S7 Ep 11 - Taylor Era by Era

Summary

True Fiction Project – S7 Ep 11: “Taylor Era by Era”

Host: Reenita Hora
Guest: Caroline Sullivan (UK-based music journalist & author)
Episode Date: April 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the work and process behind Era by Era, Caroline Sullivan’s unauthorized biography of Taylor Swift. Host Reenita Hora delves into Sullivan’s background as a celebrated pop music journalist and her approach to capturing the essence of global superstar Taylor Swift through extensive research, sharp wit, and British humor. The conversation ranges from the mechanics of unauthorized biographies to anecdotes about Swift’s career and activism, punctuated by a live reading from Sullivan's book.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Caroline Sullivan’s Background and Path to Pop Biography Writing

• Sullivan started as a passionate music fan in her youth, attending concerts and eventually writing for prominent British music outlets like Melody Maker and The Guardian, where she was chief rock critic.
• Her first book, Bye Bye: My Tragic Love Affair with the Bay City Rollers, was inspired by her teenage fandom and is being adapted for TV. Success with this led publishers to offer her other pop biographies.
  • [03:26] Caroline: "When I was a kid, I always absolutely loved music more than anybody else in my class. ... When I moved to London in the 80s, I was able to write a column for an American magazine... Then that led to writing for Melody Maker... Then that led to writing for the Guardian... and the Bay City Rollers book came about at the end of the 90s."

Unauthorized Biographies: Definitions & Rules

• An unauthorized biography means the author doesn’t have the subject’s official participation or approval ("all you're really lacking is meeting the actual pop star") but can still draw on published materials and conversations with professional contacts (PR teams, etc.)
• Legal limitations: Cannot quote song lyrics without paying for rights; can only use song titles.
  • [04:38] Caroline: "As long as you don't pretend... that you've actually spoken to them, you're basically fine... It's the research that kills you because it takes weeks and weeks and weeks."

Sullivan’s Signature Writing Style

• Unlike formulaic, dry biographies, Sullivan injects personal style, making her work engaging and occasionally humorous, often via subtle, dry British wit rather than outright comedy.
  • [07:16] Caroline: "It's more that I've approached certain parts of her history with a kind of dry humor... I just tried to get a flavor of my own sense of humor into things."

The Genesis of “Era by Era” & Its Standout Qualities

• The book was commissioned thanks to Sullivan’s previous work, notably a Dua Lipa biography for the same publisher.
• Released during a crowded season of Swift books (mid-2024), Era by Era nonetheless soared to #2 on the Sunday Times bestseller list, selling 50,000 copies—Sullivan’s commercial breakthrough.
  • [09:24] Caroline: "Well, considering that every other publisher last June also brought out a book about Taylor Swift, I think that it's really good that mine has done so well because it had so much competition."
• Sullivan’s approach distinguished the book: “It was kind of like writing just a very, very long music feature because I do put my personality into my feature writing.”
  • [10:17] Caroline: “I read one of [the other pop biographies], and it was just the most boring, depressing thing I’d ever read. ...I thought, well, I’m not gonna do that.”

Favorite Discoveries about Taylor Swift

• Sullivan enjoyed the hindsight for her afterword, viewing the Eras Tour in full context.
• She uncovered many lesser-known details, such as the correct pronunciation of Travis Kelce's last name (“Kelse,” not “Kelsey”)—a detail appreciated by readers immersed in Swift’s world.
  • [11:11] Caroline: “His name’s Travis Kelce, and everybody pronounces his name Kelsey. And I know for a fact, because I’ve heard him say it, it’s Kelse, not Kelsey. ...I feel like I’m doing the readers a favor that they won’t mispronounce Kelsey.”

Taylor’s Music Activism and Industry Impact

• Swift’s high-profile battles for artist rights (e.g., against Spotify and over her master recordings), and her admirable openness and candor, are highlighted.
  • [13:27] Caroline: “I have a gigantic amount of respect for her. She’s one of the most intelligent musicians I have ever come across... She has bought the rights to her first six albums back. ...She really does work for other musicians.”
• Swift’s journey recouping her masters sets an industry standard and is framed as being done for the greater good, not just herself.
  • [14:46] Reenita: “But what Taylor’s done is something different. ...She’s actually working for everyone else... And I think that’s amazing.”

