Ep 1174 | Jase Is Named the Robertson Tattletale & Joseph’s Coat of Many Colors Steals the Show

Summary

Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1174 | Jase Is Named the Robertson Tattletale & Joseph’s Coat of Many Colors Steals the Show
Date: September 26, 2025
Host: Tread Lively
Featuring: Zach, Jason (Jase), John Luke, Will

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on sibling rivalry within both the Robertson family and the biblical story of Joseph, as explored through their ongoing group study of Genesis (in partnership with a Hillsdale College course). The conversation weaves together humorous family stories, spiritual insights, and reflections on jealousy, favoritism, and forgiveness, using Joseph’s coat of many colors as a symbol of both biblical and personal family dynamics.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sibling Rivalry in the Robertson Family

• Anecdotes of Childhood Fights:
  The episode kicks off with stories of the Robertsons' own sibling rivalries—ranging from roughhousing and pranks to the classic accusation of tattling.

  • Memorable moment: Jason recalls being hit with a shotgun shell in the head (01:17) and the group laughs about the mild violence and chaos of their upbringing.
  • Jealousy, dominance, and the “snitch” dynamic are recurring themes.

• The Role of the “Snitch” in Families:
  The brothers draw parallels between tattling in their own lives and Joseph’s role in Genesis.

  • Zach humorously describes Fred as “Favorite Fred the Snitch” in his own household (13:17).

---

2. Parallels to the Story of Joseph

• Theme of Jealousy and Favoritism:
  The group notes how sibling rivalry in Genesis is rooted in jealousy and favoritism, first seen with Cain and Abel and culminating with Joseph and his brothers. John Luke points out:

  • “I don't want to rank sin, but jealousy is the one to me that in a family relationship ... is the most destructive” (10:41).

• Joseph: Arrogant or Naive?
  A lively debate arises over whether Joseph was intentionally boastful or simply socially awkward. Will suggests Joseph might be neurodivergent or simply naive, not realizing how much he irritated his brothers (15:08-16:10).

  • Jason raises the symbolic nature of Joseph’s coat (“a pretty ostentatious, like, display”—16:26).

---

3. Deep Dive into Genesis and Joseph’s Narrative

• Synopsis of the Biblical Joseph Story
  The group provides context, tracing the narrative arc from God’s promise to Abraham down to Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers due to jealousy and his father’s favoritism (07:29-12:20).

  • Zach connects the coat of many colors and Joseph’s “snitch” role to the crux of the brothers’ resentment.

• Impact of Jealousy
  Jealousy leads to actions that are rationalized in the moment but ultimately deeply destructive.

  • “You can't contain it ... it ends up having its way with you" (20:37 – Zach).

• Family Trauma and Brokenness
  They discuss the emotional aftermath of Joseph’s disappearance, Jacob’s inconsolable grief, and the long-lasting wounds of unconfessed family sins (22:46-23:25).

• Joseph’s Perspective as a Slave
  Jason offers a poignant observation:

  • "Joseph doesn't know that his father thinks he was sold in... Joseph thinks that Jacob thinks he was killed. So the whole time Joseph is in Egypt, he's wondering why his father's never came to look for him" (24:50-25:19).

---

4. Literary and Theological Patterns in Joseph's Story

• Narrative Parallels:
  The brothers analyze how events in Joseph’s life mirror earlier sibling conflicts in Genesis—each rooted in jealousy, deception, and the breaking (and eventual healing) of family relationships.

• Joseph’s Maturation and Testing the Brothers:
  Joseph, changed by suffering and responsibility, tests his brothers' character upon their reunion in Egypt—accusing them of being spies, arranging their seating in birth order, and manipulating events to provoke true repentance (31:28-34:11).

  • Jason notes that the repetitions and ironies in the story (e.g., Joseph calling his brothers spies) serve both literary and spiritual purposes (32:24).

• Restoration through Repentance (Judah’s Role):
  Judah’s willingness to offer himself as a substitute for Benjamin breaks the cycle of jealousy and deception. This moment of repentance and self-sacrifice is identified as a turning point for the entire family and for God’s people (40:45-42:54).

  • "Judah realized we've been in this situation before and the first time I made the wrong choice. This time I'm going to make a different choice." (41:48 – Will)
  • "There's a seed right here in this text with Judah and his repentance ... that's the moment where there's the restoration" (43:16 – Zach)

---

5. Theological Reflections

• Typology: Joseph, Judah, and Christ:
  The conversation broadens to show how Judah’s repentance and willingness to sacrifice foreshadow Christ:

  • Zach references Revelation 5 and connects "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" to Judah’s transformation in Genesis (43:16-46:58).

• Forgiveness and Purpose
  Joseph’s ultimate act of forgiveness is highlighted as a moment where he fully realizes God’s providential purpose, refraining from vengeance for a higher good (47:54-48:44).

  • John Luke reads Genesis 45:3-7, emphasizing Joseph’s revelation that his suffering was “to save lives that God sent me ahead of you.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sibling Rivalry Rooted in Sin:

  “That's the curse of the very first family ... vengeance and violence was over brother rivalry with Cain and Abel.”
  — John Luke (09:23)

• The Impact of Jealousy:

  “Jealousy ... in a family setting is the most destructive. It's one of the hardest things.”
  — John Luke (10:41)

• Joseph’s Isolation:

  "Joseph doesn't know that his father thinks he was... Joseph thinks that Jacob thinks he was killed. So the whole time Joseph is in Egypt, he's wondering why his father's never came to look for him."
  — Jason (24:50)

• Judah’s Transformation:

  “Judah offered himself up to slavery for the love of his father ... knowing he loves his other son more than you. Which is like, there's so many nuances there."
  — Jason (42:54)

• From Lion to Lamb (Christological Connection):

  "Weep no more. Behold the lion of the tribe of Judah ... But when John turns to look at this lion, he actually sees a lamb that had been slain, but he was standing."
  — Zach (43:16-46:58)

• Restoration through Forgiveness:

  "It's a moment of forgiveness rather than vengeance that changes everything."
  — John Luke (48:44)

---

Key Timestamps

• Sibling Rivalry Stories: 00:01–03:56
• Familial Jealousy/Generational Trauma: 09:23–10:46
• Parallel to Joseph’s Story & Favoritism: 12:21–13:17
• Discussion—Was Joseph Naive or Arrogant?: 15:08–16:47
• Theology of Jealousy & Family Division: 20:37–22:06
• Joseph’s Emotions in Egypt: 24:50–26:13
• Judah’s Pivotal Repentance: 40:45–43:16
• Christological Connections (Lion/Lamb): 43:16–46:58
• Joseph’s Forgiveness & Family Restoration: 47:54–48:44

---

Conclusion

This episode combines classic Robertson family humor and stories with a sincere, thoughtful Bible study that unpacks the personal and theological implications of the Joseph narrative. Sibling rivalry—whether at home in West Monroe or in ancient Israel—is revealed as a powerful force for both division and, ultimately, redemption. The episode also sets the stage for their continued journey through Genesis (and likely Exodus) with Hillsdale College’s online Bible course, encouraging listeners to join in the study and reflect on their own family dynamics, faith, and forgiveness.

