Ep 1194 | John Luke Robertson Endures a Plague of His Own & Exodus Confirms Demonic Forces

Summary

Podcast Summary – Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode: Ep 1194 | John Luke Robertson Endures a Plague of His Own & Exodus Confirms Demonic Forces
Date: October 24, 2025

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Overview

This episode explores the story of the plagues in Exodus, reflecting on its significance for believers today. The Robertson family and their guests dive into the themes of spiritual warfare, God’s covenant faithfulness, the power of God’s name, and the tangible existence of demonic forces—while weaving in relatable, humorous stories from their lives. The discussion is deeply rooted in scripture, especially focusing on Exodus chapters 5–10, and aims to encourage listeners to join their ongoing Bible course.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Modern-Day Plagues: John Luke’s Dog Disaster

• [01:05–06:05]
  • John Luke shares a comical, yet taxing, personal story: he was up all night due to his dog Timber’s illness (explosive diarrhea after eating Walmart delivery groceries—including chocolate and raw chicken).
  • The hosts liken his ordeal to enduring a modern-day “plague," humorously paralleling it with the biblical narrative.
  • Quote:
    • “Last night I was on the... Yeah, I was like, oh, wow, this is relatable. The one thing that kept me going last night was thinking, this will be a great cold open tomorrow.” – John Luke [08:08]
  • The family jokes about their preference for outdoor dogs and commiserates about the trials of pet ownership and young parenthood.

2. Transition to Exodus: Personal Trials as Parallels

• [06:05–09:13]
  • The conversation shifts from John Luke’s ordeal to Moses’ trials in Exodus.
  • The Robertsons frame their everyday struggles as echoing the biblical narrative, suggesting real life often mirrors scripture in unexpected ways.
  • Quote:
    • “Sometimes hearing the lament of others makes you feel better.” – Host [05:14]

3. Studying Exodus Together: Hillsdale College Partnership

• [09:13–10:37]
  • The episode is part of their “Unashamed Academy,” studying Exodus in partnership with Hillsdale College.
  • The hosts encourage listeners to join their free online course, emphasizing the ongoing, communal nature of scripture study.
  • Quote:
    • “Every time you go back and you dedicate time to it, you’re going to learn and you’re going to be challenged.” – Host [10:03]

4. Moses’ Calling: Fear, Rejection, and God’s Plans

• [10:37–14:24]
  • The group explores Moses’ initial fear of returning to his people, tying it to universal experiences of rejection, self-doubt, and reluctance.
  • Al compares Moses’ emotions to their own family’s reconciliation journeys, making the text relatable.
  • Quote:
    • “This is your people. And yet at the same time, you’re so distant because you don’t know…you’re trying to bridge that gap.” – Host [11:17]
  • The podcast underscores that Moses’ struggle with rejection prefigures Israel’s continual resistance.

5. Covenant Theology and God’s Faithfulness

• [14:24–16:16]
  • Zach articulates the importance of covenant theology: the realization that God’s covenant does not depend on human faithfulness, but God’s.
  • He references the Abrahamic blood covenant and foreshadows Christ’s ultimate fulfillment.
  • Quote:
    • “The covenant of God does not depend on the faithfulness of man. It depends on the faithfulness of God.” – Host [15:24]

6. Foreshadowing and the Narrative Arc of Exodus

• [16:16–19:09]
  • The hosts discuss narrative foreshadowing: God announces early that death will come for the firstborn, paralleling story structures like Titanic (the ending is known, but the journey is compelling).
  • The inevitability and escalation of the plagues is highlighted as a means for God to prompt repentance and reveal Himself.
  • Quote:
    • “He already kind of tells at the very beginning, this is going to end really badly. But then you gotta go back and go through the process because he’s given them an opportunity to repent at every step.” – Host [17:23]

7. The Significance of God’s Name (Yahweh vs. El Shaddai)

• [19:09–27:00]
  • The discussion delves deeply into the revelation of God’s name—moving from El Shaddai (God Almighty) to Yahweh (a personal, present God).
  • Naming signifies presence and relationship, prefiguring the New Testament revelation of Jesus.
  • Quotes:
    • “The intention here really is for Moses... to tell the people what the name of God is.” – Host [21:10]
    • “When God gives His new name Yahweh, I am who I am, it’s bringing it down to the personal.” – John Luke [25:00]
  • The conversation connects knowing God by name to developing an authentic, relational faith.

8. Demonic Forces, Spiritual Powers, and Biblical Monotheism

• [27:00–33:39]
  • The podcast unpacks the presence of magicians and spiritual power in Pharaoh’s court, discussing reality of spiritual warfare and the concept of multiple Elohim (“gods”) in the Old Testament.
  • Referencing Michael Heiser and “The Unseen Realm,” they clarify that biblical monotheism recognizes Yahweh as the ultimate God among lesser, created spiritual beings.
  • The group discusses their own upbringing in less spiritually expressive traditions, contrasting it with global Christianity and citing missionary stories of supernatural activity.
  • Quote:
    • “Monotheism... Yahweh is the best God. He’s the God of all gods.” – Host [28:55]
    • “Our tradition of Christianity... had a very critical view of anything spiritual.” – John Luke [31:15]

9. Contemporary Spiritual Warfare & Personal Responsibility

• [33:39–36:15]
  • The text of Exodus is connected to present-day spiritual struggles, referencing Ephesians 6: cosmic powers and authorities.
  • The hosts emphasize that demonic engagement (like Pharaoh’s) is participatory—humans open doors to these forces.
  • Auschwitz is invoked as an example of palpable historic evil still sensed today.
  • Quotes:
    • “There is a celestial, cosmic realm that is actually orchestrating some of these things.” – Host [33:53]
    • “There is a participation... that Pharaoh is engaged with demonic forces.” – Host [35:42]

10. God’s Progressive Self-Revelation and the Plagues’ Meaning

• [36:15–47:12]
  • The discussion returns to the Exodus text, focusing on how God hardens Pharaoh’s heart not for mere submission through power, but for relationship based on love and trust.
  • The intention behind the plagues is explored: they reveal God’s name not only to Israel but to Egypt (and the world).
  • Dr. Jackson’s “proximity” reading of the plagues is discussed—each plague moves closer, from external world (Nile) to the most intimate and personal (boils on the body).
  • The group connects this to biblical themes of God’s presence: life-giving for those who love Him, destructive for His enemies.
  • Quotes:
    • “He is not looking for just a submission that you would submit to Him out of power... He’s looking for a relational submission.” – Host [40:57]
    • “The presence of God... will be painful to experience if you’re not in relationship with Him.” – Host [48:10]

