Ep 1061 | Jase Dismantles Major Misconceptions About Baptism — What It Is & What It Definitely Isn't

Summary

Podcast Title: Unashamed with the Robertson Family
Host: Tread Lively Robertson Family
Episode: Ep 1061 | Jase Feels a Swell of American Pride Thanks to Elon Musk & the Important Thing About Baptism
Release Date: March 21, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 1061 of "Unashamed with the Robertson Family," host Jase Robertson delves into the nuanced discussions surrounding baptism, pride, and humility within the Christian faith. Joined by Zach Dasher and Al Robertson, the episode offers a profound exploration of biblical teachings, personal anecdotes, and contemporary applications relevant to believers aiming to live out their faith authentically.

Key Discussions and Insights

1. Observing Community Activities and Building Connections ([00:31] - [04:40])

The episode opens with a lighthearted conversation where Zach Dasher shares an observation about women attending a "duck call room special" next door. This anecdote serves as a springboard for discussing the importance of community and inclusivity within faith-based activities. The mention of familiar faces like Martin's wife, Brittany, and Bella, Willie’s daughter, underscores the family's commitment to involving loved ones in their ministries.

Notable Quote:

Jase Robertson [01:01]: "I am unashamed. What about you?"

2. The Role of John the Baptist and the Nature of Baptism ([08:56] - [43:38])

A significant portion of the episode focuses on interpreting biblical texts related to baptism, particularly from the Gospel of John and First Corinthians. Jase and Zach discuss the humility of John the Baptist, emphasizing his role as a forerunner to Jesus and his lack of pride despite baptizing more followers than others at the time. They contrast this with contemporary practices where baptism can sometimes become a point of competition or pride among believers.

Notable Quotes:

Jase Robertson [12:18]: "With Jesus's death, we nullify any kind of self-righteousness that you would put on the act, the actual ceremony."

Zach Dasher [43:38]: "It's all about God's role vs. human credit."

Jase references 1 Corinthians 12:12-27, highlighting the metaphor of the body to illustrate the importance of each member's unique role within the church. This discussion underscores the idea that baptism is not merely a ritual but a profound declaration of unity with Christ and the Christian community.

Notable Quote:

Jase Robertson [19:57]: "We're all uniquely created by God and then we're all recreated in Jesus with our unique qualities and experience and everybody's role."

3. Pride vs. Shame in Religious Practices ([14:08] - [25:37])

Al Robertson introduces a compelling analysis of pride and shame, drawing from C.S. Lewis's insights. He explains that pride involves an overemphasis on oneself, while shame stems from an excessive fear of judgment. This dichotomy is explored in the context of ministry, where both extremes can hinder genuine faith and service.

Notable Quotes:

Al Robertson [14:08]: "Shame is an overemphasis on yourself. It's like, 'I don't want you to see me because I'm too prideful to be known.'"

Zach Dasher [15:51]: "It's all about God's role vs. human credit."

Jase and Zach further discuss how these emotions play out in church dynamics, especially regarding baptism practices. They caution against allowing pride to overshadow the true purpose of baptism, which is to symbolize a believer's death to sin and resurrection in Christ.

4. Biblical Interpretation and Contemporary Application ([26:56] - [56:54])

The conversation shifts towards interpreting Romans 6 and the theological implications of baptism as a representation of death and resurrection with Christ. The hosts debate the timing and significance of baptism in relation to Jesus's ministry and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2.

Notable Quote:

Jase Robertson [26:25]: "Baptism is a death, thus nullifying any kind of self-righteousness that you would put on the act, the actual ceremony."

Al Robertson emphasizes the importance of the Holy Spirit in baptism, arguing that it transcends mere ceremonial washing to become a transformative experience tied directly to Jesus's sacrifice and resurrection.

Notable Quote:

Al Robertson [32:24]: "The Holy Spirit's role in this is paramount. To be baptized with the Spirit is the baptism of Jesus."

The hosts critically examine 1 Corinthians 1:12-17, addressing the "dueling dunkers" controversy and reinforcing the message that baptism's true significance lies in its spiritual meaning, not in who performs the ritual. They advocate for a humble approach to ministry, where God's work takes precedence over personal accolades.

Notable Quote:

Zach Dasher [43:38]: "It's all about God's role vs. human credit."

Conclusions and Takeaways

Episode 1061 of "Unashamed with the Robertson Family" offers listeners a deep dive into the spiritual and practical aspects of baptism, urging believers to approach it with humility and understanding of its true significance. The discussion highlights the dangers of pride within religious practices and calls for a focus on God's transformative power rather than human recognition. By grounding their conversation in biblical teachings, Jase, Zach, and Al provide valuable insights for Christians seeking to live out their faith authentically and collectively.

Notable Quotes Summary

• Jase Robertson [01:01]: "I am unashamed. What about you?"
• Jase Robertson [12:18]: "With Jesus's death, we nullify any kind of self-righteousness that you would put on the act, the actual ceremony."
• Zach Dasher [19:57]: "We're all uniquely created by God and then we're all recreated in Jesus with our unique qualities and experience and everybody's role."
• Al Robertson [14:08]: "Shame is an overemphasis on yourself. It's like, 'I don't want you to see me because I'm too prideful to be known.'"
• Jase Robertson [26:25]: "Baptism is a death, thus nullifying any kind of self-righteousness that you would put on the act, the actual ceremony."
• Al Robertson [32:24]: "The Holy Spirit's role in this is paramount. To be baptized with the Spirit is the baptism of Jesus."
• Zach Dasher [43:38]: "It's all about God's role vs. human credit."

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Note: This summary focuses solely on the substantive content of the podcast episode, excluding advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to provide a comprehensive yet concise overview for those who have not listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Phil Robertson]

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[Jason Robertson]

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[Jase Robertson]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Zach Dasher]

Welcome back to Unashamed. I was Jason, I was looking next door. I saw the women going into the duck call room. So it made me curious.

