← Translating ADHD
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- [00:02]
A
Hi, I'm Ash. And I'm Dusty and this is translating ADHD listeners. Our next coaching demo will be with me Thursday, May 14th at 8pm Eastern. These demos are for our Patreon subscribers only, so if you are not yet a Patreon subscriber, visit the website, click on the Patreon tab and for five bucks a month you gain access to these monthly demos with either Dusty or I and you gain access to the podcast Discord.
- [00:32]
B
Registration is also open now for the ADHD bootcamp that I run every year. So this is like a structured guided mega body doubling session. So it happens over six sessions. It is all about sort of resetting your home, decluttering and then changing up your space to be more ADHD friendly and maintainable and sort of learning about spatial management and organization as we go along. It's me and a bunch of my clients and hopefully some of you. It is going to be starting on June 7th and then it's going to be running on the 14th, the 20th and 21st and July, July 4th and 5th. So until May 1st you get early bird registration, so you get a discount on the cost of registering. So sign up before May 1st to save some money and come hang out with me and I'll help you get your house organized.
- [01:18]
A
And listeners, I am still looking to take on a couple more clients, so if you are looking for one on one ADHD coaching, visit my website, coachasher.com fill out the form and I will look forward to speaking with you. So Dusty, we just did a big series on social skills, but today we're going to flip the script a little bit and talk about kind of putting yourself in the picture when it comes to seeking out and crafting the kind of friendships and relationships that you want to have.
- [01:49]
B
Yeah, I think that concept of the ADHD coming to relationships from the ADHD one down perspective is certainly something we have to cope with on a lot of levels and in a lot of relationships. But we know that connection and understanding and validation and fun is so important for ADHD brains and people with ADHD are at a higher risk of loneliness. So we really need to have good, meaningful friendships. And that doesn't just mean showing up as a good friend in the ways you think you're supposed to, like remembering birthdays or returning phone calls. It also means having relationships that actually nourish you and fill your tank.
- [02:25]
A
Dusty, I actually have a funny story on the topic of remembering birthdays. And by the way, all of my closest friends know that I will, I will not remember your birthday. I just. I'm not that guy. I've never been that guy. I don't expect you to remember my birthday. Like, that can be fully reciprocal, and that's okay. Last month, one of my best friends treated my kid and I to tickets to a musical. All three of us went together, along with her other best friend. And I did not know. And she was perfectly fine with this, by the way, which kind of illustrates the point we're getting to. I did not know that this was to celebrate her birthday until the other friend gave her a birthday gift. And I was like, oh, happy birthday. I'm glad we're here for you for your birthday. And again, for her. She knew that about me. It was okay that I didn't know. She was not at all offended. In fact, we had a good laugh about it. But that's kind of the point that we're getting to. I think something we can often forget as people with ADHD is we can be a choice about our friendships and what works for us and what doesn't. And a friend that is going to be pissed off at me every year because I don't remember their birthday is not a friendship that I'm going to be able to maintain. Because if that expectation is there, chances are there are going to be other expectations there that just do not work for me and the way that my brain works.
- [03:50]
B
Yeah. And like, here's the thing. I think there's so much expected of us as neurodivergent adults. Like, we have to be so flexible in adapting to other people's ways. But, like, other people can be flexible and adapt to us, too. For example, like, I love birthdays. I'm huge on birthdays. I love to throw people a huge birthday. I love to celebrate my birthday. But I long ago let go of that kind of ire of, like, oh, so and so didn't remember my birthday. Like, for example, my sister is horrible about that. I'll never forget. It's kind of funny. And I'm not ragging on her. But, like, the year my mom died, my mom died in January. And then on the first birthday that I had without her was, like, really hard. So it was my birthday. I was, like, crying. My sister called me up. Nobody really did anything for me on my birthday. Like, nobody else in my family is very close to me. So, like, I didn't really get presents or cake. And just with the absence of my mom, it was really hard. And my. And so my sister called me up that evening, and I was I had this moment where I was like, oh, she remembered my birthday, and she had no idea it was my birthday at all. She was just, like, calling me to chat. She, like, didn't put two and two together. She's like, hey, how's it going? And I'm like, no, very good. And she's like, why? I'm like, I just miss my mom and it's my birthday. She's like, oh, it's your birthday? And here I had this moment of being like, oh, she remembered and she's taking care of me. And then she didn't. And of course she felt bad. But, like, I kind of realized, like, okay, you know what? She's. It's. No, I'm just hurting myself if I, like, put that expectation on her. So, like, I just don't expect her to remember my birthday, my kid's birthday. Like, she's not that kind of person. And, like, it just doesn't bother me. But I have other friends who I know I can