Ep 1169 | The Wild Childhood Rivalries That Inspired ‘Duck Dynasty’ & Who Miss Kay Loves the Most

Summary

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Unashamed with the Robertson Family — Episode 1169

“The Wild Childhood Rivalries That Inspired ‘Duck Dynasty’ & Who Miss Kay Loves the Most”

Date: September 19, 2025
Hosts: Allen, Zach, Jace, Christian
Featured Theme: Family Rivalries, Biblical Lessons from Genesis, and Who's Really the "Favorite"

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Episode Overview

In this lively and heartfelt episode, the Robertson family gathers to discuss themes of sibling rivalry, favoritism, and family dynamics—both in their real lives growing up and in the biblical families featured in Genesis. Prompted by their ongoing “Unashamed Academy” Genesis study, the conversation delves into the stories of Jacob and Esau, paralleling the famous Duck Dynasty rivalries, and asks the perennial question: who’s the real favorite in a family? The episode also dives deep into the theological lessons of favoritism, generational patterns, and God’s redemptive purposes amidst human messiness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who’s the Favorite? The Robertson Family Weighs In

• Sibling Rivalry in the Robertsons: The hosts reminisce about classic family rivalries—especially between Willie and Jace—mirrored in Duck Dynasty storylines.
  • Allen: “In our family, with mom, especially...it was whoever's in the room is the favorite with Mom.” [00:47]
  • Jace: “I don't think my dad has a favorite...But then I was like, if I don't know who the favorite is, does that mean it's not you? Is me or is not me?” [02:29]
• Who Miss Kay Loves Most: Each family member shares tongue-in-cheek admissions and jabs, often admitting to being someone’s “favorite”—at least “in the room.”
• Adoption and Real-Life Favorites: Zach talks candidly about how his adopted daughter Ruth holds a special, even “favorite,” place in his heart, with honesty about the journey of adoption.
  • Zach: “Now that I've adopted Ruth, I actually love her more than the rest of my kids, so she's actually my favorite by far.” [05:00]

2. Sibling Rivalries as Biblical and Personal Narrative

• Genesis Parallels: The episode centers theological commentary on the Genesis accounts of sibling rivalries (Isaac/Ishmael, Jacob/Esau), connecting them to real-life family experiences.
  • Allen: “The show is an adult version of our childhood…all the things and exploits that we did to one another and to our cousins who would come and visit.” [06:16]
• Rivalries Begin with Parents: The hosts reflect that in Scripture (and in life), parental favoritism often sets the stage for family drama.
  • Allen: “These rivalries seem to be birthed out more from the parents than anything else.” [09:26]
  • Jace: “They don't learn. They just repeat...I think with Christ and with God...there are no favorites.” [10:22]

3. Theological Deep Dive: God’s Purposes, Favoritism, and the Gospel

• God Shows No Favoritism: Drawing from both Peter’s proclamation (Acts 10:34) and other passages, the hosts contrast God’s impartiality with human favoritism.
  • Christian (quoting Acts 10:34): “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism.” [12:07]
• Chosen Roles vs. Favorites: Jace and Zach unpack how God’s specific choices in the biblical story aren’t about personal favoritism, but about assigning unique roles and displaying grace across generations.
  • Jace: “They're saying...‘God is giving me a purpose’...when actually God's not choosing them as, like, they're better.” [11:19]
• Nations over Individuals: Zach clarifies Paul’s theology in Romans 9 and Genesis 25—God’s choice of Jacob is about nations (Israel vs. Edom) and the unfolding plan for all people.
  • Zach: “Clearly, God is expanding the understanding of Jacob and Esau to beyond just individual people. He's talking about two different actual nations and people groups.” [15:04]

4. Interpreting the Jacob & Esau Story: Transaction, Deception, and Forgiveness

• Birthright and Red Stew: The hosts break down the details of the infamous birthright-for-stew exchange, adding humor and literal translations ("red, red stuff").
  • Jace: “It was just like a straightforward transaction...but it doesn't really seem like Esau thought in that moment he was really giving away the birthright.” [19:28]
  • Zach: “That is a sin...in that particular cultural framework, to sell your inheritance in this way.” [31:43]
• Deception Begets Deception: Allen and Zach reflect on the recurring pattern: deceivers ending up deceived, and generational cycles echoing throughout Scripture and their own family.
  • Allen: “When that becomes your makeup and you're running with deceitful people, that ultimately you're going to get deceived.” [25:30]
• Forgiveness on Meeting Again: The reconciliation between Jacob and Esau is a moment of profound forgiveness, echoed in God’s redemptive love for humanity.
  • Jace: “Jacob is seeing Esau as the emulating God in the sense of forgiveness...Esau took on the role of God to say, no, I forgive you and you can live.” [33:51]
  • Allen: “...he receives forgiveness. I think your point is right on top.” [34:49]

5. Meta-Narrative: God Elevates the Unexpected

• The group highlights God’s tendency to accomplish big things through unlikely, flawed people—not the “firstborn” or the obvious.
  • Zach: “It's never the one that you think that it's supposed to be...it wasn't Saul. It was a little shepherd boy named David...” [27:46]
• Restlessness and Name Change: They draw personal reflections on wrestling with God, submitting to Him, and the redemptive impact of a new name or identity in Christ.
  • Allen: “I do like the idea of the name change, which was really big. And because, in essence, we all go through that, right?...That’s when the right name is added.” [44:39]
  • Jace: “Israel being like, those who struggle with God...That doubt and that struggle is part of your faith and your relationship.” [47:36]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Allen: “The only one that knows he's not the favorite is Jace, because he's nobody's favorite. Except, I guess, Missy.” [01:51]
• Zach: “Now that I've adopted Ruth, I actually love her more than the rest of my kids, so she's actually my favorite by far.” [05:00]
• Allen: “In our family, with mom, especially...it was whoever's in the room is the favorite with Mom.” [00:47]
• Jace: “Jacob is seeing Esau as the emulating God in the sense of forgiveness...no, I forgive you and you can live.” [33:51]
• Christian: “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism.” [12:07]
• Zach: “Clearly, God is expanding the understanding of Jacob and Esau to beyond just individual people. He’s talking about two different actual nations and people groups.” [15:04]
• Allen: “Deceivers typically always get deceived at some point...when someone is trying to sell you stuff big time and you kind of feel that oily feeling...they’re living by deception.” [25:30]
• Jace: “[Campers] thought the counselors were perfect...we can doubt, but then also come back to God. And I think that’s like this idea here...doubt and struggle are part of your faith and your relationship.” [47:36]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:31 — Opening banter on favorites in the family
• 04:44 — Zach on adopting Ruth: sharing his heart on favorites
• 06:47 — Willie and Jace’s Duck Dynasty rivalry mirrors Jacob & Esau
• 09:26 — Parental favoritism in Genesis and the Robertsons
• 12:07 — “God shows no favoritism:” Acts 10 and theological reflections
• 15:04 — Jacob & Esau as nations, not just individuals
• 19:28 — The birthright for “red, red stuff” breakdown
• 25:30 — The pattern of deception (Robertson and biblical families)
• 33:51 — Jacob seeing Esau’s face as “one might see God’s face”
• 44:39 — The spiritual significance of name changes
• 47:36 — Personal struggles and the importance of testimony

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Tone and Style

The Robertson family’s conversation is playful, humorous, vulnerable, and biblically insightful—woven with family stories, friendly teasing, and theological depth, all in their distinct Louisiana drawl and with characteristic warmth.

