Ep 1208 | Jase Gets Roasted By a Fan & Admits It’s Painfully True

Summary

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Unashamed with the Robertson Family – Ep 1208

"Jase Gets Roasted By a Fan & Admits It’s Painfully True"
Date: November 13, 2025
Hosts: Al, Jase (Jason), Zach
Theme: Exploring unity in the divided modern church, biblical literacy, faith, and some much-needed self-reflection—plus a fan’s hilarious roast of Jase with a “drinking game.”

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Main Episode Overview

This episode explores the challenges of unity in the Christian world, grappling with denominational fragmentation, biblical interpretation, and practical faith. The hosts discuss the origins and diversity within Christianity, what true biblical faith looks like, and how personal and humorous moments (including a listener's playful roast of the cast) help keep the spirit light even during weighty conversations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listening Styles & Podcast Banter

• The hosts open with a playful reflection on their own communication flaws:
  • Jase admits he tends to monologue and interrupt others, while Zach concedes that he often pre-plans responses rather than actively listens.
  • Al positions himself as “the glue,” balancing the conversation and keeping everyone (mostly) on track.
  • Jase’s history as a “monologue person” is recounted through a story about evangelizing to a prank caller as a teenager.
• Quote:

  "You've always been a monologue person... When you were like, what were you, 15?...and you started sharing the gospel with [a prank caller] and that went on for like a year."
  — Al [04:00]

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2. Bible Study Methods & Biblical Literacy

• Jase describes his written international Bible studies and the recurring question:
  “What does it mean by ‘the Word became flesh?’” (John 1:14)
• The hosts dive into the complexities of biblical literature, literary forms, and why fresh perspectives matter.
• They stress the importance of helping believers, especially new ones, navigate these complexities with guidance and patience.

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3. Unity, Denominations, and Christian Fragmentation

• Jase unpacks his theological frustration with the thousands of denominational splits in Christianity—rooted not in Christ’s teachings but in human differences.

  • He recounts being claimed by various denominations after his TV fame, which changed his view:

  “I've met tens of thousands...who actually love Jesus. And it changed my view on this fragmentation. I thought, we have to be one in Jesus and let's not get so bent out of shape on these other differences.”
  — Jase [11:46]

  • Al reflects on participating in the pro-life movement as a powerful model for unity:

    “We were always super unified on one thing. Saving babies, helping people in trouble. So that really opened my eyes...”
    — Al [16:48]

  • Zach points out that “calling out heresies” shouldn’t be anyone’s primary identity:

    “If what you’re known for is calling out the heresies of others, I would say that's not a good thing to be known for.”
    — Zach [17:40]

• Discussion on theological distinctives:

  • They acknowledge the reality: differences like baptism, church roles, eschatology, etc., will cause diversity and even division, but should not challenge the fundamental unity in Christ.

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4. The Preservation of the Church & Role of the Holy Spirit

• Zach emphasizes that man-made institutions (creeds, confessions, systems) ultimately don’t “preserve the church”—the Holy Spirit does:

  "Our man-made systems, they may be helpful, but they are no replacement for the Holy Spirit who will preserve his church." — Zach [19:28]

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5. The Painfully Accurate “Unashamed Podcast Drinking Game”

• Jase reads a fan letter from “Lance aka the Dad Dork,” delivering a hilarious and biting inventory of podcast habits, including repetitive phrases, Jase’s interruptions, and Zach's obscure vocabulary.
• Memorable segments from the ‘game’ include:
  • Take a drink when someone says “southern layer,” “rabbit hole,” or “look.”
  • Take a drink when Jase “blatantly interrupts.”
  • Take five drinks if Zach ever apologizes for anything.
• The hosts embrace the fun and admit, humorously, that it’s all in good spirit.

  “We have thick skin and we. This has been our confession time.”
  — Jase [24:14]

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6. “The Chicken” Story & Witnessing in Everyday Life

• Jase recounts a meeting at a card game where his bit about “the chicken” from a previous episode opened up opportunities for Bible study and shared faith among unexpected company.
• This story illustrates how even casual, humorous moments can become bridges for authentic faith-sharing.

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7. Deep Dive: Faith, Promise, and Transformation

• Picking up Bible study in John and Romans, the hosts explore:

  • The nature of faith as unseen trust (Romans 4), and Abraham’s example.
  • Faith as more than belief—it’s trusting God for things “not as though they were.”

    "He’s a creator and a new creator...you’re serving and trusting a God who can make something because he is a creator and a new creator."
    — Jase [45:00]

  • Jase’s reflection on how studying this has “enhanced” his own understanding of faith.
  • Zach’s insight:

    “Faith is not knowing how God's going to do what God's going to do. It's just knowing that God will do what he's going to do.”
    — Zach [49:21]

• They discuss spiritual growth, using the analogy of a child maturing in ways we can’t predict:

  "You have a child and you look at it...but you have no idea what that child's going to look like once it grows into full maturity...that's what faith does."
  — Al [52:35]

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8. Concluding Insights & Encouragements

• The episode ends with encouragement to extend grace to those we disagree with, recognizing all are in process and “faith is a growth process” (Jase [55:30]).
• Jase wraps with a final thought on Abraham’s faith pre- and post-circumcision, showing that faith transcends legal frameworks and predates religious law.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He is the father in the sight of God, in whom he believed – the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they are or were.”
  — Jase (reading Romans 4:17) [45:00]
• On unity:

  “We have to be one in Jesus and let's not get so bent out of shape on these other differences. But when you say that…pastors get nervous.”
  — Jase [11:46]

• On denominations:

  “You kind of smell it though. There are certain groups or people…their whole platform is to call out other groups for their theological heresies…that’s not a good thing to be known for.”
  — Zach [17:40]

• On faith as childlike growth:

  “You have a child…and you have no idea what that child’s going to look like…that’s what faith does.”
  — Al [52:35]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:12 – Communication confessions from the hosts
• 04:00 – Jase’s “monologue evangelism” story
• 07:23 – Understanding biblical literacy and genres
• 11:46 – Jase’s thoughts on fragmentation and unity in the church
• 16:48 – Al on the unifying force of the pro-life movement
• 19:28 – Zach on the Holy Spirit preserving the church
• 21:00 – Jase reads the “Unashamed Drinking Game” fan letter
• 29:09 – The “chicken” story: faith through storytelling and humor
• 33:33 – Resuming the ongoing Bible study in John, Romans, 1 John
• 40:11 – Exploring how Jesus’ resurrection body exceeds human categories
• 45:00 – Deep dive into Romans 4:17 and the doctrine of faith
• 49:21 – Zach’s insights on Abraham, faith, and God’s promises
• 52:35 – Analogy of faith and spiritual growth through the child/parent metaphor
• 55:30 – Encouragement for grace and patience in the walk of faith

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Overall Tone

Warm, self-deprecating, insightful, and humorous. The episode balances deep scriptural study and honest conversation with Southern banter and levity—anchored by the recurring humility and unity at the heart of the “Unashamed” message.

