Ep 1189 | Christian Huff Opens Up About Being the Father of Three Now & Why Did God Choose Moses?

Summary

Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Host: Tread Lively
Episode: 1189 – Christian Huff Opens Up About Being the Father of Three Now & Why Did God Choose Moses?
Date: October 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Unashamed crew—Zach, Christian, Mary Kate, and Sam—dive deep into Exodus 3, focusing on Moses’ burning bush encounter and God’s choice to use Moses for a rescue mission. The conversation weaves together humor, personal anecdotes, theological insights, and reflections on leadership, calling, and the character of God. Christian Huff also shares personal thoughts about fatherhood and the dynamics of family faith, setting the stage for relatable discussions well beyond biblical exposition.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family and Faith Updates

• Conferences and Community:
  The group recaps recent family events, including Sadie’s conference and Duck Commander Sunday. Both events brought hundreds to thousands to West Monroe, resulting in mass baptisms and a surge of spiritual activity (02:02–03:09).
• Generational Worship:
  Touching moments as children and grandchildren participate in worship, prompting reflections on faith transmission:
  • "It was so touching to see them at that age...expressing worship to God. As a grandpa, you get that extra feels." – Christian (04:08–04:49)

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2. The Burning Bush (Exodus 3)

The Encounter & God’s Name

• A First-Time Revelation:
  The group observes that Exodus 3 is the first time God explicitly reveals his name—Yahweh—to Moses (05:12–05:56).
• Temple and Presence Motif:
  Zach draws a connection between "mountain moments" in scripture and the concept of temples—places where God and humanity meet. He notes that God reveals himself on elevated places, symbolically connecting heaven and earth (06:15–07:33).

The Symbolism of Fire

• Purity vs. Judgment:
  The fire that doesn't consume the bush sparks discussion:
  • "Fire is often a symbol of purity, but it can also mean judgment. Why did God use fire for this encounter?" – Christian (09:24)
  • "God’s described as an all-consuming fire in Hebrews. The bush, though, is not consumed." – Zach (09:46)
  • "The burning bush shows God's power and protection—He can burn, but He chooses not to." – Mary Kate (12:46)
• God’s Self-Sufficiency:
  • "The nature of God is self-generating. He doesn't need the bush to burn." – Zach (10:41–10:51)
  • The burning bush as a display of God’s control over nature and as an invitation to holiness (take off your sandals, this is holy ground).

Moses’ Transformation

• From Insecurity to Leadership:
  Moses begins full of self-doubt and reluctance, making multiple excuses to avoid God’s calling.
  • "Moses, like, all right, you got me. You can do...I just simply don’t want to go." – Mary Kate (18:30)
• Comparison to Other Biblical Figures:
  Sam compares Moses’ reluctance and unique background to Saul/Paul, noting that God often calls unlikely candidates who have the precise experience needed for their mission (25:09–26:46).
  • "When you zoom out, it makes sense why God would call him—he knows Egyptian tradition, the language, all those things." – Sam (26:14)

The Main Character is God

• Divine Initiative:
  • "God is the main character of the story…God’s movement isn’t dependent on us; the question is, are you moving with Him?" – Zach (30:45)
• Manifest Presence:
  Discussion on the meaning behind God’s name “I AM”, including Dr. Jackson’s nuance—"I will be there, howsoever I will be there," indicating God’s ongoing, manifest presence (32:09–32:58).
  • “His name isn’t just self-referential—it’s all about God being present with us.” – Zach (32:58–34:05)

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3. Moses’ Reluctance & God’s Provisions

• Excuses Galore:
  Moses resists the call, listing reasons why he’s not fit—speech impediment, lack of authority, and more (18:28–19:52).
  • "Moses tries to do everything he can to get out of doing what God is telling him."
• Shame and Fear:
  Sam brings up Moses’ past sin (killing the Egyptian) and notes that while the text doesn’t emphasize Moses’ shame, personal experience suggests that shame often holds people back from stepping into God’s calling (19:11–19:52).
• God’s Preparation:
  Mary Kate notes that while Moses is making excuses, God already has Aaron on the way—a reminder that God arranges supporting characters and practical help ahead of time (35:21–36:41).
  • "Aaron was already on the way—God was already working it out." – Mary Kate

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4. God’s Power: The Hand and the Staff

• Typology of the Hand:
  • "I will stretch out my hand..." becomes a recurring motif. Moses’ hand, when obedient to God, becomes more powerful than Pharaoh’s (39:38–40:19).
  • Sam: "A stuttering man’s hand is more powerful than Pharaoh’s hand."
• The Staff as a Vehicle of Power:
  Zach connects Moses’ shepherd’s staff as a symbol transformed by God—like other ordinary things imbued with extraordinary purpose once God’s presence is involved (41:07–43:36).
  • "It’s just wood until His presence turns it into the staff of God." – Zach (43:23)

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5. Pharaoh’s Hardened Heart

• Theological Implications:
  Debating whether Pharaoh hardens his own heart or God hardens it, the group references both scriptural language and Dr. Jackson’s explanation (45:03–48:41).
  • "Pharaoh had a choice every step of the way to relent and repent, and he just would not do it." – Christian (47:47)
  • Zach: God strengthens Pharaoh’s existing resolve, using Pharaoh’s recalcitrance for a greater story that will endure for generations (47:21–47:47).
• Spiritual Warfare:
  The group agrees that real spiritual forces are afoot in Egypt, referencing the magicians’ powers and Old Testament allusions to territorial spirits (49:11–50:14).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On God’s Holiness and Moses’ Reluctance:
  "The more you’re in Me, the more you’re near this fire… the more confident you’re going to become. We watch that process happen through Exodus." – Christian (11:00–12:46)
• On God’s Unorthodox Choices:
  "God's always choosing the guy you don't think he should choose." – Zach (21:27)
• On Divine Presence:
  "His name isn’t just self-referential—it’s all about God being present with us." – Zach (32:58)
• On God’s Prearranged Provision:
  "Aaron was already on the way—God was already working it out…Moses, through complaining, made God ruin the surprise." – Mary Kate (35:20–36:41)
• On Leadership and Divine Readiness:
  "If you think you’re a leader and you look around and nobody’s following you, you’re not a leader... Now you’re ready." – Christian (26:14–26:46)
• On Pharaoh’s Heart:
  "He claimed to be a god, and so it was a battle of gods now. And there’s only one." – Christian (48:41)
• On Spiritual Conflict:
  "I definitely think there's something going on here. The magicians, they were actually doing stuff… you got some power going on on both sides." – Mary Kate (49:11)
• On God Working Regardless:
  "God’s moving whether you’re part of it or not. The question is are you going to move with Him?" – Zach (30:45)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:02] Family conferences, Duck Commander Sunday, mass baptisms
• [05:12] Burning bush: God reveals his name to Moses
• [06:15] Temple motif and the importance of mountain encounters
• [09:24] The symbolism of the burning bush and God’s fire
• [12:46] God’s protection and control in the burning bush scene
• [18:21] Moses’ self-doubt and initial resistance to God’s call
• [25:09–26:46] Moses’ unique background and comparison to Paul
• [30:45] God as the main character; our response to His movement
• [32:09] The deeper meaning of God’s name: “I will be there”
• [35:20] God’s prearranged provision through Aaron
• [39:38] The motif of God’s “hand” in Exodus
• [41:07–43:36] The transformation of Moses’ staff
• [45:03–48:41] The debate around Pharaoh’s heart
• [49:11] Evidence of spiritual forces at work in Egypt

