The Forgotten UFO Case that Changed Aviation History

Summary

UFO Talker Podcast - "The Forgotten UFO Case That Changed Aviation History"

Date: July 29, 2026
Host: Michael Ryan
Guest Co-Host: Christine Scott
Episode Theme: Revisiting the influential Killian Incident—how a 1959 airline UFO sighting changed pilot reporting forever

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Overview

In this "Best of" edition, UFO Talker focuses on the Killian Incident, a pivotal but often forgotten UFO case from 1959 that dramatically altered how commercial pilots handled UFO sightings. Hosts Michael Ryan and Christine Scott take listeners on a deep dive into the event, its context, aftermath, and how it set new rules for UFO discourse in the airline industry. The episode also includes book gift ideas for UFO enthusiasts, a short feature on ufologist Ann Druffle, and an audio excerpt from Preston Dennett's Humanoids and High: 20 True UFO Encounters.

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Holiday Banter & Podcast Community (01:04–04:55)

• Michael and Christine open with festive banter, celebrating the Christmas episode.
• Michael publicly thanks Christine for her contributions to the show:

  “I just want to say something publicly I have never said before. And that is how great Christine Scott is and how much she adds to the show. And I am forever grateful that she is present when she is.” (02:09)

• They recall their history together, mentioning past collaborations on Home Movies Magazine, Canada’s only laserdisc publication in the 90s.
• The 2023 Christmas Draw winner is announced: Mark Ho Kane from Brooklyn, NY.

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Holiday UFO Book Gift Recommendations (05:15–11:37)

• Christine’s Picks:

  • Against the Odds by Linda Powell—Donald Keyhoe biography

    “I am naming that book of the year.” (05:38)

  • Love in an Alien Purgatory: The Life and Fantastic Art of David Higgins by Farah Uddozo

    “If you have someone who's interested in art and UFOs...this might, you know, check the boxes.” (07:08)

  • Space Age Indians: Their Encounters with the Blue Men, Reptilians and Other Star People by RD6 Killer Clark
  • Jacques Vallée’s published journals (“couldn’t pick just one”).

• Michael’s Picks:

  • The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects by Edward J. Ruppelt—praised as must-read classic.
  • The UFO Experience by J. Allen Hynek—foundation of “close encounter” terminology.
  • Strange Company by Keith Chester—on WWII Foo Fighter sightings:

    “After reading Strange Company, no, a lot of these pilots in World War II...saw what they thought were enemy craft that had been built in Germany or Japan or somewhere else.” (11:13)

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Community Feature: Spruce Grove, Alberta (11:45–14:22)

• Shout-out to listeners in Spruce Grove, Alberta—a suburb of Edmonton.
• Fun facts: Home to Bee Maid honey/corn syrup and NHL goalie Grant Fuhr.
• Notable for ubiquitous speed cameras at traffic lights:

  “So there's no speeding in Spruce Grove because you will get a ticket. So I don't know if that's a pro or a con then...” (13:07)

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A Moment in UFO History: Ann Druffle (15:43–17:52)

• Tribute to pioneering ufologist Ann Druffle (1926–2020), lifelong NICAP and MUFON investigator.
• Notable for 6 books, 190+ articles, and 7 unproduced UFO-themed screenplays.
• Set the stage for in-depth research and raised the standard for credibility in UFO investigation.

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Feature Segment: The Killian Incident – Airliners Paste by Three UFOs (17:52–38:13)

Setting the Scene (17:52–20:56)

• On February 24, 1959, American Airlines DC-6 Flight 937 (Cap. Peter Killian, Co-pilot John Dee) spots three unidentified flying objects between Newark and Detroit, at about 8,500 ft over Lock Haven, Pennsylvania.
• “Not a spectacular UFO encounter, but it is a case that brings up a lot of good points.” (17:52)

Sighting Details (20:56–23:08)

• Clear night, good visibility, no moon. Initially thought to be Orion's Belt, but those stars were elsewhere.
• The three objects maintained relative position for 35–40 minutes—one would lag, they alternately brightened and dimmed.
• Other aircrews were contacted and confirmed the sighting; widely reported in the newspapers.

Era Details & Behind the Scenes (23:08–25:35)

• Newspaper coverage was unusually detailed, listing names, ages, and addresses of flight staff.

  “In some of these articles, believe it or not, it actually gave their address.” (23:56)

• Anecdotes on the “golden years of air travel”—passengers dressed up, filet mignon was served on board.

Breaking Protocol: Pilot Announcement (25:42–28:08)

• Unusual for the era: Captain Killian informed passengers about the UFOs over the intercom:

  “Ladies and gentlemen, American Airlines has a special treat for you tonight. If you look out the windows on your left side, you'll get to see a little surprise. They aren't stars and no airplanes have color like that. So make up your own mind as to what they are.” (Quote, 27:36)

• Such candor would be unheard of today, notes both hosts.

