Ep: 1204 | Christian & John Luke Get a Crash Course in Game Show Winning From their 84-Year-Old Granny

Summary

Unashamed with the Robertson Family – Ep. 1204

Title: Christian & John Luke Get a Crash Course in Game Show Winning From Their 84-Year-Old Granny
Date: November 7, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this lively and insightful episode, the Robertson family dives deep into stories of faith and family, beginning humorously with tales of lunch receipts and culminating in substantive biblical discussion. Special guests—including Dr. Jackson—join Christian, Zach, and John Luke to share a heartwarming story about their 84-year-old grandmother's game show adventures, then journey together through Exodus 15–19 as part of their ongoing “Hillsdale Friday” Bible study. The episode weaves spontaneous family banter, theological reflection, and memorable southern storytelling, always circling back to the Lord’s faithfulness and the human struggle to trust and obey Him.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

---

1. Family Banter, Generosity, and Game Show Tales (00:03–07:08)

• The episode opens with playful ribbing over who pays for lunch and who submits receipts, offering listeners a warm window into everyday Robertson family dynamics.
• Notable lunch conversation: Pat Sajak’s connection to Hillsdale College and explanations for younger family members unfamiliar with game show legends.
• The spotlight story: their granny’s legendary run on “The Price Is Right” at age 84.
  • She won two cars, a trip, and a kitchen appliance set, becoming a local legend.
  • The family reminisces about distributing her winnings and the cultural touchstones around daytime TV and game shows.

Memorable Quote:
“She was there for business, and all these other people were idiots, you know, that was kind of her mindset.”
— Zach, [04:10]

---

2. Biblical Parallels & Transition to Exodus Study (07:08–10:44)

• The team smoothly connects their granny's game show plundering to the Israelites “plundering the Egyptians” during the Exodus narrative.
• The discussion transitions to studying Exodus (specifically chapters 15–19) as part of their Hillsdale College collaboration.
• They reference key moments: the Red Sea crossing, the Israelites’ complaints, and the typology of salvation (“our own baptism”).

Memorable Quote:
“Granny plundered. I mean, she plundered the Bob Barker and the Price is Right.”
— Christian, [07:24]

---

3. The Human Condition: Complaining and Forgetting God’s Provision (10:44–13:44)

• Panelists reflect on how quickly believers—even after miracles—doubt and complain, paralleling the Israelites’ wilderness journey and their own spiritual struggles.
• Discussion of spiritual growth: moving from deliverance (the Red Sea) into the wilderness (sanctification) and not being “one and done” Christians.
• Dr. Jackson shares a vulnerable account of his own cyclical doubts and reliance on God through struggles.

Memorable Quote:
“Even if you grow up in a Christian home... you’re still going to struggle at some point with something.”
— Zach, [11:37]

---

4. Temple Motifs, Songs of Deliverance, and God’s Presence (13:44–16:23)

• Christian recounts dream imagery involving ladders and Eden, leading to a discussion on temple motifs and the “Song of Moses” after the Red Sea.
• The theme: God making His home with us (“tabernacling” among people) despite their failures.
• The panel reads and highlights Exodus 15:17–18 as key verses for the entire Bible:

Memorable Quote:
“This is the point of the whole thing. It’s where God is going to tabernacle with humanity... despite our belligerent disobedience.”
— Christian, [15:20]

---

5. Blessing, Disobedience, and the Principle of the Sabbath (16:23–23:21)

• Discussion of God’s repeated provision (manna, quail, water) and the divine tests that followed.
• They analyze how disobedience corrupts blessings—especially with storing manna and it turning into a “plague” (maggots).
• Introduction into God’s Sabbath principle and the importance of rest for all, not just oneself.

Notable Segment:
“Disobedience turns God’s blessings into a plague.”
— John Luke, quoting Dr. Jackson, [19:01]

---

6. Leadership, Frustration, and Human Nature (23:21–27:14)

• Moses’ leadership challenges are likened to modern ministry; no matter how many miracles, people “want to stone” the leader over trivial complaints.
• Reflection on mob mentality, resource fear, and human tendency to immediately forget God’s previous salvations.

Memorable Quote:
“To us, we’re kind of looking at it through the lens of can’t you believe? Look what all God’s done. But it’s so hard to fight that human nature that I got to get mine.”
— Zach, [26:54]

---

7. Typology: The Rock, Living Water, and Christ (27:14–31:07)

• Explains Moses striking the rock and water flowing as a foreshadowing of Christ, building on Paul’s use of the motif in 1 Corinthians 10 and imagery from Ezekiel and Revelation.
• Discusses “living water” and how the entire biblical narrative draws lines from Exodus to Jesus as the ultimate source of life.

Memorable Quote:
“Paul references all this moment in 1 Corinthians 10. But Christ, when Moses strikes the rock, that rock, this is the picture of the Christ.”
— Christian, [28:30]

---

8. Arrival at Sinai, Old & New Covenants, Kingdom of Priests (31:07–36:55)

• The Israelites reach Mount Sinai; Hebrews 12 and Galatians 4 are referenced to contrast Sinai (law, fear) with Zion (grace, new covenant).
• Paul’s use of Hagar and Sarah to redefine who true “Israel” is—children of promise, not merely law-followers.
• God’s declaration: “You shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:6)—the birth of Israel’s national identity and new expectations.

Memorable Quote:
“To understand what it meant to them before we can really get the... we have to put yourself in these people’s position. They don’t know they just got out. They’re thirsty, they’re hungry.”
— Zach, [37:15]

---

9. Sacred Boundaries, Presence, and Mediatorship (36:55–46:20)

• Reflections on God’s holy presence at Sinai—how the people could not approach, paralleling the guarded Tree of Life and the ark of the covenant.
• Discussion of Moses as a mediator and the need for something (someone) to bridge the separation between holy God and sinful humanity.
• Insights on ritual preparation, consecration, and the deep significance of God “coming down” rather than man building up.

Memorable Quote:
“What you have in Exodus 19 is the part... where the sin of Israel is essentially highlighted. It’s the sin of humanity in our particular situation is that God is holy. He sits on his throne. He’s on this mountain. He is near... but there’s a dividing wall...”
— Christian, [43:00]

---

10. The Gift—and the Limits—of the Law (46:20–49:20)

• Transition into the giving of the Ten Commandments; discussing the “goodness” of the law and its intended functions: to show God’s holiness, reveal human need, and point towards the coming savior.
• The “hub and spokes” analogy for the commandments: coveting stands as the root behind violations of other laws.
• The Law provides a way to approach God’s presence but not the power to fulfill its demands; only Christ, by Spirit, enables true obedience.

