Ep 1151 | Phil & Missy Unknowingly Preach the Same Sermon Across Time & Is Our Flesh Evil?

Summary

Unashamed with the Robertson Family – Ep 1151

Episode Title: Phil & Missy Unknowingly Preach the Same Sermon Across Time & Is Our Flesh Evil?
Date: August 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Robertson clan (Jase, Zach, and guest Christian McCaffrey) wade deep into Christian doctrine, exploring how God’s nearness is experienced, how the indwelling of the Holy Spirit shapes Christian life, and the misunderstood nature of the “flesh” in Scripture. Weaving in powerful personal anecdotes, family banter, and robust biblical exposition, the group links their own faith journeys to timeless scriptural truths. The episode also unexpectedly finds Jase and Missy preaching the same message—across time and geography—underscoring the unity of the Spirit in teaching.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Aloneness, Childhood, and the Presence of God

[01:24 – 08:24]

• Jase shares a childhood story about being left alone by his father in a frigid duck blind, wrestling with loneliness, fear, and the elements.
  • Quote:
    “I thought I was alone in a pretty terrifying place... I survived.” – Jase [07:19]
• This experience led Jase to a profound early awareness of God's creation.
  • Quote:
    “A little suffering brings clarity to the mind... you’re vulnerable. Somebody made this.” – Jase [07:44]
• Zach and Jase connect these experiences to Romans 1:
  • Humanity has no excuse for not perceiving God, for His qualities are evident in creation.

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2. The Nearness of God: Is God Far or Close?

[10:34 – 18:22]

• Zach draws a parallel from Joshua and Judges: how quickly people forget God's works, a pattern also seen in modern faith culture.
• Jase recounts preaching on Acts 17 in Athens, where Missy read Paul’s Mars Hill speech aloud, generating unexpected dialogue with a Russian skeptic.
• Discussion turns to Paul's assertion in Acts 17 that God “is not far from any one of us.”
  • Quote:
    “How far is God?... In Acts 17, Paul said... he is not far from each one of us.” – Jase [17:44]
• The group observes religious culture’s tendency to treat God as distant, in contrast to the biblical declaration of His nearness.
  • Quote:
    “I think we tend to have God way off. When you read something like that, it doesn’t seem like He’s very far.” – Jase [18:13]

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3. Union of Heaven and Earth: God's ‘House’ and the Spirit’s Indwelling

[20:01 – 23:14]

• From John 14, Jase highlights the “two houses with many rooms”—one in heaven, one on earth—linking Jesus preparing a place for believers to the Spirit making a ‘home’ in them now.
• The only two biblical uses of a certain Greek word for “rooms” both appear in John 14 (vv. 2 and 23).
  • Quote:
    “My father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.” – Jase [21:15]
• The Spirit’s presence in the believer marks God’s ultimate nearness.
  • Quote:
    “How close is that? Can’t get any closer.” – Jase [22:36]

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4. Paul’s Method in Acts: Meeting People Where They Seek God

[24:57 – 31:26]

• Christian McCaffrey notes Paul’s custom in Acts: at each city, he seeks places where people expect to meet God (synagogues for Jews, Areopagus for Greeks) to reveal the true God and announce Christ.
  • Quote:
    “Paul... goes to the place where you would think God would meet with man... then he tells them: God doesn’t live in your temples built by man’s hands.” – Christian McCaffrey [27:22]
• They reflect on how Jesus embodies the new “temple”: God’s dwelling with humanity.
  • Quote:
    “He makes that famous line: I am the temple. I am the place where people meet.” – Jase [34:49]

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5. Is Our Flesh Evil? The Biblical View of Body, Spirit, and Redemption

[36:37 – 56:21]

• The group tackles the question: “Is our flesh evil?”
  • Christian explains Gnosticism, the ancient heresy that deems flesh inherently evil and spirit inherently good.
  • They clarify that Paul’s “flesh” refers to a corrupted will, not the physical body itself.
  • Quote:
    “If [the flesh] was [inherently bad], Jesus incarnated into something inherently bad.” – Christian McCaffrey [37:13]
  • Quote:
    “If you read that as the physical, actual DNA and flesh is evil, well, that’s a form of Gnosticism... The Christian teaching is: God made the earth, and he said it is good. He made human flesh, and he said it’s very good.” – Christian McCaffrey [38:26]
• The body is meant for the Lord; resurrection means bodies matter.
  • Quote:
    “Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit... Glorify God with your body.” – Christian McCaffrey [51:22]
• Zach highlights confusion at funerals where bodies are dismissed (“That’s not him anymore”), pushing back:
  • Quote:
    “No, that’s still them... That part will be resurrected, and it’s going to be amazing.” – Zach [42:38]
• Jase walks through Romans 8 and Galatians 5: it’s not flesh itself that’s evil, but life lived apart from God in fleshly passions.
• The “three-part” human (body, soul, spirit) is ultimately one; you can’t parcel yourself.
  • Quote:
    “That’s you. That’s one.” – Jase [53:48]
• All are kept blameless, whole, only through the Spirit.

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Notable Quotes (With Timestamps)

• “A little suffering brings clarity to the mind... you’re vulnerable. Somebody made this.” – Jase [07:44]
• “How far is God? ... Paul said ... he is not far from each one of us.” – Jase [17:44]
• “My father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.” – Jase [21:15]
• “He makes that famous line: I am the temple. I am the place where people meet.” – Jase [34:49]
• “If [the flesh] was [inherently bad], Jesus incarnated into something inherently bad.” – Christian McCaffrey [37:13]
• “Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit... Glorify God with your body.” – Christian McCaffrey [51:22]
• “No, that’s still them... That part will be resurrected, and it’s going to be amazing.” – Zach [42:38]
• “If you think [God] is a long way away, you’ve missed something about the Holy Spirit.” – Jase [56:11]

