Ep 1054 | Jase Accidentally Takes a 6 Day Vacation & Now He Must Pay the Price!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 1054 | Jase Accidentally Takes a 6 Day Vacation & Now He Must Pay the Price!

Podcast Information:

• Title: Unashamed with the Robertson Family
• Host/Author: Tread Lively
• Episode: Ep 1054
• Release Date: March 10, 2025

Overview: In Episode 1054 of Unashamed with the Robertson Family, hosts Phil Robertson, Jase Robertson, and Zach Dasher delve into a mix of personal anecdotes and deep biblical discussions. The episode primarily revolves around unexpected mishaps in event planning, leading into an in-depth analysis of biblical scriptures, particularly focusing on the meaning of being "born of water and spirit" as mentioned in John 3. Alongside, the hosts explore the symbolic significance of water in various biblical events, drawing parallels to personal experiences and spiritual applications.

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1. Event Planning Mishaps and Personal Reflections

Timestamp: [00:00] – [05:38]

The episode begins with light-hearted banter as Jase Robertson shares a humorous anecdote about his father's B2B marketing jargon during his school career day, followed by promotional segments for LinkedIn.

Key Discussion:

• Phil Robertson recounts a recent "getting older" moment where his wife, Lisa, checks her email during dinner, leading to a conversation about giving undivided attention to guests. He emphasizes the importance of being present during social interactions.

  Phil Robertson [01:12]: "I turn my phone off when we have people over, but that's a very good quality... you get my undivided attention."

• Zach Dasher shares his experience of his email being non-functional for six days, which caused him to miss important communications and event dates. This mishap becomes a springboard for discussing patience and reliance on the Holy Spirit during unexpected challenges.

  Zach Dasher [01:59]: "Six days. So... I've been putting out those fires for two days."

• Phil and Zach discuss the repercussions of miscommunication, highlighting Phil’s own mistake in event scheduling, which Phil attributes to human error amidst technological challenges.

  Phil Robertson [03:40]: "That's exactly what you're talking about... we got the wrong dates. But I went back and looked this morning, and every communication I got from these people... but guess who had the wrong dates? Me."

2. Deep Dive into Biblical Interpretation: "Born of Water and Spirit"

Timestamp: [05:38] – [27:55]

Transitioning from personal stories, the hosts engage in a robust theological discussion centered around John 3:16-21, exploring the complex interpretation of being "born of water and spirit."

Key Points:

• Understanding Scriptural Context:

  Zach Dasher [06:09]: "But Zach thinks it's two different events. Whatever, right?"

  Zach emphasizes the importance of contextual reading, noting that the synergy of 41 authors over 4,000 years contributes to the Bible's depth and complexity.

• Human Element in Scripture:

  Zach Dasher [07:13]: "And it wasn't like the thought that hit me was they weren't like, mind controlled... they were carried along by the Holy Spirit, but they inserted their human what they had been reading..."

  The discussion underscores that while the Bible is divinely inspired, it is conveyed through flawed human beings, allowing for diverse perspectives without compromising the scriptures' inerrancy.

• Different Interpretations of Baptism:

  The hosts present multiple interpretations of "born of water and spirit," debating whether it refers to physical birth, the Red Sea crossing, or Christian baptism.

  Zach Dasher [20:06]: "Jase, I believe it's option two and three. The context is this Red Sea occurrence with the waters dividing then the Holy Spirit..."

  Zach introduces a fourth option, suggesting a blend of historical events and spiritual significance, aligning baptism with the Red Sea metaphor.

3. Exodus 14 and the Red Sea: A Symbolic Parallel

Timestamp: [27:55] – [54:22]

The conversation transitions to an analysis of Exodus 14, where the Israelites cross the Red Sea, drawing parallels between this event and Christian baptism.

Key Insights:

• Detailed Scripture Reading:

  Phil and Zach meticulously read through Exodus 14:1-16, highlighting God's intervention in liberating the Israelites through the miraculous parting of the Red Sea.

  Phil Robertson [33:37]: "Pharaoh will think, the Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert..."

• Symbolism of Water and Liberation:

  Zach connects the Red Sea event to the concept of liberation from sin, likening the Israelites' passage through the sea to the spiritual rebirth Christians experience through baptism.

  Zach Dasher [30:48]: "What happens when you jump in the sea? You drown... It's like the Red Sea moment."

• Galatians and Spiritual Application:

  Drawing from Galatians 3:26, the hosts discuss being "baptized into Christ" and wearing Christ, reinforcing the idea that baptism signifies a transformative union with Jesus.

  Zach Dasher [43:19]: "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus... have clothed yourselves with Christ."

• Comparative Analysis:

  They explore how different biblical events involving water (e.g., Creation, the Flood, Joshua crossing the Jordan) consistently symbolize significant spiritual transitions, reinforcing their argument for baptism's deeper meaning.

  Jase Robertson [51:18]: "There's other, like, water stories... Flowering trees, shrubs..."

4. Addressing Common Misinterpretations and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: [54:22] – [55:27]

As time constraints loom, the hosts address potential misunderstandings of their theological stance and invite listeners to continue the discussion in future episodes.

Key Takeaways:

• Clarifying Baptism's Meaning:

  The hosts reiterate that baptism transcends mere physical symbolism, embodying a profound spiritual transformation aligned with biblical narratives of liberation and new beginnings.

  Zach Dasher [54:06]: "What is saving us... It's what saved us."

• Future Discussions:

  They acknowledge the complexity of the topic and express intent to delve deeper into related scriptures and applications in subsequent episodes.

  Zach Dasher [54:22]: "I think this becomes an important part one... it's such a hard thing to wrap your head around."

• Encouragement for Listeners:

  The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to engage with the content, pray for the hosts, and stay tuned for upcoming discussions that promise further exploration of faith and scripture.