Taylor and Her Mother: Their Unique Bond

• Taylor’s close relationship with her mother Andrea has evolved; while Andrea no longer manages every aspect, she remains Taylor’s closest confidante and sounding board—an unusually strong mother-daughter dynamic.
  • [15:38] Caroline: “Her mother accompanies her on tour all the time... They have the kind of relationship most girls have with a friend. It’s actually really extraordinary.”

A Personal Anecdote: Host's Brush with Taylor

• Reenita shares how her daughter was once picked backstage by Andrea Swift at a Taylor concert in Hong Kong after winning a “hair swish” contest—a memorable moment reinforcing Taylor and her mother’s outreach to fans.
  • [17:01] Renita: “So that’s the closest we’ve ever gotten to Taylor Swift or Andrea.”

International Relevance

• The book’s rights were acquired in India—a reflection of Swift’s global appeal and reach—even as the Eras tour concluded.

Sullivan’s Social Media

• On X: @TheCSullivan (as “VC Sullivan”)
• Instagram: @carolinesullivan2

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Memorable Quotes by Timestamp

• On Unauthorized Biographies:
  [00:38] Caroline: “All you're really lacking is meeting the actual pop star. The other permissions, there really aren't any. As long as you don't pretend... that you've actually spoken to them, you're basically fine generally.”

• On Writing Style:
  [06:18] Caroline: “You’re not really allowed to put yourself into the story, but the flavor of your writing can definitely be in the story... I’ve made it funny, as well as funny as I could.”

• On Taylor’s Activism:
  [13:27] Caroline: “She really is, I think, a really admirable person because she really does work for other musicians.”

• On Taylor’s Mother:
  [15:38] Caroline: “Her mother accompanies her on tour all the time... But basically, they have the kind of relationship most girls have with a friend.”

• On Book’s Success:
  [09:24] Caroline: “It’s really good that mine has done so well because it had so much competition.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:30] Introduction to unauthorized biography writing
• [03:06] Sullivan’s career journey in music journalism
• [04:38] What makes a biography “unauthorized”
• [07:16] Infusing humor and personality into biographies
• [08:35] Commission to write Era by Era & sales success
• [10:17-10:54] Distinguishing Era by Era from other Swift biographies
• [11:11] Favorite discoveries: Travis Kelce pronunciation
• [13:27-14:46] Taylor Swift’s artist rights activism
• [15:38] The Taylor-Andrea relationship
• [17:01] Host’s personal Taylor/Andrea encounter
• [18:29] Caroline shares social media info
• [19:59-22:25] Caroline Sullivan reads from the “Era by Era” afterword

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Notable Reading: Book Excerpt (Afterword)

• [19:59-22:25]
  Sullivan reads about the grand finale of the Eras Tour in Vancouver, the phenomenon of “listening only” tickets with no view, the media’s minute-by-minute coverage, and reflections on Swift’s plans post-tour. Sullivan’s dry wit and detail—like dissecting the meaning of Taylor’s “T” thigh chain at the 2025 Grammys—highlight her engaging narrative voice:

  “A number of people who paid $16.50 each to sit behind the stadium stage—sold as listening only tickets—they offered no view of the show. Amazing. No view of the show. And people still bought the tickets.”
  — Caroline Sullivan, [20:06]

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Final Thoughts

This wide-ranging episode gives a behind-the-scenes look into the making of an unauthorized biography, capturing both the challenges and the art involved. Sullivan’s wit, thorough research, and personal connection to music journalism shine, while her ability to distill Taylor Swift’s multifaceted persona—artist, activist, public figure—offers listeners both entertainment and insight into the ongoing cultural impact of the “Taylor Era.”

Transcript

[Caroline Sullivan]

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[Renita Hora]

What is an unauthorized biography and how do you go about writing one? It cannot be easy when you don't have the permissions.

[Caroline Sullivan]

All you're really lacking is meeting the actual pop star. The other permissions, there really aren't any. As long as you don't pretend when you're writing the book that you've actually spoken to them, you're basically fine generally. So it's almost like writing a story about a very famous person whose music you really like. You research it really thoroughly.

