this person go for this. And I did. I took that because I was like, I can't manage this guy. He doesn't like me, and he's, like, making my life miserable. So, like, I can. I don't love that. I don't love that I'm telling this story. But, like, from the management perspective, I can say that, like, managers absolutely do get rid of you if they're just, like, they don't like you. And they'll look for, you know, in this guy's case, like, his. His work was like. I mean, I could argue that he didn't do good work, but it was specifically that. There was one incident that I could have just given him a talking to, but I was like, I'm pushing this guy out the door right now. Like, I need to get this guy out of here. So it is important for us to understand as neurodivergent people, like, it's not just about the work. It is about how do we fit in with the team. How do. Like, every manager is different. A great manager will see your challenges or see your personality and accommodate that. Like, I think I am actually quite a good manager because I studied a lot of management theory, and that's what I understand. Like, a good manager supports their team. But unfortunately, a lot of people get promoted to managers just because they're good at their job, but they know nothing about management. And they have. They bring all their ego and they're all. All their own insecurities to that position. So as a. As a worker, it's important to understand, like, what kind of manager do I have? Do I have the kind of manager who's good at their job, who's going to support me, or do I have the kind of manager that, like, I have to pander to or I have to be careful of? And if that's the kind of manager that you have or that's the kind of colleagues that you have, how much power do these people have to make my life miserable? And if there's power there, what do I need to know about them to, like, either fly under the radar or, like, make sure that I'm being perceived in a way that is positive. And that's a lot of work on a person who's already neurodivergent. But unfortunately, I do think that we are more prone to the consequences. And so starting to learn, like, how do I assess safety for myself in the workplace as who I am? Do I have a manager that I need to adapt to? Do I have colleagues that I need to adapt to? Are there opportunities for them to adapt to? Like, how much can I show up as myself and feel safe? And, like, if that's not the case, if you're in the kind of workplace where you're gonna have to do more of the adapting, like, understanding what that is? Right. So, like, in my client's case, you know, there was that whole thing of, like, questions being perceived as, like, aggression or undermining. And again, I think that like, for this particular client, there's a, still a big perception gap or like self awareness gap where they're really, they just keep trying harder and harder to do better and better, but they're doing it in the wrong. Then people are not picking up what she's putting down and so it's coming back to bite her. And then that's a big surprise, right? But like, one of the things we're going to work on is like, okay, now we know, right, that like people are going to take it this, some people are going to take it this way and we can mitigate that in future workplaces. But if we're, if it becomes clear that you're working in a future workplace where those kinds of questions are going to be taken as challenges or they're not going to be taken well, now, now my client has a choice, right? They can keep doing the same thing that makes sense to them and be like, well, I'm just trying to do my best job and they can hit their head against a wall or they can go, okay, I think that this is what I should do. I don't like that other people take it this way, but I'm gonna understand that, like asking questions in this way is going to be taken the wrong way. And so do I need to be asking these questions? Is it just my style? Is it my preference? Am I unable to do my job without this clarity? And if so, how do I get that clarity in a different way? Because, like, we can do A plus B and we can know what's gonna happen. Whereas, like, yeah, for some of us with ADHD and autism and adhd, like, those things don't come naturally. We have to learn them in a much more manual sense and then remember to remember them when we need them, which sucks. But is the case.
- [32:04]
A
Yeah, Dusty, what you're talking about here in a nutshell is cultivating awareness, which is what we teach our clients to do in coaching in all facets of life, but putting some intentionality behind paying attention differently in the workplace. Whenever I am working with clients on workplace conflict, be it with a supervisor or co worker, I really like to use my yours, mine and ours model. So what this is is what's yours? What's your stuff? What's your adhd? Where do you see opportunities to improve, to adapt, to advocate? What's not your stuff, what's the other person's stuff, and where's the middle ground, if there is one? The reason I like this exercise is it tends to really be a clarifier in terms of where there's opportunity and where there's not. So for example, I had a client who had a coworker who just did not like her and at every opportunity would undercut her, undermine her. And my client is coming in good faith to coaching, wanting to have a better outcome with this person, but after working through this exercise, coming to a realization differently that it's not her stuff, it's not her stuff, and she's already made good faith attempts to have a better experience with this person. And those attempts have not gone well. So there's no opportunity in the realm of hours. Compare that with another client of mine who's who worked for a small company at the time, worked directly under two owners who were frustrated by his ADHD and those behaviors, but also supportive of him and valued him as an employee. And in that case, when we broke down yur's, mine and ours, we not only found lots of opportunity, but we found some like, interesting, nuanced things based on his knowing of his bosses. The biggest of which was because of the age and lived experience of these two bosses. Talking about advocacy in the language of neurodivergence and ADHD kind of muddied the waters or could muddy the waters because those people might jump to some incorrect conclusions. But if we could make the language plainer and just talk about what support looked like, what he needed from his bosses to be more successful without necessarily bringing neurodivergence into the picture, they were hugely supportive and willing to adapt and change. And so the opportunity with this exercise is to, is to, is to find where the opportunity is. What's my stuff, if any, right? What's my stuff to work on? What's completely not my stuff? And is there opportunity here to co create around solutions in the realm of ours or not?