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Transcript

[Al]

So no matter how you slice it, we're definitely in a divided time in our country. There's. There's no way around it. We see it every single day and watch the news. And so I think in this time of division, we have to have consistency that speaking into the values that we believe in. One of our good friends, Tony Perkins, heads up an organization called Family Research Council. As Louisiana guy is a pastor, he has our heart for Jesus. He even did a blurb in dad's book, Theft of America's Soul. And it's just been there for us as a family, but also as a nation. So FRC is standing for what's right. They defend faith. They protect families. They remind leaders that biblical truth still matters. So when others compromise, our friends at FRC stand firm. Because if we lose our foundation, we lose the soul of our nation. Unashamed nation. You guys can help out FRC by defending what matters most by visiting FRC.org unashamed to learn more. Check them out.

[Jason]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Al]

Welcome back to Unashamed. We have. We've been, would you call it passionately discussing this morning, different aspects of the Unashamed podcast. And we've determined one thing out of the three people around this table. Zach, of course, virtually from Black Mountain. I'm the only one that listens to the other people as they're talking. Zach doesn't listen. Jay doesn't listen. Jace will admit it. And Zach finally admitted it today.

[Jason]

He begrudgingly admitted it. It wasn't a full confession. I felt like I was having a disagreement with my wife in a weird way.

[Al]

Well, that's kind of your work wife. I see a lot of stuff.

[Jason]

You know, you're right. Right. But here's. Then. Then it's like the excuse on why I'm not right. So I'm like, was I really right?

[Zach]

What I said. What I said was. I said, jace, you have to admit that you, your dad, Willie. And then I said, and I'll throw myself in the same group.

[Al]

We don't. Begrudgingly.

[Zach]

Begrudgingly, but we don't listen. Well, we have an answer in mind when you're talking, like, if you're telling me as people are talking, I'm already thinking about my answer. And.

[Al]

Well, and in defense, Zach, in defense of that in a. In a discussion already. And thing you do have to think about what you want to say next. So that's. If. If we. If we didn't. We just have a lot of dead air. It's impossible it's impossible. But there is a skill set, and I have it. I have a certain set of skills, and I don't know where I got it, that you can listen actively and still think about what you want. You. I make a little note here, and then when I get my chance, I'm going to jump in.

[Jason]

But I have a problem. I. I talk more.

[Al]

You do.

[Jason]

And so, but look, I'm. I'm acknowledging this, this fault. And so I said what I do, what I've.

[Al]

But talking more is not necessarily a fault because you have good things to say. I think you're.

[Jason]

Well, thank you, Al. See, that's why you're the glue.

[Al]

I'll tell you one unifying group that I love is a group called Family Research council up in D.C. and our good friend Tony Perkins is the leader of it. He's a Louisiana guy. We, we love him. He's been very supportive of us. Back when dad was being attacked, he was one of the first people in. And we love what those guys are doing. They're frontline. They're talking about what we're doing as a church. As the church, but at a national level to try to impact our politics. So we'd love if you support these guys. FRC.org unashamed is where you can go to do that.

[Jason]

What I'm saying is, I told Zach, if you want to have a Bible study with me, which I have a lot ongoing. Yeah, I do it in writing. So I. But I've learned because now I will listen if I'm reading and a couple of the Bible studies.

[Al]

But you've always been a monologue person when you were. You've told the story on the podcast. When you were like, what were you, 15? And some person called us, some prank call or something, and you started sharing the gospel with them and that went on for like a year.

[Jason]

Yeah, you're telling that story just like it's an afterthought. Oh, that was a life changing moment for me. That's like top 10 life change. I know I shared my first gospel.

[Al]

But it was a complete monologue because they never responded.

[Jason]

It was perfect.

[Al]

It was great.

[Jason]

I loved it. So that's where I started. That's where my roots are. And I like that situation. However, when they finally made a noise, it terrified me because there had been hours of silence.

[Al]

And then you heard a sniffle, right? Went under a sniffle.

[Jason]

Yeah. And so what I was saying is most of them are discipleship studies, so they're asking questions and I'm Then going, they're reading a book. Usually we start in John, just like we're doing. And they're reading questions, they're asking questions. And look, always the first question is so amazing. These are different people from all over this globe. And we're having an email Bible study. First question always, what exactly does it mean by the word became flesh? Because you just take it for granted that everybody knows what that means. Here's a guy who's come to Christ, he's in Christ, he's a Christian. It's like, let's read the book of John and just ask questions.

[Al]

Since that's the first verse.

[Jason]

And the first verse, they're like, what's this word stuff? I'm like, oh, boy, here we go. It's like, go ahead and skip down to verse 14.

[Al]

It'll help.

[Jason]

Yeah, it's going to help. But it does show you how we're studying this Bible and how created they were in that. We've heard that so many times. We immediately know that verse 14 kind of clarifies that statement. But if you're just reading it not for the first time, but like, with the first time. On purpose.

[Al]

Yeah, with fresh eyes.

[Jason]

Like, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God. They're like, this doesn't make any sense.

[Al]

Right.

[Jason]

Well, what is the word? Well, it is capitalized. So what does that mean? I mean, that's a very good question. I'm not knocking the question. This is why we need to study the Bible. And you kind of need somebody there to help you along, saying, okay, don't panic. There's a perfect explanation that actually gives this more credence.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And you got to remember, which goes into the debate of how the Bible was written, because you have what, 40 different authors, and that's approximate because there's books, we're not sure who wrote what. Over a span of at least 5,000.

[Al]

At least 5,000.

[Jason]

Three to five thousand, depending on, like. Yeah, when it was written versus when it happened.

[Al]

Because there's some gap.