  Phil Robertson [55:27]: "So we can pick this discussion up next time on Unashamed."

---

Notable Quotes:

1. Phil Robertson on Undivided Attention:

   "I turn my phone off when we have people over, but that's a very good quality... you get my undivided attention."
   [01:12]

2. Zach Dasher on Email Mishap:

   "Six days. So... I've been putting out those fires for two days."
   [01:59]

3. Zach Dasher on Biblical Inspiration:

   "They were carried along by the Holy Spirit, but they inserted their human what they had been reading..."
   [07:13]

4. Phil Robertson on Scriptural Errors:

   "I realized one day I had done it. Within hit me in a moment."
   [19:00]

5. Zach Dasher on Baptism and the Red Sea:

   "It's like the Red Sea moment... just jump in the Red Sea and I'm going to part the waters."
   [51:18]

---

Conclusion: Episode 1054 of Unashamed with the Robertson Family offers a compelling blend of personal anecdotes and theological exploration. The mishap in event planning serves as a relatable entry point into a profound discussion on biblical symbolism, particularly the significance of baptism as a spiritual rebirth akin to the Israelites' crossing of the Red Sea. Through thoughtful dialogue, the hosts encourage listeners to deepen their understanding of scripture, emphasizing the harmonious interplay between historical events and spiritual truths.

Transcript

[Jase Robertson]

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career Day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit.

[Phil Robertson]

That's LinkedIn.com results. Twitter terms and conditions apply.

[Jase Robertson]

LinkedIn, the place to be. To be.

[Zach Dasher]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Phil Robertson]

Welcome back to Unashamed. Jay's.

[Zach Dasher]

Welcome back.

[Phil Robertson]

It's good to be back. Yeah, I had the, you know, you know, you're getting older moment last night. So we had some friends over, and Lisa gets a email right in the middle of dinner, which. I don't know why she was checking her email. I don't know. Maybe something popped up. I turn my phone off when we have people over, but that's a very good quality. Yeah, I just don't. Like. Like, I figure if you come to my house or if I go to your house, then you get my undivided attention, so.

[Jase Robertson]

You said you turn your phone off.

[Phil Robertson]

Turn it off.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

I didn't know you turned your phone on. I. I think I've probably caught.

[Phil Robertson]

I think. I think you're figuring it out. Zach, you have a lot of people over.

[Zach Dasher]

I am the worst, by design, of, like, getting back, but I do if it's important. And what I mean by important, if it's anything related to Jesus or the Bible.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah.

[Zach Dasher]

Because I have multiple Bible studies going on that never. I don't know when they began. I guess I could scroll on my phone and see when they began. I guess most of them began at their new birth, but, you know, there may be three days before I get back to you. Yeah. Because that's what I tell folks.

[Phil Robertson]

I'm like, just be patient with me.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, you know what? I realized yesterday that my email wasn't working.

[Phil Robertson]

How long did it take you to realize that's the question?

[Zach Dasher]

Six days. So.

[Phil Robertson]

So, Maddie, I would probably know after two.

[Zach Dasher]

That's why I haven't been in the loop. And what's weird about my email is it. It was designed by, you know, El Commander or whatever. So these people. I don't. I don't see these people.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah, I'm not even sure those people are in this facility.

[Zach Dasher]

I don't. I don't know.

[Phil Robertson]

They're probably some other place there's some.

[Zach Dasher]

Group in a small room somewhere making these types of decisions. And I've never crossed the ocean to that room. And so I finally realized, you know, I was like, boy, some. Some of these people might already give me a heads up. Well, I've. So my wife, my lovely wife, greatest woman in the world, she walked me through how I. I basically had to just kind of reset my password or whatever it was. I don't know. So anyway, I missed a lot of breaking news and places I was supposed to be, things I was supposed to do. So I've been putting out those fires for two days.

[Phil Robertson]

Well, that's exactly what happened to me. Not because of that, but. So these folks up at Camp Calvary, Mackville, Kentucky, good people. I spoke there, I think, two years ago, and they had booked us for an event. Their guy Jordan, who came through here, he actually had dinner at my house. So he said, I want you guys to come to a marriage event. Great. We did it. We did it through our booking people. And then we had the date. I had it written down, but somewhere in the process. And I admit mine is a little bit antiquated, but we got the wrong dates. But I went back and looked this morning, and every communication I got from these people, we got from the booking people was all the correct dates. But guess who had the wrong dates? Me. And I think I did it. Not Lisa. And so that's the worst when you.

[Jase Robertson]

Realize, oh, I'm the problem.

[Phil Robertson]

Exactly.

[Zach Dasher]

I'm going to make a spiritual application to this at some point. But before I do, I mean. Cause I think the spiritual application will make you feel better.

[Phil Robertson]

Well, I hope so, because I'm gonna.

[Zach Dasher]

Make you feel better today. But. So I was supposed to promote a little event. So this weekend I'll be in Farmington, Arkansas. But don't come. Cause by the time you hear this, I will have already have been there. So we're just gonna rely on.

[Phil Robertson]

You're gonna show up at an empty venue and say, man, you missed a great event. Jase Roberts was.

[Zach Dasher]

So I was supposed to promote that a couple days ago, but I've already given you, however. So now I'm going to give you a heads up.

[Phil Robertson]

Okay.

[Zach Dasher]

All right. So on April 18, now you do have time to put this on your schedule. I'm going to be in Abilene, Texas, slash Buffalo Gap. I mean, Al, this is. This is the gap where the buffalo ran through, you know.

[Phil Robertson]

Oh, really?

