← Translating ADHD
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- [00:02]
A
Hi, I'm Ash.
- [00:04]
B
And I'm Dusty.
- [00:05]
A
And this is Translating adhd. First off, listeners, apologies for the unplanned two weeks off. We had some ADHD scheduling snafus and decided to just let that be. Okay. But we are back for three more episodes in the month of June before we take our summer break in July and August. And since it's Pride Month, we wanted to lead with something thematic.
- [00:34]
B
And what would that be, Ash?
- [00:35]
A
Dusty, What I want to talk about today is a concept that I've been pulling on both in my professional work and for myself, and that is the term neuroqueer. So this term has been making the rounds for a while in neurodivergent communities. And I think for some of us, it can be a really helpful framework to better understand ourselves. So let's start with, like, a base definition. So neuroqueer, to my understanding, means existing in a way that disrupts heteronormativity and neuronormativity, and it also acknowledges that our neurodivergence impacts our expression of gender and sexuality.
- [01:25]
B
Yeah, it's an interesting concept. It's interesting because we do tend to put identity into, like, little pots. Like, I'm, you know, I'm a person of this race or this culture or this sexuality or this gender or this neurotype. But I. I think it makes sense that, like, in life, these things are messy and. And it's not like each identity piece is discrete. They have an impact on each other. So conceptually, I think it's a very cool concept to acknowledge how. How these. These things play off each other. It's. It's reminding me of another term which is misoguinar. I don't know how to say it, but it's like. Like a hatred of women, but also black people. So, like, black. Like the concept that, like, black women have worse sort of tend to experience more marginalization than just a black person or just a woman. Or similarly, like Trent, the concept of trans misogyny. Right. The idea that trans women are at the. The axis of two separate marginalized identities. And. And this is. These are obviously both quite negative terms, you know, obviously, like, representing something we don't like. But that's kind of the only other place where I've heard, like, two different identity concepts put together. So neuroqueer is nice because it's. It's quite a positive one.
- [02:38]
A
Yeah, Dusty, you really hit the nail on the head there, because this term is really about acknowledging the complicated intersectionality. If you are someone who holds both of these identities. And based on my experience as a coach, not all neurodivergent people are neuroqueer or would necessarily identify as neuroqueer. I've had many clients throughout the years who a life that fits for them. Even being a neurodivergent person and needing to learn how to navigate the world differently as a neurodivergent person is relatively heteronormative. And that's okay. But I also, on the flip side, want to say that you don't necessarily have to be a gender or sexual minority to identify with the term neuroqueer. And we're going to get into more of that later in this episode. But really the idea behind today's episode is to just introduce this term as a potential framework to better self understanding. We've talked about ADHD and identity on this show many times before. That is at the heart of the work that I do. And for some of my clients, clients, examining identity through the lens of neuro queerness can be really revealing in terms of identity.
- [03:55]
B
Yeah, you know, as you were talking, something else that occurred to me that that might be salient here is like, so it's, it's Pride month and Facebook is a cesspool. And so like, I don't know what's going on lately, but Facebook is showing me all these posts from groups and, and like people being, you know, super homophobic and stuff, as they always are during Pride month. But something that occurs to me is like when we talk about people who are neuro queer, like who are, who are expressing themselves not just through their, their gender and their sexuality, but through neurodivergence. I do think there's something here around the fact that like, how do I say this? I feel like maybe it's the neuro queer people who are making up that larger proportion of people that like the haters are hating on. And let me explain what I'm saying, right? One of the things we, we know about some, some autistic people have been given a hard time for like having what might be considered like childish interests, right? Like some autistic adults, you know, whether they're sort of low support needs, medium support needs, high support needs, they'll sort of get like flack for maybe having like, you know, childish interests in, or, or childish expression, right? Like that they like really colorful colors or, you know what I mean? And so if you combine that, like being queer, I feel like when I, when I think of neuro queerness, I do think of the people who are like More like, more open to expressing themselves in really alternative ways with their aesthetic, you know, like in the neurodivergent community, we also know that there's a link between like neurodivergence and stuff like binge eating or weight management, right? So when you think of that sort of like traditional, like fat dyke with the collar or whatever, right? Like the really way that some people might see that person really pejoratively and then some people might be like, yeah, live your best past life, right? Like, but that real visual representation of queerness, fat bodies, colorful expression, maybe like enjoying having accessories that like some people might find childish, right? Like these two identities are gonna come together in a way that like make that person more visible, I guess, is what I'm saying. You know what I mean? I can see how that might kind of make neuroqueers sort of part of the bigger population of what the haters be hating on, you know what I mean? I feel like the neuroqueers are the ones that are like, yeah, like let's, let's really rock an alternative looking identity. So I don't know necessarily where I'm going with that, but like, I feel like, I feel like what you're saying is important because certainly I know people who are nerdivergent and gay and neither of those are like the biggest part of their identity and they're like just, you know, they're just business casual. But I feel like the neuroqueers are the ones that are like, you know, really kind of repping, I guess.