---

“It's a moment of forgiveness rather than vengeance that changes everything.”
– John Luke (48:44)

---

Next Step: Listeners are encouraged to join the Robertson family’s Bible study alongside Hillsdale College by signing up at unashamedforhillsdale.com.

Transcript

[Zach]

I am unashamed. What about you? I mean, as a kid, we had. I'd say I. I know. I know what sibling rivalry is. Did you guys have that with your siblings? I know you did, because I've watched y' all fight like cats and dogs. Did you guys have, like, fights with your siblings, or were y' all pretty?

[Jason]

Yeah, all the time. None.

[John Luke]

None.

[Jason]

Like, I think what y' all had, the more, you know, violent fist fights. We definitely went at it.

[Will]

It was like us without all the.

[John Luke]

Violence and the wrestling.

[Jason]

We were never like, you know, was. Was it you that Willie shoved rocks in your mouth, or was that Gimber?

[Zach]

That was Gimber.

[Jason]

Gimber.

[Zach]

But I. But I experienced his abuse.

[John Luke]

Yeah, we just talked his brother into eating a plug of tobacco by telling him it was a brownie.

[Jason]

Yeah. So we. We were more, you know, we, like.

[Will]

We would wrestle, and it was more civilized.

[Jason]

More civilized wrestling. It was not like civilized.

[Zach]

Was there ever blows?

[Jason]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Zach]

Y' all both are big boys that kind of got dangerous.

[Jason]

Who, like, Jace threw a. I can't remember what. Jace threw a. Something. I. I can't remember what that story was, but, yeah, it was a bunch of physical stuff, but never, like, any, like, violent.

[John Luke]

You know, One time I took a. We were. We were in the living room, and I had a shotgun shell.

[Jason]

That's what it was. It's the shotgun.

[John Luke]

I did it two days. And so it's a full shotgun shells, they're heavy. You know, brass on one end, full of lead.

[Will]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

And I just lobbed it across the room. Now, wasn't necessarily. I wasn't necessarily going for a headshot. I was just going for a body blow. But Jay's moved at just the right time, and it just hit him square in the top of the head.

[Zach]

It busted. Busted.

[John Luke]

Oh, yeah, it was. It was a. It was a bloody mess.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

And I mean, I realized in the moment I shouldn't have done that. Was. That was probably a bit harsh. And so dad, you know, he's thumping me or give me a head swat or whatever, and I just thought that really describes our childhood. I mean, Jason just sit there.

[Zach]

But y' all had some knockdown drag outs, too, right?

[John Luke]

There was a lot of broken bones.

[Zach]

I remember. Like, I kind of remember Willie and Jace getting in a bunch of fights.

[John Luke]

And they fought the most, and Willie always. I was sort of. I was sort of the Machiavellian. Like, I was the puppet master, you know, directing all the.

[Zach]

Well, we talked about the pattern of sin, and so I Think the way that worked. The. My experience of that was I would come in as a cousin, and then Willie was mainly the torment. My tormentor. But it's caused. Hurt people. Hurt people, Right.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Zach]

You know, so your dad had to.

[John Luke]

Have someone before Jack.

[Zach]

Your dad had trauma issues, right?

[Will]

Yeah. Because he was the youngest up until. For a while. Yeah.

[John Luke]

But y' all probably didn't have that because of your mom's influence and the other side, because the Howard, we didn't really have that.

[Will]

I think because of just how, like, relaxed my mom.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Will]

So she kind of, like, smooths out, and Because I just had sisters close my eyes. So it wasn't like a rivalry kind of thing. Like, Will was so much younger than me that it wasn't really a thing.

[John Luke]

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I.

[Zach]

Well, being Grant, we had a little bit of a rivalry, but I was six years older, so I was physically dominant. But I would, like, just ruthlessly, like, pick on him, and. And, I mean, I did all kind of things, and until he turned 19, and I was, like, 27, I was married, and he came in to visit.

[John Luke]

And he'd had enough.

[Zach]

Well, he's like. We started. We're talking. He started, like, wrestling with me, and I'm like, I'm just gonna wrap this kid up, like I've always done. And I was like, oh, I think the testosterone has finally happened in the. In his life. And I was like, I. I could not subdue him. And it was like, I. Then I was like, okay, we're done.

[John Luke]

We're adults.

[Zach]

We're done. No more. No more of that. But the sibling rivalry is a real thing.

[Will]

I'm right at that point with Will that I'm sizing him up. I'm like, I don't know. I mean, I know I'm faster, but he's got. There's a lot more power behind his. Yeah, him.

[John Luke]

If he caught you. Just wrong.

[Will]

I know. If he catches me, I think I'm done.

[Jason]

Do you think if Will sat on you, do you think you could get up, or do you think you would.

[Will]

I don't. See, that's. That's what I'm saying. I think. I think on level ground, I think I'm faster. It can avoid. But if he catches me, it gets me down.

[Zach]

You can't grapple.

[Will]

You can't. We can't grapple. If it goes to the ground, I'm screwed. Screwed.

[Zach]

Well, you've done a little jiu jitsu with. With his.

[Jason]

Yes, it was. It was quite interesting. I Don't love the grappling. I respect it, but it's not my.

[Zach]

How much does strength overcome?

[Jason]

Not as much as you would think. So much of it. More is technique than. Than I would have realized because I. Because. And plus, in jiu jitsu, you get. If you go so hard so quickly, you just get gassed.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And I mean, I'm. I'm in. I'm in good shape. And cardio, I'm in pretty good shape. But when you're wrestling grown men and you're not withholding any anything, after about two or three minutes, you just get fatigued.

[Zach]

You know, you're in good company when you have to stop the conversation to get in the conversation. But we're back here every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. We love it. You guys are going to get a lot out of it. We're in the book of Genesis. We're in their study of Genesis, which are at the very end of it now. We're. Man, that actually went really quick. We're in Genesis, chapter 37:50, which is the last portion of the text with Joseph. We're going to get into that today. Here's what you can do that. If you haven't signed up yet, we want you to take this course with us. So not just listen to the podcast, but also actually listen to the actual lecture that Hillsdale's putting on. It's free. You can go to unashamedforhillsdale.com totally free to you. Because their generous donors have made it possible. All their courses are free. I think 4 million people have taken these courses.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Now 4 million and 4. Because we're taking them.