Aftermath & Government Denial (28:08–34:45)

• On landing, reporters awaited—the airline (not the pilots) had arranged coverage.
• Killian kept answering the phone into the night and appeared on radio/TV.
• Two other commercial flights (e.g., United 321) confirmed the sighting.
• The U.S. Air Force soon issued a dismissive press release blaming “stars,” then “bomber refueling operations.”
• Captain Killian’s frustration:

  “I've been flying for 28 years. I think I can tell the difference between stars.” (30:19)

• Christine: “He checked with air traffic control and showed no aircraft in the area at all.” (31:55)
• Major Donald Keyhoe’s analysis:

  “This press release was plainly meant to serve three purposes. 1) To offset the airline crew’s reports; 2) To warn all airline pilots that they too would be officially ridiculed if they publicly reported UFO sightings; and 3) To reduce the growing support of Capitol Hill for open UFO hearings.” (32:10)

The Turning Point: Pilots Silenced (34:45–38:13)

• The case effectively silenced commercial pilots from reporting UFOs:

  “From this case forward, the door really shut on pilots being able to, commercial pilots being able to talk about their UFO encounters. And that's why you very, very rarely hear about a pilot from a major airline talk about it. And I'm going to say probably none. The only ones you kind of hear from are that they're retired.” (34:21)

• 50 pilots at first, then 400 more, went public with UFO sightings in the immediate aftermath—numbers never seen today.
• NICAP found that Capt. Killian was ordered not to speak further; he was “angry about being silenced and felt his rights were being denied.” (Christine, 34:21)
• “We can hold this case up as the turning point for commercial airline pilots, you know, not saying anything from this point forward.” (A, 34:55)
• Host appeals for modern pilots to share their stories, voicing gratitude to those who spoke out in the past.

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Other Segments

Recent Canadian Civil Aviation Anomalies (38:13–40:27)

• Reports include:
  • Air Canada flight’s smoking Kindle battery contained safely
  • Calgary Flying Club’s Cessna 172 illuminated by blue laser near Vulcan, Alberta
  • Air France crew sees object with 6–7 lights over the Atlantic

Book Excerpt: Humanoids and High 20 True UFO Encounters by Preston Dennett (40:27–49:31)

• Dramatic real-life encounter: A family, lost in the fog while camping near Julian, California, is possibly guided to safety by a mysterious being. Later, a shadowy, massive, bipedal creature presses its hand onto their tent—described in chilling detail:

  “It was like giving a high five to a giant strong hand...It instantly drew back. When I screamed, I heard whatever it was leave...That was the weirdest thing.” (Narration, 43:00–46:00 approx.)

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Episode Wrap-Up & Holiday Goodbyes (49:31–54:54)

• Lighthearted closing with co-host Joy Ryan remembering favorite book excerpts and holiday rituals (watching It’s a Wonderful Life, A Charlie Brown Christmas, etc.).
• Reflective moment on hope and peace:

  “There is always hope. You know. Go and watch a Frank Capra movie from the 40s. There is always hope.” (A, 54:25)

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Key Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Killian’s Candor:
  “Can you imagine being on a flight today and hearing that?” (27:56, Michael)
• On Official Dismissal:
  “He checked with air traffic control and showed no aircraft in the area at all.” (31:55, Christine)
• On Silencing Pilots:
  “This is the case that really shut the door for pilots.” (33:38, Christine)
• On the Impact:
  “We can hold this case up as the turning point for commercial airline pilots, you know, not saying anything from this point forward.” (34:55, Michael)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Holiday Open & Community Banter | 01:04–04:55 | | UFO Book Gift Recommendations | 05:15–11:37 | | Spruce Grove, Alberta Shout-out | 11:45–14:22 | | Ann Druffle – Moment in UFO History | 15:43–17:52 | | The Killian Incident Feature Discussion | 17:52–38:13 | | Canadian Civil Aviation Anomalies | 38:13–40:27 | | Book Excerpt: Preston Dennett’s “Humanoids...” | 40:27–49:31 | | Episode Wrap-up & Holiday Goodbye | 49:31–54:54 |

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Tone & Style

• Warm, conversational, and nostalgic.
• Equal parts meticulous and approachable—heavy on historical detail, but always accessible.
• Frequent playful asides and behind-the-scenes glimpses from both hosts.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a must-listen (or must-read) for anyone interested in how UFO reports by airline pilots came to be taboo, exposing a forgotten but crucial shift in aviation and UFO history. It’s also a festive, fun, and thoughtful holiday special packed with reading suggestions and personal touches.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi everybody, this is Michael Ryan. We are on summer hiatus, but for the rest of the summer we are going to play the Best of UFO Talker Podcast. So enjoy today's episode and as always, if you have a question or comment or something you would like to say to us, send your email to ufotalkerell.net foreign.

[B]

You are listening to the UFO Talker podcast. Come with us as we explore UFOs from the past and the present. With insightful discussions, interviews and reviews, we will add our voice to the mysteries that have been seen in our skies and oceans for all of human history. Now, here is our host, Michael Ryan.

[A]

Welcome everybody to the podcast. This is season 2, episode 16 from Studio 7H here in Ontario, Canada.

[C]

And I'm Christine Scott coming to you live from Studio 9H in the lovely warehouse district in Regina, Saskatchewan.

[A]

And Christine, it's. What time is it?

[D]

It's Christmas.

[C]

It's Christmas. Yay. I've been bad. I hear I'm getting cold.

[A]

It's the Christmas episode once again. It's hard to believe it's come around so quickly again.

[C]

I know.

[A]

And I have these Christmas bells. Here's a little behind the scenes info in the little bunker soundproof booth that my studio is in. I've bought these Christmas bells last year and they've sat behind the light for a year now. And I think about putting them away and I never did. And so there you go. It's been looking at Christmas bells all year long. And I'm so glad I brought that story up.

[C]

It's the behind the scenes detail that our readers are wanting. Our readers, our listeners.

[A]

Yes. Before we get to the main parts of the show, something I want to mention, because it is Christmas, gets you in the mood of seeing where you've come from and all that kind of thing. But I just want to say something publicly I have never said before. And that is how great Christine Scott is and how much she adds to the show. And I am forever grateful that she is present when she is.

