Ep 1050 | Jase Rebukes the Ungodly Emasculation of Men & Our Marriages Got off to a Rough Start

Summary

Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family – Episode 1050

Title: Jase Rebukes the Ungodly Emasculation of Men & Our Marriages Got off to a Rough Start
Release Date: March 3, 2025
Guest: Lisa Bevere

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Introduction and Lighthearted Banter (00:01 – 05:38)

The episode kicks off with Jase Robertson asserting, "I am unashamed," setting the tone for the family’s unapologetic stance on their Christian faith. Phil and Jase engage in playful teasing about Zach Jace potentially experiencing a midlife crisis, humorously predicting Zach driving a convertible BMW with the top down. Al Robertson shares a nostalgic and humorous anecdote about his wrestling days with his brother Willie, highlighting the family's close-knit and jovial dynamic.

Notable Quote:

• Jase Robertson (00:52): "Sometimes in life, you're in a room and a conversation comes up and you're like, what are they talking about?"

Marriage Reflections and Personal Stories (05:39 – 23:55)

The conversation shifts toward the Robertson family's own marriages, delving into Phil Robertson's chaotic wedding story. Phil recounts the last-minute planning, fuel mishap with kerosene instead of gasoline, and arriving late to the ceremony, illustrating the imperfect beginnings of their matrimonial journey.

Notable Quote:

• Phil Robertson (05:50): "I've lost 28 pounds, feel great, I'm sleeping well, I'm not hungry on the diet."

Al Robertson shares his experiences with marital conflicts, emphasizing the importance of open communication and mutual support. The family discusses the significance of premarital counseling, compatibility tests, and the biblical foundation of marriage, referencing scriptures from First Corinthians and Ephesians to underscore their perspectives on marital unity and the sanctity of the relationship.

Notable Quote:

• Jase Robertson (10:08): "I think your demon podcast did well because people know that it's out there. All you got to do is declare Jesus as Lord."

Guest Introduction: Lisa Bevere (23:55 – 36:50)

Lisa Bevere joins the conversation, bringing her extensive experience in marriage ministry and authorship. She shares her own journey of overcoming personal trauma and emphasizes the necessity of vulnerability and mutual support in marriage. Lisa discusses the challenges of balancing ministry responsibilities with family life, highlighting the importance of prioritizing marital relationships amidst hectic schedules.

Notable Quote:

• Lisa Bevere (24:15): "Having a little bit of an opportunity for longer form content on YouTube and then our books are available on Amazon."

Lisa recounts personal struggles with shame and how her relationship with John Bevere transformed her understanding of submission and leadership within marriage. She underscores the critical need for spouses to support each other in overcoming personal battles, advocating for transparency and shared burden-bearing to foster a strong, unified partnership.

Notable Quote:

• Lisa Bevere (32:15): "I thought submission meant that if I agreed with you, I did it. And if not, I fought you tooth and nail every inch of the way."

Theological Insights on Marriage and Masculinity (36:51 – 54:49)

The discussion deepens into theological reflections on marriage, drawing parallels between scriptural teachings and contemporary societal issues. Jase Robertson criticizes the emasculation of men and the resulting crises in marital relationships, linking these issues to broader cultural and spiritual battles. The family and Lisa explore the biblical portrayal of marriage as a divine union mirroring Christ's relationship with the church, emphasizing the importance of maintaining distinct and God-ordained roles within the marriage framework.

Notable Quote:

• Lisa Bevere (54:49): "All of the toxic masculinity, all of the shaming of what it means to be a man, distortion of what it means to be a woman... is an attack on the image of God."

Lisa highlights the ongoing cultural wars against traditional marriage structures, tracing their origins back to historical movements aimed at deconstructing the family unit. She argues that these efforts are rooted in spiritual warfare designed to undermine God’s design for marriage and family.

Notable Quote:

• Al Robertson (52:30): "But the truth is, marriage is one of those moments that Christ being center is the hope. Christ being who he is is our hope."

Closing Thoughts and Final Reflections (54:50 – End)

As the episode concludes, the family reiterates the profound truth that Christ’s victory provides hope and assurance for enduring marital challenges. They emphasize the necessity of grounding marriages in biblical principles to withstand societal pressures and spiritual attacks.

Notable Quote:

• Phil Robertson (53:33): "The king and his kingdom win in the end."

Lisa Bevere shares a poignant moment with her grandson, discussing the harmful impact of modern gender ideologies on young men, further advocating for the sanctity of marriage and the divine design of male and female relationships.

Notable Quote:

• Lisa Bevere (54:49): "I see your sin. I see your nakedness. I see your disgustingness. And I'm not leaving. I'm here."

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Key Takeaways

1. Biblical Foundation of Marriage: The Robertson family and Lisa Bevere emphasize marriage as a divine covenant, reflecting Christ's union with the church and grounded in scripture.
2. Overcoming Marital Challenges: Personal stories highlight the importance of vulnerability, communication, and mutual support in navigating marital difficulties.
3. Modern Cultural Battles: The episode addresses contemporary issues affecting marriage, including the emasculation of men and the deconstruction of traditional family roles, framing them as spiritual conflicts.
4. Role of Faith and Spirituality: Maintaining a Christ-centered marriage is portrayed as essential for enduring and overcoming both personal and societal challenges.

Conclusion

Episode 1050 of Unashamed with the Robertson Family offers a deep dive into the complexities of marriage, blending personal anecdotes with theological insights. Featuring guest Lisa Bevere, the episode underscores the necessity of a strong, biblically grounded partnership to navigate the challenges posed by modern societal shifts and spiritual warfare. Listeners are left with a reinforced understanding of the sanctity of marriage and the enduring hope found in Christ.

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For more insights and to follow Lisa Bevere’s work, visit lisabevere.com and explore her books available on Amazon. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Unashamed podcast on Apple Podcasts and YouTube to stay updated with future episodes.

Transcript

[Jase Robertson]

I am unashamed.

[Lisa Bevere]

What about you?

[Phil Robertson]

Welcome back to Unashamed. We were just laughing at Zach Jace, which we do a lot in leading up to our podcast. You said he's going through a midlife crisis.

[Jase Robertson]

No, I said he's showing tendencies of that with all the hats and. And different things.