11. The Manifest Presence and the Eschatological Vision

• [47:12–49:21]
  • C.S. Lewis’s The Great Divorce is referenced: two groups experience God’s presence entirely differently, depending on relationship.
  • The episode ends as they set up for the next installment (the Passover and the blood of the lamb).
  • Quote:
    • “God’s presence is moving in and getting closer and closer... That’s probably the bigger eschatological vision of the kingdom.” – Host [48:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Last night I was on the... Yeah, I was like, oh, wow, this is relatable. The one thing that kept me going last night was thinking, this will be a great cold open tomorrow.” – John Luke [08:08]
• “The covenant of God does not depend on the faithfulness of man. It depends on the faithfulness of God.” – Host [15:24]
• “He already kind of tells at the very beginning, this is going to end really badly. But then you gotta go back and go through the process because he’s given them an opportunity to repent at every step.” – Host [17:23]
• “The intention here really is for Moses... to tell the people what the name of God is.” – Host [21:10]
• “When God gives His new name Yahweh, I am who I am, it’s bringing it down to the personal.” – John Luke [25:00]
• “Monotheism... Yahweh is the best God. He’s the God of all gods.” – Host [28:55]
• “There is a participation... that Pharaoh is engaged with demonic forces.” – Host [35:42]
• “He is not looking for just a submission that you would submit to Him out of power... He’s looking for a relational submission.” – Host [40:57]
• “The presence of God... will be painful to experience if you’re not in relationship with Him.” – Host [48:10]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:05–06:05] – John Luke’s “personal plague” dog story
• [09:13–10:37] – Invitation to join the Exodus online course
• [11:17–14:24] – Moses’ fear of rejection and real-life parallels
• [14:24–16:16] – Explaining covenant theology through Genesis and Exodus
• [19:09–27:00] – The significance of God’s name and relationship
• [27:00–33:39] – Demonic powers, other “gods,” and spiritual warfare
• [36:15–40:57] – God hardens Pharaoh’s heart: seeking relational, not fearful, submission
• [42:43–43:24] – The “proximity” reading of the plagues’ escalation
• [47:12–49:21] – Manifest presence, C.S. Lewis’s The Great Divorce, eschatology

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Tone & Style

The episode is a mix of humor, warmth, and deep biblical reflection—combining everyday struggles with theological insights in the Robertson family’s signature Louisiana storytelling style. The conversation is accessible but theologically substantial, designed to engage both new and seasoned believers.

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Invitation

Listeners are encouraged throughout to join in the journey by studying Exodus with the Robertsons via the free Unashamed Academy course, fostering a sense of community and shared spiritual growth.

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Transcript

[Host 1]

Father God, we love you, Lord. And we're thankful that we get to dive into your scripture here. This story of Exodus is just so powerful for us, God. We're in it, Lord. Even though this is a story that happened thousands of years ago, we're in it. But, God, at this time, we are victorious, Lord. We have been delivered, Lord. We are covered by the finished work of Jesus Christ, Lord. So I just pray you'll speak through us, God, as we talk about this today, Lord, and anybody that's going to listen to this, we just are praying, God, that you would already go before us and be cultivating the hearts of the thousands of people that will hear this, that will be a part of this, that are taking this course with us, that may see a social media clip, God, that it would spark a curiosity for life in your kingdom, Lord, and that people would come to know how much you love them and how much you desire to live and dwell with your people. So we ask this in the name of Jesus.

[Host 2]

Amen. I am unashamed. What about you?

[John]

So I'm running on about two hours of sleep.

[Host 1]

You are right now.

[John]

I slept from 2am to 4am last night.

[Host 1]

What was the problem?

[Guest]

Cause he was studying Exodus so much.

[John]

I was studying Exodus.

[Host 2]

You were so into Exodus.

[John]

I was so into it. That was part of the. That was part of the problem.

[Host 1]

Well, this is our art. Let me just say this before you tell us what's going on. On, but this is the Unashamed With Hill sale, which. The courses are free. You're taking them at 2 to 4 in the morning or not? No. You're taking them up till 2?

[John]

I was taking them from 1 to 2 and then from 4 to 5.

[Host 2]

When you're young dads, it's so funny, Zach.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

You know, they have to, you know, I'm like, I just clear everybody out of my house.

[Guest]

The price is free. But it did cost you.

[Host 1]

It cost you something. So although we're telling you you can go, you can go. Subscribe to the course atunashamed for hillsdale.com. it's free except nights like last night.

[Host 2]

So you were.

[Host 1]

But you were just pouring it. I'm so proud of you, man.

[John]

Yeah, no, that actually wasn't it. I knocked. I ran through this pretty quick.

[Host 2]

Then now we're getting.

[Host 1]

So you weren't in the heart of Exodus?

[John]

No, I wasn't in the heart of Exodus.

[Host 2]

But you were in exile.

[John]

No, I was in the plagues. What's even worse was it wasn't even the kids it was the dogs.

[Host 1]

Oh, gosh.

[John]

So first, to preface, my dog, Timber has cancer. He's got a tennis ball sized tumor on his neck which is causing. Which he's mostly fine except for he has explosive watery diarrhea. And that combined with the, the Walmart delivery came in. Mary Kate brings it all in the house, but she doesn't put it up. So the dogs just tore into that like food. Oh. So they ate like four chocolate bars, like half a raw chicken. Like they like got into the flour, like everything. So they were really good about telling me when they need to go out. And Timber had explosive. Just through a, like, I mean, as.

[Host 1]

As it sounds like a play.

[John]

I know, I know. I was about to say the play. I was about to say it from literally probably 10pm until 7am this morning.

[Host 1]

Are you like cleaning up after him?

[John]

No, just taking him out. And that was every, about every 30 minutes he'd come in, I'd be laying in bed, he'd come in, he'd lick me, he. We'd walk outside, just, I mean, power washer outside. We'd come back in, go back to sleep. 15, 30 minutes later.

[Host 1]

I do.

[Guest]

But she's never had vertical diarrhea.

[John]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1]

You got a bunch of dog. I don't do, I just don't do inside dogs, you know, that's why. Because I don't have our dogs.

[Guest]

Like, she's like seven pounds. She's like a little fluffy. Multi.

[Host 1]

Little.

[Guest]

Yeah, she's really cute.

[John]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Well, how big? What is Timber?

[John]

He's like, what kind of dog is he? He's a half Australian shepherd, half poodle. He's like medium.