[Zach Dasher]

As a historian, it's. It's awesome. Somewhere around that area. And so if you want to join me that evening, you go to jim nedbpo.org kind of sounds like some of my redneck buddies is this guy playing poker with y'all? Because that's a. Oh, Jim, Ned. But the bpo, I think they're doing some kind of fundraiser for a high school band. So that's. Band something organization. So anyway, we're.

[Phil Robertson]

That's what you're.

[Zach Dasher]

We're going to do it. So my spiritual application is. I got to thinking about this. Remember when we had the debate on John last podcast, or maybe the podcast before, about why this temple story is in the beginning of John's account, but it's at. Toward the end in Matthew, Mark and.

[Phil Robertson]

Luke, we were wondering if it was the same event. Zach thinks it's two different events. Whatever, right?

[Zach Dasher]

Something hit me in the middle of the night. You know how you wake up and you're like, oh, I should have said this, and I should have said this. And it goes in with what you're saying. I think we tend to think. And the verse that we read, because a lot of people say, especially in the world, how do we know this is God's word? And so people who don't believe in God, they'll go to the Bible and find what they call contradictions. And of course, we look at it like that's silly because we're so such deep Bible studiers. It's like the more I read and the more I connect dots from what we're going back at least three to 4,000 years and you have what, 41, 40 writers, and there is this synergy that's awesome. That we see. But having said that, I don't know what we're trying to portray. These were. God chose to write through human beings.

[Phil Robertson]

Right.

[Zach Dasher]

And it wasn't like the thought that hit me was they weren't like, mind controlled, like, woke up zombie state, started writing. And then they're like, oh, let me read what I just wrote. That's not the way it worked. They were carried along by the Holy Spirit, but they inserted their human what they had been reading, what they saw, what they.

[Phil Robertson]

And so I think John probably does that more than any, for sure of the gospel writers, because he'll just give you a little parenthetical right in the middle of a. I mean, none of the others do that. See what I'm saying?

[Zach Dasher]

Exactly.

[Phil Robertson]

He illustrates your point even more than some of the other.

[Zach Dasher]

So I think even, like, you know, they. They tend to highlight different things, like when. When he gets revealing about the spirit, that is to come. Well, in John 14:16, there's no mention of any kind of miraculous signs of the Spirit that's going to happen in the book of Acts. I mean, no mention of it.

[Phil Robertson]

None.

[Zach Dasher]

And I think Luke at the end of his. He kind of refers to you'll be clothed with power. So he's kind of thinking, oh, this is going to be powerful. When you read John, when he's talking about the Holy Spirit, you get a different vibe. You know, it's more about truth and comforter and counselor. And so I. I was just gonna say that that's.

[Phil Robertson]

So you're saying they could miss a date and that's just being a human.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah. It's not. It doesn't. It doesn't take away from the overall theme.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah.

[Zach Dasher]

And. And foundation of what this is all about. You know, it's like you get. You start breaking down God the Father and Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit and how this plan was woven through history. Even like we. We're revealing through the temple and the kingdom. How. How are all these people connecting all these dots in their writings coming from different perspectives. And I think that's what makes it so powerful. And so I. I think you see the same thing today. A spirit indwelled people. Despite our flaws, God still trusts that to be the plan. We're ambassadors and we even get some things wrong. And we don't have to have the weight of trying to get every little detail right because there are a lot of confusing things here. Because he chose flawed men to write this.

[Phil Robertson]

I do like the idea of flowing into the adjustments of how life does. Just to close off my thought, March 21st and 20 to the 23rd is. The weekend will be a Macville, Kentucky. So I don't know if this. There's availability, but check with those guys. But that's exactly what you're talking about, is you have to adjust because ever since this has happened last night now, we had travel, we had plane tickets bought, we had everything set up for the next weekend because we plan, you know, a couple of months out. So now all of a sudden in a rush, we've got to change schedules. Lisa was supposed to speak here at event.

[Zach Dasher]

She.

[Phil Robertson]

She's texting the lady. I'm so sorry. We've booked on a weekend. This is a mistake. Now we're scrambling to fill that spot. Everything then becomes the cascade. But it's kind of like you described. It's what we do in real life. I thought about when Jace was talking about it, Zach. I mean, we Prepare sermons. A lot of times you'll get a section of something that's so good in your mind out of a Bible study we're doing. But then all of a sudden you're working on a sermon in a totally different place. You think, oh man, that piece over there would work so well in this context. And that's kind of what you're describing. I mean, you know, you just take these things, you sort of cobble it together. It's all spirit led because you know that, you know, you know the spirit's working in the situation.

[Jase Robertson]

Al, have you ever had your identity stolen?

[Phil Robertson]

You know I haven't, but there has been some hacking on debit cards and credit cards in the past. But I haven't had my entire identity stolen. But I've had enough of a bad experience. I know we need some help.

[Jase Robertson]

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[Phil Robertson]

Oh well that's. Yeah, there's that.

[Jase Robertson]

But, but on the.

[Zach Dasher]

That's a weird negotiation tactic.

[Jase Robertson]

I'm just saying you back if you could double buck and you're like, you need to send me.

[Phil Robertson]

You know, Zach's volunteering to be the next guy.