Memorable Quotes:
“All the nine, nine, the first nine commandments are spokes. And the hub of that wheel is the tenth Commandment, Thou shalt not covet. Because you can’t violate any of the other nine without first violating the inner one of your heart.”
— Christian, [47:21]

"What you’re going to find is that what the law represents... is the way that we get into the presence of God. The problem is we lack the means to do it."
— Christian, [49:00]

---

Notable Quotes & Moments – With Timestamps

• “She was there for business, and all these other people were idiots...” — Zach, [04:10]
• “Granny plundered. She plundered Bob Barker and The Price is Right.” — Christian, [07:24]
• “Even if you grow up in a Christian home... you’re still going to struggle at some point with something.” — Zach, [11:37]
• “This is the point of the whole thing. It’s where God is going to tabernacle with humanity.” — Christian, [15:20]
• “Disobedience turns God’s blessings into a plague.” — John Luke, quoting Dr. Jackson, [19:01]
• “To us... can’t you believe? Look what all God’s done. But it’s so hard to fight that human nature that I got to get mine.” — Zach, [26:54]
• “Paul references all this moment in 1 Corinthians 10. But Christ, when Moses strikes the rock... this is the picture of the Christ.” — Christian, [28:30]
• “All the nine, the first nine commandments are spokes. And the hub of that wheel is the tenth Commandment, Thou shalt not covet...” — Christian, [47:21]
• “What the law represents... is the way that we get into the presence of God. The problem is we lack the means to do it.” — Christian, [49:00]

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:00–07:08: Family banter; granny's game show story
• 07:08–10:44: Exodus intro; comparison to Price Is Right
• 13:44–16:23: Temple motif, Song of Moses, God’s presence
• 16:23–23:21: Manna, Sabbath, testing
• 23:21–27:14: Moses’ leadership struggles & mob mentality
• 27:14–31:07: Typology of rock/water, Christ as fulfillment
• 31:07–36:55: Arrival at Sinai, new covenant themes
• 36:55–46:20: Sacred boundaries, mediatorship, God’s presence
• 46:20–49:20: The Ten Commandments, positive/negative aspects, hub/spokes concept, Law’s limitations

---

Conclusion

This episode is quintessential Robertson-family podcasting: full of laughter, family stories, and spiritual depth. Through tales of their indomitable granny and in-depth discussion of Exodus, the hosts frame the human tendency to forget miracles, grumble in hardship, and try to control blessings—contrasted with God’s relentless desire to dwell with His people and transform them. The Ten Commandments are presented as both a gift and a challenge, pointing faithfully to the need for Christ. Listeners are encouraged to join the ongoing Bible study and reminded that true obedience is possible only through God’s Spirit.

Call to Action:
“Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College... Take the course with us, unashamedforhillsdale.com. It’s free!” [50:54]

---

This summary preserves the relaxed, humorous, and often profound tone of the speakers, offering a clear roadmap for new listeners and deepening the experience for fans of the podcast.

Transcript

[Zach]

I am unashamed.

[Christian]

What about you? So we're back here. We. I just took these guys out to lunch. I paid.

[John Luke]

I'll drove, though.

[Zach]

He's.

[Christian]

Hey, gas receipt. He did that one time. He sent me a bill for someone clean. He sent someone to clean the studio and then sends me the bill. I'm like, well, I didn't want. I didn't want. I didn't think it was dirty.

[Zach]

Well, oh, by the way, anytime you get something like that happens, it doesn't come from me. It comes from that. That woman God gave me. It did come from Lisa, actually.

[Christian]

It did not come from Al, because.

[Zach]

I don't keep up with such. Yeah.

[John Luke]

I don't know what me and John Luke could invoice you for.

[Christian]

Well, I bet.

[Dr. Jackson]

No, we brought our time in. Our.

[John Luke]

Yeah, that's true.

[Christian]

You brought your time.

[Zach]

Well, we were making fun of Zach because, yes, we had Dr. Jackson here and we took him to lunch because we felt bad he had no place to go. He flew out of town. And that goes off because he's, you know, got other fish to fry, other bones.

[John Luke]

Other bones.

[Zach]

And so off he goes to do his thing. And so we were, like. We felt obligated that we were going to take him out to eat. So we did it. Yeah.

[Dr. Jackson]

But then he calls us and is.

[Zach]

Like, where are y'?

[Dr. Jackson]

All?

[Zach]

We're starting this podcast because he's stuck out back.

[Christian]

He can't get in.

[Zach]

He's like. He calls Christian. He's like, hey, let me in. Well, we're doing your job and being a good host.

[Christian]

What you said was, we're starting back at two. I'm like, well, when I left, we were starting back at 1:30.

[Zach]

But. Well, first I said, because you thought I was. Was Christian. Christian handed me his phone, and I said, what. What is it? You said, where. Where are you? I'm not here. And then I said, don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

[John Luke]

The whole time at lunch, he kept saying, man, this is just so much better than breakfast. And we were like, why? You know, he was, oh, Zach's not here.

[Zach]

So today we're. So today we're at lunch and I'm telling the story that he told. Dr. Jackson told me that Pat Sajak is on the board of Hillsdale College. Which I had no idea. And so Christian says, who's that?

[Christian]

That's when. That's when I was like, that was the moment. Not only I'm paying for the man's food, which he, by the way, ordered double. Double Appetizers. Wanted to order double entree that he felt guilty.

[Dr. Jackson]

We're so thankful for.

[John Luke]

Double appetizer was for. It was for all of us, not just for me.

[Dr. Jackson]

Okay, Zach, we're so thankful for you for paying for lunch. But you did say pick the most expensive place.

[Zach]

Whatever you want. Whatever you want.

[Dr. Jackson]

Whatever you want.

[Christian]

I was kind of kidding. And then y' all started like, well, what's that? Y', all, like, seriously debating what's more expensive?

[John Luke]

Jack.

[Christian]

Was it Jax or Jack? John, Lizzie. I think Jax is probably the most expensive.

[Zach]

Then we were gonna go just for the most expensive place.

[John Luke]

It wasn't, you know, it wasn't like a fine dining, you know, steakhouse kind of thing.

[Christian]

No, we had. You had a yardbird sandwich, fried chicken sandwich. Po.

[John Luke]

Boy.

[Christian]

It was. It was modest.

[Zach]

I just had a steak kebab.

[Christian]

You had a steak kebab. You had chicken and waffles and.

[Zach]

But anyway, so Christian doesn't know who Pat Sajak is. Well, now I do, but now he does. And we explained that to him. And then we got talking about daytime television and game shows, which I'm assuming are probably going away with a generation. I don't know that, because maybe young people are into it.

[Christian]

Well, before you say that, we do have to introduce the. This is the Hillsdale Friday episode, which you can go sign up for [e-mail]. we're in the study of Exodus, and somehow we're talking about game time or daytime game shows.

[Zach]

Exactly. Because Hillsdale College never goes out style. And so we were telling. I was telling Christian the story because I knew John Luke had heard it, but he had never heard it, that our grandma. Or maybe it heard it. Our grandmother was on the Price is right about 30 years ago, and she was 84 at the time, and she won two cars and a trip and all this kitchen. A kitchen. So I didn't realize. Zach then explained where these things went, because I had no idea by this time, she didn't live with us anymore. And so. Because she had always wanted to go, you know, just to be in the audience, because she watched this show religiously every day.

[Christian]

Every day since it started for 30.