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Takeaway Lessons

• Rivalries and favoritism are as ancient as humanity but are no match for God’s redeeming purposes—or for genuine forgiveness in families.
• God’s choices confound human expectations: He routinely lifts up the “wrong” person by human standards—making room for grace and redemption.
• Wrestling with God, struggling through doubt and deception, and ultimately submitting to Him is a universal pathway to transformation—one shared by Jacob, Esau, and the Robertsons.
• “Favoritism” in God’s family means everyone has a place, and all are welcome at the table.

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Next Up: The Joseph narrative—lasting half of Genesis and connecting the patriarchs, family rivalry, and God’s sovereign plan.

To join the Robertson’s Genesis study:
Sign up free at unashamedforhillsdale.com

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“I love how God gives us a glimpse and a vision of something greater than ourselves...when Jacob exposed his neck to his brother, that could have been a neck of death. Instead, it was a kiss of forgiveness. And that's exactly what we can all expect from God, is the beauty of that moment.”
— Allen [39:48]

Transcript

[Allen]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Zach]

Well, we are back. We did this every Friday. It's called Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. We're getting into the book of Genesis. This time, you guys can sign up for free. All you got to do is go to unashamedforhillsdale.com. this week, we're talking about Jacob and Esau. Two brothers. One was the favorite. One was. Well, I guess they both were favorite of a parent. Do y' all have favorites, by the way?

[Christian]

I just have one sibling, so.

[Zach]

So were you the favorite?

[Christian]

Oh, was I the favorite? I think we're. We. It was reiterated very often that we were both equal.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Allen]

But now tell us the truth.

[Christian]

I think I'm the favorite.

[Zach]

You think you are?

[Christian]

I think so.

[Zach]

Al, what about you?

[Allen]

Well, you know. You know, y'. All, in my case, our whole family's been on television for years, so it's kind of out there. But in our family, with mom, especially, because it is interesting, because our storyline today is about the moms in terms the, you know, the favorites. But it. In our case, it was whoever's in the room is the favorite with Mom. Like, if you're there, of course you're the favorite.

[Zach]

She told me I was. I went and saw her because she was sick recently, and I saw her.

[Allen]

And she said, you're my favorite nephew.

[Zach]

You're my favorite nephew.

[Allen]

Yeah. Said the same thing to John Gimber right before.

[Zach]

I think the person said, is this. Oh, this is John. She's like, oh, Zach. Zach's my favorite.

[Jace]

So that was the Jacob Esau situation.

[Allen]

Exactly, exactly. So, personally, I know I'm the favorite. Like, deep down, I'm like you, because I'm the most dependable. You know, I'm there. I come up with the. The most. The brightest and best ideas. But, you know, I let the others bask in their favoritism that they think they have. Of course, the only one that knows he's not the favorite is Jace, because he's nobody's favorite. Yeah. Except, I guess, Missy.

[Zach]

He's everybody's favorite villain.

[Allen]

Exactly. He's the villain. You know, it's like a Bond movie. What's a Bond movie without a villain? Right. We talked about that on the last podcast, so. I know. But I let Jeff take the mantle because he's the youngest.

[Zach]

I feel like it's Jeff. I mean, just from the outside looking at.

[Jace]

What do you think? From the outside looking in for a shirt, I mean, that seems he's the.

[Allen]

Most coddled, for sure. Because he's the youngest.

[Jace]

That is.

[Allen]

I mean, you're an oldest. Yeah. So we all know. Oldest. Your oldest.

[Zach]

I'm middle child.

[Allen]

Oh, that's right. No wonder you have a syndrome. Yeah, that explains a lot about Zach's issues.

[Zach]

Who's a favorite of Willie and Corey's kids?

[Allen]

Yeah. This is interesting.

[Jace]

You know, I was trying to think of it, and truly, I don't think my dad has a favorite or they have a favorite. But then I was like, if I don't know who the favorite is, does that mean it's not you? Is is me or is not me? Yeah.

[Zach]

Yeah. That's pretty cool.

[Jace]

After your.

[Zach]

After we had Willie's 50th birthday party where we did a roast and they roasted a big pig and a bunch. I say a bunch. Willie's closest.

[Allen]

Are you talking about me?

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Allen]

Huh? Are you referring to me? Because I felt like a roasted pig after Willie's roasting of me because I was back at my full weight back then.

[Zach]

So I was actually surprised you didn't go harder on him than you did.

[Allen]

I thought I was very nice, but he was so hard on me that poor Bella steps up to the microphone and says, uncle Allen, we love you. She had to provide some balm on my scorch flesh.

[Zach]

That the only two people. Of all the people out there that really roasted Willie or you and me, you went for the jugular. I was like, whoa, he's going deep.

[Jace]

I was going. I went all out on that.

[Zach]

Yeah, you did.

[Jace]

I don't know if that elevated or. Or less.

[Zach]

I don't know.

[Jace]

I don't know. He appreciates that, though.

[Zach]

He liked it.

[Jace]

He likes a good roast.

[Zach]

Well, he told me later, he said, man, thank y' all for, like, coming after me. I wanted more. And the other. Some of the other guys didn't.

[Allen]

I only made fun of his, like, hair dudes. Through the years, I was very.

[Zach]

I tried to attack neutral character. His just go, let's go all in.

[Jace]

Score.

[Zach]

Stir his way, cuz you. I think one of my lines is Willie's gained and lost, you know, 12.

[Allen]

36 pounds, but it's actually the same 50 pounds. Just 25 times.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Allen]

Which I can relate to that. So. Yeah, the best.

[Christian]

Come. He's not a fun person to try to get in because he'll always. He'll always take it the step further. So.

[Allen]

Yeah, he'll never stop. So who's the favorite in yours? You never said.

[Zach]

I'm not sure who. The favorite of my parents. You know, I don't I'm not really sure that's it. I would probably say I was my mom's favorite, and then probably Melissa is my dad's favorite because she takes, like, does everything for him. You know what I mean? In my family, though, with my kids, I tell my kids, well, when we adopted Ruth, I was super nervous about adoption because I thought, can I really love an adopted child like my own? I struggle with that. I mean, Jill was called to adopt a long time before. God put that on my heart. And I tell my kids now. Actually, the truth is, now that I've adopted Ruth, I actually love her more than the rest of my kids, so she's actually my favorite by far.

[Allen]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And I tell my kids she's the chosen one, so. Well, and that's kind of a joke. I say that tongue in cheeks. But I mean, like I said, I set that joke up worthily. Normally I set it up. It's like. And I'm here to tell you that I don't only love her as much as I love Mike. I love her more. Y' all didn't laugh, so I didn't deliver the joke well.

[Allen]

I was laughing on the inside.

[Zach]

But Ruth's my favorite.

[Allen]

She's the least destructive, at least from my perspective. Your boys, you know, we had favorite Fred.

[Zach]

It was favorite Fred. We called him favorite Fred for a while, so I think. But now it's. I mean, Ruth runs the. Runs the show rules the roost. But sibling rivalry is a real deal. I mean, I think we've all experienced that in our life.