[Phil Robertson]

And I said, he's going to pull up one day in a convertible BMW with the top down, you know, and.

[Jase Robertson]

He reminds me of our brother Willie.

[Phil Robertson]

He does. That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Jase Robertson]

They both are given to tangents, and so it's like they're on something and.

[Al Robertson]

Then they move on to, that is not true. And you accuse me. That's. That's not true.

[Phil Robertson]

Accusation. It's just a parallel of truth.

[Jase Robertson]

It's okay. Sometimes in life, you're in a room and a conversation comes up and you're like, what are they talking. Talking about? And everyone else knows the. The facts except the person. So it's.

[Al Robertson]

Now Willie. Willie is not. See, he's more my adversary. I was just had this conversation yesterday.

[Phil Robertson]

You know why? Because you're so much alike. I agree. That's the little secret here.

[Jase Robertson]

You're dreamers.

[Al Robertson]

I told. I told. I told. I told Chad Robichaux yesterday, who's been on our podcast many times. I said, video, Chad's a. I think he's like a black belt in jiu jitsu or some kind of.

[Phil Robertson]

Oh, he's. He's an extreme.

[Jase Robertson]

You don't have to know all the colors. And he's just.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah, he's not a man to be trifled with. That's. That's what we know about.

[Jase Robertson]

Don't run up on him in a dark alley and think you're nice to do something.

[Al Robertson]

Well, I asked him for his help because I said the last time me and Willie got into it, like, really got into it, I was about 25. He was about, I guess, however, 30 or 35. I don't know how much older he is than me. And he was talking. He was basically running his mouth like he was going to beat me up. And. And, you know, Willie's always got like, that entourage around him, so he had all his, like, young guys, like, in their. Their tea. They were teenagers. Yeah, he was. Because he was the youth minister at the time.

[Phil Robertson]

Yep.

[Al Robertson]

And I'm like, willie, you will not take. Like, I will fold you up like a pretzel. I'm not. I'm not 12 years old anymore. And of course, all the. All the kids were like, oh, no. Willie will kill You. I was like, I'm telling you, boys. And so me and Willie go outside and we. We wrestle. And I did fold him up like a pretzel until he grabbed a certain part of my body not to be named publicly on the podcast. And so there was always that.

[Phil Robertson]

I was like, I said, that's out of bounds.

[Al Robertson]

Well, I mean, the way.

[Phil Robertson]

No, the way we grew up. That's just. That's the last. That's. That's what you do to finish it off. That's the way.

[Al Robertson]

Well, I asked Chad was, is there a move to get out of that? He said, there's a move. I'll teach it to you. There's a move to get out of that.

[Jase Robertson]

Always have a move.

[Phil Robertson]

Oh, my goodness.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, we went off the rails.

[Phil Robertson]

We did. I apologize. I just.

[Al Robertson]

We're talking about marriage today. We're going to have a guest on the podcast later.

[Phil Robertson]

We are. Which I am super excited about. She's. She's going to be amazing. And I thought, because We've been in John 2 in our study, which of course included a wedding. Jesus. First miraculous sign was at the wedding. And then it goes right into this idea of the temple, which is us. And so, you know, I know she's going to bring some good insight, but one of the things I didn't get a chance to talk about when we were talking about that is our own weddings. When Lisa was here, she mentioned a little bit about ours, which was a fiasco because we planned our wedding from one week to the next, per my instruction, which, looking back on, it, was very insensitive to everybody that loves us. But at that moment, I just hadn't learned yet to care that much about other people yet. And so literally, we decided from one Friday to the next. So it was chaos even in just too small. And There were only 30 people at our wedding.

[Al Robertson]

But it was a backyard wedding.

[Phil Robertson]

It was a backyard where we got married in the preacher's living room. Lisa, you know, was. Had been kind of sort of kicked out of her house already anyway for marrying me. And so she had been staying at my grandparents until like three days before the wedding. And so she was driving our old. That old white Ford ltd. You remember, Jase? It was a big car that mom and dad own. And she ran out of gas. So my grandpa went out to help her put gas in it because she was still working, at least had a job. And he unfortunately poured kerosene into the gas tank instead of gasoline.

[Al Robertson]

Not a good idea.

[Phil Robertson]

Not a good idea. And it will start up and get going because there's a little bit of gas left in the system. But it didn't go far. So when we were going to the wedding in that car, because it now had kerosene, we made it to not quite the end of Leanden Road. Jason, if you remember this. I remember you were young and we literally were sitting on the side of.

[Jase Robertson]

The road waiting on a.

[Phil Robertson]

Waiting on a ride.

[Jase Robertson]

Waiting on a ride and a pretty.

[Phil Robertson]

To get to my wedding.

[Al Robertson]

So you were late. You both were late to your own wedding.

[Phil Robertson]

We were. Lisa had already been in town, I was late. But then my grandpa came by. He had a Ford Fiesta which was about the size of this table. I remember that little Ford Fiesta. And we all piled in there, about 10 of us, and that's how we arrived.

[Al Robertson]

That was the Prius before the Prius. That was the.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah, this was the. This was a pre Prius.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, I will confess, you could hear.

[Phil Robertson]

The gas sloshing in the tank when you reversed the car. That's how.

[Jase Robertson]

I will confess that I said the only memory I have of my state of mind was I looked at the situation and thought, I'll give this about a year.

[Al Robertson]

You'll give the wedding about. You'll get the marriage.

[Phil Robertson]

Well, I mean, the way it started.

[Jase Robertson]

I thought, what are we doing? What are we doing here?

[Phil Robertson]

But look, we were. I mean, let's just kind of. The way we were back then. Jay's had the first big wedding, like the, the fancy wedding, like the tuxedo.

[Al Robertson]

You were like, oh, yeah, it was a full blown.

[Phil Robertson]

I mean Missy has some class, but. But our family, we still were. We hadn't, you know, changed that much. So we didn't even. We weren't sure if dad would come and he did.

[Jase Robertson]

It wasn't tuxedos at my wedding. Let me clarify that. I did have a suit on and I was clean shaven.

[Al Robertson]

Yeah, you are. You're a good looking guy.

[Jase Robertson]

Back then it was kind of a, you know, bring sacrifices to the altar before we get started.