[C]

Thank you. I really appreciate that. I'm so glad that, you know, we had, you had asked me to join Home Movies in the past and I know this was a pet project of yours and I'm so glad you made me a part of it.

[A]

So sometimes I think a lot of listeners don't know the full story. I'll go into just a tiny bit of it, but Christine and I first met in the. I think was the 90s, wasn't it?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was the editor and publisher of Home Movies Magazine, which is. Which was Canada's only laserdisc publication. Remember those? Laserdisc.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so she wrote reviews and she had a column called the Chit Chat Lounge. And that's where he first met. So she has been great ever since or even before great. Well, Christine, now it is time to finally pick the winner of the Christmas draw 2023. And that person will be winning a official UFO talker coffee mug and a UFO talker baseball cop and the Linda Powell book Against the Odds. So here we go. I'm rolling the drum now. You can't hear it in the background, but I am rolling this little drum and I'm going to pick the name out of the drum now. And the winner is Mark Ho Kane from Brooklyn, New York. Congratulations. That is spectacular. It's. We will send off your gifts as soon as humanly possible. And thank you for entering the 2023 Christmas Prize draw later in today's episode. The book excerpt that we are going to read from today is Preston Dennett's humanoids and high 21 UFO encounters. We'll be reading from that book and also Preston Dennett will be in the. On be on the show in just a few weeks from now. So look forward to that. So, Christine, because this is the Christmas episode and you can never say that enough.

[C]

Yep, Ho, ho, ho.

[A]

That it is the Christmas episode. We will be reading books or we will be talking about books that we would like to find under the Christmas tree. So Christine, what book, what is your first book on your list?

[C]

Well, well, first I'm going to say if we're recommending. I'm just going to hit another recommendation from a book that we reviewed and we just. That a lucky winner just won out of. I think the. The UFO Book of the Year is Against the Odds by Linda Powell. The. The Donald Keyhole biography. I am, I am naming that book of the year.

[A]

Wow, I'm so excited. I actually haven't read it yet, but shortly I will begin and I just, I get more and more excited to read about it because your review and the way you talk about it is so highly recommended.

[C]

Yeah, I cannot recommend it enough. But books I have not read this year that I would really like to read. The first one I'm going to start with, it's called Love in an Alien Purgatory. The Life and Fantastic Art of David Higgins by, I think, I hope I'm pronouncing this right, Farrah Udozu.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Because, you know, there's a long tradition of science fiction art and Alien art. But there hasn't been a lot of new stuff out. You know, you see a lot of Internet AI generated but it's really nice to see a new art book like this coming out and something about the artist. So I'm just really curious.

[A]

Yeah. So is this book mainly artwork?

[C]

It's artwork and a bit of biography. It's published by Anomalist Books and you know, basically that's a name you can trust anything they put out. Yeah, it really caught my eye and it would, I think would be a really good gift for your. If you have someone who's interested in art and UFOs and there aren't that many books out about it.

[A]

No, no, no.

[C]

You get the old science fiction art of the 70s and the 80s, but this is something new that I think if you're looking for a gift for an art lover and UFO enthusiast in your life, I would say this, this might, you know, check the boxes.

[A]

Boy. Now you want. I want to change my list.

[D]

Now

[A]

I've heard your first two picks and what, what else did you have on your.

[C]

Well, after we've been talking about. I don't want to give too much away for future interviews, but with us talking about UFO sightings on northern reserves in Ontario personally, there's another book out called Space Age Indians Their Encounters with the Blue Men, Reptilians and Other star people by RD6 killer Clark.

[A]

Intriguing.

[C]

Yeah, sounds quite intriguing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is a lot of. There are a few different books and TV shows and documentaries on first nations, people that have seen a lot of UFOs and that kind of thing. So I think later in this season we will explore that a lot more thoroughly. For sure.

[C]

And then actually, because there's so many great book gifts you can give this year for the UFO lover, there's actually Jacques Valli's journals have been published.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And there's a whole bunch of them, so I couldn't pick one. I think there's at least four or five that have just that are in print. And again, you can thank Anomalist for reprinting a lot of this material. But. But there's another classic gift for the U. If you have a UFO fan that's a big name. So there are so many good new UFO books coming out right now. If you can't think of a Christmas present.

[A]

I know, I know. And so I have kind of. For me, I have kind of gone backwards a bit. I have picked some books that, that I would like to find under the tree. Even though I have Read them and all that kind of thing. I think for people who are looking to give gifts, I think this, these, these would all be really good books to give. And there's a few books I just, you know, every chance I get, I always mention them. And so the first book I think would be a good present to find under the tree for someone who is into UFOs is the Edward J. Rappelt book, the Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. Oh, the classic, which was first printed in 1956. So that is just, you know, to me it's, it is such a great book. And J. Allen Hynek actually said this should be required reading for anyone interested in the topic. So I hardly agree with that. And speaking of Hynek, that would be my second book, the UFO Experience, which was 1974. And that's where he gave us, you know, Close Encounters of the First Kind, Close Encounters of the Second Kind, Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

[C]

Yeah, you can't go wrong with classics there. And there are so many UFO classics to pick from.

[A]

And my third pick is kind of, it's newer and it's, to me, it's just such a great, great book. And we've read an excerpt from it a couple of shows ago. It's Keith Chester's Strange Company, and that is about the Foo Fighters seen during World War II. So strange company, it actually is written very well and it reads very well. So it's just an exciting book to, to kind of add to your collection of UFO books. And something about Strange Company that really opened my eyes because I thought I had known a lot about Foo Fighters. And if you would have asked me before, I would have said, oh, they were just balls of light and blah, blah, blah. But after reading Strange Company, no, a lot of these pilots In World War II, they saw craft like saucer shaped and cigar shaped. And so, yeah, it wasn't just these little balls of light. They actually saw what they thought were enemy craft that had been built in Germany or Japan or somewhere else.

