Ep 1179 | Robertson Teenagers Turn Chaos Into a Family Sport & Obedience That Leads to Life

Summary

Unashamed with the Robertson Family: Episode 1179

"Robertson Teenagers Turn Chaos Into a Family Sport & Obedience That Leads to Life"
Date: October 3, 2025
Guests: Dr. Jackson (Hillsdale College)
Core Topics: Family, Biblical interpretation (Genesis & Exodus), Obedience, Growing in Faith

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, the Robertsons are joined by Dr. Jackson from Hillsdale College for a down-to-earth but deeply insightful discussion centering on the Book of Genesis, Biblical themes of obedience, family dynamics, and how chaos (especially among teenagers) becomes part of growing up Robertson. The crew delves into key scriptural narratives—particularly those concerning Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Joseph, and the Fall—while also drawing rich parallels between parenting and God’s relationship with humanity. The episode brims with good-natured humor, candid stories from the Robertson clan, and meaningful examination of what it means to grow in faith and family.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Coffee Talk and Introducing Dr. Jackson

• The episode opens with playful banter about coffee (00:06–01:36), establishing camaraderie and hinting at the theme of judging (sometimes unfairly) by external standards—a motif picked up later.
• Family rivalry over weight loss and "the fat brother" title lightens the mood (02:26–03:01).
  “I lost, like, a high school cheerleader’s worth of weight.” – Brian (02:30)

2. Transitioning from Genesis to Exodus Study

• The group discusses their journey through Hillsdale’s Genesis course and their enthusiasm for Exodus (04:57–05:56), encouraging listeners to study alongside them.

3. The Poetic Literary Nature of Genesis

• Dr. Jackson explains how Western readers often miss the poetry and subtle narrative techniques in Genesis, especially the nuanced use of “laughter” in the Isaac stories (06:23–08:36).

  "Hebrew prose reads very poetically... They can create an entire narrative off of a single word or image. Isaac's name, Yitzhak, means laughter..." – Dr. Jackson (06:23)

• Discussion of Isaac’s age: Dr. Jackson posits that Isaac was much older than typically depicted during the near-sacrifice, potentially in his 30s or 40s (09:12–11:14), emphasizing his willfulness and drawing a parallel to Christ’s obedience.

4. Biblical Relationships: God-Man, Man-Man, Humanity & Creation

• They dissect the four-fold relationships in Genesis: God-to-man, man-to-God, man-to-man, and man-to-creation (11:57).
• The story of Cain & Abel: Dr. Jackson notes God’s intervention was more about Cain’s heart than the physical sacrifice (12:25–13:27).

5. Joseph’s Story: God’s (Seeming) Absence

• The “absence” of God’s direct speech during much of the Joseph narrative is highlighted; Joseph’s self-restraint and relationship to God become apparent when resisting Potiphar’s wife (13:27–15:00).

  “He gives her the speech… but then he says something really interesting: ‘How could I do such a thing and sin against God?’” – Brian (14:23)

• Dr. Jackson: “God is more absent [in Joseph's story] than he is anywhere else other than at the very end... but God foreknew and allows for all this to happen so I could take care of you.” (15:52–17:00)

6. Priesthood in Genesis and Modern Faith

• Early humans had a priestly role, intended to offer themselves and creation to God (17:21–18:46).

  “A priest is one who offers to God, which is kind of what we’re called to do.” – Dr. Jackson (18:30)

• Typological reading: Seeing Christ as the High Priest is essential for understanding the priestly themes in the Old Testament.

7. The Expulsion from Eden: Mercy, Not Just Judgment

• Adam and Eve’s exile was, at root, an act of mercy, not just wrath (19:14).
• Dr. Jackson offers a fresh perspective: Obedience would eventually have allowed Adam and Eve access to the full knowledge of good and evil (20:56–22:31).

  “That obedience would have been the very thing that prepared them to be able to participate in the knowledge of good and evil.” – Dr. Jackson (21:02)

8. Parallels Between Parenting and God’s Discipline

• The challenges and necessity of letting children experience consequences are humorously shared with Justin’s story of his son Bear wrecking a truck (23:20–25:04).
  "I gave him one thing to do: don't eat our typology!" – Brian (25:05)
• Sin and learning are addressed: growing from mistakes is necessary for developing a mature relationship with God (26:08–28:04).

9. Repentance Over Perfection

• The hosts discuss the power of repentance, with Dr. Jackson citing Saint Simeon's argument: repentance would have brought Adam and Eve further spiritually than never having failed (27:16).
• Dr. Jackson: “Repentance and actually would have outweighed their spiritual learning far more than just that obedience of that one command.” (27:13)

10. Robertson Family Labeling, Forgiveness, and Deflection

• Humorous anecdote: once branded with a “family label,” it sticks for life (29:00); this is tied to Adam and Eve’s own deflection after failing in the garden.

11. Obedience: Designed for Flourishing, Not Just Rule Keeping

• The episode challenges the Western notion of obedience as a burdensome test. True obedience is about communion with God and others rather than mere rule-following (30:36–33:12).

  “The good life is in the presence of God and then with each other.” – Justin (31:19) “The law is good and holy and righteous.” – Brian (33:11)

12. Evolving Relationship With God: From Servant to Friend

• Old and New Testament “law vs. grace” dichotomy is discussed and rejected. The real transition is from a master-slave relationship to friendship with God, an evolution mirrored in parent-child relationships (34:08–39:03).

