Ep 1259 | Why the Robertsons Reject the Idea That Pro-Life Is Just an Opinion

Summary

Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode: Ep 1259 | Why the Robertsons Reject the Idea That Pro-Life Is Just an Opinion
Date: January 30, 2026
Host: Tread Lively (Zach) with John Luke, Christian, Al
Theme: Exploring the objectivity of truth and the Christian pro-life stance through the lens of C.S. Lewis, faith, philosophy, and personal story.

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, the Robertson family digs into big questions about the nature of truth, why being pro-life goes beyond "just an opinion," and how C.S. Lewis’s journey to Christianity can illuminate the Christian walk today. Using stories from Lewis’s own philosophical wrestling, the Robertsons address how reason, objective good and evil, and the drama of the Gospel are more than matters of taste. The conversation is rich with personal anecdotes, references to pop culture, and reflections on how faith intersects with both philosophy and everyday life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Objectivity, Reason, and the Christian Worldview (05:47–10:19)

• The crew delves into their current Hillsdale College study on C.S. Lewis, focusing on his insistence that beliefs must make sense—truth is not simply subjective.
• Quote:
  “C.S. Lewis said, ‘I can't believe things unless it makes sense.’” — Zach (05:47)
• Reference: The law of non-contradiction: a thing cannot be both true and untrue at the same time.
• John Luke connects these thoughts to culture, recalling Ronald Reagan’s pro-life quip:
  “You have to be born to have an opinion one way or the other.” (07:52)
• The idea: Being "pro-life" is grounded in objective reality, not mere preference.

2. C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Evil, and Conversion (10:19–13:04)

• Zach shares a succinct version of Lewis’s argument on evil and God:
  • “I don't believe in God because objective evil exists, but objective evil can't exist unless God exists…Therefore God must exist.”
• Lewis’s own conversion—helped along by J.R.R. Tolkien and Hugo Dyson—is a central theme; the journey from doubt and skepticism to belief is mapped out as a universal human path.

3. Intellectual Arguments vs. Story and Imagination (13:04–23:48)

• Christian and John Luke reflect on Lewis’s initial delight in mythological tales and initial discomfort with the Gospel story, noting how Tolkien and Dyson convinced Lewis to see the Gospel as the "true myth."
• The group notes: Many are inspired by imaginative stories, but balk at the Bible’s claims until they are invited to view it as drama rather than mere doctrine.
  • Quote:
    “Can you just put that [logic] to the side? ... Can you relax into the Christian story?” — Zach (22:09)
• Personal parallels: John Luke and Zach share their own conversion stories, highlighting environmental and intellectual backgrounds—but finding unity in intersection with Christ’s story.

4. The Power and Limits of Apologetics (23:48–27:27)

• Zach admits the limits of pure intellectual apologetics for making converts—but Al pushes back, sharing his own childhood impact:
  “It makes us think about it. … It's a slow learning and a deep learning.” — Al (25:34)
• The group agrees: apologetics may not create instant conversion, but it plants seeds and fosters a search for truth.

5. C.S. Lewis’s Approach: Beyond Fundamentalism and Subjectivism (27:27–32:44)

• Al argues Lewis would be controversial today for pushing back against both cultural relativism and Christian dogmatism, noting Lewis’s method of asking big questions rather than giving simple answers.
  • “The point was the question.” — Al (30:16)
• The crew explores how Lewis’s philosophical wrestling is needed in a culture that often skips nuance.

6. Beauty, Myth, and Participation in God’s Story (32:44–40:59)

• Zach highlights Lewis’s and Professor Ward’s idea that Christian faith is ultimately about participating in divine story—not just intellectual ascent.
  • Quote:
    “We are partakers of the divine nature. Christ has invited us in.” — Zach (32:44)
• The symbolism in the Narnia series is applauded for drawing children and adults deeper into Christian truth, sparking real curiosity and delight.
• The “V-shaped descent-and-ascent” is explained—mirroring Christ’s incarnation, death, and resurrection, and the Christian life.
• Lewis’s conversion and the Christian path are described as bittersweet: ascent out of the depths always involves struggle and honest reckoning with pain.

7. Conversion: Loss, Descent, and New Life (40:59–44:43)

• The group shares personal and family stories of conversion, underscoring that entering the Christian story may not “fix” everything—sometimes life temporarily gets harder.
• Zach says:
  “We tell people, ‘Come to Jesus and everything’s going to be better than it’s ever been,’ and my experience is, it’s been very painful, but I am becoming who Christ has called me to be.” (40:59)

8. Christianity as “True Myth” and the Fulfillment of All Stories (44:43–48:51)

• The team unpacks Lewis’s insistence that Christianity is the “true myth”—it is a real story fulfilling all other yearnings found in human myths.
  • “A myth doesn’t mean false. … It is a real story.” — Zach (47:05)
• This idea addresses both skeptics who claim Christianity replicates earlier myths and believers who might balk at the word "myth" itself.

9. Seeking, Discomfort, and Openness to Truth (49:04–50:10)

• Christian brings up the intriguing idea from Lewis (via Dr. Ward) that “we sometimes must be deceived in order to pursue what is truly good.”
• John Luke clarifies: Only discomfort or a disruption in our worldview (“dismay”) pushes us to seek a new story—a biblical version of “blessed are the poor in spirit.”