[Jason]

So you have. And you actually have the thing be somewhat cohesive. And I say somewhat because you also have the mystery factor that this plan of God was not revealed to the spiritual forces of evil. So it's almost coded. There's a lot of apocalyptic, what we call apocalyptic language. What's a better, simpler version of that word? Imagery language, where it's written, picture, form. It's like looking at a piece of art and you get 10 different explanations on what the art is representing.

[Al]

Well, and you've also got the different literary forms. I mean, we're doing a study for Hillsdale with a literary professor. The Guy's got a PhD in this topic. And when you're talking about poetry versus history, historical. I mean, you got some things. The whole chapters in the Bible are just historical things about clans and families. And then you've got letters that were written back and forth, which, if you studied American history, you would study people that did poetry, you would study the letters of, say, John Adams, back and forth to Thomas Jefferson. Well, all that's contained in one book over the whole history of humanity, which includes the history of Israel. So you're right, Jason. It's quite.

[Jason]

And I was listening to every word you just said, because my thought that I had.

[Al]

See, we've already had improvements since we started.

[Jason]

I introduced that I didn't finish was that. But I have a couple of studies or studies I don't like, but I do them where it's. Somebody has read the Bible and it's the same thing. They're so frustrated with what Christianity looks like in our American culture. They either had a bad church experience.

[Al]

Which many people do. Yep.

[Jason]

And they're like, well, this can't be it. So then they go to the Bible and say, well, let me look for an alternative version. And when I'm using the word Christianity, I'm using that in quotations. Because Christian is only used the phrase three times. I think it was three times in the New Testament. And it's in the context of they were called Christians, like for the first time in Antioch, there's one of the references in the Book of Acts. Well, it wasn't like God saying, call yourself a Christian. They were following Christ. And there was a group of people that said, oh, they're Christian, They're Christians.

[Al]

They follow Christ. Right. So it's not a bad term, but it's not the term.

[Jason]

But now, fast forward 2000 years, and Christianity has become a thing, you know, and within Christianity, using it in that way, you have thousands of different groups, thousands, all saying, the guy on the corner, catty corner, who follows Jesus? Oh, we don't agree with him.

[Al]

Right.

[Jason]

And that's. There's a frustration that's happened there that's obvious because I think we've proved by breaking down Jesus prayer in John 17, but there's way more verses in all the letters that the whole goal of Jesus died on a cross was to bring people together that they would be one. And we are doing the exact opposite. We're so fragmented and I'm just being honest. We don't like each other as far as groups. They're like, oh, and I went through that first four or five years of my Christian walk. They're like, oh, no, stay away from that group. I had other people telling me, no, they're wrong on this, they're wrong on that. And you kind of.

[Al]

And half the time you don't even know what's really they teach anyway. I mean, you know what I'm saying?

[Jason]

So I said all that to say, you know what transformed my view on that is when we became famous. Not based on what church we attended, but just having a silly show in a worldly environment. And then all these fragmented groups said, oh yeah, they're with us. Because it was like one of the few times in Hollywood you actually have Jesus following people on tv. And so I got invited by all the different denominations to come speak and I'm like, they just kind of claim me as their own, you know. And so. But what I. My point is, I've met tens of thousands of people from various groups with different names under the umbrella of Christianity who actually love Jesus. And it changed my view on this fragmentation. I thought, we have to be one in Jesus and let's not, let's not get so bent out of shape on these other differences. But when you say that pastors hear that makes them nervous. And the last pastor I told that to was very uncomfortable and awkward because I said it was a big church and I was visiting, I met the pastor and I was like, it was such a big church. I was like, they got what this here? And this guy was a young guy. I was like, look, if you ever, you know, want a safe place to call and just have a guy who will tell you what you think without any kind of judgment or agenda, I was like, you can call me because I'm familiar with how these big churches work and kind of being the guy. Not that I am that role, but I understand it, how to navigate it. And he said, well, what is your. He asked something. Oh, he's like, well, what denomination are you with?

[Al]

Which that was a size up question.

[Jason]

That was a sign to me that we have fragmentation issues. You know, I didn't like the question and I did my typical answer, which as I said, well, the group I'm with is actually one God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. And. And I was being a little sarcastic, but I said, I try to unite people in Jesus. And I didn't give the verses, but I was thinking of John 17, the prayer. I was thinking of all this. Be unified, have one spirit, you're one. Think Ephesians 4 just off the top of my head, all, all these Philippians two, Be like minded, have the unity of the spirit. And I said, I think we should unite on Jesus and don't worry so much about the other stuff. Well, you know what his answer was? He said, well, I think as stewards of the whole word of God that we do need to look into the other stuff. So he's never reached out to me. That kind of ended that party. But you see what I was trying to do.

[Zach]

So al our friends at Tomorrow Clubs are reaching kids in the hardest to reach places like the continent of Africa.

[Al]

Yeah, I've been to several different countries there and, and a lot of it was centered around children. It's a great opportunity to teach young people at a very young age about Jesus.

[Zach]

Yeah. So I want to tell you about Binga. It's a remote and underdeveloped area in the northwest part of Zimbabwe. And there's a 13 year old boy there named Mbappe who lost his mom and he dropped out of school and then ended up turning drugs. But he only cared about one thing besides that, which was soccer. And so when the local Tomorrow club started the games in his village, he showed up to play and before each game the leaders would share about Jesus. And Mbappe found faith in Christ there. And today Mbappe is an ambassador of the gospel in his village. Tomorrow clubs have served 5,000 kids across 40 villages in Binga. Our goal is to double the outreach in Binga by the end of the year, reaching 40 more communities and 5,000 more kids. We want to be a part of this because we believe in long term discipleship. Only cost about $2,000 to start and sustain a club for an entire year. So whether you want to sponsor a new club or just donate a hundred dollars to train a local leader, you are shaping the church of Tomorrow in places like the Binga district of Zimbabwe. Plus, for a limited time, all donations to this bingo blitz will be matched. So join us now and double your impact by visiting TomorrowClubs.org Unashamed. That's TomorrowClubs.org/Unashamed. It gets difficult though when you start a church and the stuff does boil up that you just kind of want to be like, ah, let's just unite. I mean, I do see how it happens because there are theological distinctives that people hold and there's a diversity in that that would obviously lend you to go to a Different type of church. And so I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, because I think it. I think it can be. Obviously, the church has divided quite a bit over theological distinctives and things that I would call tertiary issues, meaning that they're like third tier. They're not like, these aren't like.

