Ep 1249 | The Robertsons Confront the Myth That Forgiveness Erases Consequences

Summary

Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode: Ep 1249 | The Robertsons Confront the Myth That Forgiveness Erases Consequences
Date: January 16, 2026
Host: Tread Lively (with Phil, Al, Jase, Zach, and guests)
Main Theme: The consequences of sin in the life of David, the myth that forgiveness erases all consequences, and how these spiritual lessons resonate in the lives of the Robertsons and their listeners.

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Episode Overview

This episode concludes the Robertson family's study of King David, focusing on the aftermath of his sins—including the rape of Tamar, murder within his family, and the civil war led by Absalom. The central theme challenges the popular myth that divine forgiveness erases worldly consequences, highlighting instead that while God’s covenant and grace persist, the real and painful effects of sin may linger for years or even generations. The Robertsons unpack biblical examples, personal anecdotes, and practical lessons for faith, leadership, and family.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Lingering Power of Guilt and Consequences

• David's Story as Caution and Hope:

  • The narrative of David transitions from glory to tragedy following his sins against Bathsheba and Uriah (03:52–05:30).
  • Despite genuine repentance and God’s forgiveness, David and his household suffer ripple effects: familial breakdown, moral failure, and political chaos.
  • Al: “Just because you’re done with sin doesn’t mean sin’s done with you. We may have earthly consequences of the life that we used to live… you may deal with that the rest of your life. But here’s the promise: ultimately in Christ, all things will be made new.” (05:35)

• Robertson Family Parallels:

  • The discovery of Phil’s daughter Phyllis after decades is used as a modern analogy for David’s late-life guilt and healing.
  • Al: “Dad had to relive the last few years of his life, a lot of guilt because here’s this daughter he never knew he had… I saw dad deal with some guilt stuff that he hadn’t dealt with in many, many years.” (01:14–03:53)

Forgiveness vs. Justice and the Leadership Vacuum

• David’s Paralyzing Guilt:

  • After being forgiven, David still fails as a father and king, avoiding discipline and justice (07:39–09:38).
  • John: “David just loses confidence…he’s so paralyzed by what he did…it’s like he just doesn’t want to make another mistake, so he just doesn’t do anything.” (08:50)

• Consequences of Inaction:

  • David’s neglect leads to repeated family tragedy—Amnon’s rape of Tamar, Absalom’s vengeance, and ultimately a civil war (10:52–13:24).
  • Al: “His neutrality is not neutral. He’s actually participating in it… post-repentance… the older I get, every single year I gain a greater fear of sin because I’m starting to understand that a disordered desire… can only consume.” (17:33–18:57)

Sin’s Inescapable Fallout

• From Personal to Political:

  • David’s private collapse becomes public disaster; hidden sin inevitably seeps into the wider community.
  • Zach: “Sin…creates a world that will eventually shape us in its own image. What happens with David’s private collapse actually becomes a public fragmentation.” (10:52–12:27)
  • Al: “Sin cannot just stay hidden. There’s an ontological fallout from sin you cannot avoid.” (13:24)

• Secrets and Family Dysfunction:

  • The danger of family secrets: unspoken pain and hidden wrongdoing perpetuate cycles of dysfunction.
  • Al: “You can never get to healing without truth…this story proves what happens when you just ignore things and don’t talk about it.” (13:24–14:53)

Authority, Identity, and Redemption

• Loss of Moral Authority:

  • David’s refusal to confront his sons is connected to his sense of disqualification by past sin (21:26–22:43).
  • Zach: “He doesn’t feel like he has the moral authority to actually lead his family… sin deforms the soul and has consequences that go far beyond my own personal inner thought life.” (21:26–22:43)

• Fragmented Identity:

  • Sin causes David’s roles—father, king, shepherd—to clash and fragment (32:06–33:37).
  • Zach: “What sin does is it fragments us. So his role of shepherd is now separate from his role of king… all his responsibilities now they’re separated, because his son is now an enemy of the kingdom.” (32:06–33:37)

Justice, Judgment, and Final Lessons

• Delayed and Distorted Justice:
  • The civil war and deaths of David’s sons are presented as consequences not just of initial sin, but of subsequent failures in justice.
  • John: “What happens with the civil war was not inevitable. That was not the consequences of David’s sin with Bathsheba… the consequences of the civil war is the sin of not punishing Amnon.” (24:50–25:28)
  • Leadership vacuums are filled by unfit successors: Absalom’s rebellion, Joab’s ruthless pragmatism.
  • Al: “When the shepherd refuses to shepherd, somebody’s going to rise up to fill the void.” (25:31)

Redemption and God’s Persistent Covenant

• The Return to Shepherdhood:

  • Despite tragic failures, David arcs back to his role as shepherd, humbly offering himself for his people at the end (35:18–36:14).
  • Zach: “He begins as shepherd and he ultimately does end as shepherd… The story of David ends with him returning back to the humble origins.” (35:49–36:14)

• Solomon and the Unexpected Line of Redemption:

  • Solomon, son of Bathsheba, becomes king, embodying restoration and God’s mysterious use of broken people.
  • Christian: “I think too, the redemption… is the restoration of the fact that Solomon is king… which is this whole debacle started with 2 Samuel 11… there’s even a full redemption in that.” (44:30–44:59)
  • Christ, the true Shepherd-King, redeems and fulfills what David could not:
    • Zach: “Where David failed his house, Jesus will end up building an eternal house… Ultimately in Christ, all things will be made new.” (04:30–05:30, 39:34–40:39)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Just because you’re done with sin doesn’t mean sin’s done with you.” – Al (05:35)
• “Sin can never remain private. It always acts like a cancer…it’s going to metastasize through your entire life.” – Zach (18:57)
• “You can never get to healing without truth.” – Al (14:30)
• “When the shepherd refuses to shepherd, somebody’s going to rise up to fill the void.” – Al (25:31)
• “He begins as shepherd and…ends as shepherd. The story of David ends with him returning back to the humble origins.” – Zach (35:49)
• “Where David failed his house, Jesus will end up building an eternal house.” – Zach (04:30)