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Tone and Style

The discussion is informal, humorous, and earnest—full of the Robertsons’ signature down-to-earth banter blended with sincere scriptural study. Anecdotes and cultural references ensure the conversation is relatable for listeners from all backgrounds, whether seasoned Christians or those new to the Bible.

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Final Notes

This episode models how biblical stories can spark profound, relevant conversation about calling, divine presence, and obedience. The Robertsons challenge listeners to glimpse themselves in Moses’ hesitancy, God’s sovereign initiative, and the strange ways ordinary life intersects with the extraordinary plans of God.

For full engagement, listeners are encouraged to take the free online Exodus course with Hillsdale College, referenced multiple times throughout the episode.

Transcript

[Zach]

I am unashamed. What about you? I feel like the. There's a pre podcast that at some point in the future, when we're just ready to burn it all down, we'll release what happens before we actually start the podcast.

[Christian]

So.

[Zach]

Yeah, I got one.

[Christian]

Might do it.

[Zach]

Christian starts immediately sending out memes.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Christian]

That's what he does.

[Sam]

I love only communicating in memes.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Sam]

A skill. It's an art. You have to know exactly what to send.

[Zach]

That was a good one. It was because we were talking about. I. I. I'll simmer on a topic, and then as I simmer on it, like, it. It'll. It'll fester up into like. Like a random. What you call outburst. What you call it.

[Sam]

Yeah. Topic or a person.

[Mary Kate]

Fester is a good word for what we just witness. Fester come.

[Zach]

I just. Well, a thought comes to me. I just say it. So then he sends the meme out of me sleeping. Some. Some character, like a squirrel sleeping.

[Sam]

It was sandy cheeks from sp.

[Zach]

Drooling sleep. And then like, boom, Open, like.

[Christian]

Oh, I just.

[Sam]

She's supposed to be hibernating, but something happen.

[Christian]

Two hours.

[Zach]

Oh, my goodness. But we're in the book of exes. I just have a lot of opinions on all this because I've been studying it, so I could be wrong.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

But I doubt it. From Uncle Phil.

[Christian]

That started with J. Yeah. Started with the shirt.

[Zach]

Well, how are you guys liking Exodus so far? We've. Second week into it.

[Sam]

I'm loving it.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah, no, it's great. It just keeps getting better. Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts, especially about this section that we're about to. We're about to say, so I'll just save it. I like it. Ready to get into the conversation.

[Christian]

Don't force his hand.

[Mary Kate]

I like a racehorse.

[Sam]

Burning bush today. There's so much stuff to talk about. The burning bush.

[Zach]

There's some good stuff. We just got done.

[Christian]

We're all.

[Zach]

I. It's this perfect timing. I came in town because Sadie had a big conference, live, original conference, which is awesome, by the way. And we're just kind of coming off of that. Are you guys. Are you exhausted? Because you were.

[Sam]

Yeah, I'm pretty worn out.

[Zach]

That's a lot.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Lots of baptisms.

[Sam]

Lots of baptisms, which are incredible.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Sam]

Yeah. Then, you know, hosting people and, you know, so doing. Doing all that stuff, plus putting on the conference and then say we, you know, kids only a month old, so not sleeping at night. So there's a couple of. To hodgepodge of things that have kind of festered into exhaustion.

[Christian]

And the ironic thing was is that Bella decided. I guess it was. Bella decided to do Duck Commander Sunday like the weekend before y' all had.

[Zach]

Like eight days of just.

[Christian]

I mean like.

[Mary Kate]

Because there was two weeks there were.

[Christian]

Like three 500 or whatever at. At Yalls event and then there were probably 2500 here just the weekend before.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Again, more mass baptisms. Which is awesome. So it's like these first century things and. But you know like we're having them now seemingly every weekend and which is.

[Zach]

It is city of West Monroe and Monroe. Thank you. Thanks. Because I know that it's got to be a good shot in the arm for the economy because every restaurant I went into over the last few days was filled up with 18 to 25 year old or whatever.

[Sam]

The mayor Stacy was very appreciative.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Zach]

I mean it was a. It was quite the scene. Yeah.

[Christian]

She actually came to Sunday and got up and made a little spill about the city and their appreciation for the family which was really great because you know like. I mean. And I went to school with her, you know with Stacy whenever.

[Zach]

The mayor.

[Christian]

Yes. Is the mayor. You know, you know when I. The mayor now is somebody you went to school with with, you know of your town and. But she. She said some really nice things about what we try to do with the community to continue it. And I love it that we had a festival. Well I had a whole weekend full of events for that and like they did a gar roundup like where you go out and fish for gar in the river and they had all these different events and things going on for the weekend. But then I love it because like the day itself was all about God and started out with a very spiritual thing. And so our kids were there. Yalls kids were there and one of yours kept just was not happy. I don't. I can't remember.

[Sam]

Yeah, it was Haven. Yeah. She was just losing her mind.

[Christian]

So I thought about. We. And we talked about my kids were there.

[Zach]

Were they losing their mind?

[Christian]

Your kids were immensely talented and did an awesome job and we talked about that on Unashamed and But it. Alex sent a video to our compound which is our like family group chat and it's a picture of my 7 year old and my 11 year old granddaughters singing with. And your. Your kids were up on the stage and Bobby and others will. And they had their hands raised and were praising God and she. She just kind of like she didn't want to like but she did the old side thing just to get a little video of that. And it just. It was so touching to see them at that age already, like, expressing worship to God. It's just. It was a really cool thing. As a grandpa, you know, you get that. That extra feels, you know, for that, and it was really neat. So, yeah, I mean, I. I've really grown to appreciate what everybody's doing as God just kind of spreads us out, you know, and the next generation is exciting. You know, it's exciting to see what you guys are doing.

[Zach]

Well, here we are at the burning bush moment, which is kind of a key text in the entire Bible, you know, this bush that's burning all on its own but not being consumed. It's really kind of when Moses has his first interaction with. With Yahweh. And at least in a way that y', all, God introduces himself for the very first time in scripture, which is actually.