[Phil Robertson]

Well.

[Al Robertson]

My wedding, Al, you were there. You were the. You were.

[Phil Robertson]

I was one of the two officiants. We had two.

[Al Robertson]

We had two officiators of the wedding. You were the one I brought to the table.

[Phil Robertson]

Zach. I was Zach's pick. And then Jill's pastor for many years was the. Was the other guy. So if I'm not mistaken. So I did the like opening part and then he did the part like the vows and all that. Is that right? I think that's the way.

[Al Robertson]

I don't Remember. But yeah, something like that.

[Jase Robertson]

And that's something how you have trouble.

[Phil Robertson]

Who did your wedding?

[Jase Robertson]

Ray Melton. Oh, that was. Made me feel better.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

Because he was more in line with kind of how my family function.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

I mean, we had a high.

[Al Robertson]

We had a high end wedding. Like. Like, like what? Missy. Jill's like, Missy. She came from class, you know.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, that's what we did. We had the high end wedding, but we had the preacher who was kind of a country guy, right. From west Texas. And I thought he did a good job. It was. It was real. And so.

[Al Robertson]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

I mean, basically you don't really.

[Phil Robertson]

Do you remember the wedding? I mean, I remember.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah.

[Phil Robertson]

What he said. You remember stuff he said. Because most people don't.

[Jase Robertson]

I mean, I just remember it was real practical and down to earth and. But you know, I was basically staring at my wife thinking. I do think when you're a virgin and you get married, it's a different dynamic because what's fixing to happen is at the forefront of your mind. I'm just being completely honest here.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

So I'm now I was looking at her in a way of like.

[Al Robertson]

Yeah, you had a.

[Jase Robertson]

This is.

[Al Robertson]

You had another motivation.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, it wasn't even that. It's not. Y'all are going typical male. It wasn't that. It was just like said that I.

[Phil Robertson]

Imagine like going to a restaurant and just looking at a T bone steak. That's.

[Al Robertson]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

No, it's like something you fault the whole time you're dating.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah. Now we're. At the moment.

[Jase Robertson]

I literally have already signed the papers before I got up here. And so I thought technically she is my wife. It just was a weird. That was my number one thought is I thought, man, this woman is mine. And. And now I don't have that struggle. I mean, my dad, in the spirit of him. His. One of his favorite verses, which I actually had trouble finding, which by the.

[Phil Robertson]

Way, he read this verse at Sadie's wedding. This was his.

[Jase Robertson]

But everybody laughed.

[Phil Robertson]

It was great. It was great. I mean, I think only dad could deliver this.

[Jase Robertson]

But he wasn't being funny.

[Phil Robertson]

No, he was not.

[Jase Robertson]

He was.

[Al Robertson]

This was. This was meant to be encouraging.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, no, I wouldn't say that.

[Phil Robertson]

I wouldn't say that. But it was. It was just a classic.

[Al Robertson]

I remember the verse.

[Jase Robertson]

My dad got up and he said, if you marry, you have not sinned. This is First Corinthians 7:28.

[Phil Robertson]

And imagine dad hear this. And like dad doing it. It was.

[Al Robertson]

And the voice of the prophet Ezekiel.

[Jase Robertson]

And If a virgin marries, she is not sin. Of course any. Because now it's gotten awkward because everybody's thinking, what is he doing? Yeah. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life. And I want to spare you this. It was the opening line.

[Al Robertson]

As you're about to commit the rest of your life in a covenant marriage. This is feels. Hey, just so you know.

[Phil Robertson]

So it's 2025, Jase. Your words have finally hit home. It's. It was time for me to lose a few pounds and Zach's even picked up on it. Zach's going to join me. He doesn't need to lose as much as me. But Zach, you're going to lose a few as well.

[Al Robertson]

I'm going to trim up. You. You're making a drastic change, but you look great.

[Phil Robertson]

Well, thank you. And the reason this has happened is a group called PhD Weight Loss. Dr. Ashley Lucas is the founder. She's a registered dietitian. She has a PhD in sports nutrition and chronic disease. And she's got a passion for helping folks. And so she sends me a couple of emails, a couple of videos every week that I watch that are very informative. I will say that one of the differences in PhD and all the other diets I've tried is Dr. Ashley and her team do a great job of explaining exactly what is going on in your body when you're trying to burn fat. And they teach you what to eat, when to eat, they work on your relationship with food, and they show you how to lose weight for life. If you're watching this on YouTube, this is a picture of me as I began. I've been in the program now for seven weeks. I've lost 28 pounds, feel great, I'm sleeping well, I'm not hungry on the diet, which is very important. What I love about it, there's no gimmicks, no pills, no shots, no side effects. Everything is natural. It's not rabbit food. They provide about 80% of the food that I eat at no extra cost to you, which is a blessing for you guys out there. It's worth a look, especially if you're wanting to lose some pounds this year. Join me, join Zach on our weight loss journey. Schedule your one on one consultation today by calling 864-644-1900 or you can visit myphdweightloss.com that's 864-644-1900. Tell them Al and Zach sent you. Well, it's so, it's so classic, dad, because like, Sadie has this. It's this, like, she's getting married in Narnia. You know, the setup is just beautiful. There's probably, I don't know, a thousand people. Louie Giglio, like, one of our favorite pastors, is doing the wedding. And all of a sudden, here comes dear old dad with this right off the bat. And it was just a showstopper. It was so funny.

[Jase Robertson]

It was like, you know, the more I thought about it is. And we'll, you know, talk about this with our guest. But marriage is. I had no idea what this was, what was fixed to happen.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

And, you know, I thought, of course, when you're 21, you think you know.

[Phil Robertson]

Everything anyway, and you know nothing.

[Jase Robertson]

You just. There's no. I mean, we did premarital counseling, which. I've shared their story before, which they. Basically, when we did our. What do you call that compatibility test.

[Phil Robertson]

Without. Read this verse.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, the. The conclusion of our compatibility test was, don't get married.