[Announcer]

Welcome to the Tru Fiction Project, a podcast series that explores the origins of fiction. Every week we begin with an interview nonfiction followed by a creative piece, fiction inspired by something from the interview. The idea is to demonstrate, of course, that fiction is born out of our life experiences. Now here's your host, storyteller, author, public speaker, health and wellness expert, Renita Hora.

[Renita Hora]

Welcome back to the True Fiction Project. I am your host, Renita Hora and I have with me today Caroline Sullivan. She is a UK based music journalist. Something that I absolutely love because as you all know, music is something that I devour. Who doesn't? And what I love about Caroline specifically is that she has written a whole slew of books, many of them my favorite artists. I'm very excited to talk with her today about her latest book. It's an unauthorized biography of Taylor Swift called Era by Era. Hi Caroline. Welcome to the True Fiction Project.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Hi Renita, how are you? And thank you for having me.

[Renita Hora]

Well, thank you so much for being a guest on the show and let's launch right into it. You've written six books or six plus books.

[Caroline Sullivan]

I have written six books. Five of them are about specific pop stars. I have done Madonna, Ed Sheeran, Adele, Dua, Lipa and Taylor. So all pretty big pop stars. But the one that people talk about the most is my very first book which was about my tragic love affair with the Bay City Rollers when I was a kid. And it's called Bye Bye My Tragic Love Affair with the Bay City Rollers. And that's currently been optioned for a TV series, so hopefully it will be on your screens one of these days.

[Renita Hora]

That is just very intriguing and sounds like we should be doing another recording for a whole different show just to talk about that. Definitely want to do that. But is that what sort of led to all of this interest of yours in writing about pop stars? How did that come about?

[Caroline Sullivan]

Well, when I was a kid, I always absolutely loved music more than anybody else in my class. I was always the one going to big concerts in New York City, where my friends didn't want to do any of that. And when I moved to London in the 80s, I was able to write a column for an American magazine. I'm giving you the short version of this, by the way, not the long version. I was able to write a column which then led to writing for Melody Maker, which is a really big important music paper in the uk. Then that led to writing for the Guardian, which is an even bigger, very important paper in the uk, became their chief rock critic, and the Bay City Rollers book came about at the end of the 90s. And after that I kind of. I was offered other books to do because you know what it's like, Renita. You have a success with one thing and suddenly people love you. So why didn't they love me before?

[Renita Hora]

Too true. But an unauthorized biography. So five of your books are unauthorized biographies of pop Scots? Explain to us what is an unauthorized biography and how do you go about writing one? It cannot be easy when you don't have the permissions, right?

[Caroline Sullivan]

All you're really lacking is meeting the actual pop storm. So the other permissions, there really aren't any. As long as you don't pretend when you're writing the book that you've actually spoken to them, you're basically fine, generally. So you basically. It's almost like writing a story about a very famous person whose music you really like. You research it really thoroughly. I mean, it's. The research is the worst bit I can tell you. Writing it is nothing. It's the research that kills you because it takes weeks and weeks and weeks. I mean, you write your own books, so you know what it's like. But they're fiction, aren't they? So.

[Renita Hora]

So the process, the source material is anything that's been published and is that right? This is what I'm guessing, yeah.

[Caroline Sullivan]

So if I happen to know somebody who was, say, at Taylor's record company or one of her PR people, and they agreed to speak to me, I would be allowed to quote them as long as they said I could. I could say I've spoken to this person who does her pr, but I could not say I've spoken to Taylor. Oh, the other thing is, which you might not know, you cannot quote their song lyrics because you would have to pay for permission to do that. So you can quote the titles, but you can't quote even two words from a song lyric. I mean, you're allowed to do that in newspaper reviews, but not in a book.

[Renita Hora]

I see. So do your books include yourself, you. Your perspective? Are they sort of memoirs of you with a view to this particular pop artist or not at all?

[Caroline Sullivan]

You ask good questions. You're not really allowed to get yourself to put yourself into the story, but the flavor of your writing can definitely be in the story. I mean, I have seen too many unauthorized biographies of people where it's really bland. Like Taylor was born here and she grew up here and then she became a pop star. But you are allowed to flavor the writing. Just make it something that you would be proud of writing. And so that's what I've done. And I've made it funny as well as funny as I could.

