Ep 1173 | Jase Defends His Uncle Si–Style Storytelling & Jesus Says Eternal Life Starts Now

Summary

Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Ep 1173 | Jase Defends His Uncle Si–Style Storytelling & Jesus Says Eternal Life Starts Now

Date: September 25, 2025
Hosts: Jason, Jase, Zach, Missy, Reed
Special Topics: Family storytelling, the study of John 17, eternal life as a present reality

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Unashamed" brings the Robertson family and guests together for a deep, engaging Bible study centered on John 17—Jesus’ prayer before his arrest. The conversation travels from the quirks of Robertson family storytelling (and its sometimes Uncle Si-style embellishments) to the profound nature of eternal life according to Jesus. Together, they navigate personal anecdotes, generational faith, and rich theological themes, all in their signature blend of Southern humor and heartfelt conviction.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Embracing Robertson Storytelling — Embellishment, Love, and Identity

• [06:13] Jace on Embellishment: Jace admits to inheriting a flair for dramatic storytelling from his uncle, Uncle Si, and now sees it passed down to Reed. The family laughs about how these stories sometimes get mistaken for truth by listeners.

  • Quote: “He said, you should never be listened to or taken seriously unless you have duck calls in your hands. Or a Bible.” – Jace (10:34)
  • Memorable Moment: Discussion on how even podcast episode titles tend to highlight the wacky family stories over the deeper Bible study elements, leading to confusion for new listeners.

• [04:40] Reed’s Perspective as a Guest: Coming onto the podcast, Reed was surprised by the depth of Bible study versus just storytelling, flipping expectations for show newcomers.

  • Quote: “I did not think it was going to be as much Bible study as it was. I thought it was going to be a lot more, like, storytelling and stuff... Definitely not.” – Reed (04:40)

2. Family Dynamics, Humor, and Everyday Mishaps

• [07:21] Light-hearted Banter: The crew enjoys a string of stories about missed utility payments, bank hacks, and expensive dinners—evidence that even the most fame-infused, faith-focused families face everyday challenges.

  • Memorable Moment: Missy explains how her family’s autopay glitch nearly got their electricity cut off, sparking jokes about “Daddy Warbucks” and evictions.

• [13:19] On Listening to the Podcast: Missy and Reed share why, before joining, they didn’t listen: “If I want to hear my dad ramble on, I'll give him a call…he’ll go for 45 minutes.”

3. Jesus’ Prayer in John 17 – The Deep Dive

• [16:41] Setting the Context: The team transitions from laughter to a line-by-line discussion of John 17, comparing Jesus’ honesty and vulnerability in his prayer to the often surface-level nature of modern Christian prayer.

  • Insight: Prayer is seen as an intense, pivotal moment for Jesus—he prays “when something big was about to happen, typically, which is exactly what this is of course.” – Jason (22:18)
  • Observation: The three-part structure of Jesus' prayer: for himself, his disciples, and all believers.

• [17:28] Jesus' Emotional Honesty:

  • Quote: "You believe at last...but a time is coming and has come when you will be scattered...In this world you will have trouble. But take heart, I have overcome the world." – Jesus (as read by Jason)
  • The group unpacks how Jesus' statements foreshadow the disciples’ impending doubt and flight—reminding listeners that faith is often tumultuous.

4. The Meaning of Eternal Life: It Starts Now

• [28:11] Eternal Life Explained:

  • Reed and Zach reflect on John 17:3, challenging the common misconception that eternal life is only about “going to heaven.” Instead, they argue, eternal life is about knowing God and Jesus now—a present relationship.
    • Quote (Reed, reading John 17:3): “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (28:48)
    • Quote (Zach): “The gospel is not grinded out. The gospel is a quality of life that's defined here by knowing and being intimately in love, in communion with God.” (32:20)

• [33:55] Heaven on Earth:

  • Jace and Jason connect Jesus' teaching to the ancient idea of the temple—heaven and earth meeting. Jesus is “the place where heaven and earth meet,” and believers, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, continue to enact that meeting.

5. The Power of God's Name and Presence

• [38:53] The Name and Presence of God:

  • Missy brings up how, post-resurrection, Jesus introduces the concept of “my Father and your Father”—inviting believers into God’s family through his completed work.
    • Quote (Missy): “That's the first time he's referred to God, to people, as ‘your Father’...the whole time he said, my Father, my Father, my Father...then after he's built the bridge...now it's our Father.” (38:35)
  • Zach and Jace unpack how, in Hebrew tradition, “the name” of God implies presence and character, not just a label. The command “don’t misuse my name” is about how we represent God to the world.

• [49:42] Jesus Inherits the Name:

  • Zach connects Exodus 33 (Moses seeing God’s glory) to Jesus as the inheritor of God’s name—signifying not only authority but the manifest presence and character of God on earth.

6. Application for Modern Believers: Christ in Us, God’s Love, The Great Invitation

• [53:55] In the Name of Jesus:

  • The group emphasizes that “in the name of Jesus” is not a mere phrase or spiritual password, but a declaration of partnership with God’s presence and mission.
    • Quote (Jace): “He moves into flawed people to further what he started and be the representatives of heaven on earth.” (54:06)

• [55:02] The Completed Work:

  • Jace and Jason reflect on what it means that Jesus could declare his work done before the cross—because he imparted faith, pointed to his identity, and handed the mission to his followers.