[Host 2]

He's like a separate.

[John]

He was £30.

[Host 2]

Doodle.

[John]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Hypo. As a h. Hypo. Hypoallergenic.

[John]

Yeah, he was 30 pounds, but now he's like 12 pounds because of his case.

[Host 1]

That'll get you.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah. Well, and.

[John]

That'S what I'm saying, all the Walmart stuff.

[Host 2]

Yeah, it's such a, it's such a next generation situation because there's so much of that. I can't even relate to the Walmart deliveries. I mean, just the things you talk.

[Host 1]

Well, y' all don't do inside dogs.

[Host 2]

No, you got dogs, you got dogs.

[John]

We know you got dogs.

[Host 2]

You know, I got dogs. They're all outside.

[Host 1]

Like just dogs and kids, they destroy things.

[Host 2]

But if my dogs had explosive diarrhea, I just would never know.

[Guest]

You can make the movie Pets about like our neighborhood.

[Host 2]

I mean, I, I tip my hat to John, like, you're. You're a compassionate man. You. You love animals, and that's good, you know.

[John]

Well, my other option would be just cleaning up from the inside of the house.

[Host 1]

No, you don't.

[Host 2]

At least it was outside.

[John]

At least it was outside. At least he was waking me up.

[Host 2]

Well, I feel better about my night now. You've made me feel better. See, sometimes hearing the lament of others makes you feel better.

[Host 1]

It does. I feel.

[Host 2]

I'm encouraged.

[Host 1]

That encouragement, your misery, encouraged me.

[Host 2]

See, we're like Joe's friends.

[Host 1]

I was going to say. What did you. You said. I really thought that. What did you do wrong?

[Guest]

What did you do wrong?

[John]

I was. I don't know. I was cursing God all night, though. I was like, why, God?

[Host 2]

Why?

[John]

Well, why have you put me through these afflictions?

[Host 1]

We actually are in the plague.

[Guest]

Mary Kate said, curse God and die.

[Host 2]

Yeah. What have you done, Joe Blue?

[John]

Oh, yeah. I didn't curse God. Yeah, No, I was. I was questioning the.

[Host 1]

Questioning God, which, you know, in Egypt, when the Israelites were in the plagues.

[Host 2]

Now it's actually a perfect lead into that.

[Host 1]

Well, they got a channel. My inner field we used to do. We get in these cold opens when Phil was on the podcast, and he would not participate in them. Like, he would just sit there and.

[Host 2]

We'Re like, cigar story.

[Host 1]

Oh, we're telling stories.

[Host 2]

He's just staring. You know, we're funny stories.

[Host 1]

And I'm like, gold. And we're all dying, laughing. Feels like, hey, boys. On that note, John 17, he would just, like, go straight in the scripture.

[John]

He.

[Host 1]

He didn't.

[Host 2]

Like, sometime when it went too long, he said, hey, Saturday Night Live over. I mean, can we get to.

[Host 1]

One of my favorite ones was when Phil goes, jace had this whole bit called D E D. Was that it?

[Host 2]

Yeah, don't ever do.

[Host 1]

And it basically was like, if you ever see me in public, don't like. But it, like, the way it came across was like, didn't come. It didn't hit. Well, yeah. And Phil's just sitting there. Jace is doing this whole thing. And then Phil's like, well, Jason, I want to tell you about this right here. No man should think more highly of himself.

[Host 2]

He just gives them these sharp scrutin rebuke, you know, as a way of getting out of the segment.

[Host 1]

Why did it come out?

[Host 2]

That wasn't what I was talking about. But you missed the whole thing.

[Host 1]

Well, we're in Exodus. So this. So we're back at the Hillsdale courses. We did the first two, which is lecture one. Lecture two. Now, we're going to combine. In this one, we're going to actually combine lectures three and four, because they're both on.

[Host 2]

Yeah, the Plague.

[Host 1]

The Plague. So this will be like a lot of material, but we're going to go through. We're not going to read all five chapters, but it's essentially Exodus if you're, if you're following along and taking the course with us. This will correspond to lecture three and four, which I think is chapters five through 10.

[Host 2]

Yeah, something like that.

[Host 1]

Which is. Yeah, there's a lot here. I mean, that's why probably you were thinking about John Luke, you were thinking about these plagues. You're like, wow, you got to experience a little plug.

[John]

Last night I was on the. Yeah, I was like, oh, wow, this is relatable. I. At least the one thing that kept me going last night was thinking, this will be a great cold open tomorrow.

[Host 2]

You're starting to think like a podcast host now, John. Like, you couldn't reverse the plague, though.

[Guest]

It is weird that you couldn't reverse the plague.

[Host 1]

You couldn't reverse it, but when you're.

[Host 2]

In, you could have reproduced it.

[Host 1]

Well, just like I used in the last episode. I'm always looking. I saw that burning couch that was being consumed in the middle of West Monroe, and it was like a blazing, amazing fire. I thought burning Bush.

[Host 2]

Podcast story.

[John]

We are in the word.

[Host 1]

In the word.

[Host 2]

Jace actually takes. He has a thing he carries around with him and makes notes of his everyday life because he is like, thinks of himself in a job like situation because everything that happens to him is the worst thing that's ever happened to any human in the history of humanity.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I mean, and so he takes notes of it. And literally he's a cold, open machine because we'll sit down and we got four podcasts. He's like, oh, I got, I got it covered for all of them.

[Guest]

Okay.

[Host 2]

And sometimes the whole podcast is his laments.

[Host 1]

You know, for the most part, people have, they, they, they, they like that we get more interaction here. Although I got accused of being the new Jays, of talking too much. I did talk. The other guys saw you got accused for not earning your spot in the Robertson family. But there was pushback on that. People like, yes, he has. And I think you guys stay tuned for season two.

[John]

Season two. That guy sees it.

[Host 2]

Season two is being called Al never gets the emergence of Christian. It's like Christian's coming out.

[Host 1]

But for the most part, I think you guys have received this.

[Host 2]

Well.

[Host 1]

And yeah, it's really encouraging to see how many people have signed up to this course. It's crazy. There's a lot of our audience is taking this. There's thousands of people that have signed up for these courses. So they're taking them with us. So that's really, really cool.

[Host 2]

And in all seriousness, that's what this is about. I mean, studying the Bible. And we talked about this and we told, you know, when Dr. Jackson was here, we told him that it's a living, breathing, active document, letter, love letter, I guess is what I call it. And so every time you go back and you dedicate time to it, you're going to learn and you're going to be challenged. You're going to. And you're going to grow. So we're glad you guys are coming along for the journey with us because I'm learning a lot, which is really good.

