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Unashamed with the Robertson Family
Ep 1187 | Jase Bets $5 You’re Thinking Too Small About Redemption & A ‘Get Out of Hell Free’ Card
00:57:48
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- [00:02]
A
I am unashamed. What about you?
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B
So we have a little family, not spat, but a little family wager going on between me and Jace.
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C
I was like, the stuff in between is. This is the stuff. One day, Maddie, with this release.
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A
One question. There was no wager. I, I said I'll. Oh, I think I did bet five dollars.
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B
Yeah, it was a five dollar wager.
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C
There's a five dollar wager when we get into it. But speaking of family, I got to mention our good, our old friend Tony Perkins is there. And these guys have been standing in the gap for a whole generation now. And Tony's the lead guy, but they're doing a lot for family, a lot for God in D.C. on our behalf, Capitol Hill. So check these guys out. I'd love it if you'd give them some, some contribution as well. If you can. FRC.org unashamed is where you find them.
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B
But Jason, yeah, we did have a little bit of a wager. J said he asked a question. I'm going to start a stunner. We'll get into it later. But he asked the question.
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A
Oh no, we don't get into it now. You done?
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C
Not yet.
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A
Now you don't poke the Jace bear.
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B
Well, you. When he asked the question, which he'll give in a second, he said, what's the first thing that pops in your.
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C
Mind when you hear the word redemption?
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A
When you hear, when you hear the word redemption. Because based on our last podcast, which.
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C
We just recorded like two minutes ago.
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A
Yeah, I went to Romans 5 and I thought verse 17 was very profound. Found it got lost because I read half the chapter, you know, because it started off saying God demonstrates his love for us in that while we were sinners.
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B
You remember it, Christ died.
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A
Christ died for the ungodly. And it gets to verse 17 and he's comparing the one man Adam and his sin and the results of it and the one man Jesus, and the results of that. And what develops is this. What is the word? The paradigm of life and death, Death and life. And so you're reading it and you think, okay, well, death was reigning because of Adam's sin. And you think he's going to say, and now you see life that Jesus brought, but he actually, he makes the sentence in that those who are in Jesus reign in life. Oh, it is just absolutely.
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B
So the contract, the contrast is twofold. It's one. You would think the contrast would be just clearly Adam versus Christ, but it turns out it's Adam versus us in Christ and then Adam in Death, and then Adam. I mean, and then us in life. And so when you ask the question what the debate or the, The. The thing was, you said, what's the first thing that pops in your mind.
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A
When you hear redemption? When you hear the word redemption was the first thing that pops in your mind. And you said, justification. And then, then you got really weird. You. You then kind of. Even though I don't agree by justification. And then you told me, and then you said, but I don't agree with that. You didn't agree with yourself.
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B
And I was like, well, not. Not what I was. You asked me to say the first thing that popped in my mind, but you didn't ask me what did you. What do you think redemption is? If you would ask me that would. I would have had a longer answer. But when you said it, I just. That's the first thing that popped in my mind. And I think that's what most people would think. And I think I know where you're going to go with this, but you haven't told me yet. And that's.
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A
Well, I bet you $5 that you didn't know where I was going to go with it.
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C
With it.
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B
The bet's been made and I've already told Al.
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A
Okay, so here's what happened.
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C
But before you do say this, though, Jason, let me just throw this in, because redemption is part of redemption. Is that because Ephesians 1:7 says, in him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sin. Thank you. In according with the riches of God's grace.
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A
Al, Al, I'm going to read Ephesians 1:7. Okay, look, we're fixing to read a nugget every passage where the word redemption is used.
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C
Okay.
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A
You want to take a guess on how many there are in the New Testament?
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C
And I'm gonna say about 10.
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A
You are exactly right. It is 10. Are you looking that up?
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C
I'm looking. I'm looking at all 10. I got my computer today. I came for a bear.
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B
That's pretty good.
- [04:48]
A
There's only one. There's. There's only one, I guess, in the Old Testament, which would be Luke 21. 28. And if you want to push back on the Old Testament, I don't think Jesus had died at that point. Correct. Luke 21. And. And it's an interesting one in that. It's in that language about the destruction of the temple in AD 70 in amongst all that imagery.
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C
But even J is the one in Luke 2. 38, because it talked about the redemption of Jerusalem. It's that ide. The.
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A
Yeah, well, that one's not showing up on my. The first one I have is Luke 21:28.
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C
Now, Luke, well, 2:38 says the redemption.
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A
If you. If you throw in redeem, not redemption, you add another five. So that's probably the loop. So it's. You know, when I said 10, I was specifically using the word redemption. But my point was, when I said, what's the first thing that pops to your mind when you hear redemption? We all think like al did. Ephesians 1 was like, well, Jesus died on the cross to redeem us. Now, when you look up the word redemption in the Greek before I read these passages, which I'd like to pronounce it apo lou tro sis. That's the word. What. What's interesting, if you just read the scholarly definitions of. Of that word that I just pronounced ransom in full. Now. Now, that rings a bell, right? Yep. Riddance, purge, covers. And. And the. I'm just reading their definitions here from. What is this Bible hub, Greek lexicon, Christian salvation. So. So you get the idea. I mean, think of that. When he said, I give my life as a ransom, I didn't come to be served, but to serve and give my life. Now, now, that's the. Even though the word for redemption, there's not used. It's the same.