[C]

And I, I thought the same thing until you told me that, you know, it was one of those. I was today years old. I heard this.

[A]

And now it's time to give out the shout out of the week to a small town or city where we have listeners. And this week we're giving a shout out to our listeners in Spruce Grove, Alberta. And it is a suburb of Edmonton. I think it's 11 km away or something like that. It has a population of 38,985 people. And I think Christine, you have some interesting facts about Spruce Grove.

[C]

Yeah, if they are. If you live on the prairies, you know their number one product, be made honey, Bee made honey and Bee made corn syrup. They are a prairie staple. You know, if you don't live here anymore and you hear that, that name will fill you with all sorts of nostalgia because they have been a Canadian, a prairie institution for as long as I can remember. Delicious honey corn syrup. Especially this time of year when we're all baking on the prairies. Trust me, you are using be made.

[A]

And also, something about Spruce Grove is they have. I don't know if they have many more than this one, but they. In all the pictures, they keep showing one of those grain elevators that are so iconic out west. It's mainly a newer kind of a suburb. So it's. It has a history, has a fairly long history, but I would say it's really a product of the last, you know, 20 or 30 years. It just kind of has that new suburbia kind of look to it. And one thing that got mentioned and I had to take note of it is they were saying that every traffic light in Spruce Grove has a speed camera on it. And I thought, wow, so there's no speeding in Spruce Grove because you will get a ticket. So I don't know if that's a pro or a con then, because it is hard to stay exactly the speed. I definitely don't speed, but it's hard to stay exactly the same speed all the time. So that would be a little. That would be a little disconcerting. You would be very tuned in to, you know, you're driving, that's for sure.

[C]

And I'm sure they're, you know, be interesting to see how much they've reduced fatalities and traffic accidents and, you know, because as a pedestrian, I certainly worry about that type of thing. I walk everywhere and I'm terrified sometimes.

[A]

Something else about Spruce Grove, the hockey goalie Grant Fuhrer was born there and he is been vote, you know, voted before. One of the hundred best hockey players of all time. He was in five Stanley Cups. He mainly played for the Edmonton Oilers, but I didn't know that. So there you go. You didn't some of these things, when you look up the small town or city, you're amazed at who has come from these places. So that's our shout out to Spruce Grove, Alberta. And wherever you listen to us from, we would always like to hear from you and your thoughts on the show. So if you want to send us, drop us an email it'[e-mail] and be and Christine, because it is the Christmas show and you can never say it's the Christmas show. Enough on the Christmas show.

[C]

Nope.

[A]

That we will. Joy and I will be having a little bit of Christmas banter at the very end of the show for those people who always listen to the very end and there are some out there, so stay tuned for that if you're interested in that kind of thing.

[C]

We'll be right back after this message.

[D]

And now for a moment in UFO history. UFO investigator, researcher and author Ann Druffle was born on August 12, 1926. As a schoolgirl in 1945, Anne and her mother witnessed a bright yellowish object in a clear blue sky over Long Beach, California. The object released 15 to 20 smaller shiny objects. This sighting would set ann on her 60 year journey into the world of unidentified flying objects. Anne Druffle was a devoted lifelong Catholic and she met her husband, husband Charles Druffle in 1951 at the Catholic Alumni Club. In 1957, Anne joined NICAP and was one of their first investigators. In 1973, she joined MUFON. Over the years, she investigated thousands of UFO cases and contributed to all aspects of the phenomenon. Anne was the author of six books, including Firestorm, a book about her fellow ufologist Dr. James McDonald, whom she worked with on several investigations. Her contributions to ufology not only included her books, but over 190 articles on

[E]

the subject

[D]

not widely known. Anne also wrote seven unproduced screenplays, including one on the life of Dr. James McDonald entitled A Man with Wonder. Anne Druffle passed away in June of 2020, but she never lost her interest in the phenomenon. Ann Druffle was a pioneer in the field of ufology and her life's work stands as a beacon for all of those who came after her.

[A]

So today, Christine and I, we are doing an incident. It was called the Killian Incident and it was from Tuesday, February 24, 1959. And it wasn't like this was a spectacular UFO encounter, but it is a case that brings up a lot of good points and I think that is why it's definitely worthy talking about it. So I'm just going to set it up for people who are not familiar with it or don't know anything about it. And so what it, what happened is on the night of February 24th, there was an American Airlines DC6. And if you want to picture that in your mind, that's one of those old four engine prop planes, you know, before jets, and they Looked really. They look really cool now if you'll take a picture of them. And they only held around 35 passengers. So the captain of this flight, his name was Peter Killian and his co pilot was John D. They were flying on American Airlines Flight 937 from Newark, New Jersey to Detroit, Michigan. And as they were flying, and it was, this was at night, Captain Killian was noticed something out of the left corner of his vision. And it was three UFOs. And they were flying kind of in a horizontal, like one after the other kind of position. And what happened next is for the next 35 to 40 minutes, they watched these UFOs. They grew very bright, they grew dim. They. One would kind of lag behind the others. And he actually got other pilots involved and that were in other air crews. And this story was actually made huge news at the time. They. So he was flying at about 8,500ft when he noticed this. And that is kind of funny now when you think about it, because most modern jets, when you take a trip somewhere, they're flying at, you know, between 30 and 40,000ft. So substantially higher. So I think this had something to do with oxygen in the cabin. I think, you know, they could only fly that high because the. They didn't have someone. So one of, one of our listeners will have to point this out. If back then those planes had pressurized cabins or not, that I. I'm not sure of. But they were flying about 280 to 300 miles per hour. And it was around 8:45 that they first noticed it in the pilot. Killian said they were over Lockhaven, Pennsylvania, and kind of maybe a little bit closer to Williamsport, Pennsylvania when he saw it.