[Jase Robertson]

The women?

[Zach Dasher]

Well, just some women.

[Jase Robertson]

Some women.

[Zach Dasher]

And yeah, I wasn't even sure exactly who they were. And I thought, what are they pulling off next door? Because now they've started filming earlier when we film sometimes.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah.

[Zach Dasher]

And I go over there and it's. They're having an all women duck call room special. I don't know if it was a fishing day.

[Jase Robertson]

Means they all got something they wanted to do. The guys.

[Al Robertson]

So their guys are not on it.

[Zach Dasher]

The guys are not on it. And so you got. Martin's wife is in there. Brittany. I saw Bella, who's not really related to the podcast other than we just. We love Bella, Willie's daughter. And my wife was there, which I guess that was to bring some class to the proceedings. And then.

[Jase Robertson]

You're not even on that.

[Zach Dasher]

My parting line to Hunter, who's their producer, I said, well, it didn't work well for Ghostbusters, but maybe.

[Jase Robertson]

See, I don't know what that means.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, he laughed, which I figured he would get it because they did. They remade Ghostbusters, but it was all women.

[Jase Robertson]

Oh, really?

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

I must have missed that.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah, I did too.

[Al Robertson]

The fact that you didn't get it, Jason's evidence that. That's the thing.

[Jase Robertson]

I don't think I should be viewed as some kind of cultural guru.

[Zach Dasher]

I'm not sure what pop culture reference.

[Al Robertson]

When's the last movie you went to watch it at?

[Zach Dasher]

Movie at a theater.

[Al Robertson]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

Missy and I And notice I said missing us.

[Al Robertson]

Well, except for chosen. You got to leave out the chosen because we know you're.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

Which, by the way, I am fixing to go to the season five premiere. Front row seat. They. They asked me because I went to season four. That was in season five. Is not.

[Zach Dasher]

Where is it?

[Jase Robertson]

In Texas.

[Zach Dasher]

Oh, Texas.

[Jase Robertson]

Can't remember the name, where it's at. But. So we're doing that tomorrow, Missy, and I'm driving over. Yeah, but it's like when you said they had the women. You know, it's like my wife, I think year one marriage, I referred to her as the wife. He's like, I have a name. It is Missy. Look, I never forgot that 30 some odd years later. Let's not. Let's lose the V and the wife generic term. And.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, Dad's was always your woman.

[Jase Robertson]

You know, she didn't like that. Yeah, she didn't like that.

[Zach Dasher]

Which is. Has kind of a. Almost a caveman.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah.

[Zach Dasher]

Connotation. Like you club your woman. You know, when you read John 4.

[Al Robertson]

Yesterday and you were reading the text, you actually. I felt like your inner feel come out when you said woman, because the verse says woman, a time has come. But you read it woman.

[Zach Dasher]

I did.

[Jase Robertson]

You know what? I actually thought that. I thought. I don't think he. He accentuated that word. Yeah.

[Zach Dasher]

You don't think Jesus did.

[Jase Robertson]

No, I don't think he didn't. But you did. You said woman. And I was thinking, well, that's my inner dad.

[Zach Dasher]

You're exactly right, Zach.

[Al Robertson]

He came out. I said, phil, are you here?

[Jase Robertson]

Is that you?

[Zach Dasher]

Well, we always like to have some. Some Philisms on this podcast. That's a caring tradition.

[Jase Robertson]

It is strange that they referred to her just as the Samaritan woman.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah. And nobody ever mentions her name. John never got it. Which you. You would think because of what happens at the end of it, which we talked about, that she would probably. I mean, they. They found out her and somebody got her name, but it just never. But maybe it's just because he wrote it sort of as a metaphor for anybody. It could have been anybody.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, she became the Samaritan woman in that region for Jesus.

[Zach Dasher]

Right, right, right.

[Al Robertson]

Well. And a lot of people believe that she was the catalyst for the kingdom emerging in that whole entire area.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah, well, because later on, I think, is it Acts 8.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah, Philip. Philip goes there.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah.

[Zach Dasher]

Right.

[Jase Robertson]

Well. And all of a sudden, people are coming out of the woodworks, coming to Jesus. Well, the foundation had already been laid. Hey, this just in, Al. God Had a plan.

[Zach Dasher]

He did have a plan.

[Al Robertson]

Breaking, broke news, broken news.

[Jase Robertson]

I've been on that kick about everything now because it's like the common sense world now, which we talked about. Yeah, but it's like things that were common sense when we were kids all of a sudden are common sense again.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah. It's like, we're back.

[Jase Robertson]

You're a man, I'm a woman. Okay, great.

[Zach Dasher]

Seems simple.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah.

[Al Robertson]

You get stuck in space, hey, send.

[Zach Dasher]

Someone else to say, we're going to. Yeah, you're up there for nine months, we're going to come get you.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah, I thought about that. I thought, you know, because that was a good moment, you know, everybody's America, you know.

[Zach Dasher]

Oh, it's exciting. Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

But I just thought these, all these commentators getting so. Just lit up about it. I thought, well, you have no idea as a spirit indwelled person.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

Traveling through space is like way down the list on cool things that were going to get to be doing. We're. We're in touch with the one who holds the atoms and molecules together.

[Zach Dasher]

We're not going to need rocket ships when we leave here or.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah. Just in general. I mean, we're turning that on its head.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

I mean, how many galaxies are there out there? If you want to go, oh, my goodness.

[Zach Dasher]

And some of these now, these new telescopes that when you look at them, the Webb telescope and some of these new things, it is incredible what we can see. I mean, it's way bigger. Yeah. The beautiful.

