Ep 1260 | Jase, Missy & Kasey Van Norman Have a Heavy Conversation About Cheating, Shame & True Healing

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

Unashamed with the Robertson Family – Episode 1260
Guests: Jase & Missy Robertson, Kasey Van Norman
Date: February 2, 2026
Main Theme: Healing from infidelity, confronting shame, and the redemptive journey of faith

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and candid episode, the Robertson family (Jase, Missy, Al, and Zach) are joined by their close friend, counselor, and author Kasey Van Norman. Together, they explore sensitive and transformative topics including marital struggles, infidelity, shame, forgiveness, and the genuine process of healing through God’s grace. Kasey shares her deeply personal story of brokenness and recovery, offering both hope and practical wisdom to those struggling with their own burdens.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Being Real Behind the Scenes

• The “Church Face” Dilemma – The group discusses how many Christian families struggle behind closed doors but put on a happy front on Sundays.
  • Jase: “The way our Sunday morning worship works in America… you’re at your house… everybody’s testy… then as soon as you walk in, people are like, ‘Hey, how are you?’” [01:18]
• Practical Parenting Shifts – Missy reflects on how their approach to raising children has shifted, especially now as they help raise a younger child, “Little Man," in a different season of life. [05:38–06:44]

2. Longstanding Friendships & Shared Faith

• Jase and Missy introduce their friendship with Kasey, formed on a Compassion International trip years ago, and emphasize intentional connection over the years.
  • Missy: “Even though our pasts are completely the opposite, we are a lot alike in the way that we think about other people and the way that we love the Lord.” [19:38]
• Kasey recounts meeting Justin (“the governor”), sharing playful family stories that ground the episode in relatable, homespun humor. [15:26–18:27]

3. Transparency, Therapy, and Church Stigma

• Kasey addresses the stigma of therapy within Christian circles, noting generational differences and the tendency to overuse therapeutic buzzwords in modern culture.
  • Kasey: “Therapy… can still feel like a sign of weakness… boundaries, trauma—they’ve overexaggerated and overplayed and the words have lost meaning.” [22:41–24:00]

4. Kasey’s Story of Brokenness and Redemption

• Kasey courageously unpacks her experience as a believer who sinned, exploring the complexities of loving God while feeling unloved and unwanted.
  • Kasey: “I was saved as saved could be… but I did not believe that he loved me back. And that is a different trajectory of living your life as a Christian. That is free person and captive.” [31:40]
• She stresses the distinction between making mistakes out of ignorance versus conscious rebellion:
  • “I’m gonna write this from, I knew exactly what I was doing.” [31:29]
• The group discusses how underlying lies from childhood (neglect, alcoholism, absence of a father’s love) can drive destructive adult decisions, particularly searching for love in the wrong places.

5. Radical Forgiveness in Marriage

• Jase and Missy highlight the significance of forgiveness, and Kasey shares the moment her husband, Justin, responded to her confession of infidelity not with anger, but with grace:
  • Justin (as quoted by Kasey): “I don’t know how to not love you.” [36:27]
• This act became a catalyst for deep healing and restoration in their marriage and faith journey, mirroring God’s own love.

6. Confession, Shame, and Authenticity in the Church

• The Robertsons and Kasey underscore the power of honest confession in Christian life, challenging the fear that ‘confessing your sins means crucifixion’ rather than healing ([26:31]).
• Kasey describes reaching her lowest point—not just being caught, but stepping into complete vulnerability and honesty, which led to true freedom:
  • “I promise you, I walked in a lot of shame and condemnation. I got all the punishment…” [47:20]
  • “I felt more alive and more free and more loved than I have ever felt in my life. And that was my moment.” [50:31]

7. Dealing with Critics & Social Media

• Kasey and Missy talk about the online hate that can resurface old wounds, but how this has little effect compared to the freedom found in Christ:
  • “There are some people who are being mean… I think it’d be so fun. Going viral is on my bucket list… Not this way.” [44:22]