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Notable Quotes / Memorable Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• On Objective Truth:
  “C.S. Lewis said, ‘I can't believe things unless it makes sense.’” — Zach (05:47)
• On Pro-Life:
  “You have to be born to have an opinion one way or the other.” — John Luke (07:52, citing Reagan)
• On Apologetics & Conversion:
  “You know how many people I saw come to Christ through those arguments? Goose egg.” — Zach (21:25)
  “But my experience has been… that He had gone through more of the intellectual side… but what moved him was… can you just relax into the Christian story?” — Zach (22:09)
• On Lewis’s Timelessness:
  “I don't think that if C.S. Lewis was alive today… he would be as well loved as he is right now.” — Al (27:27)
• On Christianity as Myth:
  “He believed in the myth as the true myth. This is the one that's true.” — Zach (48:51)
• On Descent and Ascent:
  “Down, down further, up, up further. …That is the Romans 6 passage. …Old man goes down… raised up even further to live that new life.” — Zach (42:56)
• On The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe:
  “Is he quite safe? … Safe? Who said anything about safe? Of course he isn't safe. But he's good. He's the king, I tell you.” — Zach (40:28, quoting Lewis)

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Important Timestamps

• Philosophy, Reason, and C.S. Lewis: 05:47–07:52
• Reagan Quote, Pro-Life Stance: 07:52–10:19
• Lewis’s Conversion & Problem of Evil: 10:19–13:04
• Relaxing into the Christian Story: 21:25–23:48
• The Limits and Power of Apologetics: 23:48–27:27
• Lewis’s Challenging of Both Sides: 27:27–32:44
• Christianity as Story, Participation, and Symbol: 32:44–40:59
• Descent, Pain and Real Conversion: 40:59–44:43
• Christianity as “True Myth”: 44:43–48:51
• Discomfort Spurs Searching, Parable Connection: 49:04–50:10

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Tone & Takeaways

• Warm, candid, slightly irreverent, and philosophical with deep personal resonance and humor.
• Message: Faith isn’t just opinion or tradition; it’s rooted in objective truth, which is discoverable and beckons us through story, reason, and life experience.
• Conversion is complex, often involving struggle, but it deepens us and roots us in the truest story of all.
• The group encourages listeners to stretch their minds, seek wisdom, and allow their own story to intersect with the story of Christ.

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For listeners:
This episode offers a thoughtful mix of theology, philosophy, and Robertson family authenticity. Whether you’re questioning, seeking, or steadfast, the conversation challenges you to examine not just what you believe, but why you believe it—and how the story of Jesus might be truer and more beautiful than you ever imagined.

Transcript

[Zach]

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. We are at our second CS Lewis episode. We've upgraded with some coffee from John Luke, who took a rather long break to go fix one cup of coffee.

[John Luke]

I'm the one on the time constraint. And then I asked John Luke to make me some coffee because it's nice having, like, a coffee guru amongst our people, you know, because I love good coffee. And we're doing this in the afternoon because our schedules are so crazy, and so I have to have it, especially talking about the objectivity of reason and all that.

[Christian]

Why do you have a heart out today?

[John Luke]

I got to get my teeth clean.

[Christian]

After you're drinking black coffee.

[John Luke]

I brought a thing of floss and some because I get so nervous about going in to have someone work on your mouth, you know, right after you've had coffee or whatever.

[Christian]

So, yeah, black coffee before a dentist appointment's got. Bold move.

[Zach]

Well, that is a bold move, but that's no better time. Get it cleaned up, get them bleached outside. Sai has new teeth, which was. He made his debut on the podcast, so that did that kind of push you to, like, make sure.

[John Luke]

I mean, I'm just getting mine clean, Zach. It's not like I'm pulling them all out of my head. It's not quite that dramatic. What got me about psy was that he waited till 77 years old, but then I finally found out why. And I don't know if I should. If I can say this, but I'm going to. I guess we can always cut it, Matt, if it's. If it's not right. But I said, well, Si, why did you do this? Wait till 77? He said, hey, because it's free. So the guy apparently traded side the work for whatever side's doing for him, so.

[Zach]

Well, that's worth it.

[Al]

Hey, well, it was worth it because they. Look, he has all his teeth now.

[John Luke]

Oh, he's amazing.

[Zach]

Yeah. I've never seen him look that good. He looks great.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Well, this is unashamed for Hillsdale. You guys can check it out. Unashamedforhillsdale.com you can take the course with us. We're going through the work of C.S. lewis, which is super exciting. My brother's a dentist, by the way, Al, so if you lived up here, you might get a discount.

[John Luke]

I don't want your brother anywhere near my teeth. I'm just going to tell you right now, he's got. I love him to death, but this man, he may just Implant something in there that later he could, you know, make me suffer. I don't know. Grant's got a sadistic personality at times, so I don't want him anywhere near my teeth.

[Zach]

Sound like an anti dentite.

[John Luke]

Yeah, I'm an anti Grantite. I'll tell you, if he's the dentist.

[Zach]

One of the best Seinfeld episodes. What does he say? Your. Next thing you know you're going to say they should have their own school. He's like, they do.

[John Luke]

There you go. Thank you for bringing up Seinfeld because the young people don't appreciate Seinfeld anymore because, you know, it's not. It's a 30 year old television show, but people my age love it.

[Al]

We watched the whole thing. Mary Kay and I watched the every episode of Seinfeld. Loved it.

[John Luke]

Yeah. And it was like new to you, right?

[Al]

It's new.

[John Luke]

Yeah. It's so good, isn't it?

[Al]

It's still funny.

[John Luke]

And it's so funny because a lot like the Office is kind of Yalls era, I guess. Is that right?

[Zach]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

And then so. And I love the Office too, by the way. Love the Office. But Seinfeld was a little different animal. But it's funny because a lot of new generation, they don't think Seinfeld is very funny. And especially because, you know, you know, it was old comedy that, you know, you could make fun of somebody and it didn't mean you were demeaning a race of people or whatever, whatever, like the anti denti. But there were all these like double meanings and that's what made it funny. And it was kind of like old comedy that now people are kind of run away from. So. But it seems to be coming back.

[Zach]

So it's coming back. Seinfeld was classic though, and there's a little bit more nuance to the humor than slapstick comedy. Yeah. So you gotta. It is more of a higher brow humor, I'll admit. But man, I love some Seinfeld.

[John Luke]

Well, that fits. What we're doing in this course because we're in highbrow country right now, Christian and I have been brought into the world of philosophy and apologetics. But I will say it's been great. Everything we've done in this Hillsdale study, all of our biblical study, as well as now what we're doing with CS Lewis has helped me grow. And you know, as someone who's 61 years old, I've spent my entire adult life studying the Bible, teaching, traveling around the country, trying to help people. Just what we're talking about today, which is people converting to Christianity, changing their life. You can never stop learning, and you never want to quit reading and quit exposing your mind to things that can help you grow. And so I just think it's been great. And I hope you guys out there, I know you're listening, so you're going along the ride with us. But tell other people about it too, because we want them to experience this. And Hillsdale is a great opportunity of just what we talked about last time, this idea that objective truth will clear the path to water and irrigate those deserts out there. Young people coming in, wanting to know what they need to know.