[Al Robertson]

We think it's one thing. And then you get to the edge of that and you're. Oh, wait, it actually goes on.

[Zach Dasher]

They just had this, I saw this one picture recently and there's all these galaxies, spiral galaxies. This is one picture of all of them. You say a galaxy, ours is so big we couldn't get across it in multiple lifetimes. And you're looking at like, I guess billions. Millions, Billions. I don't know how you count them, of galaxies like ours out there. I mean, you see a picture of that and it's mind blowing.

[Jase Robertson]

That's why they used to say space, the final frontier. That should be God. God is the final.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, that's who they were looking for. It was funny because all the Star Trek people were humanists and yet they were looking for something bigger than human beings. They thought they could like carry the human thing out and they'd find all these little beings and some of them are protoplasm and some of them were. Everything looked. Everything that was humanistic would look like us with Just some weird, you know, things moved around. Yeah, they still had all the basics. Yeah, they had eyeballs, they had a mouth. And so it was like all these things they were finding, but it was always this human spirit. But they kept looking. And the question was, what do you. What are you looking for? There's.

[Al Robertson]

Well, I was just comfort. I was just comforted in the fact that they all spoke English because that. Because I was nervous about, you know, but all the aliens speak English. And it was incredible, man.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, for 60s television, that was the way it worked.

[Jase Robertson]

I think one of the last movies I saw, which I left halfway through it was. I think it was Tommy Lee Jones and maybe Brad Pitt. They went to space looking for God. That's what it's about. And they pretty much got up there and said, he's not here. That was the movie.

[Zach Dasher]

Which, once again, I have no recollection of it, so it must not have done well, because I don't even know what a couple years ago. And that's two very good actors.

[Jase Robertson]

I think they brought it up on a former podcast. Whatever you do, don't go see that.

[Zach Dasher]

Oh, man. So that'll run you away. All right, so we want to pick up then. So we want to go back because we had Lisa on, and we had. We skipped a section of text because she was here and wanted to talk about the Samaritan woman. We wanted to get her take on it. So we skipped over this text. This really. I mean, I don't know what John had in mind when he did it, but he basically repeats what he had said back in chapter one about John the Baptist. I mean, it comes up again because there becomes this little rivalry between disciples. Is that a fair way to put what happened?

[Jase Robertson]

Well, I personally think maybe in contrast to Zach, since we had this discussion about what it means to be born again via Jesus to Nicodemus, and he talked about being born of water and the spirit. Well, right before this, I mean, you're just going back to chapter one, about when John the Baptist declared Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, and he kind of gives that recap of Jesus baptism. But then all of a sudden, like we do, it becomes, I think, part of this narrative, what we're fixed to read. I think one thing that stands out is John the Baptist was a pretty humble guy. He had a role to play. But if you put yourself in his shoes, it's always a temptation to be like, yeah, I'm the guy. I'm the guy that points to the guy. But even then, there's a sense of pride in all of us. You think that's a big deal, but you'll see in this conversation, he. He didn't have that pride about him.

[Zach Dasher]

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[Al Robertson]

Oh, yeah, I've been.

[Jase Robertson]

I've used it.

[Al Robertson]

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[Zach Dasher]

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[Jase Robertson]

I'm saying.

[Zach Dasher]

And then he says, but the least in the kingdom is greater than him. I mean, like, it's just. I mean, even Jesus puts it out there like, this is a wonderful human being, but the least in the kingdom, I think.

[Jase Robertson]

C.S. lewis. Zach, you're more familiar with his writings than me, and you have a better memory. But didn't he say that part of the struggle when it comes to roles in God's kingdom and Christianity is those who have what we would deem big positions, they have to struggle with pride. And those who have what we deem as not very lesser positions. Yeah, lesser positions. They have to struggle with shame, you know, overcoming shame. There was a quote he said about.

[Zach Dasher]

That which is actually really accurate. Yeah, you just see that anecdotally in everyday life.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, it's like the evil temptation is always there. There's. There's a lot of ways.

[Zach Dasher]

Don't you think that's exactly what John had in mind when we read about Nicodemus, conversation with Jesus and then we turn right around and go to this.

[Jase Robertson]

It's from one extreme. I mean, you see the two extremes, worldly, whatever. Filled with shame, multiple relationship. I mean, because most people say, well, she needs a counselor. Which. Which is what the Holy Spirit is referred to. The paracleta. Some there. I mean, we're going to clean this life up.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

And then you have a religious guy who's secretly coming. Not because it's a pride thing.

[Zach Dasher]

Right.

[Jase Robertson]

And I. Yeah, that's why I brought it up. I think those on both sides.

[Al Robertson]

On both sides. I mean, shame is actually ironically talked about it in the last podcast. More kind of how to impact. Shame actually is a version of pride. I mean, that's what it is. It's.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, explain that to us. Because I was using that because I did a C.S. lewis quote. Zach. Showing the opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Al Robertson]

But yeah, the pride side on the. I'm proud and I'm arrogant and I think I'm better than. Is prideful. Because you're concerned about your own. Like, you've elevated yourself. But shame, what shame is, is that it's. It's an over emphasis on your own. Like you're. It's afraid. You're afraid.

[Jase Robertson]

Pity or whatever.

[Al Robertson]

Well, it's more like I don't want you to see me because I. Because I want to. I want you to see me as something great because in my mind, I'm actually. It's actually a weird perversion of pride, but it's like, I don't want you to look at me. So what? Guilt is different too, by the way. I meant to say this in the last episode, because guilt causes you to look up towards God and say, like, help. Like. And shame is like, don't look at me because I don't want to be seen. The only reason why you wouldn't want to be seen is because you're prideful. I mean, I know that's harsh and I don't mean it to be harsh. I mean, I'm struggling with this as well. But like, when I'm in my shame, it's like I'm covering up. I don't want you to see me because I'm too prideful to be known. I don't want you to think bad of me.