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C
The Greek word is. Yeah.
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A
The same thought processes. And so what I. And look, I didn't read all this in a book. I just read the verses where it's used. But here's what I found interesting. That's why I said the first thing that pops in your head is, okay, would Jesus shed his blood? Like, like Zach said, justification. So when you read the Luke 21, was it 28? Let's read that one. It says. And we're not going to get into the backstory or even context. I told you it was about what we believe is. Now, a lot of people believe this is when Jesus comes back.
- [07:27]
C
But end of time, we think it was the end of Jerusalem.
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A
Either way, that's not our point for this. Save it for another time. 21, 28, Luke. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads because you're redeemed. Redemption is drawing near. Huh. So we're trying to wrap our head around redemption. So that's the. The most odd one. So the first time after Jesus dies in this buried and raised is mentioned in Romans 3 and verse 24. I want to read that one. It's the middle of a sentence. So let's, let's read 22. This righteousness comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There's no difference for all have sinned this famous verse and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely. Which this word free is going to keep popping up because their idea of a ransom, whatever you're thinking modern day, that liberation would happen through, you know, like, like they, they could be, we always just think kidnapped or what, you know, somebody's taken a hostage or. But back in their day, it's like if you lose a war, well you go to prison, you know, and, or.
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C
If you were in debt, you know.
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A
You go to prison, yeah, you got a debt. And so there had to be a ransom paid for you to be free. It wasn't just, just, you know, the.
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B
Way we think of it, a crime.
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A
Yeah, but you're justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Now if you go on, it says God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement or have another or as the one who would turn aside wrath, taking away sin through faith in his blood. So you got that.
- [09:31]
B
So we've been in ministry for a lot of years. We do a lot of ministry with young men. The porn epidemic is absolutely insane right now. Jason, you ever run into that? And these young guys you're mentoring, I would say most.
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A
You know, when we talk about life and struggles, you know, now it's so accessible in with any device and once you're lured in, it's very difficult to get away from.
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B
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- [11:05]
A
So so far Zach's tracking and what his answer was. Right?
- [11:10]
C
Right.
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A
But hang on, let's read them all. That's two. Next time it's used. Al you see where it's used?
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C
Romans 8.
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A
This is where the plot gets a little tricky, Zach. And this is where I was headed because it's not only used, it is used about that blood being offered to free you from your sin. But also Romans 8. 23. Let's read this. It's in the middle of a sentence also. No, 23. Not only. So now he the context. We know that the whole creation has been groaning. And by the way, if. Let me start in 21 because this sets it up a little better that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to. To decay. Look, same kind of language. Liberated freedom and brought into the glorious. Look at this word. Freedom of the children of God. This keeps coming up when you. When redemption is around. Freedom is being mentioned over and over. We know that the whole creation has been growing in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the spirit grown inwardly. Now watch this as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons. The redemption of our bodies. Interesting.
- [12:54]
C
Interesting.
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A
Our bodies are going to be redeemed. Why? How could our bodies be redeemed? Because we have the spirit. We have the first fruits of the spirit. How's that possible? I'm asking you, how is this possible?
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B
How is our bodies redeemed?
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A
How is it possible that our bodies are going to be redeemed?
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B
Well, because Christ's body was resurrected.
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A
Oh, well. But when the first thing that pops in your mind when you hear redemption is you think, would Christ died for my sins? But in this case, the first thing that pops in our mind when it talks about the redemption of our bodies is Jesus's resurrection. So that's my point. It's the word redemption. And look, this is not the only one. Because when you read all 10, oh, this is going to come up again. He's going to link that it's not just a liberation of sin. Yes, because it goes back to that lion and the Lamb. You remember John the Baptist? Behold, the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world. Well, right. He's going to be a sacrificial lamb. But he's also a lion because he was dead, and then he came back from the dead. And even here, it's parallel to the creation somehow being renewed, this new creation. So that's all I was going to make the point. My point is we tend to only think about the cross and the redemption that occurred.
- [14:31]
C
And actually, Jase, in your. In your context of what you were saying, Ephesians 1, which I read earlier, 7, when you get to 14, it gives you the flip side of exactly what you're talking about. So Paul does that in the same context.
- [14:44]
A
You're stealing my thunder. So in Ephesians 1:7, you see, it's the blood that takes away our sins. But when you read Ephesians 1, 14, 13, and 14. Yeah. Oh, it's the resurrection. You see what I mean? I thought it was just interesting. I'm like, you can't. You can't separate Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection when it comes to redemption.
- [15:09]
C
Yeah.
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A
And it makes sense because God not only redeems us, he liberates us from sin, forgives us. He also does it so we can be that way forever.