[C]

And the most important thing to realize here was the visibility pilots reported. It was a clear night, stars brightly visible, no moon. And when Killian saw the lights, the first thing he thought, oh, these are the three stars making up the belt of the constellation Orion. But then he realized Orion was also visible higher overhead, and the UFOs were about 15 degrees above the plane. And it's funny when you read the old NICAP report, they call this airliners paste by three UFOs. Yes, and I went paste.

[A]

But it's a time, especially back then, where there was a lot of commercial airliners seen UFOs, and they were reported in the paper, the papers, a lot back then. One thing I do want to mention is we're getting our information from a couple of sources. One of them is the NICAP report on this. And also there was a great booklet that was produced by a club. It was called the Unidentified Flying Objects Research Committee of Akron, Ohio. And that committee was formed in 1958. Now, I'm not sure when they disbanded, but they put out really a spectacular booklet. It was about 25 pages long and it had everything you'd ever want to know about this report on it. One thing that really struck me as very funny or odd is it has a lot of. In this booklet had a lot of newspaper clippings and something which I had totally forgotten because as a kid it was kind of the tail end of when they did this. But a lot of newspapers in the 50s, when they would talk about the people in the story, I'll give an example. So in a couple of the newspaper articles they talked about, there was two stewardesses on this flight and they not only gave their names and their ages, but where they lived. So it's kind of.

[C]

Can you imagine now with the Internet and people who can talk to you and find you and. No.

[A]

Yes, it is quite un. It's really bizarre. When I read it and it really popped. It brought back a memory from a long, long time ago when I was a kid. And I thought, oh, I remember this. It was a thing in journalism that when you mention the person in the story, it was mainly always, you know, so and so of Phoenix, Arizona or so and so of La Habra, California or something like. There was a lot more personal information. And in some of these articles, believe it or not, it actually gave their address.

[C]

But I remember that.

[A]

I think that was mainly more local papers.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, I don't think the Los Angeles Times did that, but your local paper where you grew up. I. So I, as a lot of people know, I grew up in Huntington Beach, California.

[C]

And.

[A]

And our local paper was called the Huntington Beach Independent. Is probably thousands of papers were called the Independent, but they. I remember they would give the person's physical street address in. In stories. And I thought you didn't think anything of it at the time, but now you think, wow, that would just.

[C]

No, it was just, no, no, no, don't do that.

[A]

Do not do that. And the. I won't mention any more information, but the stewardesses there of. Were of an age from 1959, that it's quite possible they're still alive. So it might be interesting to. To maybe have them on in a future. Future show, perhaps. Something else that really caught my attention about this flight was they were serving filet mignon. Oh, on the flight, the Golden.

[C]

The Golden Years of air travel.

[A]

I know, I know. And, and also, you know, I don't even have to see pictures of what they looked like. I'm gonna say everyone was dressed up in their best clothing that was on this flight, like suit and tie and, you know, smart skirts and all that kind of thing. Not like today.

[C]

No. And probably very well behaved. Not like today.

[A]

I don't know if our listeners, how many of them listen to the anomalous report that we read out every show about what happens on Canadian Commercial Airways, but I have to actually look through these reports before I pick out the three or four we're going to put on. So I'm reading through hundreds of them actually, and it is amazing how many people where the flight stopped and police had to be called to take off. People who've lost their mind or not civil or craziness. It's, it's something you think, wow, what has happened? Like, we can't even get on, we can't even make it through a flight without chaos ensuing. And you know, definitely, and I'm not really judging this, but definitely, if you've taken a flight recently, suit and tie is not the attire that you see anymore. Like some of the people, I want to say to them, oh, you just got up, you came to the flight in your pajamas today. How interesting. So to get back to our story, and this is also a product of the times is Captain Peter Killian. As they're watching these UFOs, he decided that he was going to tell the passengers. So definitely that is not done today. And I, I actually have interviewed some people who were curious why the pilot didn't mention to something they're looking out the window at, which obviously the pilots would have seen as well, but on this flight. So Captain Killian decided that he was going to tell the pilots. And this is an actual quote he over the intercom, he said, ladies and gentlemen, American Airlines has a special treat for you tonight. If you look out the windows on your left side, you'll get to see a little surprise. They aren't stars and no airplanes have color like that. So make up your own mind as to what they are. Wow, can you imagine me on a flight today and hearing that?

[C]

No, no, pilots have enough trouble now. But, but you know, like you say, this was it. This is actually a defining case for pilots.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Because you know, if you read a lot of reports back in this era, this time frame, pilots were a lot more open about seeing UFOs and talking about it with passengers and that kind of thing. And when the, when this plane landed, there was already reporters waiting. So the airline had already set it up to get reporters to talk about it when the plane landed, which now is the opposite. They don't want to talk about anything like that that had happened. And so Captain Killian, he had actually stayed up till 2am in his hotel room answering the phone from reporters all over the U. S. Ask him about what had happened. Also a few days later he was on radio and TV shows in New York City about it. So you kind of forget how big a case that this was. I'm also, there was, like I mentioned before, there was two other commercial airliners that saw this. There was a United Airlines Flight 321 and they confirmed everything that Captain Killian had had mentioned as well. Now, because it made so much of an uproar on February 28, a few days later, the US Air Force released a press statement, you know, saying that it was mainly stars that everyone probably saw. And this had the opposite effect, I believe, of what they wanted because this just made a lot of people more upset. And especially Captain Killian because, you know, in his newspaper articles he had mentioned that, that he had seen Orion and these objects at the same time. And he actually commented on this press release in the papers and he said, you know, I've been flying for 28 years. I think I can tell the difference between stars.