[Host 1]

Well, so that we're entering into the scene where Moses, now he's coming back into Egypt and he meets up with Pharaoh and he, he gives him that, that thing first.

[Host 2]

He has to. First, like he's got to meet with his own people.

[Host 1]

Yeah, true.

[Host 2]

Which you think about for him is 80 years, you know, what were you going to say? What was it?

[Host 1]

No, I was just going to set up the, the tax that he in to basically make that famous line, let my people go to Pharaoh. But yeah, he had to go to his own people first, which is, I mean, you think about intimidating. I mean, because last time he tried to lead people in Israel, that didn't go so well. They were like, you're the guy that, hey, no, we know who you are. You're the guy that murdered that guy.

[Host 2]

John Le was talking about this before he came on air, that he, he was probably more fearful about that initially because you remember, he was raised Egyptian. And so that idea, I mean, you know how it is. Like, I thought about it, you know, we discovered. Or actually Phyllis discovered us. And so she's 44 years old, which is similar to Moses. Age when all this started for him was at 40. And she came here and went to church at WFR to hear dad speak. And now she's pretty convinced this is her dad, but we know nothing about this. And so she's like approaching this, but she's so scared. Like she's out in the parking lot and won't get out of the car at first. And Tony goes in and then he comes back out. So just, I mean, imagine the drama of all that. That's just for her to try to maybe meet us, maybe. And so she's so fearful in that. I don't know if she's fearful of rejection. I don't know what exactly the fear was, but I've always thought about that in relationship to this text. Because you see this, like, this is your. This is your family, this is your people. And yet at the same time, you're so distant because you don't know. And so you're trying to bridge that gap. And so she never gets to dad. She only gets to Jace, who, for whatever reason, somebody's insane, put him in charge of a church service, but they did. And so he was in charge that day and he was kind of running things. And dad spoke and she hands him the letter, the now famous letter that but never told him, but never said, like, I might be here. She's just like, you know, could you get this to your dad? It's just really important. And of course, Jace is like everybody else that comes along, handsome, say, yeah, sure, and slides it in the Bible and that's the end of the story. And so then it took, you know, weeks before we finally discover. But that, that trepidation, that fear. So I. I get it. Like, going to your own people, your own people. And that's what he's doing. I mean, that's how he starts this. So he's got like this looming thing he has to deal with. But first he's got to get the.

[Host 1]

People on board, right?

[John]

And the last reaction we see of Moses and his people, they reject him because he kills the Egyptian, thinking, oh, I'm. I'm gonna, like, save these people. You know, he's like, I'm coming into my own. And then they make fun of him.

[Host 2]

What, are you gonna kill us too?

[John]

You're gonna kill us too?

[Host 1]

There's not only the fear, and then he runs. So precedent of rejection, right?

[Host 2]

Exactly.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Well, and also, is it not foreshadowing what's gonna happen? These people? I mean, let's face it, you talk about a hard group of people to lead because every step becomes this, like, fearful, you know, of course we're looking ahead, but, I mean, they are going to be a bane of his existence, you know?

[Host 1]

Yeah, I want to say these people, but it's actually, it's our story.

[Host 2]

Well, that's why it goes back and forth. Your people, my people, those people, this people. It's like, I mean, wherever you are in the moment is the level of frustration. I can. Every time I get into a study in Exodus, I Think about all my years of ministry. Because you love people. It's why you do this. It's why we do this podcast. But then people are very difficult because we're messy. We have our moments.

[Host 1]

It's one of the things about covenant theology that I do like is that I know it gets a bad rap from some people, but I'm a believer in covenant theology mainly because when you read this story, you realize that there's a real issue with humanity, a belligerent disobedience over and over again. So if the covenant is dependent on my faithfulness or the faithfulness of humanity, then we don't have a chance. And I think the big story in Exodus and the whole Bible for that matter, is that the covenant of God does not depend on the faithfulness of man. It depends on the faithfulness of God, and that's why it's accomplished. And you see that back in Genesis, even with the sac. And you'll see it in Exodus, too, whenever there's some sacrificial systems that happen later. But in Genesis, when Abraham cuts the animals in half and then they're going to walk through these divided animals.

[Guest]

The blood covenant.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that blood covenant. And saying, if I break this covenant, may this happen to me. And then Abram never walks through. God puts him to sleep, and God's presence moves through. So God's saying, if you break this covenant, Abram, may this happen to me. And that's exactly. That is what happens. In the end, it's foreshadowing that Christ is going to take on the suffering of man. Christ is going to take on the penalty. And I think all that's here. So God's covenant is not dependent on our faithfulness, because as we're going to see here in this story, they're not going to be faithful ever. By the way, if you want to take this course with us, it's free. You can sign up for unashamedforhillsdale.com we're in the Exodus story right now. We do want you to take it with us, but. Yeah. So we move in. And then.

[Host 2]

Well, he gives a little bit of, you know, Dr. Jackson talked about, and I was interested to hear Yalls take on it. He gives a little foreshadow he had talked about. You know, he drops early in about the. That the firstborn, like there's death coming. He gives this picture of the end of it. And even before you even get started, remember, he's like. He gives that idea that this is going to end poorly. And then we Start back through all the different plagues. And I did think that was interesting because it's like a movie, you know how it's going to end, but you have to watch it because it's like, you know, it's interesting the in between. And that's the way he described this whole plague situation, because he already kind of tells at the very beginning, this is going to end really badly. But then you got to go back and go through the process because he's given them an opportunity to repent at every step of the way. First the people, then the other. So it reminded me of the Titanic. I was always intrigued by that as a kid. So then they come out with a movie. We already know what's going to happen. I mean, the Titanic's going to sink. The shocker would have been it was like, oh, it didn't sink. You know, a fresh take on the Titanic. You knew what was going to happen, but you couldn't help yourself. Watch the movie because it was like, now they could do it in such a way you could imagine being on the boat. And. And so I think that's the same way here. You know, this is going to end poorly. And yet at the same time, you're intrigued by the process to get there. And these plagues, as they go along and they play themselves out, they just. Every step of the way, you're like, why would you just. Why would you not relent? Like, how do you just continue to say, one more, give me one more, give me one more. You know.

[Guest]

Did you practice that?

[Host 2]

Was that.

[Guest]

No, that was. That was a really good connection.

[Host 2]

No, I. I just. That was great. That was very poetic.