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Summary | Notable Speaker/Quote | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------| | 03:52–05:30| Guilt and consequences linger long after forgiveness | “Just because you’re done with sin...” (Al) | | 07:44–09:38| David’s paralyzing guilt and lost confidence as leader | “David just loses confidence…” (John) | | 10:52–13:24| Sin’s transformation from personal failure to public chaos| “Sin creates a world that will shape us…” (Zach) | | 14:53–16:18| Secrets, family dysfunction, and seeking discipline | “You can never get to healing without truth.” (Al)| | 17:33–18:57| Sin’s persistent, spreading consequences | “I can only consume with that…” (Zach) | | 21:26–22:43| Loss of moral authority and deformation of the soul | “Sin deforms the soul…” (Zach) | | 24:50–25:31| Distinguishing consequences of sin and leadership failures| (John) | | 32:06–33:37| Fragmented identity and conflicting roles | (Zach) | | 35:49–36:14| David returns to shepherd-king at end of life | (Zach) | | 39:34–40:39| The true Shepherd-King: Jesus and the ultimate redemption | (Zach) | | 44:30–44:59| Solomon’s ascension as symbol of restoration | (Christian) |

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Final Takeaways

• Redemption is possible, but consequences are often unavoidable: Even forgiven sin leaves scars—personally, relationally, and sometimes publicly.
• Secrets and unresolved guilt destroy families and institutions: Truth-telling and justice are necessary for healing.
• Sin fragments identity and family, but doesn’t diminish God’s covenant: The persistence of God’s mercy runs through the failures of His people, with Jesus as the ultimate redeemer.
• Leadership requires both accountability and compassion: Abandoning one for the other can create a destructive vacuum.
• The story of David is both a cautionary tale and a testimony to grace: His life ends with humility and a return to his first calling—as a shepherd. In Christ, every fragment can be healed.

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Next Steps

• Join the ongoing study at unashamedforhillsdale.com for free.
• Look out for future studies as the Robertsons continue their deep dives into biblical literature and practical faith.

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Transcript

[A]

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. Hillsdale Friday episode. We're going through the study of David and it's been an emotional roller coaster, guys. I don't know how y', all, how are y' all holding up with everything that we've been talking about?

[B]

We're still here. So. So I know you had to put your glasses on to see, but I can't see it. This is our, this is our last episode in the life of David. And so I have completed my course, the David story. Shepherd, father and king. I printed it off for you to be able to see. This is my sheepskin.

[C]

It's a certificate.

[B]

It's my racking up accolades, boys. My third one from Hillsdale. I'm very proud of this moment.

[A]

How much did you pay for it? How much it cost you?

[B]

It was completely free, Zach.

[A]

Completely free.

[B]

It was free. And. But I have been super blessed by the discussion study.

[D]

If you are listening, we're. We're gonna do the last two episodes. That's why I said is there tablet from the last episode. So this is, that's right, seven and eight of the David series.

[B]

Yeah. And it's, it's been really good and I feel like we just need to dive in because we were, we kind of left off at this kind of guilt ridden David because now his children are beginning to follow in his footsteps. And so, you know, we have a son raping a daughter who now is going to be vindicated with vengeance by Absalom, which is this going to send him down this spiral, which is again going to cause more angst to this family. And John Leq, you asked the question when you were at the end the last podcast about the power of guilt. And it made me think about, because we've been talking about like dad and the blind. We talked about that loose in my movie that we're working on. But I thought about this with Dab. You know, dad understood healing. Same thing from Psalm 51. He embraced that, understood that he left that life he was in. Although there was 10 years there. But there were consequences that still would play itself out over the course of his whole life, our whole lives. Us having things we had to deal with is part of the reason I was a prodigal. And it wasn't dad's fault. I made my own decisions. But you can't live life like outside of the vacuum of a family. You know, when things, bad things happen, you have to deal with it. But you know, 44 years go by. And then dad finds out he has a daughter. Because Phyllis was just here this week. This week staying with us. And so last night we had some people over and Tony and Phyllis were there. And so we were telling this couple who had not heard their story. I was telling the story of how she discovered us and all this. But I thought about it. Dad had to relive the last few years of his life. A lot of guilt because here's this daughter he never knew he had and she didn't grow up knowing her dad and she desperately wanted to know who her dad was. And so the last five years of his life, she lived here to try to have a relationship with that. And they did. They bonded. It was great. But I saw dad deal with some guilt stuff that he hadn't dealt with in many, many years. And so it just gave me a picture here because we talk about how that David was so changed by the affair and the murder and the death of the child. And now it's almost like he's kind of vapor locked and not being able to deal with his kids because he handles everything badly. You know, like in terms of. As they spiral out of control. He just. He doesn't have it in him to be the old David. So there is. There is something about. Even redeemed that consequence and guilt will always play a role. You just have to let it not capture.

[A]

Lingers.

[B]

It lingers, lingers.

[A]

But I think, you know, with Phil stories interesting because that. That when Phyllis came to light, you know, we found out about Phyllis. I remember when you were up here in Black Mountain and show. We were sitting at dinner and you told me about the. The whole thing and showed me the envelope and I was like, oh, this is, I think real. But that coincided with us writing the story of the blind. And so he was also reliving it. 3 Literally like the interviews that, you know, I was doing. And. And I think that when you watch the blind because I mean, David's story is. I mean, Phil, I mean, he's. We're all David. That's the thing, right?

[B]

But David's story here is the man. Here's.

[A]

You are the man.

[B]

You are the man.