[Phil Robertson]

You're incompatible.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah. And he was asking me how my prayer life was, and so I thought, huh. But, you know, it. It feel really that that is a point. You. You get thrust into this, and it becomes this process that's ever changing. And I really believe the more you study is that it's. You just start growing from there. And you can either grow apart or you can grow together.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

And all these. These obstacles that happen which aren't going to happen, and it's like a new normal. It's like a new normal. It's a new normal. It's a new normal. But I read that in 1 Corinthians 7. What I find interesting to go back to John 2 is, so he does this sign at this wedding, and we mention the significance of us being married to Jesus and how maybe that was a foreshadowing of new creation. So you also see that here in First Corinthians 6, right before that, the whole chapter 7 of First Corinthians, it talks about all these different arrangements, and he addresses them all. But, you know, that comes on the heels of First Corinthians 6 about the temple, your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit. And you remember six. What is that 18 that says flee from sexual immorality? All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. And then it says this. This is First Corinthians 6:19. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you've receive from God. You are not your own you are bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. Well, just like John, it went to the temple in thought, just as Jesus cleared out the temple. And then they're like, ask him for this sign that he has this authority, which is really what the beginning of John is all about. Is Jesus who he claims to be? Who do you think Jesus is and where does he get this authority? And so you see by his first two signs in quotations. Because even though the temple, you know, he just, there was no miracle in that he cleared it out. But then he makes this statement in reference to the question, what is the sign that you have authority to do this? And he said, destroy this temple and I'll raise it in three days.

[Al Robertson]

Right.

[Jase Robertson]

So you know, you fast forward to, you know, what Paul said in Ephesians 2, where it says that we didn't read this last time, but it is such a profound verse. The reason I'm going to Ephesians is because that's where we go to talk about marriage. It's the most Ephesians 5. But in Ephesians 2, when he says, you're members of God's house, household built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ himself as chief cornerstone. In him, the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

[Al Robertson]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

And so even that when you, you go through the book of Ephesians, he brings up the kingdom in chapter five and just kind of apply this to marriage. Because then in John 3, he's going to talk about being born again to see and enter the kingdom. So then he says, but among you, they're not. This is five, three. There must not be even a hint of sexual immorality or of any kind of impurity or greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, coarse joking, which are out of place. But rather than for this, you can be sure no immoral, impure, greedy person, such a man as an idolater, has any inheritance. Well, looky there in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Well, if you just apply that to your marriage. Now he's talking big picture. Us married to Christ through all of Ephesians. That's why when he gets to Ephesians 5, he lays down this foundation that Jesus, you both have an opportunity to play the role of Jesus in your roles. But then he unveils the mystery of what he's talking about all along. And it gets back to this. You both have the spirit of God. You're married to Christ. I just think it's fascinating that you see all these theme lines. And the whole point of what I'm saying is your marriage in Christ and then you being married with another person should reflect the image of God.

[Phil Robertson]

Right?

[Al Robertson]

I mean, well, and not just the image of God too. It also is reflective. I love how you connected that passage on the temple with Ephesians 5. What does marriage have to do with the temple? Has everything to do with it. Because he says, I'm not talking about marriage. I'm talking about basically our union with Christ. So when you think about what Jesus is saying in John 2, it's the union of God and man in a new temple structure, with Jesus being the cornerstone, us being the living stones. Marriage is a picture of that because it's the, it's the mingling of souls. It's the, it's the two coming into one. And so you, you see this as a centerpiece really, of, of the entire biblical story that God is going to make his home with man. And marriage is a reflection of that because you're seeing true intimacy being fulfilled in the marriage.

[Phil Robertson]

Well, and you're also seeing Paul. Remember, he's riding a fault line here between the Jewish mindset that he's been a part of and now this gentile mindset that comes in. This is like two rivers coming together. So when he's describing in Corinthians and Ephesians, he's also speaking to the same exact thing of temple and coming together, husband and wife. But he's speaking to one group that had a whole betrothal process. Everybody was a Hebrew, they understood Yahweh, along with all these people that had no semblance of that whatsoever.

[Al Robertson]

So it's really interesting, which is Paul's point in First Corinthians 6 is, is the point is the part. The problem with sexual sin is it's not a violation of some arbitrary commandment that God gave us. What it does, it's anti trinitarian, it's anti temple, because your body, if you understand your body to be the new temple, we are living stones. Then when I unite myself with another person, I become one with that person. And that's, that's the argument Paul's making.

[Phil Robertson]

All right, we're going to land this plane. We've got, we've got our guest coming on, so we're going to take a break. When we come back, we'll introduce our guest for.

[Al Robertson]

Well, guys, here's what I've Learned in my 47 years is this is that life is moving quickly and my kids are getting older. Every time I look at them, amazing how quick they're growing up. You guys are both grandpas now, so I'm sure you see the same thing. Correct.

[Phil Robertson]

I actually have a granddaughter that got married, so I'm just, you know, at any moments notice from being a great grandfather, Zach. So yes, it went by super fast.

[Al Robertson]

Well, one of the things about being a dad, and I guess a granddad too, is you do think a lot about taking care of your family, providing for them, giving them protection. And life insurance is one of those things that in my opinion is you got to do it, you got to provide them protection in case something happens to you. That's where our friends at Fabric by Gerber Life come in. It's a term policy insurance you can get done right from your couch, all online and all on your schedule. You could be covered in just under 10 minutes with no health exam required. If you've got kids, especially if you're young and healthy, now's the time to lock in your low rates. Even if you have life insurance through your employer, it may not be enough to offer protection for you and your family and it may not follow you if you leave your job. So Fabric has flexible, high quality policies that fit your family and your budget, like a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. Fabric has partnered with Gerber Life, trusted by millions of families like yours for over 50 years. There's no risk. There's a 30 day money back guarantee and you can cancel at any time. They have over 19005 star reviews on Trustpilot with a rating of excellent. Fabric is design busy parents like you and it's more than just life insurance. They have free digital wills, access to investment accounts to invest for your kids future and more. And you can manage it all right from your phone. So join thousands of parents who have trusted Fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just [e-mail] unashamed. That's meatfabric.com unashamed M E E T fabric.com unashamed policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states and prices are subject to underwriting and health questions. Our guest is here, Lisa Bravir. Lisa, welcome. How are you doing?

[Lisa Bevere]

I'm doing great. Slightly jet lagged, so I'm not sure what's going to come out, but I, I'm, I'm up for it because you.