[Host 1]

That guy's been preaching for a long time.

[Guest]

That. See, for me, that. That was one. I would have had. That one would have been written down.

[Host 2]

In my notes somewhere.

[Host 1]

Either had to practice that.

[Guest]

Yeah, Titanic compared to Exodus.

[John]

You would have done that one in the mirror.

[Host 2]

I wrote the Titanic down in my notes. I did write Titanic because I thought about it as he was describing. I said, that's like the Titanic. I mean, I love it. I can go back and watch it again. But I still. Not. It's still going to end badly. The guy's going to drown. He's going to.

[Host 1]

Yeah, these historical stories.

[Host 2]

Yeah, exactly.

[Host 1]

I mean, even the blind. We. Everybody, we know. We know how it is.

[Host 2]

You know why? It's because this is. This is. This text is epic. I mean, this is an epic story. And that's why the Ten Commandments. I don't know. Did you ever Have y' all ever seen the original with Charlton Heston, the Tinker? See, it's so old now, it would be new to y'. All. But, I mean, that was on national television for 40 years. Every year at Easter or whenever they would run it, the country would watch the Ten Commandments.

[Host 1]

Isn't that something?

[Host 2]

Yeah. And now that's like a lost thing. But before, it's like everybody knew because everybody watched. It's an epic story.

[Host 1]

It's a big story. Well, I think it's interesting as he gets into these plagues, and we talked a little bit about this yesterday, about hardening Pharaoh's heart. There's this whole thing going on with Pharaoh. To me, it's shrinking, maybe shrinking down, maybe not shrinking down. The story to at least think, what's God ultimately trying to accomplish here? And I think there's a little nugget in chapter six that is more than a nugget. I think it's a key text in the story of Exodus, of the intention of God, of what is he actually trying to accomplish here? And I mentioned it briefly in a previous podcast, but in verse two, listen to what he says. The Lord, he comes up to Moses, and let me back up. I'll read verse one, too. Now you shall see. This is God speaking to Moses. What I will do to Pharaoh. For with a strong hand, speaking of that hand of God again, he will send them out, and with a strong hand, he will drive them out of his own land. And God spoke to Moses and said to him, I am the Lord. Verse 3. I appeared to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name, the Lord, I did not make myself known to them. And so God, in this moment, he's basically telling Abraham, I mean, sorry, Moses, that I appeared to your forefathers and I did, like, meet with them. And we went through Genesis, so we know all those times that he did meet with them, but when he met with them, he only identified himself as God Almighty. So it's more of like, this is maybe who I am, but I'm not really telling you my name. I'm not making this personal yet. My name, Yahweh. The Lord. I am what I am. Or what was the. I will be. I will be there.

[Guest]

Howsoever. I will be there.

[Host 1]

Yeah, like that. He hasn't told anybody that yet until at the burning bush. And so he gave that to Moses. He said, why did he do that? Well, he established. He said, I established my covenant with them and gave them the land of Canaan. So he did give them the covenant with. But there's an intention and a purpose of what he wants to ultimately accomplish. And he says it right here in verse 6. Say therefore to the people of Israel, I am the Lord, I'm Yahweh, tell him my name and I will bring you out from the burden of the Egyptians. And so the intention here really is for Moses, his main calling is to tell the people what the name of God is. And you think about how that goes all the way into the New Testament and you get to like the whole, there's no under name by which men can be saved or repent and be baptized. Actually every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ. So you see that fullness and completion come in the name of God. That's why when you say, ask in my name and it will be given to you. The name of God is central to the story because it's the name of God that I think identifies real presence. Because even as Dr. Jackson I thought was one of the best points he made that Exodus 3 portion that manifest in the name of God is the manifest presence of God. And not just in the name. Even like if I know your name, then we're on a different level. Right. If I know about you, that's one thing. But if I know you by name and I can call you, I got your name in my cell phone, like where that, that's a different level of relationship. And so I think what, what's happening here is, is this story is, is it's anchoring in the name of God into human history and we're going to. And we're talking about it here today, thousands of years later.

[Host 2]

Oh yeah, absolutely.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And you know, I think. Did y' all ever see the movie Stargate? Kurt Russell was in it. This is probably a 20 year old, 20, 30, 25 or 30, probably 30 year old movie. And then it was a television show after that, I think. But it was the concept was they created this device that could like create a wormhole portal. Yeah. And so the whole thing was kind of based on that. But the idea was, is that somehow that had been created by an alien that was like. And the alien looked like an ancient Egyptian and you know, and they would come and so back in the day. So it was like some other place. But then they came to Earth. It was like they had been here before. And I couldn't help but think about that, that concept behind It's Just a Movie. But I wonder if that came from this idea Here because he talked about Pharaoh possibly and this idea of fallen on angels and this God stuff, you know, like we're all gods and, you know, all these abilities that they supposedly had. And there may be a lot of truth in that. We don't really know. You know, you think about the Nephilim and all the stuff in the other parts. What was left over here in terms of all this interaction? But they're, you know, we call them. People are intrigued by aliens, but I mean, they're beings from another realm that have definitely had a lot of interaction. And you see it in ancient time. So I wonder about that. And these abilities that these magicians had, because we get into these things and somehow they had the ability to do some pretty amazing things. And I don't know if that was by some sort of other realmly ability, if it was all just smoke and mirrors, what was it? But there's something here that these guys had and then they were limited, you know, so I don't know. What do y' all think about?

[Guest]

There's a difference between, you know, doing a car trick and making a staff turn into a snake. I mean, there's, you know, there's deception, but then there's also. That's just crazy.

[John]

Okay, I have a thought. Before I say that, I want to go back to what Zach said about the names of God. And Dr. Jackson said this. He says in the theme. But I think it's more clear when you actually read it, the name of God. When he says God Almighty, that's what's translated as El Shaddai. And that's what they talk about, God Almighty, which is like a representative of God's power. Like what God is saying when they say El Shaddai, they're saying like, God is the most powerful. But then when God gives his new name, Yahweh, I am who I am. It's like bringing it down to the personal. Like, I am all powerful, but I'm also with you here now and forever. It's like going from this idea or a guy representing himself as like this force, almost as you kind of see him in the old. In the. In Genesis, down to like, I am a personal being who is looking at you and talking with you and wants to walk with you through this, as.

[Host 2]

Opposed to just something nature, which in that movie I was tuned so that it was raw, you know, the God of the sun. So. And which was typical because it was like, what's the most powerful thing in our creation? Well, I'm the God of that well.