[Jason]

But these are not. Well, how do you. How do you size that up with all the verses? If I read all the verses that are talking about us being one, I mean, it's got to mean something. Why. Why is he highlighting that so much?

[Zach]

Because then you're going to get into, like, just take baptism, for example. What is your view on infant baptism versus pedo baptism versus a believer's baptism or something like that? Like, that's going to boil up in any congregation or women's roles, or there's a lot of issues that pop up in churches that you'll hold as a theological distinctive and so. Or even like eschatology. And so I may not want to go to a church that doesn't hold to some of these issues that I think are very important. But at the same time, I may say, hey, you're still a brother. I love what you guys are doing over there.

[Jason]

Yeah, okay, well, there's what I was looking for. You got to have some, because the Bible is really clear on this. I mean, Jesus in his prayer before his death, he's like, he's boiled it all down that they be one and you love one another. That has to be addressed.

[Al]

Well, my thing, Jason, my realization for it came after 25 years being in one spot here preaching and teaching at one place and kind of going through the same cycle. You're talking about, you know, loving the people down the street but thinking, well, they're wrong about this, they're wrong about that. When Lisa and I injected ourselves or the Lord put us into the stream of the pro life movement, that changed me because then all of a sudden I was out places with hundreds of thousands of people, in some cases in Washington and all this. And they were from all stripes, but there wasn't anybody talking about any difference. We had. We were always super unified on one thing. Saving babies, helping people in trouble. So that really opened my eyes to the idea that if we have more of a singular cause that's Christ centered, then we can kind of get. Get away from all that.

[Jason]

I think that's a good thing.

[Zach]

You kind of smell it, though. Like when you're. There are certain groups or people, and I know who they are. I mean, some of them are at least. Because I see I'll when I get on Twitter, it's like the worst or X. But it's like their whole platform is to call out other groups for their theological heresies. And I thought about that. There is a time to do that. But I'm like, man, if what you're known for is calling out the heresies of others, I would say that's not a good thing to be known for.

[Al]

Not unless you're a prophet of the Old Testament.

[Jason]

No.

[Zach]

I mean, but even the prophets, I mean they were calling out heretics, but they were, they were pointing people back to the person of Jesus or I.

[Al]

Guess at least Yahweh.

[Zach]

Yahweh. And so it's a call to who is God? Like your primary emphasis of your teaching and your preaching should be on who is God? And then who am I in him? And then, yeah, you'll deal with heretical teachings as they pop up and as they distort you from that end, which is Christ himself. But the end of our role as a church is, and I thought about this a lot, like you're not going to preserve God's church like he's going to preserve it. The Holy Spirit will preserve his church. And that's why when you look at like denominations and you look at even like creedal systems, you know, we grew up in a non creedal system, but like even the creeds and the confessions of the church of different churches, they haven't done anything to really protect their particular group from going into theological liberalism. I mean, look at the Presbyterian Church. The PCUSA is extremely theologically liberal, but yet they have the Westminster Confession and the Shorter and Greater Catechism. So those confessions didn't do anything to really preserve the denomination. I think that is a lesson to us that our man made systems, they may be helpful, but they are no replacement for the Holy Spirit who will preserve his church. And so I've always viewed a truly non denominational church as a church that is leaning on the lead of the Holy Spirit, which I think is the whole point. When you get to John and he talks about that oneness, the oneness he's talking about is when he's asking the Father for that oneness, he's doing that after he just told us about the coming of the Holy Spirit who would guide us into all truth. And so I think you can't separate the two. The Spirit of God, Holy Spirit of God is more powerful than any system that we can come up with to protect the church. From corruption.

[Jason]

Okay. I had to look back while y' all were talking. I wasn't listening because I was looking up. I got a letter. When did I get this? I got this two weeks ago. And I got to read this because this is. Goes with the spirit of what we just discussed, our weaknesses on the podcast. Yep. Now, God sent me this letter. I'll just. I'll give his first name as Lance. And he. He put. AKA the dad Dort.

[Al]

The dad Dork.

[Jason]

Yeah. You got to be a dork to come up with a letter like this. I'm just saying.

[Al]

And look, I think I've read this.

[Jason]

So here is the problem with the podcast. But he did it in a fun way by playing a drinking game. And he puts in parentheses, non alcohol, because you will see why. So here's the drinking game. He says, when anyone utters the term southern layer, take a drink. When the term rabbit hole.

[Al]

That would be me.

[Jason]

When the term rabbit hole gets used, Take a drink. When any of the Robertsons say, look, but they don't want you to actually visually look at anything. They want you to listen. Take a drink.

[Al]

Hey, look.

[Jason]

When Jace blatantly interrupts anyone on the podcast, fellow host, guest, his spouse, or any other human, I added that part. Take a drink. When Zach uses a word that the listener has literally never heard in his entire existence on planet Earth.

[Al]

Like tertuitary.

[Jason]

When Jace uses the word point in any context. Here's my point.

[Al]

But you just said that a minute ago. Here's my point.

[Jason]

Get back to my point. Did you not understand my point? You're making my point. That's exactly my point. Or I'll say, can I get back to my point? Take a drink. And then at this point in the letter, it's almost over. He puts in parentheses, make sure you have plenty of liquids on hand for listening to the podcast. This is hilarious.

[Al]

Well done, Larry. Is it Larry?

[Jason]

Lance, you weren't listening. When Al reaches for a Kleenex to wipe his eyes because of heavy laughter or the cruel Louisiana allergy season, Take a drink.

[Al]

That happens quite often.

[Jason]

Jace leans away from the mic to either cough, belch, or spit so it won't get picked up on the airwaves. Take a drink. When Jay sets up a joke that falls flat and gets everyone confused. Take a drink. All right. And then here's the final bit. When the unicorn moment happens where someone named Robertson or has Robertson blood. Zach, that's intended for you.

[Al]

Yeah, that's you.

[Jason]

Zach apologizes to anyone for anything, for any reason. Stop what you're doing and take five drinks. And if Zach is ever made to gag live on the air or I'll get stung by any insect, don't drink, because at that point you'll get choked due to how hard you will be laughing. And so, finally, when you hear the phrase, we're almost out of time, finish your refreshing drink because it's been another fantastic episode.

[Al]

Oh, he brought it back. He brought it back up.

[Jason]

Absolutely. Well done.

[Al]

That's very well.

[Jason]

Thank you.

[Al]

Thank you, Lance.

[Jason]

We have thick skin and we. This has been our confession time. It is for the podcast.