[Zach Dasher]

And it also puts motives on other people's eye. To your point. Because it says, if you really knew me, there's no way you could love me, you know, if you really did. So. So you're saying I'M protecting you from yourself because, you know, I'm just too bad. But. But think about how arrogant that is to. You're exactly right. It really becomes this reverse position of pride to say that it's like the person who lies and says, well, I'm not going to tell you what's really going on because you really can't handle what I can handle. So I'm just going to lie to you about it as if somehow that's going to help the situation.

[Al Robertson]

Well, the problem is in a therapeutic culture that we live in now, like we want to take sh. Almost like we are a victim. And we are victims to some degree, but we're also perpetrators. And shame comes in, like that's something you have to take before the cross and you have to repent of it and bring to God repeatedly, by the way. And I think that when we, like in the context, even in the kingdom, it's funny because there are positions in the kingdom too. People have different talents and people are doing. Some are doing quote, air quotes here if you're. If you're not watching big things. And then some people do little things. But I love the book by Francis Schaefer called no Little People because he says in there that in God's kingdom there's just only God things. And so, yeah, it doesn't really matter what you're equipped for and what position that the Lord's put you in. In God's economy, there's not a difference between what Billy Graham did and what my mom did. Just no one knows my mom's name. I guess that some people know now because of the blind. But it was just a faithful service to God and in God's eyes and in the grand scheme of things like now, they were both serving the Lord in their respective ministries and there's not a difference. There's not a bit, oh, your mom did a little thing and Billy Graham did a big thing. No, they did God things.

[Zach Dasher]

No, I like that. And in fact, I was mentioning that I was just in Denham Springs speaking, and this guy, Rick Gage, who has been doing this ministry for 35 years, he went and spent time with the Billy Graham people and saw what they were doing, these huge stadiums. And he saw that it was effective to reach people. But then culture changed. It wasn't so easy to do that and get people to come to things like that. But he knew the gospel would still go out. He just took it, scaled it down, and he still does it in stadiums. But they're little football stadiums all around the country, and they're still leading people to Christ. So. But, I mean, I had never heard of Rick until I met him and Gotel Ministries. But I thought just what you were saying, Zach, he now is reaching people because that's what he's been called and led to do. He's an old football player and football coach, and he says, you know, I'm comfortable in a football stadium, but I just want to use it to reach people.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, I think First Corinthians 12 comes to mind, especially where we're at. I mean, Jesus had just introduced this concept of being born of the Spirit.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

And, you know, when Paul's talking to a church who obviously were having a lot of problems, he had to remind them of the gospel in chapter 15, and they had a lot of similar issues that he addresses in chapter one that we're going to read in this section on. Is there some thing about who does the baptizing and how many people are following you because you baptize people?

[Zach Dasher]

So the people you physically dunked under the water then were calling themselves your disciples?

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah, that's fixed to be a thing that we're going to read about. But I want to read this First Corinthians 12, because I think it kind of clears up what we're talking about. He said in verse 12, 12, 12, the body is made is a unit, though it is made up of many parts. And though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. We were all baptized by one spirit into one body. Whether Jews or Greek, slave or free, we were all given the one spirit to drink living water. Now, the body is not made up of one part, but of many. If the foot should say, because I'm not a hand, I do not belong to the body, it would not for that reason cease to be a part of the body. Because here we go. We're all in a body. But you're like, well, you're a hand while I'm a foot. We got different roles. And if the ear should say, because I'm not an eye, I do not belong to the body. It would not for that reason cease to be part of the body if the whole body were an eye. I mean, Paul is getting funny.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

Just imagine the body is one giant eye. Yeah. It's humor. It's funny. Where would the sense of hearing be? Like, I see you. Can you hear me? No, I don't have an ear. I'm all just enough.

[Zach Dasher]

Wasn't there a cartoon where there. There was just an eye. It was a. Was it monsters? Well, anyway, it gets worse.

[Jase Robertson]

It says if the whole body were in here. So now, I mean, you're visualizing this. If we were just all giant ears, where would the sense of smell be? Well, because you're just a big ear wax filled, hairy ear. But here's the point. Verse 18. But in fact, God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body. I mean, there's something special, beautiful, thought provoking about that paragraph. We're all uniquely created by God and then we're all recreated in Jesus with our unique qualities and experience and everybody's role.

[Zach Dasher]

Kellett told that Sunday in his sermon that his mama told him that he had two ears and one mouth when he went to college. She says that means you listen twice as much as you speak.

[Jase Robertson]

I do. I think there's some tricks, there's some truth to that. God wants you to listen.

[Zach Dasher]

Arkansas wisdom, Maddie.

[Jase Robertson]

So read our text.

[Zach Dasher]

All right, let me read our text. This is. So we remember, we had had that whole sort of sermon, I guess, lesson that Jesus taught, Nicodemus. And he went through the process of lifted up. We talked about the desert and the snakes. And then he. John 3:16. Then he talked about light and he talked about dark. And so then John just inserts this piece and he says, after this verse 22 of chapter 3, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside where he spent some time with them and baptized. Which is interesting because this first time you see this happening.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, can we. You want to just read chapter four one now? Yeah, because it is you. You immediately get. I remember the first time I ever read that. I thought, I didn't know Jesus baptized people. But then when he gets to chapter four, the Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, which goes into, I think you called it Dueling Dunkers.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah, the Dueling Dunkers.

[Jase Robertson]

It's pretty clever, Al.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah.

[Missy Robertson]

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[Jase Robertson]

Although in fact this is 4, 2. It was not Jesus who baptized, but.