[Host 1]

If you think about, like, the. The difficulty in all of this is, well, El Shaddai, God all powerful. Then when I think of that idea, then whatever El Shaddai is, it's other than other than, right?

[John]

But it's up there.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's up there. But then when you. Then you say, well, no, no, it's. It's. His name is Yahweh. Well, now you. Now I'm like, we're talking about personality here. We're talking about, like, well, that's a little more contextual and has texture and I can maybe interact. You see what I'm saying? But it's like the.

[Host 2]

You got the God of mercy and the God of judgment, which brings up. These are interactive situations, right?

[John]

You take that all the way to Jesus, who God saves, or Joshua, then to Jesus, God saves. So you've got. You go from God Almighty to I am with you, to I am saving you.

[Host 1]

Well, even.

[John]

And there's tons of other names.

[Host 1]

Well, I was thinking about Acts 17, which Dr. Jackson brought up, I think, when he was in the podcast with us, that who's going to judge the world? I think he said this in the podcast. I know we talked about this, but all his students, when they ask that question, they're like, God the father. Well, Acts 17 says that he will judge the world by the Son. I thought he was going to save the world. I think that this is kind of the heaven and earth thing. It's all this. The hard part about walking in the kingdom is that we typically want to go either or, and it's actually both. And the kingdom is not yet fully realized, but the kingdom is here. You have another podcast called Not Yet Now. That's the whole concept. So we're holding these things. I don't even know if tension is the right word. We're talking about the God of the cosmos.

[John]

It's complicated.

[Host 1]

It's complicated because he is a God that's other than. And he is a God that condescends. And so you're even seeing it in the Exodus story. But to your question alone, I think that when he talks about the definition of monotheism in the course, I thought that was really helpful because I've struggled with this a lot. When you start thinking about other religions and you can get into conversations with a lot of different religions on what monotheism actually means. And Christianity, when you get into the Trinity especially, people are like, wait, three gods, one God? It gets a little wonky. And it's a very nuanced Discussion. Because the teaching in the Bible is that God is a triune God. That is very clear in Scripture that Jesus is God and he's a different person than the Father and the Holy Spirit's a different person than the Father and the Son, but they're all three equally God. But it's essentially one in being and then three in centers of consciousness, or three persons in one being. But I think this is interesting because Michael Heiser was very helpful for me in this reading his book the Unseen Realm, when he talks about these fallen angels or this divine council that's in. And some of this goes into the Book of Enoch and other places as well.

[Host 2]

And he mentions that in the lecture.

[Host 1]

He does mention it in the lecture. So I think there's a correlation here with Heiser's work. But the word for God is Elohim. Elohim. And so there are references in the Bible of other Elohims than Yahweh. So then you say, well, are there other gods? Well, the Bible would say, yes, there are other gods. So when we say monotheism, it's not that. There's not these other Elohims, there's these other beings that are celestial and that have powers and they can do stuff. You know what I mean? Monotheism. I love the way he says this, is that Yahweh is the best God. He's the God of all gods. He's the. He's the self. So when we think about monotheism, what we're saying is that God, that Yahweh is the ultimate reality and any other lowercase Elohims were created by him and any dominion that they have, it's borrowed dominion that God.

[Host 2]

And we want to say it's just ancient times, ancient texts like this, but are we still not having battle of the Gods to this very day? I mean, there's billions of people that follow another God.

[Host 1]

I think so.

[Host 2]

Than the one we do.

[John]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

You know what I'm saying? I mean, we would say, oh, you just need to understand who God really is. And we try to explain that in Jesus and how the. In the Bible. But there are billions of people that think there's another God.

[John]

Right.

[Host 2]

Our God's better than your God. So it's still. It still goes on even to this day.

[John]

Yeah. When you see that word Elohim, you see it translated differently. Throughout the Old Testament, you see it translated as God, as in the Lord God. You see it translated as like God's messenger.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[John]

Which is like some, some Passages translate it as Jesus or like the word, but then you also see it translated as an angel. And so you see it all these different ways. And to that point too, like we, we, us at this table right here, especially Zach and Al, like us didn't grow up in a tradition of Christianity that was very spiritual. Like, we, we had a very, I don't want to say negative, but critical view of very jaded. Any. Anything spiritual. Yeah, anything that is outside of like God, Jesus, it was like that's not.

[Host 1]

Even the Holy Spirit.

[John]

That's what I'm saying. The Holy Spirit is iffy, like, is barely there.

[Host 1]

The Holy Spirit, we were taught, only speaks through the written word. And then, I mean, I mean, I remember hearing that as a kid, like he speaks to the Bible. But then other than that, like, so if he's not speaking and moving out, then there's certainly, there's no.

[John]

Certainly angels and demons and anything else.

[Host 2]

Well, the way it was taught to us basically is, well, the flood just dealt with all that and that's the end of it.

[Host 1]

Yeah, right.

[John]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And so it was over. But it's not because it's still around. But he gets it to use this.

[John]

Even us and even like have. Especially in the south, like, we kind of don't see that a lot. But when you talk to missionaries in Africa or New guinea or like all those places, there's all kinds of weird stuff going on. And I've talked to missionaries who, they'll tell me some stuff that, I mean, they're trusted, legit, even headed people that'll say things like people, you know, transforming or speaking different languages or disappearing, like all this crazy stuff, you know.

[Host 2]

Larry Bose, Larry Bose is on the podcast telling us about these visions, all these, you know, evacuees and refugees were having, all having the same dream over and over and over. You know, who is this person I keep dreaming about, you know, named Yeshua. Named. I mean, they're doing it in Farsi. They're.

[Host 1]

So it's like it's happening quite a bit.

[Host 2]

Quite a bit. So I mean, that's a movement of, you know, God is moving in that situation.

[John]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

By the way, make sure you guys, if you want to take this course with us, you can sign up for [e-mail] it's free. We're in the study of Exodus. We're going through the plagues right now. And this is the question, though, I think it hits at the center of the text here too. But I was reminded of this verse In Ephesians, chapter six. And this is for us, for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this presentation darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. So you see, Paul's instruction is that there is a celestial cosmic realm that is actually orchestrating some of these things.

[Host 2]

And that was written some 2,500 years after what we're seeing, after this is happening. I mean, so obviously it's going forward.

[Host 1]

And even in the US I think if you walk through the streets of the town that I live in, I think you're going to see some serious.

[John]

I'm saying, like, Bible Belt evangelical sound.