[John Luke]

Exactly. I'm a freshly minted graduate of the course which my Hillsdale College certificate says right there.

[Zach]

So the Genesis is what a printer.

[Jason]

Can you get it framed and put.

[John Luke]

I will.

[Jason]

On the wall?

[John Luke]

I'll put it on the wall.

[Zach]

I think you should.

[John Luke]

My scores of other things I've done well.

[Zach]

I have the wall of Hillsdale accomplishments. As we knock these courses.

[Will]

We'll have a lot of these. By the end of it.

[Zach]

We'll have a lot of them. I'd like to go through all of them if we. I hope we can, you know.

[John Luke]

Well, tell folks about the. Yeah. Give us what you think we are to do next. Those that are taking the course with us.

[Zach]

Well, if you listen to the last episode, we kind of passive, aggressively, aggressively, passively aggressively push for Exodus. So we're going to let you guys decide. As long as it's Exodus.

[Will]

We still haven't decided yet.

[Zach]

We haven't decided yet. Seriously, I care what you think, but.

[John Luke]

We still want to do it because, I mean, at some point, C.S. lewis, I love his stuff. We got to.

[Zach]

Maybe Dante's Inferno.

[John Luke]

Dante's Inferno would be amazing. And I even like the, you know, political stuff and the Constitution. Some of the. Some of the more modern stuff would be a cool. I'd love to have the federal papers.

[Jason]

And stuff like that, but that one would be a blast. Yeah.

[Zach]

Yeah. So I'll be up for that, too. We're open. You would not be over for that.

[Jason]

Okay, so I would prefer the Bible.

[Zach]

Okay, well, you can go check it out on a shame for hillsdale.com. sign up for this one. The courses are 30 to 20 to 30 minutes long. Some are a little bit longer. I don't think anything's over 40 minutes, though. They're all under 40 and they're all on video, so you can take them whenever you want, wherever you want. And so right now, we are in the story of Joseph, which, by the.

[Jason]

Way, less than six was 39 minutes.

[John Luke]

Yeah, that's right. That was the longest one because it's the most chapters in Genesis. I thought that was.

[Zach]

Well, you made that point in the last podcast as we ended that. This is the largest chunk of Genesis is this one story. There's a lot of meat and significance in. In this part of the story. And just to kind of give, like, back up just a little bit, you know, God creates Adam and Eve. We went through kind of the whole creation order. So the way the course is divided up, it's like the pivotal moments in. In the book. It doesn't hit everything, the course doesn't, but it hits these pivotal moments that help us understand kind of the full narrative of where we're headed. Get to the Tower of Babel, and then the creation of nations that come out of Babel, Israel being one of those nations that God pulls out that portion for himself. Those are, as God's chosen people. He made the promise to Abram, I'm going to give you descendants that are like the stars in the sky. Look up in the sky. Try to count all the stars. Abram's like, can't do it. That's right. You can't do it. And that's how many grandkids are going to give you. And then they try to circumvent the promise. Not circumvent the promise. They try to. What would be the word? They try to enable. They try to help God Fulfill his promise with this scheme with Hagar. And Sarah brings Hagar and says, take Hagar to be the wife. They have a child named Ishmael. God's like, nope, that's not what I told you to do. God's faithful. He provides Isaac as the. As the lineage, as the offspring. And then he says, all right, sacrifice the one child that you do have that I told you I was going to give you the grandkids through. Which creates quite the dilemma if you're thinking about how to have grandkids. But Abraham is faithful, and he goes to sacrifice Isaac, but God provides a substitutionary sacrifice in the form of a ram. And then Isaac does have children. And those two children are Jacob and Esau. And now we've talked about that in the last podcast. And now we're on to Jacob. And now Jacob is going to have his own lineage and his own son.

[John Luke]

He has 12 sons, which later in our storyline will become. The 12 tribes of Israel would be named after. It's actually 13 because there's two sons, but that's a whole nother thing. But so what happens is this. And we didn't bring this up, and I was thinking about when you were kind of giving the overview, Zach, that we've been talking a lot about rivalry, which has kind of been a theme, I think, through all of these stories of these early patriarchs. But, you know, that's almost like that's a carryover from the curse of the very first family, because you remember the first time we see vengeance and violence was over brother rivalry with Cain and Abel, which he didn't talk about that in the lecture of that study, but really that's where it starts, right? Because one is making a sacrifice and the other one's like, I don't like that sacrifice. And so think about. He winds up killing his brother over what he was offering to God because of jealousy. And so it's almost like that early curse that comes about because of sin now is sort of a thread line through all of this rivalry stuff about it's gotta be my way. There's jealousy. And it may come out in the wife, it may come out in me, it comes out in someone else. And I don't know about y', all, but, you know, I don't want to rank sin, but jealousy is the one to me that in a family relationship and in a family setting is the most destructive. It's one of the hardest things.

[Zach]

Oh, I agree.

[John Luke]

Is jealousy, because it's like, what are you going to do with it? Like, it's something is actual and it's real. And yet at the same time, what am I. What can I do to fix that? Right, because you're jealous of what I have or what I did or. So our story then, just to advance where we're headed, is now we have 12 sons and favoritism is all over the place. So reminder, go to unashamedforhillsdale.com this is a free course that we have taken and it's very, very good. So I want you to take it with us. This is about 12 sons, and favoritism's all over the place. And we know that from the previous story. If you've been following us, you know that, you know, Jacob had the favorite wife who then had the favorite sons, and they just happened to be the youngest. And so all this is going on throughout the process of their growing up. And it's really amazing because when we come into Genesis 37, which Dr. Jackson does, all of a sudden Joseph's just 17 years old. So we don't get any, like, other background, you know, later, a little bit later, the next chapter, we learn a little bit about Judah and some of his issues. But we just get this, okay? Now they're all grown for the most part, because he's one of the younger, too, right? Which would mean Benjamin's even younger than 17. And we see him emerge as some sort of uniquely gifted kid. And, you know, it all depends on your take how you read this. I mean, and he brings that out. He said, was he arrogant or was he ignorant?

[Jason]

Yeah. Was he just.

[John Luke]

I don't think that's the words he used, but that's what I've always said, right? In other words, did he know he was under his brother's skin or was he just, like, saying, dudes, I had this dream and you got to hear it. You know, everybody was bowing down. All of a sudden it's like, wait a minute, you little punk. You know, and then the other thing was, unfortunately for him, and Dr. Jackson brings this out, he was kind of like the spy called upon by Jacob to keep an eye on the brothers. I mean, which if you're already, like, got issues with your brothers, if you're the dedicated snitch, that's only going to make things worse.