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C
Well, would it be fair to say then. I mean, and this may be overstating it, but would it be fair to say then that when we surrender to Christ and the Holy Spirit is given us as a deposit, which we mentioned, Ephesians, that that is a redemption point? In other words, we're not just waiting for the res, our resurrected bodies, we're living in redemption now?
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B
Yeah, I think so. I think it's. I think it's the.
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A
Not just no doubt. Yeah, there's no doubt. And that's where I was going with it. But I'm just saying we don't teach this. I've never heard this. I've never even heard this taught. And even it's subtle verses, you don't even realize. And I want to name them all, at least. You know, I skipped over First Corinthians 1:31:30, but it talks about who Christ is. He's our righteousness, he's our sanctification, he's our redemption. But that word, that's a descriptive word.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Yeah. What does that mean? Well, he's redeemed us from a couple of things. At least he's a liberate. The whole point is he came here to set us free. But I want to read Ephesians 4:30 al. Because you don't really think of that one when it says, what? Yeah, four. Yeah.
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C
I had mentioned this one in the last podcast, the first part Grieve the Holy Spirit.
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A
Yeah, don't grieve the Holy Spirit with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Well, that. That's the resurrection context again, right? The redeeming of the bodies. Well, it wouldn't make really any sense if you didn't go down this rabbit hole. What's he talking about? I thought he already redeemed me.
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C
Right.
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A
You see what I mean?
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C
Yeah, I see.
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A
It's a. It's a. Yes, we're redeemed, and, yes, we will be redeemed with. With our. With our bodies resurrected officially.
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B
Well, when we. When we. When we teach about the word redemption or salvation, I think it's good to understand that it is three parts of salvation. It's. You're justified. Yes, that happened, you know, when I put my faith in Christ, I'm being sanctified moment by moment by moment. And then one day I will be glorified, my body will be resurrected, and we'll be freed from the presence of sin. But.
- [17:33]
C
And all three of those words are biblical words.
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B
They're all biblical words, and they're all in there. That's why. But I think what the church has done, and I. I mean, I think the church is just mainly focused on the first one, justification and that I got. I got my get out of hell free card. Okay. I'm not going to hell.
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C
Yeah.
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A
I mean, have I ever heard that before? I'm not laughing. It was get. Oh, I guess get out of jail free. That was a monopoly reference. Oh, get out of Monopoly. What'd you say?
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C
Get out of get out of hell free card. It flowed, though. Very well. Yeah, you did that.
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A
Good job.
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B
That's why. That's what I mean. I think that's how most of us grew up.
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C
And, you know, and then that's why it shuts down, though, so many times for people's act, because they don't. Then they don't talk about reigning and they don't talk about. Then you just talk about trying not to mess up so you won't get back in hell.
- [18:26]
B
But think about the. Think about the contrast to this and chapter five of Romans that Jason started with. It's a free gift of righteousness. We reign in life through the one man, Jesus life. Yeah, but then you got this. Then you got this in the very next chapter. Then after he says all that, he says, don't therefore let. Don't therefore let not sin reign in your mortal body to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members as sin to. As do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness. But. And here's our dominion. Present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law, but under grace. So that is, by the way, the very nature of idolatry is to actually give the things that you're supposed to be exercising dominion over. It's to abdicate that dominion and giving it to the things that have dominion over you. And so what. What Paul's saying here is that in Christ, you're actually. You're supposed to have the dominion. You don't give that away to these idols over here. And that's why when you read on in Romans 6, which we've always taught. What. Think about this. When we've taught Romans 6, what have we always. What has been the emphasis?
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A
Romans 6, baptism.
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C
Yeah.
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B
We've always taught it as, like, this is what you do to get saved. But it's not just about.
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A
I push. I mean, I wouldn't have worded it like that. I would more say it's a reenactment of the death barrel resurrection. But, you know.
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B
Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I think we primarily, at least the way I heard it taught it was primarily about our justification. We're.
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A
We're.
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B
You're coming to Christ in this. We were.
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C
We were crucified with Christ of your sins. You've heard that, which is why I.
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A
Told y', all, I'm totally. When you. When you frame it that way, like, you know, should we do this? Let's go to Romans 6 to try. You've missed the whole point. I think it's more. Well, his question.
- [20:29]
B
That's how I. Well, I'll just speak for me. That's how I read it. And so, like, I always used Romans 6 as a passage to talk about us. That's something that. When I was baptized, I died with Christ. I was buried with him through baptism, in order. Just as Christ was raised from the dead, I was raised to live a new life. But the end of Romans 6 isn't about our justification. Listen to what he says as he goes on. He says, what shall we say then? Or so what then? Are we to sin because we are not under law, but under grace? And Paul says, by no means. Don't you know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or Obedience, which reads, which leads to life. This is like the Bob Dylan song, you got to serve somebody.
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C
Yeah.
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B
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- [23:57]
A
Yeah, agreed. That was a good rabbit hole. All right, can I finish the three verses? So the next one is in Colossians 1:13. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son. He loves. Sounds a lot like Romans 5:17. In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. So it is. Yeah. You know, that is. That is part of it.
- [24:35]
C
Absolutely.
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A
Hebrews 9. Can you believe that?