  “The highest… is to see God as a friend… It is just being in their presence. It’s the Hineni. Here I am.” – Dr. Jackson (34:44) “No longer are you servants, but now you are… now I call you friends.” – Jill (38:57)

13. Parenting: Negotiation, Rewards, and the Long View

• Jill and John Luke share current challenges in raising young children and the temptation to negotiate every act of obedience (35:38–36:19).
• The satisfaction (and amusement) of seeing grown children deal with parenting themselves is evident (36:32–37:05).

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Dr. Jackson on Literary Subtlety: “Hebrew prose reads very poetically... Isaac's name, Yitzhak, means laughter.” (06:23)
• Brian on Family Rivalry: “I lost, like, a high school cheerleader’s worth of weight.” (02:30)
• Dr. Jackson on Parenting and God: “What's the most difficult thing to watch your child do?... they're gonna fail. God, isn't that hard to let him do it?” (22:58)
• Brian on Joseph’s God-Consciousness: “How could I do such a thing and sin against God?” (14:23)
• Dr. Jackson on Obedience in Eden: “That obedience would have been the very thing that prepared them to be able to participate in the knowledge of good and evil.” (21:02)
• Justin outlining Ancestral Mistakes: “I always thought the original sin as we're going to eat the fruit without you around, without your presence… for the sake of the fruit and we're just simply going to disobey.” (26:08)
• Dr. Jackson on Friendship with God: "It's the third relationship that he says is the highest. And that's to see God as a friend... Hineni. Here I am." (34:44)
• Jill quoting Jesus: "No longer are you servants, but now you are... now I call you friends." (38:57)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Coffee, Weight Loss, Family Intro: 00:06–03:14
• Genesis Course & Exodus Preview: 04:57–05:56
• Literary Devices in Genesis: 06:23–08:36
• Isaac’s Age and Christological Parallels: 09:12–11:14
• Relationships in Genesis: 11:57–13:27
• Joseph Narrative—God’s Presence & Lessons: 15:14–17:00
• Priesthood in Humanity: 17:21–19:14
• Expulsion from Eden as Mercy: 19:14–22:31
• Parenting and Divine Discipline: 23:20–25:04
• Repentance vs Perfection: 27:13–28:04
• Forgiveness and Family Labeling: 29:00–29:21
• Obedience and Human Flourishing: 30:36–33:12
• Law, Grace, and Friendship with God: 34:08–39:03
• Parenting Young Kids, Rewards, & Reflections: 35:38–37:05

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Conclusion

This episode offers an engaging blend of laughter, relatable family stories, and rich theological insight. The Robertsons—with expert input from Dr. Jackson—explore how both chaos and obedience, in family and faith, are integral to growth. The invitation to join their ongoing Bible study bridges the gap between ancient Scripture and modern life, encouraging listeners to see both discipline and mercy as ways God draws us into deeper relationship, not just rule-following.

To join their Bible journey: unashamedforhillsdale.com

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Transcript

[Brian]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Justin]

Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. This is our Friday episode, Unashamed with Hillsdale. We have a special guest here today, Dr. Jackson. So, yeah, we. We were at the Latin food coffee place. We got to have breakfast with you this morning.

[Brian]

First time we've met you in person, although we feel like we know you because we watched.

[Dr. Jackson]

Well, I watched you. I was a little. So I am obsessive about being on time.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jackson]

Even though I try to be fashionably late. So. So my fashionably late was. I came in at 8:02.

[Justin]

Well, the truth is I was there by myself at 7:50, and then I'm like, counting down, like, it's 8:01 and nobody's here, which I normally wouldn't worry, but if everybody's two or three minutes late, then I'm thinking, what happened? So then I called Maddie and I was like, are we. Is this breakfast on? He said, yeah, nobody's there. I said, no, it's 8:02. She wasn't only 8:02. I'm like, yeah, but nobody.

[John Luke]

I was at 804. I was, like, rushing. I was like, oh, no, I'm late. When I walked in, I was like, oh, they've been here forever. Like, I'm super late.

[Jill]

Just their cup of coffee.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Justin]

I did have quite a few cups of coffee.

[Jill]

You did.

[Justin]

And you. I always feel weird because I think they have great coffee, but you have a coffee business, so it's kind of, like, weird that I think they have good coffee. Yeah, yeah, it's good.

[Brian]

It's good. Do you judge other coffees by your. By your standard?

[John Luke]

Oh, totally. Oh, I mean, 100%.

[Jill]

Now I judge coffee by John Luke Sanders.

[John Luke]

Oh, a critical judge. If I didn't, like, I wouldn't have even gotten their coffee if I got that. I drink that whole cup, so that tells you it's good enough.

[Brian]

So. So you're from California originally.

[Dr. Jackson]

So I've been. I've been. I've been here in the Midwest longer than I was in California. So I left California age of 26.

[Brian]

Okay.

[Dr. Jackson]

I'm older.

[Brian]

And you went six. You went to college at.

[Dr. Jackson]

So I went to Fresno State.

[Brian]

Okay.

[Dr. Jackson]

For my bachelor's and master's, and then I got my PhD at Purdue, and then I've been at Hillsdale College. This. It was my.

[Brian]

So your whole career, are you a.

[Jill]

Bulldog or a boy make? Which one are you?

[Dr. Jackson]

Depends on which one's doing better.

[Brian]

Just like the dramatic. It can be bought at the Auburn Fan over here.

[Dr. Jackson]

So it was nice to walk in there, and because I've been watching you guys podcast, it was nice to see the face, because then I thought, oh, I sure hope they look the same live as they do.

[Brian]

Was I fat in the. When you saw me, or was that fan.

[John Luke]

That gives you a timeline of how long you've been watching?

[Dr. Jackson]

I think so. Someone else has mentioned that to you?

[Brian]

Oh, yeah. I lost, like, a high school cheerleader's worth of weight.