• [56:27] The Preexistence of Love:

  • Zach highlights that, before creation, God’s primary attribute was love—the Trinitarian relationship, not wrath or even mercy, sits at the heart of divinity.
    • Quote (Zach): “He doesn't need me to be God...Love is that primary attribute...that's why First John is really keen on...God is love.” (57:11)

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Notable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• [06:13] Jace: "He said, you should never be listened to or taken seriously unless you have duck calls in your hands. Or a Bible."
• [10:34] Jace on Storytelling Advice: “The rest of the time. I'm just kidding. I'm hamming it up. If we're talking about the Bible, I'm serious.”
• [13:19] Missy: “People used to ask me all the time if I listen to the podcast...If I want to hear my dad ramble on, I'll give him a call…”
• [17:28] Jason (reading John 16:29-33): "You believe at last...but a time is coming and has come when you will be scattered..."
• [28:48] Reed (reading): “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
• [32:20] Zach: “The gospel is not grinded out...it's a quality of life that's defined here by knowing and being intimately in love, in communion with God.”
• [38:35] Missy: “Now it’s our Father…that’s the first time [after resurrection] he’s referred to God to people as ‘your Father’...”
• [49:42] Jace: “God deciding to enter the world through the birth canal of a woman. Which echoes Genesis 3:15...the ultimate freedom.”
• [54:06] Jace: “He moves into flawed people to further what he started and be the representatives of heaven on earth.”
• [57:11] Zach: “He doesn't need me to be God. He's God before he creates any of us. Love is that primary attribute.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:04 – Guest intros, initial humor on storytelling
• 04:40 – Reed’s expectations vs. reality for the podcast
• 09:14 – Missy on why embellishments may be too much for some
• 16:41 – The start of the Bible study on John 17
• 17:28 – Reading & discussing Jesus’ foreshadowing of disciples' doubt
• 28:11–33:55 – Eternal life as a present reality, unpacking John 17:3
• 38:53 – Missy connects John 20 to God’s invitation as Father
• 44:56 – Zach explains the power and cultural weight of the name of God
• 49:42 – Jesus as the inheritor of God’s Name and presence
• 53:55–57:34 – What it means to pray/act “in the name of Jesus”; God’s preexistent love

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Conclusion

This episode is classic “Unashamed”—a blend of faith-filled scholarship, earthy stories, and genuine family camaraderie. The Robertsons model open, in-depth exploration of Scripture, challenging listeners to see eternal life and God’s presence as accessible, transformative realities for today—not just for some far-off future. The laughter and humility surrounding their stories only emphasize that God uses imperfect, colorful people to reveal eternal truths.

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Recommended for:

• New and longtime Christians
• Fans of Duck Dynasty/Robertson storytelling
• Those curious about deep yet accessible Bible teaching
• Anyone wrestling with understanding eternal life, God’s presence, and the practical outworkings of faith

Transcript

[Jason]

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[Jace]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Jason]

Welcome back to Unashamed. Back by popular demand. We couldn't just let you go. We. Because we. You did such an awesome job, both of you guys did about telling us your story, but we wanted to have you as part of the Bible study as well. And you took a lot of notes, right?

[Reed]

Yeah, I'm ready.

[Jason]

Yeah, this is the best part.

[Zach]

She was ready for John 17. Yeah. And then Reed even brought his Bible. So.

[Jason]

So I got show the audience here. This was. So I'm staying with the. Some of the folks from I am second. And there was a picture of Reed inside of there as well. Look at.

[Jace]

I just did one of those.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jason]

Now it was. Jason did something and Bobby did.

[Jace]

They did. We were all there together, but I'm not sure.

[Jason]

So I. Four were done. I guess every family member is going to be in that white chair.

[Missy]

But that was brilliant. That was really young. That was before I had my. I went through my identity crisis and.

[Jace]

Had long hair and all that.

[Jason]

Well, when they reached out to me, read me initially to talk about dad and they said they kind of want to do something about like prodigals. And so it was going to be me and dad and you, I think. And I said, well, look, I. I really think Jeff would be great for this project. And I love the idea of Reed because I like the idea of generational prodigals. And yet everybody come back. So that was kind of the idea and that was the first one they did.

[Jace]

So then they came to me and Said we want to do. You're in the last one. Older brother of the prodigal.

[Jason]

Oh, really? Is that what your thing is about?

[Jace]

That's what it is. It was actually my idea, but they went with it.

[Jason]

Really?

[Jace]

Oh, yeah. Because they were like, I had not.

[Jason]

You and I have never talked about what you did, so I didn't know.

[Jace]

It was something I've never done before.

[Jason]

It was. You and I have talked about on the podcast. We have kind of that our roles, which were flip because I'm the older brother, he's the younger. But in life, we were the other way around in terms of kind of how, you know, our own struggles, which I think was pretty powerful. I'm so glad you did that.

[Zach]

I was the middle brother, which he. He wasn't even in the story, so I don't even have a story.

[Jason]

Yeah, well, that's the problem with middle brothers.

[Jace]

No, you were in the story when he was in with the. In the hog pen. Yeah.

[Jason]

That was a gist.

[Jace]

I love Zach.

[Zach]

Jace has to qualify every time he rips me because everywhere he goes now, he gets. People ask him about his relationship with me, and literally, it's the number one question he gets now. It used to be, what is side really that crazy? Now it's what's going on.

[Jace]

Did you see where that joke went? He was one of the pigs with the prodigal. He was the friend.

[Jason]

He was the one that was helping Squander. Well, no need to.

[Zach]

Hey, if you're listening, no need to defend me. That was funny.

[Jace]

I don't.

[Jason]

Well, we were talking about this recently somewhere. I was at. And they were talking the podcast, and I was like, it took people a year at least to get used to our podcast when we first came out, because they were like, they're so rude, and they talk over each other, and, you know, they won't let somebody finish. And Jace is so rude, and, you know, they need to let Phil talk more. And it was just all this back and forth, and. And then finally somebody had the light bulb moment. They said, oh, this is what they do.

[Zach]

This is like, this is our child love language. Well, you jumped the podcast, but you do the family, too, because you're part of the family. So what? But I was going to ask you at first, when you having the. Did you come into the. To the unashamed podcast, were you, like, skeptical, like, what. I'm gonna check out what this is about, or were you actually coming expecting it to be, like, impactful?

[Reed]

I did not think it was going to be as much Bible study as it was, I guess. Like, I thought it was going to be a lot more like. Yeah, yeah. Or like telling stories and stuff and, like a little bit of Bible study. Yeah, Definitely not.

[Jace]

I've been telling. We'll have a few nonsensical stories that.

[Jason]

Dad used to hate because dad would just be sitting there ready to chomp.

[Jace]

I don't hate them, but, you know, I'm not in love with them. But what the people in the production do is they make the titles from those stories of the podcast. So it gives you the illusion that this is not a Bible study.

[Zach]

It's a bait and switch. I mean, it's a fair point. So there is a little bit of righteous deceit, maybe.