[Renita Hora]

So tell us about that. Tell us about era by era, anything that you can. Anything that you would like us to know about the book. And how have you made it funny? Because it is what it is. You know, in your research, the newspaper article, whatever it was. How do you turn that into comedy? Or maybe that's too unfair a question. Maybe it's not comedy, but it's funny.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Well, it's more that I've approached certain parts of her history with a kind of dry humor. It's not like laugh out loud comedy. But for instance, she spent a lot of her childhood, she lived in this really affluent town in Pennsylvania before she went to Nashville. And I saw pictures of her house and it's one of those really kind of Hollywood style mansions in Pennsylvania with like marble floo and gold leaf everywhere. And I said something about how it was really subtle, which obviously it wasn't. It was incredibly unsubtle. You know, I just said it was really subtle and really welcoming. But of course it wasn't subtle and welcoming at all. It was big and really glamorous. So that's how I tried to. I just tried to get a flavor of my own sense of humor into things.

[Renita Hora]

Absolutely. So applying the British humor here, seeing as you have transplanted yourself from New York to the uk to the uk,

[Caroline Sullivan]

where I am sitting right now.

[Renita Hora]

Wonderful, wonderful. So Taylor Swift. I mean, what specifically interested you about her? I mean, of course, even as I asked that question, what is not interesting about Taylor Swift to every Swiftie who's by default a Swiftie, you know, on this planet. But I'd love to hear your version, your story.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Do you know the reason I was asked to do it? I mean, I did not pitch this book. The publishing company came to me because I had done a Dua Lipa book for them a couple of months before, and this was in November of 2023. The eras tour was underway. It was coming to the UK in June of 2024. So the publishing company said, would you be interested in doing a Taylor Swift book, same as Dua Lipa? And I was like, oh, I suppose I could be persuaded. And honestly, if I'd known how grueling the work was going to be, I might have thought twice. But I am very, very glad I did it. I got it in under before my deadline, and it came out in June of last year and it has sold 50,000 copies.

[Renita Hora]

Amazing. Amazing.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Fantastic.

[Renita Hora]

I mean, of course, I'm not surprised, but go ahead.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Well, considering that every other publisher last June also brought out a book about Taylor Swift, I think that it's really good that mine has done so well because it had so much competition. So I was really thrilled to see that, because I've never actually had a proper bestseller before it even got to number two. I mean, I don't know if you know the Sunday Times in England, but. Oh, you do? Of course. You're sort of connected to the UK through India, aren't you? So it got to number two in the Sunday Times top 10 bestsellers list. And that was really amazing. I'd never had it before.

[Renita Hora]

Truly amazing. And congratulations for that, because that is a tough list to just be on and certainly climb the ranks of what is it about era by era that makes it stand out as compared to these other Taylor Swift books?

[Caroline Sullivan]

Well, to answer that, I'll just quickly say, before I started, the publishers said, do you want me to send you any other Taylor Swift books that are out at the moment? And I said, okay, you know, just so I can have a look. And I read one of them, and it was just the most boring, depressing thing I'd ever read. It honestly was just like I told you, you know, she was born here, she went to school here, she's really fam. We love her. And I thought, well, I'm not gonna do that. So it was kind of like writing just a very, very long music feature because I do put my personality into my feature writing. Amazing.

[Renita Hora]

Yep.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Thank you.

[Renita Hora]

So what is your favorite part about this particular book? Any stories or anecdotes you want to share? And what have you learned about Taylor Swift that you didn't know already or that we perhaps might not know?