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C
This is a good. This is a good one for the context of what we're talking about in John 18.
- [24:43]
A
Exactly. That's why we went here. If you're wondering. I thought you were in John 18. We are in John 18, but we have this weird thing happening that we're trying to wrap our head around where the ultimate high priest is being reprimanded by a guy who is a high priest and the system of God and.
- [25:06]
C
Hit in the mouth. And he hit him in the mouth because he was supposed to just think of the.
- [25:12]
A
You just have to take a time out and say, Jesus did this. God did this. This is the creator of the world here in the world, being ridiculed, abused, abused, abused. But he's doing all this because of the verse I want to read after this little rabbit hole.
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B
Don't you think the Hebrew writer is so generous? I mean, think about it. He's just, he's not even. I would be making the case. Dude, look at how corrupt. He's just making the case in the best case scenario, the high priest and does all this stuff, but like he's not even really acknowledging the total corruption of the high priest that actually killed Jesus.
- [25:54]
C
Exactly.
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A
Well, I'm. I'm getting to a verse that will make this sense, make sense of reading Hebrews and, and the situation Jesus was in. But I'm saving. But Hebrews 9, verse 15. Let's see my translation.
- [26:11]
C
12. Is it 12 days?
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A
I think it's 15.
- [26:14]
C
Says it's in 12 as well.
- [26:15]
A
Hebrews 9. 15 he mentions for this. Well, go ahead. I'm not sure where you're getting that.
- [26:23]
C
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves, but he entered the most holy place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.
- [26:33]
A
Yeah, that's a different word because then.
- [26:37]
C
Probably in what you're looking at is different.
- [26:39]
B
He's looking at the Greek.
- [26:40]
A
I'm looking at the Greek.
- [26:41]
C
Well, that's why I'm reading the NIV.
- [26:42]
A
So, yeah, but I'm saying 912 is not in the Greek. You may look it up. Well, just look it up real quick and see what word it is. Just put Hebrews 9:12. Yeah, it's not in the Greek. So they, you know, there you go. In 9:15, it is the Greek. So it says for this reason, Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. You know what's funny, Al, is the word redemption is not even in 15, but in the Greek. Let's see. See which, exactly where it is. It's right in front of for the sins. Yeah. So set them free. So they translated this word. Am I going to be able to say that again? Can I say it one more time maybe? Can you dub in where I said it the first time? That was a joke. Apolutrosis is used right there in Hebrews 9:15, where it says now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sin. So set to set them free. That's the redemption to redeem from the sins committed.
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C
The Greek word in 12 is lutro is the Greek word and it means a ransoming. So it's, it's.
- [28:19]
A
So it's a similar word with the ransom. Okay, but it's not the same. Yeah, it's not the same word.
- [28:25]
B
ESV actually says since the death has occurred that redeems them from the transgression committed under the first covenant.
- [28:31]
C
Yeah, it's. It's that same concept of ransom.
- [28:33]
A
Okay, so, so we get it. But it's. It's sometimes talking about the resurrection time, but. Because what I'm saying is you can't differentiate those two things of freedom. That's why Jesus always said, I came to die and to come back. I'm not only John 10, I'm not only do I choose to give my life, but God's given me authority to take it up again. I just don't try to separate. That is the point. Because the Bible does it. There is a redemption and even that big deal about the bodies, you know. But when I read that Romans 8 al, about we're waiting for the redemption of our bodies to be declared children of God, then it kind of hit me in that moment. Well, what do we need a body for if there's not going to be a new heaven, a new Earth?
- [29:22]
C
Yeah, what do we need a body for exactly?
- [29:25]
A
Because we're all. To Zach's original point, we're all thinking, oh, one day we're going to go off into heaven and leave. And, well, that Romans 8 is pretty powerful. He's like, the creation itself waits to be liberated from its decay. And you too are awaiting the redemption of your bodies through his Holy Spirit.
- [29:47]
C
Which, Jace, that's probably where the. The, in my opinion, false teaching comes from, of a spirit resurrection. You know, that's why Smith fought so hard to train us to understand it is a bodily resurrection.
- [29:58]
A
Oh, it's a bodily resurrection. Luke 24. You know when he's like, look at my hands and my feet. 1 Corinthians 10. I think that's the whole point I was getting to. And I'm. I'm jumping the gun and I wanted to finish strong on this, but I just can't help it. I have to say it. When he said, look at my hands and my feet. Look, you know, what separates our God, among other things, from all other Gods? Our God has scars, you know, when he said, look at my hands and my feet. And that. That was the whole point. When we get to John 18, why you feel so icky is because God decided to enter as a man into this broken world and have all this brokenness and terrible things be done to him so that he could ultimately sympathize.
- [30:44]
C
You're right, James. We have a hard time. We have a hard time with the lamp art. You know, it's just hard for us. And I think the reason why. I thought about. When y' all were talking about the line reference earlier, I thought about first Peter 5, when Peter says, be self controlled and alert our enemy. The devil is like a roaring lion prowling for whom to devour. Well, how do you fight? How do you fight a line? You have to have a line to fight a line. You know, I mean, it's only thing strong enough. So you see how powerful the enemy is, But Jesus is greater.