[Justin]

He was what they called morbidly obese. But now.

[Brian]

What do they call it? Visceral fat. Yeah, it was very visceral.

[Justin]

You said that you make fun of death. We make fun of our former fat selves.

[Brian]

And now I'm not the fat brother anymore. So now there's a jockeying of the fat brother. Well, it turned to Jep, actually, the youngest. And then. And now Jep is losing weight rapidly because Willie will now be the fat brother again, who's John's dad.

[Dr. Jackson]

Sibling rivalry.

[Justin]

We have all the.

[Brian]

Oh, it's here. We got everything but a coat of many colors.

[Justin]

Yeah, this really hit home for us. Have we butchered the. Do you think we. But you watched us. Have we just totally butchered your work? Have you thought these guys have, like.

[Dr. Jackson]

No, I was worried, though.

[Brian]

I just thought, oh, a bunch of rednecks.

[Dr. Jackson]

They're gonna. They're gonna. They're gonna say certain things about my corset. I don't know that I intended that, but. No, I think it's been. I think it's been. I think it's been great. Like I said, I've seen two of your. Two of them now.

[Justin]

Well, we really butchered the last four. So did you. I think. I think we. You know, we did. Well, I think we did a good job with it.

[Dr. Jackson]

I think it's great. I think that's exactly how you. That's how you have to do it.

[Justin]

We've been watching your face on our computers and.

[Dr. Jackson]

Sorry.

[Brian]

No, I've got to tell you right now that the. The thing that locked me into you was we. We watched the preview with Larry Arne, and when he's. The last thing he said was. He said the only thing I would change about this man, he said, brian, he's wonderful. He said all these great things about you. I would do something about that beard. And he says that on the thing. And I was like, ooh, that's our guy.

[Justin]

Yeah, that's our guy.

[Brian]

That's our brand.

[Dr. Jackson]

He would never do it, because then he couldn't call Me, Rasputin anymore.

[Brian]

Because you kind of look like a young uncle. Si. Here. It hit me when you came in because you got the glasses, you got the beard, you. You got the hair back in the skullet. Yeah, I can.

[Dr. Jackson]

I can go with the young.

[Brian]

He's a young uncle's young uncle. Except smart. Except smart. Sorry.

[Justin]

Not as loud. We can hear them yelling next door every time they record next to us, but. Yeah. So if you're not part of this. We just finished up Genesis and a lot of these. I was surprised at how many people have actually subscribed to the course and are taking it with us, which you can get [e-mail]. we just finished up Genesis. We've dec. That we're gonna do Exodus next.

[Dr. Jackson]

Oh, back to back.

[Justin]

Back to back. So we're gonna do Genesis.

[Dr. Jackson]

So just so you know, this is fantastic. And here's why. Because I can go mock all of my colleagues in the politics department. Yes.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jackson]

They're not ready for your federalist paper study. Oh, go on. We gotta get Exodus done. That's great.

[Justin]

I got the Bible.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Well, I mean, the scripture's organized in this way, so we thought, why are we trying to go outside the will of God and we're just gonna keep it Scripture?

[Brian]

Well, the.

[Justin]

Or the will of people.

[Brian]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah.

[Justin]

We heard you speak at Exodus. Actually, we just decided.

[Brian]

Well, we were pushed that hard before we ever asked people.

[John Luke]

We did. It wasn't really asking. We were just. That was just totally a fake ask. We were like, oh, yeah, tell us what you want.

[Brian]

You meant it. John Luke.

[John Luke]

You meant it.

[Brian]

I meant it.

[Jill]

What's up with people on social media, like, let me know in the comments below what I should do. And then you always do probably the.

[John Luke]

Opposite of what you do, whatever it is. Yeah.

[Jill]

What should I wear? It's like, I'm gonna wear the opposite of what everyone tells me.

[Justin]

Yeah, but the Genesis course was. I mean, it was great. I mean, it was great for the audience. Our whole kind of community came into this. If you're listening, we do want you to take the course with us, because I think that's how you get the.

[Brian]

Most out of it.

[Justin]

And for us, it's, like, really sticky because we hear your lecture, and then we come in here and we talk, and then now we get to talk to you in person. So one of the questions we want to ask you is, when you think about Western readers reading the book of Genesis, what do you think is most often missed?

[Dr. Jackson]

The poetry and not just poetry. Hebrew prose reads very poetically, I think, sometimes, you know, if you take the story of Isaac, for example, and here it's not just poetry, but they can create an entire narrative off of a single word or image. So Isaac's name, Yitzhak, means laughter. Okay, go back and read Isaac's story. It begins with Abraham doing what? Laughing. And then the angels come and they're going to tell Abraham, hey, the time's coming. You're going to have a boy. And Sarah hears, and what does she do?

[Justin]

She laughs.

[Dr. Jackson]

She laughs. There it is. Finally, whenever they conceive and they have Isaac speaking of poetry, what does she say? Right. The Lord has made me laughter. Whoever sees me will laugh at me. And there's a question as to, is this positive laughter? Is this a laughter of joy? Is it a laughter of disbelief? I mean, when God goes to Abraham and he says, why did she laugh? Abraham? It's not because God doesn't know, I think. And this goes against the rabbinic and Christian tradition. So let me just say that. But I think Abraham may have some questions about how this is going to be possible, because his whole point is, I've got Ishmael. What are we even messing around anymore? I asked for an heir, I've got an heir. Let's call it a day. So when he asked him, why did she laugh? I think what he means is, you laughed. Why do you think she's laughing? Is this any. Then he asks, is anything beyond God? So even there, I don't think we can pick up oftentimes the way in which Scripture tells its story. And it uses just manifold techniques. I'll say this. I think everyone who takes the course knows I use Robert Alter's translation. He's translated the entirety of the Hebrew Bible. But he also has a book called the Art of Biblical Narrative. I recommend it to everybody. It will show you these various techniques that are being employed in scripture. And not just for the sake of the literary. I do think it's for the sake of the theological and the ethical and the moral and everything else that goes into scripture. Yeah.