[C]

Yeah. And so go ahead.

[A]

Yeah, in something like this and that, that is something that you have even today when you hear it, when you do hear that pilots have seen something and you hear people on the radio or wherever, they say, oh, you know, they probably saw this. And I think, well, that guy, you know, you heard he'd been flying for 30 years. Like I think he can figure that out. Like, you know, have you been flying for 30 years? Like, you know, you probably see the sky a lot. Like you're probably really familiar.

[C]

It's like people asking me, do you see a lot of books in your job? And I have had that question. Oh my God, I'm not kidding. Well, and then the Air Force also threw at them, the pilots, they said, oh no. You saw Air Force bombers refueling from a tanker aircraft.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, that was so that was brought up. So about three weeks later, they, that was a Major Lawrence J. Tacker and that this guy was from the Pentagon. So they really bumped up who was going to be talking about this. And he went into a whole thing that it was the nighttime refueling of a B47 and KC97 tank anchor planes. And again, you know, Captain Killian, he said, yeah, he's seen that before. And they actually thought of that when they were looking at the lights. And he said, but because of the brilliance of the lights and how the lights maneuvered, they had ruled that out.

[C]

Yeah. And he's apparently checked after landing and learned no jet tankers were in the area. He checked with air traffic control and showed no aircraft in the area at all.

[A]

Yeah. So it sounded more, you know, that that part was thrown in there to get everybody off the trail of, of UFOs. And you know how we've, we've had, we've talked about the Donald Kehoe biography recently and we talked about him at the top of the show. So Major Donald Kehoe, he was involved in the story. That shows you how big this story was, that he was involved. And I have a quote from him where he was talking about major attackers press release. And he said so this press release was plainly meant to serve three purposes. One, to offset the airline cruise reports, two, to warn all airline pilots that they too would be officially ridiculed if they publicly reported UFO sightings. And three, to reduce the growing support of Capitol Hill for open UFO hearings. And you, that was the quote from Kehoe. And it's so history to me. Like I love history. And it's so telling because when you read those three things that Major Donald Keyhole mentioned, boy, how many of them are still in place today? Like it's, it's the script that we've been reading for the last, you know, 60 odd years or whatever.

[C]

Yeah. And this is the case that really shut the door for pilots.

[A]

And that, that second point that he mentioned to warn airline pilots that they too would be ridiculed.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So that didn't stop. And, and really from this case, and I can't think of many others like this work. From this case forward, the door really shut on pilots being able to, commercial pilots being able to talk about their UFO encounters. And that's why you very, very rarely hear about a pilot from a major airline talk about it. And I'm going to say probably none. The only ones you kind of hear from are that they're retired.

[C]

Yeah, this is the one moving forward. And I guess NICAP phoned Captain Killian and Mrs. Killian took the call and told the NICAP director. Captain Killian had been instructed not to say any more about the sighting. And she indicated he was angry about being silenced and felt his rights were being denied. And this is like a slap in the face to A professional.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, he knew what he was doing, he knew what he saw. He answered all the questions, he reported on all the variables, and he got

[A]

just slapped for it and also ridiculed. So, yeah, this case, I think we can hold this case up as the turning point for commercial airline pilots, you know, not saying anything from this point forward. And also the companies they fly for, which originally, you know, and even in this case, there was reporters waiting. So the pilots didn't arrange that. It would have been the airline that arranged.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So they were kind of encouraging it. Right. But this, from this point forward, that all changed. The door slammed shut. And, you know, even when Kehoe was talking about to reduce the growing support on Capitol Hill Hill for opening up UFO hearings. And I thought, isn't that funny? It's how many decades later, and we're still reading the same script from.

[C]

Yeah. And a lot of people will not realize that it hinged on this case.

[A]

It is. It shows you how important this case is. That's why we brought it up today. And also, here's something else interesting that right after this happened, and they. There was a group of 50 commercial airline pilots demanded that something be done, because all 50 of these commercial airline pilots, they had all witnessed UFOs. About a few weeks after those 50 came out, a further 400 came out. And those are really staggering numbers when you think of it. So 450 commercial airline pilots who had seen UFOs. And I'm thinking, wow, like, you wouldn't think, you know, now we kind of imagine, like, is there five that see them?

[C]

Like, yeah, because you don't hear about them.

[A]

You don't hear about it very often. And you're thinking, wouldn't we be amazed probably, if we heard how many commercial airline pilots were seeing UFOs today?

[C]

And. But we won't.

[A]

I know we won't.

[C]

And until they retire, until maybe, possibly.

[A]

And we are in. So one of the reasons I picked this case for us to highlight is this is the case on this day. Everything changed from this day forward. So I just want to mention that if there are any commercial airline pilots or any pilots out there listening to us right now, we would love to hear your story. And, you know, whether you want it to be on the podcast or not, I would still love to hear about it. So I just want to say that for us personally, we just want to thank Captain Peter Killian and co pilot John D. And the stewardesses for, you know, making a point of telling the story and how important it was and what it has meant in the history of ufology. It really was a turning point. So sometimes it is good to look back on what has gone before.