- [31:13]
A
But.
- [31:13]
C
So we love that part. We love the lion part, but it's hard for us on the lamp part. Because you're right, Jace, he submitted himself to these men, these pompous criminals.
- [31:23]
A
I want. I wish he would have just like, evaporated them.
- [31:26]
C
But when he said, do you.
- [31:27]
A
Do you speak that way?
- [31:28]
C
The high priest? I wanted you to say, I am the high priest. You know, just like, you know, that's.
- [31:32]
A
He chose to do it. And yes, where I was headed with that is because what we didn't read before, because this last point I'm gonna make about the redemption, it's kind of funny. So I can do this now, but we hadn't read the greatest, I think, relation to what, where we're at in John 18 in this conversation with the high priest. Because in Hebrews 4, in verse 15, this is so powerful based on where we're at in John 18. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses. He's pretty well proven that right here at every turn in John 18.
- [32:16]
C
That's right.
- [32:17]
A
And even the people who was supposedly supporting him, just think about the loneliness, the alienation, the denial, the betrayal. We don't have a high priest who's unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet was without sin. He did the God thing at every turn. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. And it's so awesome that he made access to God available because that's what the high priest, that's what his whole job was. He was coming in there and making this place, you know, available for God and people to meet. Right. Well, Jesus became the ultimate.
- [33:12]
C
So, Jase, growing up, I'd say that. How much wild fish have we eaten through the years?
- [33:20]
A
We were raised in the wilderness. You can't spell wilderness without wild. We were wild people because we lived off the creatures of the land.
- [33:29]
C
And this is why. Jason, I am super excited about one of our new sponsors, Wild Alaskan Company. They provide some delicious fish. It's 100% wild caught, not farm. Just like when we fish the River Jays. So there's no antibiotics, no GMOs, no additives, just clean. Real fish shipments are flexible. And Wild Alaskan is delivered right to your door in perfectly portioned six ounce packages, which makes it great for me, be honest.
- [33:57]
B
How good was it?
- [33:58]
C
Oh, it was so good. So, you know, I loved all the fish, but I think my favorite was the coho salmon. It was really, really tasty. We smoked it. Delicious. It is frozen right off the boat to lock in the flavor. Great texture, good stuff, like your Omega threes is there. And here's something really cool. The fish in your combo box varies each month because they only fish for species that are abundant, which we love that if you're not Completely satisfied with your first box. Wild Alaskan company will give you a full refund. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood that you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com unashamed for $35 off your first box of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com unassamed for $35 off your first order.
- [34:46]
B
And the ransom. The ransom is interesting language, right? Because we. If you look at the language in Hebrews 9 about that particular ransom that was paid, he says in that it goes to your point about confidence because I cannot enter into the presence of God with confidence because of my own sin.
- [35:05]
A
For good reason.
- [35:06]
B
Well, for good reason you can't enter.
- [35:08]
A
In confidence in your. Because of your sin or your skin, which goes back to Moses. You know, he's like, look away. I mean, this is dangerous. This is.
- [35:18]
C
Well, so why they tied a rope onto the high priest.
- [35:20]
B
Yeah, so. So when he talks about this, this all goes all the way back to Exodus when Moses would take that blood after and he would just throw in the blood on the people. He was sprinkling the blood on them to cleanse their bodies, basically because of their sin. And so the argument that he makes in Hebrews, he says that if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of defiled persons with ashes of a heifer sanctify the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit. So now you see the Holy Spirit's role in this, offered himself without blemish to God, a pure holy sacrifice. How much more will he purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God? That is Romans 6. That's the point of the whole. I mean, it is cleaning up of the conscience and that blood. I love this, how he talks about this. And it goes to the point of what we're saying about how this whole thing started. Jase, when you talked about redemption, it's not just a one time thing. And you see that in verse 18 of Hebrews 9 he says, Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. So what you see in the blood of Christ is it's an inauguration of the kingdom. The term would be, this is an inaugurated eschatology. But it's not done. Christ is continuing. There is more to come. Yes, it was inaugurated with blood. Yes, we were justified before him. Yes, we are not counted guilty in a court of law. Yes, we're not going to go to hell because of the blood of Jesus. But how much more will we be saved through the sanctification of our minds and our spirits, and as we await on the consummation of the kingdom and glorification.
- [37:12]
C
And I love it because the Hebrew writer gives us the dirty little secret, or not us, but he did it for the Jewish people, that the sins were never taken away. That's the thing. Remember also when you go back and read Exodus and see what happened, not only was that blood sprinkled and all the killing of the animals, but the sin itself was put on the back of a scapegoat, they called it, and then just sent out to wander around. And next year we got to do it all over again. Meaning that your sin's not going anyplace.
- [37:38]
A
Exactly.
- [37:39]
C
Without. Without. Without Christ, without the Messiah.