[Guest]

But you're thorn in the flesh. It talks about a messenger sent to.

[Host 2]

Him to torment him.

[John]

I think how this relates to what we're talking about here in Exodus. It seems like there's a lot of stuff with the spiritual realm that we don't understand. But it seems to me that there's some kind of, like, power where something that an angel or God does allow, or we do as humans, allows evil force to also do, or something that they do allows an angel to respond to that in some way. Like when you see the God do the miracles of the plagues, that allows the demons or whatever spiritual force to respond to that in kind, but not as powerful. And it goes both ways until it gets to the point where God is so overpowering, they can't respond to that.

[Host 2]

I agree 100%, because there's a conniving nature here. And we talked about Pharaoh sort of being a representative of evil that we've seen in the past in the book of Genesis. And you see it like this whole thing with the straw and the pulling back. And there's no doubt he's turning them against each other and against Moses. I mean, his deal is, that's how I'll deal with it. Like I do everything else, I'll just come up with this sneaky little plan. They'll all turn on each other, and before you know it, everybody's back to building, building, you know, stones again. Let's get back to pyramid building or whatever was going on. So it's like, you see this. Whether it's this force that Zach described that's working here in embodiment in Pharaoh, or if he was some sort of fallen, I don't know. But I know that his tactics are very familiar. From what you saw on the COVID.

[Host 1]

There is a participation of that Pharaoh is engaged with demonic forces. Right. I think that's That's.

[John]

I think that's a key point, is that we as humans have to allow it.

[Host 2]

Yeah, right.

[John]

Purposely allow it.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I think he was tapped into something. Yeah, I think it was a real, genuine power, which is very scary on one end. I mean, that scares me because that's like, whoa, that's like Poltergeist and like, you know, exorcisms and all that. Like, oh, that's a little scary. But you have to look at how God responds.

[Host 2]

He has no power against you. And I went to Auschwitz. Did you not feel that there's the presence of evil in a place? It's still there after 75 years. I mean, you know what went down, but, you know, that was pure evil.

[Host 1]

The spiritual forces were soaked into the physical walls.

[Host 2]

It is a covering on your. Your sense, your aura that you feel there.

[Guest]

Obviously, if you look at Pharaoh. So there's a different Pharaoh when Joseph is in Egypt. I'm sure there's a different Pharaoh when Moses was growing up. So Moses returns. Do you think it's the same Pharaoh that was there when he was.

[Host 2]

I was going to ask that question when he was there.

[Guest]

Or do you think it's a. Because I was thinking about Moses.

[Host 2]

I wonder if they knew each other.

[Guest]

That's what I'm saying.

[Host 2]

Because there's a movie, right, where they're.

[Host 1]

Like brothers or fathers.

[Guest]

Because Moses flees looking like an Egyptian, comes back 40 years later. I'm sure he's not still looking like an Egyptian. So I wonder if even Hebrews recognized him, right?

[Host 2]

You know, he looked like a midianite.

[Guest]

He walks into, you know, the temple in Egypt and, like, no one recognizes him, Right?

[John]

I think. I think he. I was thinking about this last night. I think he would have been recognized one because he would have spoken the language and spoken the things that they would understand. And I think that's why to be accepted. I mean, like, if you look at history, like, if you read, like, historical manuscripts or like, see how culture worked prior to the modern age, it was about how you looked and how you spoke. Like, that was the main thing. Like, that's Paul. Like, when Paul gets arrested and he says, no, I'm a Roman citizen, hear how I speak. See my culture. Like, that was how he's accepted. And I think that was what that was. Moses was able to get an audience with Pharaoh because of his upbringing. Because otherwise, why would God not have chosen Aaron? Like, why was Moses the guy versus Aaron who had our. Already had.

[Guest]

The point I brought up last podcast was because yeah, he would have been familiar with the language.

[Host 1]

But you have chapter two, verse 23 says that during those many days, the king of Egypt died and the people of Israel groaned because their slavery had cried out for help. So, new Pharaoh, I mean, you could interpret that.

[Host 2]

Well, it definitely was from when Joseph was there. But was it the same guy? Because remember, Pharaoh's daughter pulls him out of the water, and then Dr. Jackson points out she's still there because she follows him out and becomes part of the.

[Host 1]

That's an interesting thing. Think about as he goes in to do these plagues, though, because I know I do want to hit a couple things that I think were super cool. One, again, Pharaoh's hardening. The hardening of Pharaoh's heart is a big. That's a big thing that's happening here that has a lot of implications in the New Testament even. But I think that hardening is that participation. God says in Exodus 7:3, I will harden Pharaoh's heart. And I think this is the intention of it. And though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you. And then he goes on to say, then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my host, my people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt. By great acts of judgment, the Egyptians shall know that I am Yahweh. So you still see an expansion of God's name here, even to Egypt. So the intention of God is to make his name known, because anytime you read that word, the Lord, he's talking about his name. So now think about, he hadn't revealed his name to anybody up until this point, up until he talks to Moses. And then he's like, moses, I want you to tell Israel my name. Well, then he's expanding that out. Not only is Israel going to know my name now, I mean, this thing's going worldwide. I even want my enemies to know my name. And the way that I understand this is like, that anybody in a coherent state of being, anyone, if their rational faculties are intact, would submit to the power of God in this moment. You just would. Even if it's just out of pragmatic reasons. I don't want to. Clearly, you're the guy. You win. You're God. I submit like anybody would do that. But I think there's something about the character of God is he's not looking for that type of submission. He's not looking for just a submission that you would submit to him out of power. He's looking for a submission. And I Think that's what faith in the New Testament is. It's not a submission out of power and just recognizing that God is all powerful. It's also recognizing that God is all good. And so then my submission is out of faith. It's like, I actually believe that you are the source of true life and fulfillment. And so he is actually hardening Pharaoh's heart because he knows that the power that he's about to unleash, what anybody would fold under that. But he's like, I'm not looking for that type of submission. I'm looking for a relational submission. I'm looking for a faithful submission. I'm looking for. I'm looking for love. 1 John 4:8. I am love is what he's saying. So I think that's the intention. And so he says, I want to make. Because I want you to know my name. Well, the name. Go back to the name. The name is God's manifest presence. It's. I am self sustaining. Yes, but I'm also here, I'm with you. I just don't think we can get away from that.