[Al Robertson]

Were at the same conference I was at in London, but we never Crossed paths there, unfortunately.

[Lisa Bevere]

Yeah. There was 4,000 people. That was. That was amazing. 4,000 smart people.

[Phil Robertson]

That's why Jason. I didn't get him.

[Jase Robertson]

Yep. I didn't get the invite. So we just found out.

[Phil Robertson]

Thank you, Lisa, for clearing that up. I was like, why didn't we get to go to Let it. Oh, it's for only smart people. Okay. We got.

[Al Robertson]

You had to be invited. A special invitation only, but I could have got you guys in.

[Phil Robertson]

No, no, no, no.

[Lisa Bevere]

Next year. Next year.

[Al Robertson]

Elisa and your husband, John Bevere. You guys have a podcast, written a ton of books. I don't know. How many books have you guys written collectively? I know. It's a lot.

[Lisa Bevere]

40.

[Jase Robertson]

Oh.

[Al Robertson]

Oh, wow.

[Phil Robertson]

Wow.

[Al Robertson]

Sold millions of copies all over the world. You guys have been in ministry for a long time. A beautiful voice in. In this cultural moment. So we're glad to have you here.

[Lisa Bevere]

I'm super excited to be on. You guys are my dynamic. I am the mother of four men and, of course, the wife of one man. So men is my world. So I love that.

[Al Robertson]

Lisa, you've referred to yourself when I asked you, how do we introduce you? You refer to yourself as the Sicilian godmother, so that's how we'll introduce you to our audience.

[Lisa Bevere]

Well, you know, my husband is Italian, and I'm Sicilian, and how we distinguish those two is Italians are known for feeding people and I would even say dressing them, but Sicilians are known for killing people. So we have a little bit of a different approach to parenting and lives.

[Phil Robertson]

When, if you have four boys and a lot of grandkids, you're doing a lot of cooking. I know that at some point, the process. That's the way.

[Lisa Bevere]

That is not a lie. Pasta. Pasta, yes.

[Al Robertson]

So we were going to talk about marriage, but I'm not sure where this is going to go now. So, yeah, we. We had started the conversation before you got here. We're in John 2. We were talking about the connection human body to marriage, the union of souls. 1 Corinthians 6. Your body's a temple, the Holy Spirit. You have a podcast, I think, coming out pretty soon on marriage, an episode on marriage. So we were going to kind of pick your brain a little bit. Al and Lisa do marriage ministry as well. Al, what? You. You guys just came off an event, right?

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah, we did a. We have a yearly marriage refresh. We do for our church, but it's kind of expanded, you know, because we have such an impact because of this podcast and other reasons. So we got people that come from all over the country for a couple of weekends. And, you know, it's just really neat. Lisa and I usually are a part of it. Sometimes we do some teaching. This time we did a little bit of our story. And one of the things, Lisa, that I was very interested in, and I haven't read any books yet that you've written, but I'm excited to do that is, you know, we talk a lot about sort of the trauma of our own lives as individuals and how the way we describe it is, you know, we came into marriage and we have this picture of like this giant pile of suitcases. And we said we just brought all these suitcases in, but instead of really opening, opening them up and, and kind of seeing what was all in there, we just kind of stuffed them in every available crawl space of our marriage. And then all of a sudden it was like a spring trap that came about, you know, for us about the 15 year mark, where all these things just came rushing out and almost destroyed us. I mean, it was just like a tsunami of difficulty. Lisa was, had been molested as a child. She had an abortion as a teenager. I had been a prodigal and gotten into all sorts of stuff myself. And so all that flood just came out in our relationship and it almost destroyed us. Except for the. Obviously the blood of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the only thing that saved us. But I was just interested to hear because I know, like Zach said, you recently did a podcast on marriage. Have you found that to be true in your walk in terms of people and how this early trauma in their lives have affected, you know, how they. How they get married and how they stay married?

[Lisa Bevere]

Absolutely. And, you know, crawl spaces are scary spaces. So definitely if you put something in a crawl space, it's not going to stay there long. No. John and I have some similar stories. I don't know if you've ever heard John talk about this, but John was addicted to pornography. And so he thought getting married was going to fix that. He thought, okay, I'll get married and then that will fix it. And then I brought my. My own issues to our marriage. I had been raised to be an exceptional heathen. And so I was, you know, trying out for the University of Arizona sexually gymnastics team. I mean, I was just like full on heathen heard about the love of God. And actually John illegally dated me. He invited me to a Bible study picnic. I heard free food. I go to this picnic. I hear about that. When God looks at me, he would no longer see me, but he would see Jesus. And I realized that I was covered in shame. And so I interrupted John while he was singing awkwardly in 1981, this was not the best Christian music season. And I said, hey, is this true? Is this true that God could ever look at me and not see me? And John was like, absolutely. And we went walking on Purdue's campus. He starts witnessing to me. I interrupt him. I think that 70s thief of the night movie's gonna happen. John's gonna disappear. I'm gonna get beheaded. I'm like, I need to do this thing right now. On my first date with John, I got born again. I got saved. I was like, I don't know what we need to do. Light candles. Like, what needs to happen needs to happen right now. And you know, I got born again. And then John said, now you're saved. I said, what does that even mean? And he had no idea he was Talking to a 21 year old girl who had an eating disorder, who had lactose intolerance, who had so much sexual shame. And he said, well, salvation means you're whole again, spirit, soul and body. And I don't know why I picked the easiest one, but I said, so I can have cheese now that I'm a Christian? You said I could have cheese? He said, I never said that. He said, I never said that. I want cheese. I want cheese. I'm Italian. I want cheese. And so he was so nervous, guys, he had me do a fill in the blank prayer, which looks like, thank you, Jesus, for healing me of. And I just put the word in lactose intolerance. And I felt this love come into my body and untie all the knots that have been in my stomach since I was 15. And I was completely healed. I mean, crazy amazing, but there are certain things that God's like, I'm gonna do this one. I'm gonna do this one for you. But then there's others. You're gonna have to walk out. And it's interesting though, you're talking about. I think there's two of my most popular podcasts. One is on demons. I'm like, who knew 500,000 views about the demonic? And then the second one was about how I almost destroyed our marriage. How. How my fear and my need to control and. And I did not walk well with my husband from a place of bondage to freedom. You know, John, John, often, as people say, what was, what was Lisa's response to, you know, your wrestling with that? Because that was the first four years of our marriage. And I always, when people ask Me, I say, I didn't navigate it well. I did not. I did not. I did not come to my husband and say, I believe you want to change, and I'll support you. I shamed him. And so many women make this mistake. They say, oh, if my husband has a problem with pornography, that's his problem. What was his problem before you got married? Now it's your problem. It's not that you caused it. It's not that, uh, you're less than. But when something comes into a marriage, then the two become one. They need to fight it together. And so I wish I would have. I wish I would have been there for him on that. I wasn't. I had. Was dealing with my own issues of shame, of thinking, well, because I had been promiscuous, why would I think I deserved anything better? And so the first four years of our marriage were very broken years. You. You made it longer than we did. We exploded. Year four. And I'd had my first baby. And. And. And here's. Here's the thing. You know, I was working full time. John was working part time. I have. I have this beautiful child. I am breastfeeding him. You know, I'm pumping my breasts at work. I'm crazy woman. I'm making all the food. My shoulders are attached to my ears. I'm all stressed out, and I'm nagging my husband. I'm thinking, this man doesn't do anything. And one day I'm in the shower because I'm trying to release the tension in my shoulders, and I literally hear this question. You don't think John's a good head of the household, do you? I thought, no, I know he's not. And I hear you think you can do it better. I was like, I know I am doing it better. And then I heard, but it's a yoke to you, Lisa, and it's a mantle to John. Throw it off.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah.