[A]

I think. And just kind of recapping that like David's story, it just collapses in on itself. It really does. It. It collapses in on itself. But the story of God's covenant faithfulness does not collapse. And that is the promise of the. The second Samuel 7 identifies when it says that, you know, that I'm not. You're not going to Build me a house. I'm going to build you a house. But that fulfillment was not found in David. It was found in Solomon. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That fulfillment was. That fulfillment was not found in David. It was not found in Solomon. It was ultimately found in Jesus, the true shepherd king, who never ever abdicates his responsibility, who never ever misuses power. And so when you look at David, because Jesus was in the line of David, but David took a woman, well, Jesus gives himself for his bride. Where David killed to hide his sin, Jesus dies to forgive sin. And where David failed his house, Jesus will end up building an eternal house in the fact that he will be the cornerstone of a new temple. So all of this whole guilt stuff, it's real. It's there. And I tell people, just because you're done with sin doesn't mean sin's done with you. We may have earthly consequences of the life that we used to live, the thing that we're repenting from, but ultimately you may deal with that the rest of your life. But here's the promise. Ultimately in Christ, all things will be made new, all things will be made right. In Jesus, it will all be fulfilled. And so that is the tension of kind of that not yet now kingdom that we talk about a lot. We're sitting in this. But that guilt, I mean, it may linger for a while and it may pop its head back up. When you're 75 years old and want to make a movie and find out you have a daughter you didn't know about, it may rear its ugly head again.

[B]

And I think that's part of the point that going forward that we see. So just to continue the narrative of the story, Amnon, who has now raped the sister and, and cast her out and just. And demeaned her and treated her terribly, she goes to her brother Absalom and tells him what happens. He says, put it out of your heart. Memories as I don't worry about it. And he knows then he's going to do something about it.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know, he knows in his heart right there. He's like, I will.

[D]

He. He decides that, yeah, he does kill him.

[B]

Yeah, he's going to kill him. And it takes, what is it, two years? Yeah, that go by and he's still harboring this. So think about what a two years that was, right? And then he. And then he. Once again, David gets used as the messenger to lure now the brother out and all the other sons as well, into a setting where Absalom is going to get his revenge and he's going to murder his, his brother. And so now we're second generation murder in this family because now they're killing each other, raping each other. I mean, so now we see. It reminds me, Zach, of the garden where you have the fall and then you get to Genesis 4 and the fall has just happened. But we only go one chapter and we got sons murdering each other. And then two chapters later, we got every person on the earth at that time thinking violence and wickedness, I mean, just that progressive.

[A]

It got evil in a hurry. And I don't think we realize how evil it got. But. Yeah, good point.

[B]

Exactly. And so that's what you see here. And I think every step of the way, everything that happens, David now as a father is watching the failures, but also as a king, he's seeing failure as well. And he's just, he's just ignoring it, basically. I mean, he provides no justice for the rape, and now he provides no justice for the murder. It's just like we just won't talk about it.

[D]

Well, and that's, that's such a, that's such a point. Whereas David kind of just like gives up. And that's what I said in the last episode. He, God forgives him. And that's like David goes to God, ask for forgiveness, and Nathan confirms, right. Like, there will be these consequences, but you're forgiven. And David doesn't really accept that. Like, he, he feels all that guilt. And I might be reading myself into this, but it seems like David just loses confidence. Like, he just is like, so paralyzed by what he did. It's like he just doesn't want to make another mistake. So he just doesn't do anything.

[B]

That's it.

[D]

And like, when David found out about Tamar and Amnon, if he had acted right then nothing would have happened. Like, Absalom would have been like, oh, you did it. Like, I don't have to do anything. You took care of it. After Absalom killed Amnon, had David have acted, the next thing would have happened after Joab had killed Absalom the next day. Like every point of the story, David just is. Keeps falling back into that. Just like, I'm out of it. He's not sinning. He doesn't have another, like, I think he truly repents to God and doesn't have another, like, moral failure, but he just loses his confidence in himself.

[C]

Yeah, it seems like he just kind of like zones out because you even have the. What's his name? Shammai, that Guy that's cursing David. It's a similar story to earlier in the book where what was Abigail's husband's name? And it's kind of a similar thing. And he's like, who is this guy?

[D]

You know?

[C]

And now it's like a complete. He's like, just letting the dude just hurl insults at him. And you kind of just picture this, like, man who's just kind of just beaten down and just. Yeah. Full of guilt, and he's just taking it. But David, earlier in the story was like, someone kill that man.

[B]

Yeah. Who's this dog out here? Yeah. No, and you're right. I think it shows you. I think that probably the people around David, we're thinking, oh, this is. This is patient David. This is like the guy that wouldn't turn on salt. They're thinking, like, he's got something in the tank, really. He's just ignoring the problem. And the problem is when you do this, you notice the other players, they fill that void. Because all of a sudden you see Joab rise up and all these other little advisors. And so now we're starting to see this division and it's moved out of the personal into the political. Because now Absalom is thinking, well, I'm just going to be king. And so he starts this deception.

[A]

That's. I mean, that's the. That. That's this. That's the story that. That sin, it creep. How'd you say? It creeps out into the. From the personal into the political. Because sin. What sin does is. I think this is so helpful for us to understand it this way. It creates a world that will eventually shape us in its own image. And so what happens with David's private collapse, it actually becomes a public, like, fragmentation. It seeps into the kingdom. Right? And this is something, I think we think we can sin in isolation because the original sin was a sin of lust, isolation. Then he had the deal. But then the big sin was the killing of Uriah, which, again, I think that was. That was inside of himself as he was figuring this out. But this seeps out into his world. And it reminds me of the story that someone at the church that you guys go to, they talk about like they'd gone through this whole period of marital. It wasn't marital infidelity. They had got into, like, swinging and all kind of crazy stuff, and they end up repenting and turning to Christ. But the. The. And you know who I'm talking about. She. When she tells her her testimony, she talks about the fact that There were hidden sins in her parents marriage that she never knew about until later. That she attributes that those sins seeped into my marriage. They seeped into my imagination. So I think what's happening here is you' seeing this. You're seeing that this is not, you know, like there's a four, another fourfold prophecy that David gives. Remember the. You remember the fourfold.