8. Transformation & Service – Madewell House

• Kasey describes founding Madewell House, a holistic healing space in Bryan, Texas, inspired by her own need for belonging and integrated care—a space to be fully yourself while moving toward Christ-centered healing.
  • Kasey: “What if a place existed where you can get healing resources… under one roof… not in a preachy environment, but a safe, warm, biblically-based environment… Wherever you are, you can show up.” [51:39–53:12]
• The ministry has grown rapidly, now serving over 3,500 people a month with counseling and practical resources. [54:00]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Wearing Masks at Church ([01:18]):
  • Jase: “You’re going to worship the Lord God Almighty, but everybody’s testy… and then as soon as you get out of the car and walk in, people are like, ‘Hey, how are you?’”
• On the Power of Radical Acceptance ([36:27]):
  • Kasey (on her husband): “I don’t know how to not love you.”
• On Freedom in Confession ([50:31]):
  • Kasey: “I feel more alive and more free and more loved than I have ever felt in my life.”
• On Authenticity ([27:24]):
  • Kasey: “Everything you do is transparent and honest… How can we reach others for Christ by just being honest about what we’ve gone through?”
• On Judgment and Grace ([45:36]):
  • Jase: “Everybody’s with the rocks. And here comes Jesus with a strange take… you without sin, throw the first stone…”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–06:24 – Lighthearted stories about family, church-going stress, and parenting shifts
• 09:11–18:27 – Introduction of Kasey Van Norman and family friendship history
• 22:41–24:00 – Kasey on the stigma of therapy in Christian circles
• 27:24–32:29 – Kasey shares her faith background and the core lie she battled
• 36:27–37:57 – The transformative moment of grace from her husband after confessing infidelity
• 41:46–50:31 – Honest reflection on shame, confession, and public criticism
• 51:39–54:00 – Madewell House origin and mission

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Tone & Style

The episode is rich with down-home humor (“You’re welcome!” – Jase, [54:41]), genuine vulnerability, and spiritual wisdom. The Robertsons’ easy banter and Kasey’s heartfelt honesty come together to create an atmosphere of unconditional acceptance—with repeated affirmations of God’s redeeming love and the necessity for transparent community.

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Conclusion

This episode of Unashamed is a profound testimony to the possibility of healing and renewal after deep personal and relational brokenness. Through laughter, tears, practical examples, and scriptural grounding, listeners are encouraged to let go of shame, bring struggles into the light, and trust in the overwhelming grace of God.

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Transcript

[A]

I am unashamed.

[B]

What about you?

[C]

Why are we.

[B]

We're not disputing.

[D]

We always. You came in.

[A]

I like that. Because people. Are we rolling?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[D]

Welcome down the show. No.

[A]

Look out. This should be named. I have the title. Because whoever's doing these titles, we need to talk.

[D]

Yeah. So I have one. Okay.

[A]

This is Unashamed After Dark. This is the first podcast we've ever done at Twilight.

[C]

It is.

[A]

That is true. Hey, I feel like we should cue some music.

[D]

We're doing this very late in the day, so we got a guest coming on a little bit later, so we're just kind of setting them up.

[A]

And it's not just a guest. These are good friends of ours.

[B]

They changed our lives.

[D]

They did. That's good.

[A]

They've. They've made our lives better, which is true.

[D]

So you were talking as we came in, Jace, about that. Married couples should have more public disputes because people act prim and proper in the public eye, but then fight. You think? You say they fight more behind the scenes.

[A]

Here's what I think happens.

[D]

I can't wait to hear that.

[A]

The way our Sunday morning worship works in America. Here's the saying, the husband, he's like, I can't find my shoes. And like, well, you left them wherever. And you know, all this is going on. You're at your house, you're going to worship the Lord God Almighty, but everybody's testy. And so then you get in the car, you got the kids hollering, hey, shut up back there. You want to spank it? I tell you, well, what are we going to eat after? I don't know. Why do I have to make all the decisions? And then as soon as you get out of that door and walk in, people are like, hey, how are you?

[C]

Great.

[A]

Wondrous. I'm having the time of my life.

[D]

That is good. All the time.

[B]

I have a story about that because. And hi, I'm back.

[D]

Welcome back, missy. You're such a part of the table now that we don't even feel like we have to introduce you anymore.

[B]

So growing up, when we were raising our kids, those stories when they would talk about that from the pulpit, about how people were fighting every Sunday morning, and now you're here at church and everyone's getting along and putting on their face. We never rode together because I was there an hour, hour and a half early for worship practice. So for 25 years, we never rode together. He never saw me, which I found.

[D]

To be one of the best secrets of our Marriage.

[A]

Guess what, cuz?

[D]

See, when the People Two cars changed my marriage, I need to write that book.

[A]

When the preacher's up there pounding, I was like, not me.

[B]

Not today.

[A]

I was listening to Collective Soul Shine.

[B]

So I have.

[C]

I have a little.