sort of count on that way. And it matters to me. Like, I love to celebrate birthdays, but I'm, like, not offended anymore. Like, if somebody else isn't a birthday person, I just know not to, like, count on them for that. And it's kind of the same, I think, with anything. And this is the point I want to get at is, like, we don't always have to be the ones to be flexible. We can also ask for flexibility, and other people can practice with us the idea that if they really like to be on time somewhere, they probably have plenty of friends who are good at being on time. And, yeah, if you're not being good at being on time and they want to be friends with you, like, maybe you find a different way to relate to each other that isn't going to negatively impact either of you. It's not going to put pressure on you to become this person that you're not and be really timely. But it's also not going to, like, continually stress them out. We can find something in the middle. And as you say, Asher, like, it can be something that. I forget exactly how you said this, but, like, it can be something that serves you as the person with adhd. Like, you're allowed to have relationships that make you feel good and relationships that work for you and to lean into friendships that more naturally fill your tank and work with your vibe. And you. You're allowed to sort of step back from ones that always feel like a fight or an uphill battle.
- [06:31]
A
Exactly. Dusty. Something that I have learned to do in my own life is to not only be at choice about what friendships I'm in or what effort I'm going to put into friendships, but I've really sort of learned what a good close friend looks like for me. I know how to. I know how to vet people in terms of whether or not this is a person that I want to explore. Taking a friendship to a deeper level. And I really know what a good, deep friendship looks like for me. We were talking about this off mic, and I'll. You can get to what a good friendship looks like for you in a moment, but it's very different for both of us. And for me, I love conversation. And I genuinely think this has to do with the fact that I have aphantasia. So I have no visual brain like my. There's nothing. Like, I close my eyes and it's darkness. So more so than other people, words are the way that I make meaning. So I enjoy good conversation. Whether it's sort of that deep getting to know you, swapping stories, swapping lore, or whether it's just sort of spitballing about whatever. I just. I enjoy getting lost in a conversation with somebody, and I enjoy friendships in which that is mutually enjoyable. So most of my socialization is in settings where this is possible. If I'm going out to group things, it's the type of setting where smaller conversations can happen. If I'm setting up plans with friends, I don't. I don't want to go to a movie. I don't want to watch something. I want to do something where we can. Where conversation can be part of the picture. Like, we can. We can play games, we can play video games. We can. We can do other things. But I certainly do not want to do an activity that means conversation is off the table, with the notable exception of seeing live music together, because you know how much I love live music. But aside from that, when I'm crafting time together with friends, I'm intentionally making time and space for conversation.
- [08:41]
B
Yeah, I mean, I certainly like to have conversations, but I'm kind of, as per usual, the opposite of you. Like I was saying, I really love reading the works of Henry Rollins or interviews with him or listening to interviews with him because, like, the way that he talks about himself, like, 90% of it, I'm like, yeah, that's me. And there's a book of his that I'm reading where he's talking about how he doesn't really like he has a couple of old friends and he likes to make Time to see those old friends, sometimes to maintain the relationship. But largely, he doesn't like to socialize just for the sake of socialization. Like, he likes to do the work. He. He's always working. He's like a very busy bee. He's always on a project, and when that project's over, he's on to the next project. Very ADHD classic. And I feel like I'm the same way. Like, I love to have a project with someone, and it doesn't have to be like a formal project, like a podcast. It could just be like we're running errands together or we're going to bake a cake together, or like, you're coming over and we're going wedding dress shopping for your wedding or whatever. Right. I feel like it gives me. I get too much anxiety when it's, like, just open. It's just like a. Like an undefined thing. Like, I remember I had friend at one point say, hey, can I come over to your house for coffee and just to visit you? And I was like, oh, okay. So she came over and I gave her a cup of coffee, and she just sat on the couch and we just, like, talked. And I was like, so. I mean, I was happy to see her, but I was, like, so uncomfortable because I was like, how will I know when this hangout is over? How long is it going for? Are we just talking? Should we. Should we watch a show together? Like, are we doing something else? Like, I don't. It's too vague. But I think that, like, in the structure of, like, okay, we're meeting at 10, you have to go at 3, we're going wedding dress shopping, and maybe we'll grab lunch if we can. It creates a container inside, which I then can relax and get to the socializing because the conversation is going to happen as we do those things. But then I kind of have. I don't have to. I can be more present because I'm not, like, trying to manage those other pieces and being like, I don't know what. What should I be doing with my hands? Like, that's how it feels to me, Dusty.