- [06:34]
A
Dusty, I agree with your observation. My queer community here locally is largely neuro queer. And that is part of what I really love about it. Because community is a need that comes up for almost all of my clients, even if it's not something they name is a need. When we do values and needs, it is something that I think as neurodivergent people we all need. We all have this need to be understood, to have people around us who get us when we're being our most authentic selves. And so for me, neuro queer community has helped me in my queer journey to better understand myself by a giving me a comfortable place in terms of neurodivergence. Obviously coming into my own queerness as a person who eats, sleeps, lives and breathes neurodivergence was already instantly comfortable in this community, but also help me sort of learn and figure out some things about who I am, identity wise. So yes, I think you're hitting the nail on the head there. I. We got so Much more to do. We got to move on from this.
- [07:50]
B
Oh, but I just wanted. I, I figured out what my point was. If you said okay, because you said it's about like you, when you say neuro queer is about disrupt. Disrupting that word disruption, I think makes a lot of sense to me because, like, with a neurodivergent identity and with a queer identity, you know, you've probably spent your whole life maybe not feeling like you can be your fullest self. And when those two identities play on each other, I think, yeah, we get maybe that like, big, bold expression that is really disruptive to homophobic people and, like, attracts a lot of negative attention from people who are, like, uncomfortable with it. But, like, it's so, so important for a person who's marginalized in two different ways to be able to, like, own both identities at once and have them, like, ricocheting off each other.
- [08:31]
A
Exactly, Dusty. And I think it's also important to call out you. You sort of called out knowing people who are LGBTQ who may not identify as or fall into neuro queerness. And that is also true. Right? Not every gender or sexual minority is neuroqueer, even if they are, again, neurodivergent. It's sort of, where does this identity fall for you? How disruptive is it in terms of what is normative and how does that impact your experience in terms of marginalization? That's put so well. So now I want to pivot and sort of talk about some of the uniquely ADHD things, because a lot of the discourse around neuro queerness is related to autistic people. The studies that are out there that are showing correlations between neurodivergence and being LGBTQ are largely studying autistic people. And the prevailing theory there is that correlation is maybe not necessarily because of neurodivergence. Like neurodivergence isn't the cause of quote, unquote queerness, but rather that autistic people are less likely to understand or conform to social norms and expectations. So more likely than to realize and vocalize non normative identities. Which, in my experience of autistic people in queer spaces is very true, anecdotal, evidence wise. I think that that's a sound theory. But now let's talk about ADHD and put that in the mix because that's, that's less studied and less well understood. One of my primary focuses as a coach is identity work. Better understanding oneself and one's identities. And so I've had a lot of experience with queer People who have ADHD and their relationship to queerness because of adhd. And I think. And my observation is this. We all have complicated relationships with queerness. We all, Every single queer person, anybody who is using the label queer to identify themselves. And by the way, not all LGBTQ people are comfortable being called queer. Let's make that really clear. I identify as queer. Not every gender or sexual minority identifies as queer, and that is okay. But for those that do identify as queer and lean into queerness, I think we all have to identify and unlearn ways that we've masked normativity, whatever our neurotype is. I think the uniquely ADHD thing is that we don't always know we're wearing the mask. And that is at the crux of how I lived 38 years without knowing who I was is I did not realize the number of masks that I was wearing. I did not realize the ways in which I was conforming to rules that I didn't necessarily believe in without being aware of that. And interestingly enough, in hindsight, I had all of the pieces to the puzzle about who I was. Everything was there. It's a combination of that. That ADHD nature. We have these brains that are searchable but not indexable. So sometimes we're behaving in ways that we don't even realize what the motivation for that behavior is. We don't realize that we're holding on to somebody else's rules or norms or stories. We're just reacting to the emotion in the moment without knowing what. What the bigger picture is behind that. And also kind of the nurture thing of adhd, where we have this experience over and over again of letting people down, of being told that we're wrong, of being told that we're lazy, of being told that we're this. And so we start to, again, oftentimes without realizing it, to adapt and conform, to avoid that pain. And so something I do notice with people with adhd, and this is. This is kind of across the board, this is with people who are newly out. I've had some clients who have been out for a very long time who still didn't know a lot about their queer identities, who still had some work to do in terms of unpacking that and better understanding themselves, is that, yeah, we can be wearing the mask without realizing we're wearing the mask. And you and I see that in our coaching work all the time relative to any number of topics, not just queerness, but that can certainly make an ADHD person's relationship with queerness bumpier in terms of A, identifying and B, figuring out who we are.