[Brian]

One of the things that came up on the pocket when you said that about Abraham, it made me think about it. Cause I thought. I always thought it's almost like a cynical laugh too. Like the idea is like, how would this possibly. Huh? Like we would say like that. Yeah, like a scoff. Do you think? So we talked about their ages and is, where is like 100, if you live to be 150, is 100 years old. Middle aged. It's like our age. Or was he already. Tell me about what you think. Because we talked about on the podcast, you know, because we have a lot of testosterone in this room and a lot of young men and an old man. So.

[Dr. Jackson]

No, because, well, for Abraham, I mean, look, even after Sarah, he has another child with another. All right, so he's okay. But look at what Sarah says when she laughs. She says, shall a woman? Shall a 90 year old give to a birth? And I've lost my woman's flow. Is my husband going to give me pleasure? I think we have a good idea as to what her laugh. But there is actually a word when Ishmael laughs and she kicks him out. That Hebrew word is actually negative laughter. It's a mocking laughter. All the rest of it, it's actually using a verb that's positive until you get to Ishmael and then it's negative. And she says, I want him out. Like get him out of here immediately.

[Jill]

Yeah, speaking of ages, because you talked about this and I've never thought about it, just because everything you see depicted is Isaac as a boy. But you kind of talked about it as potentially isaac being more 30s or 40s or.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah, 36 or 37. And we can figure it out because from the shift of chapter 22 to chapter 23, it says, and Sarah was 136 when she died. And it happens immediately afterwards. So if that happens immediately afterwards, which I don't know that it has to, because in scripture, at least in the Hebrew Bible, when you see things where it says, and after these things, it's just a transition. It's like, oh, we have a new story to tell. Here's how we do. In fact, I have some students in my classes, they like to mock me and irritate me. That's their transitional sentence. And after these things happened, they do it intentionally. They do it intentionally just to irritate me. So if that's the case, then that means he would have been 36 or 37, which then I think alters things immediately. It turns out that we need not be influenced by Carvaggio and rembrandt with the 12 year old Isaac. In some ways, I think it would be far more Christological if there's a willfulness on the part of the son to participate with.

[Jill]

Yeah, because what was the thing that he didn't mention when they were walking up? Was it the knife?

[Dr. Jackson]

No, no, no. He says, I see the wood, I.

[Justin]

See the flame, but where's this answer is joke's on you, buddy.

[Dr. Jackson]

You know, he leaves out the knife because many of us think he knows what's up.

[John Luke]

Yeah, right.

[Justin]

At some point, he knows what's up. I mean, at some point, if he's sitting on the altar. Y.

[John Luke]

Right.

[Dr. Jackson]

I don't think you have to have the Caravaggio where he's looking up those paintings make no sense. Just an absolute horror and terror. And there's maniacal Abraham like this. But if it's just he needs to prepare him as an offering.

[Justin]

Because you had mentioned in Genesis the four relationships of God and man, and then man back to God and then man to man. To man and man, the creation. And you see that same pattern here, even in this. You see Abraham and his heavenly father and then that back to him. But then you also see a pattern of now Isaac trusting his earthly father. And so it's that cascading down.

[Dr. Jackson]

But in the Cain and Abel story, God comes to Cain and he says, right, why is your face fallen? Like, why are you downtrodden? Sin crouches at your tent flap, and for you is its longing. But you'll rule over it. I always like to ask students, like, why didn't God accept his sacrifice?

[Justin]

Sacrifice?

[Dr. Jackson]

And, you know, they'll give me the anthropological reasons, oh, this is still an old God who needs blood. Or, oh, it wasn't the choice of his grain, like it is with Isaac. But God's poem there makes it very clear that I didn't accept it because you have sin. And I don't want to do that. And of course, we know what a sin is. What's a sin? He hates his brother. Jealousy. He's not jealous of his brother because God accepts his sacrifice and not his. This is something that's just simmering. This is pushing him over the top. God reads for him where he is at that at that moment. Then it's beautiful. Where is your brother? He's trying to remind him of that relationship. It's really quite stunning.

[Brian]

So I thought about it with the. You don't deal with it in the course that we took. So we do a lot of. My wife and I do a lot of marriage talks and marriage seminars. And there's a picture in. I think it's Genesis 39 with Joseph when he's in Potiphar's house. And I was talking about this human to human and human to God. And it's really interesting because we only see him so far as the dreamer in the situation with the brothers. And he winds up in this place, and he doesn't Say that much about up to this point about God. And then all of a sudden he's faced with a human to human situation where Mrs. Potiphar, I call her Mrs. P is, you know, he's well built and handsome, he looks like Christian. And so she's like wanting to sleep with him. And he gives her the speech, well, you know, your husband's put me in charge of everything and you know, all this. But then he says something really interesting. How could I do such a thing? And sin against God, that's beautiful. And he just brings that relationship with God. And it's like I had never seen it before this point that obviously this is a very godly person who has this relationship. And he says, that's why I'm not going to do it even beyond what I told you earlier. So I just thought that was strange.

[Dr. Jackson]

I'd not really thought about. I certainly think about the so called absence of God throughout the whole Joseph, which is the longest sustained narrative in Genesis, chapters 37 to 50. It's brilliant. It's a twice told story. But I never thought about that. And of course I have to skip over all of that. That's really beautiful.