[Christian]

Well, and I had never. It's amazing as many times I've taught the Bible and taught Genesis that. How did I miss that? That. That he never had said his name until here.

[Zach]

Never said it.

[Christian]

Which is true. I mean, and I didn't realize that until we got into. Shows you that there's always things to learn. But. Yeah, that was pretty.

[Zach]

Which I would say the centerpiece of this text is the revealing of the name of God.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Which, you know, he said he revealed himself to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but he said never told him my name. And that. I think the name that he revealed to them, it was El Shaddai.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

So it was that. It was a. It was. It wasn't a name, but it was.

[Mary Kate]

Like.

[Zach]

More about, yes, I'm God.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Yeah. But in terms of like. Like the personal identification that was withheld until this moment. And I found that very interesting. But it's not an accident of where this actually occurs either. In scripture, you know, we talk. I thought. Al knows this. I'm obsessed with the temple motif mainly because when we get to the New Testament, we. We become that temple. And when I think about my own life and my own, like, what I'm. What I'm seeking is, like, connection, presence, intimacy. It's all the things that we want. Right. And that God does that by moving in and living into a human body. So you see this picture of the temple all throughout. And anytime in scripture, you think about a temple, you think about. It's kind of an elevated place above earth, but it's on earth, but it's a little bit higher because you're getting closer into God now. Tower of Babel, they tried to do it on their own, but it's like, typically it's on a mountain, and then God kind of comes down and meets on the mountain. So the mountain is always a big, big point, literally, pun intended. A big point in the scripture that represents the place where God and man meet, the place where heaven and earth connect. I live in the mountains, so I know a little bit about this. But, you know, you go up to some of these mountains in Colorado and you're up 10,000ft, and the clouds, you feel like you're literally kind of in the heavens, you know?

[Christian]

Right.

[Zach]

So this takes place on a mountain. Moses was keeping the flock of his father in law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he fled his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. Have you ever thought about the significance? I mean, he talks a little bit about this in the text, but the fact that the bush was not being consumed, yet it was on fire. Have you ever thought about that?

[Sam]

Yeah, I'm looking at a fire right here behind you. Yeah, it's just. Yeah, I got. I don't know what that is. I don't know what that would look like. Just looking at a shrub, and it's just like. Yeah, it's crazy to think about it.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's not. Because typically, if you. True story. I just thought about this. The Only in Western I get a video. I was on my way here this morning, and I. I was going by the gas station down here, close to the paper mill, and I see this, like, incredible flame. I mean, this thing is like, Like. Like one of those, like, dark red with black smoke flames. And it caught my attention enough to where I, like, I turned around because I said, is that a house on fire? But there were like, no fire trucks or nobody was around. And I go down the street and it's like, in a neighborhood. This is not like in the. In the middle of the woods. I'm in a neighborhood, and there was a guy who had had a. His couch out in his front yard, and he was burning the couch.

[Mary Kate]

Nice, I thought.

[Zach]

Only. So I took a video.

[Christian]

Welcome back to Western Road.

[Zach]

What are we doing today? We're gonna burn the couch in the front yard. And no, like, there's no police. It's just like this is what we do.

[Sam]

And the couch was being consumed though.

[Zach]

But the couch.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Mary Kate]

Unlike the burning.

[Sam]

Unlike the burning bush.

[Christian]

Do you think that, and I don't know that Dr. Jackson talks about this, but this, is there some symbolism you think of, of purity of. With the, this fire or, or do you think it's more like judgment or. I mean, I don't know, like, why a fire? Yeah, right. Why, why, why that particular. Why, why would he use that?

[Zach]

Well, you think about the New Testament. God's described as an all consuming fire, right.

[Christian]

In Hebrews. Yeah.

[Zach]

The bush is not being consumed.

[Christian]

Right, right, right.

[Sam]

Yeah, that's interesting.

[Christian]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sam]

I thought his point was cool that he talked about like how the fire is kind of compared to scripture and it's like it's all consuming, like you can never get enough of it kind of thing.

[Zach]

Yeah, he did make that. I thought that was a really excellent point. But think about the nature of a fire is. In order for a fire to be a fire, it has to, it actually has to have energy, full matter to transform into energy. So it's. Fire has to consume because it's the, actually the, the, the generation of the fire is something else.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And so I think, I, I think what's happening here, because God's going to identify himself as being self referential in just a few minutes. He's going to, when they ask who, who are you? And where he reveals himself, he's like, I am.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And so in the bush, I think what you're seeing is the very nature of God is he is self generating. He's not reliant on the bush to burn.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

He's like, if I want to burn up, right, I generate myself. I'm not, I'm self.

[Christian]

And we compare ourselves or put ourselves in that position because like he tells him to take the sandals off. This is holy ground. And so I think about songs we've sung or I think about what is the one where it talks about. Is it Peter that talks about refining a refining fire that purifies and gold and it makes it even more pure and the more you turn to heat up, the more pure it gets. So I think about that in relationship to Moses being here and we hadn't even gotten into the part where he, we mentioned in the last podcast that he's like so self doubting of himself. But it's like, well, the more you're in me, the more you're near this fire, this holiness, this who I am, the more confident you're going to Become. And we watch that, and. And we watch that process happen over this book. And then, of course, the. In the subsequent books, in Deuteronomy as well, you see Moses, like, go through a transformation, you know, and a process, and he's quite the different man coming out the end. And you rarely get stories like that in the Bible because there's so many, like, work in progress. But here we watch the whole thing happen, and you see him refined by this fire. And so I think back to this moment where he was so doubtful of himself and everything. And then I think about the man on the other Mount Nebo, you know, that said God buried him, whatever that means. And then you see such a different transformation in a life. And so I just think it's interesting, and I guess maybe I'm more reflective on it having, you know, just put my dad, you know, in the ground, knowing he crossed over. But I just think about when you look at a transformed life and you can see the beginning and the end. I mean, it does a lot to then transfer future generations. And so that's what I see here in Moses in this moment, you know, where he's like, takes. Take your sandals off. There's something special happening right here.

[Mary Kate]

I see. Thinking about the bush burning in the fire. I think there's an element of control here of God showing like, I am all powerful, but I'm also protecting. The fire is burning, but he's not burning the bush. It's almost God saying, they're like, I can burn this if I wanted to, but I'm choosing to go against the natural order of the world and not burn this bush to show you I've got power, but also protect.