[Caroline Sullivan]

Well, my favorite part, I would have to say, is it's the part that I'm going to read later on in this broadcast. It's the afterword, which was after the Eras tour had finished. And I wrote an additional chapter after it finished. And that was my favorite because I could now look back at her and see I had much better perspective looking back at the. The tour when it finished. As for what I learned about her, I learned so much stuff that I hadn't known because I wasn't like a massive Swiftie. I was someone who liked her music but wasn't a gigantic Swifty. I saw her play once in London in 2009 and that was it. I'd never seen her since over here. And oh my God, there were so many things. Just how she got her record deal and how she met various boyfriends. And also, do you know her current boyfriend, the football player? Well, she's got a boyfriend who's a football player on the Kansas City Chiefs. And something I learned through my research. His name's Travis Kelce, and everybody pronounces his name Kelsey. And I know for a fact, because I've heard him say it, it's Kelse, not Kelsey. And I wrote that in the book, pronounced Kelsey. And I feel like I'm doing the readers a favor that they won't mispronounce Kelsey.

[Renita Hora]

Well, Taylor Swift is very interesting, not only because she makes this amazing music and has fans literally all over the world. I mean, I know Americans who will fly to Europe to watch her concerts.

[Caroline Sullivan]

And vice versa.

[Renita Hora]

And vice versa, exactly. But she's one of these artists who has also really stood up for the rights of other pop artists in the industry in general. I mean, with a whole sort of standing against Spotify, taking royalties that were undue, etc. So much to be admired about for a whole slew of things. Is there anything just from her, let's say, let's call it music activism, that part of her life that we don't know about or don't know so much about that we should.

[Caroline Sullivan]

I have a gigantic amount of respect for her. She's one of the most intelligent musicians I have ever come across. But what she does is she is so open about everything that it's hard to imagine there's anything we don't know about. Anything important, I think. She's not Generation Z, is she? She's the one before the Millennials, isn't she? So. But she's always had a social media. She's grown up sharing her feelings. Okay. So I think she's basically told us about almost everything professionally. But you know, of course, that she has bought the rights to her first six albums back. Were you aware of that?

[Renita Hora]

I was not aware of that. I mean, but it sounds completely plausible.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Yes. I mean, she had this terrible falling out with the owner of her record company, and that guy sold her music to a guy called Scooter Braun, a music manager who Taylor hated. And she has spent about five years trying to buy her own music back. She finally did it a couple of weeks ago. But she really is, I think, really admirable person because she really does work for other musicians.

[Renita Hora]

She does, yeah.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Yes. And I feel as though she feels she is so fortunate that she wants to share her luck with everyone.

[Renita Hora]

And I think you've touched on a point that really and truly stands her apart. I mean, this idea of the musician got shafted by the record label and they're trying to buy back their rights and it goes on for years. I mean, that's not a new one. This is a pattern that seems to exist in the industry time immemorial, but oftentimes it comes out of this idea of, it's mine, therefore I should have it. But what Taylor's done is something different. She's setting an example for everyone else. And not only is she setting, but she's actually working for everyone else, to your point. And I think that's amazing. And I must ask you, I mean, I do know that a lot of her early career, at least in her early life, was very much influenced by and managed by her mother. Is that still the case? Did that change?

[Caroline Sullivan]

She is extremely close to her mother, Andrea. Her mother accompanies her on tour all the time. I think what she and Andrea now have isn't so much mom running her career as just. She uses mom as a sounding board and she runs past every decision to her mother. But I don't think her mother really tells her what to do now. But basically they have the kind of relationship most girls have with a friend. It's actually really extraordinary. I mean, are you that close to your mother?

[Renita Hora]

Well, I definitely have mother issues and daughter issues, which means that my daughter has mother issues. And so.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Well, I mean, I remember, you know, my Mom, I mean, she's passed away now, I'm sorry to say, but I never told her the really, really personal stuff because I didn't want her to know. And Taylor shares everything with her mother. I mean.

[Renita Hora]

Yes, well, I feel like at some point in my life had a very special moment of bonding with Taylor Swift and her mot because years ago in Hong Kong, I paid through my nose to get front row tickets or very close up to the stage for my daughter and there was a hair swishing situation, contest of some sort and Taylor Swift's mother picked her amongst five other hair swishers to go backstage, so.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Oh, your daughter?

[Renita Hora]

My daughter. Your daughter, yeah. So that's the closest. That is the closest we've ever gotten to Taylor Swift or Andrea.

[Caroline Sullivan]

So when she went, you went with her?

[Renita Hora]

Oh, no, no, no. I'm just the person who pays for the tickets.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Oh my God, that is amazing.