[Allen]

Well, that's why in our family, it's interesting because when you watch the show, it's. It's very evident that Willie and Jace had the biggest rivalry out of the four brothers. They had the biggest rivalry because they were the closest in age. And they're both middle children, which middle children have issues. And, you know, I mean, parents accompany.

[Zach]

It's because a middle child doesn't get any of the attention. So you're left.

[Allen]

Well, you don't get that little youthful favoritism, and you don't get the responsibility of the eldest. You're just somewhere in the middle.

[Zach]

Survivors.

[Allen]

Exactly.

[Zach]

Grit, they call it Grit.

[Allen]

Exactly. So those two were like that in our family. So they obviously had the biggest rivalries. But when you were watching the show, you actually. A lot of the stories that are told there were stories that included. It may have been me and Willie in real life that we were retelling through Jason, Willie's rivalry, which made it really an interesting Show. And the stuff was funny because it really was all about our childhood. You know, the show is an adult version of our childhood. That's what it is. And all the things and exploits that we did to one another and to our cousins who would come and visit.

[Zach]

Oh, you guys were ruthless.

[Allen]

Oh, yeah.

[Zach]

Your dad was the worst. I mean, he still is ruthless. But I have no resentments that.

[Allen]

Well, you're in my favor, cousin. Now, Zach. I'm just saying, because, you know, you come up with ways to enrich my life in many, many ways. So I'm just saying that officially, many.

[Jace]

Ways, spiritually, I mean, you enrich me.

[Allen]

In many, many ways.

[Zach]

Everything's transactional, guys. Wow. Okay, so let me recover from that a little bit.

[Jace]

And that leads right into Jacob and East.

[Zach]

It really does. I mean, you. It was hilarious. He got the last podcast. He kept saying, you're referencing our commentary, which, by the way, we all have our commentaries now. We have the five books of Moses, and then we also have just the Genesis commentary here. This is the ones that Dr. Jackson uses in the course that we're in right now.

[Allen]

Yeah. Robert Alter is.

[Zach]

So if you are going in deep with us, and you've already signed up for unashamed for hillstell.com, you can get these commentaries as well, if you really want to go deep with us, which I would recommend. I think if you can sit in the content and incubate in it. It just has a way of kind of like, I don't know, for me, it's been great just to sit in it and then we can process together. But you were reading out of the commentary, but you kept saying, instead of.

[Allen]

Ishmael, you kept referring to Esau, because they're so similar.

[Jace]

So similar.

[Christian]

Esau and Isaac.

[Zach]

Yeah, Esau and Isaac. And even when you corrected you, you still said it, but I thought it was funny because it's like. But there is this pattern that you see this pattern kind of repeated over and over and over again of sibling rivalry. So we've already talked about the birth of Isaac. Well, Ishmael first, because Ishmael was kind of like the circumventing of the promise. We're going to help you accomplish this. God coming from the perspective of Abraham and Sarah. And God's like, no, that's actually not how this is going to work. And so then Isaac comes up on the scene. But there is that tension there. There's that rivalry there, where now we've found out which one the actual promise is going to go through. It's going to go through Isaac. Then we enter into Genesis 22, which we did last time, which is lecture four, and we're like, oh, now we're going to kill this guy. We're going to have you kill the one that the promise is going to come through. Well, then God provides a substitution area, a sacrifice atonement, foreshadowing the substitution atonement that we received through Jesus. So now we know that Isaac's the guy. It's coming through Isaac. The offspring are coming. And then the two offspring that arrived through Isaac are Jacob and Esau. And so that's where our story.

[Allen]

Didn't you think. Didn't you find it interesting that these rivalries seem to be birthed out more from the parents than Anything else, which Dr. Jackson mentions, that it starts out, in other words, with the rivalry between Sarah and Hagar that happens as a result of kind of circumventing the plan of God. But then it goes right into this, too, you know, Then all of a sudden we've got, you know, Rebecca, her favorite is Jacob, you know, and then Isaac, you know, is favoring Esau, so that the parents are making these decisions. And then when we go to the next level, which we'll get into in the next podcast, you see that now times four, because you got four different moms with 12 different sons. And these. This idea of these rivalries really start. To me, it's almost like a generational thing that seems to be going forward, and then it just. It picks up and it becomes almost warlike, you know, and they.

[Jace]

And they don't learn. Like Jacob emulates his father Isaac, Isaac emulates Abraham, and they keep having the same problems generation after generation. They're not. They. They don't learn. They just repeat. Which I think is. There's a nuance here. I think with Christ and with God. I was thinking about while listening to the video and reading the commentary is it reads in the New Testament, I can't remember the verse, but there are no favorites. Talks about Jesus saying, with God, there's no favorites, that all are equal.

[Zach]

There's no favoritism.

[Jace]

There's no favoritism. All are equal.

[Allen]

I think Peter said that. Yeah.

[Jace]

And I think what is happening early on with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, all of them is that they are thinking that the roles that God is giving them equates to favoritism when it doesn't.

[Allen]

Right.

[Jace]

They're saying, oh, God is giving me a purpose here or a specific role. That means I am his favorite, when actually God's not Choosing them as, like, they're better because God's also blessing Ishmael. He's also blessing Esau. He's also blessing everyone else around them in this thing. It's not God saying, like, okay, I'm choosing him because he's better than this one or that one. It's God saying, I'm giving you a specific role in history and in the story.

[Zach]

I mean, there's a lot of controversy in what you just said. I would agree with you, by the way, though, but there is a lot of controversy in that that I want to unpack in a second.

[Allen]

Yeah. What was that verse? Yeah.

[Christian]

Because you were In, I think, first or second Peter. I was in Acts 10. This is right after Peter and Cornelius. So Acts 10:34 says. Then Peter replied, I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism.

[Allen]

Yeah.

[Christian]

This is after the dream. I was in Acts 10, Peter and Cornelius. This is Acts 10:34. It says. Then Peter replied, I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism. And then this is right after the dream.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Christian]

And then Peter rises up with the.

[Allen]

So, yeah, Peter did say it, and it was in the moment that the first Gentiles were ushered into the kingdom.

[Zach]

Well, think about what had just happened. Or around this time period is a sheet.

[Allen]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Comes down from heaven, and you have all the unclean animals on the sheet. And what does he say? Don't call anything unclean that I've called clean.

[Allen]

Yeah.