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Memorable Moments

• The Mars Hill Story: Missy’s reading of Acts 17 aloud in Athens leading to an encounter with a skeptical Russian—a living echo of Paul’s experience.
  • Quote:
    “I don’t agree with that.” – Skeptical Russian (recounted by Jase) [14:25] “Then why are you here?” – Missy [15:26]
• “Fish is the key!”: Discussion on Jesus eating fish after resurrection to demonstrate the goodness of a redeemed body—even the resurrection “hinges on fish.” [40:00]
• Rooming With Jesus: Jase imagines telling a college roommate, “Well, I’m rooming with Jesus, or he’s rooming with me…” to illustrate the union of heavenly and earthly realities. [29:05]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:24 – 08:24] – Jase’s duck blind childhood story and the realization of God’s presence in creation.
• [10:34 – 18:24] – Acts 17, Mars Hill, and the question of God’s nearness.
• [20:01 – 23:14] – John 14: God’s “house,” and the Spirit’s indwelling.
• [24:57 – 31:26] – Paul’s approach in Acts: Where do people seek God?
• [36:37 – 56:21] – The nature of “flesh,” what’s meant by “corrupted will,” Gnosticism, resurrection, and the unity of body and spirit.
• [42:20 – 43:03] – Funeral theology: What does resurrection mean for the body?
• [53:48 – 54:22] – Can we divide body, spirit, and soul?
• [56:11 – end] – Never alone: The Holy Spirit’s presence is ultimate nearness.

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Conclusion

This episode serves as a deep, honest, and often humorous reflection on foundational Christian questions. The Robertsons and Christian McCaffrey tie theological exploration to real-life experience, ultimately centering on this: Through Christ and by the Spirit, God is both near and dwelling in His people—now, not just in the “sweet by and by.” The episode confronts misunderstanding about flesh and spirit, challenges listeners to experience God's presence daily, and reminds all that in Christ, believers are never alone.

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Transcript

[Christian McCaffrey]

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[Jason]

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[Zach]

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[Christian McCaffrey]

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[Zach]

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[Jason]

We help you save. I am unashamed. What about you?

[Zach]

Welcome back to Unashamed. I feel like the band's back together. I'm back in my normal spot. Jason, do you ever get lonely when I'm not here?

[Jason]

Yeah, it's. Thanks for answering that for me, Zach.

[Zach]

I think brace is coming from a man who once said when we left him in the blind, we went home, we got lunch, we brought it back, and somebody said, well, Jace, were you lonely out here in the blind? He said, I find that the best conversations I have are the ones I have with myself.

[Jason]

It all goes back to when I was 9 years old and I had gone duck hunting a couple times and my dad was guiding at the time and so he asked me if I wanted to go with him for a week. Look, pull me out of school. So I was in after I heard that. Yeah.

[Zach]

Which our dad was always great about that. Anyway, we've said this before on the podcast, if you got a certain number of days, that's how many days you were sick.

[Jason]

Exactly. Well, he.

[Zach]

And it was mostly hunting is what.

[Jason]

He deemed it duck fever. So he took me to this beat up trailer that eventually was burned due to we were overtaken by mice. I'm talking about tens of thousands would have made a great.

[Zach]

It was an like a trailer, like.

[Christian McCaffrey]

It'S like a camp trail. You're sleeping there, there.

[Zach]

But I slept there once and vowed to never come back again.

[Jason]

So about two days into this, I realized because I didn't get to go hunting the first day, I was like, I think my dad got me out here to battle these mice and to clean this trailer up. I mean, I came here to hunt.

[Christian McCaffrey]

So he just left you in the trailer by yourself.

[Jason]

That's it. And I was kind of going crazy, you know, so this is. We're doing some therapy here. So finally, I had a talk with him at night because they come in, they shot some dust. I was like, well, when am I gonna get to go? And he's like, well, I'm. I'm working. This is how we make a living. You're helping. I was like, I'd really like to go one day. That's why.

[Christian McCaffrey]

Did you ask him why you were there? You brought me out here. What's the.

[Jason]

I didn't ask him, Zach, because it was pretty obvious I was there to clean up and to be a handyman.

[Zach]

It was the un. It was like the writing code. It's unwritten.

[Christian McCaffrey]

It's like that scene in the Blind when. In the. In the movie, though, we got. Al comes out and.

[Jason]

And he.

[Christian McCaffrey]

Phil says, you don't know the woods. So that was your. You had that same moment.

[Jason]

Well, it's like, since we're doing this thing about houses and, you know, in my father's house, for many rooms, I. I basically was taken out of one house that I viewed as a prison, which was school. And I just moved into another prison where it's like, now I'm this close to being able to duck hunt, and I can't.

[Zach]

But it was a worst prison because it was infested by mice.

[Christian McCaffrey]

He went from the schoolhouse to the rat house.

[Jason]

So what happened was I said, I'd like to go one day. That. That's a missing a week of school out of this. Then I was, like, trying to make him feel guilty, you know, I'm like. He said. I tell you what he said the last day, I'll let you go. Well, I thought I would go with them, but he had. He had, like, clients every day.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

So. And it happened to be the coldest day a front came through. I mean, it was below freezing. The wind was howling. And before daylight, he carried. I'm in a boat with six men here. And he drops me off at the base of a tree. Look, with no flashlight. It's dark. And he putters. I'm nine years old.

[Zach]

He's just now conjuring up a lot of images in my own mind, Al.

[Jason]

I start climbing this tree. And of course, when you're a kid, everything seems bigger. And I'm like, I think I'm going to the top of this tree. And, I mean, I realized at some point, if I fall, I'm dying, and there's no One here.

[Zach]

There are things out there to eat you.

[Jason]

Yeah, but you know, it's. It's more the. So cold. I get up into the top of that tree, which was at least, I would say 40ft up in that tree. And it's just an old beat up, blind, no brush on it, you know. And that was. That was the coldest day of my life. I had one pair of old coveralls, non insulated.

[Zach]

This was pre clothing deals. We had only what we could scrounge.

[Jason]

I was by myself till noon. And so when they came to get me, two ducks got up out of my decoys. And my dad started hollering, why didn't you shoot those ducks? Well, what he didn't realize is that in that morning, at some point I had to take a leak. And I was so cold that I couldn't get my zipper back up on my coveralls. And those two ducks came in without me calling. And I was so cold, I literally couldn't raise my gun up. I was in first stages of hypothermia.

[Zach]

What is the. What is the statute of limitations for child abuse?