[Jase Robertson]

But, but on the scripture thing that I think it's an important distinction to make between dictating the scripture and inspiring the scripture and, and the Holy Spirit, it doesn't say that he dictated word for word what would be written. In fact, we don't even have access to the original manuscripts of the Bible. We have copies of copies. You know, we have tons of copies, but we don't have. And then, and then which translation? I mean if you get, you get into this, this debate on which translation is inspired and whatnot, it's not the translation that's inspired. It's the word of God that's inspired in the original manuscripts that we don't have access to. But it's the thought. And so the difference. It's not that God used flawed men and that the scriptures are flawed. The scriptures are not. The scriptures are flawless. They are the inerrant word of God. Mean they do not have any error. But to read them as dictated from God is to actually misunderstand what it means to have the Scriptures. Each man they. So you have these, these accounts of the Gospel, for example. And I heard it said this way one time that it's like if, if you have two people, two eyewitnesses watching the same exact event and then you. They record what they saw. They saw a train wreck or car wreck and the, the police comes and he interviews both, both people, both witnesses. Those reports may have some differing like things that happen. But that's, that's not how you interpret that. You don't read it up. Well, their stories didn't line up word for word. No, they're giving what they saw in their own like, perspective. And the Holy Spirit was working through that to record these events of the Gospel, particularly in the Gospels, which is where we would find so called discrepancies. But when it comes to like, true, meaningful, like, like content in the Gospels, there really is no real ultimate variation of discrepancies. There may be some things that you read and hear. Well, he says it this way and then he says, well he, or he.

[Zach Dasher]

Might have said there was two men there and then there's one. I can't remember one story, but then one of the other gospels says it was just one guy. And so I just remember seeing that one time and they're like, well, how come he said it was two and there was one? Right, yeah, well, and that's my point. They're human beings. They're remembering it slightly different in some details.

[Phil Robertson]

Right.

[Zach Dasher]

But so just to cut to piggyback on what you said, Zach, however, I realize this is God's word and I agree it's flawless in as far as his design. But I've seen people go to the story of Job and his friends. You remember when Job was on the dung heap and he's getting advice from his three friends, Bildad, Zophar and well, look at you. Well, a lot of that advice you find out later God said was terrible advice.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah.

[Zach Dasher]

So you could actually go there and I've heard sermon preachers do it and they'll quote a verse out of Job and then I'll go over there and say they're making this. They have built a whole doctrine over what God said was terrible and vices.

[Phil Robertson]

He said, your friends are idiots.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah, the Bible, the Bible says, and they quote a passage out of Job, that, that actually the context is. No, that's not wrong. They were wrong. And we're quoting the scripture.

[Zach Dasher]

When you said that word flawed, that's why I thought it was flawed in that it was a terrible advice to give. And now you're quoting it as well. That's what the Bible says. Which leads me to the point I was trying to make is we have to put context and history. It is important. And I didn't realize that probably the first 10 years of my walk, which is why I didn't hang out a lot in the Old Testament, because I thought, well, that doesn't have anything to do with me. But now here I am.

[Jase Robertson]

We were told that, we were told if you brought up the Old Testament, it doesn't apply. I mean, how many times I heard that doesn't Apply. But it doesn't apply. I mean, the whole. It's one. I think you're such a good point. Point that. And everybody, by the way, says this. That's kind of the caveat here. Everybody says, from any perspective, well, you need to read the Bible in context. And they all accuse the other side of not reading it in context. So that can be kind of a.

[Phil Robertson]

It really is. They call it hermeneutics. It really is the study of what it meant then and there before you applied to here and now. I mean, if you'll do that, you'll get it right more than you'll get it wrong. It reminds me, Jason, when I wrote down. I was. I tried to come up with a different verse for every book, and I was. I wrote down the wrong verse for about three events in a row in my book, because it was. Luke 7:47 was the verse I meant to say, because the book is about forgiveness, and that's a text about forgiveness. The woman at the feet of Jesus. Well, I put John 7:47 for three straight events, which is. Well, look it up. And so. So I'm writing this down wrong. And I realized one day I had done it. Within hit me in a moment. I thought, I've been writing down the wrong verse. And so I had no IDEA what John 7:47 says.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, it actually says, you mean he has deceived you also? The Pharisees.

[Jase Robertson]

Wow.

[Phil Robertson]

And that was my verse.

[Jase Robertson]

That's great. That's encouraging, man.

[Phil Robertson]

So.

[Zach Dasher]

Right.

[Phil Robertson]

And so nobody ever said anything, except one guy sent me an email and said, man, congratulations on the new book. I'm so excited for you. I was wondering about that verse that you signed it. What does that mean? And that's when I realized what I had done. I looked at it and I thought, how do you explain that? So I said, what do you think it means? I put the old reverse on it, you know, slick.

[Zach Dasher]

Then there's a small group of people that would say it means you are a false teacher.

[Phil Robertson]

That's right. Exactly. You mean he has deceived you as.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, Correctly handled the word of truth.

[Jase Robertson]

But, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned that I still stand by my. My position that this is a different event from Mark 13 and Matthew 24. I think I got that right.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, you sent me about a, you.

[Jase Robertson]

Know, not Mark 13. I mean, Mark 10.

[Zach Dasher]

10 page letter about that after we had this discussion earlier.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah.

[Zach Dasher]

And I was like, well, next time I have two hours to research this. So weird. Go ahead.

[Jase Robertson]

I'm sorry, yeah, yeah. It's different than Mark's account and is what I meant to say I was confused with all that discourse. But I do think that the point is though, for me too Jace, it was seeing how this overlays with the like the, the. It's like this narrative, a grand narrative of Scripture which we didn't mention in the last podcast. But when there's a reason why he quotes the Old Testament so often, even in the part where he's turning over the tables, he, he says is his disciples remember that or he says his disciples remembered that it was written. Zeal for your house will consume me. Which is a prophetic word out of one of the Psalms. And so that's why you can't read this in isolation. You have to read to this in more of like a meta narrative from a meta narrative. Meta narrative perspective that he's continuing to go back the, the New Testament continues to point back to the Old Testament. Like you can't understand what is actually happening here. Happening here. If you pull it out of its Old Testament context of a story that has all of these different authors, which is kind of honestly for me, that's an evidence for the scripture, that this scripture was not dictated by somebody going into a cave and receiving a dictation from God, if that's what it was. How would you ever prove that wrong? You can. If I told you guys that I go into, I went into a, a room and the Word and the Lord spoke to me and I come out with something, I said, this is what he said. There's no way that you could ever possibly prove that to be wrong. You can't prove it to be right either. And that's the problem. But with our, with the Holy Scriptures, it's multiple authors writing over the course of, you know, hundreds of years. And not only that, that these authors are taking the event that they're talking, the events they're talking about and they're connecting them in space and in time. That, that's a dangerous thing to do because if any of these events don't happen, for example, if that temple doesn't come down in 8070, it kind of destroys Jesus's whole argument. I mean the whole thing falls with history or stands with history. And so the reason why the Word of God has prevailed throughout all the time is that it's true. You can't take it down. It's true. Fellas, I just ordered a seven foot Leland cypress to go against the back part of my house. I'm beginning the border wall. I ordered it from our great friends at Fast Growing Trees. Al, you've got a few trees as well, correct?