[Zach]

It's not about catfish and. And pigs. What it's about is Jew and gentile. And so what I think this is to the point you made. This is where the controversy emerges. And I fully believe that we have to read this story of Jacob and Esau through the lens of a word called eschatology. We have to read this through. What is God ultimately accomplishing in this story? Because this whole idea of, why is Abraham even on the scene? Why do we even need Israel? I mean, Israel didn't happen and didn't come into play until Genesis 12. This is right after the Tower of Babel. So God creates. Got to go back to that. We talked about it in the previous episode. But in Genesis 11, God creates nations for the very first time. So we have to understand this whole story in the context of the fall. Because if you try to understand this without that context, then you get into these weird things about favoritism and. Well, he clearly has a favorite. I mean, he's choosing a bloodline. He's choosing. I mean, Jacob got some blessing that Esau didn't get. So that's there. Then you get to like Romans 9, which clearly says, jacob, I loved Esau, I've hated. Actually quotes Romans 9, actually quotes the text today, our anchor text, which is Genesis 25. I think if we're viewing, like, Romans 9 as an argument, for example, if you're viewing that through the lens of God arbitrarily chose the person of Jacob over the person of Esau, I think that you've missed the text. I don't think he's talking about that at all. I think he's talking about two nations here. And here's why. Because he actually quotes in Romans 9, he says, the older. Just as it is written, the older will serve the younger. That was Paul's kind of argument of why he's making this case in Romans 9, which I think he's clearly talking about Gentiles being grafted into the faith of Israel. But if you. Look, let me read the text here, because this is the birth of the rivalry of Jacob and Esau. And what you're going to see is it actually happens in the womb before the twins were born. Had it done anything good or bad?

[Allen]

Which is interesting because I had said before that a lot of the rivalry is coming from the parents, but it is interesting in this case, it actually started even before.

[Zach]

Yeah, this one started in the womb. And I think what we'll see in this, though, this is not necessarily. I think that Jacob and Esau, the individuals, serve as a prototype for two different nations. One of those nations is going to be called Israel, and the other one of those nations is going to be called Edom, the Edomites. So the verse says this. So the Lord says to Rebecca, the children struggled within her, and she said, if it is thus, then why is this happening to me? She went to inquire of the Lord, and this is what the Lord says to her. Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided. Clearly, God is expanding the understanding of Jacob and Esau to beyond just individual people. He's talking about two different actual nations and people groups. Shall the one shall be stronger than the other, and the older shall serve the younger, so the older nation shall actually serve the younger.

[Christian]

He did say there was some ambiguity with that, though, didn't he? He said there was different. Like you could read it two different.

[Zach]

Ways in terms of the. In what way? Oh, yeah. Oh, of who was serving who? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I mean, he did say that. I don't know. If I didn't do a deep dive into that. So I thought that was an interesting point.

[Allen]

Yeah.

[Zach]

So in that, Ambi. But you certainly see ambiguity in how it plays out.

[Allen]

Well, at the end, to your point, Christian, at the end of the story, you know, you see just the way the opposite happened from what is said here in the fact that Jacob does bow down as the servant and says, your servant, Jacob, your servant. Remember when they have the big reunion at the very end of the story.

[Zach]

And Jacob's the younger and Jacob's the.

[Allen]

Younger, which is in the order. Right, exactly. But at the same time, not really, because he's representative of Israel, which is. So you see a little bit of both.

[Zach]

Well, Edom ends up serving Israel later on in kind of the whole story. And there's a whole reason why even that wasn't arbitrary. Like, they wanted to pass through their land and Eden and like, no, we're not letting you pass through. God gets angry. So there's even a reason beyond that. But it is interesting that you see the way it plays out is Jacob actually calls Esau Lord and serves him. He calls your servant your servant repeatedly.

[Christian]

And verse 23 is so interesting because Dr. Jackson didn't talk about this. But like some scholars, it's. And it's kind of like a. It's a debate. But like, some scholars believe that Rebecca never told Jacob what God told her, or Rebecca never told Isaac what the Lord spoke to her. Which is interesting because it never says. It never says that they had any dialogue.

[Zach]

Yeah. After this, a lot of hiding going.

[Christian]

So it's weird. So. So God tells Rebecca, you know, maybe the younger, the older will serve the younger. But it never says that Rebecca told that to Isaac.

[Zach]

Well, probably because Isaac, he. He was. He was. I mean, I'm sorry, Isaac favors Esau.

[Christian]

And then this was before that, though.

[Zach]

Well, we find out later, though, that he. That I'm saying that he. Yeah, well, I guess you're right. Yeah. Because this would be before they were born. Yeah.

[Christian]

Because in the next verse says. And then when. When the time came to give birth, she discovered that she had twins.

[Zach]

But.

[Christian]

Yeah, it's interesting.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Christian]

It never alludes to the fact that.

[Allen]

To your point, it really shows that we've always sort of given Rebecca a pass because it's like, well, she got a word from the Lord that seemed to be unique of how things were going to go. So it's almost like it props up her favoring of Jacob, even though he was.

[Zach]

Yeah, it kind of spurs her on.

[Allen]

Yeah. Because she's like, well, God's already told me this, but you're right. She doesn't say that in the text to anybody else. But she knows something nobody else knows, which is big, you know, I mean, explains a lot. Does it explain then, therefore, that they would pull off this whole major deception? I mean, even Jacob was uncomfortable with it. We see that in the text. He's like, yeah. I mean, like, I don't want to be like, this way for dad. So just remember, if you want to do this unashamed for hillsdale.com, you could sign up for this free course that we're taking and loving.

[Zach]

And we're in. What are we on Lecture 5 right now? So we got one more lecturing this.

[Jace]

In reading the whole deception, because we definitely could talk about that whenever Isaac or Jacob deceives or Esau with the selling his birthright that I thought Dr. Jackson made a good point on. Like, that really wasn't a deception.

[Allen]

Like, pretty straightforward transaction.

[Jace]

Pretty. Just like Esau said it, Jacob did the thing. But I don't think that in that scenario, Esau was really thinking that was a real transaction. Because later, Esau goes in for the blessing and also is trying to get the birthright.

[Allen]

Yeah.

[Jace]

So. And Jake and. Yeah. And Isaac is giving Esau. Trying to give Esau the birthright in the blessing as well.

[Allen]

Right.

[Jace]

So Esau is like, he made the transaction with Jacob, but he's trying to circumvent that later and get it back. Which is a little deceptive on his part, too.

[Allen]

Right. It's almost like if you. If you and Sadie had, when you were kids, had made something with each other, and then later in life, Sadie was to come back and say, well, you know, you promised me this.

[Jace]

Right.

[Allen]

We were seven. And you would be like, yeah, I was. You know, I don't know what I was.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Allen]

I mean, it's like, what are you talking about? Right. And so you're. I hadn't thought about that, but you're exactly right, because he seemed very flippant, but he was hungry. He was like, I need some red stew.

[Jace]

Yeah. I mean, I've heard commentary about how, like, he gave him the birthright and then he got the blessing, and it was just like kind of like whole scheme and everything. But it doesn't really seem like Esau thought in that moment he was really giving away the birthright. And Isaac didn't acknowledge that to be real.

[Allen]

It was very evident who among these two brothers was thinking the whole time about all this. And it wasn't Esau.

[Zach]

He was strategic Esau in the moment. Feed me, Seymour kind of thing. Like, I just want to eat.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And which is interesting because that's one of the parallels of this color of the stew, which. The. The text that. The. The. I don't know which translation they were using, but it was like, red, red or red, Red stuff. Yeah, red, red stuff. Give me the red, red stuff.

[Christian]

I thought that was funny.

[Zach]

That's funny. I was like, yeah, that sounds.

[Allen]

I had to have some cayenne pepper in there.

[Zach]

When I saw red, red stuff, I was like, is that what kind of translation?

[Allen]

I don't know what translation it was.

[Jace]

Well, this is. This is Robert Alter's translation. This is his translation.

[Zach]

Okay. So they're using. So that's what he's.