[Brian]

Yeah, it's a beautiful picture. And in the context that we talk about it, it's like if we have this relationship with the almighty God that's just going to enhance what we have with one another. If somehow we can see that first.

[Dr. Jackson]

And then just go back to Cain and Abel, right? They're talking about sacrifice or offerings and he says sin is crouching there. Well, Christ answers this in the New Testament like there's a baseline you have to do before you go make your offering. And that's go reconcile yourself to your brother. It's very basic, very simple. I think it's trying to kind of cure what the problem was with Cain. At the very least, you gotta go reconcile. To reconcile yourself to your brother is to reconcile yourself to God.

[John Luke]

I just had a question and go back. You said you think about the absence of God in the Joseph story. Just explain.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah, I mean God's there all throughout. Once you hit the Joseph narrative, he doesn't seem to be. Except you bring that up. I love that. But God is more absent there than he is anywhere else other than at the very end. The beauty of Joseph finally getting to read his dream for his brothers. I just find that to be one of the most just magical moments because remember, he starts everything starts off with this disaster. And I ask my students all the time, like how do you understand when Joseph Says, hey, listen, I dreamed a dream, and I had a sheaf and all yours. And they're like, oh, he's just this punk younger brother, and he's just needling them. He asked them to read, but do you know, he never gives his reading of that until the very end. And at the very end, what are they doing? They're getting grain from him and they're bowing down. And he says, and this is getting back to the presence of God. He says, am I instead of God? You meant it for ill because you misread the whole thing. And Joseph didn't know what was going on. You misread it. But God foreknew and allows for all this to happen so I could take care of you. It was never you being my servants. And I'm your overlord. It's I'm your provider.

[John Luke]

Right.

[Dr. Jackson]

Which as a parent, we often get called overlords. I was like. Like, I'm just trying to provide for you. Just trying to give you a little guidance.

[Brian]

Exactly.

[Justin]

I call that frontal lobe malformation. It's not quite formed yet. I know about malformation, but it's not quite.

[Brian]

Now with your kids, it's malformation. Absolutely.

[Justin]

It might be. Well, I love these stories. You had mentioned that, like, even thinking about our role as priests, I mean, you really do see that in the very beginning of creation that the role of man is a priestly role. You know, I think we miss that a lot in the rest of our podcast. I think that's a theme that we hit on a lot. Because when you get to the New Testament, Peter says that we are a royal priesthood. And it's just interesting to me that I think in modern Western Christianity that we tend to think, no, I'm a Christian. I go into whatever the gathering to receive whatever it is and leave. But you're not just a consumer, really. It's not a consumption.

[Brian]

Our role.

[Justin]

And part of what it means to be human is you are. If you're in Christ, you're a priest for sure. But even in our nature, we were created to have this priestly role. How would you explain the role of a priest? Because if you said that we're priests, I can imagine our audience, they're thinking, the guy with the robe and the white collar. But they're not really. What does that mean, to be a priest?

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah, but a priest is one who offers to God, which is kind of what we're called to do. We also have to remember you and I were talking this morning, you know, to Read typologically, who is the high priest? It's Christ.

[Justin]

Define typologically. Define that.

[Dr. Jackson]

Typologically just means we read things in the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament. We read things through the lens of Christ. So when you ask me, what does it mean to be a priest? Well, I actually have a model for what it means to be a priest. And so that means offering things, but it also means taking care of those. I mean, you have to go through these offerings very carefully and you have to prepare them carefully. You have to do everything with utmost care. Why? Because it's an offering to God.

[Brian]

And you mentioned about them being in essence kicked out of the garden. Out of the many things I learned from you, Justin, one of the things that was eye opening to me was that that that was an act of mercy more than an act of wrath. And I mean that totally flipped the way I've always viewed that passage because I never thought about that idea that it was actually merciful to them and us, you know, as now the children of the children of the children. So that's very powerful.

[Jill]

I never thought about the fact that you mentioned that one day if they would have restrained that they possibly. Or that they would have been able to have eaten from the tree.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah, so just. And I don't know how often it happens in your life, but in academia you have to run into this all the time. You get the local village atheist, idiot.

[Justin]

Well, before you answer that question, let's stop there. Yeah, we're all looking into.

[Dr. Jackson]

No, no, no, no. Just to be clear. Not there. What?

[Justin]

Well, I was just going to recap that story for the audience because not everybody is. Or if you reference these stories. So like, what's happening is the sin was that he said, did you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that I told you not to eat of, for if you eat of it, you will surely die. So they. But he did say you can have any tree from any. All the trees in the garden, they're all yours to eat, except one, don't eat of this tree, because if you eat it you will surely die. And you made the point that at some point they would have gotten to eat of this tree, which I hadn't heard that either. So that was. Explain what you meant by a better setup.

[Jill]

Good job.

[Dr. Jackson]

So it would be an illegit.

[Brian]

Idiot.

[Dr. Jackson]

My timing is just impeccable. I guess if he gave them that command and I asked my students, let's just pretend they would have been allowed. What would be the conditions for their being allowed to eat from that tree. What would that be students like? I don't know. And then finally a student will go, not eating of the tree. Yep. Obey. I desire obedience and not sacrifice. I desire mercy and not sacrifice. That obedience would have been the very thing that prepared them to be able to participate in the knowledge of good and evil. There are two ways of seeing Adam and Eve at their creation. Either a perfection with the fall, or the other way of understanding it is that they were innocent. They're childlike. They're growing in their relationship to God. Well, what would have been one of those final moments of that relationship with God, Knowing good and evil. God isn't afraid that they know good and evil. God's. I shouldn't say afraid, but he's not concerned with their knowledge of good and evil. It's now they'll eat of the tree of life and become gods. And I make the point. Not because he fears a rivalry. I mean.