[B]

I have a little story, actually, about that. So. A few weeks ago, Jace was asked to speak at our local Celebrate Recovery. And I was asked to be on the worship team that morning.

[D]

Oh, I didn't.

[B]

I mean, I'm sorry. That evening on the worship.

[A]

I didn't know that that was Celebrate Recovery.

[D]

When Jace told the story about his being. He never mentioned you being on the praise team, which I find. Did you know I was on the first. For one year, the first praise band team at wfr because I wanted them to have pastoral support. And, you know, I was one of the pastors at that time, so.

[A]

But you can't sing.

[D]

I know that was the downside to it, but. But luckily nobody else could either.

[B]

Is that actually true? I need to fact check that it's true. But anyway.

[D]

That I can't sing or that I was on the team?

[A]

Did you just sing?

[D]

No.

[B]

I know you can sing.

[A]

Oh, Hal. You know, Hal, this is reminding me of that Barney Griffith and the. You know, he wanted Barney Griffith. Whatever.

[B]

Jamie.

[A]

Barney 5.

[D]

That's what. And that's what I did when I sang James. I just. They kept getting me lower and lower. And then I realized they never had my mic on. So it never.

[A]

But the musical. Musical director, every time something would be said, he'd say, but Andy, he can't sing. That's why I said that.

[D]

So just so, you know, to fit in the context. Keith Powell was our leader.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[D]

So there you go. Remember, this is 20 years ago. We were just trying to help people off of drugs, and we didn't want.

[B]

To hurt Celebrate Recovery.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Friday night on the Friday. I gotcha.

[D]

Not. Not at that bit.

[B]

Oh, yeah. No. A lot lacks on Friday night.

[D]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[B]

I gotcha.

[D]

Now do you understand the content right.

[A]

To the story, babe.

[B]

Okay, so actually I was there also while Jace was speaking that night. And we had Little man with us. And so we. Afterward, of course, he was great. We had a bag full of stuff for him to do. He was great. That place was rocking. They are fantastic. They were worshiping it. It was amazing. I knew that in my blood ever, like, shot into my veins.

[D]

Because these folks are excited that they have found Christ. Yes.

[B]

And so it was refreshing. It was great. Jace did a wonderful job Speaking fantastically. Wonderful job.

[D]

This is where he did the Tom Petty song.

[B]

No, he talked about it.

[A]

Oh, yeah, he played it.

[B]

He played it.

[A]

But then they took over the song. Yeah, it was like they sang and.

[D]

They took over your lesson.

[A]

Yeah, they sang louder at the time. Petty, don't back down. Than we did in the actual way. Remember, they're right out of the way. I lost control of the audience. Go ahead.

[B]

So after it was over, they helped us out. We had Little man, of course, and so they helped us out. We were in two different vehicles because I got there early to practice. So I put Little man in the car seat, and Jase takes off. So we start going, and Little man says to me, where's J Rock? And I said, he's in his truck.

[C]

What?

[B]

Where? Where's his truck? I said, it's up ahead. He already left. Well, why is it jaywalk in the car? Not got to realizing Little man does not know the life that our children had. So our children either rode with me most of the time, sometimes with Jase when they were older, but Little man, we are always together. He rides with us everywhere we go. And so for him to realize that there's only one of us in the car and one of us is in a different truck going somewhere else, he was just kind of like, I don't understand what's happening right here. So it was very different for us. I pointed that out when I got home to Jay. So I thought, this is crazy. We're the same people. But now we're raising or helping to raise a child in a completely different environment, which says something in our same.

[D]

House, right, about parenting. A lot of times later in life, for whatever reason, maybe you have a child that's younger than the rest. But when Jep describes his relationship with mom and dad, especially dad, it's completely different from my experience. Like, he'll talk about this man he knows. That's very different from the man that I grew up with.

[A]

How he needed the hard years.

[B]

Yeah, Jeff got off light.

[D]

He did.

[A]

He could have used a little dose.

[D]

Of what I got.

[A]

He said, I think I was a little too soft on old Jeffy.