[Zach]

Years, like, from when she was retired and forward and she was in her 80s and, you know, so it'd been 20 years she'd been watching. And she was excellent on the. Once she got on stage. But she was so country sounding. And I just remember thinking, do we sound like. Do we sound like that? Because, like, in my ears, she said, 500. 500, Bob. 500. 100. 100.

[Christian]

What that means if you're not from the South. 500 means 500.

[Zach]

And there was this college. I didn't tell you this at lunch. There's this college kid that. That you could tell he had done everything to try to get noticed, to get on the show. And he was wearing a shirt that he had had when he was four years old. So, like, the shirt just barely, like, would go. He was a little guy anyway, and the shirt was, like, taped to him. And. And. And then he was running around acting like a wild man, you know. And I said, granny, what about that? I remembered his name back when she got home. What about Tom? And she said, oh, he was obnoxious and despisable because he got on her nerves, you know, he was trying to, like, get on the show. And she was like, oh, like everybody there. So she was there for business, and all these other people were idiots, you know, that was kind of her mindset.

[Dr. Jackson]

Despisable is such a good word.

[Zach]

Oh, it's a good word.

[Christian]

So Amy got the. This. If y' all wondering. Amy got the.

[Zach]

She had to sell one car.

[Christian]

Yeah, she got. Yeah, she sold the, like, the little Taurus for.

[Zach]

Taurus.

[Christian]

Amy got the Ford Mustang, cherry red convertible.

[John Luke]

And she was. When she was 84.

[Christian]

No, no.

[Zach]

She was living with them at the time. So they. They got the car.

[Christian]

We got the kitchen and the painting. My mom and.

[Zach]

And I didn't know that, so that was news to me.

[Christian]

Mom.

[Zach]

I got what my granny would say. The little boy shot at.

[Christian]

Well, y'. All. Which y' all had. But y', all, at that point, y' all were kind of, you know, Duck Commander was established. Y' all were making some money. We were. We were still poor. So my family's role was always, like, we always got.

[Zach]

Were you still in ministry?

[Christian]

Oh, we were.

[Zach]

Yeah, we were. Which Did. Did you. I don't know if your dad realized that. Apparently when I got into ministry, I didn't realize this when I went to school and everything that I had at some point signed a vow of poverty. That must have been slipped in.

[Christian]

Not all churches do that.

[Zach]

Wow.

[Christian]

We grew up in churches of Christ. Yeah, you just. You're gonna be poor.

[Zach]

I signed a vow of poverty because I was. All the times I was dead, and so I didn't realize I was right. I was like, did I do that? Did I actually sign that? And just so I would never make money, but apparently, yes.

[Christian]

So we got all the freebies and hand me downs from the rest of the family. That's. That was. Our mom was the youngest of seven kids.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Christian]

And got that.

[Zach]

But yeah, your dad would be like. They would come in and my grandmother, who always kind of had a tension relationship, I would call it, with your dad, and she said, oh, I guess Gordon's down there hobnobbing at the Sonic.

[Christian]

Yeah. When you're in high rolling, I mean.

[Zach]

That'S when you're high rolling. When you're hobnob.

[Christian]

Back in the day, nobody had money back then. I mean, everybody was fishing and made out of the woods. Nobody's going down to the Sonic.

[Zach]

That's.

[Christian]

That's next level hobnobbing. At this point, we're back in Exodus. I don't know what. There's no segue here whatsoever. So this.

[Zach]

I was expecting you to pull a field. Just read me a verse.

[John Luke]

God provides for the Israelites.

[Dr. Jackson]

The Israelites were poor, and then they plundered the Egyptians, just like Granny did on.

[Christian]

Yeah, Granny plundered. I mean, she plundered the Bob Barker and the. And the Price is Right.

[Zach]

She had a picture, by the way, on her TV until she passed a Bob Barker with her, like, big thing merit that she wore her name tag and it sat on top of her tv.

[Christian]

I feel like that could. This could be a movie. I think it could be about a grand. A country grandma that wins the prices. Right?

[Zach]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Christian]

I think that could be like the mastermind, that kind of vibe.

[Zach]

Yeah, I think I already did. It's called Hillbilly Elegy.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah.

[Zach]

That was a Salty Grandmother. That was a Salty Grandmother. That was a great book, by the way.

[Christian]

Well, we got through the plagues, and the last plague that we got through was the Passover. Right. The killing of the firstborn. Then the Passover. You see salvation for Israel, which then ultimately you see the real salvation of Israel happen at the Red Sea moment where Israel enters into the Red Sea. Of course, they're whining beforehand, begging to go back into slavery, which we talked about in the last podcast. They pierce through the Red Sea when it parts, and then water on both sides. And then that water slams back down on their enemies and swallows up all of their problems whole, which is kind of this idea of our own baptism.

[Zach]

And Paul brings that up. And at first, Corinthians 10, he uses that analogy, you know, because they had the cloud on top, the water on the sides. It was almost like, you know, they were baptized as they came out. Yeah. And there is. There is a lot of definite typology when you think about it, that many times people are delivered from something and yet there are times they would either attempt to or go back into something that, you know, it's terrible for you. Like you were thinking, why would you ever want to go by? I mean, like, you were here generationally, you were in these curses and stuck in Egypt and building bricks without straw and. But then as soon as things got tough, three, literally three days into the freedom, they're like, we want to go back.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Like, I mean, there are not enough graves in Egypt, you know, that we come out here to die. I mean, just the idea. Then he makes the point and I think wisely, it does show you the long suffering nature not only of God, but of leadership, of dealing with. He kept saying God was bringing them along. Remember, he kept talking about how this whole process is like him trying to teach them to do something. And it really describes ministry. I mean, it is that, you see, when you're born again, the idea is it's like a new birth. And so it takes a while to grow into maturity. I mean, you can't expect somebody to come right out of the water of baptism and then all of a sudden have it all figured out. I mean, you got to grow.

[Christian]

It's a process. So, yeah, we're in lecture six, which is Exodus 15 through 19, and we're going to maybe even probably end with.

[Zach]

The giving of the ten Commandments a little bit. Yeah.

[Christian]

And so what's happening here is really. It's what you said, it's like entering into like this wilderness moment. So they've had salvation, but the. But. But the salvation is not fully complete yet. There is that wilderness moment, which I think I can attest to that from my own. Like, when I came to Christ, it was not a.

[Dr. Jackson]

For me.

[Christian]

It wasn't one and done. I don't know, maybe it was for y'.

[Zach]

All.

[Dr. Jackson]

No, not at all.

[Christian]

What was it like for you?

[Dr. Jackson]

Oh, yeah, that's. I mean, I totally relate to Israelites of the. Like, they see all the miracles and then they immediately forget and are like, woe is me. I mean, that was totally me. I mean, I. I had a good life, but I came to Christ, was like, oh, I'm following God. But then, you know, every minor and major inconvenience, I'm like, is God real? Is this all true? Why am I doing this? I want to give up. Even though I've seen the miracles God's done in the people's lives around me, my own life. And then he comes through. And then the next year, it's like a minor convenience. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, am I like, am I still a Christian? Am I still doing this or asking for forgiveness or am I doing the right thing? You know, like we just, as humans, forget.