[Zach]

But if you're a loving father, and I want you to hear this, if you're a loving father, you young guys need to know this. You want a snitch, you need a snitch.

[Will]

There's gotta be one.

[John Luke]

There's gotta be A snitch.

[Zach]

So I got Fred as the snitch in my family. But. But Fred.

[Jason]

Favorite Fred.

[Zach]

Favorite Fred the Snitch.

[Jason]

Favorite Fred the Snitch.

[Zach]

Favorite Fred the Snitch is the snitch.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And we. When we went on vacation a few months back to 38 year old your neck of the woods that he loved so much.

[John Luke]

Don't get him started.

[Zach]

Don't get me started on that. I felt bad about ripping the whole thing. I found out your dad does development down there. But anyways, so Fred, he's unashamed about it. So Fred has gone. He's 14 now. So he goes off and finds friends at the beach. So now the tables have turned and literally without me even asking for it. Max, who's in college, my married daughter Layla and her husband Dawson, who are married and on their own, they go and spy on him to report back to me. I was like, you got to have spies.

[Will]

We are just seeing just this passage play out on the beach at 30A.

[John Luke]

Yeah. And by the way, in our family when. When I started my double secret lifestyle as a prodigal, because I did all of it at home, Jase was the snitch in my family for about me. The problem was I was so. I was such a good Jacob, I was such a good deceiver that they didn't believe him.

[Zach]

They didn't believe.

[John Luke]

So it's really bad when you're the snitch.

[Zach]

They got the wrong snitch. He doesn't have the personality of a snitch. You just want him to be wrong.

[John Luke]

And so then he got super angry and it took him years to get over it, both with me and my parents because they wouldn't believe him. And I admit he was telling the truth, but I would beat him up for being a snitch. So he was getting beaten for telling the truth. He didn't even get it and no one believed it.

[Will]

He didn't even get the favoritism. He's hanging for the favor now.

[John Luke]

You understand Jason's personality. Does that not help him a little bit?

[Will]

Yeah.

[Jason]

That is funny.

[Will]

Yeah. If I take on. On Joseph after reading the chorus and reading through it again, it's more like socially awkward. Like he doesn't really. It doesn't seem to me like he knows really what's going on in any circumstance. Like he doesn't really know how the brothers are going to react. He gets in the situation with Potter's wife, which is like he didn't really seem to know what was going to happen. Until he got in there with the. With the dreams later and with Potiphar. He's kind of just doing his thing, experiencing this. And this stuff keeps happening all the way up till the end where he has his brothers come in and he doesn't know what to do in that situation the entire time.

[John Luke]

That's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. That his naivety really is kind of out front with him. And he typically just does what he thinks is the right thing to do.

[Will]

Right.

[John Luke]

It's not about the consequences.

[Will]

Right. It's not like.

[John Luke]

That's a good point.

[Will]

Not intelligent. It's just like he doesn't really know how other people are perceiving him.

[John Luke]

Maybe socially awkward.

[Zach]

What's the term now? Neurodivergent.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Maybe it's like a. Yeah. I don't know.

[Jason]

I feel like. I feel like with his coat, I feel like he. I feel like there was maybe a little bit of that younger brother kind of an annoyance that maybe he knew that that was probably going to get under their skin.

[Zach]

I mean, that's. I think that's kind of a pretty ostentatious, like, display, a coat of many colors to say that you're.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And then you're not having to work and then you're going to report back, and then you're. You're. You're speaking illy of them, which is what it says. And then, hey, I had this dream and you were all bowing down to me. So I feel like there's probably a little bit of that.

[Will]

So that was the take that Dr. Jackson talked about, is that he. Joseph didn't say that. They. The interpretation from Joseph wasn't that they were bowing down. The brothers made that interpretation.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Will]

Joseph didn't say.

[John Luke]

Because he didn't really understand what it was.

[Will]

He didn't understand what it was. It was the brothers who said, oh, we're back.

[Zach]

But it was actually a correct interpretation.

[Will]

It was correct. It was correct. But it wasn't Joseph who made that interpretation.

[John Luke]

And Dr. Jackson makes the point. He doesn't realize it till the very end of the story later.

[Jason]

Right.

[John Luke]

Well. And I always thought, when I've taught this before, especially to kids or at camp, I always said that this was Joseph's letter jacket of the moment. Y' all remember? I don't know if letter jackets are even a thing anymore, but when I was in high school, that was the big deal. If you had the letter. And the more like, patches on there and pins, the bigger deal you were. And so you Know, and then you wouldn't wear them. You'd give them to your girlfriend to wear it. You know, to say, hey, not only am I a big deal, but look, she's wearing my jacket.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

And so I always made that link like you did, that there was something about the jacket, you know, There was something about saying, you know, hey, guys, you know, just not me. They here. But I'm wearing the.

[Zach]

It's like puffing the.

[John Luke]

Exactly.

[Zach]

Shrugging the shoulder.

[John Luke]

And I could be wrong. It may.

[Zach]

In the collar.

[John Luke]

It may totally have nothing to do with.

[Zach]

You think he popped the collar?

[John Luke]

I think he is a collar popper. I just, you know, he just. He seems like he fits into that narrative to me, but. But I love what John Luc says. He's convincing me that maybe in his naivety, he really didn't know how. He was just irritating everybody. Raw.

[Will]

Right.

[John Luke]

You know, in the moment.

[Zach]

Which has a way of irritating you more if the person's actually naive.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Zach]

In there. And they're like, they're the favorite and they're their best, and they don't even know it.

[Will]

And they don't. Yeah. That's even worse with the jacket thing and him getting sold. Like, he. It's kind of like one way or the other, when his brothers called him out to wherever he was going, and he had the jacket on and he put that jacket on, he had to know these. These guys hate me. I know this is irritating to them, but I'm gonna wear this jacket to meet them. Out in the middle of nowhere.

[Jason]

Yeah. He's just skipping through the field.

[Will]

I know. He's like, oh, I'm about to. Like, I'm putting this on. Or he's like, oh, this is my jacket my dad gave me. This is cool. Like, this is like, just a nice thing I have. They asked me to go meet him by this hole out in the woods. Like, okay, yeah, let's see what happens here.

[Zach]

See how this turns out.

[Will]

What could go wrong? Like, he's like, yeah, what could go wrong? My brothers, they like me.

[John Luke]

I don't think. Ever imagine that his brothers would actively talk about killing him.

[Will]

Right.

[John Luke]

I mean, I don't know that any of us ever would. That it would get to that place. And that's where they were. I mean, they kind of came together. The. Your loving brothers became a mob because they were talking about violence. They were going to kill him. And then, of course, Dr. Jackson makes a big deal about Reuben, who's the oldest. It sort of at first looks like, well, he's just the wise brother stepping in and basically saying, no, you know, we can't do this. But he really is self serving because he's trying to get back in good graces. I'd never seen that before. And he's right.