[Zach]

Yeah. And he's not dependent on that bush to burn, either.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Zach]

One of the things that's interesting, if you go to Exodus, I think 19, when there's this old song that we used to sing. It's like a bluegrass song that I love. It's. You're drifting too far from the shore. And, like, everybody covered it. Like Bob Dylan, I think, sang it, the Jerry Garcia, all the. You know, but. But it's a kind of a gospel. It's not a hymn. It's like a story about when we drift too far from God. And this is the picture of this guy. He's out on the. The sea, and he's. He's drifting away. And so the course is, you're drifting too far from the shore. You're drifting too far from the shore. But it talks about this tempest that rolls in and this word, like, tempest is like this incredible storm that you think about. Like, the most fearful thing I can imagine is being out on the ocean when, like, a massive storm comes in. I'm like, that scares me. So that storm rolls in and. And it's. And. And that the. When in Exodus 19, it's like that kind of storm is surrounding Mount Sinai. And it's because God's presence shows up on Mount Sinai. And it's such a fearful scene. Like, when you read it, it's like, earthquake. It's like this whole, like. I mean, everything's shaken. The whole mountain's just, like, violent.

[Christian]

I think fire was there too.

[Zach]

It was the whole.

[Christian]

Exactly.

[Zach]

There was a. There was a fire that was surrounding it.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And God's instruction was the same thing that he told Moses here. Don't come near. He says, don't let anybody come up this mountain. If they do, they will die. Yeah, because God's holiness was too great for there to be present. Like, they couldn't be in his presence because of their sin. Except for Moses was invited to come up. So it's interesting you talk about the transformation because in this moment of God's presence, he was not invited to come. In fact, God said, stop what you're doing. Don't come any closer. Take off your sandals. The ground you are standing on is holy ground. And I think that that one, it kind of highlights our condition pretty transformation. It highlights a condition of our heart that we can't enter into this.

[Christian]

And he was full of fear. Don't forget to sign up to take these classes with us. They're free. Unashamedforhillsdale.com yeah, and he says, Zach, in verse six, that this Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look at God, which, you know, later he's going to want. Want to see that face. But I thought this was interesting, too. In verse seven, it says, the Lord said, I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I've heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I'm concerned about their suffering. So I've come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians. And I find it interesting because he says this out of a fire that, as we said, is more of a refining fire and this consuming fire of who he is. But I immediately thought back to Genesis 18, which we didn't talk about because Dr. Jackson didn't deal with it, but was Sodom and Gomorrah. When you remember, God heard their sin had reached the cry of the sin of this valley had reached him. And it was so grievous and egregious that he rained fire down as a judgment in that situation. So it's interesting. Here he hears this suffering, and out of a fire he said, I'm going to come to rescue. But it was just exactly the opposite when you had this entire valley full of people that had gotten so hedonistic and so, you know, far away, that their cry reached him as well. And that was a whole different kind of fire. So it is interesting to me to see when you look at this juxtaposition, that here you get this idea that fire, the consuming fire of God, can be really great, can be really scary if you don't have.

[Zach]

Depending on what position you're.

[Christian]

Depending on your position. Exactly.

[Zach]

Fires the fire. His presence is his presence. But what is the condition of your heart?

[Sam]

Exactly.

[Zach]

And can you. Can you receive that fire as life? Because if you can't, it will, like his glory will consume you.

[Mary Kate]

Right?

[Sam]

Right.

[Zach]

One way or the other. It could be a good consummation, or it could be a. Like a consumption to destruction.

[Mary Kate]

We talked about in Genesis and with Dr. Jackson in the other episode how being in the presence of God requires obedience. And part of that, the reason. Part of the reason God gave them the fruit of knowledge, good and evil, was for them to obey, to not eat it. Like, that was part of the requirement. And with Moses, walk him coming up on the burning bush, he is not. Moses is not obedient to God and is not planning on being obedient. Like, that's part of the reason I think God said, you can't come into my presence or come into this fire. You. You've got to take your shoes off and stay back. Because in the exchange that happens right after this, when God tells Moses what he's going to do, Moses is like, nope, not for me.

[Zach]

He's not the guy for the job.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah, he's like, Moses, like, I'm not doing it. Moses tries to do everything he can to get out of doing what God is telling you.

[Christian]

He has, like, five different things, excuses.

[Mary Kate]

Oh, yeah. Which that's. Well, I'll go ahead and read this. That's one of my favorite things is he goes through all the excuses and God's like, Moses, like, oh, well, they won't listen to me. And God performs miracle after miracle. And then we get to this line and God says, now therefore, go. I will be your mouth. I will teach you and you shall speak. But Moses says, oh, my Lord, please send someone else. Moses, like, all right, you got me. You can do. I see that you're all powerful. I see that you're coming up with an answer to everyone. My excuses. I just simply don't want to go.

[Sam]

And what I think is so interesting about that is because I think about, for me, in my case, if I think about, if God calls me to something, for me, I feel like what holds me back would be more shame versus the fear of like a lack that I can do something. Because. Because you never see Moses really address the fact that he killed an Egyptian. Right. Like, if God's in, if God's calling him to do this, I feel like for me, the first thing I would say would not be, I have a speech impediment. I feel like I, I feel like, feel like the shame would hold me back more than a lack of equality of something like that. But that's not, that's not. And that's not listed in Moses's lack of criteria to God, which I think is kind of interesting.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Sam]

Because I feel like, because when he, when he, when he hides his face from God, because that can either be fearful or like he feels shame for something he did, but that's never addressed really later. Right?

[Christian]

No.

[Zach]

Well, it could be both. I mean, I think it is both because you got to keep in mind that Jethro, his father in law was not an Israelite. And so he's out in the wilderness and he kind of folds in under this family. And you can only imagine, I mean, and think about the fact that. That Moses was not. Moses was raised in an Egyptian household. So Moses is not a guy that's been catechized in the, in the Hebrew culture or the culture of Israel at all.

[Sam]

When he saves the bandits at the, when he saves the woman from the bandits, he's. They, they call him an Egyptian.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Christian]

I mean, they, they, they, they thought he was an Egyptian.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Christian]

And the only thing he would have learned was what his mother would have taught him he couldn't do as she nursed. And remember in Pharaoh's house, on some.

[Zach]

Level, you got to believe until this moment that this guy was probably even worshiping foreign gods.

[Christian]

I think so.

[Zach]

I mean, Egypt, I mean, this is not somebody that we would be like, okay, here's the guy for the job, which I think is the point of the text is his incompetency. At least the beginning of this text, it's his incompetency and his moral corruption. And this may be his shame, but I think it's highlighting this one Big narrative that he's not the main character here.

[Mary Kate]

Exactly.

[Zach]

God's the main character in the story. And God's the main character. He's always choosing the guy that you don't think he should choose. God is. And I think that that's intentional, even when the Messiah ultimately comes. Not how I would have done it. Just saying. I would not have put the Messiah in a baby's body born in a. In a feeding trough. I just wouldn't have done it that way. But that's always kind of the. The angle that God.