[Zach]

And I love it that you. You're painting the picture that everybody struggles some. Even if you grow up in a. In a. In a Christian home or in a good environment and strong family around you, you're still going to struggle at some point with something. And for a lot of people, it's like a lifestyle, like I did and Zach did for a while, where you just get into the world and all that stuff. And some people never go there. And you're glad because then you don't have all those bad memories. But at the same time, you're still going to struggle. Yeah, you're still gonna be a challenge. There's gonna be something different. You know, Jace talks about it. He never got into the drinking and that part of the lifestyle. But then he. He became the older brother in Luke 15. You know, he was very judgmental and, you know, just. And struggle with God in that way. Well, why. How do you know? Why should we rejoice when people, you know, they should have been right to begin? I mean, he. He had that mindset mentality, and he said that held him back and he had to be like Christ and learn how to deal with people in weakness. So that in itself can be a weakness.

[Christian]

Yeah. Christian, you said you had a dream last night. Do you remember what you said you were dreaming about?

[John Luke]

Yeah, I had this, like, crazy dream. It was. I saw, like, a ladder, and then I saw Eden, and I just had these crazy temple motifs.

[Christian]

You came in this morning. That's what he tells us. He had temple motifs.

[John Luke]

Well, I texted John Luke last night. What did I text John Luke last night?

[Dr. Jackson]

He said, you ready?

[Zach]

And we know John Luke says, wait.

[John Luke]

John, at 10:30, I said, be thinking about your tempo motifs tonight. John Luke said, it's how I start my day.

[Zach]

So what?

[Christian]

Yeah, they're making fun of me behind my back, but then they tell me to my face that they're doing it, so I guess it's fine.

[Zach]

And it actually came up later in one of the things, because when he says. He says, this is a vivid temple motif. I was like, did he get that from Zach? Like, I thought Zach was the only one that used that phrase. Dr. Jackson said it in the last.

[Christian]

But. But it is interesting when you. When they come out of the Red Sea moment. They have this song that of Moses kind of. It's kind of there before their entry into the wilderness. It's really like a song of like recapturing everything that just happened. It's a beautiful song that was written song called the Song of Moses.

[Zach]

And isn't that cool that the idea that you would. In a moment like that, that the idea is that we're going to stop and sing.

[Christian]

We're going to sing to God.

[Zach]

We're going to sing to God. I mean, that makes me feel so great about what we do now because there's something powerful about singing.

[Christian]

Yeah, they worship. They're worshiping Yahweh and then they're retelling the story. And so we won't read the whole thing. But it's like the first half of Genesis. I mean, I'm sorry, Exodus 15. Yeah, maybe the first three quarters of it. But it's this song. It's all about like what they came out of and the deliverance. But there's like the paintings in there too, right? There's like. It's like a. It's a story of suffering, a story of deliverance. But the last two verses. I'll read these because I think this is the whole point of the book of Exodus. I mean, this is the point of the book. I think it's probably the point of the entire Bible. If you were to circle this in your Bible, Exodus 15, 17 and 18. It gives us the real temple motif. He says, you will bring them in and plant them on your own mountain. So there's that idea of where a mountain is high up. It's where heaven and earth meet. The place, O Lord, which you have made for your abode. The abode. Thinking, this is where I live, this is my house, this is my home. The sanctuary, O Lord, which your hands have established. The Lord will reign forever. So that really is the point of the story of Exodus. It's the story of how God makes his home with us. And so we get that picture here in this song. And that's why the song kind of ends with that. It ends with. This is the point of the whole thing. It's where God is going to tabernacle. Tabernacle with. With humanity is going to. And. And despite our belligerent disobedience, which they just did, we want to be slaves. And we're in. In the very next chapter, they're going to have the bread come down out of heaven and what Israel again. It's like we're going to hoard it up.

[Zach]

And if you can imagine this on a timeline and you're looking at it, this. This song will arch over to Mount Sinai and this idea of the Presence and the Almighty, but really doesn't include them yet, although they're not going to figure that out for a while. And then you've got the tabernacle and the temple. If you could just keep following this over as it kind of shows you a picture of what's coming. But all of that pales to the major arch, which goes all the way to Christ.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Because that's the ultimate dwelling.

[Christian]

Because you don't see the full. You don't see that.

[Zach]

You don't get that until Jesus comes and sends his spirit, as you say.

[Christian]

You see this picture, it's like this Lord's going to somehow build his house, and there's going to be this connection with us. But then you keep reading and you're like, okay, maybe this time. Well, no, not yet.

[Zach]

You know, because the next picture of it is so frightening and scary. When they actually get to Sinai, it's like, you can't even touch the mountain. Forget about. Like, we're gonna all be holding hands, singing Kumbaya. We can't even get on the mountain. And then Moses even says, you told us not to get on it. I mean, he's even telling God. But it's that picture and that idea. And you said this in a previous podcast, Zach, and it was good that we can't stand the glory of God, apart from knowing who God is. It overwhelms. It kills us. I mean, Moses was desiring this. And he gets. He even gets to see the back part of him, and he's glowing like he's nuclear. I mean, that's how powerful the glory of God is. You can't we just say, oh, yeah, we'd love to be a part of that? It's like, well, you got. It's going to take something on my part for you to be able to get there.

[Christian]

Because it's got to be. I think what that means. It's got to be. You have to enter into his presence from a position of, yes, I see your holiness. Yes, I see your sovereignty, your power. Yes, I see that. But then the other caveat is. And I see your goodness. I think that. I mean, I don't know how y' all view this, but that original sin seemed to me to be more of a lack of trust. Right? It's a lack of. I don't actually believe that you're good. Like, yeah, Your intentions aren't good for me. So you can't enter into God's presence without that in mind. Or he says they can't eat from this tree of the knowledge of Good and evil and live forever. They can't do that. That's not going to be good.

[Zach]

By the way, at this point, he's still competing, by the way, with the other gods that they just left. So we're just now establishing that he's better than the other gods. And some aren't so sure about that, as we'll see when we get to chapter 32.

[Christian]

And just real quick, guys, if you want to be a part of this study with us, which we highly encourage, you can take these courses. We're lesson six today, and maybe we'll get into a little bit of seven, too. In the Exodus course, you can get it unashamed for hillsdale.com sign up, it's free, and you can jump into this course with us.

[John Luke]

Yeah, it's so interesting to me, too, because you have. Like I said, they're. They're murmuring before they get to the Red Sea. You know, like you mentioned, there weren't enough graves in Egypt. And then they're murmuring after they get to the Red Sea. Then you just keep seeing this repetition, Right. Then God brings manna and quail, and then they're disobedient with that again because they're trying to collect too much. So, yeah, you just continually see this thing. And I thought he had a good line. He talked about how disobedience turns God's blessings into a plague.

[Zach]

Yeah, that was good.

[John Luke]

I thought that was just. Yeah, unpack that.