[Christian McCaffrey]

Say, you know what? Well, the therapist once told me that all behavior is explainable in its context.

[Zach]

And so now we're really diving into the deep.

[Christian McCaffrey]

I mean, this is good because I remember how mean you were. And now I realize you had. You had so much pain and trauma in your life that you.

[Zach]

But Jace just described every deer hunt that I was ever on as a child. Some people don't like, oh my goodness. I mean, it ruined me for it. Now I can. Jay's finally taught me into just going out and watching them. But for years, I could not even go because my experience was just like Jace described. And then dad would be like, where were you looking? Were you watching? I was. I would know. I was frozen. I had hypothermia pre sleep. I was just, you know, minutes away from dying myself.

[Jason]

I felt that way. And maybe it seems bigger than that, but I accurately describe my memory of it. It. But I told you that story because I thought I was alone in a pretty terrifying place. And I thought.

[Zach]

And you survived.

[Jason]

I survived.

[Zach]

Yeah. Which would help. Which helped you to be alone in the studio now, which is where we start.

[Jason]

So, yeah, every time y' all are not here, I'm looking around and, well, it's better than that tree that I was in at night.

[Zach]

Some days, very cold. I will say Maddie keeps it very cold in here, but you know, a.

[Jason]

Part of me, because they were shooting about every 20 minutes also.

[Zach]

Oh, so you're listening to that?

[Jason]

So I'm listening.

[Zach]

Yeah, that's bad.

[Jason]

And I just kind of took in all the beauty of it. And I'm going to be honest here. I think it was one of the seeds first planted in my brain, considering. I think we read Romans one last time. Just don't. Based on what has been made. Now think about that phrase, Romans 1. Where's that, Jack? Verse 20, 21. That all men are without excuse. I just took in the beauty of creation and look, a little suffering brings clarity to the mind.

[Zach]

It does.

[Jason]

And you realize that you're vulnerable. And I thought, wow, yeah.

[Zach]

Romans 1:20.

[Jason]

Somebody made this, by the way, Al, I went down a rabbit hole about a week ago on Romans 1 based on that verse, because it says the wrath of God is being revealed against all who suppress the truth. And they neither glorify God or give him thanks. And then he makes.

[Zach]

They're ignoring what they see is kind of.

[Jason]

But you know what I found fascinating from Romans 1:18 to 32. So how many verses is that? 14 or 15?

[Zach]

15, probably.

[Jason]

Yeah. 15 verses. Do you know how many times people or a. I don't know what the grammar is for that. Or they. Or them or men or women. You know how many times that that's mentioned in those 15 verses? 35 times. And so you're like, I just. If you look at it from being a human on our planet, because that's what he's kind of focusing on, that you can see my divine qualities. You can see them and you. And you see all this sin that happens and the lack of thankfulness, and you're the problem.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jason]

35 times.

[Zach]

Exactly.

[Jason]

You've caused this or it wouldn't. I mean, I just thought that was fascinating.

[Zach]

I don't know why it plays. I'm so glad you brought this up. So this is why I love the podcast, the weeks I'm preaching, because I'm preaching Sunday, but I'm. I'm kind of wrapping up the book of Joshua. And Joshua, interestingly, at the end of the book basically says, if you can't look around and see what God has done and brought you to this point and see how dysfunctional the culture you came into was. I don't know what else to tell you, but it's just what you just described. It's like. And yet, shockingly, a few years goes by and we get into the Book of Judges and it's worse than ever. I mean, so people do forget the very things that they See, it's just. You think, how could you? But all it takes is a generation.

[Jason]

Well, I think our religious culture has kind of contributed to this because, you know, I. I preached. I say preached, whatever you want to call it. Sunday night at. I told you about that event. I did. And I started actually, because they asked me to do it on Acts 17. Why Act 17? Because they've heard me probably many times.

[Zach]

You know, that's one of your go to.

[Jason]

Oh, I just.

[Zach]

It's one of Zach's go to.

[Jason]

Well, it's Zach's only apologetic study in the Book of Acts, so he's got to hang his head on it. I mean, the whole time is there just preaching Jesus. I mean, the same thing. Remember how Phil used to go through the Book of Acts? He's like, let's see how many times they preach the gospel in the book of Acts 45 minutes later. Because it is almost every other verse. They preach him crucified, resurrected. What are you going to do about it? You know, over and over and over and over.

[Christian McCaffrey]

So, Jase, I think you told me recently that you cut your kid's cell phone bill off at 18 and turn it over to them. Is that correct?

[Jason]

That was my advice because I thought after I gave them, you know, many words of wisdom about how to use a cell phone indignity. But when they got to 18, I'm.

[Christian McCaffrey]

Like, they're on your own.

[Jason]

You're on your own.

[Christian McCaffrey]

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[Jason]

Then all of a sudden in Act 17, kind of an apologetic speech comes out, right? And, and of course I told the story about Missy reading that when we went to Athens because that's the setting there. And she read that it was me and old Larry Bowles and we had a little team of people and she read it and I mean, she's getting misty eyed and we're getting teared up. We're at the same rock. Because if you ever go to Athens, Greece and get on that rock and read that passage and imagine 2000 years.

[Zach]

Ago because the Acropolis is right above you.

[Jason]

So you can see Paul giving that speech. You see the set. You actually see how it was functional where you're on the rock, all these people are below. She reads that chapter. I know we, we've shared this before, but. And here's this Russian voice out of nowhere because there's, it's a, it's a tourist place. He's like, I don't agree with that. But he said it booming well, we look around, it's just one guy has stopped and listened and said, I don't agree with that.

[Zach]

And you're like, Shaq, who?

[Jason]

What?

[Zach]

What?

[Jason]

She read Acts 17, that speech that Paul gave. You know, the Lord of heaven and earth does not live in temples by hand. You know, it goes on. He's given all men life and breath and everything else from one man. He made all nations of men. And it gets down to the, it says we're God's offspring. And then it's like he set a day where he will judge the world. He's given proof by raising Jesus from the dead. And here's a response. I don't agree with that.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And so Missy had a very good answer to that. She said, then why are you here? Which he then shared. You know how much pain and suffering he had had. He's like, everything in my life up until this point has been abused and killed. I mean, he was a bitter human. And he said, I don't believe there's a guy. And then ask him, well, why are you here?