[B]

Judgment.

[A]

Judgment that David cast on himself. Then there's a fourfold prophecy in 2nd Samuel 12. One, the sword's not going to depart from your household. Two, evil's going to rise from within your own household. Three, your wives will be taken publicly. And four, will what you did in secret will be exposed openly. But that's not God getting even. This is not God saying, okay, I'm going to get you now. This is, this is just the nature of sin. It's an ontological reality of sin. It's a. It's the consequence of sin that's folding out here. And that is the nature of sin. It seeps out. By the way, you want to take this course with us? It's absolutely free. We're finishing up the story of David. You go to unashamedforhillsdale.com you can sign up and take the course for free. But I think that's a really big point though, Al, that this is not something sin cannot just stay hidden. There's an ontological fallout from sin that you cannot avoid. I don't care who you are, you cannot avoid it.

[B]

Well, and Zach, you've heard this before. You and I have counseled a lot of people doing church work. And a lot of times people say, well, you know, this is something from my past. And, you know, I don't really think this is relevant to my life now, or I shouldn't. I should keep this from my spouse. I've had this many, many times. And it's. It's this idea that somehow we can have secrets that would affect our relationships, whether it's our spouse or family or anything else, and that somehow that won't damage us or cause division. It always will. The light of truth is there for a reason. And it's because light sanitizes, you know, I mean, Jesus, how many times he said, I'm light, I'm light, I'm light. We shine. We don't. We don't do what's done at night. We're in the day. You know, we're trying to get this out. And I always say. And they'll say, well, what if it causes problems? I say, oh, it's going to cause problems because truth does. But you can never get to healing without truth. This story proves what happens when you just ignore things and don't talk about it. And yet, how many times have you been in a situation, Zach, where some. There'll be a big problem in a family. It could be an addiction or could be something else. And we just don't talk about it. You know, everybody just ignores it. Like, you walk through and we're whistling through the graveyard like we're not talking about this problem. Does it fix itself? No, it doesn't fix itself. And all it does is create division and problems within that family unit.

[D]

That's what I think for David himself. David does repent and God does forgive him. But David gets stuck in that situation.

[B]

That's right.

[D]

He doesn't take on his new role as king and shepherd for the rest of his family. You know, I mean, I think that's what we're talking about. Like, David, sin does come to light. Everyone sees it. He does bring it to the Lord. He does talk to Nathan. David does all the right things for restoration. And then God is giving him that. But David isn't accepting it because he's stuck in that, like, guilt of his, what he did. I mean, I think that's like, part of the reason he doesn't take on these, like, these new challenges. I think because he just is so. Loses such confidence in himself of like, well, what can I say? Like, what can I. David? I mean, I'm totally. This is totally just my own thoughts. But David looks at Amnon, is like, well, how can I made the same mistake.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Like, David sees Absalom kill him, is like, well, I made the same mistake, you know, like, instead of taking that fatherhood role of speaking into them and challenging them on it, he just is.

[B]

Because aren't they screaming out Luke for. For correction?

[D]

Yes.

[B]

I mean, I think they both were.

[D]

I mean, it actually even says that in 14. I mean, this is on our study guide notes. Absalom returns to Jerusalem after three years, but David refuses to speak to him. In an act of desperation, Absalom burns Job's fields to get David's attention.

[B]

Yeah, and we already know Joab is not a guy you want to be.

[C]

I cannot believe of all the people Joab killed for little things. I cannot believe he didn't like, but he was later.

[D]

He does later.

[B]

He does later.

[C]

But I'm saying, I just. Yeah, but he. But Joab kills the commander. I mean, he does some shady things, but he.

[B]

He is I mean, Absalom is showing. He's, he's like, he's a grown man, but he's still trapped as a child. And he's screaming for discipline, right? He's saying, david, hear me. Here I am. How many times have we seen our own little small children? They're wanting to know you're there, you're putting the guardrails up, you're putting the boundaries up. And we're. When it happens with grown people, the results are devastating. So the kingdom becomes divided over this because now Absalom, in his last act of rebellion, basically causes civil war. And, and 20,000 Israelites are going to lose their life in this civil war, all because one dad won't discipline his son.

[D]

Right?

[B]

I mean, that's what we're down to.

[A]

And won't discipline his son because his son's pattern of lust repeats his own pattern. I see. And I take. I see. Me wants, me takes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so David in this, in this picture, his neutrality is not, he's not neutral. He's actually participating in it even. So this, this post. Repentance. But this is the thing about sin, though. We're so obsessed with the, with our justification that we're not seeing this thing. How like, like that's the, the way you take sin serious is, is it's not fixating on damnation because damnation will be. I mean, God will forgive, right? We know that. And we, we tell ourselves that I can do this sin, and surely God will forgive me. And you know what? Yes, he will forgive you. But the problem with sin and the fear that I'm learning in my older age, the older I get, every single year I gain a greater fear of sin because I'm starting to understand that a disordered desire, I can't love. I can only consume with that. And so you see that this, what happens in God's economy is that sin can never remain private. It always going to act like a cancer and it's going to metastasize through your entire life. In David's case, his entire kingdom. I mean, this started out as him on a roof. This started out as him not going to war, right? And now we're talking about 20,000 people being killed in a civil war in his own kingdom simply because it started out with just one him just being lazy. I'm going to hang out on this one.

[C]

It's interesting because David, that happens at David's, at the house, at the palace. And you have Genesis, beginning of Genesis, it's the first time that sin Is used as a, I think it's a verb where it talks about sin is crouching at the door looking for someone to devour. You must master it. And it's interesting that kind of, that language. And then you have David on the rooftop looking at Bathsheba bathing on the roof.