[Christian]

And you got to think about it from Moses's perspective. He's. By now, when this happens. He's 80 years old, and the first half of his life, raised in a different culture, knew about the Hebrews, obviously, because that's why he went out and he killed the Egyptian. But he learned that from his mother. But he still wasn't part of that oral tradition other than whatever she told him. And so he's 80 years old now. Like, I totally understand. From his perspective, he's thinking, if there was some destiny, that ship has sailed. That passed. And so now I'm out here. I got my sheep, you know, I got my little life. I got my family.

[Zach]

He got into the. He married into money.

[Christian]

Yeah, there you go.

[Zach]

Like, I remember when Joe and I first started dating, and her dad was a plant manager for Goodyear. He was, like, on the track to be an executive for Goodyear. And he was. I mean, he was pretty high up. And. And I. I first. That's the first time I met her parents. And I had. When I was in college. I don't know if you remember that car drive. It was a 1983 Mercury Grand Marquis. So it was like a hooptie. We called it a hooptie. It was a piece of junk. But it was like, you know, so I had the hoopie. I drive it up to her. Her dad's house or the See Jill in North Carolina, and her dad walks outside, and he's like. And he's like, I want to see your vehicle. And I was like. It's kind of a weird, like, introduction. Hey, how's it going, mister? Yeah, thank y' all for letting me stay here. Yeah, let me go see your. Your. Your vehicle. And I'm like, why does he want to see my vehicle? And so he literally, like.

[Christian]

Then you're thinking, oh, I hope I got the drugs out of.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah, I was. I was. All the drugs.

[Christian]

Oh, no, I'm kidding.

[Zach]

But he's kicking the tires on this thing. Literally kicking the tires, like, measuring the tread. Like, what weirdo does this?

[Sam]

That's so funny.

[Zach]

And he's like, your tires are bald. And I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, they're like 150 bucks a piece back then.

[Christian]

I'm poor.

[Zach]

I'm poor.

[Christian]

I'm poor.

[Zach]

So he. He says, get. Get in the vehicle. And we drive to the Goodyear store. And he's like, put four new tires on this thing. You can't drive my daughter with these ball tires. And I'm like, like, doing the math in my head, I'm like, Those are, like, $150 a piece.

[Christian]

He just sunk 600 bucks.

[Zach]

And I've got, like, 550.

[Christian]

You better be the one.

[Zach]

I'm like. And I'm trying to, like, how am.

[Mary Kate]

I gonna do this?

[Zach]

What do I do? And I'm just like, in this panic moment of, like, how am I going to pay for this? And when the bill came due, like, he pulled out his credit card and he paid for the. Paid for the tires. And I was like, there's the gospel. I said, she's. I said, she's the one. I said, I'm gonna take this guy. I'm going to get.

[Christian]

I'm gonna get everything at all. He did get a company discount.

[Zach]

And he did tell me, because I did the whole, like, alligator arms. Like, no, I'll pay.

[Christian]

That.

[Mary Kate]

Let me.

[Christian]

Let me get that.

[Zach]

Put this one on me unless anybody else wants to know my arm. And he said, oh, you'll pay.

[Christian]

You'll pay.

[Zach]

So I have paid. But I think this is, like, the moment, like, where Moses is like, oh, this guy's got flocks. He's got the sheep. I'm. I'm just gonna hang out here.

[Mary Kate]

Uhhuh.

[Christian]

No doubt.

[Zach]

And God calls him.

[Christian]

Yeah, no, you're exactly right.

[Sam]

I was gonna say an interesting point, because I feel like there's. There's some things in scripture where, like, for Moses, for instance, you. You can look at him, and it's like. Doesn't really make sense why God would call him. But then when you zoom out, I feel like it makes complete sense why God would call him. Because he grew up in Pharaoh's household, so he knows the traditions, that he speaks the language, like, all the things, and even kind of tying him into, like, Paul. It's like, why would God choose Paul or Saul? But then you zoom out, and it's like, well, he's a Roman citizen. He's a Jew. Like, he studied under game. Like, all these things. So it's like, I feel like there's. Yeah, I feel like there's an interesting correlation between Moses and. And Paul or Saul, because like I said, if you just look at it on the text, it's like, why would God choose them? But then when you zoom out the way that Paul was able to reason with people and his, His. His learning and his citizenship, it makes complete sense why God would call him. And same thing for Moses. Like, yeah, he grew up in Pharaoh's household, so he knew the traditions, he knew the language and all those things. And I feel like when you look at it like that, it makes sense why God would call Moses to do it.

[Christian]

Well, and it's interesting that at 40, he thought he was ready to lead and able to lead and by his own power would lead, but he found out that was an absolute failure. I mean, his instinct was the wrong instinct in the moment. Because like, a guy told me a long time ago, if you think you're a leader and you look around, nobody's following you, you're not a leader.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Christian]

And that's what happened to Moses. And so now he's in a situation where it's the last thing he wants to do. And like he said, he's making excuse after excuse after excuse. And God's like, oh, no, you're ready. Yeah, now you're ready.

[Zach]

Now you're ready.

[Christian]

Now you're ready. And that's a great analogy to Saul and Paul because, I mean, Saul was so confident that he was right and defensive of God. Like, it's like, how dare you go against my God? And the one I know is always. And he was right. It was the same God. The problem was he missed Jesus and until Jesus introduced himself on that road. So it is interesting, and you do see that introduction, by the way, you mentioned about at the woman at the well, that Jesus is that same. I am, you know, I will be there, I will be there was the way he put it, which I thought that was an interesting take, you know, because he says, I am that I am. Was that verse.

[Zach]

Well, that's what he gives his name. Yeah.

[Christian]

God said to Moses, I am who I am. And Dr. Jackson talked about one of the variants of that was, I will.

[Zach]

Be there, I will be there, I will be there.

[Sam]

Howsoever, I will be there.

[Christian]

Yeah, there you go. There you go. And. Which I think is very powerful, the idea of both proximity as well as the person of God, because we kind of just focusing on the person of God. But he's saying the proximity of God. And this goes back to what you always talk about, the idea about God coming down, that he's here with us. And then of course, when he went back, when Jesus left here, he said he sent the Holy Spirit because he's not leaving us alone. So I love that idea. In that picture of the God all.

[Zach]

The way through, he says that in 3, 7, 8. Basically, God says, I have seen, I have heard, and I have come down. So you see the condescension of God in this moment of the sun. This is the sun probably too, this manifesting here. And I've seen, I've heard, and I didn't stay distant. And I'm here and I've come down. I'm here, I'm here. That's powerful.