[Jace]

So that's what he's reading, that he's.

[Allen]

Like a Hebrew scholar, right.

[Jace]

And he translates it more literally than other versions. And that's kind of what he talks about in the commentary on this.

[Zach]

But what it was. It was just red stew. It was a red soup that was made.

[Allen]

It has some red bell pepper in there, maybe a little bit of tomato, red meat, and some cayenne peppers. The red, red stuff making me hungry.

[Zach]

Good. Yeah. I put that in the menu.

[Allen]

I give away my birthright.

[Christian]

I personally think that. I think Esau gets a bad rap, though, you know, because, like, he gets deceived with the birthright, which is bad. But then when you see the blessing, it seems like he genuinely wants the blessing. And then when the 20 years go by, then Jacob comes back. Esau is very gracious and loving towards Jacob. So if I sort of sometimes think Esau gets a little bit.

[Jace]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[Zach]

He got. He got. He got hosed on this deal.

[Jace]

Yeah, he did.

[Christian]

For sure, he did.

[Zach]

But I like this because it kind of puts that context back into the nations. In verse 30 of 25, Esau said to Jacob, let me eat some of that red stew or that red, red stuff, for I am exhausted. I'm famished. I'm hungry. I need something to eat. Therefore, his name was called Edom. So actually, the name Edom comes from this red stew story. And at this moment of when he sold his birthright, he was so caught up in the moment. And so Edom actually becomes like a nation. And you see this multiple times I read the Al. There's like a ton of references moving forward that when the Bible refers to Esau or Edom moving forward, it's kind of like it's the same thing. And then Jacob gets a name change as well, and his name gets changed to Israel. So when you see Jacob and esau in Romans 9, for example, you really probably should be thinking Esau. I mean, Edom and Israel.

[Allen]

So he winds up having to. Because of all these things that happens. He doesn't steal the birthright. He's given the birthright, he steals the blessing. There's no doubt about that, because that was total deception. And then Esau, in response, becomes so angry that he makes a vow he's going to kill him. And so now we're down to vengeance. And so Rebecca sends him away to her brother, which I find interesting, because Dr. Jackson doesn't. He can't in one lecture go through the whole story. But if you go back and read that whole story, that's one mixed up family. I mean, you know, and Dr. Jackson made the point. He goes back to where she was.

[Zach]

Maybe that's where she got that decision.

[Allen]

Maybe that's where it came from. Because it's a cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs back home at the hacienda, where he's going. Because then we got all sorts of deception going on. We got the lion eyes and the this one and the that one.

[Zach]

He does mention that he ends up sleeping with one of the daughters in the dark.

[Allen]

Oh, yeah.

[Zach]

As. As a trick.

[Christian]

That was. Yeah, that was such a good point.

[Zach]

And then. But that's. But think about who else was blind. Well, j. Well, well, Isaac was blind. Whenever Jacob.

[Christian]

Jacob is duped by blindness, just like Isaac.

[Jace]

That. That is such a good point. I didn't think about that. Yeah, he. Laban plays the same trick that Rebecca plays on, On Israel as. Wait, I'm getting the names mixed up again. Who are we talking about here? Who are we talking about? Wait. Yeah, Rebecca plays the same trick on Isaac in the dark that her brother. That her brother plays on her son. On her son.

[Allen]

Yeah. Which is interesting because doesn't that. In the, in a, in a meta narrative, doesn't that show you that deceivers typically always get deceived at some point? In other words, when that becomes your makeup and you're running with deceitful people, that ultimately you're going to get deceived? I mean, it's just the nature of it. You know, when someone is trying to sell you stuff big time and you kind of feel that oily feeling when they're doing it. You're like, this person has been burned and will be burned again because, you know, you know, they're living by deception.

[Zach]

We have Blake Cook on the podcast a while back, and Joe and I had dinner with him that night after we hit. We had on the podcast, and one of the things he said, he says, hurt people, hurt people. But it's kind of the same thing with deception. You know, deceived people, deceive people, or, you know, but I think what you're seeing in this, you are seeing this pattern emerge of both. Even on God's righteousness. That's one pattern that continues to emerge. That God is going to be righteous every time, he's going to be faithful, and then that we're going to kind of be deceitful. And so the patterns keep flowing down. I was thinking about this. Dr. Jackson didn't mention this, but I was thinking about this when I was reading through the text. And then I got to. Really, when we got. We'll get into this next episode about Joseph. But how often in the entire Scriptures does God actually choose the wrong person? Like, from our perspective, obviously they're not the wrong person. But it's never like the person it's supposed to be ever. Like, it's never the firstborn. It's always. It wasn't Esau, it was Jacob. You know, it wasn't even Ishmael. It was Isaac. It was not Reuben. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't Reuben. It was Joseph. And maybe Benjamin, it's just. And then maybe even Judah. But it's never the one that you think that it's supposed to be. You know, it wasn't Saul. It was a little shepherd boy named David, who's the worst guy on the planet that you would ever possibly imagine to pick to fight Goliath the giant, Right? It was Moses with a speech impediment. Not the guy you want leading the charge. The guy can't even speak publicly. Not your guy. Why would you choose him?

[Allen]

And a guy who had totally been rejected by Egyptians to begin with, and here he is going back in to somehow exert power.

[Zach]

And then ultimately, a baby and a manger who was a carpenter, not born.

[Allen]

To nobody, from the wrong side of the tracks up in Daddy to redeem.

[Zach]

The sins of the world. So I think that the picture here, there is a picture here of something happening. And I wonder if some of this plays into that Paul's language in Romans, which we had mentioned before, of how the Gospel would come to the firstborn, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. So I wonder if some of that plays into this, this idea that there's this, this. This God is doing something in human History, where he is going to bring all nations to himself, all peoples to himself, that he's going to be. He's going to sit on that mountain, Zion. He's going to sit on the top of that mountain. Isaiah 2. And all the nations are going to start to flow uphill to worship him together. That's where I think the favoritism part comes in. Whereas there's no favoritism with God in the end.

[Allen]

Well, and again, to advance the story. So during this whole time with Laban, which Dr. Jackson didn't have time to get into, this is now going to correlate over four wives and 12 kids. And the one he loved the most, which was Rachel, which started the love affair. He loved her deeply, couldn't have children, and so she doesn't have blessings of children to the very end. She has the last two, Joseph and Benjamin. And now we've got four times the robbery. I always say when I describe the family of Jacob, we talk about blended families. You know, in our culture, this was a family in a blender. I mean, you talk about massive rivalry times four. We got. Now we got 12 kids with four different moms and everybody's trying to jockey into their position, which is very powerful.

[Zach]

Yeah. By the way, go to unashamedforhillstell.com you guys can sign up for free and take this course with us. And we're in lecture five, but we want you to start back at the beginning. Get the commentaries too, by the way. But go sign up because, I mean, honestly, I think it's going to give a lot more meat and texture to our conversations. If you're doing the courses with us, would encourage you guys to do that. But. But yeah, your point is what you call it a blender.