[Jason]

I hadn't heard that either.

[John Luke]

So he had his own agenda as to why he was trying to like save this situation, which was interesting. So if you want to hear more about this directly, go to unashamedforhillsdale.com to get the free course and so you can follow along with us. So it's really interesting how he sort of paints that narrative and then Judah is the other brother that plays a pivotal role in this sort of discussion. And then later when events begin to unfold, once he's sold into slavery, that he has a repentance moment. That's a game changer too, which you brought up in the last podcast, which is interesting.

[Zach]

I think what's happening here is that they're having this collective discussion that they're entertaining out of their own jealousy, which to your point, it's a jealousy. I think there's something interesting about jealousy. You can't contain it. I think we think, okay, I can entertain this jealousy in my heart and this sin, but the truth is that kind of all sin, you can't really maintain it and manage it. And I think that's the temptation that we think we can maintain this and control it, but it ends up having its way with you. And the end of that is always a death work. You know, what God's calling us to is the fruitful multiplication of life. Genesis 1:26. It's a life work. What Satan is calling us to is the end of life, a death work. And so he uses jealousy in this spot to kind of foster an imagination in the brothers. Man, we got to get rid of this guy.

[John Luke]

And in this case, it was talking about. Literally they were talking about killing, physical death. But in most cases now I see jealousy as the death of relationships. How many people do you know that won't talk to one another had been alienated for years. And it started because of jealousy. Either either favoritism or something they felt like they were owed they didn't get or you got.

[Zach]

It's a hard one to confess, too.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Zach]

When's the last time you heard someone say, I'm really struggling with jealousy?

[John Luke]

Rarely.

[Jason]

Of you.

[John Luke]

Yeah, of you.

[Zach]

I'm jealous of you. And I'm really.

[Jason]

It's an awkward one.

[Zach]

Said no one. Yeah, I mean, that's. But. But it's but it's. It's sad because I think it's the root of all kind of issues. It was the root of the issue with Cain and Abel. He was jealous of Abel's offering, you know, and of his heart. It was like, man, I don't have that. And it made him angry.

[John Luke]

Well, and think about the brothers perspective of what they were about to do before they wind up selling him into slavery, which is still super bad, obviously. Right. But what they were going to do through their own dad.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

I mean, to let him think he was dead. So even though they didn't kill him, the pain of that was still there. I mean, Jacob thought he was dead.

[Will]

Thought he was dead.

[Zach]

How do you guys think that? They, like, they take Joseph, they don't kill him. Instead they sell him into slavery. And on some level, I bet they were thinking, okay, we didn't kill our brother, but they did see their father, just like, mourning. Who, by the way, refused to be consoled in that. Consoled. What is that? What's the word I'm looking for?

[Will]

Consoled?

[Zach]

Who refused to be consoled? How do you think they thought when they're looking at Jacob and he's just like, no, I'm not going to be comforted. I mean, think about it.

[Will]

Oh, yeah, they're probably like, yeah, that was too far. I mean, Jacob never gets over it.

[Zach]

Never.

[Will]

He still. Even 20 years later, when the whole. When they go to Egypt, Jacob is still not over it. And that's the whole reason they did the next thing, which was go and get the son and bring him back, because he's still in mourning.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

And I'd say, I bet out of 10 brothers that some of them, like, felt bad about it. And some of them said, see, that's why we did it.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Well, Reuben wasn't even there when he. When he was sold into slavery.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Because Reuben had.

[John Luke]

He thought they really had killed him.

[Will]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jason]

Because he came back and he. The cistern. Yeah. Joseph wasn't in the cistern. And then. Yes. That's another kind of key detail that. That's. That's interesting. So Reuben actually wasn't there when Joseph was.

[Zach]

You. What do you. What do you think? What do you think he thought?

[John Luke]

Because that was Judah's idea. Right. When he. The one that said, let's set him into slavery.

[Zach]

Yeah. Judah was the one she probably thought was like a compromise. Okay, we're not going to kill him.

[Will]

You know, we don't kill him, but he also gets rid of them.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Jason]

One of my Favorite points. And this isn't in. This wasn't in the study. But because I've never thought about this, it's. It's really interesting if you think about it. So because you're reading this story, right? And there are things that you know that at the time, Joseph doesn't know. So if you were to guess what is something that we know that at this point, Joseph doesn't know at this.

[Zach]

Point in the story?

[Jason]

At this point in the story. So what do you know as the reader that Joseph doesn't know?

[Zach]

Are you talking about the point at which he's cast into slavery, that he's going to be second in command of Egypt?

[Jason]

Well, Joseph doesn't know that his father thinks he was sold in. That he was sold into slavery.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Joseph thinks that Jacob thinks he was killed. So the whole time Joseph is in Egypt, he's wondering why his father's never came to look for him. Yeah, but it's because his father thinks he's dead.

[Zach]

Oh, yeah. He doesn't know that.

[Jason]

He doesn't know that.

[Will]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Jason]

So you're reading this thinking like, oh, Jacob. Jacob thinks Joseph is dead, but Joseph is thinking, I'm just sold into slavery. Because Joseph does not know they came back and told him that he was killed and gave him the coat. So when they come later in Genesis 42, they make the point that our youngest brother is dead. It kind of clicks for him that he's like, this whole time my dad has thought I died, but he doesn't know I've been.

[Will]

That's a good point.

[John Luke]

It's an interesting point because I think about the movie Taken, which is such a good movie. Remember when Liam Neeson tells her, you're about to be taken, but I will find you. I will come.

[Zach]

I will find you.

[John Luke]

I will find you. And I have a certain set of skills. And then remember, I love this thing when he comes in, he shoots the bad guy. And she says, you came. And he says, I told you I would. And it's just like that idea we would expect as a teenager. Dad's coming.

[Jason]

Yeah, he's going to come find me. He's going to come find me in Egypt. But Jacob thinks he's dead, so why would he go live?

[John Luke]

That's a good point.

[Will]

That also explains because as Joseph gets higher up in Egypt, he could have sent word at any time to his father and said, hey, I'm here and I'm alive. But he never does that because he thinks his father never came and got him. Yeah.

[Jason]

Which is why Pharaoh kind of became that father figure.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Because he thought his father.

[Zach]

Just.

[Jason]

Which. Because leading up to that, you've seen that with Jacob and Esau and then Ishmael. Like there had been times where like. Because I think it was kind of the correlation of like Joseph thought he was kind of like Ishmael of like he was casted out. Like he was, he, he thought he was Esau. He was, you know, kind of the one that didn't receive the blessing. Which is.