[Lisa Bevere]

And then all of a sudden, I don't know if you've ever had this happen where you. You have been so demeaning or hateful. And you thought in the moment you were funny or wise. It was like a replay. And I just started crying. And I. I remember I. I threw on a robe. I went to John. I said, listen, I am so sorry. I thought submission meant that if I agreed with you, I did it. And if not, I fought you tooth and nail every. Every inch of the way. And I said, I will quit my job tomorrow. I said, I always want to be one again. And John said, I Don't think you need to quit your job. But I do think you need to quit thinking you're the source.

[Phil Robertson]

Wow.

[Lisa Bevere]

Because we can know that God is the source or we think we're the source. And I watched my husband go from a little boy that I nagged like a mother to a man that I respected as a leader when I stopped being his mother and I started to be his wife.

[Phil Robertson]

Wow. So good. So I read this story about Alex, who is from Armenia. And this is one of those personal stories from Tomorrow Clubs, the tough countries. A lot of tough things going on. There's a 13 year old named Alex. Every day sells popcorn and ice cream just to try to help his family survive. And he joined a Tomorrow Club. And he didn't just hear about Jesus, but he learned how to follow him. That's the beauty of what this program does. It helps people in the worst possible situations not only see a way to something better, but a way to be able to share Jesus with other people.

[Al Robertson]

There's over a billion children in the world that are growing up in spiritual darkness having never heard the gospel. But Tomorrow Clubs is helping the gospel reach those children and all these nations. Tomorrow Clubs provide practical life skills like English lessons, career counseling to help kids embrace their faith. Over half a million children have learned to follow Jesus through Tomorrow Clubs. And this really does align with, with our vision. At Unashamed. We believe in long term discipleship, relationships, partnering with local churches. We haven't given up on the local church. So if you want to help, want to be a part of this with us, visit TomorrowClubs.org Unashamed to become a Tomorrow Clubs ministry partner today and help us hit our goal of 1200 new Tomorrow Clubs members this month. For only $30 a month, you will be providing Christ centered discipleship to 30 children in an underserved community. That's TomorrowClubs.org Unashamed. And remember, all gifts are tax deductible. Wow, what a word for people. I mean that, that what you just said is almost. It's very similar to the experience me and my wife Jill had. I call it our Jerry Maguire moment. Because, you know, there's a scene in Jerry Maguire where she walks in, Renee Zellwinger says, you complete me. And then that's like this thing, right? And I'm like, that was how we approached our marriage was. I felt like I had to bear the weight of Jill's completion myself. And I think she probably felt it in some regard, but I would never have felt safe to Share with her any struggle with a porn or lust or anything that would make her feel less than that was a. That would never be shared with her. But the Bible is pretty clear when. When James says, James 5, confess your sins to one another so that you may be healed. But I'm not going to confess that to my wife. But that's the exact person you need to confess to. But it was in a moment we had at seven years in, where it was a realization that, you know what? I cannot complete you. And I think we had this moment. I remember where we were at. We were in my vehicle, my car, and we had this big fight, and I finally just said, I can't complete you. Like, I can't. Like, I can't bear the weight of sustaining your stability anymore. And. And. And most importantly, I want to be. I want to be known, and I want to be one, but I can't be known because I can't share with you anything. And it was like a moment in our marriage where it was for the first time probably in seven years ever, that she saw me in a moment, and I saw her in a moment. And there was this not affirmation of our sin, but there was this presence that, like, I see your sin. I see your nakedness, I see your disgustingness. And I'm not leaving. I'm here. And it was a moment like a weight was lifted off my shoulder. A weighted performance. I think what you just articulated is probably the biggest barrier to intimacy in marriages across the globe, is exactly what you just articulated.

[Lisa Bevere]