[Zach]

Which is a great question.

[Jason]

Yeah. And it turned out to be a one hour study. Once Larry Bowes, I mean, Missy got really mad because I didn't like come to a rescue. But I was like, babe, you were doing fine.

[Christian McCaffrey]

But I did. I just sent you a picture. Look at that. Picture essential. Put it on the screen. Maddie, you can. I've sent it to you. Yeah. I don't think this has ever been seen before, this picture. I took it when we were at Mars Hill. I don't think I've ever shared it publicly, but it's an incredible, incredible.

[Zach]

Because when dad did it, we were filming and. But we were kind of guerrilla filming because we weren't supposed to be filming up there. And for, you know, something you're going to reproduce and. But so the people thought dad was just like giving a speech. And so everybody started clapping and cheering members that people were crying.

[Christian McCaffrey]

Yeah, they were. The crowd gathered around.

[Jason]

I got so into my story, I forgot the point I was making. The point is, in that sermon on Sunday night, I asked a question. I said, how far is God? It's the first thing I said. Because the last time I was there, I asked a question. I said, if you close your eyes and picture God, what do you see? The answers were quite revealing. But in this question I was like, how far is God away from us? Which nobody said anything. I really wasn't looking for an answer. I just wanted them to think. But in that sermon In Acts 17, Paul said something. I want to tie this back to Romans 1 and where we're at in John 14, in Acts 17 and verse 26, that's the part where it said. It's already said, he's given man life, breath and everything else. He's already said he made the world and everything in it. Which is going back to Romans 1, you see where he's like. And so then he's like. And from. He's given them life, breath, everything else. Then from one man, he made every nation of men that they should live on the earth. That's where we're at. Determine the time set for them, the exact places where they should live. He did this so men would seek him and reach out for him. And then there's this phrase, though he is not far from each one of.

[Zach]

Us.

[Jason]

So why would he say that?

[Zach]

And then he even qualifies it. For in him we live and move and have our being.

[Jason]

Yeah, and what I was going to say is in our religious culture, I think we tend to have God way off. And maybe if we understand everything and figure this out and do the right thing, then we can go way off to him one day. And when you read something like that, you're like, doesn't seem like he's very far.

[Zach]

Yeah, close.

[Jason]

I actually had a psalm that says, if you turn to him and call on him, he is near. Where is that at?

[Zach]

You see that a lot?

[Jason]

Oh, yeah. So which is it? You know, if he's not very far and he's near. I don't know if I ever wrote that down.

[Zach]

Zach, you know what the title of my sermon is? Sunday. You're going to like this.

[Jason]

The end.

[Zach]

Not yet.

[Jason]

Now, here it is. Here it is. Psalm 145, 17, 20. Very, very good. So you say. What are you saying? What I'm saying is when I was in that blind at 9 years old and unable to actually hunt due to. I mean, I had a God came near experience just based on what was made. I looked around and I started thinking, you know, I hadn't given my life to the Lord. I'm just looking. He seemed near. You know, when you think about all the critters that are functioning, the plants are coming up. I mean, if you ask a botanist, you know, how does a flower get here? You'll be surprised that at some point you're going to realize he'll give you all the scientific reason and all the. All the photos.

[Zach]

The verb is.

[Jason]

But you'll realize at some point he doesn't know.

[Zach]

He can describe the process. He can't describe the process.

[Jason]

He does not know how that flower got here. It is simply unexplainable.

[Zach]

That's a good point.

[Jason]

And so when you get to John 14 and he's talking about where we left off with these two houses that are described with many rooms, but they're in different places, one of them is in heaven because he's like, I'm going there to prepare a place for you. Well, we know where he went. I mean, this echoes John 13:3, where it says he knew that he came from God and was returning to God.

[Zach]

Right?

[Jason]

So the whole context is, I'm leaving. Well, where's he going? So actually, Al, when it says, in my father's house, well, you're like, where does the Father live? He lives in heaven. Right? But then when you read the other place where this Greek word is used, in my father's house are many rooms. So we're like, well, that's, you know, he's going there and there are rooms and I'm going to make a place for you there. You'll have a presence through me. But then he says in 1423, I don't think it's by accident. Why is he using this word that's only used twice in the Bible.

[Zach]

Yeah, that's where we left off last week.

[Jason]

Yeah. To say, my father, if anyone loves me, this is 1423, he will obey my teaching. My father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home. So same phrase as there are many rooms in my Father's house. There are homes. Now we're talking about on Earth because we're here on earth. Correct. Well, he's coming. Well, we know that's through the Holy Spirit, because the part in between 14:1 and 2 and verse 23 is this introduction to the Spirit. But in light of how far is he when he says this in 1416. So now we're in the middle. I'm going to go to the Father and I'm going to ask him, and he will give you another counselor to be with you forever. So how far is that? You say, well, I don't know if he's with me. Evidently, it's not very far. Right. But then he goes on to say, the world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you. But then it says, and will be in you. Well, how close is that?

[Zach]

Can't get any closer.

[Jason]

Can't get any closer. So when I ask that question, how far is God? It's a really good question. If you go down that rabbit hole and all of a sudden you talking about help your prayer life, you realize you have the presence of God in you and you're in the presence of God the Father. Through Jesus, it gives you this picture of heaven and earth being joined through God and people as Jesus being the intersection.

[Zach]

So, Jase, there's three things I know about your little dogs there that bark every time I come to your door.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Zach]

One, you love them like their family. Two, they're two of your most loyal friends. Three, sadly, they won't live as long as you'd like them to.

[Jason]

That is very True, Al.