- [13:18]
B
Yeah, that's. It's really. It's interesting to think about how that. How that journey looks different for somebody who is just autistic or maybe ADHD versus a person who has adhd. Because you're right. Like, again, it comes back to this idea that, like, we still have social differences, but how our social differences show up are different depending on the type of neurodivergence you have. And I was gonna say, like, yeah, you're, you know, you working largely in this piece around identity with clients. I'm sure it comes up all the time.
- [13:47]
A
It does. Dusty. And so what. What do we do with this? And so I'm gonna. I'm gonna pivot here. We're gonna work with two different definitions of neuroqueer for the remainder of this episode to sort of highlight for listeners how you might use this framework to examine what might be true for you. So the first one is neuroqueer can refer to people who are both neurodivergent and queer with some degree of conscious awareness and. Or active exploration around how these two aspects of one's being intertwine and interact. And so I have a few ADHD specific related examples for this. The first being ADHD and identity. My experience in coaching is the farther one's context is from one's identity as a person with adhd, the harder it can be to understand oneself. Not every client I have worked with over the years is somebody who doesn't know themselves. I've had clients who know exactly who they are, but that is because their context has allowed them to figure out and lean into a life that fits naturally. For those of us whose context kind of flies in the face of who we are, that can leave us with a lot of questions and not a lot of answers in terms of identity as people with adhd. Again, that, like, that's searchable but not indexable. It's so hard to know oneself with adhd. It's hard to separate what it is that we stand for and believe in and what we're carrying around unconsciously and reacting to unconsciously that we're not even aware of. And so couple those identity questions with ADHD natural curiosity. And in terms of queerness, you get the concept of micro labels. So micro labels for those who don't understand the term, sort of break gender or sexuality down into smaller, more discrete definitions. So, for example, I consider myself demiromantic. I don't fall for people Easily. I've only had two significant relationships in my entire 40 years, despite the opportunity to have many more. Because I need to feel a very strong and certain type of connection with somebody to develop any sort of romantic feelings. Like I don't, I don't crush on people in a romantic way and I don't experience romantic feelings that often. Now if I'm talking to a colleague at the Chad conference or something, I'm not going to describe myself as demiromantic, but this is a term that has helped me better understand myself and who I am. And micro labels in general can be, I use them all the time in coaching. Can be a really helpful way to examine what is true for you as a person with ADHD when it is sometimes so hard to understand ourselves and why we are the way that we are. So another one I thought of is ADHD and novelty and we've actually covered this before because we did an episode on Flexible Frameworks where we talked about non monogamy. We did an episode on Kink and both of those things absolutely tie into the ADHD brain's love of novelty. Right? So I live a non monogamous existence. I live a kinky existence and I recognize and here's the intersectionality, here's what makes it neuroqueer that it is both my ADHD and my ADHD brain's love of novelty and my queerness that makes those things a life that fits for me.
- [17:36]
B
Oh yeah, you can't separate them out.
- [17:40]
A
Exactly, exactly. And then the last one, and this is by no means an exhaustive list, these are the things that I sketched up based on my experience as a neuroqueer person. So this is not intended to be, these are the only ways. These are just some examples of how ADHD specific neuro queerness might play out or might might look like for someone. And so the last for me is ADHD and the types of relationships I have. So even my non neuroqueer clients describe disliking shallow or surface level relationships. There's this natural ADHD tendency that our friendships are deep or they're nothing, they don't tend to exist in a middle ground. And I find that to be pretty universally true for my clients with adhd, neuroqueer or not. So add neuroqueerness to this, right? A life that fits being non neuronormative, non heteronormative and you end up with atypical relationships. The best term I could think to use this is the set of queer platonic relationships that are more than friendships, but not necessarily romantic relationships in the traditional sense, where a group of us has come together as this powerful form of chosen family. And this is not just happenstance like we. This has been a process of making explicit agreements with one another, slash having the experience of showing up for one another, slash leaning into this more like, these people are my first, second and third phone calls if I need something, if there's some emergency. And as a person with adhd, I lean on them for ADHD specific support. So again, there's the, there's the queerness in terms of these very atypical relationships that are sort of hard to describe in a half an hour long episode. And the neurodivergence that a big part of the mutual support and benefit I receive for the effort that I put into these relationships and is to support me as a person with ADHD is to help me fill in those particular gaps for myself. And not every one of these person, there's four of us, one adhd, two autistics, and I am the sole ADHD only person in this, in this group of people. And so it's not even a group of all ADHD people, but a large part of the support that I receive is relative to my ADHD and my needs as an ADHD person.