[Zach Dasher]

His disciples, which is interesting that he chose. And Paul did too. Remember, because Paul said, I'm not going to baptize because he didn't want it to be associated to anything more than in preparation.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah. I think what was happening in the baptism was more important than who was doing the baptizing.

[Zach Dasher]

Exactly. Which is still the point for people.

[Jase Robertson]

Who become famous for following Jesus. This is an issue. I get that issue come up in my life a lot because people come up and say, will you baptize me? Well, I'm like, why? And they're like, well, you're, you know, you've always, they'll give a little speech that is nice towards me and appreciate it. Yeah. And I appreciate it. But I'm like, you've missed the point. It has nothing.

[Zach Dasher]

It's not me.

[Jase Robertson]

I know you think this is going to make a cool little Instagram picture, which in some cases that was what the focus was. So now I do not, you know, go out and say, oh, I'll, you know, I'll baptize anybody. I'm going to have a 40 minute discussion to you about Jesus.

[Zach Dasher]

Right.

[Jase Robertson]

And because you're missing the point, which, I mean, look, maybe I'm reading too much into that, but no, I mean.

[Zach Dasher]

It happened the first century. Why could it not Happen today for.

[Al Robertson]

The same reason I think too, this baptism, the ones we're talking about here, between John and Jesus disciples, this is maybe controversial. I don't know if it is or not, but I think it's controversial because.

[Jase Robertson]

I have an answer. I think I know what you're fixed to say and then I'm going to give a response to what I think you're fixing to say. So I'm turned to you.

[Zach Dasher]

Jace knows you so well now. He's anticipating.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, Zach gets nervous when you start talking about baptism, but he gets nervous a lot because it sure is in the Bible a lot.

[Al Robertson]

I love baptism. I just. Yeah, I just. Well, here's my point. I think that the baptism that we do now, I would say post resurrection of Jesus is a different baptism. It's the baptism of Romans 6 that connects you with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. So I don't know if Jesus, I mean, how do you pre. Pre baptize somebody into something that hasn't occurred yet? Because if you read the language of Romans 6, it's pretty clear that you're baptized into his death. We were therefore buried with him through baptism in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead, we may be raised as well to live a new life. So I think that baptism is, is the one in Acts 2 moving forward. But that baptism, I don't think it occurred until Acts chapter 12.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, obviously that's right.

[Jase Robertson]

I knew that's where you were going to go. And, and I think it's a good point. So I think you have to think about something here. John the Baptist, why was he baptizing people?

[Al Robertson]

Repentance?

[Jase Robertson]

Well, there was more to it than that. It says something else every time.

[Al Robertson]

Preparing the way for the kingdom.

[Jase Robertson]

Oh man, this is startling.

[Al Robertson]

John's baptism was repented.

[Jase Robertson]

John baptized, telling them to believe in the one who was to come. He was a forerunner or forerunner to Jesus.

[Zach Dasher]

Right. Some of it was to provide the impetus of who Jesus was.

[Jase Robertson]

I get it. There was repentance. But the whole point was Jesus, this is all a person. The Bible, baptism, the Old Testament. I mean, when you just go through the Old Testament, it's the same pattern. People are created, they have life and then they fall. There's folly, there's sin, there's suffering from consequences of people's sin. And spiritual world, spiritual forces of evil. And then you have this process where they start over. It's like a new creation. I mean, think the flood. I mean, what happened? Everybody was just. Had just completely abandoned and God finds one family. The earth goes from the waters being parted where people could live to a flood. And I'm using this because of 1 Peter 3, obviously, but. And what happens? It's a new beginning, new creation. You're like, oh, we fixed that. No. Then we have more problems pretty quickly. So here comes Abraham. It's the same process over and over. That's why I heard somebody say that the only three people in the Old Testament that were deemed blameless and upright, it was Job, Noah, and Abraham. But when you think about what Jesus did and you think about their stories, they were like shadows of what Jesus would ultimately do, which was bring new creation. Because in all of those stories, new creation, eventually, a new beginning eventually came. So Jesus did the same thing. So my only point is John the Baptist is pointing to Jesus. That's why I think it would be awkward for Jesus to say. To be baptizing people personally, saying, well, you're. I'm gonna baptize you in the one that is to come when he's actually here.

[Zach Dasher]

Right.

[Jase Robertson]

So his disciples did that because you gotta remember, he hasn't revealed. He's revealing that the king is here.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, he doesn't even say in our context till chapter 12 that he's now come. He says is coming. It's coming even though he's physically there.

[Jase Robertson]

Exactly.

[Zach Dasher]

It still had to wait. I think Zach hit on it a while back when he talked about the gentile baptism. The. We call it the proselytizing of gentiles into Judaism. So they would have been familiar with baptism. It was very rare, but that was to bring gentiles into Judaism. So this mindset that I think God was trying to convey to the Jewish people was. Now we're talking about a baptism into something else.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah.

[Zach Dasher]

This is something beyond Judaism. So I think that's what he was doing. I mean, that's just a no.

[Jase Robertson]

I agree. But I think the reason baptism is so misunderstood in the religious world is because they define it.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

And then they go back to the Bible and just like, read it through that lens.

[Zach Dasher]

Right.

[Jase Robertson]

I mean, look, whatever you think about baptism, there's a whole discussion here that they are literally baptizing people.

[Zach Dasher]

That's right.

[Jase Robertson]

Followers of Jesus and John the Baptist. Right here, right now. I mean, they, they were taking people under the water and, and, and doing that. And you're like, well, that wasn't important. I mean, what, what, what was it?

[Zach Dasher]

And to Zach's point it there, John himself says, in one case, it's. It's just Water. And in another case, the Spirit of God is involved in this process. Somehow there's something that's going to change.