[E]

Here are the Canadian civil aviation anomalies for the week of December 11 through December 15, 2023. An aviation incident report was filed from October 7, 2023. A passenger on an Air Canada Boeing 737 Max 8 flying from Las Vegas, Nevada to Vancouver, British Columbia, noticed that their Kindle E Reader, which has a lithium battery, was producing smoke in their backpack. The passenger alerted the flight crew. The crew put the smoking object in a fire bag and filled it with water. The object did not catch fire and was kept in water until their arrival to Vancouver International Airport. There were no injuries on the flight and no delays caused by the incident. The Kindle was kept by Air Canada and was under quarantine while awaiting an investigation. On December 12, a Calgary Flying Club Cessna 172N flying from Calgary Spring Bank, Alberta reported laser illumination 3.5 nautical miles northwest of Vulcan, Alberta, originating approximately 2 nautical miles from Vulcan Airport. It was a blue light with 20 to 30 seconds of exposure. No physical effect on the crew, no emergency action taken. It was intentional in nature. The area control center shift manager was advised and police were called by shift manager. On December 12th during cruise, a Societe Air France Airbus A350 900 flying from Los Angeles to Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport, France, reported an object ahead and above with six to seven lights. Potential unidentified aircraft. No flights were impacted and all flights proceeded to their destination without further incident.

[D]

And now the UFO Talker Podcast brings you an audio excerpt from the book Humanoids and High 20 True UFO Encounters by Preston Dennett.

[E]

Used by permission from the author.

[D]

Read by Joy Ryan. Published by Blue Giant Books Book Synopsis this book contains never before published stories of strange encounters with humanoid type beings, 20 stories of encounters with gray aliens, ghosts, supernatural entities, and many on board UFO encounters. The lingering strangeness of her encounter had faded somewhat, but soon events would occur which brought it back to the forefront of her mind. Over the next two years Susan and her husband would go camping with Jackie. We traveled in Jackie's old truck, Susan said. That was a beast and it took us to many fun places. I called it Battle Wagon Galactica. It had a camper's shell on the back, but we usually camped in a tent. We were like the Three Musketeers. For two years they usually headed to the mountains of Julian, California because it was a short trip from home. Often they would take the forestry roads which was Always interesting. They discovered many waterfalls and streams that many people never saw because they were not on the maps. One of Susan's favorite hiking and camping spots was lake Cuyamaka. It was a large wilderness area, and many times they tromped through the woods and meadows. With military training, they rarely got lost. But on one memorable occasion, they got to a favorite meadow and. And the fog suddenly moved in. To their surprise, they found themselves lost and disoriented. They couldn't even hear any traffic on the road. It quickly got dark and chilly. They began to hear a creepy sound of big branches snapping on the edge of the meadow. It sounded like a massive creature, but they weren't able to see any animals because of the fog. Susan remembers it well because it gave her the creeps. She had the urge to run, but knew that if it was a bear, that would be a bad idea. Also, she had the feeling it was watching them. She was drawn to follow the sounds of the footsteps along the edge of the meadow. We kind of followed the crunching, Susan said, and it took us to the road. It was almost like whatever was out there knew that we were lost and we followed, Always kept the same distance. And the next thing we knew, we're on the road. We don't know what led us, but we were all led. Whatever it was, it was big. I always thought it was walking on 2ft versus 4ft. That's why it was so creepy. I was drawn to follow it and had not felt that feeling in those woods before. I had felt the strangeness in the desert, but never in the mountains of Julian. This area had always been a safe zone for camping. Was it a bigfoot? They never discussed it, but she thinks it may have been. And it was only a few weeks later, While camping near the same area in Paso Picacho campground, she and her husband and Jackie had another experience which made it clear that Bigfoot was in the area. At that time, the area was still remote. The camping spots were widely separated and private. They spent the day hiking around the area and enjoying the serene beauty of Lake Cuyamaca and all the forests and creeks. When night arrived, they returned to their campsite, Set up a small dome tent which they all shared, and then, as always, cooked a great meal over the open fire. Bear and other animals roamed the area, so they cleaned up the camp and made it safe before they settled into their low beach chairs to laugh and drink and howl at the moon until time for bed. In the moments of silence, they watched the stars and listened to the night. Sounds of nature Back then, we all started the evening with a four foot long fire poking stick, she remembers, and the evening was usually over when the sticks were all burned down to two feet. Took about four hours of laughter to burn it down that low on this chilly night. They all had hoodies with joggers to sleep in. They all got in the tent. Their heads were below a closed tent window and their feet were by the zipper on the opposite side. We were lined up like puppies, susan says. The logs were still burning in the fire pit, just enough to enjoy the flickering as they went to bed. Chuck was in the middle because he was always like an oven and kept both the girls warm. Susan was to his left and Jackie to his right. At some point during the night, Susan was awakened by movement outside the tent. She wasn't really startled, but became very aware that something or someone was walking around the campsite. She heard it fumbling around with an empty bottle. In the next few seconds, she was instantly terrified. She went from wondering what the sound was to seeing a big dark shadow between the flickering fire and the thin nylon tent. Whomever or whatever was out there, it was only a few feet away. And then in a split second, looking through the thin nylon tent fabric, Susan saw what looked like a giant arm reach over the top of the tent and push down the center top directly over her. It made a swishing sound when it hit the tent. She saw an impression of a giant hand and without thinking, she reached up and pushed her own hand on the shadow hand and screamed, get out. The hand she had pushed against was huge and twice the size of her own hand. It had fingers she could clearly feel through the thin tent, says Susan. It was like giving a high five to a giant strong hand. It instantly drew back. When I screamed, I heard whatever it was leave with a few quick steps away toward the back of the tent and head into the woods by the trail. And then silence. Total silence in the woods. At the moment of the encounter, Jackie reacted to Susan's loud scream by jumping across Chuck onto Susan and latching on in a squeeze from the sudden fright in the night. At the same time, Chuck also woke up with all of them bundled together in fright on top of him. Since they were half asleep and didn't hear any of the incident until Susan screamed. They both laughed and rolled over and went instantly back to sleep. Not surprisingly, Susan had a hard time sleeping and sat up in her sleeping bag in the dark tent for a while. She noticed the musty, swampy, wet dog smell in the tent that had not been there before, and she knew it was the smell of whatever was outside. She was creeped out that she had actually touched it through the tent. She also knew that if it was a bear, she would have heard it make bear noises, and that bears do not have a hand like a human. What she felt on the other side of the nylon tent felt like a human hand. She lay there awake, making sure that whatever that giant thing was, it was not returning. After a few minutes, the sound of the forest returned and Susan listened to the fire crackling until she went back to sleep. The next morning, she asked if they had heard anything or had seen that big thing push its hand down on the tent. Both Jackie and Chuck looked at her and laughed. Neither remembered anything other than going to bed and waking up because Susan screamed. They both thought Susan was having a bad dream. Little did they know, says Susan, that a big creature on two legs, very tall and stinky, had walked into our camp, touched the glass bottle and made it move on the ground, which woke me up. Then it made a giant shadow on the tent and its giant hand had literally pushed the top of the tent down to within a foot of my face and I had slapped it and screamed and it ran away. It was on two feet. This was not a four footed creature. It stunk and its steps were gigantic and it got away so fast. That was the weirdest thing. After they had a good laugh about the incident, they began packing up the truck to go home. Ever curious, Susan looked for any prints on the ground around the tent, but it was brushy and rocky and no prints were visible. This is the end of today's excerpt.