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah, I got some palm trees and some fruit trees. But I have to say that dad would be super proud that you ordered a cypress tree. It's his favorite tree.

[Jase Robertson]

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[Zach Dasher]

And it's about a person who is true.

[Phil Robertson]

Right? Which is probably the perfect segue back.

[Zach Dasher]

Into, well, I said all that to say this two days ago, I was ready to reveal this.

[Phil Robertson]

Oh, boy.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, but now I can't remember exactly where we were going with it.

[Phil Robertson]

So you led us up to this pathway, Jerusalem. I felt like we were on the edge of a precipice of looking into because you were like, I don't even know if y'all are going to agree with my assessment. You had me, like, salivating, waiting at the point, and now you're saying you don't even remember your.

[Zach Dasher]

I remember the point. I just don't remember all the legs of the point as I did because I had really studied that the night before.

[Phil Robertson]

You're making me Feel better about missing the event date, I'll tell you that.

[Zach Dasher]

And in the last two days, I've had a lot of chaos in my life, so I'm going to rely on the Holy Spirit.

[Phil Robertson]

Oh, boy.

[Zach Dasher]

And I do just want to say before I begin this, you got to remember, I think just to put a little exclamation point on what we just discussed. And you can read that from first. I mean 2 Peter 2 when it says that you must understand. This is verse 12. That.

[Phil Robertson]

No, second Peter one, isn't it?

[Zach Dasher]

Oh, second Peter one. Why did I say to you second Peter one when he says, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by its own interpretation. Men were carried along by the Holy Spirit. I quoted that.

[Phil Robertson]

I didn't read it.

[Zach Dasher]

I couldn't find the verse. About to get my glasses on and he says, we didn't. Verse 16. We didn't follow cleverly invented stories. However, combine that with what we did do on the last podcast. Was Ephesians 1 being a mystery. The whole plan of God's a mystery. I listened to this guy because, look, John 3 and what we said. There's a huge controversy about, I say controversy, that seems there's a lot of ideas, a lot of opinion, opinions on what it means to be born of water in the spirit in this context, in this moment. So I did some research and I thought, okay, let me look into this. Maybe I've missed something because I do think you've got to bring an open mind here. And so I heard One guy, this Dr. Heiser, give the context. Now, I want to say right off the bat, I what I'm fixed to present. I mean, I got this from him and I think it's right as far as the context of in the moment. However, I disagree with his final analysis. I really did, because I think kind of what happens here, just like the temple that we just read, John is going back and saying, okay, the temple. Was this the idea of the temple to the Jewish world? Which is what? A physical structure where God and priests met on behalf of the people. Is that a good assertion? Or where heaven and earth were overlapping?

[Phil Robertson]

You agree because of 151.

[Zach Dasher]

But then John took it forward by saying, quoting Jesus, where it says, destroy this temple and I'll raise it again in three days. So I think the same thing happens here. So I realize when I say I'm disagreeing with a Hebrew scholar and it's final analysis, that is quite a statement. And so understandably I could be wrong, but I do agree with the context, which I had never noticed before. And so here's basically what he preached.

[Phil Robertson]

And just to remind you, because you said this in the last podcast, when Jesus said, you are Israel's teacher, and do you not understand these things? You said that triggered you to.

[Zach Dasher]

That triggered. Because that was his main point.

[Phil Robertson]

You should know this.

[Zach Dasher]

He was going back for Nicodemus, who was a member of the Jewish ruling council and a Pharisee. He was a leading religious mind in these things, and there were only a handful. So why in the world would Jesus say, you are Israel's teacher and you don't understand these things? Something. What he said had to be connected to something that happened in Israel's past.

[Phil Robertson]

Jesus thought you should have known this.

[Zach Dasher]

So he also brought up the idea of him using Moses as an illustration when he says that in verse 14, just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert. So here's what he said. If you go back and I want to read this, I want to do something we don't normally do, but I just think it's important.

[Phil Robertson]

And the numbers account.

[Zach Dasher]

Now we're going to go to Exodus 14. Of all places, we're going to go to the crossing of the Red Sea by the Israelites. Because Heizer's point was water and the spirit. He's like, now look, he had a lot of reasons for this. One, it happened at night. And now this Pharisee's coming to him at night. Remember when you paid the point at night? Well, you didn't make this point, which I didn't think was that big a point. Okay, so the crossing of the. At the Red Sea happened at night.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah.

[Zach Dasher]

You know, maybe just the Nicodemus came to Jesus at night. Have we ever thought about that? I tend to be just simplistic in mind. Maybe that had nothing to do with anything.

[Phil Robertson]

Right.

[Zach Dasher]

But what did happen? What happened at the Red Sea? Now we're going to read it. But what's your first impression of that? You're not thinking water in the spirit there. However, when you read the story, well, water parts and the reason it parted is because God sent a giant wind. Well, what happens right after he told him be born of water and the spirit, you know, and then he tells.