[Christian]

Yeah, that's what's been cool about the course. It's like whether it's been Genesis, Exodus, David, or now C.S. lewis, like, I'm writing a. Like a devotional series now on David because of how inspired and encouraged I was doing the Hillsdale course because it made me want to learn more and study more. And usually when you take courses, you know, it'll be that's all you want to do. You don't really want to, you know, go do more things outside of that and kind of keep studying it, post lectures. But with everything we've done so far, I've just kept reading Genesis, I've kept reading Exodus, I've kept reading David because the. Yeah, just the lectures and whoever's taught them has encouraged me and inspired me so much that I've wanted to actually stay in the material and keep learning. So it's been actually awesome and really, really beneficial for me.

[Zach]

Yeah. One of the things that I didn't mention that in the last episode, but I think it's key when I kind of mentioned it. I take that back. I mentioned it at the very end when I mentioned Dr. Starnes or doctor. Sorry, doctor. When I mentioned Dr. Ahrens introductory episode to the course, he had mentioned that C.S. lewis said, I can't believe things unless it makes sense. And I thought about what. Like, there's a lot to that statement. It sounds like kind of simple, but really there's a lot of depth in the way that C.S. lewis acquired a certain belief system. It had to make sense. And I was thinking back to, you know, there's another philosopher named Rene Descartes. And most of us have heard this phrase before, but we've heard this phrase. I think you all know the rest of it.

[John Luke]

Therefore I am.

[Zach]

Yeah, I think therefore I am. And so this became like a really famous saying in our culture. But what Descartes was essentially Getting at was that the most foundational thing that you could know to be true, the most fundamental thing that a person could know to be true, is that they exist because in order to contemplate their existence, in order to think, they must exist in order to contemplate their own existence. And so that was like the most fundamental thing that you can know to be true. But there's actually something even more fundamental than that that I think Lewis was hitting on. And it is that law of non contradiction that things have to make sense, that something can't be true and not be true at the same time, that things happen have to make sense. And so his method of figuring out what's true about the world, about God, about the claims of Christianity, the claims of any other belief system, is in the end, does it make sense? And that's what he was moving towards. And so I think that's the foundation of his whole work, is just trying to figure out what actually makes sense. And I think that's good for us too, as we move into his life.

[John Luke]

Especially now, we're calling it kind of the return the era, the return to common sense in terms of as a people. Because last couple of decades, that's great, let's be admitted. It's been crazy in terms of politics and a lot of other things. When you said that, Zach, it took me back to something Ronald Reagan said when he was talking about, you know, being pro life or pro choice. And he said, well, the thing about it is you have to be born to have an opinion one way or the other. And I just thought that was such a powerful thing because it was, it's true. Like in other words, if you're on the side where you're for abortion, you're on the side for somebody not being ever, ever to have that opinion that you hold because you've ended there a possibility to do that. And so I think that's another one of those just straight common truths and objectivity we should look at. And it really ties into this because you remember in abolition of man, C.S. lewis uses it was three things. That's interesting when you go to people's era is his examples, the airplane, the wireless and contraceptive. That was his three things to talk about. Those things out there that change, you know, it can become subjective for people. And he talked because he talks about with the airplane that people are just starting to go on an airplane. He said, but so you think, oh, this gives me all this freedom, but only if they'll take you where you want to go. Was his point about objective? Or in other words, if that thing's out on land at the right time at the right place, then you're not free at all. Whoever's in charge of the airplane is in charge. And he uses the same thing about contraceptives. And it was interesting because probably in his mindset there, he couldn't have even imagined abortion, but I guess contraceptives were new. And he took that as the idea that somehow now we're planning the future, meaning that we're going to be in charge of that. But his point was, every time there's a future, then whatever you've planned, they're a slave to what you've planned for them, which is very interesting. You don't think about that, what you do for the next generation. So I just thought those were interesting thoughts. Back to that argument about objective versus subjective. And of course, ultimately, it's what led him to Christ, because his argument was suffering. He was like, how could there be a God if it's such a cruel place? And so then he basically ridiculed Christianity for what he claimed. Until, like, Zach, you said at the end of our last podcast, he came to that point and said, but that is objective. Like, my thought is objective, so there must be something more. Why would I even have this morality? Why would I care about cruelty unless there was something in me?

[Zach]

Yeah, well, I wrote out kind of an argument of how I interpreted CS Lewis backing into the Christian faith through the problem of evil. And this is how it goes. I think it'll make sense. I don't believe in God because objective evil exists, but objective evil can't exist unless God exists. And objective evil does exist. Therefore God must exist. So that's how he backed into the argument. He looks at the world and he's like, man, how could all. All of this horrible pain and evil and abuse and disease and horrible, horrible things, how could this exist in a world where there was a God? And then the question is, well, why is it horrible? Why is it bad? Why are these things bad? And without God, you really can't make a. You can't come up with a coherent reason for why any of that is evil. Why is the Holocaust evil without God? It's just. It's just chemical physical reactions that are happening. What makes something inherently evil or inherently good is that it has to be objective. And so the very like. And think about where you live at, like, it's really the most real thing that you can know. Like when someone that you love dies and you feel that pain, or when there's a divorce in your family and you feel that pain, or when there's a child that's born and you feel overwhelming joy, whatever that is, that good or bad, that you're absorbing and feeling, it transcends anything else that you know. And it may be the most fundamental thing that you can know is that, man, I don't know why, but that is good. And I don't know why, but that is horrible. Well, it's objectively good or evil.