[Al]

It's really good.

[Zach]

Hey, Lance is funny. I actually follow him on Instagram.

[Al]

Oh, you actually know.

[Zach]

I know who he is. We. We've. We. I don't know in person, but we've corresponded back and forth, and he has. Well, he sent me a link of one of his little skits, and it was like. How do I say this? It was so bizarre and uncomfortable that it was funny, but. And I felt like that sounds like.

[Al]

Every time I've had dinner with the Dashers.

[Zach]

Well, I mean, if Lance is bold enough to send that scathing yet cloaked and kind of like a humorous. Humorous. Lance has a very. The dad dork has a strange sense of humor.

[Jason]

You've missed this look. I would assume it takes a dork to know a dork. That's why I thought y' all became friends. However, you've missed the point of that. The fact that he could put all that there means one thing to me. The man has spent a lot of.

[Al]

Time he's listening to the honest shame.

[Jason]

So I don't care.

[Zach]

The American health care system is an absolute train wreck.

[Al]

Oh, it's a mess. There's no doubt about it.

[Zach]

In fact, over 100 million people are drowning in medical debt right now, and even more don't have any health insurance at all. And the reason is that traditional health insurance, look, it just costs way too much. We all know this. It's confusing to navigate, and most of the time, it feels like you're fighting the system instead of getting the help that you actually need. Believers have a better way. It's called Christian Healthcare Ministries. I'm actually a member of this. It comes in at about half the cost. And I want to tell you that CHM is a ministry first. It's where believers from all over the country, they pitch in each month to share in each other's medical bills and also just share burdens in general. Because it's not just about getting your bills paid, there's spiritual encouragement and lifting you up along the way. So since it's not traditional health insurance, there's a lot more space to choose the doctors and the hospitals that you trust without having to have a middleman.

[Al]

So, Zach, health cost sharing was a huge blessing for Lisa and I. Last year we went through her cancer. This idea and this idea of having brothers and sisters praying for you as well as sharing in the. In the cost is a great blessing. It's been a great blessing for Lisa and I.

[Zach]

Members have already shared more than $12 billion in medical bills together. So for me, it's a no brainer because I can save a ton of cash and stop feeding money into a broken system. It really just doesn't work. So ditch your traditional health insurance and join CHM today by visiting chministries.org unashamed. That's chministries.org unashamEd chministries.org unashaMed well, I, I'm wondering. I, I'll be honest with you. After hearing that, I'm wondering if he's a real person. If, if he's not. If, if it's not a, like an avatar for. It's somebody. Nah. Somebody in our family that was too close. There's somebody trolling us in the family.

[Jason]

No one in our family would classify themselves as a Dort.

[Al]

And Zach, nobody in our family listens to our podcast.

[Zach]

So there was that part about the apology at the end that hit a little close to home. But he, he, he knew us. He knows who.

[Jason]

He's looked down deep in your soul.

[Al]

Surprised when he hears me apologizing to Pat Benatar in the past podcast.

[Jason]

I thought it was funny.

[Al]

Well, look, before.

[Jason]

Are we going to study the Bible today? Are we just going to.

[Zach]

Yeah, but I want to tell you, you got to check him out on Instagram. It's the dad dork. But his videos are really funny. So I think if you.

[Al]

Oh, so that's a name. That's like his.

[Zach]

It's like a character.

[Jason]

He's. I didn't even know that. And actually he didn't send me that. Let. He sent it to my assistant and she forwarded.

[Al]

Oh, she must have forwarded it to me because I read it. I laughed out loud when I read it.

[Jason]

Well, because my assistant said, you know, she doesn't forward me very many, but she forwarded that and said, you need to listen to this and then put a smiley face. Yeah. So I thought, oh, okay, that's funny. But what I was going to Say is I have a. Since we're beating each other up, I have. I never want to miss the opportunity to say, I was right. I had something happen to me the other night that was absolutely fantastic. You cannot make this up. So I got invited to a card game because I've been self explanatory that I play cards. It's one of the few things in life that I'm good at. And so when I walked in and sat down and I knew everyone there, one of the guys who doesn't play very much, so I hadn't seen him in quite a while, he looks over at me and says, and the chicken made it. And I kind of look behind me because we have another guy who plays in our card game whose name is Chicken. I don't know his real name, but we call him Chicken. He doesn't look like.

[Al]

Aren't there like multiple farm animals?

[Jason]

Oh, yeah, there is. So I thought, well, he must be. Oh, Chicken must have come through a side door that I didn't know about. And then he was like, hey, Jase. And I was looking right at him. He was like, the chicken made it. And I said, have you listened to our podcast? That's the only thing I could think of because I did this long thing about the chicken.

[Al]

You did two episodes about the chicken.

[Jason]

He's like, first episode I listened to.

[Al]

Really?

[Jason]

And then he said, fantastic. He said, look, I have now hooked. Look, the chicken. The first experience. And you know, he said, you know where I'm going tomorrow? He's like, I'm going to a Bible study. I was like, now we're talking.

[Al]

The chicken.

[Jason]

We're now. He's like, that's just so interesting. I never thought about taking it for granted. There's chicken places on every street corner. He started doing my bit, which became awkward. But look, then the audience of card players, we hadn't even started the game yet.

[Al]

And they're like, what's that with the chicken?

[Jason]

Well, the guy to my right, he's like, will you do a podcast? What are y' all talking about? And so then they had to show him how to find a podcast on his phone. And he's, well, maybe I should listen to it. I mean, we talking about chickens. He said, I love chickens. It's like, well, you have to listen to the. It's a Bible study. He's like, the Bible study. Well, I mean, you do that. I was like, why are you surprised? So I just wanted to share that for all of you who have given me that. What would you Call it. I would say seething rebuke.

[Al]

I would say, Jason, I think I mentioned this before because I've been doing a lot of travel lately and meeting a lot of face to face people who love the podcast. And the chicken comes up more than any other thing from the last two months. And look, but positive. Not like they're like, oh, Jay, like chicken. They like.

[Jason]

Here's the best part of the story.

[Zach]

Well, they didn't like the seat belt thing. I know that look.

[Jason]

Ten minutes later, after this thing has turned into somewhat of a Bible study based on this bit, the actual chicken came through the door. The guy named Chicken, and you know what these guys did? Took it as a sign. I said, we were just talking about.

[Al]

And he's like, what?