[Jace]

Is that the word?

[Zach]

It's clickbait.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Zach]

You're drawing them in through the title, but then they get in and they, oh, we're deep into a Bible study here in the Book of John.

[Reed]

Yeah. But then when you really listen to Unashamed and you're trying to go back looking for an episode, you're like, I can't find it because of all these random titles. I'm like, what's what? I'm going into the show notes.

[Jason]

That's our biggest complaint is not being able to kind of track by that about what. What the content is. Because for us, you imagine we're in 1200 in. But it was funny because we had me on at one point. And so I was saying with me, you know how your dad is. Is like everything is like the worst thing that's ever happened to any human being in the history of humanity and his stories. And Jason. Well, I don't think that's true. And Mia said, yeah, dad is true.

[Jace]

Yeah, she just, like, totally, like, embellishment for effect. And I get that from an uncle. That which is the greatest story, which.

[Jason]

Y' all both share a name.

[Jace]

I passed that on to Reed.

[Reed]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Reed has got a little bit.

[Jason]

Oh, Reed. When Reed was a youth, he's. He's a little. Now he's a little more mature about it, but when he was a youth.

[Zach]

He would you weave a tail back in the day.

[Jason]

Oh, my goodness.

[Missy]

I mean, everybody still weave a tail.

[Jace]

He could still warning Reed. You said Reed called me showman. What can I say? Reed called me. And I thought he was checking on me to see because I was going to go to their house, Missy's keeping their kids. And just to make sure how we were navigating traffic. And he was like, well, I actually want some Coffee. And I'm seeing when you're going to come and you're. This is. And I quote, it's something I would say. He's like, there's a coffee shop 18 seconds from where I'm at. And I thought 18 seconds. That might be an embellishment for effect because it was probably longer than 18 seconds.

[Missy]

It actually is pretty close.

[Reed]

It's going to stick to you.

[Zach]

Did you.

[Jason]

Did you.

[Zach]

And you. But you got coffee, right? You didn't run out of money? No, because I know your. Your electricity almost got turned off today. We found that out, too, by the way. We're recording Missy's watching your kids, and the. The guy shows up at your house to turn your electricity because you haven't paid your bill. Yeah.

[Jason]

We might can pull a few dollars.

[Jace]

Together, do that with just kids being.

[Zach]

Well, actually that way. You said my mom actually is where y' all ate dinner at was too expensive. Y' all are talking about that high dollar meal and now you can't afford to pay.

[Missy]

We had Daddy Warbucks here. But no, the whole story with that is we. Our bank got hacked. Autopay didn't work. And so here comes this guy. And my mom calls me right after the first podcast we did, and she's like, there's a guy here. He's going to cut off the electricity. And he saw the kids and said, I'll give you a few hours. You need to get this taken care of. And I was like, mom, I already. I literally paid for it. Because I got a call from him, too. It's all good, you know, just forgot that.

[Zach]

Turned off.

[Missy]

No good.

[Jace]

This is the first I'm hearing of this story. Yeah.

[Zach]

This.

[Missy]

Which made me realize now I got to go pay my water bill and my gas.

[Jason]

They were. They will be lining up.

[Reed]

Yeah.

[Jason]

My water gets cut off, but every six months because something will happen like that. And, you know, we're out of town lots. If something happens to the automatic way of paying for things, then all of a sudden, we're not there. So I have no idea. So somebody staying at the house and there's no water.

[Jace]

Speaking of nonsensical stories, let me tell you the title here.

[Zach]

The title will be that Jason son gets evicted from his home.

[Jace]

That's it.

[Reed]

Yeah.

[Zach]

That's the title. Right.

[Reed]

In Brighton, can't pay their bill.

[Jace]

Seen walking down the road holding hands with three toddlers looking for a ride.

[Zach]

We got three. We got a bunch of good titles here.

[Jason]

I will say this before we jump into our text that the reason I mentioned that about Jace, that's why Missy says she can't listen to the podcast. She can't take the embellishment.

[Zach]

She can't.

[Jason]

It's just too much for her.

[Reed]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jason]

So you're able to look past that?

[Reed]

Yeah, I can look past that and enjoy ourselves.

[Jace]

I have to.

[Reed]

I'm kind of perfectly removed.

[Jace]

I have to make a P essay eversoft. And I feel like it's time now, and now that you're going to be a part of the podcast. In a Bible study, there was a guy named Kevin McIntosh who was supernaturally brought to the Lord. We've told the story many times. He actually you. You mentioned him this directional. I did, yeah. Because he posted a video from Like 1980 something, maybe 89. I don't know. It's old of me sharing Jesus. He asked me to do this video and he's like, hey, there's this thing coming out called the Internet. I was looking out, what is that? He's like, do a. Do a gospel presentation. And I'm going to put. Put it on there. And he did. I think, you know, 14 people watched it.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Jace]

But he's like resurfaced it now. And now it's probably doing pretty good. But anyway, this guy.

[Jason]

You had no beard, short hair, the whole look.

[Jace]

I don't think I had a beard.

[Missy]

You had a beard.

[Zach]

In the spirit of embellishment, I just wanted. I think that. I think the actual video was around circa 2000, like 6.

[Jace]

Really?

[Zach]

It wasn't 8. It's still a long time ago. You were young, 20s.

[Jace]

Well, here we go. And now I'm gonna give him my psa because I had no idea. It looked. I looked a lot better than I do now. Yeah. I was younger or left. So the PSA. Because Kevin McIntosh said this one time, after I told an embellished story, he said, I've noticed something about you. And I was like, what is it? He said, you should never be listened to or taken seriously unless you have duck calls in your hands. Or a Bible.

[Zach]

There's. There's the pitch. There's the picture of him. Wow.

[Jace]

I thought, you know what? That's good advice. The rest of the time. I'm just kidding. Yeah, I'm just kidding. I'm hamming it up. If we're talking about the Bible, I'm serious. And the duck calls. I actually know a thing or two about duck call.

[Zach]

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[Jace]

He sent it to me.

[Zach]

But it's good.

[Jace]

I don't like watching.