[John Luke]

We want you guys to take the course with us. So you can sign up. It's free at unashamedforhillsdale.com, you know, and what I love about it is his conversion, because, again, I didn't even know he was converted. I kind of always assumed he probably was always a Christian and grew up with a pastor dad or something like that and became the man he became. And so I was fascinated by his story. And the fact that J.R.R. tolkien, I mean, who was one of the guys that led him to Christ, blew me away once again, because I had no idea. I didn't even know he was a Christian or a believer. And I've loved all his stuff, his works. I've read them, watched the movies. And so the fact that he and another guy took the time to tell the story and shape this man that would shape so many others, I think really is the heart of Christianity. Now, the first one really was hard for me to wrap my brain around. Today's lesson and today's lecture is right in my wheelhouse, because it's about leading people to the story, because, you know. Yeah.

[Christian]

And I thought the way Professor Ward did that was cool, because, you know, it was. It was C.S. lewis talking, and then he said, dyson. He said, another guy who's not as well known.

[John Luke]

It's kind of like me, Jason. Zach.

[Zach]

I was gonna say that, but I.

[Christian]

Didn'T want to be offensive.

[John Luke]

I know. I don't mind.

[Zach]

I'll say, well, there was an article that Dynasty stars.

[John Luke]

Oh, and the guy.

[Zach]

Yeah, there's a. There's a Fox News article, but I.

[Christian]

Didn'T want to be offensive.

[Zach]

No, I'm already mad about that. There's a Fox News article that. I'm just going to throw it out there, because this does make me mad. Like that. It's. We had this great conversation, which was my idea to bring it out. Right.

[John Luke]

You sent me the material, and then.

[Zach]

The article, literally, it's about an episode we did, and it references Al and Jace's conversation. I'm not even in the picture. And a couple of the lines, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I said that. I haven't gone back to verify yet, but I think they took my lines and attributed them to Jace. So, yeah, I'm the forgotten guy. I'm the Hugo Dyson of the team.

[John Luke]

So the clickbait was Doug, that is stars discussed this incident. And another guy.

[Zach]

I didn't even get another guy. I didn't even get that one.

[John Luke]

You're the other guy that also was there with CS Lewis and Tolkien. So there you go.

[Zach]

Well, it was Tolkien. You know, what's. There's a pub in England. And Jill and I went there when we. We went recently or last year.

[Christian]

We went.

[Zach]

We went to London. We actually got to go to the kilns and see where. See Lewis's house is. We went to Oxford. We did the whole thing. It was. It was pretty awesome. We went to his grave, went to his church. It was quite the experience because I'm kind of a CS Lewis buff. But there was, you know, when you think about. There's a pub there where he would drink beers with. I'm sure Dyson was there, but Tolkien was there, and I think T.S. eliot was there as well. And you think about the brilliance around those conversations. I would like. To me, that would be the best movie that someone should make, is a movie of these guys who. All of them are just brilliant in their own right, but, I mean, independently, they were amazing. But can you imagine that collective conversation between these guys?

[Christian]

Well, you run a production company, Zach. You could.

[John Luke]

Yeah. Make that movie.

[Al]

You could make that movie.

[Zach]

If anybody's got a bunch of money they want to spend on a movie, call me up. I will make the movie, but I don't have enough money to fund it, so I need investors.

[Christian]

It won't be free like Hillsdale, but you can.

[Zach]

It won't be free. Yeah, it won't be free. Like, he's not anywhere close to free.

[Christian]

But no. I thought that story was so cool of just thinking about. Yeah. The three of those men who were so brilliant just walking around campus at nighttime and they kind of challenged Lewis to think about the Bible. Yeah. More as a drama and as a story and because you see that with people. And I thought it was cool. The way Professor War was talking about that with Lewis was that he would. He loved the idea of the Bible. In other words, situations like whether it was mythology or these, because he was like, I love the idea of a God sacrificing himself basically, to Himself, if.

[John Luke]

It were Bacchus or one of these pagan deals, loved it.

[Zach]

In the pagan world, yeah.

[Christian]

But when he got in the Bible, he didn't like it. And I think you see that with people all the time. It's like they love these other principles, but then when it gets in the Bible, it's. They don't. Something about it gets squirrely to them. But. But yeah, just thinking about those three men just walking around campus at night and them challenging Lewis. And it was that simple framework of just read the Bible through a drama and storylines and kind of take out all the theological and all the, you know, the more, you know, higher thinking stuff and just read it as a drama. And that's pretty much what converted him back to Christianity. But I thought him saying. I thought Lewis saying that he loved the idea in the more pagan sense, he loved that. But something about the Bible, it kind of turned him off. I thought that was interesting.

[John Luke]

And that was really how they got him to reconsider it was to look at the story of Christ, look at the story of the Bible and take it for what it is, not what you presuppose going into it. And I'm almost sure that there's no way that he wasn't impacted by that early life experience, because, remember, I think it was his mother's father was an Anglican pastor or whatever they would call him back then. And so he had that experience and then he went through the thing at the school and then he went through the thing where he basically lost his vision or faith at all for then a big chunk of his life until he's older. And so you can see how that impacts you. And I even thought about Zach. You mentioned a little bit on the last podcast about how you came to faith, and it was kind of like him. It was like. Because you grew up, I mean, I know you grew up knowing about Christ because of your mom and dad. And my aunt, who's Zach's mom, is one of the most amazing spiritual, godly women you ever met. I mean, talking about know the book and know the Word, and yet you had to come to it yourself. I mean, you couldn't just rely on that. At some point, you had to come to that realization. And I think it was similar with Lewis for sure. For me, mine was less about that and more just about environmental because I grew up in a terrible situation which we made a movie, Jack made a movie about. And, you know, the little kid running around is just a kid in a movie, unless it's you, you know, and then you watch the movie and you're like, whoa. You know, and you remember back what that was like. And so for me, it was more just survival. And then all of a sudden it was like, we're in this good situation. Like, it was good, and dad is there, and he's like, trying to do the right thing and still slipping a little bit here and there. But, I mean, you just saw him trying. And then all of a sudden, I just. I lost my bearings because everything I had known changed. And even though it changed for the better, you think, well, man, that's the perfect situation for you. But sometimes it's not, because now all the old ways of thinking are all upside down. And so a lot of times in my mind at my age, that became a doubt point for me. And it wasn't really doubting God. I just didn't know that I wanted to be godly anymore. And I had been for a long time, because now all of a sudden, my world was godly and I started darkening. So I became a prodigal son for, like, four years. And first it was just hiding in plain sight. And then finally I did just like the Luke 15 kid, and I hit the road. And then I came to the point of realizing, like my dad did, that if I stay here, I'll die here. And I'll die here. Not the way I want it. It's terrible. It's miserable. It's a miserable existence to be alone, not have your family, not have anybody. And so then I come back to Christ now finally heart and hand open to who he is. And so at 18 years old, I mean, that started my journey. And so. But it was completely different than this experience. But that's the beauty of Christ. And God is wherever you are, whether it's environmental, intellectual, some other setting or situation or someplace, you don't know anything about God. You may grow up in three generations and nobody ever talked about God. And then all of a sudden the story hits you and you realize that, man, this gives me some meaning, gives me something good. So my story, Zach, was completely different from yours, but we now share that same bond.