[Jason]

I did a bit about chickens. I was like, why do they call you chicken? He's like, well, I own a chicken farm. I was like, oh, that makes sense.

[Al]

Well, he would really appreciate that.

[Jason]

That's what they said. Look. Then they started making the pitch to him, and I just moved back and Zach, I just listened. I just listened.

[Al]

Just let the chicken talk.

[Jason]

This is how Jesus takes over the world. It started off talking about Jesus to people who had no idea. I didn't even know that they were even interested in the Bible or said Jesus. And now all of a sudden, they're like, learning how to evangelize in this moment. So I thought it was a positive.

[Al]

That's pretty interesting. I like it. What was it? It was a red chicken. Wasn't it the red chicken.

[Jason]

Red chicken, yeah.

[Zach]

What was the Bible study?

[Al]

The red wing chicken.

[Zach]

We should try to get into one, I think.

[Al]

Let's get into one.

[Jason]

You're talking about what it. The. What the evolutionists say. What was that? The.

[Al]

It was a red something. Yeah. Don't worry.

[Jason]

No, we have to.

[Al]

Oh, good night.

[Jason]

But go to the Bible study and I'll look it up. All right, I forgot what it was.

[Al]

Let's talk so Jace won't listen. Zach. So we're in. John 19 is where we left off. Actually, Jason, we left off at a place and Zach, maybe you can lead us in if you can remember what you were going to say. The very last podcast, we were into this conversation about the crown of thorns, and Jase made the point that the Greek word is not just wearing, but bearing, which is a really interesting thought when you think about the crown of thorns. And so he went through the whole bit from 1 Corinthians 15, which showed the star. You found it.

[Jason]

The red jungle fowl. 8,000 years ago from Southeast Asia.

[Al]

There it is.

[Jason]

Supposedly the origin of what we call the chicken. Right? I'm like, well, what was it? Billions of years ago? It's gonna be hard for me to get a chicken. They're like, they have some dinosaur they pinned it on. I just never seen a dinosaur that looked like a chicken. But that's just me.

[Al]

But they're saying that then they became the birds and all the other stuff, too. So we were in 1 Corinthians 15 talking about this idea of where to bear, and you mentioned something about Amazing Grace origin. Do you remember, Zach, what you were thinking? Because you were going to bring that up in this podcast. And then Jace had Romans 4:17, and then we talked about 2 Corinthians 5. So I was just trying to pick us up where we left off last time in that discussion, because we didn't quite finish it.

[Zach]

What was I going to say? It was John Newton who wrote Amazing Grace. And I can't remember what the point. Whatever it was you said.

[Al]

You said.

[Jason]

You brought up second Corinthians 5.

[Al]

Look, I did that.

[Jason]

Says who wasn't listening. I remember two days ago. And you said, because I want to get into Second Corinthians 5. And I went, ooh, please do.

[Al]

I said that, Jason.

[Jason]

All right, well, let me give my point.

[Al]

While Zach's thinking about the Rama, he brought up the Amazing Grace origin into this discussion. But now you can.

[Zach]

What was it? I tried to think what it was. I think it was because we were.

[Al]

Talking about bearing the new body, the resurrection body, being like Christ. That was our.

[Jason]

Let me read it again. Because that verse was so good. I actually shared this with my son last night because, look, they were doing a Bible study on First John 3.

[Zach]

I should.

[Jason]

And I said, I should have brought up first John 3. 3. That's a good one, because it went in with my point. So let's revisit that in review. I'll read the first John 3. When Jesus. When John.

[Al]

Scratch that.

[Jason]

When John shared in First John 3, he said, how great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God, which is where we're at in the process. Why is Jesus being ridiculed, abused, wearing a crown of thorns, spat upon? I mean, this is God displayed, demonstrating his love for us and so.

[Zach]

That.

[Jason]

We could all be children of God. And it says, and that is what we are. And that is what we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it didn't know Him. And I think that fits perfectly to where we're at in John 19. Do you really think that they believed all these powers, the Jewish leaders, Pilate, Caiaphas, that they knew who he was?

[Al]

Yeah. No idea.

[Jason]

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. What does that mean? Well, if you read Romans 8 talking about that, when it gets that we have the Spirit who groans and then we are waiting on the redemption of our bodies and talking about as children of God, we're brought into the glorious presence of God and liberated with the creation itself in that little section in Romans 8. So it's all about children. That's what we are, children of God. So what we will be has not yet been made known. That's going to be a key phrase on where we're going with this. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. So they were doing a Bible study on that. I said, oh, did you bring up first Corinthians 15? Just did a podcast on that. And he's like, no, do tell. Look, we had a one hour Bible study last night that started right here. It was awesome. At about 11 o' clock at night. And this is First Corinthians 15. We read this last podcast. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth. And as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

[Al]

So, Zach, the holidays are here. Our good friends at Ph.D. weight Loss have kind of taught us some things, right? I mean, about what it means to lose weight and be healthy.

[Zach]

I hear it everywhere I go, man, you've lost some weight. Yeah, it's been great for. For me, for sure.

[Al]

And for me as well. I've lost about 75 pounds. Been on the program for 43 weeks and it's been great. And I don't really have to worry about the holidays because I'm a part of this PhD plan and I never imagined that I would be this healthy. No starvation, no endless workouts, no risky drugs or shots. Just a smarter science based system that works. So if you're watching, here's me at the beginning. Here I am now doing crazy things. Like Lisa and I yesterday went on a long bike ride and worked out together on our 41st anniversary. And I don't think we've ever done that on an anniversary. So definitely a life change. It's been good for me. So right now, For November only, PhD weight loss is making it even easier to get started, so you want to get the jump start. They'll waive your consultation fee, add two weeks to your program for free, and even cover the cost of your food just for booking. You'll get their five steps to reset the scale book for free. Mention code2026 start when you call Ph.D. weight loss at 864-644-1900 or you can visit myphdweightloss.com that's 864-644-1900 tell them that Al and.

[Jason]

That just echoes what we just said. First John 3 and this is in the context with what kind of body will we have? Then I made the point of verse 49. The same word that's used for Jesus wearing the crown of thorns in John 19 is used here twice. And just as we have worn the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we wear the likeness of the man from heaven. And the problem with understanding one what that word means, whether it's to bear something or wear something. The problem in First John 3 when it says what we will be has not been made known. There's not a word in the English, Greek, Hebrew, or any language on the planet that could accurately describe what Jesus new body is. Because we're now this is why I'm.