[Guest]

Yeah, Dr. Jackson also brought up too, like these first couple plagues. He's also trying to convince Israel too that he is the Lord. And it's for the Egyptians, but it's also, you know, he's trying to make himself known for the Israelites. And I think something that I've kind of grew up hearing and he put a different spin on it. But you know, these, these first plagues, you have the Nile. The Nile turned to blood, then the frogs. And I'd always heard it. And I think he maybe mentioned this when we were talking, but he had talked about how most people believe that when God, you know, with the Nile and the frogs, it's to demonstrate power that I'm more powerful than, than these gods at the time, whether it's the frogs or, or the water gods or these kind of things.

[Host 2]

Because everything was in the creation.

[Guest]

Yeah, but he was talking about it more from like a proximity standpoint, which I thought was really interesting.

[Host 1]

Like it was coming in. Yeah, like the Nile.

[Guest]

And then the frogs are. They're inside your house. It smells like death. They're in your rooms, they're in your, your covers.

[Host 2]

Closer.

[Host 1]

Because it gets closer. At first the death is out here outside the camp, and it's like a warning. But the more belligerent pharaoh is the death creeps closer. The proximity of death and even the lice.

[Host 2]

I mean, then it's on your body.

[Host 1]

On your body.

[John]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Then it's on you.

[Host 1]

Like, I can touch you now.

[Guest]

I had always heard it like, God's doing it to, like, show the Egyptians. Like, oh, you think this God's powerful? Well, watch what I do. But he kind of broke it down in an interesting way.

[John]

I think it's kind of proximity. I thought that was really good. And he kind of stops. But then it goes to the lies. It goes from the Nile, which is like, what you see the frogs in your house, the gnats and the flies, which are like, these are on your body. And then the livestock is like the things you're eating, followed by the boils, which is on your body. Like actually inside your body.

[Host 2]

Exactly, yeah. And what do you call a rash? I'd never heard a burning rash was the way that it actually translates out, which was interesting because that was a little bit different thing. But you're right, the idea now that it's actually a physical. Physical ailment, you know. And remember, you see this same type process happen to Job. You know, when you. You see the proximity of Satan's attack, Remember, first it was his possessions, and then. Then it was his children. And then, you know, ultimately it was his physical. The proximity. The evil one did got more and more. You know, the plagues reversed. This time was the evil one did. Yeah, yeah.

[Guest]

I don't understand. After seeing, like, the staff turn to a snake, the Nile turned to blood. Frogs raining down and just everywhere, and then they all die. I'm like, why was it the lice that the magicians were like, surely it is the finger of God. I'm like, if I saw the Nile river turn to blood and just frogs and just stabbed her into a snake, I don't know why lice would be like, surely this is the figure of God.

[Host 2]

Well, I don't know why that one was like. Although if you've ever had a lias.

[John]

Outbreak in your hand, as someone who.

[Guest]

No, it's terrible. But I'm just saying, if I saw the Washita river turn to blood, like, to me, that would be crazier than.

[Host 2]

That would be a much better.

[Host 1]

I think it's about the proximity, though. It's like you're getting close. But think about again, think about this idea of what God is doing in each one of these plagues. The first plague was, I think, a pretty powerful plague, but it was the stench of death. The thing turned into the dire river turned into blood.

[Host 2]

And by the way, this is.

[Guest]

Well, then their food supply too. That was the point he made too.

[Host 2]

And this is the longest river in.

[Host 1]

The world, I think.

[Host 2]

I mean, it's not like, you know, it's not like he picked, you know, Sabine rivers. I mean, like this, a creek. This is the Nile River. It's the longest river in the world.

[Host 1]

Listen to his intention in Exodus 7:17. Thus says the Lord, by this, by turning the Nile into blood, you shall know that I am Yahweh again. So then you flip over to the frogs in Exodus 8 Tomorrow, Moses said, be as you say, so that you may know that there is no one like Yahweh, our God. You go through all these plagues and over and over and over again. When the plague is being laid out, then what you're seeing is that Moses is saying, so that you may know essentially the name of this God, who he is. And so when you were talking about Dr. Jackson, I thought this was a really interesting point. He didn't quite make this connection. But I'm going to make it it, because I'd never thought about. I've always thought about the manifest presence of God on the good side of it, meaning that I want to be in his presence. But that's actually very dangerous. So not everybody should want that. You only want that if you have.

[Host 2]

A relationship with him.

[Host 1]

If you have a relationship with him. So I think what you're seeing in the Exodus story is the presence of God on both sides of this equation. It's coming in. And then this will happen throughout history is the presence of God will become more and more central to God's people. Eventually he'll actually live in human bodies. I mean, but you're going to see a tabernacle, a temple. It's going to keep shrinking down. Like God's presence is moving in. Right. Always. And then that gives life to that.

[Host 2]

So they got the perfect illustration. So this guy from Missouri comes down. He's thinking, well, I just want to get right with God. And so I just need to get to Mr. Phil so he can tell me about Jesus. So he goes down there and scales the fence and comes up to Dad's front door. That was very dangerous. There's no relationship there. And you're uninvited and you're standing at the front door. And so when he meets Mr. Phil, Mr. Phil's got AR.

[John]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

You know, and. And in that moment, I'm sure for a brief second he thought, what have I done?

[John]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And it all worked out for him. But I'm saying it was a dangerous proposition without relationship and invitation to somehow put yourself into the place because as.

[Host 1]

God's name, his manifest presence is being revealed to Egypt, the way they're going to experience that is plagues and ultimately death, exactly the way that Israel is going to.

[Host 2]

Because then that separation starts in the later plagues, remember?

[Host 1]

And I think that's probably the bigger eschatological vision of the kingdom, is that God's presence is moving in and getting closer and closer and closer. And so I think CS Lewis does a great job in the Great Divorce of kind of teasing this out with some good imagery. By the way, if you want to take this course with us, you can go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and we're in the story of Exodus, and you can take it for free with us. We want you to take it with us. It's been very powerful for us. But anyways, the C.S. lewis book, the Great Divorce, the way he paints that picture of you have two types of people that are in the same kind of space, but one people experience it as just complete utopia, and the other experience the same thing as complete hell. And so the presence of God, if you think about this, it will consume you. It will be painful to experience his presence if you're not in relationship with him, and if you're an enemy. And I think you're seeing that in this aspect as. As the plagues move inward. And ultimately it's going to end with. With them having to put the. The blood of the lamb over the door post, which.

[Host 2]

Which we're out of time, so we'll have to get into that next time.

[John]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Wow, that went fast.

[Host 1]

Did go fast.

[Host 2]

That's good. All right, so we'll see you next time on Unashamed.

[Host 1]

Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com and don't miss an episode of the UN podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.