[Christian]

What is it again? Disobedience. What does it say?

[John Luke]

Disobedience turns God's blessings into a plague.

[Zach]

Because the manna, remember, is there and he's told them how to do it. Don't get more than you need. Don't hold it over, because then you'll think it's by your hand. And then they did it. And then it turned into maggots. And then it's like they created their own plague in their disobedience. Which is a brilliant point. This is exactly what they did.

[John Luke]

Yeah, yeah. Because all the excess that they had.

[Zach]

In the morning, everything was a stink of death back in Egypt. And now we've brought that with us. Yeah.

[Christian]

Which is maybe because this is the. To receive his blessing is to receive the truth that God, that He is good and that manifest presence. As you read and chapter 16, verse 6, when it comes to the Bread, it says, Moses and Aaron said to all the people of Israel, at evening you shall know that it was Yahweh who brought you out of the land of Egypt. So again, you're seeing that name of God tied to his intention and purpose of making it known. And then when he talks about, at the end of that, he said, at twilight, this is also in the same chapter, you shall eat meat, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread. So God's provision, right? God's going to take care of you. Then you shall know that I am the Lord your God. I'm Yahweh. So this intention of God wanting to reveal his name, it's like the continual thing that pops up throughout the whole entire story, right?

[Zach]

But also, Luke, you mentioned earlier about sometimes the blessings of God can become so second nature to you that you forget about how great they are. Because he doesn't get into this, because it's later in Exodus. But there comes another time where they're like, ah, you know, man and quail.

[Dr. Jackson]

Like they're sick of it.

[Zach]

I mean, we're sick. You know, at least back in Egypt, we had some onions, you know, something spicy. You know, it's like, really, I mean, like, so now all of a sudden this, you know, God wafers and delicious quail. And then, remember, it's just. And then God's mad at the beginning. He's like, oh, you'll eat it till it's coming out of your nose, you know, and it's like you just. You take it for granted. But we do the same thing. I mean, it's like we see blessing and then sometimes we're just think it's us. We think somebody has by our own end. And so it happens continually.

[Dr. Jackson]

I think this, this verse in this is 1524, I think, kind of sums up this next section, like, gets us closer. It says, the people grumbled against Moses because they didn't have any food. And God showed them slog and they threw into the water, and then the water became sweet. Then it says, and the Lord made them a statue and a rule, and he tested them, saying, if you listen to the voice of God, which is right, I'll put none of the diseases on you, but I will be your Lord, and I'll be your healer. And that idea of like, testing or training, teaching a lesson, and then providing something good with the water, with the manna, with the water again, to me it feels like God's like, I'm going to give you these small things, these small tests of Obedience to show you that, like, if you obey, even if it's. You think it's arbitrary, that's going to turn out to be good. And then that leads up to the Ten Commandments, which ends up being life or death for them. Of, okay, you've seen me give you water. You've thrown the log in the thing. You've seen me give you food and not gathered it up. You've seen me say, strike the rock, and you struck it. I gave you more water. Now I'm going to give you these commandments, you know, even if you don't know why I'm telling you to do it, if you follow it, it will turn out good.

[Zach]

Which is the only explanation for why he would tell them not to gather manna on the seventh day, right? That was just to prep them for the Sabbath principle, which. Which I loved the point he made about that, that. That and Jesus makes the same point. Remember, Jesus kept getting into trouble because he would heal on the Sabbath or pick heads of grain. And he was like, man wasn't made for Sabbath. Sabbath was made for man. And the principle was here. I mean, God didn't need to take a day off from creation, but he's shown us all along that we need a day off. And I love the point Jackson made about it. He said, it is not just for you, because remember, your kids couldn't work, your servants couldn't work, your animals couldn't work. I mean, it's a break for everybody to have a better relationship. And he even made that point when he got into the Commandments, which I think is a brilliant point.

[John Luke]

You got to think about how confusing it would be for Moses, too, right? Because you have all the plagues, you have the Red Sea, you have the man and the quail. And then all of a sudden, the people are like, we're thirsty. And then Moses just like, they want to stone me. I'm like, just think about that from a human. It's like you do all these things, and then it's like, then you're fearful that they're going to stone you. And like, I just picture Moses being like, like, what more can I do for you people? You know, if you've ever worked for.

[Zach]

Them, if you've ever worked in ministry, you know how he fails?

[Christian]

It's like, feed me, see more.

[Zach]

Because you go, perfect example. I walk in, I'm excited, I'm preaching, I got a sermon to preach. And some guy says, why are people wearing hats in here? I don't know. But you know What?

[Christian]

I don't care.

[Zach]

I don't care. But you know what I'm saying? I mean, like, to that guy, in that moment, that was the most important thing. But to me, who had prepared for a week to present something to help lead people to a closer walker of Christ, I don't care about whether somebody's wearing a hat.

[Christian]

Well, I mean, think about that idea. What continues to pop up is I want you to know that it was me, the Lord Yahweh, that brought you out of the land of Egypt. You didn't bring yourself out. You didn't muster. You didn't part the Red Sea. You didn't do out. You didn't deal with Pharaoh and get him to relent and allow you to leave. You didn't provide the bread from heaven or the quail. You didn't provide. And now they're at that moment at the rock where they're like, we're thirsty. They're still. It's like. I mean, you kind of get Moses's frustration with this. I think people want to kill me. And then what's interesting of that story is that when Moses, in that frustration and in his anger, because I think this is a pivotal moment right before Sinai, that where you see the futility of this whole system. Like, this whole. Like this is not going to work because of the belligerence of the people, the belligerent disrespect and disregard for the provisions of God. Like, just over and over again, it's like, what else can I do? And I don't think there was a level to which God could.

[Zach]

Maybe if you take the spiritual element out. Zach, it's the mob mentality.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Because you remember we did the movie Torchbearer, and you were talking about the French Revolution, and so the original mob that turned it over, guess what? It didn't take long before that mob got turned. All those leaders all got lost their heads.

[Christian]

Yeah. Maximilien Robespierre, who was the initiator of the French Revolution, in terms of the revolutionary fighters, he was the guy, and he was the one that instituted the guillotine.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Guess how he died?

[Zach]

Guillotine.

[Christian]

The guillotine. So they end up turning on him. So that is the mob mentality. And you see, but it's the mentality of humanity.

[Zach]

Exactly. That's why I'm saying it's. The humans tend to do that. And so out of things we don't like or out of fear or out of whatever, then we want to turn. Everybody's like, oh, what's going to happen. I mean, you can watch it. Like when we were up during the hurricane, like, I started feeling, like scared within 12 hours because I'm seeing groups of people gather together. They don't have food, they don't have gas, there's no power. And they're starting to get together and you can just sense it. You can feel it. There's a desperation. The hoarding begins and then you tend to just kind of take your little family and pull them close to you and like, I gotta get out of here. And it just. All that would take was 12 hours of a disruption, 12 hours into life.

[Christian]

Post civilized society, without, like, just the fear of not having resources in the future. Like, people start acting really crazy.