[Al]

Going to Romans 4 because he only spent 40 days here in that body. Not near enough time for us to really understand.

[Jason]

Now we have some clues. He said, look at my hands and my feet. But then he went through a door. Yeah, well how does the hands and feet go through a door? Yeah, he then elevated without a rocket. They didn't have rockets back then. But he just went whoops, levitate.

[Al]

And then he looked like a gardener and all of a sudden he looked like himself. How's that?

[Jason]

He did that a couple times.

[Al]

A couple times.

[Jason]

Then he ate some fish. Yeah, well how can you go through a door and eat fish? And I guarantee you he could probably go through a door while eating fish. So how are you going to describe okay, well can I just read my verse and then I'll let you debate me? Because boy, I hope you push back on this one.

[Al]

Be thinking about what you want to say. Zach, I have not even listening. You're not even listening.

[Jason]

Zach, I have literally enhanced my view and definition of the word faith based on this study that started last week. I thought, boy, I missed that my view of faith was so limited. I always just used it in an argument saying, hey, we're not under law, we're law of faith. I was just using it as a Step for God's grace to save me. Like it was some step I had to get. Oh, yeah, we're saved through faith. Like it was. No, when you read a verse like what I'm fixed to read, faith is way more than you can comprehend in a short period of time. And this verse just wowed me, and I'm not sure how I missed it in Bible school. We should have stopped and did a whole course on this. So here we have Romans 4, and I'm not going to read the whole chapter. It's very dense and complex and talking about the very thing I say that I argue with people about all the time. Are we under law or is this now through. Has Jesus introduced this way of faith?

[Al]

Because that's what the first three chapters were about.

[Jason]

Well, right. Think Romans 8 when it says we're not under the law of sin and death, but the law of the spirit of life, you know, through faith. And Zach, how many arguments have you had about that in your life?

[Zach]

More than I can remember.

[Jason]

But what's this little nugget that's right here in the middle? I mean, I just found this absolutely exhilarating, and I just may want to run through a wall Al.

[Al]

While eating fish.

[Jason]

While eating fish. After I've been dead.

[Al]

I get it.

[Jason]

Look, Romans 8. I'll just give a little bit of context. I mean, Romans 4.

[Zach]

Sorry, Romans 4.

[Jason]

I'll give you a little of the context and just to kind of show you that I'm not just making this up. If you go back, let's just read the context. Let's pick up in verse 13. It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. Which is why I said this is kind of how limited. That's the only way I saw it. For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value. And the promise is worthless because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there's no transgression. That's why I always go to this verse when I'm currently debating a guy. I hate to use the word debate, but that's what it is. Who believes that we're still under the law? And the last interchange we had, I used this verse. I was like, I would be careful about trying to put myself under something that the Bible clearly says. Where that is, there's wrath.

[Al]

Yeah, there's no way out, you know, I mean, what you talking about painting yourself in a corner?

[Jason]

But I'M going down a rabbit hole. Sorry. So therefore, it says, therefore take a drink. The promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed. Oh, I just love that. Well, we're involved in what Jesus is fixing to initiate by dying on a cross and being raised. Look, it's by grace and it's guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring, not only to those who are of the law, but also of those who are of the faith of Abraham. So you're like, okay, this is interesting. He is the father of us all. As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations. He is a father in the sight of God, in whom he believed. And here we go. There's a dash here, and there's this phrase. The God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they are or were.

[Al]

What?

[Jason]

Let's read that again. He called. Now, it's one thing to give life to the dead. That's spectacular. That's how you can go through a wall and still eat fish somehow. But in cause things that are not as though they were. Well, that's the definition of faith when it says, faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

[Al]

Correct.

[Jason]

Just think about the implications of this. All right? I don't know what my body. I'm not going to be able to describe my body. But just think about all through life when you're just like. You don't see a way out, but you're serving and trusting a God who can make something because he is a creator and a new creator. Think about what Jesus is proposing. You're seeing where I'm going with this, Zach. As new creations, we're following a God who can call things into being that are not. It's not even in your imagination. It's not even possible due to natural law or gravity or whatever you want to come up with. And he's like, oh, no. That's what having faith is all about. I'll make it happen. And he's using that from Abraham because he's looking around based on this promise that through your son, all these nations are going to be blessed. And now I want you to kill him. Yeah, well, what? That's not possible. But he somehow had this thought of, I guess he can make something happen out of nothing. Because if we kill him, how can my offspring come. He must. He's going to walk through a wall eating fish, you know, to just use that analogy.

[Zach]

So, Al, I hadn't been to your house yet one of your houses.

[Al]

You.

[Zach]

You guys buy quite a few houses, it seems like.

[Al]

I tell you what, Zach, I. I wish. I wish when we bought this place, I had known your friends because I could have used them on the mortgage side of this. Yeah.

[Zach]

Todd and Andrew are amazing. And if you're ready to buy a home right now, if you're, if you've been thinking about it, now is the time to buy. I'm telling you. Because for the first time in years, buyers finally had the upper hand because there's a lot of inventory. There's more inventory on the market right now, which means you have more negotiating power and less competition. But opportunities like this don't last very long because as soon as the feds cut the rates, which they're going to do, they're going to continue to cut. I believe buyer demand is likely to spike. And you know what that means. Prices are going to go up and sellers will then have the advantage. Peak home buying season. It's in full swing right now. So now's your moment to lock in the right home for you and you can do it on your terms before the market shifts. So reach out today to get approved for mortgage financing with Andrew and [e-mail] or call 888 Triple Eight 1172. I met Andrew Del Rey and Todd Ivakey and both these guys at a worship event down in Monroe, Louisiana.

[Al]

I love them.

[Zach]

Well, one, because they love Jesus. But two, because they really do provide an incredible service. These guys are the real deal. These are the guys I trust with 40 years of experience. They really are the experts and they make it super easy because they keep everything in house. Call 888 Triple Eight 1172 or go to andrewandtod.com that's andrewandtod.comthat's a big verse, a big text. I actually stumbled across that as well, Jase. And it was Romans 4 that fundamentally shifted my view of faith as well, in conjunction probably with the Book of James and also Genesis 22, which is what you just mentioned about Abraham offering up Isaac as a sacrifice. And then also Hebrews 11 plays into this because Hebrews 11.

[Jason]

Absolutely.