[D]

But in Dad's defense, there were two prodigals, and it was the oldest and the youngest. So it was me and Jep, and we had two totally different experiences. And I think we probably had a prodigal experience for two totally different reasons, but we both did, which is kind of ironic as it worked out, but you're right. So if you had actually had a child super late in life. After Mia, this would have been the experience for all Right, so we've talked enough. It's time to bring our guest on, because I'm super excited about that. So we're going to take a break. When we come back, Missy and Jace will introduce our guest today. So Lisa and I have started back on the road. Most of our events are centered around pro life. That's why it's so important to us on this podcast, because it impacts us. And here's a story about a woman named Evie. She never imagined she would become pregnant. Doctors told her it wasn't possible. So when she found out she was expecting, fear took over, and her first pregnancy ended in abortion. It was a decision that left her carrying a grief no one had prepared her for. Later, Evie reached out for help, and she reached out to a preborn network clinic. And there, she didn't find judgment. She found compassion, truth, and healing. For the first time in a long time, Evie finally felt hope. When she became pregnant again, everything was different. She returned to the clinic excited. And when she saw her baby on ultrasound, when she heard that tiny heartbeat for the first time, it confirmed what she already knew in her heart. Today, Evie's daughter is alive. Her heart beats freely outside the womb because an ultrasound was there at exactly the right moment. One ultrasound is just $28. All gifts are tax deductible, and 100% of your donation goes directly to saving babies. So we're asking you to join us. To donate securely, dial £250. Say the keyword baby. That's £250, baby. Or go to preborn.comunashamed. that's preborn.comunashamed. so welcome back to Unashamed. We have our guest. Missy, you want to introduce our guest?

[B]

Yes. I'm so excited. Okay. So Casey Van Norman. She's kind of a big deal, and she's amazing and one of my favorite people on planet Earth, actually.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

How long have y' all actually been friends, babe?

[B]

20. 15. 15? Yeah, it was 15. Okay. We went on a speaker trip with Compassion. Nicaragua.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Before we met Karina, we were two hours from Karina's house and didn't know it.

[C]

And what I love about our friendship is we have been pretty intentional at least once every year to see each other. You missed last year, and I missed last year.

[B]

That's okay. You're forgiven.

[C]

But we made it. We made it up. This year. We sit in the same spot. Cause the boys go duck hunting. My husband and my son. It's like, they cannot wait for the weekend. Once a year, they get to go duck hunting with Jason. My son's 17 and all in. Jason's got them all into the ducks we got.

[D]

It gets in your blood.

[C]

Well, somebody needed to warn me. I mean, I watched Jason Missy a little bit, but for Christmas, three huge boxes show up, and I'm like, what is this? This is his Christmas present. That's all he asked for, nothing else. He unwraps one. It's a bunch of ducks.

[B]

They're called decoys.

[D]

Are we shipping dead ducks? Yeah.

[C]

He's so excited.

[A]

That would have been crazy if a bunch of ducks blown out.

[C]

I don't know. All I see are a bunch of ducks in my house now Jace everywhere, tripping over them.

[D]

So you wonder if decoys weren't. They weren't on Casey. I mean, she thought they were ducks.

[C]

Look at all those ducks.

[A]

Boy, it'd be hard to tenderize these.

[C]

They're so pretty, too.

[A]

They're hard to sign.

[C]

Decoys are so pretty. I'm like, how are you shooting these? They're so pretty. The green heads. Who's got the green head?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What duck has the green head with them?

[A]

That's a mallard.

[C]

That's a mallard.

[A]

And look, it was your son's goal to shoot a mallard. We went this morning. There we are.

[D]

I was going to ask about the hunt.

[A]

Did you go too? No. I loved her response last night. Missy said, are you going too, Casey? And she went, nah. Which is what Missy.

[C]

I want to sit in pajamas with Missy for hours on end.

[D]

That's what y' all did.

[C]

And that is exactly. They left us this morning. We were in our pajamas on the couch. They walked in at noon. They said, what have y' all been doing? We've been doing this right here.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We have a year to download the weekend.

[D]

So you're not into the idea of wearing four layers of clothes, putting face paint all over your face?

[C]

I am in menopause. No one in their right mind puts on four layers of clothes, let me tell you.

[B]

Well, you wouldn't today.

[D]

It's hot today. But normally.

[A]

Well, funny conversation. Last night, we were up before I tell you about the duck hut, she. She asked me something about if I had ever done a sauna. And I didn't know what that was. I. I had to Google it mid conversation, which I did, by the way.

[D]

This is what I was on the podcast.

[A]

And look, when I looked at these images, I thought they took those old phone booths and made Use of them because it looked like an old phone. You remember when you had to do pay a quarter or a dime, whatever.

[B]

What I said was, babe, you've seen. You've seen shows where men come in with the towels wrapped around their waist and they sit down and they're like, they're sweating. And then what did you say?

[A]

Can I say this?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I said I don't go into sweaty rooms with naked men for any reason. Now look, if you want to.