[Zach]

So 50% of all dogs over the age of 10 die from cancer, unfortunately. And the leading cause of that cancer is the food that they've been fed. So our old friend Dennis Black, who's the founder of Ruff Greens, his product promises to make our dogs, our pets happier and healthier while they're here. And we love that. Ruff Greens is full of the live nutrients that your pup needs to fight off skin, joint, and digestive problems and yes, even cancer. With live vitamins, probiotics, enzymes, omega oils and antioxidants. Ruff Greens has all the live nutrition that your pup needs to stay happy and healthy. That's why it's America's number one dog supplement. I've got dogs, they line up every day waiting for their rough greens product. Their coats are shinier. Even my cat Linda down at the Southern layer, I know it's a weird name for a cat, but Linda, Lisa was just commenting on how great her coat looks and she has started eating rough greens as well. So here's what you do. You fetch a free Jump Start trial bag for your dog today. Just cover shipping and see the difference live nutrition can make in your dog. Try it before you buy it. Go to roughgreens.com and use the discount code unashamed. That's R u f f greens.com discount code unashamed.

[Christian McCaffrey]

It's interesting that Acts 17 part the way you could tie that into. I've always thought this is really interesting how you mentioned that that's the place where he gives the apologetic. But if you actually look at the. There's about three, two or three chapters here where Paul's going to different cities. And so Athens for the first one he goes to in Acts 17 is Thessalonica. And he goes into the synagogue of the Jews and he gives them another type of apologetic. It's not the same one they gave the Greeks, but it was an apologetic. He just did it from the Scriptures. And so basically he pulls out the Hebrew scriptures and he reasoned with them from the scriptures about why Christ is who he said he was and why he had to come, why he had to be killed and buried and raised on the third day. So he's. But he's using the scriptures. But I think it's interesting where he goes, he goes to the synagogue and the synagogues happened. I believe the way they came about was after the first temple was destroyed, they created these kind of micro communities where they could have a place, a gathering place to do their prayers. And some. They didn't do sacrifices there. You can only do the sacrifice in the temple. But it's. But it was kind of the meeting place where they would meet with God. And so it's interesting that Paul always goes to those center places of where that, that that community is happening where. Where is man meeting with God. And in the Jewish case it was obviously the temple was the apex of that, but also these synagogues were also those places. And so he goes To Thessalonica. Where does he go? He goes to the place where they're going to where they're going to be meeting at them. When you get to Acts 17, where he goes into the Areopagus, which is the. That. But that was the place where the Greek philosophers went to meet with God. They had all, remember they had the statues up and one to an unknown God. So that was the place where they went to meet with their version of how they understood God to be. Which they had a lot of different gods. But that was kind of the Greco Roman pagan culture at the time. But if you were to say, where's the center place of where do you guys meet up to actually meet with God? It would have been on Mars hill at the Areopagus. Then he goes to Corinth in Acts 17. And guess where he goes. The synagogue. Acts 18:4. And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, trying to persuade the Jews and the Greeks.

[Zach]

Well then starting point in every city. You're right, every city.

[Christian McCaffrey]

Then he goes to Antioch. Where did he go? He went to. Now he. He himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews. But then he goes to Ephesus. Where does he go? Verse 8, chapter 19. And he entered the synagogue and continues speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading with them. Guess what he was persuading them about the kingdom of God. That's what the scripture says. So I think it's interesting that Paul, when he is on his missionary journey, that he goes to the place where you would think God would meet with man. And he's actually telling them. Well, he's actually telling the Jews and the Greeks the same thing in a different way. He's saying God. Now that's his whole point. God doesn't live in your temples built by man's hands. I mean, he tells the, the. He tells the Greeks that. He tells the Jew. He tells everybody that he's like, God is going to live in human beings, which is the part we're at in the gospel. John John 14. That's what that. That's the case that's unfolding, that Jesus is going to make. I gotta go. Because if I don't come, he's not going to come. But if he comes, he's going to live in you.

[Zach]

Which, you know where you got the idea from? Zach, you remember when Jesus went into the synagogue and started reading Isaiah 53 about himself?

[Jason]

Oh yeah.

[Zach]

Remember he was reading the passage and they were like, who's he? Who's the guy down. He Just looks at him is like, I mean, he did it himself. Is. I'm the guy. Yeah.

[Jason]

Well, so basically you conclude there's this big house with two locations and we're rooming with the creator of the universe, or he's rooming with us. Yeah, I did that on purpose.

[Zach]

Yeah, I got that.

[Jason]

Well, because we're rooming with him in heaven, in the God. God's house, but he's rooming with us here as God's house through the Holy Spirit. That's what this is actually true. But if you. If someone came up to you and said, oh, you. You know, I just got into college or whatever, you know, well, who's your roommate? And say, well, I'm. I'm rooming with Jesus or he's rooming with me, depending on your, you know, John 14:2 and John 14:23.

[Christian McCaffrey]

Yeah.

[Jason]

People would think you were literally.

[Zach]

Well, that's why we said in the last podcast, is heaven a place? Yes. Is heaven a person? Yes. I mean, they're like, what? I mean.

[Christian McCaffrey]

Well, when you think about. When you think about the consummation of the kingdom, the not yet part, when I try to imagine this, it blows my mind that the whole earth will be the temple of God, the entire Earth will be the temple of God, and heaven will be the.

[Jason]

All of it.

[Christian McCaffrey]

But. But.

[Jason]

That's a. But.

[Christian McCaffrey]

The earth is going to be a. It's not going to happen. And then it's going to. It's not going to vaporize into a. A spiritual ethos. It's a physical. We're talking about a physical place. Yeah. And God's God will meet in a. Meet with us in a physical place, and there will be not anywhere that we can go.

[Jason]

And before. Yeah. And before you say that before, will you say what Zach's saying is just crazy? Because some people probably thinks that you make a statement like that. They're like, that's crazy. You see what Jesus has resurrected body was like. And it's tricky. He's like a flesh. I mean, a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see. I have. But he died to the flesh, which.

[Zach]

By the way, is why he was the firstborn over all creation. Something new.

[Jason]

Remember we read last time, Luke 24, about when he's like, they didn't. They were having trouble believing him out of joy and amazement. And he's like, you got some fish? Well, you have to have some. Some type of body, even though it's been glorified and it's important, imperishable. To eat and digest fish.

[Zach]

Same thing on road to Emmaus. Remember the two, they're walking along. What did he say? He stayed in there, dinner with them, then he vanished. So the stay and eat dinner part we would get, the vanishing part. That's new.