[Zach]

I don't know if it was that different. I mean, I think as you were talking about that, I was thinking about with Lewis. You know, I get a ton. I've gotten a lot of pushback over the years on teaching apologetics and presenting apologetics, mainly in the form of you're intellectualizing the faith or some version of that. You're making it too smart or what it's too this or too heady or whatever. It's some version of that. And I understand the pushback in it. And I will say this, that I have gone down the rabbit hole with people on, like back in. Not in the last probably 12 years, but up until about 12 years ago. You want to get into a discussion on apologetics, you want to get into a debate on the merits of Christianity, you want to talk about intelligent design, you want to talk whatever, like, let's go. And I would argue until I was blue in the face. And you know how many people that I saw come to Christ through those arguments? Goose egg. I never really did. And I think for me, it was super helpful in apologetics. It has been super helpful for me in my own personal journey and answering objections and being intellectually satisfied and all of that. But my experience has been very similar to what C.S. lewis. What happened to him is that he had gone through more of the intellectual side of it and had wound up, at least in this moment, where he's taken walks with Dyson and Tolkien, where he was addicted to more of a deist. So he believed intellectually that these things were true. But to your point, which I thought was probably the best point of this whole entire lecture, was what Christian was talking about, how he would approach the pagan religions. And he would be like, this is beautiful. I love this. I'm inspired by it. But it came to Christ. He's like, ugh, I can't accept it. And the reason why, what moved him was when Tolkien and Dyson, I wrote it down because I thought it was expressed very beautiful, very beautiful by Dr. Ward, is that they encouraged him to forget about the theological and logical explanations for a minute. We're not throwing it away. We're just. For a minute, can you just put that to the side? I can just imagine them saying, just settle down with all of that heavy intellectual stuff. And for a moment, can you relax into the Christian story? And I love the way that sounds and the picture that that paints. Can you relax into the Christian story? Can you enjoy the story of Jesus Christ and explore it with imagination? And probably the last 10 years of my life, I've been focused more on that. The imagination that is cultivated when we explore the story of King Jesus. And that to me, is the ultimate apologetic that transcends some kind of intellectual argument. Not that that's bad. Not that that that's something we shouldn't be engaged in, but man, Christ has invited us into a story. So when you al. The language you just used was that same language. You accepted an invitation into a new story. You were restoried, and I have been restoried and continue to be restored. So I found that to be extremely powerful. Point of this whole entire lecture.

[John Luke]

Yeah. And the way that. And we want you to sign up, by the way. Take the course with us. [e-mail] the way I describe it, the wording I use, Zach, and it's very similar to some of the wording Dr. Ward used, was I say that my story finally intersected Christ's story, which had always been there. In other words, Christ's story was there, but my story finally intersected. And it only intersects when you're finally open to the idea of who Christ is. And I love the way that they described Dr. Ward does in the lecture, how he first believed in God, but then he came to believe in Christ. And he Even quoted John 14:6, When Jesus says, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father God except through me. So in other words, you have to go on that journey to get there. And I've even thought about it, Zach. Just look at the historical timing of it. Like this was in 1931 when this happened for C.S. lewis and his lecture series on the radio, which was the airwaves he talked about, you know, in. In this book, was. Is second only to Winston Churchill's addresses about the war itself.

[Christian]

Yeah, that was a cool fact.

[John Luke]

Very powerful. And so you think about the whole world that was getting that at the time and getting those lectures. And if he had not become a believer in 1931, he wouldn't have been available to this stack of books and much more to do those lectures for all those people in the hardest, most difficult time up until that point, you know, in human history for the modern world. And he was there. He was God's guy in the moment, but only because his story intersected with Christ's story. I mean, what a powerful thing to show you how powerful God.

[Al]

A couple things thinking about CS Lewis overall. But before that, Zach, I want to push back on you saying that you never saw someone converted through your apologetics, because I think that one of the powerful ways that apologetics teaches us about God and have people share about God is that it makes us think about it. And it's a slow learning and it's a deep learning. It's not a, like, altar call moment, so you don't see people get baptized, but it does shift minds. And I think that definitely happened. And specifically for me, I Think about myself as a kid listening to you preach apologetics at Whitesbury Road. I think it was like a special, like, Wednesday night thing.

[John Luke]

Yeah, I did a series. Yeah.

[Al]

Yeah, series. And I remember sitting there as a kid think, watching you guess how old I would have been, but thinking like, oh, wow, there's more to this. And like, starting to think deeply and hearing, like, the. All the different. The ontological argument, the cosmological argument, like, being exposed to all of that for the first time and starting to think deeper, and that was just impactful for me.

[Zach]

Wow.

[John Luke]

Thank you. There you go.

[Zach]

That is awesome. Well, can you. Will you put that on Instagram?

[John Luke]

Yes.

[Al]

Clip that. There's your clip for this episode.

[Zach]

Clip that and tag me hashtag.

[Christian]

Well, it's funny. You started back, was saying you wanted to push back, but then you ended up making Zach the happy push back.

[Zach]

I'm like, let's keep up.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Well, it's true, though. I mean, I think in this particular thing is about his. Like, when they talk about his conversion. But I think you're right. It is a. I mean, like, to get to the point, even in C.S. lewis's conversion moment, you know, that there were years before these conversations and these long walks that he would take with his friends that paved the way for this conversion. So that's. That's actually a really good point. I received that.