- [10:37]
A
It is so funny how opposite we are. Because some of my absolute favorite hangs with friends have been those moments where they're impromptu. Like, hey, what are you doing? Nothing. Okay, I'm coming over. And then we sit on my deck. For however long we sit on my deck. There was no plan before. It was just this serendipitous moment where we both had free time. They reached out and it turned Into a really beautiful moment. And I think talking about how this intersects with our adhd. We talked last episode about how our ADHD is different and how I don't like to be in waiting mode or I don't like having time constraints in certain ways can actually be bothersome to me. And so those very open ended interactions actually can feel better to me than we're in this box, we're in this container. That can be uncomfortable for me, I
- [11:32]
B
was just gonna say. But then how do you know when the. How do you know when it's over, though?
- [11:35]
A
Vibes, I guess, or in the case of a friend dropping by, when I know I don't have any other obligations for the day, whenever they have obligations for the day or they decide that they're done, I guess.
- [11:49]
B
Okay, all right. Okay, sorry, Go on.
- [11:51]
A
Dusty, you said something earlier about getting your needs met in friendships. So interestingly enough for me, as far as like social needs go, doing a project together is not the way to fill my social bucket. But I do have this relationship with certain friends of sort of mutual support or mutual need meeting. So I have a couple of friends who just really love to be of service, really love to help out. For no other reason than helping out is a need for them is something that fills their cup.
- [12:22]
B
Here's the thing, right? Like just beyond your favorite flavor of hangout, I think that we can extend this to like getting people with ADHD to think about what makes them feel comfortable and also what fills their cup. Like which kinds of hangouts and with who do you leave and after it's over, you go like, oh, that was awesome. Like, that was such good socializing versus, like, what kind of hangouts and like, with whom do you socialize that it exhausts you. So for example, I had a client who was Audi hd and we started off and he was like kind of just exploring his autism. And we started off having video calls. And very quickly, Asher, it was really interesting, he asked that we move to phone calls because he's like, I can't stop masking with you. He's like, when I'm looking at you, I feel the need to like smile and laugh at your jokes. And when we moved to phone calls, he was able to do what we call flat affect. His tone was very monotone probably his face was very like neutral. And this is a thing that I think you have to cope more with when you are autistic or you're ADHD is like that, that need to like, like respond appropriately with like, oh, ha ha, or smiles or nodding or eye contact. And so, you know, can you cultivate friendships where your friends don't take it the wrong way that you're not looking them in the eye or that you're laying on the floor while they're, like, talking to you and not sitting up and looking at them? Like. Like the small things. Right? Can we cultivate friendships where it's, like, not a big deal if you're fidgeting or if you're. If. If we're doing parallel play, for example, if anybody listening has not heard this term. The idea of parallel play is the idea of, like, okay, you're doing one thing, I'm doing my own thing, but we're doing it together. It comes from, like, I think, like, children's behavioral, developmental stuff. It's like the idea that when kids are really little, they don't really play together. They, like, will play next to each other, each with their own toys. But as neurodivergent adults, sometimes we need this as well. Like, we. It can be very fulfilling if I'm sitting there playing video games and you're sitting there reading a book, and we're, like, getting time together, even if we're not doing the same exact thing, because maybe I don't want to sit and read with you, and maybe you don't like video games and sure, we could do some other third thing, but why can't we both just sit there and do the thing that we enjoy and have that count? Like. So I think something I really want to encourage listeners to do is to think about getting out of this. This box of feeling. Like there's a right way to socialize as an adult, and there's a set of expectations that you have to meet. Certainly do those things if they're fun for you, but what actually fills your tank. So here's. Here's going to be another example where you're going to say exactly the opposite. One of my favorite ways to fill my social tank, and I'm not getting it right now because I'm not traveling to America, is the Chad conference. And I always tell people, like, I leave the Chad conference feeling like my tank is so filled, it lasts me a good half of the year. And here's what it is. I'm never talking to any less than eight people at the same time at the Chad conference. Like, it's just constant. It's like, boom, boom, boom. You're turning around. Hey, how's it going, man? Oh, my God.