[Jason]

Yeah. So, Zach, I had the same. Show my notes where you went to Thessalonica and you. I did the same thing. I had a slightly different point I made. Because when you said he reasoned with them through the scriptures about Thessalonica. He did. It says, I wanted to read it because it says he reasoned with them in 17:2 from the Scriptures, explaining, proving that Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. But then when he got to Berea, well, the same thing comes up. It says in verse 11. Yeah, they were more noble because with great eagerness they examined the Scriptures every day. Every day to see if what Paul said was true. Well, so I went to John 5 and verse, you know, it's one of my favorite verses in the Bible 39 and 40, when Jesus is being persecuted and he's like, you're studying these scriptures diligently, which is the same language, which.

[Zach]

Was a positive for the Bereans.

[Jason]

Yeah. Here he's using it as a negative because you think that by them you possess eternal life. Which always gets me because we have so many phrases about the Bible and you hear people say, oh, you get, you know, you got to preach the whole Bible, not part. All these little witty sayings, you know, about COVID to cover, you know, And I usually say, well, what about that part where three the Job's three friends were just spewing heresy and God said.

[Zach]

At the end, everything they said was stupid.

[Jason]

Yeah. For about 20 chapters. Well, if you bumble over there and start quoting that as Bible or for truth today. Yeah. God said, don't listen to them. That was all just absolutely false.

[Zach]

What about some of Solomon's depression journal in Ecclesiastes?

[Jason]

Exactly. Point being what Jesus said in 40, the end of 39 of John 5, these are the scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. And so point being, to Zach's point about the temple, he then says, let me tell you about this Unknown God in 1724. And he's like, he is Lord of heaven and earth, and he does not live in temples built by hands. Well, here's Jesus in John 5 saying, you're studying these scriptures, trying to justify whatever eternal life they're about me. Well, the temple in John 2, three chapters earlier, he makes this comment about destroying the temple. And they're like, what? They're looking at a physical temple where to Zach's point, Jesus and his followers continually went to where people would go to meet God. And he makes that famous line, I am the temple.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

I am the place where people meet. Which is our point.

[Christian McCaffrey]

So you guys probably know this already, but our American healthcare system is an absolute mess.

[Zach]

Well, I noticed it every time that, you know, the bills come due, the insurance, and how bad, how much they won't pay for.

[Christian McCaffrey]

If you're like me and you realize that the traditional health insurance is too expensive, it's too confusing, it's just a headache, and you want to ditch it, I would highly recommend another option for you called Christian Healthcare Ministries. It's half the cost. With chm, you really do have a money saver. And it's a money saver I think we can all get behind. And here, here's the thing about chm. First and foremost, they are a ministry, which means that believers across the country, they chip in each month to help each other with their eligible medical bills. It's not just financial help you're getting either. It's also you get spiritual support and prayers from a lot of other believers around the country. And because CHM isn't insurance, you're not restricted to just a few doctors and hospitals. You choose the ones that you trust with no middleman saying otherwise. You get to choose your own pathway. To date, listen to this. They've shared over $12 billion in medical bills. So this is like, this isn't like chump change here. This is. This is a real solution. To me, it's a win win because you get to save money and stay true to your faith and stop paying into a broken system. And it is a broken system. So ditch your traditional health insurance and join CHM today by visiting chministries.org unashamed that chministries.org unashaMed chministries.org unashAmed.

[Zach]

And.

[Christian McCaffrey]

And I think where that we. Jason and I've been having a sidebar conversation that I won't get too deep into because that. Could you tell me the rabbit.

[Jason]

But yeah, but you can give them a thumbnail. But don't. Because we, we spent a lot of time talking about that, but I think.

[Christian McCaffrey]

That we have to be careful with, with this phrase that, that when we use it, because you got to be careful what you mean by it. When we talk about the corruption of the flesh. The flesh in and of itself is not inherently bad. If it was then Jesus incarnated into something inherently bad.

[Jason]

You're right. And let me throw in another verse. And he referred to his resurrected body. In Luke 24. He said, look at my hands and feet. A ghost does not have flesh. It's the same word as John 1:14. And the same word that he says, what is that? Where it says flesh, spirit. He makes that analogy. What's the verse I'm looking for? Where it says, the flesh is weak, but the spirit is. Or whatever that is.

[Christian McCaffrey]

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak?

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Zach]

When they're having the prayer and they're going to sleep, that's when he says.

[Jason]

Well, even when he says in John 3, when he says flesh gives birth to flesh, but the spirit. Well, people read that and they're like, oh, well, flesh is bad. Well, he didn't say that. No, he just.

[Christian McCaffrey]

I mean, Augustine would say it like that. When Paul uses. I think he's right. When Paul uses the term flesh, he's not speaking about the physical body, but the corrupted will. But if you read that as like the physical, actual DNA and flesh is evil, well, that's a form of Gnosticism, right? I mean, that's what. Isn't that the heresy of Gnosticism?

[Jason]

Remind us what Gnosticism is. Because I. Every time. You'll tell me every time, but I quickly rent it.

[Christian McCaffrey]

So, yeah, it's essentially that. That ancient heresy that's addressed in Scripture where that the spirit is good and then the flesh is inherently evil. And so it's a separation of the spirit and the body or of the physical world. But the. The Christian teaching is not that we're trying to escape the corrupted evilness of the physical reality and move into the spiritual, you know, transcendent. You know, it's actually the. The Christian teaching is that God made the earth, and he said it is good. He made human flesh, and he said it's very good. So it's not. When Paul speaks of the flesh, he's talking about the corrupted will, not the actual human flesh of our bodies. The physical world is good because Christ was pleased. The fullness of God was pleased to dwell in a body. We have to remember that because that's the hope of the new creation. Right.

[Zach]

If you don't get that right, Zach, you'll miss the power of the resurrection because you go to First Corinthians 15, and you'll see that people will say, well, yeah, that's not talking about your physical body, that's talking about your spiritual body. And you're like, well, wait a minute.

[Jason]

Because it says that, right? It says. It's what I think it's a natural body, it's raised a spiritual body, but it's still flesh.

[Zach]

I mean, that's the part.

[Jason]

That's why Jesus is eating that fish.

[Zach]

Exactly.

[Jason]

And fish is.

[Christian McCaffrey]

Fish is. The whole thing hinges on fish.