[Jase Robertson]

When Acts 2, I just read in 1 Corinthians 12, it said, We've all been given the Spirit to drink. Well, when was that poured out? And I've read this numerous times on the podcast. But in Peter's sermon, he said, jesus went to the right hand of God and has poured out what you now see and hear.

[Zach Dasher]

And that was a prophecy from Joel. So that had been predicted way back. So it was probably.

[Al Robertson]

Yeah, I think the Holy Spirit's role of this is paramount. And as you read, Even in John 3 here, he says, for the 1. This is in verse 34. For the 1 whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. And so if you tie this into the baptism of the Spirit, which is not speaking in tongues. I know people disagree with me on that, but I mean, that is not what it means. To be baptized with the Spirit is the baptism of Jesus.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, the speaking in tongues was a sign that the Spirit was here, had been poured out. I mean, it was a confirmation read, Hebrews 2, 1, 4, that it confirmed. So just like. Because when it said, the Spirit is given without limit, I looked up that phrase because I thought, what does that mean? It's like, is that just without limit? But it seems to be without partiality or it's for everybody. It's available for everybody. I mean, go read the Greek. That was my conclusion after going down the Greek rabbit hole. But what I wanted to say was John also was baptizing at Annan near Salem, because there was plenty of water. Because some people say, well, this had nothing to do with water. Which I think is strange. I mean, he's talking about places on a map where there's rivers and people are constantly coming to be baptized. This was before John was put in prison. An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew or certain Jews or certain Jews over the matter of ceremonial washing, which I think is interesting, because that argument is still alive and well today in a totally different context, because now the Holy Spirit has been poured out and people are being baptized. And then it's how they define baptism, which is a lot of arguments, because people say, well, you saying that you're washing yourself, you know, of course we go to 1 Peter 3. He kind of explains that. But still, it's like, as evangelical followers of Jesus, we can't agree on exactly what that means.

[Al Robertson]

When all five of my kids are together.

[Missy Robertson]

Let me tell you something, dining out with the family can break the bank. Can you testify to that?

[Zach Dasher]

I mean it can break the bank anyway because you got grandkids now in our group. So Jace, that bill gets even higher.

[Jase Robertson]

When you go in friends, friends of.

[Al Robertson]

Kids, it gets wild. So then, then you have the other.

[Missy Robertson]

Option which is you can grocery shop, but that takes a lot of time.

[Al Robertson]

So it's kind of.

[Missy Robertson]

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[Al Robertson]

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[Missy Robertson]

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[Al Robertson]

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[Missy Robertson]

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[Zach Dasher]

One of my favorites, Zach, is the stuffed poblano peppers. They're fantastic. Has a little meat stuffing in there. Very easy to make and put together, but very delicious.

[Missy Robertson]

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[Jase Robertson]

I kind of to go back to Zach's quote, which I think's a good one. I think baptism is a death, thus nullifying any kind of self righteousness that you would put on the act, the actual ceremony. I mean if it's a death you're declaring I'm into Jesus's death, I'm into his burial, his I'm dying, I'm now he's my Lord. That's the way I view it. But to prove my point, when you go to First Corinthians 1, isn't it funny how now we're post spirit being poured out Jesus has died, been buried and raised. The first thing he brings up, controversial issue in Corinth was these dueling dunkers. And I wanted to read this because now it's totally different context now, but same problem. Where's that at? Al First Corinthians 1 in verse 12. Well, he said, you have a lot of quarrels among you. So what I mean is this. One of you says, I follow Paul, another Paulus, another Cephas, still another Christ. Well, we all know there's one group in these four that is right. Christ is all. That's why I brought up the point about John the Baptist. The purpose of his baptism was get people to look for the Messiah is at hand. Here. He's coming. Your repentance is only meaningful because you're wanting to follow the Son of God. So then he says, is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? All these things are no. And then he's like, I'm thankful that I did not baptize in any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. And then he's like, oh, wait, yes, I also baptized the house of Stephanus. Beyond that, I don't remember if I baptize anyone else. That's like me.

[Zach Dasher]

Shows you that it's not. He's not making a hard and fast rule. He's just saying, I generally don't do this because I don't want.

[Jase Robertson]

It was not important. It was not who was doing the best. I don't even remember. And if you tried to tell me, say, make a list of people you baptize, I'll give you four or five. Yeah, probably. I don't remember, nor do I care. It really is. Is.

[Zach Dasher]

It's all about.

[Jase Robertson]

That's why we're different from, I think, a lot of groups where we'll share Jesus with people and we'll baptize them wherever, whenever. I mean, I think that got started because we lived out in the middle of nowhere and we're surrounded by water. Literally. My. My dad's house where we were raised is surrounded by water. There's one little trail to go in. That's why it floods all the time.

[Zach Dasher]

Yeah.

[Jase Robertson]

You're like, oh, this person wants to be baptized. We're like, what, are we going to drive to town? Or we want to walk 20 yards? And so I think it's fascinating. But then he says, I love this verse. And I usually when people come to me and ask me if I Baptize them. I'll say First Corinthians 1:17. They're like, it doesn't ring a bell, you know, For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, what is the gospel story of Jesus?

[Jase Robertson]

The good news of Jesus. Not. Not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied by its power. And so I think that was a thing even. Even when you get to one of the most controversial. Not controversial, one of the most. What is the word for First Corinthians 15 and 29. I guarantee you've never heard this discussed on a podcast, because he brings up in the context, reminding them of the gospel and the resurrection. He brings up this point now, if there's no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? Have you ever heard anybody tell you what that means?

[Zach Dasher]

Nope.

[Jase Robertson]

Zach?

[Al Robertson]

Nope.