[Renita Hora]

Yes, yes. So. So there was that. And then I discovered you. To be perfectly honest, through my publishing company in India, we share the same publisher who bought the rights to your book for India, and that's how this conversation came about. So I, from what I understand, Taylor Swift is headed there this year and I wonder if that's what sparked the interest in having your book on Indian bookshelves.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Ah, well, this I didn't know because I thought the ERAS tour is finished. I wouldn't imagine. Well, she's certainly not going there to play. Okay, but she might be, I don't know, doing a TV or something like that. I mean, what might she be doing, do you think?

[Renita Hora]

Not sure, but whatever it is, I'm looking forward to it.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Yes. How often do you get back to India?

[Renita Hora]

Oh, not often enough. Not often enough. Once or twice a year.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Right, right.

[Renita Hora]

Caroline, we are really looking forward to your reading an excerpt from your book. But before we do, let us know where we can find you website, socials, anything else you'd like to share.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Okay, well, I'm on X under VC Sullivan. T H E Capital C Sullivan. That's me on X. And I am on Instagram, Caroline Sullivan 2. And I'm also on Facebook.

[Renita Hora]

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining us today on the True Fiction Project. I cannot wait to listen to your read. That was Caroline Sullivan. She is a UK based music journalist and author of a book on Taylor Swift called Era by An Unauthorized Biography. And now we're going to hear her read an excerpt, so stay tuned.

[Announcer]

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[Renita Hora]

And now to the premise of the True Fiction project, which of course is to create fiction out of non fiction.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Taylor Swift Era by era the unofficial biography the Eras tour closed in Vancouver on December 8th. The final show was watched by 54,500 people at the BC Place Stadium. Unknown millions via livestream and, well, it stands to reason. A number of people who paid $16.50 each to sit behind the stadium stage sold as listening only tickets. They offered no view of the show. Amazing. No view of the show. And people still bought the tickets. The entire last evening, glittering and emotionally laden, was covered by every news outlet with some offer offering minute by minute updates. A bit excessive, maybe, but it felt right. This wasn't just the end of eras, it was the end of an era. The tour had navigated 149 tumultuous dates, unimpeded even by a terrorist threat that forced the cancellation of three Vienna dates in August 2024 and had finally reached the end of its road. Taylor's plan for what comes next, according to an Us Weekly report report, is to take time off and do normal couple things with Travis Kelce. If she sees out a whole 12 months without making an album, playing a few shows on a much smaller scale, obviously, or releasing Taylor's versions of Reputation and the debut album, it will be the first professionally inactive period of her life. She did turn up the 67th Grammy Awards on February 2, 2025, though she's such a such a fixture at Grammy ceremonies that it almost counted as a leisure activity rather than formal work. Her short red sequined Vivienne Westwood dress, the sort of showpiece frock she carries off with ease. It helps being 5 foot 11, but all eyes were diverted to her left thigh, to which she'd attached a delicate chain with the letter T dangling from it. Was the T for Travis, who was unable to attend because he was training for the following Sunday?

[Renita Hora]

Super?

[Caroline Sullivan]

Or was she referencing a line from Guilty as Sin, a tortured poet's department song assumed to be about Matty Healy? The song news is about his writing mine on her thigh, making it easy to draw very probably the wrong inference at any rate, the Daily Mail deemed the Thigh Chain risque so job done.

[Renita Hora]

Wonderful. Thank you so much Caroline. I cannot wait to read the full book.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Thank you so much.

[Renita Hora]

And this is going to put a whole new light on Taylor Swift as far as I'm concerned.

[Caroline Sullivan]

Give it to your daughter.

[Renita Hora]

I am going to give it to my daughter absolutely without a doubt. Thanks for joining us on the True Fiction Project. Here at the True Fiction Project we are always looking for great stories that make for compelling fiction. So if you have a great story or know somebody who does or if you are a writer who would like to contribute then please do get in touch with [e-mail] contact

[Announcer]

thank you for listening to the True Fiction Project with Renita Hora. Be sure to subscribe to the newsletter to receive more inspiring stories showing how fiction is born from our everyday experiences. For more information visit www.truefictionproject.com.