[Jill]

Yes, you talked about that. Because he didn't feel threatened by them if they would have eaten you.

[Dr. Jackson]

Of course not. I mean, to ask someone to participate in your life, that's a gift. That's an act of love.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jackson]

That's what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. It's a gift. It's not.

[Brian]

But isn't that what we do with our own children?

[Dr. Jackson]

Of course. I mean, some of us do it badly.

[Brian]

Exactly. And we. In other words, we. We know full well that they will have to make their own decisions. And we're trying to prepare them for that moment. And so as they're. I love what you said. It's like the innocence. And we see it when they're so small, like yalls are. And then you see them grow. Now they're grown, you know, and you're like, you've done your work to get them to this place and what's.

[Dr. Jackson]

What's one. And, you know, this was very difficult for me as a father. What's the most difficult thing to watch your child do? And you can see it coming a mile away, crashing and burning. They're gonna fail.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jackson]

God, isn't that hard to let him do it?

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jackson]

But you gotta let him do it right. Okay. Okay.

[Justin]

I'm dealing with that right now.

[Brian]

Yes.

[Justin]

I told my son Bear.

[Brian]

I knew Bear was gonna kill me.

[Justin]

I love under the Bus because he wrecked my truck. And so he can't drive any of.

[Brian]

My vehicles, which his. It's. He and his wife's fault because they named their child After Bear Bryant. This. This is what happens when you do this. It was, it was a talking about a penitential narrative.

[Justin]

It was a.

[Dr. Jackson]

No, it was.

[Jill]

It was an accident.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah.

[Jill]

With another car.

[Justin]

No. Yeah, he was doing donuts in a parking lot. About 17 year old.

[Dr. Jackson]

Better. In your front yard?

[Justin]

Yeah, yeah. He didn't wreck the front yard. So he flipped. He says he hit a rock. And I, I'm like, it's a gravel parking lot. The biggest rock was that big.

[Dr. Jackson]

I'm like.

[Justin]

So he hits a rock that big and it flips the truck? No, I don't think so.

[Jill]

With 35 inch tires.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

Well, it happens. That's all I'm saying.

[Dr. Jackson]

It happens.

[Justin]

Did you do that? You did that? I did that.

[Dr. Jackson]

You guys know all about it.

[Brian]

We're unburdening ourselves.

[John Luke]

I got banned from driving. Driving all around.

[Justin]

Your dad did a while there.

[John Luke]

Oh, yeah.

[Justin]

Well, Bear went out. So then he goes and he. And he's like, I said, you have to buy your own vehicle. And he saves up his money to buy his own vehicle and he buys a 2001 or like an old Lexus, but it was like in really good shape. And he paid like whatever, $4,000 for it. Saved up his money. But then he wants a truck because he's got to have a truck. And so he's. I'm like, well, you need to be like, you need to. This is what. And I'm giving him the advice. I'm like, be patient. If you get a vehicle, go take it down to our local mechanic. I said, have him pressure test it. Stu will take care of you. Make sure it doesn't have any leaks in it. I leave town and come here.

[Brian]

So you gave him one.

[Justin]

I gave him one thing to do.

[Brian]

Don't eat our typology.

[Justin]

And I leave and he calls me and he ended up buying a truck that he found on Marketplace. And I kid you not, he drives it 10 miles down the road and it's overheating and he's. And he's. And the whole thing. And I'm just like. And part of it, like, I was so mad because, like, why didn't you listen to me? But then Jill was like, she made. My wife made the point that you made that, like, no, we gave him enough rope to hang himself. In the context of like, we're overseeing it somewhat, but I think God does that with us. And I think when we get into Exodus too, you're going to see that even in the Exodus story that you'll have that Mount Sinai moment in Exodus 19. But it's all going to be this like, God just gives you enough to realize how inadequate that we are to dine alone without him, which I always thought that was that original. I've always saw the original sin as we're going to eat the fruit without you around, without your presence. We want the fruit for the sake.

[Dr. Jackson]

Of the fruit and we're just simply going to disobey. But if you gave him one commandment, and we want that one commandment to bring them into relationship, know me, so that you can eat of that tree of knowledge of good and evil. Let's, let's become. I mean, isn't it a beautiful thing? You know, I'm older, my kids are older, there are a couple of our one's married, I got grandkids. It's a beautiful thing whenever you see them actually learning from their mistakes.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jackson]

And if you have one thing to grow in that relationship, then after that they now have 613 commandments to follow. Oftentimes we can see that as a burden. God is angry at them. You can't follow. Well, heck, if they can't follow one, what luck do they have getting six, 13 down? But what if it's not that? What if 613 commandments are the very stake at having that relationship with the divine? So there's clearly a scriptural pattern. When God is asking questions. It's not that he doesn't know exactly. It's like, you're going to have to answer for this.

[Brian]

All right, again, like a parent would do.

[Dr. Jackson]

But this is exactly right. So if that's the case and he asked them, then that's a chance for repentance. And so the Saint Simeon, the New Theologian, he makes the argument that they, had they repented, they would have been more far along spiritually than had they not ever eaten that repentance. And again, you can disagree with it all you like, but his point is that repentance and actually would have outweighed their spiritual learning far more than just that obedience of that one command. Now think about it as parents. When have you been proudest of your kid? When they own up to something, right. They mess up and you can ask him a question. You know, I was like, all right, who put the knife in the couch there? Who did this? And you know, it's like that actually.

[Justin]

Happened to me literally. Now Fred took a knife and put it in the couch, by the way, to take this class with us for free at Unashamed for Hills.