[Phil Robertson]

Us about the wind.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah. Then he goes to flesh, gives birth to flesh. Now look, if his point was John's point was that you think, Nicodemus, that just because you're born in the right nation, that you're going to be saved. And you piggyback that with John 1 when he said, I've given everyone the right to become children of God. Not based on who your dad was or what country you came from or a husband's decision, you see, but born of God. Heiser's point is, his point is, he's trying to get Nicodemus to see, based on John 3:16, for God sent his son to the world. He's trying to use this illustration to take him back. Because this event, they're still celebrating this today in Israel. This is like the event of Israel's liberation from Egyptian bondage. And it was a miraculous spirit led. If you, if you take wind as a definition of. What's the Hebrew word for spirit? Rua. Yes, same, same spirit. Now, before we read it and you go back to the creation itself, what happened? The spirit's hovering over the waters and God divided the waters. You have the same. We have three moments that we could go that spans at least a couple thousand years here, 3,000 years, where something spectacular happened when the waters were divided and the spirit entered the arena. And now it seems like Jesus is referring to that because his point was his mind. When you start talking about water and spirit, his mind being Israel's teacher, would go back to this Red Sea encounter. Right. However, now, once you read it, once I read this, and I agree with Heiser that I do think that this is involved in the context of what Jesus is talking about, it did make me disagree with his final analysis. And here's why. That's why I want to read this. So Exodus 14, verse 1. Then the Lord said to Moses, tell the Israelites to turn back. And I'm going to, I'm just going to hurriedly go through the story. Verse 2. They are to encount by the sea. Verse 3. Pharisees. Pharaoh will think. Let me get my glasses.

[Phil Robertson]

What chapter you in?

[Zach Dasher]

Exodus 14:3.

[Phil Robertson]

Okay.

[Zach Dasher]

Pharaoh will think, the Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert. I will harden Pharaoh's heart and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army. And the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord. So the Israelites did this. And al you can set the stage on what led to this encounter. But this is basically God freeing the Israelites from Egyptian bondage.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah, they had been through all the plagues. I mean, they had been pushed out and now here they were.

[Jase Robertson]

You know, it's really mind boggling to consider the fact that there's over a billion children in the world who are growing up in spiritual darkness. I mean, that actually blows my mind having never heard the gospel. But our friends at Tomorrow Clubs are helping the gospel to reach these children. And that's why we want to partner with them in such a powerful way. We just heard an incredible story from our friends at Tomorrow Clubs. Three years ago, the very first Tomorrow Club in South Africa opened up in a rag tent church. I love that. In a little town outside a little neighborhood outside of Cape Town. It's called the criminal capital of Cape Town. A community over run by gangs and drugs. Delft is the name of the town. The kids in the neighborhood were living hopeless lives, being groomed for gangs and much more. But as they learned to follow Jesus in the Tomorrow Clubs, their lives changed. Their parents became curious. They wanted to see where the kids were going and what they were learning. And just last week the pastor reported that over the last three years. Listen to this. More than 60 families in this area that had never been to a church before started attending his church because their kids were coming to the Tomorrow Clubs. That's why we're partnering with Tomorrow Clubs. The doors are wide open and churches are asking for your help. That's why we are inviting our unashamed listeners to become a Tomorrow Clubs ministry partner by sponsoring 30 or more kids with a monthly donation of a dollar per child. That's just $1 per child per month. To bring the life changing hope of the Gospel to more young people in forsaken places like Delft. Go to TomorrowClubs.org Unashamed today to learn more and become a Tomorrow Clubs ministry partner. That's TomorrowClubs.org unashamed.

[Zach Dasher]

All right, so verse 5 of Exodus 14. When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, what have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services. Which I thought was a fantastic verse. Yeah, because when you're in bondage, you're basically serving. Because I'm going to make a spiritual application to this later. And so because God liberates us through the new creation from being under the services of the evil one, which is very powerful. So verse six. So he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him. He took 600 of the best chariots along with all the chariots of Egypt. This would make a great movie with officers all over them. The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites who were marching out boldly. The Egyptians, all Pharaoh's horses and chariots Horsemen and troops pursued the Israelites and overtook them. Verse 10. As Pharaoh approached, the Israelites looked up and there were the Egyptians marching after them. They were terrified and cried out to the Lord. They said to Moses, was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to Us to the desert to die so that now they're gone?

[Phil Robertson]

This has kind of been their theme.

[Zach Dasher]

We did all this and now we're going to be killed. Because now they're trapped. You got to remember, they've literally gone to the edge of the sea.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah.

[Zach Dasher]

They were encamped there.

[Phil Robertson]

Nowhere to go.

[Zach Dasher]

There's nowhere to go. Why? What, are you going to jump in the sea? What happens when you jump in the sea?

[Phil Robertson]

You drown.

[Zach Dasher]

You also die. So that's why. It wasn't just because they're. They're being chased that they're going. They're trapped. So where am I at?

[Phil Robertson]

What have you done to.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah, what have you done to us by bringing us out of Egypt? Didn't we say to you in Egypt, leave us alone. Let us serve the Egyptians. It would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the desert. Now they are grumpy because they are fixed to die. There is nowhere to go. You can either be killed by the army or you can jump in the sea and drown. Moses said, don't be afraid. Stand firm and you will see. The deliverance will bring you today. The Egyptians you see today, you will never see again. The Lord will fight for you. You need only to be still. Now I'm going to stop.

[Phil Robertson]

And the reason I almost preached a sermon over there.