- [37:42]
A
All right, I have to do this last Greek word for redemption. The tenth verse. This one was the most interesting. And I have to read it because actually, it helped me understand something that I had never figured out. It was, like, a controversial passage. And it comes from this idea of gaining a better resurrection. And people have asked me that before on Q and A, they're like, in Hebrews 11. That's where this. This last usage of this word is. It's like, why would they. What kind of. How can you have a better resurrection? And I've always been confused by this. We missed it. But now that I have the right, now that this Greek word for redemption is in that verse, all of a sudden the verse actually makes sense. And so I want to read this. This was. It was amusing to read. I had to read this about 10 times to figure this out, because I was like, I don't see this word. I was looking for the English word translated redemption, wasn't it?
- [38:48]
C
Yeah.
- [38:48]
A
I was like, what? So it's in Hebrews 11:35. I think you'll find this really interesting. But just to kind of get the context, now we're in this hall of fame. Chapter Hebrews 11. You know, faith being sure of what we hope for, when he goes through all these heroes of the old. So he gets down to verse 32, and he's like, what more shall I say? I don't have time to tell about. And he starts naming Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised, who shut the mouths of lions. So all. All of these threats to all of their lives. And that's why I thought this was fascinating, because it kind of goes in with where we're at in John 18 and what Jesus is doing. Yeah, they Escaped the edge of the sword and whose weakness turned to strength. Yeah. We. Same principles and who became powerful in battle, routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead. So here's where we're at. This is where it's at 11:35, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be redeemed. Now, the English translated to be released. But here's our word. It's. It's. Am I going to try to say this again? Apollo Trosis.
- [40:16]
B
So atrocious.
- [40:17]
A
Yeah, there you go. They refused. They refused to be ransom. Which. Look, you remember the stories, though. Wow. How would they get released that all they'd have to say is deny their faith. They'd let them go. And I think that's the point, because then it makes sense.
- [40:37]
C
Yeah.
- [40:37]
A
They refuse to be redeemed on Earth so that they would gain a better resurrection, a better redemption. See, it uses resurrection and redemption synonymous. But one is, in the earthly sense of just getting out of prison. It makes perfect sense now.
- [40:57]
C
Yeah.
- [40:57]
B
My translation says that they would rise again to a better life, which is probably a better way of seeing it. Yeah, it's like this is. Yeah, this is about. But again, what is that? That's this. Inaugurated eschatology. That's this. Not yet. Now.
- [41:11]
A
Kingdom.
- [41:11]
C
Ye.
- [41:11]
A
And so what did you call it? Inaugurated.
- [41:14]
B
Inaugurated. Like, think about. We went.
- [41:16]
A
No, inaugurated. What was the next word?
- [41:19]
B
Eschatology.
- [41:20]
A
Oh, my goodness. Let me just. Hold on. Let me just. Give me one second. Inaugurated.
- [41:25]
B
Inaugurated.
- [41:26]
A
Inaugurated.
- [41:27]
B
Trump was a truck. Trump was inaugurated.
- [41:30]
A
Oh, I get what the word means. I'm just inaugurated. Now, to pair that with eschatology, which is the end or the future.
- [41:39]
B
So would it be the future?
- [41:41]
A
How do we sum that word up simplistically? Future happenings.
- [41:46]
B
Yeah. What's. Yeah. Where's all this headed? Where's all this headed?
- [41:48]
A
Inaugurated. So Jesus by his death barrel. Resurrection.
- [41:55]
C
Process.
- [41:56]
B
The kingdom.
- [41:57]
A
Yeah. Okay. Why don't you just say that? I mean, you talking about a mind bender. I'm like, Zach's like this whole idea. Well, you can't keep talking after you say that. You. You need to pause 5 seconds and let everybody say, wow, let the wheels. Now.
- [42:13]
C
I like it.
- [42:14]
A
Let me. Now that I've thought about it, I like it.
- [42:17]
C
Jace was like your computer. He's that little spinning. There was a spinning in Jay's mind. We were watching.
- [42:23]
B
But how much of our issues in.
- [42:25]
A
In.
- [42:26]
B
In the Bible that we come. The issues we deal with, how much of it is related to the fact that we're trying to pick a. Either or we're trying to say either now or later. And we're like, it's like the candy. It's now and later. Like it's. Yeah, like it's now and later. Like once you understand that it's now and it's later, like that and that that's not a bad thing. That's a good thing. And, and I think which was illustrated.
- [42:47]
C
By what Jay's just read. He was reading about all these Old Testament people. Yeah, but that meant something then, but it sure means something now. Well, because based on what you.
- [42:56]
B
If you have a view of, of. Of the kingdom, that it's all here, it's already all here. And there are people that believe that we've actually had people. And they're very vocal. They have made that point on some of the comments that they, I mean they're, they're even going as far as to say that the, the Christ isn't coming back. Like he's our. That's already happened. And so that would be a view that the kingdom is fully here. Well, the problem that you get with that is you get these things. You get like Hebrews 11. How do you deal with that? I mean, like, this is like these guys were like, this is post Christ. These guys were martyred for the faith.
- [43:31]
C
Which takes you to the other two elements. Jace, beyond. You've been stressed and we should be. We've been stressing on the cross and the resurrection. But what about the ascension and the promise of return?