[Missy]

People used to ask me all the time if I listen to the podcast. And I was like, no. I was like, if I. If I want to hear my dad ramble on about whatever, you know, that was before I knew how big of a Bible study it was too. I was like, I never heard of that.

[Reed]

Pretty recently, I was like, look, if.

[Missy]

I want to hear my dad ramble on, I'll give him a call and I'll say, hey. And he'll go for 45 minutes and I'll say, all right, good talking to you. I got my fill, you know, psa.

[Jace]

Well, look, Reed, you will say this sometimes you will call me and Brighton, you're just now being introduced to this and you will ask me some random question and I will give a 15 minute Bible.

[Missy]

You will?

[Jace]

I will. It just. I don't. Because I'm thinking, oh, this must be the reason I studied that, because now Reed's calling me. So here you go.

[Jason]

Yeah, yeah, it that. Which, by the way, you got that from dad, because dad would always be into something, and whoever walked through the door is like, oh, well, they all mighty. Sit down over here, son. Let me tell you what you need to hear.

[Jace]

I did get that from my dad. I do that all. Look, I'm not kidding. I walked in from a podcast a couple weeks ago and we had the. We have a little cleaning team. They're called the fairies, maybe the cleaning fairies. And one of them like, how's your day been? And the next thing I know, they're all standing there with pails and brooms. And then I realized I've been talking.

[Jason]

A long time ago, I was just being nice. That was like, hello.

[Zach]

Yeah, paying them by the hour.

[Jace]

So they're like, well, they were.

[Zach]

You were paying them.

[Jace]

I didn't care because I thought. You asked me how my day went. And I just launched into. It was a podcast after party with the people cleaning my house. But I think they were. They weren't bored. Yeah, let's put it that way.

[Jason]

No, they like the stories. People like stories.

[Jace]

And I figured at any time if they didn't like it, they could go back to cleaning. But I thought it was good.

[Missy]

And hey, it's not lost on me that there's probably so many people that listen to this podcast. I wish they could just call you up and be like, what did you mean by this? And I have that. That blessing of being able to do that. So I appreciate that and I feel.

[Reed]

Like I get it now. Like, when you're so deep in study, you're like, you're so excited about it. You're like, I gotta tell somebody, you know?

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

Well, your thrill has, like, made my thrill even more.

[Reed]

Yeah. Now we just feed off each other.

[Jace]

Yeah. I mean, it's. We're family here. We're talking about spiritual things. And then a lot in the. In the Bible, if. If you don't really look kind of deeply, you'll miss. And I think in this study of John, I think we've done a better job of connecting the dots back to the Old Testament.

[Jason]

Well, and even going forward because we spent a lot of time in First John as well. Because, you know, John is. Obviously has all these years on him when he is writing these books. And so, you know, you get the idea as he brings it forward and you read First John, you realize, like, wow, the application he takes from not really understanding into right now, seeing it so clearly, it really brings that to life, which is where we're going to go next in the study, by the way.

[Jace]

Now, you wanted to read the end of John 16 before we technically get into John 16.

[Jason]

Yeah, I wanted to because I can't remember exactly. And we may have read it all, but I want to read at least this last part that gets us to the prayer starting in verse 29, because they finally feel like he's. Now they're getting a little bit of clarity. They still don't quite get it, but. But they're getting it better because Jesus disciples said, and it's funny that John would say this because he was part of that group. Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech, almost like they've been frustrated, you know, with all the parables and the way he goes about it. Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to ask anyone. Anyone ask you. Have anyone ask you questions because, you know, the whole thing is this. Jay's pointed out, which I never noticed, how Many Q&As there are in this book.

[Jace]

How many questions he asks compared to how many questions he's being asked is three to one. Jesus is asking profound questions.

[Jason]

So they said, this makes us believe that you came from God. So it's almost like that, all right, we're. We're in. You know, we're going to do this. And then Jesus. And this almost sounds like sarcastic to me. Maybe it's not, but it sounds like you believe. At last. Jesus answered, but a time is coming and has come when you will be scattered each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me. I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. And that was one of the reasons I wanted to bring that up, is because he mentioned joy up in verse 19:24. He mentions love in 25:28. Now he's peace. Do you notice how he's hitting the fruits of the spirit? So this whole time he's been talking about the Spirit, explaining Now he's like, here. Here's what you're going to see. This coming, your life. I've told you these things so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart, I have overcome the world. Which John is also going to pick up later in verse.

[Jace]

I'm glad you brought it up, because, look, he's basically saying, you believe it lasts until I get arrested.

[Jason]

Which is the next chapter.

[Jace]

Because then he's like, but a time has come is coming, and has come.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Jace]

When you will be scattered. That's fixed to happen a few verses later. One chapter specifically.

[Jason]

Exactly.

[Jace]

They didn't get it.

[Jason]

They didn't get it. Which.

[Jace]

We talked about that with Dallas when we were talking about the chosen, because that's a big question with people. Because I think we all put ourselves in their position. And I'm glad I wasn't. Because I want to believe that I would believe. But I just think we're not realizing these things he's introducing are absolutely hard to wrap your head around. You're going to die. Oh, and come back. Okay, great. Like in some mystical way, but not actually. Right. How could you wrap your head around that?

[Zach]

Well, he's turning the world upside down. I mean, that's. You hear that? But he really is turning their entire paradigm on its head. And they just have no. You can't understand something that is beyond your kind of realm. You know what I mean? So when he's introducing the kingdom of God and the kingdom is breaking into reality, I mean, there's no possible way they could have understood it.

[Jace]

Right. Well, just think about that statement. He says, I have overcome the world. What's a normal human being thinking in that moment, really? You're under Roman rule. You're. And he worked with your dad as a carpenter from.

[Jason]

He literally has nothing. Like, he has home, no money, no. No anything. No symbol of anything of worldly power.

[Jace]

He hadn't even written a book, you know. Yeah. You're having to borrow a coin to make an illustration about what's on the coin, and you've overcome the world. Just what kind of statement is that?

[Jason]

When even. Even the statement he made earlier about destroying the temple and raise it up in three days. You know, everybody's like, what?

[Jace]

I mean, but even think about this statement, the way he said it, he's like, but take heart. Yeah. So whatever he's fixing to say, take heart in this. I've overcome the world. Oh, what is he crazy?