[Zach]

So just from a human standpoint, I get this. Like, to us, we're kind of looking at it through the lens of can't you believe? Look what all God's done. But it's so hard to fight that human nature that I got to get mine. And you mentioned the timing. They were only three days after the song we're singing, we're worshiping. And again, three days. Here we are three days later, we're thirsty.

[Dr. Jackson]

My other point about that, I thought this was funny. When they complained about wanting to go back right after coming across the Red Sea. It's like, where would they go? Like, they turned around and it's water. And they're like Moses.

[Zach]

That's a good point.

[Dr. Jackson]

So we don't have to be able to superstructure.

[Christian]

A really good point.

[Zach]

Yeah. There's nowhere to go.

[Christian]

Like, the only way you're getting back through is the goddess.

[Zach]

Heaven's going to be burned. The ships have been burned, right?

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah. Like, we have to split the thing again.

[Zach]

And do we have to give back all this stuff? All this stuff we took on the way.

[Christian]

I want to keep my plunder. Where you wind up in Exodus 17 is you actually wind up with a picture of failure and even Moses. Failure in striking the rock. Right. Because the idea was if you strike this rock, then water is going to come out. So the solution, and I do think this is prophetic of the few. This is a prophecy here because it gets mentioned later. Oh, yeah. First Corinthians 10, 4 that says that Christ is the rock. Didn't you mention First Corinthians 10 long ago? So Paul references all of this moment in First Corinthians 10. But Christ, when Moses strikes the rock, that rock, this is the picture of the Christ.

[Zach]

That's that cornerstone.

[Christian]

That cornerstone, yeah. And that's where the water is going to flow. So then when you get all the way to the end of the Bible and you actually have a picture of water flowing out of the Ezekiel passage, where the water flows out of the temple.

[Zach]

In John 4, you mentioned where he's talking to the woman with the well. It says living water will flow.

[Christian]

That's temple language. And so if we didn't have that passage. Well, we still would have it. But the passage in Ezekiel so key because he looks under the door of the temple and there's just water rushing out and turns into a river. And that same exact picture is mentioned in Revelation 22. And that water is anything that water touches just blossoms with life. And then there's a tree. And that tree in Revelation 22 has the leaves on it. You can take these leaves from it and it says they're a balm, like a healing balm for the nations. So now we're back to the whole, the mixed multitude, which is what he said.

[Zach]

Right. The healer, you get the same. So all that typology, that's why it's such a powerful, powerful passage.

[Dr. Jackson]

Well, and that brings to mind when Jesus was on the cross and stabbed and the water flowed out of his side. That gives the idea of, oh, we see water flowing out. It's. We're about to see life happen.

[Zach]

Yeah. And then even like Dr. Jackson didn't deal with it, but like in. There's some great spiritual principles in 17. The back end of it when they have this battle with Amalekites, which is interesting. It's the first time they kind of had to fight it out because they're attacked. And Joshua is the first time we see him. He's a military guy. Of course. He's going to wind up being a central figure once they get to Canaan and you see him down there fighting was interesting because again, these aren't trained fighting men. And so they're down there fighting. But really the power is up on the Moses has his hands extended as long as he's reaching up to the Lord again by his hand and God's hand. Things are going well as long as they can see that. But the minute of the hands started going down. Oh, no. And then the Amakite. So it's this back and forth battle.

[Christian]

They're holding his arms and then finally.

[Zach]

They just have to hold his arms up so they win this battle, you know, and it's like he's still showing them like, you're not, you're not equipped for this without me.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And so that comes back around. Be sure and sign up to take the course. Unashamedforhillsdale.com if you hadn't already done it.

[Christian]

I think you see this most clearly when you get to Exodus 19. And this is when they end up at Mount Sinai. And there's a lot in this text here. There's no way we're going to get to it all, but there's a lot here. Again, there's a reference back to 1 Corinthians 10. That's why you need to read 1st Corinthians 10.

[Zach]

And also, I would add in Hebrews 12 is another great picture, because the Hebrew writer says in 18, you have not come to a mountain that can be touched, that is burning with fire, to darkness, gloom, and storm, to a trumpet blast, to a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged to speak no more. He's describing that whole scene because they could not bear what was commanded. If even an animal touched the mountain, it must be stoned. The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, I am trembling with fear. Then he says, but you have come to Mount Zion. So he explains that transition under Christ. But it's a great thing to look forward and say, that's what this was about.

[Christian]

Yeah, that's a great point.

[Zach]

It was in the moment, but it was also about a future moment where all that fear and trembling would be taken away.

[Christian]

When he says, you come to a mountain that can't be. In the Hebrew shoal passage, you come to a mountain that can't be touched. What he's saying there, this is not the physical mountain of Sinai. He's clearly contrasting Sinai with Zion. And Zion's a new mountain. Which comes up again in Revelation, by the way. John the Revelator, sitting on Zion, and he sees the new Jerusalem coming from Zion. So this is like all temple stuff here, right? So what's happening in Exodus 19 is. Oh, and the point's also made that Mount Sinai is. It's actually Hagar. It's a weird thing that the New Testament writers do when they talk about this moment. Where's that at Galatians. Galatians 4. 4, yeah, yeah, let me read that real quick. Paul basically brings this up, this contrasting Sinai point. I mean, Hebrews does it better, but Galatians 4, it says that this may be interpreted as allegory, that these women are two covenants. So you have two covenants going on here. One is from Mount Sinai, which. That's the covenant we're about to read about, and that we're kind of Participating in now with the giving of the Ten Commandments, and then also the book of the. What's called the Book of the Covenant, which is basically the law. And one is from Mount Sinai bearing children for slavery. She's Hagar. Now we're all the way back to Genesis where we started, because Hagar Ishmael, right now, Hagar is, Paul says, is Mount Sinai in Arabia. She corresponds to the present Jerusalem. Think about if you're Israel, I mean, that's like the most derogatory thing that somebody could say to you is that, oh, you're actually the Ishmael in this story now. I mean, that's like. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no. Where are the children of the promise?

[Zach]

Exactly.

[Christian]

Current Jerusalem. Present. Present Jerusalem is Hagar, for she is in slavery with her children. Now, we're all the way back to this Exodus moment, right? We're thinking slavery here with her children, but the Jerusalem above is free. She is our mother. For it is written, rejoice, O barren one who does not bear. Break forth and cry aloud. You who are not in labor for the children of the desolate one will be more than those who of the one who has a husband. Now, you, brothers like Isaac, are children of the promise. And so I think this is so key, understanding these covenants, because when you get to places like Romans, Romans, Chapter nine is a key text for all of this because it clearly is defining who Israel is. And the way that Paul defines Israel is Israel is the children of promise, not the children of the DNA of the flesh.

[Zach]

And the way you know you're right is because the backdrop of why Galatians was written to begin with was because they were trying to add circumcision into becoming a son of God, becoming a Christian. And Paul was like, that thinking is out. And then he went to that graphic links to show that it's not. You don't have to become an Israelite in a physical sense to then become a son of God.