[Mary Kate]

One of the things you said earlier, Zach said earlier about how God is the main character of the story, that was one of the notes I'd written down for this story, especially about Moses. And this is something that lent the whole story more credence to me. It's not a very good story if Moses is the main character. While I was reading through Exodus for this, I was also reading another book that's a fantasy book and I read epic fantasy. I read tons of books and I read this book and it was about this guy who it was kind of a similar story story. Moses, like he was due for the throne, they got kicked out. And then he goes on this whole, like whole 10 year long revenge story. And the whole time he like never forgets, like, he never forgives him, he never like wavers from wanting revenge. In the book, you're like, yeah, I want him to get revenge. And then in the end when he does, you're like, oh yeah, like he did it. And I mean, you kind of see his, his character like devolve while he's trying to get revenge. And the point is that revenge isn't good, but it makes a good story because you see his like, dissension. You see him never want that revenge. You see him spurred, you see all that raw emotion and you're like, follow. You're just interested in like how he's going through this whole, you know, action adventure with Moses. He tries something, he gets kicked out of Egypt and he's like, yep, I'm done. Forget that like 40 years later, he doesn't want to go back, he doesn't want any part of the story, he doesn't want the action, he doesn't want fame. He's just like, I'm just gonna be shepherd and out Here in the wilderness. And God's like, yeah. And God's like, nope, I'm gonna drag you into this. Which is, like, just shows me, like, God is a main character. God does have the power. It's not about our, like, actual, like, at some point, we. God calls us and we have to respond. But it's not that because we have the thing. It's not. The story isn't about us. It's about us being involved in what God's doing.

[Zach]

Oh, by the way, you guys can take this class with us @unashamed for hillstone.com is absolutely free. We're in the book of Exodus. This is our second class session on Exodus or so we're in Exodus 3, the burning bush. God gives his name. So y' all come take this with us. It really does make. I mean, if you take the course, you hear Dr. Jackson's lectures, they're very short, too. And you can come in here and sit in this with us. But anyways, your dad, he was talking about kind of like having your head on a swivel, like, being. I forgot how he said it. But, like, God's moving whether you're a part of it or not. So the question is not, like, God's not. His movement is not going to be dependent on us. So I love the way he said that because it's like, so many times, I think, oh, if we don't do this for God, it's not going to get done. No, it's going to get done. He's going to get it done. The question is not whether God's going to move. The question is, are you going to move with him in his movement? And I think that's. He's the main character, and he's inviting us in to participate in that. But he is the main character. He is sovereign. It is his ultimate plan and agenda. And I think that that whole agenda of God is centered around the idea of presence. I actually think we should read the Scripture through that lens. God wanting to be present with his people. And you see it in this burning bush because you guys. What did you say? Dr. Jackson says this. I thought you just mentioned it. What was. You've memorized it. What was it?

[Sam]

I will be there. Howsoever. I will be there.

[Zach]

I will be there. Howsoever. I will be there. Like, beware. Yeah, it's with us. And so when I preached this text at our church, I didn't. I'd never heard that before, by the way.

[Mary Kate]

But.

[Zach]

But I did find some research. I Did some research on the, the actual Hebrew of this idea of this phrase. I am, that I am. Because I've always interpreted that with the burning bush of. This is. This is just saying that God is self referential.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Like he's self sustaining. There's that, there's that passage in the New Testament where he says before Abraham was I am John.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zach]

That's where I'm like, that's just. Christ is like he doesn't exist in our temporal. Like he's not bound by the temple.

[Sam]

No one of us don't him for that.

[Zach]

Oh yeah, they did.

[Sam]

That was a big deal.

[Zach]

But it was referencing back to this moment.

[Christian]

Right.

[Zach]

And I do think that that's in here, but it's not all that it is. And so a lot of scholars, the Greek, the Hebrew word here is is. It's a verb, hahia. And it doesn't just point to his existence. This verb actually points to. It's a manifest presence. So when Christ is, when he says I am or I will be there, what he's saying is my name. Actually. Yes. It's self referential and all that. But in my very name is the idea of a manifest presence. And so then when you get to the Book of John, the Gospel of John, that's the whole point. Christ condescends and tabernacles with us. He tabernacles with. His presence is here. It's the whole centerpiece. And he's going to eventually do that through the Holy Spirit by living in the bodies of believers. So the entire New Testament teaching that Christ lives in the temples not built by man's hands, but the ones that he lives in our bodies, then that's all like right here in this text.

[Christian]

And you see that. And we've been in John 14 recently on Unashamed, when he tells them, remember, and it is a. They're worried. He said, I'm going to a place. So he tells about a place. But then he says, but you know the way I'm. You know the way. Then he says, I am the way. The truth and the life. In other words, if you know me, you know what you need to know. So we were talking about on the Unashamed podcast earlier in John that he is both place and person all wrapped into one. And which when you think about that is so comforting because you're never alone. I mean you've always, I mean we talk on here about. I mean this becomes the turning point for Moses because he realizes he's never alone again. I mean I'm sure he felt like he was all alone.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Down here and, you know, in the desert with the camels and the whatnot. Instead, it's like, no, I'm everywhere. Yeah, but. And yet I'm near you.

[Mary Kate]

Right.

[Christian]

Which is powerful. So.

[Mary Kate]

Well, I think that's. That the idea that God is everywhere and moving, even in places we can't see, I think is evident here at the end of the burning bush. Whenever God says, in my God's anger was kindled against Moses. He said, is there not Aaron, your brother, the Levi I know he can speak. Well, behold, he's coming out to meet you.

[Sam]

I was just about to say that point.

[Mary Kate]

And the point being Aaron was already on the way.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Mary Kate]

Like, at some point, God already told Aaron, hey, head to your brother Moses out there.

[Christian]

He's already working it out.

[Mary Kate]

We got something to do. I feel like that's just. I thought this was funny, because I think that could have been one of the reasons that God was mad at Moses is like, Moses kind of spoiled the surprise by nagging. Like, it's like when you. Like, Mary Kate and I have had this fight before, whereas, like, I've, like, set. Set up a surprise, and it's like, oh, I know she's gonna like this, but then she, like, she wants it. And then I'm like, no, like, don't. Oh, we're not gonna go. We're not gonna do that. We're not gonna go on that trip. You know, whatever. And she's like, no, I want to go. And she's like, all right, I'm booking tickets. And I'm like, oh, no, okay, fine. I already did it. It's like she tricks you into, like. It's like. It's like you ruined the surprise because you couldn't, like, believe in me that I actually got it done. And, like, that's what Moses just did. Like, God was like. He even says, aaron's going to be glad in his heart to see you. Like, God was like, oh, there's going to be a whole brother reunion. It's going to be this whole surprise. Moses is going to be like, oh, I'll follow you. And then Aaron's going to show up. And Moses can be like, wow, God was already working on this. And then Moses just through complaining, made God ruin the surprise. You know?

[Christian]

And you're right. As far as we know. I hadn't thought about that before. As far as we know, he may not have seen him for 40 years. I don't know.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Christian]

When's the last time I even saw him, you know, he's been down here this whole time.