[John Luke]

Well, and even, even if. Cause we were kind of debating over how much we think Joseph knew as a teenager. One of the things you can say safely about Joseph, because we're, we're. We're going to watch through the text that Dr. Jackson couldn't deal with because he went to the inner. Is sort of his character slice in chapter 39, chapter 40 and 41. So this is from when he was 13. This is all these years later. So now he's 30 years old. So you're talking about 12 years of development of this young man and now into a man, a teenager into a man. And every time we see his character on display, it's pretty good. I mean, he gets in the first situation, he's in slavery, he's in this man's house. He's, he's so he's. There's something about him. He's so impressed with that as a teenager, he turns everything over to it.

[Will]

Right.

[John Luke]

So obviously he's got some skill set. And then of course, his wife gets after this guy. And look, I would imagine in this day and age, if he's a young man and said he was well built and handsome, like Christian. And so it's like, you know, they would just think, well, that's part of my. I'm a slave. I mean, I'm being told what to do. The wife says I have to sleep with her. You know, it's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it. And so, but he does it. He's like, no, how could I do such a thing as sin against God? So he has some bit of. He has this compass inside of him that there's something greater. He wouldn't have said that. And he even told her, he said, you husband's putting me in charge of everything, but I'm not in charge of you and I'm not gonna do that.

[Zach]

Which we didn't get into. Dr. Jackson doesn't get into this portion of the story. But it is interesting, as you were saying, that I was thinking of Joseph's narrative, it follows an ark that is literally the ark of the Bible. It's the ark of Genesis where you have creation, everything is good. So in Joseph's story, he's the favorite son. Everything is good. He's got the coat of many colors. Then you have the fall, Genesis 3, where man falls, they eat from the tree of the garden. And then in the fall in Joseph's story is being sold into slavery. And then obviously the part of the slavery when he's in Egypt under Pharaoh. Then there's the redemption that happens, which is him being put up in the second command of the entire country. And then there's the restoration that happens with the brothers. And so you see. And then there's another one called consummation that comes at the end. But you think about interpreting the Bible through creation, fall, redemption, restoration, consummation, or another word for that is glorification. But you're seeing that in Joseph's story. Joseph's story, really here we see four parts of it. We see the good. Everything's good. He's favorite, favorite Joseph, just like favorite Fred. He gets sold into slavery and then he winds up in Egypt, second in command, which is where a lot of the chunk of this lecture led up into. And I found that to be pretty fascinating where Dr. Jackson really pulls out. The literary repetition of what Joseph is doing and what was done to him is very similar, but it has all these. Has some very small but very important distinctions. By the way, if you want to check that out, go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and you guys can sign up for free and listen to the course. Take it with us. And. And you can kind of hear his points on that. But I don't know, did it, did that. Did that kind of overlay resonate with any of you guys as well?

[John Luke]

Oh, yeah. It was the way.

[Jason]

The way he was correlating, like when the brother showed up and you brought it up earlier with the spies and how he called them spies kind of as a callback to. That's what he used to do to them. And then I thought the birth order when they were eating the dinner, and he set them in the birth order and said that they marveled at him. I thought that was a crazy kind of call. Back to that.

[Zach]

Let's start with the first one. So the first one. Yeah, unpack that again. Because what happened in the first time is that we talked about that he was the spy. And then when they come to Egypt and he realizes who they are, he's like, oh, my gosh, these are my brothers. Like, they realize these are the people that put me into slavery. They don't recognize him yet. And so that's when he makes the accusation.

[Jason]

Yes, that's Genesis 42. 42. I guess we can do eight. Says, although Joseph recognized his brothers, they did not recognize him. And he remembered the dreams that he had had about them many years before. And he said to them, you are spies. You have come to see how vulnerable our land is, how vulnerable our land has become. Yeah. So he's. And then obviously, they end up saying, you know, we've come to buy food. We're not spies. We are honest men. But I wonder if he was thinking about that kind of, you know, how he used to be kind of labeled as that with his brother.

[Zach]

So I don't know if he was, but I think the Holy Spirit certainly was, because I think that plays out where Joseph played the part of the innocent child who was the spy. Now they're playing the part of the innocent child, but they're actually not so innocent, and they're not really spying. But he's accusing them of this. Right. And so they're like, he.

[John Luke]

Spiritual.

[Jason]

He.

[Zach]

They're taking up his position in a weird, ironic way.

[John Luke]

And Dr. Jackson then makes a whole point about how that. From that narrative, it goes into the. All the brothers trading for the one and one trading for all the brothers. And there does seem a pattern. And you wonder about that. I don't know. What do y' all think about this? But, I mean, is Joseph just messing with him? Because it's like all these things are happening, and he's. He's replaying. And look, these. This is happening over months of time. This isn't. Like, this is.

[Zach]

I kind of feel like he. He's like, not making it up on.

[John Luke]

The fly, but I feel like that's what I want.

[Jason]

I feel like in prison for three days, he.

[John Luke]

What?

[Jason]

He put him in prison for three days?

[Zach]

Yeah. I think he's dealing with. I think he's, like, going back.

[John Luke]

Is he, like, going to. Deciding whether he's gonna, like, am I gonna do vengeance or am I not?

[Will]

That's how I took it. Like, he doesn't know what to do. And.

[John Luke]

But because of this socially awkward.

[Will]

He's socially awkward, and he doesn't want. He doesn't want to tell the brothers who he is. He wants them to, like, realize it. And so he, like, he starts with the. Putting it in the order, and then he does the. Like, everything he does gets, like More convoluted. Like, he just starts, like.

[Zach]

Because. Why was that a big deal? Think about it. Why was it a big deal that he put them in order?

[Will]

He put them in order and he's like, oh, they'll know. I know.

[John Luke]

Because they're missing at the end of the caboose down there, right?

[Will]

He's like, subtly trying to get them to guess who he is, but then they don't get it. And so then he does the next thing, which I don't.

[Zach]

You think he left an empty chair down at the end?

[Will]

Oh, for sure.

[John Luke]

And why does he even bring. So is any other brothers back home? Oh, yeah. Oh, well, we happen to have a younger brother. How'd you know that?

[Will]

You know, and then he gets to the point where he's like, oh, I got it. He's like, okay, they're not figuring it out. I got it. I'm gonna hold this one and send one back, and then I'm gonna put the cup in the thing. Like, he's.

[Jason]

What if he left it open? Is he just like, oh, I'll just sit here just for dinner?

[Will]

Yeah, that's totally how. Imagine. Cause at one point, it's. He goes back and he cries, and he comes back in. Like, he's like, I.

[Zach]

He's an emotional.

[Will]

He is. He's like, I just want them to figure this out. I don't want to tell them.