[Christian]

You know how we know this is true, too? How does Hebrews 12 end exactly about the kingdom? You belong to a kingdom that can't be shaken nor destroyed. You say, well, what does that mean, the kingdom language? Why does Hebrews end with that? Because you mentioned Hebrews 12 a few minutes ago, referencing this exact moment. Well, listen to what it says in Exodus 19 where we're at. He says, you. This is verse six. And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Well, that goes back to what we talked about in the last podcast. Why are they eating the meat at the Passover, the lamb at the Passover, because they're priests. Well, who else is going to be a priest? He's saying, you are a kingdom of priests. Israel, you are a kingdom of priests. You are a holy nation. There is a kingdom, language. Then you read that and think, I don't know what all that means. Well, you got to go to what it means to us. You have to read Hebrews to understand what this text means now, because all this is realized in Christ.

[Zach]

And they only. I'm sure from their perspective, they were only seeing this as. Because this first time you'll see this kingdom, lambs being mentioned. I mean, that's a new concept he just dropped on. These people have been enslaved all this time. They've been under Egyptian rule. I mean, Pharaoh was there.

[Christian]

Never had their own kingdom.

[Zach]

They never had their own kingdom. So all of a sudden it's like. So they're thinking kind of like the disciples misunderstood. Oh, that means we're going to now we're going to be the new. Now we're fixing to do some ruling around here. And that permeates their thought process all through the kings and. And the picking of Saul and, you know, going all the way forward. So it's pretty amazing. But. But again, it was never God's final intent. We don't find that out till much later. We, you know, you got to still got a couple of thousand years of.

[Christian]

History to get through this right here.

[Zach]

It's. This is where it all begins, which is popping off.

[Christian]

Wow.

[Zach]

This is like our wheelhouse.

[John Luke]

I just need like, some popcorn. Yeah, I was like, Exodus 19, Hebrews 12, Galatians.

[Zach]

You got in our wheelhouse.

[Christian]

We were like, well, we've been permeating this for a while. So it's like you start.

[Zach]

That's why it's called unashamed for those days about.

[Christian]

It's like, oh, we've been on this kingdom talk for a long time.

[Zach]

But that. That is so important as this being the birthplace of it. But you have to study it. Anything in the Bible we're studying, just like we're doing with this. You have to understand what it meant to them before we can really get the. I mean, we're looking back over this arch of history and able to see this clearly. But you have to put yourself in these people's position. They don't know they just got out. They're thirsty, they're hungry. You know what I'm saying? I mean, like, you got to put yourself in that position.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah, they didn't know what was coming.

[Zach]

There's no way they were coming. They realized it, you know.

[Dr. Jackson]

No, not at all.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Luke]

The funny thing for me is when they get to Sinai and God is telling Moses, you know, you know, tell them not to touch the mountain. And it talks about Moses having faith in the people that they're not going to touch the mountain. And I'm like, what do you mean you have like, you're telling God that.

[Zach]

They'Re not going to.

[John Luke]

What are you talking about? God's like, like, no, stop. Go tell them. Exactly how would Moses have faith in them right now?

[Christian]

Yeah, Moses like, nah, they're good. They're. They, they follow instructions very well.

[John Luke]

I thought Dr. Jackson's point was cool though, tying the, that back to the, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. That, that correlation.

[Christian]

Yeah, I never. That's one thing I haven't quite, I, I haven't quite grasped that whole concept yet, to be honest with you, that, that they would have. People would eventually be able to eat of the knowledge. I couldn't quite. That was a little deeper than I, My mind can't quite go there. I don't fully understand that. Do y'?

[John Luke]

All?

[Zach]

Well, I mean, if, if it was created and it was into perpetuity because they would have stayed alive forever, then I mean, I would assume. He's right. I never thought about it.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah, I mean I've, I've thought about it and heard of it a couple different ways.

[Zach]

They were denied from the tree.

[Dr. Jackson]

Right.

[Zach]

I mean that was the deal.

[Dr. Jackson]

I mean you could take the look on of it. It's all what ifs because we still know.

[Zach]

You know, it's kind of like wondering what afterlife's gon. You know, we won't know.

[Dr. Jackson]

We all know. But you could take the view on it of eventually God created it so it's good. So eventually he would have given it to them and they would have known good and evil. Or you can take it as the act of eating it and disobeying caused them to understand good and evil. Like the good and evil wasn't a substance in the fruit, but it was the act of obedience and disobedience that's.

[Christian]

Teaching them one way or another that the act of eating the fruit and it was even more than just disobedience. Maybe disobedience framed up in the context of it's to dine alone without God because it says they saw that the fruit was pleasing to the eye. So it's almost like I'm looking at this fruit and I want the fruit for the sake of the fruit. So whatever the thing is, it terminates on itself. Instead of being priestly or eucharistic and being more like something that I participate in, in communion with him, to give praise back to Him. I think the presence is the center it all. And I think that's why when you get to this text in Exodus 19, it's so important that what this text centers around is presence. Because what you see is God condescends and he comes and he gets on the mountain. Now that's a big move. I mean, in terms of. Because you think about what were they trying to do in Genesis 11 at the tower of Babel, they were trying to build the mountain up to God, or the tower up to God. But instead what happens here, it's like the reverse. It's not that man goes to God, it's that God comes to man, but it's not quite there yet. It's not what we see in Jesus because he's on the mountain. But then what does he say? Don't come near.

[Zach]

And it's interesting that once again, in 19 we got that three days again because he said, go to the people who's first ten, consecrate them today and tomorrow, have them wash their clothes and be ready for the third day. Here we go again with his third day typologist all the way through. And it's interesting because he told him to watch themselves and don't have sex. No sexual relations.

[Dr. Jackson]

Keep it in the pocket.

[Zach]

You keep in the pocket. And. And the idea again is, why would he choose those things? Like that doesn't make you unholy or holy. But somehow God wanted all attention on the moment. And so it's like the basic instincts of what we would do. He's like, no, I want you to take three days and I want you just to get ready for what's about to happen. So it's an interesting way he approached his people.

[John Luke]

If you view it typologically, is it. Is this because with the amount of transfiguration, right when Jesus was with Moses and Elijah and the disciples. Because obviously, if Jesus is outside of time and space, like, could that theoretically have been the presence that was on the mountain here at Sinai?

[Christian]

Other correlation, I definitely think that the presence here is Christ, or I'll say this is the Son. Christ is the incarnation of the Son. So Christ hasn't incarnated yet. So I think it is the divine Son it's the Son of God. And then when you get to the mount of Transfiguration, you have Moses there, who represents what he's receiving. Right here. Moses is the law. And then the other is the prophecy of the prophet and the law. Prophecy, prophet, law, and then the fulfillment of both.

[Zach]

And somehow the interaction was interesting because as Moses goes up, you know, I mean, like, and the actual law is given. I mean, there's a presence there, but it's not in a physical sense of something, a person. And yet at the same time, later, he wants to see him and he can't look at his face, but he can look at his back. And so then you do get some sort of physical manifestation, which is really interesting. You know, it happens when you get over to 32. And so I don't know, it's. It's one of those things. It's one of those curiosities. I can't wait to find out, because it's going to be some. I mean, like.