[Mary Kate]

Right.

[Christian]

It's not like he's going back and forth because, I mean, he's very afraid about even going back. So that is a big moment that he had planned for.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah, yeah. It was going to be a big renewed.

[Christian]

I hadn't thought about that.

[Sam]

I see Moses and Aaron is like Mario and Luigi.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah, I know. Aaron's taller. Aaron's.

[Sam]

Luigi is taller. Yeah.

[Mary Kate]

For whatever reason.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Sam]

Luigi's the spokesperson.

[Mary Kate]

Moses is like a little, like little guy.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Mary Kate]

Aaron's Luigi.

[Zach]

He's like a bigger, taller, like a good speaker, apparently. It's kind of like. It's weird because typically you would think the main guy would be the. The guy who can speak like most churches. Right. Your main. Your lead pastor. That's the guy that's got the.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah. The charisma.

[Zach]

Yeah. And then. And then your executive pastor, he's the behind the scenes guy. But it's kind of flipped here. The main guy.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Is Moses, who doesn't speak very well. And then Aaron's kind of like a sidekick.

[Christian]

Well, it's interesting because the. When you look at their heritage as you go forward, you know, through time in the Old Testament, you know, they. They both come out of the tribe of Levi, which is the, you know, priesthood tribe. And so. Which would make sense for Aaron because he kind of becomes the father of the priesthood. But you don't think about it. Well, so was Moses.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Christian]

It's just. He wasn't in that role, but he. But he had this.

[Zach]

He's more the prophet role.

[Christian]

Exactly. And yet he had that. Which again, it makes that like that Christ typology where you see prophet. He had two roles, even though you never think about him being in the priesthood. But he was. I mean, he ushered in the covenant. I mean, he really was a high priest before they knew about High priest.

[Zach]

It's kind of funny because you got a wicked king.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Pharaoh, you got a king, you got a prophet, you got a priest, you got a temple, you got all the things. And then Christ is like, I'm all of it.

[Christian]

Every bit of it. And he's all.

[Sam]

Except the evil king.

[Zach]

Except the evil. He's not an evil king.

[Sam]

He's a good king.

[Christian]

Yeah, he's a king of kings. So what did y' all think about the. Another thing he brought out was this idea of the hand. I wanted to mention that before we left this text because he says in verse 20, I will stretch out my hand. And strike the Egyptians with all the wonders I will perform among them. And Dr. Jackson made a big point about this being a typology we're going to see all throughout the entire book was this, this idea of the hand, his hand, in this case, talking about the hand of God. But then also as we'll get to in the next chapter too, even Moses hand, remember, it's like that was one of the signs was the lepers thing and all that. But did that. Had you guys thought about that before? I had not really realized how much it comes up. And now every time I realize, oh, there's the hand of God, there's. This is my hand. Stretch out my hand. Stretch out my hand. Stretch out my hand. I mean, what did you make of that? Anything pop into your head about that?

[Sam]

Yeah, I hadn't thought about it before, like, how many times? Like, that's a repetition.

[Mary Kate]

Right.

[Sam]

Because the thing that I thought was interesting, I kind of said this a little bit last time, but like the, like for Pharaoh, you know, you're looking at Moses, who's this stuttering man, and Pharaoh's thinking, because this is kind of how doctor, Dr. Jackson worded that a stuttering man's hand is more powerful than Pharaoh's hand. Here's the thing about Pharaoh who views himself as a God. And here's this Hebrew Moses who has a stuttering problem, who's more powerful than you. It's like just thinking about, like, what would be going through Pharaoh's head as he's looking at this stuttering man who's more powerful than he is.

[Zach]

Right.

[Sam]

And yeah. Whether it was Pharaoh or whether it was Moses's hand or, or. Or God's hand. Yeah. I hadn't realized.

[Christian]

Well, one of the one thing that struck me about it was the, the sort of irony of it because remember Joseph, when he goes into Egypt when he sold as a slave by his brothers, he winds up being elevated to the right hand of. He was the right hand of Pharaoh.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Remember, I mean, he was like the prime minister. He ran everything. He was like, you know, it doesn't necessarily say those words, but that's what he was. And so now we flip this thing around where, where Moses is the right hand of God.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Christian]

To Pharaoh. And we. So but now we've all these generations flip around and now like it's. God says, oh, you want to. You want a right hand?

[Zach]

Yeah, I'm going to your right hand. Well, it's interesting if you think about that God being the main character, then that kind of makes a lot of sense that this. It's the hand of God. But he, like, he's like, Moses is acting in this capacity. The same. You see, the same exact thing with the staff. Because, you know, has this. The staff is like, you know, like in Aladdin when they, like, the guy has all the powers. And the way that they defeat the evil wizard or sorcerer is they have to. They take that. His staff, and they break it, and then he loses his powers. Right. But in God's world, the power is not in the staff. It's the rod of God. It's the staff of God. So it's like the same thing with the place that they're meeting at in Exodus 3. There's nothing really holy about the place. The reason why the place is holy is because it's been transformed by the presence of God. So it's not the place that does the transformation. It's that God's presence transforms the place. And so whatever the vehicle of God's work is, is going to be the hand of God. So I was. When you asked that question, I immediately thought of the staff. He said, what's in your hand? This is chapter four. He said, a staff. What's the big deal? It's a staff. Throw it on the ground. So he threw it on the ground. It became a serpent. Then Moses ran from it. But the Lord said to Moses, put out your hand and catch it by the tail. So he put out his hand and he caught it, and it became a staff in his hand again. Well, that same staff, if you look at the end Moses took. This is at the end of chapter four, when he returns to Egypt. In verse 20, it says, and Moses took the staff of God in his hand. Oh, by the way, right before that, verse 17, he says, and take in your hand this staff, which you shall do all these signs. And if you just go through, like, the whole story, this staff is, like, all over the place. It's at the parting of the Red Sea, but it's the staff of God. What's the biggest.

[Christian]

It's a piece of wood, which, by the way, he had because he was a shepherd.

[Zach]

He had. Yeah. But. But without the presence of God to transform this. This staff became the thing that like. Like what we. You and the fantasy stuff. I mean, who. I always wanted like that. Really.

[Mary Kate]

No, it's all about the staff.

[Zach]

You got to have staff.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah.

[Zach]

With God, like, it's not. It's not. It's just wood until his presence turns it into the staff of God. Now, so you can start parting red seas, you can like lay out plagues, you can turn it into a snake.

[Christian]

It can eat, that eats other snakes.

[Zach]

Kind of a big deal.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah, it's a huge deal.