[Zach]

Well, he kind of defines how he did that. In the, in the verse before it, when he says, basically, you know, I am not alone, for the Father is with me. I've said these things to you that in me you may have peace in this world, you'll have tribulation, but take heart, I've overcome the world. So he's really anchoring the whole thing back in presence and that him and the Father are united. So when you get to John 17, it's like the invitation at this point is invitation that now you get to come. I'm inviting you to participate into and actually to partake of this divine nature that I'm already. I'm already in.

[Jace]

That's why this gets so good in this prayer.

[Jason]

Oh, it's good. Well, Jason, want to just read some of it?

[Zach]

Sure.

[Jason]

I don't know. Read all of it however you want to do it.

[Jace]

I mean, here's what I'm going to say for I read some of it is I read this several times in preparing, and this gets dense, complicated. It makes you realize that our prayer life is pretty weak compared to Jesus. I mean, I think this is only, I guess, a couple of times he cried out, maybe in prayer. And you have the Lord's Prayer where he taught the disciples how to pray.

[Jason]

Yeah, I wrote down several. He. I did notice one thing because there's like Luke 3:21, Luke 6:12, John 6:15. These are all times when he was praying. And it was always when something big was about to happen, typically, which. Which is exactly what this is, of course, and the density of it and the depth of it. But yeah, you're right. Say in Luke 6:12, he spent the night in prayer. I mean, I've never spent a whole night. I mean, I've prayed before at night and I've had some sessions and some discussions with God. But I mean, it seems like you would think if he's the Son of God, he wouldn't need to do it, but he shows just the opposite. And I think it's because of that. It's because of that what is described in Romans 8 as this sort of time when the deity all is together. I mean, that's kind of our contact in prayer, the Holy Spirit, Jesus the Father.

[Zach]

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[Jason]

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[Zach]

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[Jason]

It'S like that, bringing together.

[Jace]

I mean, we're in a pivotal moment here. He is representing God. He said it over and over, over and over again. He's like, if you've seen me, seen the Father. He's now introduced the Holy Spirit that's coming. He's in between, you know, he's fixed to be arrested. Like so he's passed this on to his disciples because he actually makes this statement here my work has been completed. And you're like, well wait a minute, I thought you were just getting started. You hadn't even died yet. But he wanted to show the power of God, the character of God. That's why he used signs to show what this relationship is. He's introduced the Holy Spirit, he's now previewing what's fixed to happen. They're all going to run. And so in that moment he has this prayer. So it's one of the few places in the Bible that I think you have to grab ahold of the entire prayer and just kind of meditate on it. And all of a sudden some theme lines kind of approach out of that and what his overall mission was and what that meant to human beings. So like in my divisions before I read it, they have it split into three ways. This is not inspired, they just have it. Jesus prays for himself, Jesus prays for his disciples. Jesus prays for all believers, which is kind of a weak. You know, nothing compares to the prayer itself. It's just our human understanding of what he's fixed to say is hard to wrap your head around. But I've seen some where they divided into seven divisions.

[Jason]

Well, I've always thought the three wasn't a bad thing, because you see that a lot. Three has been a big number here throughout the whole book of John. But also when you read in the other accounts, because John doesn't go into the sweating drops of blood. Remember, Luke mentions that. So the other gospel writers mentioned this prayer leading up right before the arrest in a little bit different manner than John does. He got in, I think, to the content of what it was. And so remember. And he kept coming back over to wake him up. You know, they were supposed to be, you know, be there, but it was three times, you know, so it could have been this. These segments that this was what he was pouring out. We know from the other ones. He also said, you know, is there any other way? And then he said, not my will, but yours be done. Which again, is not mentioned here. So I think you're just getting this, like, this is like the dense piece. And I don't know if John heard this or, you know, how it was relayed or maybe they prayed this on their way to the garden. I don't know. You know, I'm not exactly sure how it plays out, but I know it's different. John's version is different than the other three gospel presentations. They just give a little bit different look at it.

[Zach]

But.

[Jason]

But his, like, he's done with this whole thing. 14, 15, 16 is the only one that talked about the Holy Spirit too. Yeah, none of the others do.

[Jace]

What I find interesting is if you look at like, common phrases used or words over and over, he uses some version of give given or gave 17 times in the prayer. So we might need to figure out what was meant by that. And world is about the same amount of times. Especially include the last two of the last verse we just read.

[Zach]

Well, I mean, we could read the first five verses at least. I think that it's interesting from our last podcast, you had said something, Brighton, that made me think of this particular part of scripture, which, by the way, in my opinion, John 17 is like one of the most important chapters in the entire Bible.

[Jace]

I would agree.

[Zach]

Once again, this is like. This is not. In fact, we are. Our entire church is centered on. If you think a lot of churches will have like a verse that they center the. Ours is centered on John 17:3, which gives us a definition of eternal life that I think to. What. What did you said in the last episode? I don't. You were talking about. We first started and you were kind of telling your testimony a little bit, but you said something about how you viewed the kingdom. Yeah, like it was like. It was like. Or like I forgot how you said it.

[Reed]

Like I'm just trying to not sin like in life.

[Zach]

Yeah. Like it was way out there almost. Yeah.

[Reed]

Like God is kind of in this far off.

[Missy]

You're just trying to grind it out.

[Reed]

And like we're just grinding it out till the end instead of like, oh, I'm living in the presence of God now as a believer. And this verse really helped me, I feel like understand that and I don't. I'll just read it. And this is eternal life that they know youw, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom youm have sent. That's like a present thing that's happening right now. It's not something that's like. You always think of eternal life like, I'm just gonna live forever once I get to heaven and then everything's gonna be perfect. But like we're getting that now as a believer. And I get to walk with the Holy Spirit living inside me now.

[Jace]

I think that's the key phrase because we tend to think every time we're talking about being glorified or eternal life. It's always a distant thing. But you know, you read verses like Romans 8, 11. If the Spirit of Christ who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who gave life to Jesus mortal body will also give life to your mortal body. So that is a resurrection verse. But that little phrase, if he is living in you, it's a big point. It's a huge point. So he spent three chapters saying, I'm going to give you a helper, the Holy Spirit, that Greek word Parakletos, who will be in you forever.