[Allen]

Yeah, blended family in a blender. Because, I mean, this thing, it gets nasty. It gets nasty. But, you know, in that process, I think all this drives Jacob because the whole storyline and he, he jumps ahead to then the. The moment where he's going to meet Esau for the first time after all these years. And so now it's like the moment. Right. And his assumption is, because Esau had promised to kill him, you know, decades earlier, that it's only festered, it's not getting better. But all this has somehow sort of reshaped Jacob into his own deception, I feel like, because now he's lived through all this and he sees the results of it and he's very fearful to face his.

[Jace]

Oh, he knows. He knows he messed up and he knows that Esau is going to destroy him.

[Allen]

My favorite part is still.

[Christian]

It's still the deception of Esau coming. He still sends Leia and all them.

[Zach]

Ahead of us going up there.

[Christian]

Y' all go ahead and see what happens.

[Zach]

To be fair, though, I think we see a repetition or kind of the blessing that goes to both Esau and Jacob. In some version. We see the blessing that goes to both Ishmael and Isaac, but we also see that all these characters also share equally in kind of like the sin. So, like, yeah, Jacob deceived him, but Esau did. I mean, Dr. Jackson points this out. I mean, he did sell his inheritance for a bowl of the red, red stuff.

[Jace]

Right?

[Zach]

I mean, that is a sin. And he mentioned that in. And kind of that. In that. That particular cultural framework, that this actually was a very egregious sin to sell your inheritance in this way.

[Christian]

Well, then, going back to it, because even. Because even we know for, like, this podcast, we've talked a lot about it through the eyes of an Eastern reader to where today, if. It'd be like if Jace cut his beard and Phil. When Phil was super sick, and hypothetically, Jace got the birthright, and then if Phil found out it was Jay, she'd be like, no, like, you know, like, that's not gonna happen. But. But here. Yeah, it's like their words.

[Allen]

If all of a sudden, Jason became cool like me. Yeah.

[Christian]

Yeah, but like, the words, like, Isaac couldn't take back what he told to Jacob. Yeah, but to us, it'd be like if. If I tricked my dad into whatever.

[Zach]

Yeah. They'd be like, now you deceived it. Yeah. Contract, null and void.

[Allen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christian]

He would just roast me.

[Jace]

He'd be like, yeah, okay, well, let's take it back.

[Christian]

Then he would just banish you.

[Zach]

To be fair, Al could. Could not. Jace could not have done that until recently.

[Christian]

I know.

[Zach]

If he'd have tried that, like, eight months ago, he'd been like, nah.

[Allen]

He was actually looking at a picture of us on the screen here in the podcast. He's looking up, and he was like, alex, skinnier than me. It was shocking for him. You know, it was good. It was good. It was a moment.

[Jace]

Okay, wait. As we get to the end, I want to. I want to bring up this question. This is a discussion question from the study guide and to get your thoughts. So what is the significance of Jacob saying to Esau, have I not seen your face as one might see God's face? And that's Genesis 33. 10.

[Zach]

That's a good one. I wrote that down. Yeah, I think that. Okay, so think about this. Nobody can see the face of God. I mean, the scripture is pretty clear about that. You can't see the face of God because he's too holy. But when he sees him, he says it's like seeing the face of God. I think this is another part of. Until the redemption has occurred, until there's been restoration, we can't see God. And so in that moment that he says, that was. That. That was actually the moment of restoration. So I think that's also a future reference, that we can't see the face of God until we're reconciled, until we're restored.

[Jace]

I kind of took it as like Jacob is seeing Esau as the emulating God in the sense of forgiveness. Where Jacob was deceitful and thought he was going to have to be judged and have the consequences of his actions be killed. Esau took on the role of God to say, no, I forgive you and you can live.

[Allen]

Plus, I think the sequencing of him wrestling with God then and him coming out of that injured, in other words, not whole, because when you wrestle with God, that's what happens. You realize God's God and you're not. That then prepared him to finally, for the first time, fully submit himself to his brother.

[Jace]

Right.

[Allen]

And say, I can do nothing to fix what I messed up. And then he's totally at the mercy of Esau. If Esau wants to take out his sword and kill him, that's what he's going to do in the moment. Or his family or his kids and his wives and everything. But he doesn't. Instead, he receives forgiveness. I think your point is right on top.

[Zach]

Well, and Dr. Jackson brings this up when Isaac blesses Esau, because you mentioned that Esau got the blessing as well, because he went in there, basically. Is there any blessing? Jacob stole the blessing and the birthright. Now he's taking my blessing too. Is there anything you can bless me with? And one of the things that, as Esau's like, I don't know, nothing left, but he does come up with a few things. And one of the things he says is, when you rebel, you shall break off his yoke from your neck. And this imagery of the neck, it takes on a new significance.

[Allen]

He points it down. That's a big statement.

[Zach]

Yeah. When Esau falls upon Jacob's neck and kisses it, when they reconcile. And to me, I think when you see the face of God, isn't that what we're experiencing? We know that we've deceived God. We know that we've stolen what was. We didn't actually steal it because we can't steal from him, but we tried to. To grab what was his and make it our own is kind of the very nature of sin. We talked about that in Genesis 1, when they ate from the tree of the garden. We try to do it alone, to dine alone. And if you think about this idea of the face of God, which Dr. Jackson brought up in the very first podcast, as being kind of the central piece of this. We talk about this on the Unashamed podcast a lot, and not yet. Now that me and Jill do that, we read the Bible through the lens of God's presence. I mean, that's the primary purpose of the whole thing, is God's presence with his people. And so atonement, the atonement of Christ actually becomes a means to how we get into the presence of God. What does it mean to say the presence of God? All that means is I get to see God's face when I'm in Jill's presence. What does that mean? I see her face. I look into her eyes. We love each other. We're here, we're having dinner together. It's a community communion union. It's face to face. And here's the thing. You can't be face to face without God if you are unwilling to dine with him, which was the original sin. And so then to come back into restoration is actually to repent and to say, I actually don't want to dine alone. I want to dine with you, God. And then God, he comes down and breaks that yoke on us, and that's how we get back into relationship with Him.

[Christian]

Yeah, I thought that point about the yoke was so interesting because I've never heard anyone kind of articulate it this way. He was talking about it from the idea of, like, when. When Isaac is giving Jacob the blessing, thinking it's Esau. Like, in that moment, Isaac, Jacob has to be realizing that there was really going to be nothing left for him. Yeah, I've never thought about that. When he's giving. When he's given the blessing and, you know, Jacob's tricking Isaac into thinking he's.

[Allen]

Esau because he's playing fake Esau.

[Christian]

Yeah, he has to be thinking, like, there really was going to be nothing left for me.

[Jace]

I hadn't thought about either.

[Christian]

I hadn't thought about that.

[Jace]

I mean, you know, in your mind, oh, he's tricking him and he's getting the blessing But I had never thought the blessing was for Esau. And Jacob was hearing what Esau would have gotten, which was what he would not have gotten.

[Zach]

So every time he tells him, he thinks he's done. And Jacob starts to get up and he's like, no, no, no, there's more. He's like, yeah. So it's got to be, like, exhilarating in one way, because, you know, you're getting all this, but then also, like, you're depressing. Depressing. Like, I get. I wasn't going to get any inheritance or any real blessing in the end.