[John Luke]

I always thought this is totally just me projecting, probably watching movies. But if you think, well, how would they not know him? Of course, a lot of years had gone by, number one, and he's obviously grown into a man now. But the other thing is when you see the movies and they depict how the Egyptians were. You know, they shave their heads. They got the eye makeup on. Heavy on the eye makeup. You could see where this guy looks like, you know, Ben Hur. I don't know, one of these Egyptian people. And he would look totally different. So I could see how they would totally not recognize.

[Zach]

Because at this point, you have to keep in mind that God has not revealed himself as Yahweh yet. So there's no. Like, Yahweh, I am. There's no Torah. There's no law. This is pre. All of that. This is just God. He says later in Exodus that. I think I mentioned this in a previous episode to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I revealed myself as God Almighty, but I didn't tell him my name. So at this point, yeah, he could have fully assimilated into Egyptian culture, which.

[John Luke]

I expect he did.

[Zach]

Certainly he was fully assimilated into the culture.

[John Luke]

You know, he was. If he's in the ruling hierarchy, he's second in charge. So in other words, everything Pharaoh looked like he's going to look like, and even all that stint when he was in prison and was interpreting the dreams and wound up before Pharaoh, all that, I think, was immersing him into this culture where when they saw him, they never doubted for a moment that this guy was fully Egyptian. And the Egyptians probably never inquired as to where he came from. I mean, there were people showing up in the kingdom from all over the place. I mean, so he could have been anywhere. So I definitely think that played a role in it. But y' all are right. He wanted them to know he knew something and they couldn't figure out what it was.

[Jason]

Well, it's also possible too, like, you know, like when you tell a lie but you know it's not true, then over the course of years, you end up believing that that was actually what the truth was. So you could just imagine that for 20 years, you know, they have this narrative that Joseph died. That's what they're telling Jacob. Then they actually believe. So they might not even have remembered that Joseph was in Egypt. That's what I'm saying. You convince yourself of the truth. You convince yourself that the lie is actually true and it's not.

[Zach]

That's a good point.

[Will]

Yeah.

[Zach]

When you were talking about the meal, I think this was pointed out that the birth order was like. Obviously he got the birth order right. But if you look at the way that the meal was distributed, eventually when Benjamin was there, Benjamin got five times the portion of.

[Jason]

That's cool.

[Zach]

I think that's two things that I see there. One, this is reminiscent of his position when he was the youngest.

[John Luke]

Benjamin's the new Joseph.

[Zach]

He's the new Joseph. And then two, I think there's something there about the portion of God's favor. God's people. I think the favorites of God are just God's. The people who are the people of God, like God's chosen people, the elect. And yes, the elect are going to have the favor of God on them. They're going to have that five times, which I thought it was interesting. When you go back to the apostle Paul talks about, use that language first for the Jew, then for the Gentile, and then that comes together in a kingdom, you know, a kingdom that the prophet Daniel says can't be shaken nor destroyed when the Son of Man comes. And I think that's what's this is all precursor of that. And at the end of this, I'll make a summation of that, I think will bring that point up. But the restoration that we're going to see here is the catalyst for that, because restoration hasn't happened yet to this moment. There's a lot of back and forth, a lot of Joseph trying to almost pull them, seems to be trying to pull the repentance out of them, to pull the confession out of them. But at this point, they still haven't admitted that Joseph is even in the picture. And they didn't even want to tell him Benjamin was in the picture, much less Joseph.

[John Luke]

Well, didn't you think it was interesting, too, that Jacob, who we went through the whole last podcast talking about having a name change, not being deceiver anymore, and then when it comes down to it, when they've kept Simeon and he sent them all back and he says, you have to bring Benjamin back. You have to bring this youngest one. I need to talk and see him. And Jacob said, why did you even tell him there was a younger brother? In other words, he went back to the old roots. Right. It's like, why did you have to say that? You know, they didn't even know this.

[Zach]

Don't you know how we scheme around here?

[John Luke]

Exactly. Don't you know that's where we are? And so it was really interesting because then when you go back, you realize that out of desperation, they had to go back. They're all starving to death. There's a huge famine. So out of desperation, even our deceit won't work, which is very powerful. So if you want to watch this with us, go to unashamedforhillsdale.com to sign up for this free course. You're gonna love it. We have all enjoyed it, as you can tell, because we're excited about talking about it.

[Zach]

So I'd love al talk a little bit about how we wind up at this place with or Judah kind of does come in and has a moment, but we kind of. There's a lot of back and forth jockeying, you know what I'm saying?

[John Luke]

Yeah, you mentioned that at the end of the last podcast. And, you know, there's always something in every one of these lectures. I don't know about y', all, but, you know, some things I hear, I knew, and then some things made me think, and then some things were like, wow, that's a wow thing. And this is one of those. I never really put the Judah component as strongly into it as Dr. Jackson did, especially. I always wondered it's kind of weird that Genesis 38 is stuck right in the middle of that with the Judah Tamar story. But now I get it. So they had the opportunity. So Benjamin does go back and now it's like, oh no, it's, you know what's going to happen here? And so Dr. Jackson makes the point that they could have been done with him. They could have just all went back home and said, well, they kept him, you know, your favorite sons, the thief.

[Zach]

They could have.

[Jason]

So interesting.

[John Luke]

Yeah, they could have just bought it at face value and said, you know what, he's a thief. He's.

[Zach]

They had a better excuse the second time around than they did the first time.

[John Luke]

The first time because now it's like, well, we don't know what happened to Joseph still alive.

[Zach]

Because they don't. Truthfully, they don't know that it was planted. I mean, they could.

[John Luke]

No, no. They think he took it. Yeah, they really do. And so they had the opportunity then to continue the deceitful way they've done this whole thing and to get rid of the second Joseph like they did the first. And he brings it. I had never thought about this, but instead Judas says no. Judas says, somebody's got to break this curse. And it's very interesting that he becomes all the way through the rest of the history of Israel and then into the line of Jesus, that idea that repentance is what changes things and it's going to change their existence as well. And so he just says no, and he finally just tells Joseph so the truth about everything. Which then leads to this moment where Joseph finally does reveal himself because he.

[Jason]

Saw the cycle was broken.

[John Luke]

Exactly. Yeah. And I had never seen that before. That took the course.

[Will]

I thought that same thing, that that cycle and that Judah, Judah realized what was going on. Maybe not necessarily that Joseph was who he was, but he realized we've been in this situation before and the first time I made the wrong choice. This time I'm going to make a different choice.