[Dr. Jackson]

This is all Going sideways. You guys bring a professor in here. Now we're talking about stabbing cowgirl.

[Justin]

Well, I mean, to hit home. I was like, did you talk to me?

[Brian]

Because literally, no. It's just that every bad illustration we come up with applies to Zach's children. That's. That's where we wind up.

[Justin]

Coined the phrase you've been dashered, which is like, means that my kids have been.

[Brian]

When they come into town, they stay at my house. And so I. I deal with this on a regular basis.

[Justin]

Are you been John Luke?

[Brian]

John Luke.

[John Luke]

I probably.

[Brian]

John Luke's just sneaky. Yeah.

[Justin]

Stab a couch or two.

[John Luke]

No.

[Brian]

You look so innoc. Innocent.

[John Luke]

And yet your kids at Cam. Every time something would happen out in the. Out in the boys village, I didn't have to ask. I knew who. I knew who it was. They said, I got the call. There's someone shot fireworks in the bath house. I'm like, don't even. Just bring him to me.

[Brian]

He got.

[Justin]

This is the part that they struggle with, is the forgiveness part. So John Luke and Al, they don't know how to forgive. So the Robertson family against you. And what they'll do. This is part of what they do. They'll. They'll give you a label. Speaking of giving names to the animals, they'll give you a name, a label, and it's. And they. And it will be your burden to carry for the rest of your life.

[Brian]

And he's half Robertson, by the way.

[Dr. Jackson]

And then every once in a while on a podcast, they sacrifice you.

[Brian]

There's a lot of topology.

[John Luke]

Well, it takes a lot of work to deflect from our own flaws, and that's what it takes.

[Dr. Jackson]

So.

[Justin]

Which is what Eve did, Adam did.

[Brian]

Right.

[Justin]

It's like deflection. Like, I didn't do this.

[Brian]

You know, the woman you made. Yeah.

[Justin]

But the interesting part about the. When you going back to the. Because I think the. The. You got the whole, like, setup for the entire Bible and our entire human story right there in these first three chapters of Genesis because you have the creation, fall, redemption, and restoration. And. And then you have all of that, like, right there in the very beginning of this. And. But I think that we've gotten. I think that the way Western Christianity has often perceived the Fall was that the tree was there simply as almost like a test. Like, it was like a test that God was going to give us to see how loyal we would be to him. And we kind of separated it, honestly, from just the design of God's plan for humanity, which was this is about communion with him first and foremost, and then with each other.

[Dr. Jackson]

And it turns out, I mean, I think the two readings actually line up nicely, because I think if he wants us to obey, but then still would have let us eat, the whole point is, can you obey?

[Justin]

But the obedience that we're called to is not a begrudging obedience. I think that's what it paints a picture. And I grew up thinking that God's obedience for me was like, prove your loyalty. Don't do any of the fun stuff and do all the boring stuff. Do the prayers, go to church, and don't drink and have sex till you get married. And it's like this thing that was actually separated out that I didn't understand that. No, actually the good life is in the presence of God and then with each other, which is that connection vertically with God, but it's also horizontally with each other. Because when it was just Adam and God, and you think, well, all you need is God, well, he looks at that relation and he says, it's not good for man to be the only thing not good.

[Dr. Jackson]

That's the only thing not good, because.

[Justin]

We don't image him when we're alone. And so I think how much of now, I think it's so relevant to where we're at right now in the world, because when you look at all the statistics on mental illness, it's a mental health crisis. We were talking about having. We had Jonathan Haidt on the podcast a while back, who's written a lot on the anxious generation and how anxiety disorders and depression. But it all centers around isolation. And so to be isolated is to not image God, but to be in communion with each other and in community is to image Him. And I think that's where the human flourishing comes from. So the obedience then becomes not, I'm obeying to earn favor with you, God. I'm actually obeying because this is where the good life is at.

[Brian]

Well, I think about it in terms of when Paul said, in Ephesians 6 in the NIV, it says, fathers, do not exasperate your children. And so I've always taken that as a dad. When I was raising my children, I had to set boundaries. I was doing this so that they could flourish, knowing they would fall and make mistakes and learn from those things. But I did that because I wanted to have an adult relationship with my children. I wanted to be able for that to carry on through my whole life. And I would have that like you described in my grandchildren. And so that was why that Was there. And I love what you said about the law, because the law gets a bad rap. It's like, well, we can't keep it. So, you know, and then we look at the cross and we think, you know, Jesus could. And so therefore. But Paul said the law is good and holy and righteous.

[Justin]

And that's a good point.

[Brian]

There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, in other words, it was just opportunity. Yeah, exactly. I love that idea.

[Justin]

The most powerful, most powerful committee in Washington, D.C. you know what it is in Congress?

[Brian]

Ways and Means, the Ways and Means Committee.

[Justin]

And so I've imagined the law. It's the way. So it is the way. Right. So if the problem is that, like, when you get to the Exodus story, the problem is God's on the mountain. Problem is, you can't come up. We can't come up. So what's the way? Well, he gives the law, here's the way up, here's the way. To me, the problem is, it's not that it's bad. It's incomplete. It doesn't give the means. And so the means becomes Christ. His sacrifice becomes the means of how we enter into the presence of God. And I think that's so key because so many Christians will read the Bible and they'll think, Old Testament, that's mean God. New Testament, that's nice God.

[Dr. Jackson]

It's the quid pro quo relationship, a business relationship. If I do things for you, I get things. So the first one's negative. I do these things, I get punished. The next one's positive. If I do these things, I get a reward. And any of us who have kids in school, we just call it carrot or the stick. Right. And this is the point you were making about that presence of God. It's the third relationship that he says is the highest. And that's to see God as a friend. Because none of our friends do we treat as a master slave relationship. None of our friends do. We do just. Only a business relationship. It is just being in their presence. It's the Hineni. Here I am.