- [20:27]
B
That is very cool. I like that you found the, the particular. Like, I like that there's sort of little tinkering you can do and like adaptations. And I think you're right. If you're neurodivergent, you're probably used to doing things in an atypical way or having atypical communication styles or atypical interests. So you might have already felt really othered just naturally as far as how your brain perceives reality and engages everything day to day. And then certainly from a identity or gender or sexual standpoint, if your experience is not that of like the majority or the norm, you're gonna be experiencing a lot of feelings about yourself from all directions as just being like very other or very different. So I think this label of neuroqueer certainly, like I've noticed that people are really, really enthusiastic about it. Like it's a concept that really resonates with a lot of people. Yeah.
- [21:22]
A
And so now let's take the other definition. This definition says neuroqueer means embodying and expressing one's neurodivergence in ways that also queer one's performance of gender, sexuality, ethnicity and or other aspects of one's identity. And so I said at the start of the episode that one does not have to be a gender or sexual minority in order to identify with the term neuroqueer. And so the two examples I'm going to give here are people who fall into that category, both clients of mine. So the first is a person who self describes is a cisgender heterosexual male, but he presents in very atypical ways. He paints his nails, he has long hair, he dresses very colorfully. He would absolutely fit right in, slash, be, quote unquote normative, if there is such a thing in a neuro queer setting. And part of our exploration of this is sort of recognizing that two things can be true, that he can identify in these ways and still feel very at home in neuro queer spaces. Right. And this is by the way, is why I'm an advocate for queer spaces should include everyone because you, you never know why someone else is there or why someone else finds community there. But it shouldn't be about what you identify as. It should be about if these are your people, then you're in the right place however you identify. Right. And his journey to get here is really interesting. It kind of started with the 2016 election and some realizations on his part about patriarchy and the oppressive systems that we live in that he hadn't been exposed to in the same ways that a visibly queer person might be exposed to, but in ways that had his attention and made him realize that he wanted to show up differently. He felt compelled to show up differently and leaning into the outward expression of that in ways that feel good for him. Right. The expression isn't performance, it's leaning into this is what feels good and right for me. Alongside I reject these standards of normativity and I'm leaning into that. Does that make sense?
- [23:44]
B
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
- [23:46]
A
And then the other client self describes as a cisgender heterosexual woman and her presentation is pretty typically feminine. Meaning if you passed her on the street, you wouldn't necessarily even as a queer person because we, we have radar for that, that, that others don't. You wouldn't necessarily look at her and see her in some sort of quote unquote queer way. But she has an incredibly complicated relationship with gender because she's gender non conforming in other ways. She's not American, she's, she's from another country. And so much of her being is incredibly atypical for women in her society. The things that she's interested in, the way that she lives her life, they're just very, very outside of the norm. So much so that she struggled throughout her life to have close female friends and tends to have more male friends. And that's not because she's discriminating in any way. It's because she's often discriminated against by other women for failing to perform gender in the correct way. So again, somebody who's not a gender or sexual minority in terms of how they identify. But I think the, the uniting thread with both of these clients is people who experience that same sort of othering whose very existence is disruptive, certainly qualifies them to fall under that neuro queer umbrella.
- [25:27]
B
Yeah, I think that the concept of queerness, you know, I'm not, I'm not. There's so much more reading and studying and understanding the history of queer theory that I could do. But, like, it is its whole own theory. And this concept of, like, queerness, not just as an identity or a thing that you are, but a thing that you do, like an action, a verb, like queering things is so interesting. And again, like, I think neurodivergent people who are already used to operating outside social norms because they can't always operate inside social norms even when they want to, or they may just naturally do things in an unusual way. Sort of like the perfect target audience, I think, for like, being able to embrace the concept of queering as a verb and like, and leverage it to just like, live in a way that feels more authentic for them and maybe also more disruptive for the status quo. Love that.
- [26:19]
A
Really well said, Dusty. And I think actually a nice point in which to end this episode. So once again, happy Pride month, everybody. And until next week, I'm Ash. And I'm Dusty and this was the Translating ADHD podcast. Thanks for listening.