[A]

Well, that's our podcast for this week, so please share, follow, subscribe and read the blog and do all those good things to help out UFO Talker. And also if you're on Apple Podcasts, if you could leave a positive review. That always helps us acquire more listeners. And until next time, this is Michael Ryan. Keep watching the skies. Well Joy, I can't believe it is that time already. We did this a year ago. We did. And Christine Scott reminded me the other day that in our banter from last year we talked about what we were going to have for dinner that night and it was spaghetti. Enjoy. What are we gonna have for dinner tonight?

[D]

Spaghetti. What do you know?

[A]

Spaghetti again, but it's very, very good spaghetti, so I have to add that in. And we also have Gracie, which I want to call her the podcast dog because in many of the interviews she is in the same room as where I'm doing the interviews from Quiet as a mouse. And she just sits there contently listening to all of this talk of UFOs.

[E]

Yes.

[A]

But she. Sometimes she barks. Every now and again you might hear her bark. Or sometimes she scratches and you can almost hear her scratching. If you. If you go back and listen real closely, you can hear Gracie the podcast dog.

[D]

So we still have to watch It's a Wonderful Life. We watch that together.

[A]

I know. Every year.

[E]

Every year.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

I like the Alistair Sim Christmas Carol. I watched that. We've watched Charlie Brown Christmas.

[A]

I know when you're. When you are of a certain age, you watch the Charlie Brown Christmas how the Grinch Stole Christmas. Like the original.

[D]

Yes, yes, yes. There is no other version worth watching. So presents are wrapped. They're under the tree. We have two trees.

[A]

Well, of the books that you have read so far, the audio excerpts, which one do you have you most enjoyed reading?

[D]

I most enjoyed reading the very last one about Bigfoot outside the tent, reaching on top of the tent and pushing the tent down. And then the person inside the tent giving it a high five, making it run away.

[A]

I know. That was the Preston Dennett book.

[D]

Made me glad we don't camp anymore.

[A]

I know. That's. Oh, yeah. When she gave high five to whatever it was. Oh, goodness. Yeah. That's making me rethink hiking in the forest anytime soon again.

[D]

Which one did you like?

[A]

I liked your reading of Strange Company. And I thought that one read really well because I thought that when you actually hear it, some like someone else reading it, it's just. It's just captures your imagination and it is a very good book. It what?

[D]

Sounded like a very good book. Yes.

[A]

Now I have to think of the character from James Vaders. His name is Roy Thinis. That's his real name.

[D]

I never watched Invaders until now.

[A]

Roy Themis.

[D]

He was Invaded Weekly.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Whoa. Poor guy.

[A]

Well, I was going to mention the character's name that Roy Thinis played in the Invaders. And I was going to say that person keeps leaving their name on my answering machine. Machine. I think I did that last year. So it's just as well. I can't. So for some reason, the name of the character has totally escaped me at the moment. So I can't do that. So maybe I'll say Roy Thinis was trying to call me. Wow. Wouldn't that be nice?

[D]

Is he alive?

[A]

He is still alive. He's in his. He's in his mid mid 80s.

[E]

Okay.

[A]

But he is still with us. Do do, do, do, do, do. Well, is there anything else you wanted to say?

[D]

Merry Christmas.

[A]

Oh, yes. Merry Christmas. And you know, as always, we always wish peace on earth. Although the world seems to to be having his troubles at the moment. But there is always hope, you know. Go and watch a Frank Capra movie from the 40s. There is always hope.

[C]

Always.

[A]

I think that's it.