- [43:42]
A
I mean, Al, that's where I was going with it. We started this whole chapter off talking about, you know, I got a mansion in heaven, you know, and I don't know if you read the comments on all that. I don't even want to know. But look, here's my point is when I made that point about who the.
- [43:56]
C
Other shame nation thought won that argument.
- [43:59]
A
I made that point about, oh, people like heaven's expensive streets of gold. All this heaven was expensive and is expensive because Jesus had to die in order to enter there on, on our behalf. It shows you the cost. And that's my whole point for going down this rabbit hole. Jesus went through all this to show us the cost.
- [44:22]
C
Yeah.
- [44:23]
A
Of. Of what, what it took to redeem us. And he decided to do this and have be insulted and persecuted and ridiculed by a guy claiming to be the high priest of God. And Jesus is sitting there not even saying, oh, you think you're a high priest now? He did do that with Pilate when he said, oh, you think you're a king. Remember what he said? He's like, well, the only reason you are is because God's given you that. Well, now all of a sudden, I wish he'd have said this to this high priest. Same comment, which he kind of does, you know.
- [44:58]
C
Yeah, Jason got there the rough chews and some of the rough greens product there on the table. Our good friend Dr. Dennis Black is the one who founded Rough Greens. He's got a new book out. It's called A Natural Path to Pet Health. How to save thousands on Pet food and vet bills. And I love the, the book because he talks a lot about, you know, just the need and diet in both dogs and cats. Very interesting read. So, Jace, I like to give my dogs the rough greens and they literally line up in front of the porch when it's time for rough greens. They love it. Dr. Black has spent decades helping pets live happier, healthier lives. And now he's sharing his best kept secrets all in one place. In this book you'll find over 35 recipes, plus natural tips for digestive, joint and skin health. You'll also find practical tricks that can add years to your pet's life, all while saving you money. So here's what you do. Go to ruff greens.com get a free jumpstart trial bag for your dog or cat. You just cover the shipping, use the discount code book. Then click on the book tab after checkout. It'll take you straight to Amazon where you can get his new book, A Natural Path to Pet Health. Go to rough greens.com, use the discount code book and fetch your free Jumpstart trial bag. And then get a great resource book, A Natural Path to pet health by Dr. Dennis Black.
- [46:31]
A
But Jesus, look, he took the God road at every path and he spoke truth. He's like, he was trying to.
- [46:43]
C
You.
- [46:43]
A
Know, just appeal to their, their common decency and fairness, but they just would, they'd have none of it. He's like, I've spoken. I've lived my life out loud. Everything I've spoken. If you have a problem with it, just bring it to my attention. And we're going to read the exact passages. And what did they do? They reached over there and hit him.
- [47:02]
C
Hit him in the mouth.
- [47:03]
A
Yeah, hit him in the mouth. For speaking truth, for representing God qualities. And so by this he is able to sympathize with our weaknesses. But I think you're really seeing the cost of this. And one day you see the appeal of this because you realize that our God, he is able to sympathize. He did the most crazy thing you would ever think. God became a man and, and crawled around. It would be the equivalent of me, you know, becoming a roach and crawling around with the roaches to save the roaches, you know, and that's why none.
- [47:38]
C
Of us have it, to be anybody's high priest. There's only one. None of us have that. And the. These people should have been the best servants. Instead, they were power mongers. You, you said it in the last podcast. It was all about power. But Jesus is all about empowerment. It's just the opposite.
- [47:55]
B
It's.
- [47:55]
C
It's the exact.
- [47:56]
B
I mean, he doesn't actually, I think once you get in your crawl, that he doesn't need us to no worship him. It'll be for him to be God. He doesn't need us. I mean, I think that's a big understanding. Like, and I think some of our theology, sometimes I hear them and I'm like, the way you're presenting God makes him seem so needy. Yeah, he doesn't need us. Like, he doesn't need me to do anything. And the scripture's clear on that because the Bible says he's not served by human hands as if he needed anything.
- [48:25]
A
That's Acts 17.
- [48:26]
B
So I think that when, when you think that, why did he die? Well, I mean, that's the thing that Jay said, that he did it to prove or to show. But that's the Romans language. He demonstrates. I think the NIV says he demonstrates his own love for us in this. Or my translation says that. But God shows his love for us in this, that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And so he is showing us in this. For if we. And this is connected to wrath, it is because it says, since therefore we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God? But a big, big part of this, I think, just gets left out a lot, is the fact that God is doing some type of demonstration of his love in the very act of the cross and what he's going through so that we can now approach him with full confidence, so that our conscience can be clean, so that we're not enemies in our mind. And that's repeated in scripture. Now, now, I won't go as far as to say that we aren't true enemies, because some people say that. I know you're an enemy in your mind. I'm a legitimate enemy. The reason why I'm an enemy in my mind is because I'm a real enemy of God. And so he does both. It's not one or the other. And I think when we get to atonement theory, when you're talking about the atonement of Christ, that Christ paid for sin, he pays for your sin because there is a real infraction and there's a real payment for that. And it's a payment in the form of a substitution in that Christ took on that penalty of death for us. But it is also, and this is the part I think we often leave out, it is to clean my conscience before him. It is so that I can. I can go to proof of it.