[Allen]

Wow. But I like, I love you, Dad. I like how God always looks ahead because Dr. Jackson didn't deal with this. But there's a huge moment when Jacob is on the run because he's now shaping the life he's going to be. You remember when he lays down out there on that stone and he has that vision of the ladder going up to heaven and that picture that he really, I'm sure, doesn't fully understand. But the idea is there's a bridge being built.

[Zach]

Temple motif.

[Allen]

Exactly. And so when you get to John 2, Jesus says, when he's talking to Nathanael, who just said, rabbi, you're the Son of God, you're the King of Israel. You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that. And I love it, the idea that Jacob gets this glimpse of greater things than himself in the moment. Because then Jesus says, I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man, talking about himself. But he's describing the picture that Jacob saw all those thousands of years ago, still stewing in his own dishonesty and deceit and all of it. I love how God gives us a glimpse and a vision of something greater than ourselves. Because he knows when Jacob exposed his neck to his brother, that could have been a neck of death. Instead, it was a kiss of forgiveness. And that's exactly what we can all expect from God, is the beauty of that moment. I think about Jesus when he was standing in the Garden of Gethsemane, and Judas comes up to betray him. What does he give him?

[Zach]

A kiss.

[Allen]

A kiss. And that meant to be the kiss of death. But what Judas didn't realize is, you're not taking my life. I'm giving my life. So I just. I love the imagery. And that's the beauty of these stories is they show you that bigger glimpse, like you were talking about Jacob and Esau. Are more than that. It's Israel and Edom, but it's also everybody that's ever lived with the opportunity.

[Zach]

It's also us and Christ, us and God. And you see that, that pattern play out throughout the entire scripture. This is a key text to that. I love that you brought up that Jacob's ladder portion as well. Because that ladder was the connection again of heaven and earth, and heaven and earth coming together. That is the place that we occupy for good or bad. We kind of when we're rejecting the dominion that God gave us. Because if you go back to the beginning of Genesis, he said, be fruitful, multiply. Here's what made you be fruitful and multiply. Subdue the earth, have dominion over. In other words, take the Garden of Eden and expand this throughout the entire globe. And so where the sin comes in is to abdicate that responsibility. And then you take the God given dominion, the dominion that God gave us, and you hand that over to the idols. So instead of us having dominion over creation, we allow creation to have dominion over us. Which is the shirt. I actually wear that shirt. Worship the Creator, not the creation. Yeah, man. Real quick, just go to Unashamed. If you guys want to be a part of this with us. Do want to encourage you to actually take the course because it's really good. Go to unashamedforhillsdale.com you can sign up for free and you can take the course with us. We really want you guys to do that. We're in, we're in lecture five. We're finishing up here. Then we're going to move into the last lecture in Genesis.

[Allen]

I want to bring up because we're running out of time, but the Dr. Jackson made a really interesting point I never thought about before. You remember when they were born, of course Esau is first. He's the elders, but they're twins. And so, you know, first is a matter of seconds or minutes, right? And so there's this idea of the grasping of the heel. Remember? Because like he comes out and. And Jacob's grasping his heel as he's.

[Zach]

Going out at the beginning of the.

[Allen]

Rivalry, at the beginning of the rivalry. So it kind of shows in the womb, he's like, right, he's like hanging on, like, hang on, get back in here, I'm coming out. And later, when they're at this pivotal moment of forgiveness, he says, Jacob says, remember, he points out, he says that, he says, you know, I'm just gonna, you go ahead. I'm gonna take my time here. I'm just. Which is very un. Jacob, like. And he says he was grasping the heels of the livestock, the children. The idea there. That same imagery was used like a leisurely stroll. Exactly.

[Zach]

Type of.

[Christian]

Compared to a strife.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm not grabbing your heel to pull myself up. I'm just kind of strolling from behind, watching the family roll.

[Allen]

Exactly.

[Zach]

So you kind of see that, the fruit of that.

[Allen]

And I thought that was interesting. I'd never thought about. Yeah. And how the imagery plays itself back.

[Zach]

Out because it's kind of a picture of rest. You know, we're called into rest. I mean, Hebrews talks about this. You know, we're actually enter into the day of God's rest. And I think that that's a picture of what that rest looks like. It's not a striving to be first and grab the inheritance, to grab the blessing. It's a sitting back and enjoying the blessing that God's given you.

[Christian]

Yeah, I think that's cool, too. I think. I think that's the. And that's always a lesson I've heard with Jacob and Esau is, you know, when God choosing Jacob versus Esau, it's, you know, that that idea of God can do more with someone who's passionate, even if it might be misdirected at times, versus someone who's maybe kind of more lethargic because you have Jacob when it's, you know, it's the birthright and then it's the blessing and then it's working for Rachel and then he has to work more years and then it's the wrestling with God. So there's always. It talks about how he has the, like, chutzpah, which is just this grit and this tenacity and kind of just the picture of, you know, God can do more with someone who's on fire for something, even if it might be misdirected at times, versus someone who's just, you know, not going to want to put in the work for it.

[Zach]

That's great. I tell my. I told Max this recently. Max, my oldest son, which I raised. I've realized recently that I have zero, like, passive children. They're like, all, like, extremely, like. Like, I have to tamper down the ambition. You know what I mean? But I was telling him, I was like, I mean, honestly, I'm thankful that you are so amped up. Yeah, it's annoying at times and it drives me nuts. And like, we got like, you need to work on this. But, man, I would much rather have that. I'd rather bring you down than have to be like, hey, come on, buddy, let's go, let's go. And I, I think that's kind of the. The point that you're making.

[Allen]

But I do like the idea of the name change, which was really big. And because, in essence, we all go through that, right? I mean, we go through the idea when we take on the name of Christ that we become a Christian, we become a follower of Jesus. And so in essence, all our names change, right, when we become like him. And so I like that idea here and that he was the deceiver. And then he says, you're going to have a new name after that whole wrestling match that he has. And I've thought about this before because of my parents. You always wonder how you got your name, how did you come up with this? And sometimes it'll be a family name or different things, I guess after both of your grandfathers, right? And so each of us. Well, so I'm like, you know, I'm the kid that's like, well, you know, everybody has a name. Jason, Silas. You know, that makes sense. Willie Ezel. You know, Willie was after, you know, mom's dad. Where did Marshall Allen come from? They're like, I don't know. We don't know. We just, you know, we like Westerns.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Allen]

Was like, well, that doesn't. I mean, that sounds very random. Like you're named after two Western. Like, we like Marshall, Dylan. We like that.

[Zach]

It didn't give you the thing you were looking for.

[Allen]

I mean, I was like, it just felt so anti. Clark climatic. I was like, so I'm named after, like, Western people.

[Zach]

There's no significance there.