[Zach]

Yeah, that's so key because if you look at Moses, whenever the whole story of Israel coming out of Egypt, there was a promise that they were going to get to go to this place. And it was called the Promised land. And that was the big promise. It was the big deal. But there's that moment in Exodus 33, whenever Israel, right after they'd made the golden calf and Moses is like, I have to go down and make now I have to make atonement for you people. You stiff neck people. What have you done? I can't believe you've done this. And he's like super embarrassed. And so he goes and acts as a mediator on behalf of the people, which he's kind of a precursor to Christ because Christ becomes the ultimate mediator. And Hebrews makes that point later. But if you, if you read his argument to God, which is absolutely hilarious because it's like he's trying to manipulate God and, and like, like it's funny that he thinks he can manipulate God just like you think like, like Jacob could out wrestle God, right? So he's, he's arguing with God.

[Jason]

Your people.

[Zach]

Yeah, your people. Your people. And in, in his discussion with Yahweh, Moses basically says that the promised land without your presence is worthless. And I think that's how we've interpreted our Christian walk at least. I was like you. It was always like, I viewed heaven as the promised land. Is it like a place we were going to? But then meanwhile I'm sitting there when you were in college and I'm college minister at Whitesbury Road. I'm like, I'm looking at these college kids, I'm like. And so I always thought my message would have to be, hey, 18 year olds, grind it out for the next 60 to 70 years and don't do any of the fun stuff. And then you get to go to heaven. And I'm like, that's a tough sell. You know what I mean? That is a tough. It was liberating for me to see like what you just said, because I was like, wait a second, that's not the gospel. The gospel is not grinded out. The gospel is a quality of life that's defined here by knowing and being intimately in love, in communion with God. And eternal life is very clear. This is eternal life. What? Not that one day you get to go to heaven, it's that they know you, the one true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you've sent. Well, when in the world does that happen?

[Jace]

Yeah, well, that's what I wanted to say. So if you go back John 2, you remember where this started. One of the signs after the wedding, which I think was significant, we would, people would one day be married to Jesus, the body of Christ. Well then it gets into the temple, he clears out the temple and they're like, he makes this famous statement that basically, I am the temple. Destroy this body and I'll raise it up three days. The temple he was talking about was himself. Well, and so you go back to the temple and then you look in the Old Testament, you have heaven and earth kind of meeting together with the presence of God. On earth through the various forms, tabernacles, the temple itself. And so you have Jesus first prayer when he's like, I pray your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And so you get the idea that Jesus is saying, I'm the place, even though I'm a person, where heaven and earth meet. God became a man from heaven, which he says tens of times, maybe over a hundred, I came from heaven. I came from heaven. I came from heaven. I came from heaven. We're all focused on going, going, going. He's like, I came from heaven.

[Jason]

I'm not of this world. So, Zach, as you know, you look back over the history of the world, you see a lot of different periods where there are a lot of atrocities done to people. And do you ever just like, think, man, I wish I could go back and somehow make a difference and change, you know, this situation or that situation?

[Zach]

Absolutely. The history is littered with a lot of darkness, for sure, but there's also quite a bit of light.

[Jason]

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[Jace]

So even it look even in this first five verses. Watch where you see this at.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

He says so after he just said, I have overcome the world. Jesus. After Jesus said this, he looked Toward heaven. He looked toward heaven and prayed, father, the time has come. Glorify your son, that your Son may glorify you, for you granted him authority over all. And look, this word, people, that is in the NIV is the same word for flesh. When the Word became flesh, I looked this up on another podcast. But over all flesh, that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now, this is eternal life that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. And then watch this next verse. I have brought you glory. Where on earth he looks to heaven. Well, now here's where you got to stop and say, what does. He just got through telling the disciples the last three chapters. I'm fixed to leave. I'm going to heaven. But don't panic. Don't. Don't be alarmed. I'm going to.

[Jason]

Don't be troubled.

[Jace]

I'm going to give you a helper. Well, where is that coming from?

[Zach]

Heaven.

[Jace]

Heaven. And it's going to be in you. And where are you at on earth? And this is how the new temple, this idea of new creation is being formed. And you even see it subtly here, which you wouldn't notice that unless you had gone through the temple rabbit hole all the way back. And him Saying the John 2 is what I'm saying. He looked up to heaven. Do you think he's doing this by accident? No, he's trying to validate the message. He's been telling them all along, I'm the gateway to God, heaven and earth.

[Missy]

Like I'm about to build a bridge, basically. And what, you. You told me this a few weeks ago. If y' all have already talked about this, you can. You can stop me. But in John 20, so after he's died and is resurrected. This blew my mind when you told me this, where he says, do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father, but go to my brothers and say to them, I'm ascending to my Father and your father, to my God and your God. And am I correct? I'm trying to remember. If I'm remembering this correctly. You said that that's the only. That's the first time he's referred to God, to people, as your Father.

[Jace]

Yeah, and our. Your Father and our.

[Missy]

Right. No, it says to my father and.

[Jace]

Your father and your father.

[Missy]

So the whole time he said, my father, my father, my father who has sent me.

[Zach]

And.

[Missy]

And then after he's built the bridge we're talking about, after he's connected and you've gone through the gate. He's built this gate, like you just said. Now it's our Father, you know, Exactly.

[Reed]

And I think it's like God is going to dwell with his people no matter what. Like from the beginning, he's always going to find a way. And I was in studying for this, I was reading Deuteronomy 12, where the Lord is choosing a place of worship. And it says over and over again, but you shall seek the place that the Lord your God will choose out of all of your tribes to put his name and make his habitation there. And there you shall go. Verse 11. Then to the place that the Lord your God will choose to make his name dwell there. Verse 14. But at the place that the Lord will choose. And every time he says that, like after, and still in verse 11, it says, There you shall bring all that I command to you. Your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, your contribution that you present, and all your finest vow offerings that you vow to the Lord. Which is funny because none of that is really sufficient. Like, Jesus fulfills that now as a dwelling place. Like now we get to be the dwelling place.

[Jason]

That's a good point.