[Al]

Well, my next point on CS Lewis is. I really think. I don't think this is. This might be a hot take, but I don't think it is. I don't think that if C.S. lewis was alive today and he was writing today, I don't think that he would be as well loved as he is right now.

[John Luke]

I think you're right.

[Al]

I think one thing he did so well at the time that is actually applicable to us is he pushed back on both sides. He was against subjectivism. He really challenged that in, like, a cultural worldview, but he also really pushed back on fundamentalism and dogma and beliefs and not questioning the Bible. And so he. He really challenged both sides. And I think if he was saying the things he was saying and you were watching it on TikTok or Reels while you were scrolling through, I think he would get so much hate from Christians saying, like, he's not quoting the Bible, he's not reading the Bible. He's making it to whatever. He's being too philosophy, like, philosophical. Because if you read these books and this whole stack of them, rarely does he quote a verse in all of his Narnia books, rarely does he make like a specific Bible quote? But what he does is he asks these questions like, what is the problem of pain? Why do we suffer? Why do I feel sadness even though I'm joyful? And he wrestles through these questions. And you watch him wrestle through the questions in the books from a philosophical perspective that you just don't see in like the mainstream now.

[John Luke]

You're not really allowed to do it.

[Al]

You're not. Right. And you don't see it. You don't see the wrestling. But that's what he's doing in the books. And there's. And even to say this, this might be a hot take, I don't. There's things that there's answers to those questions and the arguments that he makes that are very outdated from a philosophical perspective. Like modern atheists or theologians or whoever the people debating right now are, have new answers to the questions and have quote, unquote, beaten some of the answers that C.S. lewis provides in these books from a modern perspective. But that's okay. Like, that's how, like that's what philosophy is. Arguments go on, arguments go on. But we as Christians and as a culture, we, I think kind of got stuck on some of these C.S. lewis argument and was like, that's the answer. When really the. The point was the question.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Al]

Was the arguing it and was from looking at it from a philosophical perspective versus I think what we see a lot, what we do have a lot now, which is scientific perspectives, Bible literature perspectives. Like we have a lot of those apologists and I think they're doing really good work, but we don't have this like philosophical mindset like CS Lewis had at the time.

[Zach]

Yeah, I had a very well known Christian apologist on the Not yet now podcast and someone who I've read a lot of his work, respect a lot, and think is absolutely brilliant. So let me say that. But I asked him the question, kind of like what Lewis is talking about here or what Dr. Ward was talking about of just like when CS Lewis buddies were like, man, can you just like relax into the Christian story? Can you just enjoy the story of Christ? Can you just explore it with imagination? And I was asking this particular apologist about just the beauty of the Gospel, just the beauty of the kingdom, just the beauty of the story of Christ. And I said, what do you think about that? Like, don't we need more apologists? Like, how would you talk about the intersection of aesthetics and beauty when it comes to the story of Jesus and how we participate in that? And he was like, stunned by the question. And he was like, I've never thought about it. He said, but I think that'd be a good field of study for somebody to go into. And I'm like, no, I'm not talking about a field of study. I'm talking about like a real participation in the life of Christ. And I think that's what's interesting. To your point, John Lucas? I don't think Lewis was trying to construct a systematic apologetic so that we had an answer and a flowchart for every objection that's one might have towards Christianity. What he did instead was really open up the story in a way that you could sit into it. And I love the way that Dr. Ward said that he became a participant in the story of Christ in 1931. I love that language. He became a participant in the story of Christ. And I thought about al that what we talk about so much on the podcast, that we are partakers of the divine nature Christ has invited us into to participate in the inner life of God. Lewis painted over and over and over again a picture that stirs my imagination for just that very thing.

[John Luke]

I love another phrase that was used. I think it was in Abolition of Man, and that was effective believer. Or it could have been mere Christianity, but that's another gray one. I mean, that's right there. A participant, an effective believer. In other words, it's one thing to be a believer, but to be effective, that means you have to be willing to be used to be effective. And I like the picture you painted, John Luke, because it also shows you that the kingdom of God needs a broad structure in it to be able to be effective. And so, you know, if you try to be all things, you know, you're probably not do any one thing really effectively. It's better. Everybody has a gift or an ability. And we talked about just our group around the table. We have different things that we're good at. And so those are the things I stick to, what I'm best at. I want to expose myself to every thought that's out there that helps me grow as an individual. But I know there's areas that I'm good at. Text in the Bible, that's who I need to be. That's my wheelhouse. That's where I need to go. But, man, to study this and to listen and hear you guys talk about it, it inspires me because. Or to go see Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe or one of those movies, you know, I totally see the nuance of how he's bringing out these pictures of Christ through Aslan and all these different things. And so I thought, man, that's brilliant, because that was beautiful art about what we believe. And it was done subtly. And, you know, I used to think he was doing it just to, like, hide it, but now I realize that's just who he is. I mean, it's just the way approaches this. I think the Kingdom of God is such a large movement. You go to Hebrews 12 and you read about it. I mean, this is going across human history. This is other beings, this is us, this is philosophers, this is pastors. And we're all in this thing to try to get to this relationship with God. So I think it's beautiful.

[Christian]

Yeah, the nuance of the line, the witch and the warb is. It's pretty incredible. Me and John were talking about that earlier when we were driving in together of just how. Yeah, because the thing that's so cool about Lewis is that, you know, in the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, it's. He kind of takes his higher thinking and kind of makes it simple, you know, for kids to understand with the Wardrobe and with Aslan and then the Witch and, you know, just kind of the way that the, you know, you see the good versus the evil. But, yeah, it makes you watch the movie and makes you read the book, but it. It makes you, you know, want to deep dig deeper into those. Into those meanings because it is nuance and it is. You know, because kind of like. Kind of like what you said, you don't know if it's. If he's trying to hide it, but it is. It's hidden enough to. Where you have to actually go seek out something beyond that and kind of find the. The deeper truths in it. But, yeah, I haven't seen that movie in forever, but. But listening to these lectures and talking about it makes me really go back.