- [15:14]
A
Hi.
- [15:14]
B
Oh, my God. Like, hugs. Okay, back to the Conversation. Like, I'm. I'm having eight different conversations at once. Like, constantly. The. The level of socialization and excitement and interaction is very, very, very high. And I really enjoy that because, you know, I think in my life, I've been made to feel like that's kind of something about me that's a bit of a drawback and not a, you know, bonus feature, right. Is like, that I'm. I'm kind of, like, really high energy, and I like to go, like, from switch from conversation to conversation. And so when I'm at the chat conference, I'm around a bunch of people exactly like me who are all like. And then they're like, you know, switching back and forth. And then it's like. And nobody's offended and nobody's mad that the conversation gets interrupted six times in the middle. And that is, like, so good for me. Like, I really, really enjoy it. Even just talking about it, I'm like, oh, like, it's. I love that level of social interaction. But it's interesting because at, like, a house party, I find it gives me anxiety often because I don't know a lot of people that, like, I'm never at a party where I just know everybody, right? But Chad is like a conference. It's like a party where I know everybody, and that's what does it for me. And so knowing that I don't want to have necessarily every single social contact, relationship, or friendship be like that, but I know that that's something that I get out of that conference that's really important for me. And so I think it's important for people to think about, like, what actually makes you feel fulfilled. What kind of hangouts do you leave feeling like, yeah, man, I feel like I got my tank filled. And what was it about that hangout?
- [16:48]
A
Dusty, you're exactly right. I'm gonna say the exact opposite of what you just said. I also find the Chad conference to be a really fulfilling experience. But for me, what fills my cup at that conference is those moments that I get one on one or in small groups with people where I get to connect on a deeper level in a way that I don't get FaceTime with those colleagues any other time of the year, because we're. We're all over the country, all over the world. And I'm thinking in particular, the first time you and I really connected was one of those small groups. It was you, me, and Cam at the hotel bar. And that was really the first time that I got one on one or small group time. With you that I got more than a hi, hello, hug sort of interaction. And that's, I would say, where this friendship started for me. Right. Because we. We connected in that way. That works for me. And to add to that, the type of interaction that you love at the Chad conference is the type of interaction that I have to make sure to, like, moderate around, because that can be really overstimulating for me. Not always. Sometimes it's really, really entertaining to be in a big group of ADHD people who are just doing their ADHD thing. But I also have to regulate notice when I'm getting overstimulated. I always stay at the conference hotel, even though it's more expensive, so that I can go up to my room and take a breather between things and kind of take reset when I do start to feel that overstimulation. So, yeah, that high activity that you love, that part can be overstimulating for me. But those opportunities to connect, and it happens every conference, and I never necessarily intentionally plan. It's not like you and I planned to have drinks this day with Cam. It's just something that organically happened, but that always happens for me. And. And that's what fills my cup in those types of situations. And the same is true in, like, in the queer organizations that I'm in big groups, but I tend to, like, I tend to be the person in a small. In the smaller group within the bigger group that just. That's just my M.O. is I'm not the person standing and talking in the group of 20 people. I'm the person off to the side with the other person who prefers to talk one on one. Because that big group can be really overstimulating.
- [19:07]
B
Yeah. And I think, like, you and I are both people who've done a considerable amount of, like, self reflection. So I guess my question is, like, when you're working with clients, like, how do you encourage clients to navigate friendship challenges? And like, where do you see clients being able to really come into their own and own their identity and find a lot of meaningful rest and rejuvenation in friendships? Like, have you had clients experience that?