[Jase Robertson]

But if you just think about it, the reason I purposefully did this, because if you look at where this book started, this letter, they were putting a lot of emphasis on who was doing the baptism and this ceremony itself to kind of take off John 3. And this. The only explanation I've ever heard that I think makes a little sense is when Paul reminded them of the gospel. You remember in 1514 that he died. According to Scripture, he's buried and he's raised. Then he appeared. He was raised, and he appeared to all these people, Peter. Then to the 12. After that, he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living. So the only reasonable explanation I heard of this is because when you look at the Greek word where it says baptized for the dead, he took that word for. Looked at the Greek meanings, and there was like four different Greek meanings in their culture for that word. Well, one of them was in honor of. And he thought, you know, if you look at that, it makes a little more sense. I'm not saying this is what. Because he wasn't for sure either. He was a Hebrew scholar. But I do think that was interesting. That would make sense. Because if you're, as a human, putting emphasis on who's doing the baptizing, which we obviously have the story in John 3, they're like, oh, look at here. They're. They're baptizing more people than you. That's our human nature. We want to interject ourselves into being the more noble uses of God. Like, look at me. I baptized 14 people yesterday.

[Zach Dasher]

That's right.

[Jase Robertson]

Are you celebrating their experience with Jesus? Are you celebrating the fact that you baptized 14 people, which is a problem.

[Al Robertson]

When I was in college. I won't say the name, but there was a certain individual. I'll just leave it at that. And he was baptizing a lot of people because we. We were. We were on a tear, and he. One time he baptized a guy, and I thought he was kidding when he did it, but he took his belt and he'd, like, made a notch in his belt, and he said, got another one. And I was like, what do you mean?

[Zach Dasher]

He was going back to the Old West?

[Al Robertson]

Oh. I was like, he's not. He's notching him. I said, well, it's not really about. I kind of made the point. You made. And. And, well, you didn't make the point. Paul made the point. But, I mean, we. We're not doing. I.

[Zach Dasher]

You're.

[Al Robertson]

You're a vessel. You're a servant. You're like. And if you're doing it based on. If you're baptizing people or leading them to Christ based on some of your own, like, sales job on it, I think you got to ask yourself the question, what's that? Who. What. What are they actually coming to? Well, which is a problem. Right.

[Zach Dasher]

And so I'll say my. On my view, when I teach First Corinthians of that text, of that phrase you mentioned, Jace, is that I've always thought Paul was speaking of a practice that was going on. He's not necessarily endorsing it. He's just making an argument.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, yeah, well, that was my point. I think a lot of people have.

[Zach Dasher]

Taken that as an argument now. Oh, well, we got to baptize for the dead. But that's not what he said.

[Jase Robertson]

I think they were having ceremonies. I mean, it's my opinion I could be wrong. Where they were.

[Zach Dasher]

You don't know.

[Jase Robertson]

They were being baptized in honor of people who had shared Jesus with them or, you know, people who were dead. And that was the thing, which. It sounds like a great idea.

[Zach Dasher]

Let's go have we have a practice now in different groups, this kind of penance for purgatory, where you can basically sacrifice for people that have already gone on.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, there's a. Yeah. There's a couple of different religious groups who have more followers than anybody else, that that's what they do, and that's where they get it. That's why I wanted to bring it up. I was simply making the point. It's very clear that who is doing the baptizing is. Is. It's a. It's a battleground for People's pride because somehow another. They think that that's meaningful. And this has nothing to do with you. This is a completely. That's why I said it's a death. It's a surrender. When you.

[Zach Dasher]

Well. And that becomes the heart of the argument. Back to our text, because the argument was over ceremonial Washington. But look what he says next in verse 26. These people who are arguing this came to John and said, rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan, the one you testified about, well, he is baptizing. Everyone's going to him. They're like, well, how can what you're doing still be relevant if this guy's. That that was their issue. And they were like, what does this mean? Somehow they understood what John was doing and saw it as necessary. But all of a sudden, when Jesus disciples started doing it, it was like, well, that doesn't compute. There can only be one guy.

[Jase Robertson]

That's the guy, you know, what comes forward out of this. That there's always a temptation for human beings, even in the religious world to want to take the credit or the glory for their particular platform, ministry, whatever. And you see its roots right here, before Jesus has even died. They're arguing about, well, wait a minute now. Are you saying through this ceremony that they're now okay, you know, I mean, you don't know what the details of the argument over the ceremonial Washington or you're saying, well, look, Jesus, what are you going to do about this? Or I mean, John, what are you going to do about this? They're baptizing more than you. I thought you were the guy. He's like, well, no, I wasn't the guy. I said to believe in the guy. And now he's fixing to say, hey, that is the guy. Yeah, that's what he basically said.

[Zach Dasher]

Zach, what was that quote? I think it's a political quote, but the one that says we all succeed if we don't care who gets the credit. Credit. I mean, it's a political.

[Al Robertson]

I've always. I've always attributed to Ronald Reagan. I don't know who said it, but it was. It's amazing what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit for it.

[Zach Dasher]

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[Al Robertson]

You're doing fruit trees. I'm doing what they call a Cyprus.

[Zach Dasher]

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[Jase Robertson]

I do think there's something about, you know, say, I mean, sharing conversion stories because that there is excitement and passion about that. But I'm not big on numbers. I realize it. There's a book in the Bible called numbers, you know, but people are scrambling. They're like, you know, 17 people raised their hand, you know, and it, it's in the newsletter and our target's, you know, 10,000 by 100 days or what. We're so obsessed and it's almost coming from the wrong place, you know.

[Zach Dasher]

Well, even, even dad got a little bit of pushback from some of our audience early on because he would use the term a lot. We converted this or that person or he would use the worm words. We converted.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah, I don't use that phrase, and.

[Zach Dasher]

I don't either, and dad did. But I can tell you this, know my dad as well as we do. He was not Taking credit for their conversion. No, that was just a phrase, a terminology he grew up hearing.