[John Luke]

See the whole series again. And, you know, he mentioned something I want to get into. I'm glad you brought up about the movie in the book. In that particular book. And then it's in apparently several other ones. This idea of. He called it a V shape where you have to descend to ascend. Yeah. You know, he talks about. He said descent, utter dissent, and then ascension, which is that idea of brokenness and, like, coming to Christ. And he experienced it as well. And the way he talked about was this. It was bittersweet, this idea and dismay and discomfort coming to Christianity because otherwise. And that was one of the stories his first writing after he became a Christian was, remember the Guy that sees the island and then, you know, so he's trying to figure out how he's going to get there. But he never would have gotten there had he not been dismayed and uncomfortable. Otherwise he would stay there. Because obviously, CS Lewis is talking about himself because he had this intellectual picture and he was going forward, and there was no God. So they didn't have to worry about everything. Until one day he realized that his own objective truth led him to the idea there had to be a God. Well, now he's uncomfortable.

[Christian]

I got that question wrong on the quiz. Did you really? I put despair. The answer was dismay.

[John Luke]

Yeah. And so they were similar. I like that idea. And then he.

[Christian]

The diver one was cool. The diver analogy with the other one, what was that?

[John Luke]

Miracles. It was from miracles.

[Christian]

Yeah. The diver that dives down into the abyss, and he's in the kind of the warm. The warm water, then goes down further. Then he's in, you know, the cool water to reach the jewel and then comes up to the depths and then, you know, sticks the jewel above the surface and his lungs are about to explode. And I thought just the imagery of that with Jesus descending from heaven to earth.

[John Luke]

Well, and he quotes this. I want to read it. Because he quoted Philippians 2. Dr. Ward did. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus, who, being in very nature God did not consider equality with God's Son to be grasped, but made himself nothing. There's that descent into humanity, Right. Taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness, being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself, became obedient to death, even death on a cross. There's the utter descent. So not only did he just come here, he came here and suffered, was persecuted, was mocked, was ridiculed, and then was crucified. Therefore. And here's the ascent. God exalted him to the highest place, gave him the name that is above every name, that the name of Jesus, every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth. And so there you see the ascent. So he made the point that that's why we understand. That's why Lewis understood this idea that unless you understand who you are and then understand who you really are, you'll never understand who you can be. And you can only find that in Christ, which I thought was a very powerful analogy.

[Zach]

Yeah, it calls it the bittersweet. It's the bittersweet. It's the essence of the conversion experience, too. That kind of goes along with that, because it's not all roses. He mentions in the Great Divorce, the man that had the lizard lust on his shoulder. And when he saved, his face shone with tears. But it may have been only the liquid love and brightness. One cannot distinguish them in that country that flowed from him. Or in the hideous strength, Jane's soul is remade amidst a kind of splendor or sorrow or both. Or then you got Eustace, when he was transformed into a dragon, can only become a boy again when the painful claws of Aslan kind of penetrate his armor and. And peeling back to bring him back to who he really is. And so you think about some of these really powerful quotes. And one of my favorite quotes from the Narnia books was whenever Aslan, he's revealed as a lion, the great lion. And Susan says, oh, I thought he was a man. Is he quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion. Safe? Mr. Beaver said. Who said anything about safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good. He's a king, I tell you. And I love the way that he writes and paints that picture of who Christ is, because a lot of times in our culture, I've used this in many, many, many sermons to talk about the sovereignty of Christ, that Christ is not a cosmic bellhop. Christ is not simply the character petting the lamb or how the kids around him. Christ is a lion from the tribe of Judah, and he's not safe, but he is good. And so you get that picture of the Aslan has claws, and those claws will enter into you and they will rip your shell off to restore you back to something good. And so that, to me, is one of the most powerful things about Christianity. He mentioned a letter that he wrote to somebody who had became a Christian, and it was like, congratulations and my condolences or something to that effect.

[John Luke]

My commiserate.

[Zach]

Yeah. Which is hilarious. But I thought you. That's such an honest way of portraying conversion that so often what we tell people in the church is because we're trying to sell them, we're like, come to Jesus and everything's going to be better than it's ever been. And, and, and my experience with coming to Christ has been a very painful experience. Almost like that song that the Shane sing, Slay Me. You know what I mean?

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Zach]

It hasn't been roses, but it's been very rewarding because I am becoming who Christ has called me to be. I'm getting to participate in his story, which is the beautiful part of what we're invited into.

[John Luke]

Be sure and sign up Take the course with us for [e-mail] I do think that's true, Zach. And when you were saying that, I was thinking about Mom. When I tell the family story when I'm out on the road, I talk about when she came to Christ. It was totally out of desperation. She was in dissent then. The utter descent was the life she was living with my dad. And her ascent was to come to Christ because she was so alone and abandoned and she had three boys. And she's like, what am I going to do? That's how she came to Christ. And of course, personally on the inside man, it was such a relief because now she realized she wasn't alone. No matter what happened with dad, the problem was her life got way worse because now dad already had a problem with her and was always accusing her of being unfaithful and all this stuff because he was being unfaithful. And now it's like, oh, now you're like Ms. Believer, Ms. Goody Two Shoes and you got your church friends and blah, blah, blah. So I just, you know, me as a kid, just remembering the arguments and the fights, he used her faith now as a cudgel and he just bludgeoned her with it. And so here was the one thing she had found some security in, in Christ, but that was being used against her in her life. And that went on for like a full year before he finally kicked us out. So to your point, Zach, of talking about Christianity doesn't. I mean, sometimes it remains bittersweet. I mean, how many times of people around the world and you go to different countries where you make a decision for Christ, you're bringing a world of hurt on yourself. You have the security of knowing who Christ is and your family and your family. Because now you're going to face, because of some other religious group or whatever, you're going to face the worst persecution you've ever faced. And yet is it worth it?