[B]

And by the way, it's the same rooftop that now Absalom, when he takes briefly the kingdom from David and runs him out of town, guess what he's doing on the same rooftop? Having sex with all of David's wives in public on the roof. I mean that's, that's where this story.

[A]

It'S like the flip. It's the flip. Now David's Uriah.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I mean it's being played out. That's such a good point. I mean Absalom's plan actually mirrors the strategy with Uriah. One, get him isolated, wait till his heart's marry with wine, get him drunk, and then let others do the killing. That's his plan. That was David's plan. Remember? Let's bring him home, let him be married, and then he ends up getting somebody else to kill him.

[C]

Quick callback. This does not do anything. It just made me think of it when you said that. But he made the point too in the last lecture with whether it's Michael or Mikhail. I watched the house of David, they called her Mikhail.

[B]

So whatever you say potato, we say potato.

[C]

But when she was in the window helping David escape, and then the next time she's in the window, it's when she looks at him and basically despises him. So all those callbacks are so interesting. The rooftop with Absalom and then David, and then her with looking out the window helping David escape from Saul. And then the next time it's the window with her and David, it's her despising him because of the, and even.

[B]

Even the idea of being barren the rest of her life is thrown in there. To Zach's earlier point from another podcast about that idea about multiply, I mean, even in her marriage to David now, not only is it a now a loveless marriage, a hate filled marriage, but it won't even produce any children, any future for them as well. So it's just a sad part of the story.

[A]

Go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and you guys can sign up and take this course with us. It's absolutely free. We're in the story of David. But to your point, Al.

[B]

That is.

[A]

The nature of sin. I think that's what we're seeing here that sin, what we're seeing here is David's refusal to get involved in this. All of the, everything, what it reveals is a deformation that sin causes. And particularly in David's case here, he's like letting all this happen. And John, you said this earlier, but I want to just reiterate it. This is the consequence of his own sin that now he doesn't feel like he has the moral authority to actually lead his family. And the reason that he doesn't feel like he has the moral authority is because the sin that he's committed. And so then now you start to see the deformation of sin, how it deforms the soul. And so David, is he forgiven? Yes. Is he deformed? Yes. The point is we're all deformed in some degree or another. And so like you can't get like too bit out of shape on the deformation because we're all deformed. The question is, do you want to be more deformed? I don't. So I'm like, man, whatever deformation I'm experiencing now, I don't want any more of that. In fact, I want the redemption of it and I want to move back the other direction. So I have a, I'm learning a healthy fear of sin, that sin deforms the soul and it has consequences that go far beyond my own personal inner thought life.

[C]

And that's the sin, right? Cause that's too. You commit the sin, right, then you're forgiven. And then you have this internal struggle with the enemy of. Because then he kind of flips it, right? Then it's like, well then who are you? Because then you have that callback to your sin. So then you, because I experienced this sometimes too. It's like if I do something terrible, if I do something bad and I repent of it, the last thing I want to do is go try to instruct someone else. And yeah, I love how you said that the moral authority, because you do kind of feel like a self righteousness or you feel this weird feeling of I know what I've done, but now I'm trying to lead this and call this out. It feels hypocritical. And that's the lie that the enemy wants you to believe is that you actually can't, you know, live that out. So it's, it's twofold. It's, it's the deception at the beginning, but then it's also the lie afterwards that you can't move forward from here.

[B]

Which is why I personally think this the, because you mentioned the curses of Shammai. And remember what he kept calling the man of blood?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think this civil war, and this is just my opinion, but I think that's why God wouldn't allow David to build a temple. It wasn't just because, you know, all the wars that were fought up until, you know, the fall here of David were all on God's behalf. I mean, he was being caught sin.

[C]

So you think the man of blood is because of Uriah?

[B]

Exactly. I think the curse he got from this guy because he said, remember, the guy wanted to kill him. And he's like, hey, if the curses are coming from this guy, it's coming from God. So that's some more of this fatalism thinking, but it's also him recognizing that he deserves it. And because of the fallout of his family, 20,000 of his countrymen are dying. That's a pointless war. That makes no sense because, I mean, Absalom winds up hanging in a tree.

[C]

Right, right.

[B]

So in this setting, I think that's exactly why God told him too much blood.

[C]

Interesting.

[B]

You know, that's. That's just my opinion.

[D]

No, I agree. I think there's two different. Two different sins and two different consequences going on. And that's why I just keep bringing. I feel so strongly about this, that what happens with the civil war was not inevitable. That was not the consequences of David's sin with Bathsheba.

[B]

That's right.

[D]

The consequences of David's sin with Bathsheba was the death of his son, the rape of Tamar, the death of Amnon, and the death of Absalom. The consequences of the civil war is the sin of not punishing Amnon. Right. In the beginning.

[B]

Justice.

[D]

Remember, he was not providing justice. Yeah.

[A]

His refusal to participate in the justice. And by doing so, he participated in the demise of the kingdom. And so what you're seeing here, this is a study of a leadership vacuum. That's what this looks like. And so in the absence of leadership, what's going to happen? Somebody's going to step in and do it. In this case, it happens to be Absalom. And it. And it absolutely, literally devastates and splits the kingdom eventually. And so that's the, that's the thing that when the shepherd refuses to shepherd, guess what? Somebody's going to rise up to fill the void. And that is man. That'll. That'll preach for all of us, you know? Well, and that's a good point, John.

[B]

Like, and then that even brings out the thought. So the, so the Civil war happens and all this battle is going on and so Absalom is confident he's going to win. I mean he's up sleeping with the wire. He's, he got the, he's in charge.

[D]

He's growing his hair out.

[B]

Growing his hair out. He's back to his five pound hairdo. He's got that flowing mane and conditioner. He's riding the donkey and we could talk about the donkey. Now he's riding the donkey, which we know means you. And Dr. J brings this out. You ride the donkey after you win. That's when you ride it into the.

[C]

Right after military victory as a symbol of strength and peace.