[Al Robertson]

And so, yeah, you might. You might hear it say it said like this. Like, yeah, I witnessed to him. Yeah, I shared.

[Zach Dasher]

We helped lead him to the Lord. Right, right, right.

[Jase Robertson]

We're not taking credit, bringing up a whole nother can of worms, because it's like, we get that witness from people who were eyewitnesses when they were witnessing. They were like, hey, I saw him come up from the dead. They're like, well, give your witness. Well, I didn't witness anything, but I. I read this book, and I guess that qualifies me because I believe the eyewitnesses who saw him. I don't mind the word. I was just clarifying.

[Al Robertson]

It's interesting. I know we're gonna run out of time in a second here, but I do think John's Reply in verse 27 is just like, oh, it's such a. He just cuts through the entire thing.

[Zach Dasher]

Read it, Zach.

[Al Robertson]

Yeah, he. So they're basically. Set it up. They're arguing over. There's like this faction going on this territorial dispute. And to this, John replied, a person can receive only what is given them from heaven.

[Jase Robertson]

Bumper sticker. Oh, man, there's. There's a lot of bumper sticker statements he makes. He. He makes another one in verse 10. He must become greater, I must become less. Yeah, And I think the final one you already mentioned, where he says, he gives the spirit without partiality or without limit.

[Al Robertson]

Yeah. And then he. And then John, he goes back to them and says, you yourselves can testify that I said, I am not the Messiah, but am sent ahead of him. And I think that what he's doing here. Well, it's not. I don't think. I mean, it's definitely what he's doing here. He's basically saying that, like, we're not constructing this thing, guys. Like, we. Anything that I'm given to you, anything that anybody's given out in terms of the kingdom is coming from heaven. It's not coming from. It's not beginning or. Or, you know, originating in our own will and our own mind. Like, God's giving this. I love that because it does really put the perspective back in. Like, hey, if I want to take credit for anything at the end of the day, and there's a danger, by the way, if I take credit for what the Lord is doing, then here's two things that happen. If it fails, then that's on me. And if it succeeds, then I'm going to get super arrogant, because it's on me. And I think that that's why the Lord's always like, don't. This isn't your credit to have. You can't handle this. This is not you. You can't construct this. And. And I've tried this in my life, and I've. I think we've all kind of slipped into that mentality of, I'm gonna take Babul by the horns, and I'm gonna make sure this outcome happens the way that I think it should happen. And every time that I. I fall into that trap, I. The frustration, typically from the. Whoever else is around me who has put. Who has allowed me to put myself in the position of Christ in their life in whatever capacity that may look like. Maybe it's my marriage, maybe it's friendships, maybe it's as an elder of a church. But when you take on that weight, man, you better be able to perform. You better be able to deliver. Here's the problem. You can't deliver. You can't deliver only what God can deliver.

[Jase Robertson]

Yeah. Which I think what John the Baptist did greater than anything was he didn't add drama to this argument.

[Zach Dasher]

No.

[Jase Robertson]

He immediately said, no, listen. Listen to my role in this. So he says that he can only receive what is from heaven. Then he says, you yourselves. This is verse 28, can testify that I said, I am not the Christ, but am sent ahead of him. The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice, which I love this picture of when he goes to the wedding, which now was where Jesus did his first sign. We would eventually become the bride of Christ. He's the head of the church. I mean, that's the narrative he goes through.

[Zach Dasher]

Our p. Our modern picture is the best man. Although in their culture, the friend of the groom, the best man did a lot more. I mean, he set everything up for what was going to happen.

[Jase Robertson]

And that's why he led to saying his joy is now complete. He's like, I am completely just my joy. This is what I was here for. He must become greater. I must become less. So. That ended the argument. That's another Bumper's digger, which ends most arguments when someone becomes less so. Then he says, the one who comes from above is above all. The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks as one from the earth. Now, look, for years, I thought this was talking about John the Baptist and Jesus. But the more I studied and I forgot where I read, one of these scholars made a point here that John the Baptist was technically from heaven. Also remember the argument where when Jesus that he was asked, where did you get this, this authority? And then he said, well, I got a question. John's baptism, was it from heaven or from men? Is what he says there. And they're like, well, we don't know. Because if we say it's from heaven.

[Zach Dasher]

We'Re arguing with God.

[Jase Robertson]

Why wouldn't we do this? And if we say it's from men, well, all these people think John the Baptist is from heaven. So they say, we don't know. But Jesus doesn't answer the question. He says, well, then I'm not going to tell you where I get my authority. But I think this may be a reference to, you know, either the evil one or. Because earthly is always deemed. I read that last podcast about wisdom from the earth is unspiritual of the devil.

[Zach Dasher]

We get the concept worldly from that. A worldly mindset versus a godly mindset.

[Jase Robertson]

So I remember NT Wright says this is kind of a synopsis of where we're at in the story where it's like John is saying this because then he goes on to say, the one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. Which is another bumper sticker for the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God. For God gives the spirit without limit. The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands, which is awesome statement. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. But whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

[Zach Dasher]

All right, so we're out of time.

[Jase Robertson]

Well, we can pick that up because I do think we need to discuss that. Because this comes the words of life, the words of death, which I think is the point. Think about what's earthly. You're going to die. You're going to die here. But if you have the spirit, if you're born of the spirit, well, now you have something that's from heaven which is going to be poured out in Acts 2. Well, guess what? Since it came from heaven, you're no longer bound to death.

[Zach Dasher]

Right?

[Jase Robertson]

That's why you live.

[Zach Dasher]

I like it. So we'll pick that up next time. There's a, there's a Josie Wells quote in there. You just hit the words of life and words of Death. Will have to talk about that next time.

[Jase Robertson]

Why it was such a great movie.

[Zach Dasher]

Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast, and don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.