[Zach]

I want to staff that. Oh, by the way, yeah. If you want to staff too, you can get a free stash by signing up this course with us. You don't get the staff, but you can take this course with us for free at sun ashamed for hillsdale.com we're in our second series on Exodus. We're going to do David next, I think so. But go ahead and download. Take the courses absolutely free. They're awesome. And we're going to unpack it here every Friday on the Unashamed podcast.

[Christian]

So one of the things I thought was interesting because, you know, you get this a lot about this part of the narrative and especially now when he's told him to not only go, he goes back, he goes back to speak to the Israelite leaders because remember, he hadn't been there 40 years and it didn't end well when he left. So he's got to convince them that he's from God. And then he's got to, then they've got to go to convince Pharaoh that the people need to go to be able to worship God. So you see, it's kind of two tiered and I don't know which is probably more daunting to Moses because, you know, he's fighting a two front battle here to get people to believe. He's got to get the original group to believe that he's supposed to be the guy. Then he's got to get them to convince Pharaoh. But this thing comes up a lot about pharaoh's heart because Dr. Jackson mentions it like there's different, it's like three different ways it was Pharaoh hard is.

[Zach]

What the pharaoh harden his own heart. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart?

[Christian]

Did you hear all? Yeah, because you hear.

[Sam]

Well, because he, because he brought up the point that like Pharaoh viewed himself as a God, which kind of differentiated itself in the hardening of his heart.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Sam]

Which I never thought about, like viewing it through that lens.

[Christian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Zach]

I mean, I've, I've, I've looked into this a lot because you get to like the Book of Romans, for example, there's a lot of New Testament application to this part of the story and a lot of theological implications as well. Good. People can disagree. I think that this is the Hebrew word here for harden is a word called chazak, which means to strengthen in Resolve. So I think what God's saying here, when he says, I'm going to harden Pharaoh's heart so that he won't let you go. And there's a. We can. We can get into this later. But he actually tells us later on in Exodus the reason why he does this. He says, I wanted to basically multiply my signs and wonders in you, and so I harden your heart for this very purpose so that I'm paraphrasing this so that this story of the Exodus would be told for generations. And the way I always interpreted that is that, like, God's about to. The next. The next Friday when we get into this, we're going to talk about the plagues. And when you read these plagues, you're like, man, anybody in their right mind would fold like a cheap suit. Like, anybody after one. After one, certainly after 10, right? But Pharaoh doesn't do that. And I think that the reason why is because God's like. Like your heart's belligerent. And we see that in the scripture, the Pharaoh does harden his own heart. I think Pharaoh four or five times before God, it says, God, harden his heart. Right. And I think what's happening here is, is God's like, I'm going to take your belligerent disobedience, and then what I'm going to do is I'm just going to ratchet it up. I'm going to strengthen you in that resolve. Because here's what. Because what I'm about to do, I'm going to be. I'm going to display such. There's going to be such a display of sovereign power that anybody in their right mind would fold. But I have a bigger purpose, because in 2000, in thousands of years from now, there's going to be four guys on a podcast called the Unashamed with Hillsdale on Friday episodes.

[Mary Kate]

And tune in, it's free.

[Zach]

Tune in, it's free ad.

[Mary Kate]

Free.

[Zach]

But there's the plug. They're gonna be doing it for free. And, and, and, and, and they're going to be talking about this story of the Exodus. This story is going to live on for the rest of humanity because it's going to be the prototype from which I. I build the whole thing. And so I don't want you to fold, so I'm going to strengthen you in your own resolve. I think that's what he does in this whole story is he just ratchets it up and he hardens Pharaoh's heart.

[Christian]

And then a lot of times people will make The. Well, you know, he really didn't have a choice because God was doing this to him. But I just, I don't buy it. I mean, I think Pharaoh had a choice every step of the way to relent and repent, and he just would not do it.

[Sam]

At one point, he kind of did. And then he asked Moses to petition for him.

[Christian]

Well, he lies. He basically says, I repent, but he didn't mean it.

[Zach]

I think there's a. I. I personally think there's a point that he crosses. And it's kind of. I don't know what that point is for anybody. It's kind of like the whole blasphemy of the Holy Spirit argument.

[Christian]

Right.

[Zach]

Like, there's a point you can get to, according to Scripture, where you just can't return. Not that God won't accept you. You just, you just. You won't return because you blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Like, it's. I think that's. I think that's probably true in scripture. I know that's very debatable. But I think that Pharaoh and whatever God knows that in his sovereignty, he knows, like, you're a vessel of wrath, and so I'm going to use you for that.

[Christian]

So Christian makes a strong point. I mean, he, he claimed to be a God, and so it was a battle of gods now. And so. And there's only one.

[Zach]

Well, he said, I wanted to get Yalls thoughts on this. I, I think I know where you might land because we read a lot of the same stuff, but when he talked about Dr. Jackson, talked about the fallen angels, and I kind of think there's like some little Elohims, some little guys that. Are there really something going on here?

[Christian]

Oh, yeah.

[Mary Kate]

Oh, 100%.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Mary Kate]

Totally there. Yeah. I mean, I think not even to get into the Book of Enoch, but just to stick with, with the canon. It talks about Daniel like the Prince of Darkness, the different spiritual forces over different areas of land. And I definitely think there's something going on here. One of the reasons I think that is that the magicians or the court people who were under Pharaoh were also doing miracles. And you could take that as like they were faking it or that. I don't think it's really written like that. It seems like they're legitimately doing stuff.

[Christian]

Yeah, it doesn't act like they're.

[Mary Kate]

Doesn't act like they're faking it. It seems like they're actually doing stuff. So you got some power going on on both sides.

[Christian]

And what was interesting is there comes a point which we'll get into in the next podcast, where they couldn't. I mean, the one thing they couldn't do was undo something God. They could replicate for a while to a point.

[Zach]

They can never undo what he did.

[Mary Kate]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sam]

Because later in the chapters, because Pharaoh says, like, he knows other gods, but then he says, I don't know who you're talking about when he's talking to Moses, talking about the Lord. Yeah. I mean, you look at the plagues. We're going to get the next podcast, but with the snakes, like, of course, Moses snake eats the other snakes. Ye.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Gosh.

[Sam]

Like, okay, that's cool. You can do that. But it's. And it doesn't work like that.

[Zach]

Sicken boys.

[Sam]

Doesn't work like that.

[Zach]

You can sick your snake on a group. We're out of time. But, yeah, next time come back. And again, if you're not taking the course, take the course with us, guys. I mean, it's. It's free, it's amazing. And we're going to dive deeper into the book of Exodus.

[Sam]

Yeah. Moses's snake was like an anaconda, and they were like little garden snakes.

[Christian]

One of those little ones with the stripes on.

[Zach]

You know, it's funny. That's why they call it a king snake, because the king snake is the king over all other snakes. And they eat other snakes.

[Christian]

Right.

[Zach]

That's what a king snake does. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.

[Sam]

Sam.