Well, and I do think there's been an emasculation of men and women trying to be men. And I mean, we've had this gender confusion as far as. I don't even like to use that word anymore. We've gotten our roles confused where men have been shamed into trying to be more like women. Women have been told, if you want to be powerful as a woman, act like a man. And so now we've got all these confused things. And then if my husband. I love my husband. I have the best husband in the world. I always tell John, you are my favorite husband. He's like, I'm your only one. This version. This version, John 2.031, whatever. This is my favorite. But the truth is, John is not my source of life. Yeah, I love being a mother. There's nothing I love more than being a mother and a grandmother. But my grandchildren and my children aren't my source of life if I do not get my life from Jesus. Yes, yes. Yes, I've written books. Yes. You know, I'm a New York Times best selling author. Do you know what happens when that happens? Nothing. You get an email, that's it. If you live your whole life for some kind of achievement, you will live empty. And there comes a place where you realize that, you know, I, I live my husband to serve Jesus and serve him. I mean, just even, even it was so shocking to me. And I'm women, they want to be loved. But I think I just posted something about marriage is two people committed to bringing out the best in one another. Whereas early on in our marriage we're trying to best one another. And women say things like, well, what if my husband's not committed to bringing out the best in me? I'm like, be the bigger person. I mean they, it's like people are so self centered. So like it needs to be about me, my needs, my dreams, my hopes. Well, there's no just me anymore. Once you get married, it's a one and, and, and it's, it's just, it's so sad because so many people are missing the richness of marriage. John. And I've been married 43 years this year and I love it more now than I did when I married him.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah. And that's exactly the way I feel.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, I've been married 34 and I think all this conversation takes me back to the garden and you see, you know, God as the architect of marriage and being real specific of, you know, it's like when President Trump signed this executive order declaring two genders. And I guess this hit me. I think I had Fox News up and it was like, breaking news. The President has declared the United States male and female. And I looked at my wife and I said that news broke thousands of years ago in a Bible.

[Phil Robertson]

Lisa, Jason and I are lobbying for a new cryon on the bottom of Fox News or any of them that says broken news. Yeah, because this news has already been broken.

[Jase Robertson]

And but what I was going to.

[Phil Robertson]

Say, which by the way, Jesus, when he was addressed about marriage, actually about divorce. Matthew 19, guess where you at right where you're going.

[Jase Robertson]

And I, I think I know why. I mean God is eternal and, and he knew that there's always going to be resistance, especially in the spiritual forces of evil, which is why I think your demon podcast did well. Well, because people know that it's out there. I mean all you got to do is declare Jesus as Lord. And I listened to a couple of your podcasts just in prep of this and I thought, oh, there's going to be resistance because you're out loud and on purpose for Jesus, like we are. But there's also resistance in marriage. And it makes me go back to that Genesis 2 and 3 scene where you really see, because we tend to have the Hollywood view of, oh, I came to Christ. So now everything's going to be fantastic, you know, until a couple days later when you face resistance and it becomes a process and a struggle that helps you grow and mature in Christ. But it's going to continue to happen. And the same thing happens in marriage. And then you see both of these things happening in the garden where you're like, where was the breakdown here? Because here's Eve having a toxic conversation with a demonic presence, the evil one. Because I'm like, well, where's Adam in all this? Why is he. Well, he's over there silent. Yeah, why didn't you step up? And then the famous line when it's like, did God really say from the evil one? Which is always going to be the question that we have to ask ourselves in marriage and in our walk with Christ. And that's where I really see these two things combining that you're hitting on. I mean, it is a daily walk as we mature and grow in our relationship, our marriage. And we all have those, those conflictual stories. You know, my background, they've shared theirs now. We were different. We were virgins when we got married. We, we basically had a Jesus centered dating relationship. And I tell people that because I use it to tell young people that God's way is always the best way. Because I wish I'd had somebody tell me it's okay not to have sex with a woman till you get married. Because all my friends were ridiculing me about that. I mean, it was just completely horrible. But so I try to give young people, you know, encouragement that. But having said that, so you would think, oh, it's all going to be rainbows and oh no. I mean, all of a sudden I go out the first year of our marriage and share Jesus with everybody that I know and you think, well, what could happen? Well, I just left her. I mean, our first year was terrible as far as our marriage because she was like, boy, you're really on fire for the Lord, but I'm getting the worst of you when you come back and you're tired. So it was a terrible way to start our marriage. At some point we realize we're going to have to do this together, right? And so you work it out through the 34 years. But I was just going to get your take on how those two things go together in that there's always a struggle in your walk with the Lord and in your marriage.

[Lisa Bevere]

Yeah, I mean, I think. I think you're actually painting a very accurate picture of some of the things that we went through. My husband being a minister, it was almost like a badge of honor to say I was only home three days this month and I have this many miles on my flights. And I told John, you know, we get you at your worst. You come home and it's a laundry drop and, you know, you're tired, you're grumpy with the boys. And, you know, I used to say, so when do you leave again? And he'd be like, why are you saying that? I'd be like, because it's easier when you're gone. And so we had to. We had to actually have some conversations around that to keep that a priority. So I'm not allowed to travel and speak unless John approves my schedule and I approve his. So when he gets invited, it gets sent to me and I see his schedule and then we talk it over. I have, I think, 48 hours to either talk to him about it or approve. If I don't answer, then it's an automatic approve. But we always sit down and we say, okay, this is what this looks like. If you go on this trip or if I go on this trip, we will not see each other for 10 days. Are we okay with that? And then we're like, okay, we're okay with that. If we can make margin over here for us.

[Phil Robertson]

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[Jase Robertson]

I actually own chairs of Oracle. I bought this company years ago in my portfolio. And like a lot of companies, they have a lot of companies within the companies, and one of them happens to be NetSuite.

[Phil Robertson]

So what NetSuite is all about is trying to help you see into the future. And let's face it, that becomes the bellwether for business is can you somehow know what's about to happen? And that's what they help us do. They've helped over 40,000 businesses have a future proofed business with NetSuite by Oracle. They're the number one cloud ERP. They bring accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform with one unified business management suite. That means there's only one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions with Real time insights and forecasting. You're peering into the future, but you're doing it with actionable data. When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards, more time on what's next. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. Jays I wish we had had netsuite in the early days of Duck Commander. Would have made a big difference. Speaking of opportunity, we want you to download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com Phil the guide is free to you at netsuite.com Phil Check them out. Netsuite.com Phil.