[Zach]

Like, if you want to know the thought process of Abraham. I love this, by the way, because this is like the best text for understanding what faith is, is this that Abraham, according to the Hebrew writer, he figured that God would raise Isaac from the dead, and that's why he sacrificed him. And the reason why he thought that he would raise him from the dead and figuratively speaking, the Hebrew writer says he did raise Isaac from the dead.

[Jason]

But.

[Zach]

But he was relying on the promise of God. So he knew that God wasn't a liar. And so when he's called to sacrifice his child Isaac, he's like, I don't really know how this is going to play out, though, because you've told me you're going to give me descendants that are as numerous as the stars in the sky. Now you're telling, through Isaac, through Isaac shall your offspring be reckoned. So it's actually through this actual person that's going to happen. Now you're saying, kill him. And so I love the mindset there of Abraham because he thought that God would raise him from the dead. But that's not what God did. What God actually did, if you go back and read Genesis 22, is he put a ram in the thicket and there's the substitutionary sacrifice that was offered in place of Isaac. But I love the fact that Abraham got it wrong and still got it right. And I think that's the whole point of faith. Faith is not knowing how God's going to do what God's going to do. It's just knowing that God will do what he's going to do. And one of the big arguments that I've gotten in over the years about this is when you think about the idea of, is it faith or is it works? Is it the law or is it grace? And we try to oppose these two things against one another. If you read the text here in Romans 4, it actually says that no one. Now, to the one who works, it says, wages are not counted to him as a gift, but as his due. And to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. And so if you get in these theological discussions, people are like, well, they try to position faith as if it's a work. But it's not like to believe in the promise of God, you're not doing anything. You're not conjuring up anything. It's just, I'm simply believing in the revelation of God. So God tells me, hey, this is what I'm going to do. I may not know how he's going to do it. I just believe that he is going to do it.

[Jason]

But you do believe it to a point where you're then faithful. Because when you read Hebrews 11, he defines faith, which he brings up the Abraham story just like you do. But then he also says, by faith let's just take Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, which, think about this. On what I just read, they hadn't even seen rain yet. And Noah gets a message from God that you need to build an ark. Now, in our 2000 year culture, we are like, oh, because it may flood, it has never rained on the earth yet, right? Not only did he want him to build an ark, he had to believe in something that he couldn't even comprehend.

[Al]

And by the way, it took 100.

[Jason]

Years to build it, so he believed it. And what I'm saying is, Hebrews 11 is very clear. He built that ark because his belief, what Zach just said then, provided the faithfulness to actually trust something you cannot see.

[Al]

But I love that idea about growing into something you can't imagine, because it's like, that's why he keeps using the term children. You know, you have a child and you look at it and you can see some qualities of either your husband or your wife or both of you in the face of your child, but you have no idea what that child's going to look like once it grows into full maturity and adulthood. And you watch that process go. And then they look at it and say, he looks just like his dad, or she looks just like her mom. And you watch the likeness happen as a child grows. That's what faith does. That's why Jesus says, look, if you'll just start out with a mustard seed size, I promise you, you can grow into something that will tell a mountain to move.

[Zach]

The key there is the growth. When you look at the process of Romans 4, you get to the end of Romans 4 and he says that Abraham, there was not any unbelief that made him waver concerning the promise of God. So. So you think about the promise of God was what, you're going to have a bunch of grandkids. So everything that would come at Abraham that would stop that from happening, that would be the unbelief. And Abraham's like, nope, I believe in the promise of God. Even if I can't see how it's going to happen, I still believe in it. And you say, well, how did he do it? And I think this is a key verse because you think, well, how do I if I don't believe? What if my faith is just the mustard seed? How do I grow that faith? How does that faith grow into something really substantial? And I'm thankful for the ESV version because it really tells us how in the very next verse. And this is in Romans 4:20, it said Abraham grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God. And I think, man, how in the world can my faith grow? You give glory to God. Well, how does that grow my faith? Because as I submit to the revelation of the Holy Spirit, as I submit to him, then what happens is it may be some very small faith. It may be like a mustard seed, but I'm going to go out there and I'm going to submit to God in this one thing. I don't know how you're going to do it, God. I have no clue how you're going to do it, but I'm going to trust you, and I'm going to submit this part of my life to you. And then every time you do that, 100% of the time you do that, God shows up and you taste his glory in fuller measure. And then you're like, whoa, I just tasted the Lord, and that was really good. I want to do that again. And so you go deeper and deeper and deeper. So faith is not a transactional thing that God looks at and says, good boy, Abraham. Now I give you a token of righteousness because you proved no, that's not exactly. The reward is that you actually trust in the provision of God, and then you get to receive the provision. And the more the provision that you receive, the more your faith grows. Because I've been eating this feast of provision over here. I've been eating this manna that's fallen out of heaven. I know God's going to take care of me. And your faith grows, which is why.

[Jason]

We should be giving people a little more grace who we disagree with on some of these things, because faith is a growth process. It is. Go ahead.

[Al]

Yeah, no, I was just going to read the next few words after the verse you read. Against all hope. Abraham, in hope, believed and therefore became the father of many nations. So a lot of times you think, well, this is a hopeless situation. Okay, so in hope, why don't you believe God has something in store? You see what I'm saying? There really is no hopeless situation.

[Jason]

Well, you know what I found fascinating? I know we're out of time, and so I'll make this one take a drink. Is earlier in the chapter four, Zach, he makes this point in 10 and 11 that he had faith before he was circumcised, and then after and he said so he became a model to both the uncircumcised and the circumcised. That's a good point. So I made a point in this. This legal argument I'm having with the person who's trying to be under the law. I was like, well, if this is true. Because I was more. My argument is more Jesus was with God before the beginning, the nation of Israel. And the law was not. It didn't come till Abraham in Genesis 12. And I'm like, but in Hebrews 11, he's talking about Noah. Well, he didn't have the law.

[Zach]

He.

[Jason]

They were having opportunities to show their faith. And it's the same point here. And which I'm. He hasn't responded yet. But still, don't you think that's a good point? I had never thought about that. I thought you can trace the origin of faith because that's what he did in Hebrews 11 all the way back. He first talks about Abel given better sacrifices, you know.

[Al]

Yeah. Some things predate. Like marriage is another one. Yeah, we're out of time. Take another drink. We'll see you next time on the show.

[Jason]

Now. You're supposed to finish your drink now.

[Al]

Oh, you finish it.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Al]

Okay. Finish your drink. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode. It.