[Zach Dasher]

Oh, Al, there are hundreds of sermons about this. And I want to show you another way. What? How people misinterpret scripture. And I've heard this people say, I mean, Exodus 14, the Lord will fight for you. You just only need to be still. There's been songs written about it. You know what's crazy is that sound so good. And then the next verse, you know what God says about that? The Lord said to Moses, why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move. I thought I literally laughed out loud when I read that. People say Moses had this great speech and he's like, just be still. The Lord's going to fight for us. Then God says, hey, you idiot, tell them to move. He didn't say idiot. But I just want to make the point that God had something else in mind here. And it was in their minds approaching something that would guarantee death. We can't Move. There's nowhere to move. That's why this is so profound. He's like, move. Where are we going to move? We got a sea on one side and we got an army on the other. So watch what happens, and then I'll make the application. Verse 16. Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground. I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. The Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen. Then the angel of God, who had been traveling in front of Israel's army, withdrew and went behind them. The pillar of cloud also moved from in front and stood behind him, coming between the armies of Egypt and Israel throughout the night. There's the night the cloud brought darkness to the one side and light to the other side. So neither went near the other all night long. Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea. And all that night, the Lord drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided, and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground with a wall of water on their right and on their left. So then you know the end of the story. The Egyptians pursued them, and all the Pharaoh's horses, chariots, horsemen followed them into the sea. During the last watch of the night, the Lord looked down from the pillar of fire and cloud the Egyptian army and threw it into confusion. He made the wheels of their chariots come off so that they had difficulty driving. And the Egyptians said, get away from the Israelites. The Lord is fighting for them against Egypt. Then the Lord said to Moses, stretch out your hand over the sea, that the waters may flow back over the Egyptians and their chariots and horsemen. He did that. The Egyptians were fleeing toward it, and the Lord swept them into the sea. The water flowed back and covered the chariots and horsemen. The entire army that Pharaoh had followed the Israelites into the sea. Not one of them survived. So I do think that is applicable to the story, and maybe that is the context that he wanted Nicodemus to go back to. So the end result is, if that is the context based on the you're an Israelite. You should know if he was talking about the Red Sea. And I do want to mention there is a little credibility first.

[Phil Robertson]

Corinthians 10.

[Zach Dasher]

I wanted to read it to that being an analogy. So if you read First Corinthians 10, now that we're going forward, he says, for I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and ate the same spiritual drink, for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, which was Christ. Nevertheless, God wasn't pleased with them because once they got out, you would think that they would all follow him faithfully. But then they began to have other problems. But the point of our discussion here is, so then, so what does this mean? So I was going to give you the three things that people disagree on, on what John 3 is talking about. And I'm saying I'm offering a fourth option. So here's the three things people say. What does water mean? When it says unless he is born of water and the spirit, or he can't enter the kingdom. And he also said, unless you're born again, you can't see the kingdom. So we're talking about entrance into the reign of Christ, the King of Kings.

[Phil Robertson]

Correct.

[Zach Dasher]

Which we have multiple times said. We believe that happens now and later. Now, in that as you surrender to Jesus, and I would argue, are baptized into Christ and receive his spirit, you enter the kingdom, but you enter it later in that when he comes back, you then get a new imperishable body.

[Phil Robertson]

To dwell with God, which he modeled for us by his own glorified resurrection.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, one's entering and the other is a full consummation of what's already been begun.

[Phil Robertson]

Good way to put it.

[Zach Dasher]

Good caveat, Zach. So here's your three options. You can believe that the water means being born as a human because the next verse says verse six, flesh gives birth to flesh, but the spirit gives birth to spirit. I would argue that. I don't think that is what he's talking about, just because I think the context is that he was born within the Israel nation. So that's what that reference is. Go back to John 1:12. And I would also argue, and this is kind of graphic, but I don't know any other illustration or how to put it is if it was that, then you would also be saying that an unborn baby is somehow. What are we going to do about that? If you're. If water is being born as a human being. Well, what about when you're in the womb? Yeah. You see what I mean?

[Phil Robertson]

Sure. What happens when the water never breaks.

[Zach Dasher]

What you're saying, are they not a human? I don't think any person on the planet who follows Jesus would.

[Jase Robertson]

Would say, yeah, like he said, in order to. In order to see the kingdom, you have to be born. Well, what if you're not born? Still getting around to that fix on your car. You got this on ebay. You'll find millions of parts guaranteed to fit. Doesn't matter if it's a major engine repair or your first time swapping your windshield wipers. Ebay has that part you need ready to click perfectly into place for changes big and small, loud or quiet. Find all the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. But you already know that. Ebay things people love Eligible ITEMS ONLY.

[Zach Dasher]

EXCLUSIONS APPLY well, exactly. I believe heaven or heaven, the new heaven and earth will be filled with unborn babies. I believe they will be a part of the afterlife.

[Phil Robertson]

When we looked at John the Baptist back in Luke 2, Luke 1 and Luke 2, he had the spirit of God in the womb. Yeah, he wasn't born yet. What were you going to say? Is that. What was your point?

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah, and I also, I've always found that explanation to be lacking in that nicodemus's whole framework. When he asked the qu. When he hears the phrase born again, he says like, how can I, you want to talk about?

[Phil Robertson]

He immediately went there.

[Jase Robertson]

How do I enter my mother's womb and be born a second time? Which is a kind of a weird imagination that he paints there. But like he's thinking physical birth. And he's thinking, I don't want to get too graphic here, but he's thinking the, the physicality, the physical impossibility of a full grown man re. Entering his mother's womb and coming out again. That's what he's asking. He's like, that's not possible because he.

[Phil Robertson]

Only viewed it as being born as an Israelite.

[Jase Robertson]

So it wouldn't make sense for them to say, yeah, oh no, you got to be born of the MoS.

[Zach Dasher]

It doesn't make sense, but it's an option. And look, lots of people believe that.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah, I've read it before.