[Jason]

I think about it, the word you're looking for, though, it's a glorified body capable since Jesus goes to the right hand of God and makes the presence of God available for humans. Because then you explain all those verses that says, well, a man can't look at God, he'll die. Remember that in the Old Testament, you know, and the crack of the rock, the cleft of the rock. And he's like, barely saw, saw it, saw the side. And even in the New Testament where it says God lives in unapproachable light. What's it talking about? Well, people make that a spiritual thing, but I think it. You literally would be radiated somehow another.

[Christian McCaffrey]

But well, you know, it's funny as, as Romans, Paul in Romans actually gives us a really good understanding of all this when he talks about the creation itself and he, he speaks of what now we know is called the law of entropy, which is the, the second law of thermodynamics, that things decay over time. You put an apple on a shelf and it just, over time, it just decays and rots. Our bodies, they're decaying. Everything is breaking down. The whole universe is breaking down. It is a law of the universe. And Paul addresses it in Romans 8 when he says the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay. So the creation will survive, the creation will thrive. The creation, the physical creation will be a physical creation forever. But it will operate under a new law of physics. One being, it will not be bound by the laws of thermodynamics, which is actually incredible to think about that God will reshift our understanding of physics and we and the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay. Which means, which means it won't decay over time. It won't tear up over time. I think it probably the opposite is going to happen. That is that it's going to grow and flourish. And we're going to see that garden, that cultivation, that having dominion, and go take the garden expanded across the the world. I think the Lord's going to say, go take the garden and expand it across the universe. I mean, just keep on. This thing's never going to end. We're just going to Keep on expanding out the garden into an ever expanding universe.

[Zach]

It shows you how strong this thing still holds on after all these thousands of years. Because how many times have you been on a funeral where the guy says, now, don't you know this casket, they're not here anymore. This isn't them. And I'm always sitting there thinking, no, that's. That's still them. It's still the body.

[Christian McCaffrey]

Yeah.

[Zach]

You know, say it's the. But it's that mindset where you just want to shift out and say, that body doesn't mean anything. You know, wait a minute. I mean, somebody told me that at. When. At dad's funeral, they were like, you know, he's not. That's not him. He's not here anymore. I said, no, that's him. Yeah, that's part of it. And that part will be resurrected, and it's gonna be amazing.

[Christian McCaffrey]

That's a good. That's a really good point. Every. Every funeral I go to, they say that.

[Zach]

How many times have you heard that said?

[Jason]

Oh, it's just.

[Zach]

It hangs on. It's that. That flesh is bad. It's got to get back.

[Jason]

Well, and I want to give. I. I know, because we've all had these discussions with people who believe that, and they. One of the verses they use is Romans 8. 8, which says, now if you just read this verse on its own and.

[Zach]

Not in the context of Romans 8 total.

[Jason]

Well, and I think in the context of what we're talking about in John 14, I mean, look, I. I think our mind has trouble grasping when Jesus said, look, I'm going to be with you and in you. Yeah, because I'm leaving. I realize that's a difficult thing to wrap your head around. All right, I'm leaving. Don't panic because I'm going to be in trouble. And in you. Well, most people think, well, that must going to come way later. But he's like, no, I'm going to be with you and in you, because I'm going to send you my spirit. When was the spirit poured out?

[Zach]

Acts 1.

[Jason]

Yeah, Acts chapter 1 and 2. And then all these passages we're reading in Acts 17 and all these churches, and he's going to the temple. Well, the spirit's involved. It's the theme. And he's setting that up here in John 14.

[Zach]

By the way, it was the same spirit who carried men along through prophecy. The spirit's been here the whole time.

[Jason]

Yeah. Right. So I want to read this. Romans 8. 8. Because on its own, it seems to Say, oh, well, yeah, flesh is bad, but it, all of it. Any context?

[Zach]

So Zach, you have a lot of kids and your last one that you have was, was one that you adopted. Would you say that? I mean, all your kids are gifts from God, but Ruth is a special gift. Is that not true?

[Christian McCaffrey]

She's my favorite. I'll just say it.

[Zach]

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[Jason]

Life.

[Zach]

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[Jason]

Those controlled by the flesh are in the realm of the flesh. Some, some translation.

[Zach]

Niv says sinful nature.

[Jason]

But it's the same word for the flesh.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Cannot please God. Yeah. So they're like, see, you're in the flesh. It's impossible. You can't. That's the conclusion. It's like flesh bad. Can't. So you got to get away from that. But hang on here. So if you read, I don't know whether to go backwards or forwards. Let's go forwards. So it says, you, however, are controlled not by the flesh, by the spirit. What are we talking about, controlled? Well then he expands on what that means. So you're in the realm. How are you controlled by the flesh? Watch what this says. So it says, you, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the spirit. This same spirit he's promising to give you in John 14.

[Zach]

Correct.

[Jason]

If the spirit of God, if, if the spirit of God lives in you and if anyone does not have the spirit Of Christ? Well, he doesn't belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you. Well, I just read. Well, how is Christ getting into me? He just said it in John 14. I'm going to go to the Father, I'm going to send my Spirit. And he said, look, if you love me and trust me, me and the Father will come to you and make you our home. How? Through his Spirit. They're all tied together. Spirit, Father, Son. But if Christ is in you, here's the key phrase. Your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. So when you throw in another verse, like, where's the one in Galatians, where it says. Yeah, Galatians 5, the Acts, verse 19. It's the same concept. The acts of the flesh are obvious. And you have all these sins.

[Zach]

List them.

[Jason]

Yeah, but then he gets 22, look. But the fruit of the Spirit, and there's love. But watch what he says in verse 24. Those who belong to Christ Jesus, same word, belong, have crucified the flesh. That's why your body's dead.

[Zach]

Yep.