[Jason]

And he expanded on that idea because it really is. It's not only that Judah was being self sacrificial and that he was offering himself up to slavery, which he did because Dr. Jackson talked about. He said, so Judah offered himself up to slavery for the love of his father because of how much he truly loved Jacob. Because I think, because probably thinking back to how inconsolable he was after Joseph, but it was also with the notion of knowing that his father loves Benjamin more than him. So you're self sacrificially. Giving yourself up to slavery because of the love you have for your father, yet while knowing he loves his other son more than you, which is like, there's so many nuances there that are fascinating that he really broke down.

[John Luke]

And I couldn't help but think about the Jesus narrative of coming to earth to die for all of humanity because God loved humanity, so much of which Jesus was a part of creating, that he would send a part of himself here to become a human being and to die for. I mean, it spoke straight to me. I was like, that's exactly.

[Zach]

Well, there's a seed here. There's a seed right here in this text with Judah and his repentance and his essentially coming to honesty and a true repentance and confession to Joseph for what happened. And that's the moment, by the way, where there's the restoration. Directly after this is when you have the restoration of the family and the restoration of Jacob's sons. And Jacob. And you do see a beautiful picture, right? And so the significance of this, though, is that this is really the first mention of Judah in the Bible. I mean, the story of Jacob. I'm sorry, the story of the sons and Joseph. And now you see Judah's fully restored. But when you get to the end of the Bible, in Revelation 5, one of my favorite texts in the whole Bible is this scene that John the Revelator is having this image of this scroll that he wants to look inside of that we need to know what's inside this scroll. Because we can't get inside of this scroll, then we're all pretty much doomed. And the problem is in Revelation 5 is that as he's looking around, there's this realization that actually you have to have a certain worthiness to be able to open the scroll. And he looks around, he's like, there's nobody worthy. Nobody is worthy enough to open this scroll. And so he begins to weep out of desperation. Going back to this idea of desperation. So he's weeping out of desperation, which is exactly where these brothers are at. They're in desperation. John on the isle of Patmos is weeping in desperation because no one is able to open the scroll. Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seal and allowed. He saw a mighty angel who says this. And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to even look into it. I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. And one of the elders said to me, I Love this. Weep no more. Behold the lion of the tribe of Judah. Referencing all the way back to this moment. There is going to be a lion that is going to come out of that guy right there. Judah, the one who repented in this moment. Out of his offspring will come a lion, the root of David. So then David's mentioned as well, who has conquered so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals. And then when. The best part of this is that when you get that image in your mind of this lion from the tribe of Judah, the first thing I think of, because I've seen Narnia, is Aslan. And Aslan, you don't mess with that, dude. He shows up, it's going to get scorched earth because the lion is here. You just don't play around with lions because they'll eat you and kill you. So whatever picture that you have in your mind, it should be a picture of sovereignty and power. But when John turns to look at this lion, this is what it says. In between the throne of the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a lamb. Think about that. A lamb standing as though it had been slain. And so he says, look at the lion. But when he turns to look at the lion, he actually sees a lamb that had been slain, but he was standing, so he had resurrected. So you're seeing, like, this full picture of what God's accomplishing in human history. And so the significance of this moment, the significance of Judah, cannot be overestimated, in my opinion.

[John Luke]

Have you seen that perspective picture where you look at it and it looks like a line? Then you turn your head a little bit and it turns out to the lamb. I think about the exact same thing you were doing there. I wanted to read this text in our last few minutes here because it's so powerful. This is Genesis 45:3. Joseph said to his brothers, I am Joseph. He just can't hold it anymore. And he's moved to John Luke's point earlier by this repentant act. That's what moves Joseph to finally say it. And then look at his first question. Is my father still living? Because, you know, they've been doing this cat and mouse back and forth, and he hadn't even been able to ask about the dad. He's acting like he didn't know who they are. But his brothers were not able to answer to him because they were terrified at his presence. Can you imagine this moment? You talk about a moment. All of a sudden, the reveal is here. This is the one we sold into slavery. And now they've had all this back and forth and all this. They have no idea. This is Joseph.

[Zach]

No.

[John Luke]

Joseph says to his brothers, and I love this. Isn't this just exactly what happened with his dad and Esau? Come close to me. When they had done so, he said, I am your brother, Joseph, the one you sold into Egypt. And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you. For two years now, there has been a famine in the land. And for the next five years, there will not be plowing and reaping, But God sent me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on Earth and to save your lives by great deliverance. So the idea was, I was put here to sustain even you. And he realizes this in the moment. I don't think he knew this until the moment he puts it all together. But it's a moment of forgiveness rather than vengeance that changes everything.

[Zach]

Do you guys remember what the call and the purpose of man was in Genesis 1:26?

[John Luke]

Let us make man in our image.

[Zach]

Yeah. And then once he made him, what did he tell him to do?

[John Luke]

Go forth, Be fruitful.

[Zach]

Be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth and fill it. And then. So think about that as we close here and why this matters to the story of Joseph. Because that was what God told man to do. Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth. And then you have in Genesis 9, after he floods the earth, he tells Noah and those guys, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. And then you get to. You get the story of Joseph. Well, then you get to the book of Exodus and listen to the way Exodus starts. It gives all the. The names of the sons of Israel who came to Egypt with Jacob. The story we just told you this. This is how Exodus starts. I love. This is why I want to Exodus next. But.

[John Luke]

But you get to vote.

[Zach]

But you get to vote.

[Will]

Put your votes in.

[Zach]

And then Joseph was already in Egypt because of. You know why? Verse 6. Then Joseph died, and then all of his brothers of that generation. But the people of Israel listen to what they did. They were fruitful and multiplied greatly or increased greatly. They multiplied and grew exceedingly strong so that the land was filled with them. So what you're seeing here is the exact God is like this is happening, okay? They're in Egypt and they're doing the very thing that they were commanded that the humans were commanded to do. And they're filling the earth. They're multiplying and subduing the land. But then what happens is Pharaoh comes in. The death work comes in, says I have to stop the plan of God. Spoiler alert. Pharaoh's dead. He didn't win. He does.

[John Luke]

He wound up on the bottom of the Red Sea.

[Zach]

But that's why I want to do that next. But we are out of time. So, look, guys, we really want you to join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale. You're going to get a lot out of this. Make sure you go to unashamedforhillsdale.com to sign up at no cost to take the classes with us.

[Will]

Yeah, Hillsdale is really cool as an institution. It's a Christian liberal arts school and they do not take any money from the federal government. Zero dollars, which is kind of unusual. And one of the reasons we trust them and trust these courses.

[Zach]

Yeah. Zero. Not one red cent, not a penny.

[John Luke]

True freedom.

[Zach]

True freedom. Yeah. That's why we want to thank any of the sponsors that our donors at Hillsdale, that's who makes these courses possible. They're free. Hillsdale wants to educate America. So, like, we're for people who are actually taking the course on Genesis and hopefully Exodus next. So I'd love you all to join us. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale. Com. And don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.