[B]

But he's riding donkey in the battle.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And then his hair, this five pounds of beautiful hair gets caught in a tree, pulls him off the donkey. And Christian brought this up.

[C]

Well, I'm just like, it's like a desert and it's like a sunset and he's just looking at the mule, Fabio slowly galloping out and he's just like, my kingdom. And then he just gets.

[D]

Well, that's just the whole point on his hair is that was like the Pride it t Dr. Jackson talked about earlier. Like his pride was in his hair and in this battle. Like I've never been to war, but I've watched a lot of movies and.

[B]

Either they're read a lot of books.

[D]

I've read a lot of books. And either their heads are shaved or they've got like, even the Vikings had some kind of braid situation going on because like the hair is a vulnerable spot.

[B]

It's the reason why you don't want the long hair coming out of a football helmet.

[D]

Yeah, you want people to grab their hair. Adoption is just letting it flow in the wind. And that's what is his downfall.

[B]

And then he's as, he's hanging, as Christian says, the donkey is riding away and literally the kingdom is going with it because they're losing because they underestimated. Remember he made a point about some advisors came and said, look, this David Scrappy, I mean his people, Joab, these guys, these are killers. We don't want to take these for granted. What? He didn't listen because he thought by now that he knew everything. And again I just, I keep going back to, I see a young man who is not matured past his own hate filled sense of needing justice. And that's where you're seeing now. He's so blinded by it. And look, and I can say that because I was that young man myself. I was 16 years old. I thought I knew everything when I knew nothing. And all it took was about two years of me in a prodigal wandering to figure out that I better get back to dear old dad and make things right. And that's exactly what Absalom is wanting instead. Zach, to your point, the power vacuum is filled because now the politicians and the warriors step in. And you remember, David is only concerned. He said, be gentle with Absalom. In other words, we got a civil war going on. We got 20,000 people dying. And he says, don't make him pay.

[A]

Which shows that David the father eclipses.

[B]

David the king at this moment, and David the guilt.

[C]

Yeah. And then. Yeah, that you really see the personal and political thread throughout, really, this whole story. Yeah, because then him and Joab get into it, because Joab's like, we're out here giving our life, you know, for the battle. And the battle. Yeah, yeah. So it's you. You see that rift just continue through the. Throughout the story.

[B]

And again, it's so convoluted. And I really love the. What would you call it? When Dr. Jackson was dealing with this, on this lecture, on this last lecture, it was almost an angst he was having by having to say Joab was right.

[D]

Well, yeah.

[B]

He said he wasn't wrong.

[C]

He said, you don't want to be on the side where you like. You don't want to be on. Yeah. Where you side with Joab. You don't want to be in that cave.

[B]

And yet you have to, because you see this void of leadership that Zach was talking about. In other words, here's this conniving, murdering, terrible person who is having to now confront David yet again and even does. Tries to pull a Nathan and has, like a story about a woman member and all this stuff, and he has this whole situation. And he's right, because David won't do the right thing. I mean, he's still, you know, and he killed him. I mean, he started the murder of him when he stabbed him three times, and then he gets murdered. It's terrible. Don't forget to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com to sign up. Take the courses for free and then join us on the podcast. Go ahead, Zach.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting, this line, too. When Absalom gets hung in the tree by his. Ha. The language dangling. Between heaven and earth are suspended.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Between heaven and earth. And it's such a picture, right, of. Of this identity that's been just really suspended. It's like he's not quite. Yeah. Where does he end up at? Where does the whole sin end up at? You end up in this. In this place, this. I'm not where I'm not. I'm just. I'm suspended between the two. And it is an identity that. That's not rooted and connected. And I think that's the downstream consequence of the sin of any of our sin is it does lead to that fragmented, ruptured, suspended identity of our own selves. But what Christ offers us is to root our identity in something real, someone who is real, which is him. And I think that's the story, that. This whole story of David, you could see Jesus being woven all the way through it.

[B]

It's funny you mentioned that, because when you think about Jesus riding into Jerusalem on that donkey as the king and the people are saying hosanna, blessed, you know, the king is arriving because he is in that moment and he's riding that donkey in and to his death. That will then be his resurrection and his ascension, which is the setting up of the eternal kingdom. So you see that picture that's right there, and this donkey's not riding off without Jesus on it, you know, but this, this.

[A]

This confrontation, or maybe it's a. It's like a clash between the different roles of David, of shepherd, of king and a father. And you're seeing he's wrestling with all of that. And, and you can understand it when you kind of read this whole story. As we kind of. As we kind of move through the story, the confrontation or the clash, it is inevitable. Based on the decisions that he's continued to make, this clash is going to happen. But the reason why the clash is going to happen is because David, in his own choices, this is what sin does. It fragments us. So his role of shepherd is now separate from his role of king and is now separate from his role of father because he's done all these things now. So now it's all fragmented, and so now it's all clashing together. And that goes to the speak to the identity of what. Of what sin distorts that identity. And so Dave is dealing with that and to the point where, you know, he. He basically gets rebuked by Joab, who's like, what are you doing? Like, mourning in this way, you're, you know, David's grief, It's my son, my son Absalom. And Joab's like, what are you doing? You're demoralizing the troops. What? Do you not understand what's happening here? This guy's starting a civil war. And David just can't go there as king because he's stuck in the father role. But then he's also trying to shepherd the kingdom. Then he's also trying to be the shepherd. He's like, all of his responsibilities now they're separated because his son is now an enemy of the kingdom.