[Zach]

Because if you think about the focal point of that is looking, you gotta find the place of worship, right? So you get the New Testament in John's Gospel with the woman at the well. What does she ask, what's the place of worship? Do we worship on the mountain or where my people worship? Because we got a temple up there that we built. The Samaritans built our temple up there. But you Jews worship in Jerusalem at the other temple. Which temple do we worship at? I mean, that's a big question. And think about how provocative Jesus answer is, because he said the time is coming and in fact is now here, when you will neither worship God on that mountain nor in Jerusalem. Even that alone. The fact that Jesus Christ himself said that you will not worship God in the temple that's down there in Jerusalem. Jerusalem, he said that?

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Zach]

I mean, so the fact that today's like, what, what's, what's the date today, September 23rd, that we're filming this. I know this will come out later, but they're saying today. Yeah. Is the Rapture. I don't know if you've been reading this or not online. Like, today is going to be the rapture.

[Jace]

I don't read many things.

[Zach]

Well, I don't think it is going to be the rapture. Maybe it is or not, but. But the point is, I hope not.

[Missy]

We're all still here.

[Zach]

Well, I mean, yeah, we're all still here.

[Jason]

So if we walk outside, nobody's out there, boys.

[Zach]

But think about this idea that we're waiting on, like to be ra up into heaven, when Jesus seemed to clearly teach that the center point is going to be in human bodies and eventually it'll encompass the whole globe. But to your point, we're waiting on to go to heaven, which is, I think the point of John 17:3 is that's not what heaven is. When you read the end of the Bible, you see the kingdom, you see what is it, the new city, the holy city, the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven. So it's coming to us in the end.

[Jace]

You also don't see us dwelling with God. You see God dwelling with us. Look at it carefully. That's what it says. I wanted to comment on these nuggets that Brighton brought up in Deuteronomy 12, which is awesome. But later on in that chapter, in verse 18, and I haven't studied this, I was just reading ahead, there's also statements that you're actually going to see mirrored in John 17 with this God dwelling with people. Like in verse 18, it says, instead, you are to eat them in the presence of the Lord your God, at the place the Lord your God will choose. Then when he gets to verse, Let me see, 21, if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put his name is too far away from you. And then he goes into this and that idea, which the name is mentioned a little later in this chapter. And there's a rabbit hole that I want to go down, that I'm not going to go down on this podcast. But when we get to that section, us as English speaking humans, we think, oh, a name. It's a title given to someone. But in the Old Testament, the name, like I just read in Deuteronomy 12, it was more than a name. It was a type, a title given to a way to address God without saying his actual name. Which is why that's still a thing even in our culture today. Which goes back to Exodus 3, when Moses Remember the burning bush. It's like, well, who should I tell them? And he goes in to start talking about his name and what does he point out what his name means? I am. Which here's Jesus, Christian knows, here's Jesus saying all these titles about I am, I am, I am, I am. And my point is, when he gets to John 17 and I'll go ahead and read that verse because we can go down the rabbit hole when we get there. But when he says that about the name in verse 11 of chapter 17 of John, I will remain in the world no longer. But they are still in the world, and I am coming to you, Holy Father. Protect them by the power of your Name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. Well, what is that doing in Deuteronomy 12? What is the significance? Because the Name, from their understanding, was more than just a title. It was a presence. It was a power. It was a character being revealed. It's like you carry the Name. That's why in the Ten Commandments, when it says, don't misuse my name. But if you look up the Hebrew, it's like, don't carry my name in a vain way. It's like you're representing. And it's not all of a sudden, don't curse in the middle of, don't murder and don't steal. It's actually the way you represent yourselves is carrying barriers because you're an image bearer.

[Zach]

Well, a lot of the image. So a lot of Hebrew scholars prefer to say that in the Exodus 3, that I will be what I will be. That's one translation of I am. That I am. Another one would say it when you look at the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament, is I am the Being one. But when you look at what some people point to, I think this is a better way to say it. The Hebrew word here. I wrote this down for a sermon I Preached on Exodus 3. It's the verb to be, Hahiyah. It doesn't just point to existence. So Yahweh's not just saying, I am. I eternally exist. Although he is saying that it also points to this. Listen, Manifest presence. Exactly. Something breaking in, something showing up, something being active. So when he says to Moses, I am, what he's really saying is, I am. Which means, I'm here, I'm present, I'm with you. I think that's what the whole point is centered around his presence. And the name of God is important to this because until Exodus 3, God said, I never told anybody my name.

[Jace]

Oh, exactly.

[Jason]

Which is interesting that that even includes the patriarchs that received the initial promises. I think I should read he didn't say the name.

[Jace]

I think we should read it because.

[Zach]

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[Jace]

Let me just read this. So verse 11. I mean, he's like Moses, I got a job for you. And Moses said to God, well, who am I? Which is the backwards version of I am who? Which is how God responded, not by accident. Who am I?

[Zach]

I am who?

[Jace]

Somebody. We're in Nashville. Somebody should make a song about this. I've said that many times that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelite out of Egypt, because that's what we all think at some point. Well, who am I that. That I can represent you, bear your name. And God said, I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you. Does this not sound familiar? Does it not sound like what Jesus is claiming? When you have brought the people out of Israel, Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain. Does that not. Does that not sound familiar? And when you talk about liberation and ultimate freedom, now this is their being liberated from an oppressing government. But what did Jesus offer in his freedom? How about sin and death itself? The ultimate freedom? Moses said to God, suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, the God of your fathers has sent me to you. He's acting like this is ridiculous. They're going to ask me, well, what is his name then? What shall I tell them? God said to Moses, I am who I am. Or like what you said, I will be what I will be, which has a little letter there to say that this is what you are to say to the Israelites, I am has sent me, me to you. And Jesus echoes that now as the. He's. He is now God in human form. This is one thing. What Jesus did is another. Yeah, God deciding to enter the world through the birth canal of a woman. Which echoes Genesis 3:15 and the curse that was put on the evil one about, I'm going to crush you.

[Zach]

Well, let me say this because I got to get this in before we run out. But. But there's so much in John 17 about the name that Christ inherited that he received, that God gave him this name.