- [50:10]
A
It's proof of love and proof of life, you know, because when someone you know is kidnapped or like, oh, I need proof of life, you know, because if they die, you're like, well, that ended.
- [50:21]
C
I'm not paying a ransom.
- [50:22]
A
Yeah, well, in this context, with the same. Same words.
- [50:26]
B
Yeah.
- [50:26]
A
It's like, oh, well, we have proof of life now three days later. But you also don't want to miss the fact that it's proof of love. Miss the greatest, greatest love act that you could conceive.
- [50:39]
C
I love what Lisa said Sunday. And she says this when we tell our story. She said she was laying in the backyard. She said for the first time in her life, she said, I told the truth. I never just told the truth out loud. She told to me, but it was also to God. And finally, we call it truth vomit. It just comes out. And then she goes out and she lays down in the backyard. And she said, if I could dig a hole, I'd dig it. I would have gotten lower. The ground wasn't low enough for where I was. And she cries out to God and says, I don't even know if you're real. I don't even know what I believe. But I know I need to be rescued. I know I need to be ransomed, to use this word.
- [51:15]
B
Has she said that before about the ground not being low enough?
- [51:17]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She said.
- [51:19]
A
She.
- [51:19]
C
This is. This is how she views it. And then she said, and he did it like she said. And he came and she. And I love what she said. He didn't wait for me to clean myself up. He came to me. And I knew that point going forward, I was changed and I was different. And she was like, now. I didn't know. I still didn't trust her. I mean, months went by before I knew that that had really happened, but it really happened.
- [51:43]
B
Well, she didn't think about this. I Mean her statement, the ground's not low enough for me. I need to go under the ground. That's actually, that was true.
- [51:50]
C
Yeah.
- [51:51]
B
And that's what she did very soon, that she was buried with Christ in baptism.
- [51:55]
C
And then she mentions that as well.
- [51:56]
B
Like when she said that, I was thought, that's interesting how the devil tells you a lie. But sometimes it's like that con, that. I think that was a conviction from, from the Holy Spirit. It's like, you got to die.
- [52:06]
C
But it was true, Chase. It was back to what you said a minute ago. The only way, the only way love can prevail is if we do it with truth. If we, if we're just honest and say, I, I'm a mess. This is, you know, this is it, this. And that's why these people had no love, because they didn't really care about the people.
- [52:24]
B
Oh, think about, think about this though. If you go back to Peter's point about baptism, the reason why baptism is so important and what it represents is because when you come to the realization the truth, when you get to the final truth, it's like, oh man, the ground's not low enough for me. I got to go under the ground. I got to be, I got to die.
- [52:45]
C
I got to be buried.
- [52:46]
B
The only way you can appeal to God for a good conscience. The only way because. Because it says in First Peter that, that it's an, it's an appeal to God for a good conscience or it's a pledge of a good conscience towards God, depending on what translation you read. But think about that. I cannot go to this holy God with what I've done and what I've thought and what I've entertained. That's the problem. My conscience isn't clear. It isn't clean. Well, how in the world could I ever come to him with a clean conscience? The only way that I could do that is if this person died or that person dies and then a new creation comes. It's covered in Christ. Now the reason why I can go before God with a clean conscience. I still don't feel like I'm good enough. But now my appeal to God is not. Hey, look at how great I am now. Actually, the reason why I can come into the covenant relationship with him with a clean conscience is because it's a one way covenant. He made the covenant, he died, he took on the penalty. I'm hidden with Christ. And so that's why my conscience is super clean when I go in there is because it's him.
- [53:56]
C
So Jason you got two minutes to wrap this rabbit hole up.
- [53:58]
A
Well, Zach just quoted the verse before Hebrews 9:15. Hebrews 9:14. How much more then will the blood of Christ? And he was talking about in comparison to the law and the rituals and the sacrifices that were given, he's like, how much more will the blood of Christ, who, through the eternal spirit. There's your little side reference to the resurrection, also offered himself, unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, or it says useless rituals so that we may serve the living God. And that takes me back to Romans 8, when he talked about the redemption of our bodies, but before he talked about that in Romans 8. 3. Just listen to this. Let me read the first four verses. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do, in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of flesh or sinful man to be a sin offering, he offered himself. And so here's the key verse. He condemned sin in sinful man or the flesh in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us who do not live according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. And my point is, the law exposed sin. You know, under the whole. It exposed it. We can't keep it because we're weak humans. And we're always just like Adam with the one. He had one command, just one. He broke it, and then it was exposed. And then Jesus condemned the sin itself. So I think that's an interesting way to look at it. And then he did it forever because of the resurrection. It's true redemption, true freedom, and so good.
- [56:11]
C
I'm glad we're sort of, as we're describing, these settings, showing what. What. What they mean in the big picture, because it's important when you read the crucifixion story to understand what. How powerful it really is. So we'll. We'll pick it up here. John 18 Next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.