[Allen]

Just not. It's just like, we like Westerns. And I was like, huh. That. That was very deflating for me. You know, I thought one is something like a cool family name, something. And so I realized that, you know, like, in my childhood is like, well, that just seemed too random to me. But I've learned later that it doesn't matter because ultimately the most important name that I have was the last name, which is the one we all enjoy in family and what we're doing and what we're trying to advance forward. When they. When they talk about the Robertson family, they don't go into our specific names. And so I like that idea here that God is saying when you. When you go through this wrestling match of your own life, and in Jacob's case, it was all these things from childhood forward, the rivalries, all of it. When it's Laid out on the table, and it's an honor. And I don't know about y', all, but I've had some wrestling matches with the Almighty, some version of it in my own mind or whatever. And at the end of the day, I come out, not on top, but totally on my knees, saying, all right, God, I trust you. And that's usually when the right name is added. That's when I finally had submitted myself to him. So I've always loved this picture. When we grew up, we love wrestling. We were wrestlers. We'd watch it on tv, then we'd put a quilt on the floor, figure fours, and then we would do all DDTs, and we were doing. And when the cousins like Jax showed up, they were just fresh fodder, you know, they were cannon fodder for all of our moves because they didn't know what we were going to pull. We all knew to be defensive, but we learned. But you learned quickly, right? And so I just. I love the idea that this was a wrestling match for freedom, you know, which is ultimately what he did.

[Jace]

So, yeah, I was thinking about that and in the name change and. And thinking about Israel being like, those who struggle with God and just that whole idea. At camp this summer with the campers this year, I normally do, like, a Bible lesson in the morning, but this year, I took that morning lesson time and had the counselors, like, share their testimony. And our theme of camp was creation. And so it was, how has God made you a new creation? So the counselors did like, 15 minutes of, like, this is who I was before God. This is what God did in my life, and now this is who I am now. And the feedback I got from the campers, especially the high school campers, was we thought the counselors were perfect. Like, we thought they had it all together, knew God this whole time. Like, we didn't know that they doubted or struggled or sinned or had repentance or anything. And they were feeling. The campers were feeling. Thought that was so good for them and felt so good because they were like, oh, we can doubt, but then also come back to God. And I think that's, like, this idea here. And I think as. Especially as young Christians, we think like, oh, we've got to be perfect. We strive for perfect. We see more mature people, Christians or people in general, and say, like, oh, like, they've always been like that, but they forget that. Like, no, it's a whole struggle. And that doubt and that struggle is part of your faith and your relationship.

[Zach]

That's good. I think that realization and understanding is also not just a application from this. I think it's actually the meta narrative that runs through it. And what I mean by that is when it comes to these names and it comes to these people, I mentioned earlier that it's never the one you thought. Right. Just look at the lineage and how kind of the bloodlines flow in here. Because in the next episode, when we talk about the last lecture, lecture six, we're going to get into Joseph's story. And a lot of people know that story. It's a very famous story of the Bible. But you think it's going to be. Well, it could be like it's going to be Reuben because he's the firstborn. I mentioned this earlier. Well, then it's like, well, no, it's going to be Joseph or Benjamin, because those were obviously the favors, but it really wasn't even them. It was Judah. Jesus came through the line of Judah, which is a total curve ball because you're thinking, okay, I got the pattern established now. It's not the firstborn, it's going to be the favorite. Well, no, it's not even that. It's Judah. So what was that significance is that Judah was the one that really came to repentance. And so I think there's the idea that God's going to move through the repentant. And so Judah actually become. When they have the divided kingdom later on, it's the 12 tribes, they all go their separate ways. And then you got Judah stand by itself. And so if you look at the kings, once the kingdom, once Israel divides up with Israel and Judah, do you know how many good kings that Israel had once that happened? I know. You know, Al.

[Allen]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Zero.

[Allen]

None.

[Zach]

None. And Judah had its own issues as well. But they. But if there were any good kings post divide, they all came out of Judah. And so that's why we say hell, Hell, the tribe of Judah, you know, that's why Jesus came from the tribe, the lion from the tribe of Judah. And so you see that procession out is always, I think it's interesting, it's through the repentant. And so the repentant is not the people who have it together. It's never the people who have it together. It's the people who admit that they don't have it together and turn to the living God and say, God, they lift up the empty hands of faith. That's the act of passivity that I think that we're talking about would lift up the empty hands of Faith to him. God help. You know what I mean? And that's the path he's moving.

[Allen]

That's good.

[Zach]

So, again, we're finishing up here. What we're doing is. Join us every Friday. We're doing this every single Friday. It's called Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. I'm telling you, you're going to get a lot out of this. So here's what you could do. If you're listening and you're not signed up yet, go to unashamedforhillsdale.com you can sign up. It's completely free. And the reason why it's free is because some very generous donors from Hillsdale had made these courses all possible. So they're free to take. And so far, over 4 million people have gone through and taken these courses, which is amazing because there's like, Exodus. We're in Genesis right now. They've got some CS Lewis courses. They got Dante's Inferno. That'd be a good one. And they got the Federalist Papers. There's a bunch of them. So they have over 40 online courses that are taught by Hillsdale faculty on history, literature, theology, politics. We want you guys to be a part of it. So make sure you join us and kind of. And they're like, what, 20, 30 minutes long a piece? Some of them are a little bit longer.

[Allen]

Probably average about 30.

[Zach]

Yeah. And they're on video, so you can take them whenever or wherever you want. You just log in, set up an account. And no ads, except for the fact that we're promoting the show. But that's the only ad that. It's not really an ad. We're just inviting you to participate in this with us. So, again, thank you all for coming. And then we'll come back and finish up our last part of Genesis, which will be the story of Joseph, which.

[Allen]

By the way, is half of the book of Genesis is this one story that we're going into. So it's kind of interesting that. That more chapters are dedicated to that particular story because it really then sets up the whole idea of Israel going into Exodus. It all comes out of that last story.

[Zach]

So. Yeah. And one thing to think about is, as you're listening to these, make a comment in the YouTube section. Of what? Once you look on the Hillsdale courses, you guys let us know what one you want to do next.

[Jace]

Yeah, that's a good idea.

[Zach]

And then I'm going to. I want to do Exodus because I think it flows directly out of Joseph. Right. It's like just like, it's just like a perfect thing. But. But look on there. We'll. We'll. I mean, I'm open to, like, y' all vote, and then what do y' all think?

[Allen]

Yeah, leave it up to the.

[Christian]

We can lead up to a vote. Unless we just don't like the way that. Yeah, I think Exodus would be fun, too.

[Jace]

I do, too. Well, I've heard it said that. That Genesis is the prequel to Exodus, that Exodus is the. Is the story in Genesis. Is this leading up to it. And so that Exodus seems like a natural one, but there are so many courses.

[Zach]

We get around to it eventually once.

[Allen]

You know the narrative not to want to go there. Because it's funny. Zach is preaching through Exodus at his church. I'm preaching through Joshua at our church, which is then the sequel to Exodus. And there's so much good stuff in there, so. And by the time we get the New Testament, all of it is a shadow of everything we see.

[Zach]

Well, we call it the New Exodus language.

[Allen]

That's right.

[Zach]

We get. So I would like to do Exodus, but. But we. But we're also. I think we're going to be able. We're going to keep doing this.

[Jace]

We'll do several of them.

[Zach]

So, like, we just vote on the next one shameless plug Exodus, and then we'll. We'll pick out which one wins and unless Christian wants to be a dictator and override a dictator.

[Allen]

Well, he's bigger than all the rest of us.

[Jace]

We'll definitely do whatever. Whatever you vote. Unless it's not Exodus. Then we will do Exodus.

[Allen]

I've wrestled with God many times. I don't want to wrestle with Christian right now.

[Zach]

I don't know what you think, though, so thank you, guys. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamed for hillsdale.com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode. It.