[Brian]

That's such a good point.

[Dr. Jackson]

It's really quite beautiful to think through those things in that way.

[Brian]

I love it.

[Justin]

Again, guys, if you're tuning in, you want to take these courses with us? We're finishing up Genesis. We start Exodus, and the very next next week will be an Exodus. Well, we're gonna do an overview of Exodus, and then we're gonna get into Exodus, but you can sign up for the [e-mail] and be a part of this with us. I love what you said there. Again, it points that picture back to the relationship of a child and a parent. And so you do have a deepening of that. And I think the tendency is always to try to pick one of the three. And that's your camp when it's an evolution of a relationship. And so, yeah, at first with my kids, you guys have a bunch of young kids, and right now they're not understanding. No, no. The intention of the relationship.

[Jill]

Last night was a long night.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Did they understand sleep, Chris?

[Jill]

That's what I don't understand. Sleep nor.

[Brian]

No.

[Jill]

Or come here or don't go outside or.

[Justin]

So are you got the quid pro. You guys are like, you do this and then you get. Are you giving rewards and treats?

[John Luke]

My oldest has got the, like, I do this, you do that. My daughter, actually, she rules that she understands fully. If I do this, I get this. And she'll offer. She'll be like, hey, I'll pick up my room if I can get another sucker or another. That's not how it works.

[Jill]

They're such good negotiators that I don't want to teach them to only obey me if you get a lollipop or something.

[Justin]

So that's a nice way of saying they're manipulators. They're good negotiators. I got a few of those in my house, too. Be careful when they grow up that you.

[Dr. Jackson]

That's what I'm saying.

[Jill]

I'm trying to kind of limit the negotiation now.

[Brian]

Well, the beauty of it is when you have grown children like Justin and I do, you. You get to watch it happen back to them because then they have to figure it out.

[Dr. Jackson]

Right.

[Brian]

You're just like my daughter.

[Dr. Jackson]

She's got a two year old and Dimitri's what, eight, nine months? Oh, she had him so close. So she was at church yesterday, and I come walking in, I was like, hey, how's the sleep going? She just looks at me. She's like, he gets up at 7, she's up at 9. It's like, oh, inside I'm just laughing.

[Brian]

I did find a certain amount of joy.

[Justin]

Well, I do think it's interesting that we think about that relationship evolving. But I think the intention. I know my intention with my own children is that at first I'm okay with a begrudging submission when they're 10 years old. I mean, I get it. I'm not like. I mean, it's part of it, but I hope by the time I hope that grows into a trusting submission. And even as a dad now I have one married, and she's on her own, but she will call me for advice, and she will call me. And I have no real authority over her anymore. But I know that she does see my counsel as for her good intention with God. It's interesting because I think we tend to when we sin. It's almost like sin could maybe be defined in either believing that God is not big enough to do what he said he's going to do, or that he doesn't have my best interest at heart. We're going to question either his character or his power. And I think that's kind of the story that we're being invited into. And faith then becomes not that I'm stacking up my works or proving my loyalty, it's I'm actually trusting that God, you have my best interest at heart. And that seems to be the narrative arc of Scripture, that we will eventually not only be priests, but we'll be actually temples. We are temples that house the Holy Spirit.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah. No, I mean, look, this. Kind of call it the negative way, the master slave relationship. My favorite formula for it is it's not desirable, but sometimes it's necessary. I really like that because it means sometimes we have to do it if we want to get to that desirability, you know, that kind of. That highest realm of things.

[Jill]

Well, Jesus says that, doesn't he? He says, no longer are you servants, but now you are. No, I call you friends. Yeah.

[Brian]

And that's the perfect segue, actually, for where we're heading, the next podcast, because we get the family, in essence now in Egypt, and we're going to see this slave relationship and what that looks like. So we're so GLAD you're here, Dr. Dice. Tell our audience how to get to your substack, because I think a lot of them would find it very interesting.

[Dr. Jackson]

Oh, yeah. Oh, thank you so much. So the substack is essentially an extension of all of the Hillsdale College online courses that I do. I can only do five lectures on Genesis.

[Brian]

Yeah, I know.

[Dr. Jackson]

You can't do anything.

[Brian]

I thought that when we took it.

[Dr. Jackson]

I was like, they're so sweeping. Right? Which is why I have to have that. That fourfold paradigm. It helps me out. Exodus. What did they give me on Exodus 8? Wow. They were great.

[Brian]

Generous.

[Dr. Jackson]

And then David, I don't know, six or seven. But, I mean, these are too much. Each one of them. I go chapter, verse, verse by verse, through the entire book, and just do these things and have some fun.

[Justin]

But it took you a year to get through Genesis.

[Dr. Jackson]

A year to get through Genesis? About a year to get through Exodus. I've just started the David story now as well. It's called how do youo Read It? Yeah, It's. I forget. Bibleandliterature.substack.com that would be great. Yeah, I love it. But. But I get lots of people coming from the online courses who, you know, they kind of became. I created it because so many people would email me, and then I became friends. In fact, I just got an email from a friend from the online course. You know, they reach out to me. They want resources and whatnot, and so just kind of a nice way to. To extend that friendship. I'd be able to keep having the conversations and whatnot.

[Brian]

Yeah, we absolutely love the courses, and I'm getting so much good feedback. So next time on the podcast, we're gonna jump into Exodus and get a little overview.

[Justin]

Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little. Choose all notifications to watch every episode.