[Jason]

With its passions and desires. And so when you go back to Romans 8, you see all this? Those who are governed by the flesh, those who live according to the flesh. Well, he says that earlier. That's why I said I didn't know whether to go backwards or forward. Well, yeah, if you're living by the flesh, what are you going to do? Well, whatever feels good to the flesh. You're going to go out and do it. The desires and the passions and the. But what I want to say is, Even in Galatians 6, listen to this. After he says that about you've crucified the flesh, in Galatians 6, verse 14, it says, May I never boast in the cross of the Lord. May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus. Now watch this little phrase through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world, it makes me think of that first, John 5, what is that? For everyone born of God has overcome the world. Who is it that over comes the world? You say, what's. What's your point? I think in John 14, in this introduction of the Spirit. Look, he's going Back to John 3 with the Conversation with Nicodemus about this battle of the flesh versus the Spirit. He's like, I'm gonna. There's a baptism of the Holy Spirit that's gonna happen.

[Christian McCaffrey]

Well, because the battle between the two is. Here's the battle. It's not that the body is inherently evil. In fact, what does he say in Romans 8:11? He says that, that the spirit will actually give life to your mortal body. So your spirits, your body's. Your body's dead because of sin. But through the spirit, you. He will make. He will give life to your mortal body. So clearly the body's not evil or he wouldn't give life to it. So then, so how does that, how do you understand that? I understand this to be that the problem with the flesh is not the inherently the flesh. It's what is your intention with the flesh. And if your intention with the flesh is to dine alone without communion with God, then you've missed the point of the body. You've missed the whole purpose of the body. As Paul instructs in First Corinthians, chapter 6, that the body is not meant for things like sexual immorality. It's actually meant for the Lord, the Lord for the body. And God who raised the Lord will also raise us up by his power. And he says there, don't. He says, don't flee from sexual sin. Flee from sexual immorality for all sins. Every other sin a person commits is outside his body. But the sexually immoral person, this is his argument, he sins against his own body. So the body's not clearly bad. It's how this person is particularly using their body. Or don't you know, here's his rationality, that your body is your body. Your human body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you. This is John 14. This is it. Whom you have from God. You're not your own. You're bought on the price of glorify God with your body.

[Zach]

Well, you've also swerved into the flawed argument of the Greeks at the very beginning, because what they were really struggling with, they were just saying, well, you know, the body does what the body does and the mind does what the mind. They were splitting it up like that. What they didn't understand was in missing the Holy Spirit's role in this is that their spirit and soul were the corrupted part anyway. The body was only following in reaction what the spirit wants to do. So they even missed out on the principal argument of their own makeup.

[Christian McCaffrey]

And you know what's funny about that? There's a ton of research coming out right now. This is so interesting to me. And I, I use this phrase at dinner the other night with some people, they actually said there's a book with this title. Never read the book, don't anything about it not endorsing It. But I thought. But I just said to. I just said, your body keeps the score. That's what I said, your body keeps score. And you think about like how. And Al, you've done enough pastoral, pastoral ministry where how many times you sat with people who have been sexually abused, who have gone through issues in their life, like, the body kept a score. You think, man, your body does remember there's a connection. The body and the. And the. And the soul are not as if you're a human. That that is what it means to be human.

[Zach]

Right. Which is why the Holy Spirit came to me.

[Jason]

I'm pushing back a little bit. I'm agreeing with that, what everybody said. But I'm giving a. Not pushing back. I'm giving another thought. So like you take. I found this verse first, Thessalonians 5, 24, where it says, Or, 23, may your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. I simply want to make a small little thought here. You can't carve those three things up and you're like, okay, God gave me three points to have ready when he comes back. Because I wanted to find this verse because it's like, have those three things. No, that's you, that's you. That's one.

[Zach]

Which is my point of what they didn't understand that you were made up of three components. My point is.

[Jason]

Well, you're made up of three components, kind of like God, but he's one.

[Zach]

But they. Right, but they were dividing that out in their own minds, which was actually their own spirit. Yeah, I see what I'm saying.

[Jason]

I see what you're saying.

[Zach]

So that was the flawed part of the argument, is they didn't know this. And if they had understood what we know now from scripture, they would understand that you are one and whole. You can't just say, my spirit's good, my body bad.

[Jason]

Oh, exactly. They did separate it.

[Zach]

They did the thing you're saying.

[Jason]

I was making sure that's what we were saying. It's like when he says the Shema or whatever, where he's like, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. You're like, okay, I got four things. I'm doing pretty good on this one. Yeah, but I think if you try to go down, you're over analyzing his point, which is just the makeup of us. But look, I think we do the same thing in reverse to Jesus death. Some people only focus on the forgiveness of sins. Well, that's a travesty yes, we love that. Like the John 12 passage that says this hour had came and you heard this voice. Well then he says, now judgment has come on the world. And so people say, yep. See that? Well, if you read 2 Corinthians 5, it says that God through Jesus death was reconciling the world to himself. There was a lot of things that were accomplished from the true God is my point. Redemption, deliverance, forgiveness, reconciliation. Look, judgment. How? There's more facets to it than just saying well, that's it. Here's one aspect of well, and in.

[Zach]

Essence, this entire podcast has been a preview what we're going to be talking about in 14, 15, 16 because I love that you brought up the verse in 1 Thessalonians. What is the way that your spirit, soul and body all one are kept blameless only through the Holy Spirit that indwells you? I mean it's the only thing that can possibly be the game changer for us is to have God in us. That's the whole point. That's why it's called the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

[Jason]

Which is why I asked how far is God? Because look, if you think he's a long way away, you've missed something about the Holy Spirit. No doubt that was my whole point.

[Christian McCaffrey]

Yeah, he's not.

[Jason]

I mean, granted there's different aspects. Creation. Yes. You see God pretty close to you. And God reigning in feeding all the living creatures and all the thing that's going on, not to mention all the kings of the earth. Yeah, that he's loing over. But he's given you his spirit. There's never going to be a way to get closer. I agree than that.

[Zach]

All right, Maddie, we're out of time. How about that? Did Were you lonely without us in the studio? One podcast later.

[Jason]

Well, see Al, look now Al, you.

[Zach]

Unburdened yourself and man, did that lead to quite the Bible study.

[Jason]

Look, that was a good one. You do realize that if you have the Holy Holy Spirit of God. Yeah.

[Zach]

You're never alone.

[Jason]

I like so when you say were you lonely? That was a 49 minute answer. I had the Holy Spirit the whole time.

[Zach]

So technically I love it when it all comes back together. We'll see you next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast and don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.