[Zach]

So you let the V shaped template of down, the way he categorizes Dr. Ward is down, down, further, up, up, further. And that is the Romans 6 passage that Paul talks about when it talks about our coming to Christ in baptism, that we go down like there is an old man that goes down even further and then raised up, and then raised up even further to live that new life through sanctification and ultimately our glorification. When the kingdom of heaven comes back down, I would add another one. Then the kingdom comes down to meet us, which I think Lewis kind of hits on in the Great Divorce, because he paints a really good picture of that. But when you think about, like, his coming to Christ, I love another language. It says, take it on its own terms, is what they encouraged him. And I think Lewis said this. It's the language. When you understand the story of Christ, it's the language that's more adequate than any other. And there's another quote that I looked up that I remembered from Lewis that kind of goes in the same vein of this. And I may have butchered this because I actually quoted it from memory, that I believe in the Son, not because I can see it, but by it or through it, I can see everything else. And so his understanding of Christianity was that it was what illuminated the world for him. So he doesn't believe in it because he can see it. He believes in it because through it, he can see everything else. And to me, that is how he talks about the myth. Did y' all catch that, by the way? When it said he believed and kind of moved from more of the cognitive. He moved from just assessing Christianity as a set of rational beliefs and cognitive beliefs that he would acquire and moved into approaching it more as a myth. I don't know if y' all caught on.

[John Luke]

No. In fact, when John Luke was talking a minute ago about how he wouldn't be popular in today's culture, that was another line I was thinking. If you said Christianity is a myth, you would immediately be rejected as a kook. But the way he described it, I thought, well, no, he's right. Like, you'll say something like, if I said. If I were introducing Christian, I said, there you go. Christian, the man, the myth, the legend. You would take that as a compliment? Because I'm saying this is a God everybody knows about. But that's what he's talking about with Christianity. The idea. It's a myth. It just happens to be true. This happens to be true. People in a real world versus paganism. But the minute you said that, you'd be rejected.

[Zach]

Yeah, well, if you said. If you said, they're giving away free GMC pickup trucks down there at the Chevy place, and somebody said that's a myth, that means it's not true.

[John Luke]

That's right.

[Zach]

But that's not how Lewis is approaching it.

[Al]

Well, there's actually. Because I just heard this from a Christian apologist. He was. He was arguing with this other guy, and the other guy was saying that Christianity is not true because it was taken from all of these other more ancient myths, like the writers of Christianity, like, took all these examples from earlier religions and kind of morphed them all together to be Christian, to be Jesus and debate Christianity. And CSUs actually believe, like specifically believes that is the case that Christ represents and fulfills earlier myths, but that we have the earlier myths because that was God working to get us to Christianity. That's a good point, which is you can believe that or not believe that. But specifically, C.S. lewis thought that earlier myths did point to their point to Christ and was very similar to Christ because that's how God was working. So he kind of took a different approach on it. I just heard another well known Christian apologist who I respect, I listen to a lot of his stuff, disagree with that point.

[John Luke]

Well, the thing about it is John Luke, that's not so crazy because the whole Old Testament is full of symbolism pointing to Jesus, it's not really him. But then once it happened, everybody says, oh yeah, that's why you had the scapegoat. Oh yeah, that's why you had the, the last.

[Zach]

I think it's a good point because even like with the temple stuff, and when we had Dr. Jackson on the podcast and he had mentioned on the podcast that there were earlier iterations of the temple that precede the tabernacle that was constructed. This was on our Exodus study that preceded Moses building the tabernacle. And he's like, they all had similar structure. And that perhaps. And by the way, if you want to take the course with us, sign up. You can take the course [e-mail] and you can go back and listen to the Exodus 1 and the one we're in now, which is CS Lewis. But when Dr. Jackson was talking about these other temples that preceded the one that was built by or instructed by Moses and then the one built by Solomon as well, there were similarities. And that it's very likely people could say, well, did they just put borrowing from old other temple structures? But the point that I've read from Dr. Beal in his book on the temple is that all of these temples, the ones that preceded the tabernacle and the temple that Solomon built, they were all predicated on, guess what, the Garden of Eden, the original temple. So what you actually see in the early myths and the early temple structures, in the early stories, that they're all reflected, they all came from somewhere and they all have a common origin. And that common origin is the Genesis story. And so I think this certainly can be true of these myths. But the way he distinguishes it, he says a myth doesn't mean false. It's historical, but it is a story and it's a real story. And so he says, CS Lewis came to believe in the myth as the true myth. This is the true one. This is the one that's true.

[John Luke]

Real people, real events. Exactly.

[Christian]

I have a really quick question. I know we're almost. But I got this. I'm going to preface. I got this question right on the quiz, simply because I put all the above, because most of the time that's probably your best bet.

[John Luke]

But I learned a lot about Christmas.

[Christian]

One of the answers was, and this confused me, but this was Dr. Ward talking about something that C.S. lewis was saying, that we must sometimes be deceived in order to pursue what is truly good. Which is a great quote, but. And I know we're almost out of time, but what does he necessarily. Like, what does he say?

[John Luke]

Well, that's the quick answer was what he had said before of that. The idea is, unless you're uncomfortable. In other words, unless something happens to change your worldview, which is how he put that deceit, you'll never seek anything more. In other words, you'll just continue on the path you've always been. I mean, that's what I took that to mean in that question, because I wasn't sure either. Exactly. But then I took that. That's that idea about if I'm not dismayed and where I am without God. In other words, if something doesn't.

[Christian]

There has to be something to propel you to ask.

[John Luke]

Exactly. So if I'm not deceived in the sense that if I'm not willing to be tricked, or whatever word you want to use. It's the parables.

[Christian]

It's why Jesus taught in parables, seek and you will find. Knock on the door, be heaven. That makes sense, because I was really confused at what he was talking about.

[John Luke]

And there's several of those words that are like that. So we're out of time. Man, what a great study this is turning out to be. I'm loving it. I hope you guys are taking it along with us. It's free. Take it with us. Read the books. You're going to be exposed to some great stuff with CS Lewis. We'll see you next time on Hillsdale Unashamed.

[Christian]

And next time you see us, Al's teeth will be whiter.

[John Luke]

Whiter.

[Christian]

There they are.

[Zach]

Yeah, let's get a before and after pic. We'll put that in the next thumbnail.

[Christian]

Yeah, that'll be the thumbnail picture.

[John Luke]

And then we'll put size in there.

[Zach]

Bye, guys. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.