[Jace]

That's where I'm going with that.

[Zach]

This is so interesting. If you go to Exodus 33 again, when Moses is telling God, we can't go to the Promised land, if you're not going with us, I'm not going. If you're not in it. Well, I'm not going. Blot me out if you're not going to be there with us.

[Jace]

And then.

[Zach]

And whenever he is in negotiation with God, which he wasn't really negotiating, I'm just using hyperbole there, but he says, show me your glory. And this is what God says. He's affirming Moses, I'm going to show you my glory. And then God basically defines what his glory is in the very next verse in Exodus 33:19. And listen to what he says. And he said, I will show you my glory. He says, I will make all my goodness pass before you. So this is his glory, his goodness, and will proclaim before you my name, the Lord, Yahweh. And I would be gracious to whom I am gracious, and I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. So the glory of God is His goodness. What you said earlier, the part you're missing out on is the goodness of God. While you sat in that church and listened to that song and thought, I ain't feeling that right. But his goodness is his glory and his name. So when you think about Yahweh being revealed as the name of God to Moses and then to the people of Israel, and then basically that was the identity. That's how they identified themselves, was by his name. When you get to John 17:3 and Christ is talking about a name that he's inherited, and the center point of all this, then you start to see, wait a second. In the very essence of the name of God is manifest presence, eternal existence and manifest presence. And Christ is now embodying, he has inherited that name. Then you start to understand what Paul meant in Philippians 2, why at the end of time every knee will bow and every tongue confess what the name Jesus Christ is. Lord.

[Jace]

Exactly. So look fast forward because I know we're almost out of time. So you have this where Jesus just brings that up about the name in John 17. Then what happens? We know Jesus fixed to be arrested. He dies, he's buried, he's raised, he has this fellowship with him. You gather up in Acts, he's like, wait here till you receive the power. The Holy Spirit, which he predicted John 14, 15, 16 is poured out. All of a sudden you see this sign goes Back to Genesis 11, Tower of Babel. All the languages were mixed. And now they hear their own language from these voices of the disciples. That's the miracle. Peter stands up, preaches a sermon about Jesus. And when they hear it, and he specifically got into the death and the burial and the resurrection of Jesus, he's Lord in Christ. And the people heard this, they're like, what do we do? And Peter replied, repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ. It wasn't just a title, he had gotten it. This is the presence of God that you're witnessing via the Holy Spirit. I'm not just telling you a story about a character. I'm doing this by the power and presence of God right now. And people responded. I just think how that should change us. And thinking, oh, God's far off. Which is why all through the Bible it says he's not far. Remember Acts 17, not far from each of us. He's not far from. So you knowing that you have the presence of God inside of you as you're declaring Jesus, I think that is more his point and his prayer in this chapter, which is very powerful. And look, that's not a one case event. They continued to say that in the name of Jesus, in the name. That's how that became a.

[Zach]

It's not like a magic password thought. It's like, oh, if I say it in the.

[Jace]

Okay. In Jesus name.

[Zach]

Okay. And I said the password. Now I'm gonna. Now he's gonna answer the prayer. Anything in my name.

[Jace]

Well, and people argue about it, like what you have to say, but they're, they're. Or even if it's wrong to say it, which is where that came from. They're like, who am I? I'M not even worried. Worthy to mention his name, which I think is a good attitude to have, because we are just human beings that are flawed. But I think Jesus was introducing here because he's going to get to their mission, that he uses flawed people and he moves into flawed people to further what he started and be the representatives of heaven on earth.

[Zach]

Right.

[Jace]

Which is back to the temple language. I want to read the last section of this. 17, 1 5. So verse four, he says, I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. Which is interesting, and we can talk about that on the next podcast.

[Jason]

Is this kind of almost like a celebration point? He brings that up.

[Jace]

Wait a minute. Why would he. And so what this verse takes you back to is, remember the verse in John 6 where they said, what is the work of God? And he said, here's the work of God to believe in the one he sent. And so I think that's the reason he. That's just my opinion. Yeah, but it's like they believe in me. They got it. Even though it's going to be bumpy and you're going to be scattered. Because that's when he said.

[Jason]

Just said that at the end of 16.

[Jace]

Yeah, well, right. He's like, you know, oh, yeah, you, you, you, you believe it lasts. Right? But he. He knew their hearts. And so then it says, and now, father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I have with you before the world began. Well, all of a sudden this gets deep because this goes Back to John 1. In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God. The Word was God. And then you go down to 14, the word became flesh. What's encouraging about this after the Holy Spirit is when he gets to verse 24, he's. Then when he's praying for all the believers, he says, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am and to see my glory. The glory you have given me because you love me before the creation of the world, which now makes this love angle make more sense.

[Zach]

Yeah, I've often used that as a way to really round out a good theology, which is you ask the question, what was God doing before he creates the world? And we know, we now know he was loving himself, and not in a narcissistic way. The Father was eternally loving the Son.

[Reed]

But between the three.

[Zach]

Yeah, but I think it helps us understand the nature of God, because if we try to put other attributes that are contingent upon creation in that spot, you're going to end up like bringing God down. For example, if I say God was pouring out his wrath before the creation of the world, you're like, well, who was he pouring his wrath out on?

[Jace]

Wasn't anybody there.

[Zach]

Wasn't anybody there but himself. There's no sin to pour wrath out.

[Reed]

It requires him to need us.

[Zach]

So wrath becomes contingent upon creation. God doesn't need us.

[Jace]

Right.

[Zach]

He doesn't need me to be God. He's God before he creates any of us. And he also wasn't dispensing mercy before the foundation of the world. You know, he was loving himself. Love is that primary attribute. I think that it's a pre existing attribute. I'll say it like that. And I think that's why First John is really keen on twice. It says in First John, chapter four that God is love.

[Jace]

So I know we're out of time, but I want to say that's why he also uses gifts 17 times. Because what is love? It starts with giving. And God is the giver of everything.

[Jason]

Right?

[Jace]

So you start making that connection.

[Jason]

I like it.

[Reed]

Yeah.

[Jace]

All right.

[Jason]

Well, that went fast.

[Reed]

Yeah, I know.

[Jason]

Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast and don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.