[B]

And there's no weight to his words because think about it. He told Joab and all the commanders to go easy on Absalom. So what he was saying is, don't kill him. That's what he told him. And this is the king. So at one point, if David would have said that, everybody would have listened to right? Now when Joab hears he's hanging in the tree, guess what? He goes right down there with the javelins and says, we're going to kill him. And he does. And word gets back to David. Remember that was kind of a funny story, because the first guy comes up and it's like, I don't know, was he. I know not what I. You know, he doesn't even. The translation was just a gar. I don't have the message. Then the next, the kushite comes along and says, oh, no, he's gone. He's been killed. But once again, David has an opportunity to provide justice. He should have killed Joab. He should have died for that. He went against direct orders of the commander in chief and killed the son instead, out of, again, shame and guilt, he fires him, which, like that's going to make him go away. Like, we got the apprentice. You're fired. Because all he does is goes and kills the guy who is the replacement? Well, of course he did. He's Joab. That's the way he does things. You know, here's the replacement that David has put in. He's dead. And Joab is right back to pulling his shenanigans. He's not killed until Solomon comes to power. So again, I think it shows this impotence motif. There's one. Zach, there's a new motif for you. This impotence motif that we find David at, at the end of his reign. Because by now he just can't seem to get it right.

[A]

But how did he start? I mean, think about David's story at the very beginning when he was called by God. What was he doing?

[B]

Shepherding sheep.

[A]

Shepherding sheep. So what you do see, the beauty of this story is you do see a full ark at the end of his reign as king. And as he's turning over the kingdom, he says, it is I who have sinned. These sheep. What have they done? And so David's offering himself up for the people. Kind of a foreshadowing of the son of David. Right. And that. But that is, that. That is the picture.

[D]

He.

[A]

He begins as shepherd and he ultimately does end as shepherd. He comes a long way from, you know, when he was like beautiful David playing the harp, that pitcher, in the early days in his rise, you know, prominence. And he was a great warrior. But he doesn't end. The story doesn't end with him as the great warrior or the great poet. The story of David ends with him. I'm returning back to the humble origins. I'm still shepherding people.

[D]

It's really good, I think, to. Towards the end, I think his. David's shift back to kind of shift back to righteousness, I guess you could say. Happens in 2nd Samuel 21, whenever David goes back to war. And I think this is like. I mean, this is what I think is amazing.

[B]

Go back what he's supposed to be doing.

[D]

This is the amazing part of this whole story and this whole literature is you see David start as a shepherd and then he's anointed by God and then he becomes king and then he loses that kingdom. And then he. He's in this, like, mix of tragedy and then he starts to make his way back to shepherd.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And that first step is back on his king role. He goes back to war and through this, I think his instincts are right. I actually think, you know, thinking about it, I think that whole time where he wasn't acting, it was, in a sense, he was doing the right thing, leaning more towards forgiveness.

[B]

Right.

[D]

But it was perverse because he wasn't enacting justice.

[B]

Right.

[D]

And like, he had the right instinct. He was forgiving. Even after Absalom, he was forgiving his enemies. He was trying to, I think in his mind, stop the fight fighting. He just didn't want any more blood. But that then he wasn't doing his job as king. And then in 21, after all this happens, he sought the name of the Lord, he sought God. And God said there was a blood guilt on Saul and on his house because he put the Gideonite Gibeonites to death. So the king called them and they eventually begins this new justice for Saul and then goes to war with the Philistines and is kind of like taking back on this, like, calling of God, this like, power king move. And then after that war, he then starts to go like, wind his ears down back to where he started as a shepherd.

[B]

Well, and Even. Even the close of 24, when we talked about him building an altar, he couldn't build the temple of God. But he does have a priestly moment here where the people are suffering, his people, the sheep of Israel, and there's these plagues there. And then he builds this altar and says it said, David saw the angel who was striking down the people. This is verse 17. And he said to the Lord, I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. So he kind of returns back to that idea. There are. These are but sheep. So, Zach, there he is, back to being a shepherd. What have they done? Let your hand fall upon me and my family. And I think about Moses. Remember, Moses was like, you know these people? I don't know. But he's like, look, these are people that you brought out of Egypt. We need. Because God was like, I'll just kill them all and start over with you. And he said, no. Moses remembered the sheep, right? Because he was a shepherd. Because he spent 40 years being a shepherd before he was ready to go get the people out of Israel. You see the same thing here. It's like that return.

[A]

Well, you see the four, then that's why you see Jesus the good shepherd in this too. Where David says, it is I who have sinned these sheep. What have they done? Let their sin fall on me. Christ says, it is they who have sinned these sheep, what have they done? Let their sins fall on me. So you see what Jesus accomplishes, what David never could. Jesus actually heals the world that David broke. And so I think this is interesting because when David ends his reign, one of the last things that he says is very simple. Just walk in the ways of the Lord. You know, when he hands the kingdom over to Solomon, just walk in the ways of the Lord. And I get this as a 47 year old man, like, I'm getting this now I'm starting to get this. It's like, what has sin taught me? That it never works out like I thought it would. And the older I get, the more I'm kind of like, man, just walk in the ways of the Lord. Just like Phil used to say this. And it would drive me nuts when he would say it. I would think, you know, 10 years ago when he would say it to me, I think he just doesn't get it. And now I'm like, no, he got it when he would just say, just do the right thing, do good. Just do the right. And I mean, just do good.

[B]

Wow. What is the downside of doing good?

[A]

I would hear that though, and I would think, no, let me sit you down and talk to you about your theology, Phil. And at the end of, of now that I'm 10 out of that, I'm like, no, Phil got it. At the end of his life, he's just like, for crying out loud, just do the right thing. Just walk in the ways of God. This is what, this is the promise, this is what's good.

[B]

And so David, news flash, do good. What is the downside of loving God and loving your neighbor Christian?

[A]

That's it, right? I mean, but you think about how David finishes. He doesn't finish as a perfect man, but how David does finish is he finishes as a man who learned that the kingdom of God will only come through presence and the mercy of God. It's not going to come through strength or charisma or superior strategy. None of that. It's going to come through the presence and the mercy of God. That's how the kingdom's going to come. And David gets this at the very end of his life.