- [19:36]
A
Oh, Dusty, that's. That's such a good question. And it's. It varies so much per client. But let's start with the stuff that is the same for most of my clients. The beating yourself up over not answering text messages in a timely fashion or not being as communicative as you'd like to be when working on that type of issue, the reframe that I'm always looking for is how do you want to be showing up? And the type of ongoing text message conversation where there's no urgency in replying. I am absolutely the person that will direct drop the ball for two or three weeks, but I will always pick it back up. I will always eventually remember, oh yeah, oh yeah, I haven't heard from this person in a while and I will look at where the conversation left off and I will pick it back up. And my friends kind of understand that pattern of mine. They understand that if they want to respond sooner than that, they can prompt me. And because I've done my own work, the guilt and shame doesn't get in the way of my engaging with those friendships in a way that works for me. This is just my pattern and that can be okay. So listeners, rather than what's the expectation here? Think about how you want to be showing up and think about how you can regularly show up in a way that works for you. If the expectation is immediate responses always, I'm never going to be that guy. This is back to the birthday thing we started with. I'm always going to feel like I am letting the other person down and like I'm a disappointment. And therefore maybe that's just not the right type of friendship for me. Beyond that, I think it's about understanding yourself, understanding what makes a good friendship for you, understanding that that might look different than other folks. I've had clients who like me, prefer one on one, prefer that more intimate setting and can feel really alienated by group dynamics. And so again, the opportunity there is to reframe like rather than feeling like something is wrong for you, maybe it's okay to just own that you have one really good friend in that group and the group dynamics may not be your thing and may never be your thing. You may not be the person that's invited to all of the group things. I'm certainly not because I'm not super close with everyone in the group. I'm super close with a couple of people in the group. So when those couple of people are the ones spearheading something, that's when I'm included. And when they're not, it's not that I'm being excluded, it's just that those are not close friendships for me and that's okay. And group dynamics are not my thing and that is also okay.
- [22:25]
B
Yeah, I mean again that there's that deep self understanding and I like that, like who do you want to show up as or who do you want to be question. So I have a group of clients who are, who are all in a coaching group together. And I'd say that they've like, like made pretty good friends. And it's interesting because as the coach, I'm always trying to figure out like, what's the value that I'm bringing here, like, how do I help these clients get the most value out of this session. But a big part of the value is just having the space with each other. And there's some members of the group. It's really interesting to see the group dynamics because there's some members who listen more, there's some members who talk more, and you know, there are some members who skew much more negative. Like they really, you know, they're struggling, they have challenges, they kind of need to like venture. And the other group members aren't like brought down by that. They're not like, oh, there's like that person again, such a bummer, right? Like they, they just accept that that's how that person shows up. We have one member who has some, some other like mental health challenges and like some different co occurring, you know, identity stuff. And that person can sometimes have like really big feelings and bring really big feelings to the group. But again, because these people have been working together so long and they know each other really well, if somebody kind of like suddenly gets really overwhelmed or bursts into tears or kind of like shuts down for a bit, like, we just sort of like, like we just like take it in stride and it's like just accepted that like that's this person's way of being. It's not like, you know, there's no, there's no rules. Like everybody just shows up as they are. And a lot of what they get out of the group in addition to the coaching is the value of being able to be there for one another as their authentic selves.
- [23:55]
A
Dusty the last thing I'll add to this and something that I explore with my clients often is to sort of think about where you fall on the introvert extrovert scale. I think people with adhd, we tend to assume that we're extroverts because of how we naturally show up in social situations. Other people see that extroversion in us and reflect that to us, and so we assume that we're extroverts. I assume that for a very long time I consider myself an amnivert. I'm, I'm both. Too much alone time is terrible for me. Too much social time is equally terrible for me. Neither one is great. So considering where you fall there. I actually had a really interesting conversation with a client this week where she's kind of grappling with community and finding her place. There's some identity questions in there, too, but one of the important things that came out of that conversation is her owning her introversion. That community for her, friendships for her are never gonna look like they look what they look like for most people. That most of her closest friends are these old, deep friendships, and that's okay for her. She even said in the session, I'm not necessarily looking to form new friendships right now. And so that awareness and realization sort of helped her let go of a story that she should have more friends, that she should have a different social life than the one that she does have. So, listeners, what are the opportunities today? Number one, we've said this multiple times in this episode. What fills your cup in social interactions? Get curious about. Where do you feel best in social interactions? Where are the social interactions where you feel really good for hours, days, weeks afterwards? That's a great place to look to help you start to be more intentional about crafting the type of social interaction that you like to have and to maybe learn something about the type of social interaction that you'd either like to avoid or minimize. And then, number two, the thing I just said. Are you an introvert? Are you an extrovert? Are you somewhere in between? Do you really know the answer to that question? How much social interaction do you need? What is a good pace or what is right for you? And again, how can you start to put some intention behind having that need met in a way that works for you?
- [26:35]
B
Well said.
- [26:36]
A
So, listeners, until next week, I'm Ash.
- [26:39]
B
And I'm Dusty.
- [26:40]
A
And this was the Translating ADHD podcast. Thanks for listening, Sam.