- [35:10]
B
Yeah, exactly. And I like that model because again, when it comes to stuff like social understanding and communication, it is a shared space. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. For me, just as you were talking, I was thinking, I was also thinking about going back to that example of working in the bubble tea place. Like I, I think the thing I've often struggled with is understanding when it's okay to be like irreverent and like funny, inappropriate and when not because you, you always, everywhere you go you see that person who's got that like really charming personality and they like, they're kind of sassy. And I always wanted to be like that. But I think I often overshot the mark when I was first trying. And so I would just come off as obnoxious. And I didn't understand when I was being like, funny, sassy, cute and endearing and when I was being like, obnoxious and so like at that bubble tea job, I definitely missed the mark. But shortly thereafter, I went on to work at a job as a street fundraiser. And it sounds like the most horrible job, but honestly, Asher, this job like changed my life. So this company that I worked for in Vancouver, they would hire young people like me who were like, kind of weirdos, like kind of off the beaten path type, like socially inappropriate types who didn't fit in anywhere because our job was to like, stand out on the street for like organizations like Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders, and we had to talk to strangers and like, engage with strangers. And so all of a sudden all my flaws became my strengths. And I was like one of the best fundraisers. And I worked there. I worked for that organization for years. It paid a great wage. It gave opportunities to people just like me who had trouble fitting in elsewhere. It allowed us to see our strengths because our ability to like, not respect social boundaries and like, not be afraid to like, overstep and not be afraid to like, overshare helped us to connect to like, people and like, find. Find this meaningful connection that then compelled these people to want to get involved in like, changing the world. But also, like, the people who ran the company, like, weren't too fussed about the fact that like, there were a lot of big personalities to manage. Like, it was these, it was these two guys who were partners with each other and they had. Originally there was four of them, but there's these two guys, they're a married couple. And I think like one of the guys in the, in the partnership himself was like quite this big zany personality, like came from an acting background. So like, you know, he set the tone for the company and you know, we got a lot of work done, we made a lot of money, everybody was happy. And yet it was just like all these big socially inappropriate types. And that was like. So I played to my strength for several years and through that company, that's how I learned so much management theory. Like, I became an excellent manager of people like that. I raised so much money, like literally tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars for really good causes. And so I was able to play to my strengths using those, that same thing. But over the years I think I've also been able to hone that, that understanding of like, when is irreverence and sort of being sassy. And funny and like a bit, you know, expectation breaking appropriate. And when is it, like, absolutely inappropriate? Like, if I'm having a consultation with a brand new client that I know nothing about, I'm not usually like swearing and like, blah, blah, blah. Right. Like, I'll start off a little more chill because I don't know what type of person they are, I don't know what they're expecting, I don't know what's going to offend them. But like throughout the consultation and if we start to work together, like, I'll kind of like let them know, okay, this is like my style. To me as a coach, professionalism is in the quality of services I deliver and the level of commitment I have to you as being your coach. Which professionalism for me is not, you know, I'm not always 100% on time for my calls. I'm not always as tidy looking as I could be. Yeah, sometimes I do like, swear, but I hold coaching ethics in the highest and I'm like, I like fricking show up for my clients. So I've been able to craft a life that plays, that both plays towards my strengths so I can show up authentically. But at the same time, I have also developed that social understanding in a way that's allowed me to be more successful as a coach. And I think it is in that nuanced space that we have to kind of exist. But also, like, I always want people to hope that there is a, if they're in a bad fit, like, work wise environment. You know, I was lucky enough to find a really unorthodox workplace that allowed me to thrive. And I always want to inspire clients that like, somewhere out there there's a boss just like me or a boss boss just like Asher, or a boss like that boss that I had at my company. Where you are going to be able to be yourself, but it can be hard to find Dusty.
- [39:33]
A
Somewhere out there, there might be the right fit where you can be yourself. But even then, as you just described, context matters in terms of who we're being and how we're showing up. Something I so often say to clients. And I think a great note for us to end today's episode on is that strength and challenge are two sides of the same coin. That story that you just told illustrated that beautifully. That same personality set of personality traits that was such a detriment to you in the bubble tea place and such an asset to you in the fundraising place, and since then has become something that you've learned how to evaluate the context to adapt how you show up. And not that you're being someone different necessarily, but you're just recognizing what the context calls for. You're being more aware of how you're showing up. You're being more aware of how and when you can leverage that as a strength and when it might be in the realm of challenge, and it behooves you to show up a little bit differently. So, listeners, I think that's a great place for us to wrap today's episode. Until next week. I'm Ash. And I'm Dusty, and this was the Translating ADHD podcast. Thanks for listening, Sam.