[Zach Dasher]

Then you option two and look, there's more options. I think these are the most critical, these are the most credible. Option two. Is that water? Is that Red Sea moment? Which is what Heiser thought, that it's just being born into Israel and. But it's mainly a response to option three, which people in the camp I came from say that this is Talking about being baptized.

[Phil Robertson]

Right.

[Zach Dasher]

So to receive God's Spirit. Now he made the point. The reason he didn't think it was that is because. Well, why would he be bringing up something that hasn't happened? He's like, this is a Christian's baptism. That wouldn't make any sense. That's why the reason I disagree with him is, well, so is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[Phil Robertson]

Yeah. Because that hasn't happened.

[Zach Dasher]

So that, that's not a good argument. Which. That's the argument he gave. And you know, Dr. Heiser is no longer on the planet. I'm not. I hate to disagree with someone that's gone on to be with the Lord because I don't think this is some kind of deal breaker argument. This is a very difficult passage to understand. What was he talking about? So I'm, I'm in option four, which is, I believe it's option two. And three. I do think the context is this Red Sea occurrence with the waters dividing then the Holy Spirit and that being later fulfilled into the new Exodus that Jesus was talking about being freedom from the control of the evil one, being freedom from your sin. And I have a lot of reasons for that. But I do believe he was looking forward to baptism when someone surrenders. Now, look, the reason that I think he doesn't believe that is because maybe we need to have a conversation on what exactly is that baptism. But I think it lines up because of verses like this. And I want to read Galatians 3. So when you read Galatians 3:26, it seems to fit what I'm proposing here because in verse 26 it says, you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who are baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. And look what the first thing says on the next verse. There's neither Jew nor Greek. Well, I think that's the context of John 3. He's saying, God sent Jesus for the whole world. There's a new exodus that I'm bringing forth and it's for everyone. And so, yes, I'll give you a story that you're familiar with, with the Red Sea and all that and the water and the wind. So I do believe that's how he was luring him in. But he was also looking forward to when people are baptized, which is not, of course, then you come up with the argument, well, what are you saying? There's something you can do. And no, I'm like, it's just like the Red Sea moment. They were viewing, getting in that water as death. Sure. You see what I mean? Sure. Death. But God did the working in that situation. So I think when you're baptized, I think to go off on Romans 6, he's asking you to die, to surrender. And I'll work it out. Literally jump in the Red Sea and I'm going to part the waters. And so the spiritual application of that, I think, is very powerful. Yes. Say something.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah. I think if you think about this motif in scripture that moves from Genesis all the way to our moment that we're in now, there's other, like, water stories. You mentioned the creation account where the Lord split the water. There's also next. I think the next one would be the flood waters. Then there's. Then there's the waters of Joshua where the Jordan actually parted as well. In Joshua, chapter 4, verse 23. I want to read this. For the Lord God dried up the Jordan river because they did the same thing. They got to the Jordan River. Where do we go? Kind of very similar to the Red Sea. Where do we go? Will you go through the Jordan? Okay, well, they cross over. The Lord dried it up before you and. And you had crossed over. The Lord your God did to the Jordan what he had done to the Red Sea when he dried it up before us until we had reached. Until we had crossed over. Here's verse 24. And this connects to what you just read in Galatians. He did this so that all the peoples of the earth, Jew and Gentile, might know that the hand of the Lord is powerful, so that you might always fear the Lord your God. Now, this is. He's talking in an immediate context. I want everybody, all the nations around to be fearful of Israel. But I think there's also the bigger context of God. This is. This is also echoed. It's when. When Jesus crossed into the Jordan and got baptized. It's connected to this, to this moment, to the Jordan river and the. And so here's where the other part plays in with Noah, like the reason why I do think you're right. And I'm not saying that we might have to disagree on what baptism is, but I think it's what the waters represent here. I think Peter gives a good language for this because Noah was saved also through water. If you think about it, God killed just like he killed every. All the Egyptians and washed the problems away.

[Zach Dasher]

Look, look, Al. Where am I at? Where was I going next? I was going to 1st Peter 3. However, due to time, we're not going to be able to get into that. So I just think this is a part we.

[Jase Robertson]

Out of time.

[Zach Dasher]

We are out of time. But. But I think this, I think this becomes an important part one, because we did have to go down the rabbit trail because it's such a hard thing to wrap your head around. And I do think we need to have that discussion on what exactly is baptism? Because I think the reason that people say, well, it can't be baptism here, talking about the water. Well, maybe we need to understand what exactly baptism is. Because, look, I think all three of us are agreeing. Jesus is what is saving us. It's what saved us. And it. What is saving us.

[Phil Robertson]

Which is why he told the other story, which I'll get into next time, about Moses and the snakes and the bronze snake that ties it together to exactly what you're saying. But we don't have time to get there today.

[Zach Dasher]

So I just wanted to propose, because this is a very difficult passage.

[Phil Robertson]

Right.

[Zach Dasher]

But I think an effort to be fair in that moment. I do think he was talking to Nicodemus in an Israelite context. And I really believe the red parting of the Red Sea because it was the most monumental event in their history. They immediately, you start talking about water, sea and wind, and that's where they're going, liberation.

[Jase Robertson]

But if you're hung. But if you're hung up on the water part, just. I know we're out of time, but just here's what Peter says. It's not the removal of dirt from the flesh, right? So don't get caught up on the water. You're missing it because you get caught up. Water doesn't save anybody. That's not. You're missing what baptism is.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, I agree. And that's where I want to go into part two. And then we can get what you call it the meta narrative of the bigger picture, which is what I believe is God sent his son to save the world. And look, you can be born again. You can be into the kingdom, you can start over. You can have a new exodus. I mean, all these things are the greater point.

[Phil Robertson]

So Unashamed nation. Just pray that Jace, between today, Wednesday and next Monday, when we record again, that he will remember where he left off. So we can pick this discussion up next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.