[Christian]

Well, what you have in Exodus 19 is the part. It's the part of the story where the sin of Israel is essentially highlighted. It's the sin of humanity in our particular situation is that God is holy. He sits on his throne. He's on this mountain. He is near. I mean, there is some. But there's a dividing wall that cannot be. If you penetrate this barrier, you're going to die. You are going to die. It's the same thing that we saw in Exodus 3. Whenever Moses is there and he sees the burning bush, the bush that's not being consumed, the fire that doesn't need any fuel burning. And he says, don't come any further. Stop. The ground you're standing on is holy. So this is another picture of Stop. But now Moses is invited up because he's that mediator figure. But everybody else. Don't let anybody else come up here. I'm too holy. My holiness will.

[Zach]

And by the way, that plays forward. And Jackson talked about it and, you know, got the Ark of the Covenant was another object that you couldn't even touch. Like, he was like, don't touch this. You touch this, you die. And it happened to some people.

[Dr. Jackson]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And then it even taken them. It would be taken in. But no, they had a certain way they had to carry it. I mean, like, it was a serious business.

[Christian]

So I know we're gonna. I want to say this. Unashameforhillsdale.com you can take this with us. We're in. Which one are we in? Yeah. Lectures six and Seven, six and seven. I want to get to the Ten Commandments real quick. But to get there again, what you have to understand about this moment is that if you just read Exodus 19, then you should think, oh, I mean, that's the feeling you should get. There's not really like a moment in Exodus 19 where, oh, Exodus 19 is a, oh, nobody can come any closer. We've gotten as far as we can get to the presence of God and there seems to be a barrier. Be thinking about that temple motif again. Be thinking about the Tree of Life, which is now guarded by the curtain or by the flaming, the angels, the cherubim with the flaming sword. Right. Nobody comes past this, nobody gets the Tree of Life. Then that's going to become the actual in the tabernacle. But right now, that barrier is right here at Mount Sinai. And so then enter in. Okay. Now what's going to happen is God's going to call Moses up and he's going to actually give Moses over these next few chapters. He's going to give Moses the way that they can make it through this barrier. There'll be more bad news because they're going to realize in just a minute that, oh, but we can't do that. Right. But right now he's at least saying, if you're going to penetrate this barrier, here's the Ten Commandments. And then he's going to give the book, the book of the covenant, but the law. And I want to say this because a lot of times we go back and we read the Old Testament and then we read the New Testament, we would think, oh, Old Testament. Dr. Jackson talks about this. Old Testament is mean God and New Testament is nice God. I'm paraphrasing, he didn't say quite like that. We think the law is bad and then grace is good. But that's not what the New Testament writer says. No, the law he says is actually good.

[Zach]

Yeah, Paul said it several times. Good and holy. I mean, the problem wasn't in law. The problem was in the inability to keep law for everybody.

[Christian]

Yeah. What did y' all think about the Ten Commandments part of Dr. Jackson's presentation? I mean, you kind of said it was pretty self explanatory, but yeah, I.

[John Luke]

Thought it's pretty self explanatory. I think. I thought the point that I thought was interesting was how he went from. You kind of talked about a little bit earlier, like the inverting. Yeah, the reversal of it. I thought it was going from honor your father, mother, which was positive, to like the more kind of negative connotations, I don't really.

[Zach]

Half of them are nos, and half of them do this.

[Christian]

Is that what you mean by the invert? The invert.

[Zach]

Well, he talked about how you could get at the very end, which was don't covet. And then you can start working your way backwards. If you covet, you'll tend to want to bear false witness. You'll tend to want to steal other people's stuff. You'll tend to want to sleep with somebody else's spouse. Ultimately, you may even kill somebody. And at all. He says you could invert that and it could come from either end of the situation.

[Christian]

That's interesting. That's Francis Shaver. He painted this picture in his book True Spirituality. And he said that it's like a will. And all the nine, nine, the first nine commandments are spokes. And the hub of that wheel is the tenth Commandment, Thou shalt not covet. Because you can't violate any of the other nine without first violating the inner one of your heart.

[Zach]

Yeah, and that's kind of his point. Yeah.

[John Luke]

The point he made was cool, because he was. You know, because it's. Because I don't covet another man's. Another man's house, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. And then God finally says, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he's like your neighbor's wife or. Yeah, your wife. I think his servant. His. Yeah, his animals. And then it ended with like. Or anything.

[Zach]

Or anything he had.

[Dr. Jackson]

Anything else.

[John Luke]

Yeah, yeah. I thought that part was funny.

[Zach]

Which, if you think about it, and this is huge, and we're almost out of time, because I thought the lack of contentment is what he's talking about. You remember what Paul said in Philippians 4, I have learned the secret to life, to be content whatever the circumstances. And then he says that famous verse that everybody gets tattooed on. And, you know, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, but he's only reason you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you is if you find contentment in Christ first.

[John Luke]

I think that's what Paul means in Galatians 2 when he says, where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, so does every. Every evil practice. So if you look at that, from the ten Commandments, covet to jealousy, selfishness. Yeah, yeah. Then you. You will lie, you will steal, you will be inclined to do these things.

[Zach]

Which is why it's so important.

[Christian]

Well, we're. I know we're almost out of time. I want to end with this, though, because I Think this is super important because we're rapidly moving through the book of Exodus. This is really like a 30,000 foot overview. But in the Law, what you do see is that you see the way that we can enter into the presence of God. The problem is that it lacks the means. I think I mentioned this on a previous podcast, but when you get to Exodus 24, right before the building of the tabernacle, you see that this covenant that God has made with man is actually confirmed. And it's confirmed in atonement, it's confirmed in the building of an altar, and it's confirmed in the sacrifice of the blood of goats and bulls. And so that 100% is pointing right forward to Christ and the sacrifice of Christ that happens. The Hebrew writer is very good about tying this back together. But what you're going to find is that what the law represents and what the law is, it is the way that we get into the presence of God. The problem is we lack the means to do it. We can't do it, we can't obey it. We can't obey it. The problem is our lack of obedience and what's going to happen with Christ. And if you listen to this podcast, we've been talking about this because we've been in John 14 through John 17 and the coming of the Holy Spirit, that God is going to give us the sacrifice of Jesus. He's going to be the one that's slayed on the altar. He's going to be the one that has sacrificed for our sins, and that he is going to be the one that will be crucified, buried in a tomb, and that will be resurrected on the third day, that will ascend, to sit at the right hand of the Father. And he will send the Holy Spirit, who will live in the new temple of our body, and the Spirit will enable us to be obedient. That's the picture. That's what's going to ultimately happen, is the Holy Spirit of God is going to enable us to be obedient. And you clearly see in this story, when the Spirit wasn't present in the hearts of human beings, they did not have the ability to be obedient.

[Zach]

All we need is a verse of Genesis. Just as I am ready to respond. We'll see you next time.

[Christian]

Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamed for hillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamed for hillsdale.com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed Podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.