[Lisa Bevere]

And so we've made our time together a priority. And again, we're empty nesters. But I already mentioned John's Italian, I'm Sicilian. We have six of our nine grandkids down the street. We walk down the street almost every single night, read books to grandkids, kiss them good night. We want to be close to family, but we also want our kids to be able to build their own family. So we're watching our kids do it better because of our mistakes. I want to tell you guys this crazy story because I feel like it fits into what's going on behind the marriage. So I live here in Franklin, Tennessee. It's a Christian bubble and there's a coffee shop. And I was interviewing someone for a job and I decided to wear this T shirt that said the future is male and female. And the men were like looking at me smiling like, thank you, thank you for including us in the future. I'm like, you're welcome. I had some women come up to me and they're like, I want that T shirt. So I thought, okay, everybody's happy. So I put on sunglasses and I take a selfie and I write. The future is male and female. And because without male and female, there is no future. And that's not really deep. That's just your parents. And so I think in everybody's happy. 922 comments later people have blown up my social media. You are co signing with patriarchy. You're a Karen, which as a I have dual citizenship with Italy. I'm like, you just called me a Karen, a bigot, a demon of hate, a transphobe, a homophobe. Just all this. I mean, any possible name that you can think of. I got called it. Then the Christians were fighting with the people for calling me names. And, and it was, it was so Much that I thought anytime there is something this disproportionately responded to, there is something more behind it. So I just typed into my computer and you guys could do this Google search. What is the origin of the quote, the future is female. And a Washington Post article came up and it was from, I believe, 2015, but it might have been 16. And it was from. It said, the origin of the quote, the future is female, was from a lesbian separatist group called Labrys. And I thought, what in the world is Labrys? Well, Labrys is the two headed axe carried by the Greek and Roman goddesses. And then it said that the quote, the future is female. I mean, this is crazy. Was a call to war, an invocation and a spell to cast. And Hillary brought it into her campaign. 25% of the proceeds, not profits, go to Planned Parenthood. So they have blood sacrifice, they have witchcraft, they have a call to war. And so there has been a spiritual attack. And if you go back to the roots of all of this, it's always deconstruction of the family, deconstruction of marriage. I had no idea, as I deep dived into some of these topics that. And this is. This is crazy. In 1969, 12 women got together in Greenwich Village. And they said, why are we here today? And they said, to make a revolution. They said, what kind of revolution? Cultural revolution. How do we make this revolution? They said, by destroying the American family. And they said, how do we destroy the American family? By destroying the American patriarch. This is way back in the 60s. And they said, and how do we destroy the American patriarch? They said, by taking away his power. And I thought, okay, how are they going to take away his power? By destroying monogamy. They understand that God sent the motion in the garden when God said, it's not good for man to be alone. They understood that male and female was a power union. So they said, okay, we got to figure out a way to separate the man and the woman. And then they said, how do we destroy monogamy? They said, we will promote promiscuity, prostitution, eroticism, which will be pornography and homosexuality. And then they went on to form now the National Organization of Women. That is terrifying. That the feminist agenda in the United States. I'm not talking about early days when they said, let's make sure we can all vote. And the feminist agenda. They had achieved their votes. They had achieved this. Now, their goal was a Marxist deconstruction of the family. And Zach, you and I were there listening. How. What was the Whole purpose of our. We need to restore the family. We need to restore Judeo Christian ethics. And so they have been so systematic. And this was something that was always shocking to me when I was writing the Fight for Female. When I was looking at who was supporting the trans movement was women. Like, they were okay with young girls being displaced in sports. They were okay with female prisoners being raped by guys who had decided to identify as women. And I thought, why are they silent? Well, it's because it supported their agenda that they had started way back in the late 60s.

[Al Robertson]

Ironically. They're not all silent now though. Like J.K. rollins taking quite a bit of heat as kind of a member of the third wave feminism.

[Lisa Bevere]

She's like the only one.

[Al Robertson]

Yeah, but, but, but, but the irony is is that, that, that what? But the future is female. The truth is, is that mentality actually is the destruction of what is female in the end. That's the irony of the whole thing, is that Carl Truman talks about this, which I had on my other podcast. Yeah, recently. Yeah, he's great. And he talked about. He calls it a death work. And I think that's the look at the end result of this. These are death works and, and what Christ has come to give his life. It's one of those moments that the, at the meeting we were at, I thought was so profound when Oz Guinness got up and essentially because a lot of people are talking about Jesus or the, the Judeo Christian ethic is the hope. And he got up and said, well, only if one thing is true. Only if Jesus is the son of God, you know, buried and killed and buried and resurrected like he. It has to be true. And it is true. But Christ being center is the hope. Christ being who he is is our hope. And I, that's why I always have an optimistic view of the future, simply because I know who the king is and I know who wins. Who wins this thing.

[Jase Robertson]

The king.

[Al Robertson]

The king and his kingdom win in the end.

[Lisa Bevere]

Well, the great news is he's already won. I mean, Jesus was a lamb slain. Well, what was so crazy? After I looked all this up, my front door opened. I mentioned I lived down the street from my grandkids, which I think this is what happens. 14 year old grandson says, can I have a snack? His parents say, no. He gets on his bike, rides down to grandma's house, walks into my pantry. I say, yes, you can have whatever you want. So he's rifling through my pantry and I look at him and I said, asher, what are your thoughts on the quote, the future is female. And he just looked at me and he said that I'm unnecessary. And they are saying the suicide rate for 24 to 35 year old men has never been higher because of exactly that. They have been told they are unnecessary. And you know, all of the toxic masculinity, all of the shaming of what it means to be a man, distortion of what it means to be a woman. For me this is an attack on the image of God. And so I'm very outspoken about the sanctity of life and the image of God in male and female.

[Phil Robertson]

Now every time we look at things that wonder how could this philosophy occur, what you described, how could something like that be birthed? We all know it had to come from the evil one. Only he could devise plans like this that not just happened in a decade, but happened over the course of a series of decades. And so what you were describing in the 60s, Jace was living out in the 80s by all of his peers saying, well, you're an idiot if you save yourself for marriage. So I think it's all the things that you described. Lisa, I realize we've got to have you back on because as always, the best podcasts are the ones we can't believe. We're out of time, which we are. But I want our folks to, to know how to find your information, your books. I have here, Lisa Bevere.com is that the best place to go to find your information?

[Lisa Bevere]

Yeah, I mean we've got lisbeer.com but we're. I'm on Instagram, Facebook. I can't even get into my own account on Facebook, but there is a Facebook and there's of course Twitter. I mostly also believe YouTube. I, I have found so much freedom where you don't have to do these tiny short clips. So having a little bit of an opportunity for longer form content on YouTube and then our books are available on.

[Phil Robertson]

Amazon so check out Lisa and John and what they're doing their podcast. Lisa, thank you for coming on Unashamed. You fit in beautifully here and you're always welcome back. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast and don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.