[C]

Dr. Jackson didn't talk about this, but I think I've heard people mention this. But isn't, Wasn't like when David did the census, like, wasn't that frowned upon? Like, wasn't he, like, why was that a bad thing?

[B]

Well, you know, God had always said, even way back in with, before the Israelites went into the promised land, that don't count your horses, don't count your armies, because you need to rely on me. Because when you start counting the armies means that your power, you got the power. So that was kind of the idea about census and you know, somehow taking credit for what God has built up. Yeah, that was kind of the idea, but I thought it was, I thought it was interesting. I love that Dr. J painted this picture with the, at the end as a positive, with the young woman that comes in with David as necessarily a negative. Like he's in such bad shape that, you know, he can't stay warm. That the idea was is that kind of that lamb has returned to the lap of the guy. And the story, you know, that that was the picture he painted. And that's a beautiful picture because then he goes into this next thing with Solomon about following God to Zach's point, which will make him a great king. Don't forget to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com to sign up for the course, which is free, by the way. And then it's interesting because David had all these kind of left undone things in the kingdom and Then Solomon's gonna come in and I mean, he's gonna kick down doors and take care of business within the first two chapters of First Kings. I mean, he does it and it reminded me of the end of the Godfather, you know, whenever the Don has died and now, you know, all these people are rising up and, you know, they all. There's this conniving going on. And so the, the son Michael, on the baptism of his godchild, just kills everybody. It's like, you know, everybody thought they were safe and listen, everybody's forgiven. And it was like, no, I'm killing you all because we're going to go to Godfather too. I'm the man. So from a mob perspective, Solomon does this in a kingdom perspective because he has no qualm about justice. He doesn't have the guilt ridden thing of his dad. So when he comes to power, he just goes kicks down doors and says, here's the way we're going to do the kingdom. And it's very interesting then that he's the one that winds up building, building the temple later. But I think it's because the blood had been shed and now there's unity in the kingdom. But it was brought about even at David's end with the right thing in mind. And so I love that he returns to the heart. To Zach's point that we saw way back in 1st Samuel 16 when they had to go get him out of the field because he was taking care of sheep and he didn't even get, he wasn't even going to get picked.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but he was the guy.

[C]

It's cool too, because Dr. Jackson pointed out the redemption part with, you know, with the young virgin when David's old. But I think too, the redemption and the restoration of the fact that Solomon is king and Solomon is, you know, the son of Bathsheba, which is this whole debacle started with 2nd Samuel 11. So I think there's even a full redemption in that of Solomon becoming the next king. And it's, it's on the hinge of David's worst mistake of his life.

[B]

That's a great insight. And I've said the same thing. When you, when you go and you read the genealogy in Matthew 1, and there you see Bathsheba in that and the physical lineage of Jesus along with Tamar back in Genesis 38 and a lot of other scandalous situations. And you see the idea that God has always known that through flawed people the perfect Savior would come. And so that's a great point that you know there were other sons. In fact, when you go read the lineage in Luke, which I think is the difference in the father and the. And the mother and the father, you see the lineage line come through another son of David and not Solomon, but the royal line, that's the line that was chosen. And I think there was reason for that. And I think it's the one that's full of all these, you know, flawed people and terrible decisions because God has always known our shortcomings from the garden to Christ, which is why he came. So I don't know Zach. I can think of a better way to. Is Zach there? Oh, okay. Well, I won't carry it back to him then. So I can't think of a better way, like to wrap this whole thing of David than the idea that it was always towards the eternal covenant promise that God never left.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

No matter what happened. And in spite of. Now, I don't know how many decades we're talking about here over this last part of David's life, but this was a long stretch of this like non confidence insecurity. I mean this, this was a big chunk of David's life. And yet you see him come back to his roots.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of having this heart for God. So I do think it's a. It's a great story of redemption and renewal and everything we talked about from Psalm 51. But I also think it's a cautionary tale that we made. The point of the rooftop. What do you call it? Rooftop scrolling. That the idea is that if you start down a progressive trail with the evil one, he will lead you to places you do not want to go. And you remember when Satan went after Jesus directly, he tried to appeal to the same things. Basic desire. Oh, you're hungry. You hadn't eaten for 40 days. Well, why don't you just make some bread? There's stones everywhere. You got the power. You can do this. And then every time, Jesus rebuffed him by saying, no, God only. God only when he got to the end. Look at all the kingdoms of the earth. Aren't they great? You know, they belong to me. And Jesus didn't even dispute that. What did he say? Worship the Lord your God and serve him only. So I think the pathway to the peace we're looking for is in the little decisions every day because they're the ones that the evil one sets the trap for you. And then one bad decision can lead to the next, can lead to the next. And that's when you see the tale here. So it's more than just a tale of redemption. It's a cautionary tale as well. So I don't know, any final thoughts y' all have before we wrap it?

[C]

No, I thought it was awesome. I mean, David's one of my favorite characters in the Bible, and I thought Dorothy Jackson did a great job articulating his life and even starting, you know, before that with, with First Samuel, with. With. Oh, gosh, Eli and Hannah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. Yeah. But I thought it was. I thought it was awesome. I. I learned so much, and I. I really love looking at it from that lens of the personal and political. That was something that I really took away. So, looking forward to whatever our next study is. But I thought that David was awesome.

[B]

I know.

[D]

I feel like these just keep getting better.

[B]

Yeah. Well, we're. We're still discussing on where we're headed from here, so it'll be a surprise to you guys, but we want to hear from you.

[C]

We should do.

[B]

Yeah, send it. Well, once, you know, we kind of follow the plan of our audience, but we, we love having you guys along for the ride. Just As a reminder, unashamedforhillsdale.com is where you go to sign up for the course. It's free. You get to not only get some great teaching from the folks at Hillsdale, but you get our discussion on it as well. So we love that you're taking the journey with us. It's been a lot of fun for us, too. So we'll see you next week on the Unashamed for Hillsdale podcast.

[A]

Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamed for hillsdale.com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.