[D]

America, have you ever been to a Turkish prison?

[B]

No.

[A]

If you want to, it's fine. It's just not. It's not in my DNA.

[C]

Missy, you're not helping me with this image right now. Saunas have. You know, they're. They're better now.

[B]

It's not full. No Botox and no sauna.

[A]

What I decided. And then I gave them a withering barrage of how you sweat in the wilderness, which I did today. I walked two miles. We had knocked down a couple of birds, which shows you how we had. We had a moment today. And look, we're.

[D]

Because there was low expectation on the.

[A]

Can't be any lower. We have no water and we have no ducks. Those are two essential things you need for duck hunting. I know you don't know much about it. You don't have any water. You need ducks. You're like. This is almost like hunting ducks in the Chick Fil a parking lot. You're luck. Hey, come over here, Doug. So we go down there. It's 70 something degrees this morning. The fog was so thick, I barely made it down there. I mean, it was not visible. We get down there and I thought she mentioned this sauna because sweat was.

[D]

Pouring conditions and they're very.

[A]

You know how women look when they cry and they have that stuff on their eyes? What is that called?

[D]

Mascara.

[A]

Mascara.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

I had my face pants. Look, and it was dripping today. It looked like I was crying because I was sweating so much. And guess what?

[C]

I.

[A]

The Lord said, here you go, Jace. The Van Normans are in town. This young man has found his love for duck hunting. That you named him Lake Awesome.

[C]

Like a body of water. Yes.

[A]

And we went out there and killed. Double digit numbers. Four mallards. Young man, he's a pretty good shot.

[C]

If you didn't know they have greenheads.

[D]

Oh, I know greenheads.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And we took pictures. We had the green heads. We're all acting like. I mean, it was. It was.

[D]

Well, he had told me that he had been saving this for you guys. And there was only 20 ducks.

[A]

On the whole property. And guess what?

[D]

They killed most of us.

[A]

We only saw 20. We wiped out.

[B]

There was 20 ducks. We.

[A]

We wiped out that whole colony. But guess what? There are millions of ducks. But that little pocket. They're no longer with us.

[D]

We call that the Van Norman pocket.

[A]

The fact that they wound up where we were tells you how confused they were and how lost they were. And they were just trying to find a place of no regrets. And we provided that for them today.

[B]

There's another reason why we don't have a sauna. And it's a reason why what I told you one year and you never let me forget. It's because how do I sweat ugly. I don't sweat pretty. I don't listen. Yes. But I'll never.

[C]

I'll forget it.

[D]

I don't sweat pretty. The way she said it, it just has burned into my.

[A]

We're just revealing it, all this. This unashamed.

[D]

By the way, Casey is a counselor. She brings this out in people.

[A]

That's the deal.

[C]

The most honest version. Yes.

[A]

So we invited you here because you do a wonderful ministry. Y' all took over town. You're married. Look, and I have to confess this. I've never confessed this. When you first introduced your husband, you said, and here's the governor. And I thought, this guy's the governor of Texas. I thought he was much older.

[D]

So.

[A]

Then I just assumed for years that he was some sort of politician at some point of his life, but it's not true. So do you want to tell us why you call him the governor?

[C]

Well, that was his college nickname. Because he never met a stranger. He never met a stranger. He's as just cowboy. Texas cowboy as they come. But our very first date. All right. The roads are icy. It's February. We're not supposed to be out. But of course, Justin Van Norman called, and I said yes, because he's the governor.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You gotta put that together.

[C]

The governor.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

You have to say it like that.

[D]

Oh, I got it. I got it. Okay.

[C]

So I said yes. We go to a place called Rita's. It's not there anymore in Nacogdoches. We're from East Texas, so you know the Pineapple, which is almost like, really not far.

[D]

Louisiana. Yeah, really is.

[C]

We're right on the line. And Nacogdoches grew up, and we go to Rita's and we have a great conversation. We're just catching up. And of course, we do the whole thing with each other where, you know, we're not gonna really date. We're not interested in dating. So let's just make the terms very clear. We're not gonna have a Relations. Yeah, right. Like, two months later where I love you, but I, you know, expect that he's gonna drop me off and maybe try to sneak a kiss or something like that. So he drops me off, and he's got his. He is so cute. I mean, just the cutest thing. His cowboy boots. His Wrangler starched to a T. And you know, the Wranglers, when you take them off, you can't move them.

[A]

They're so starch.

[C]

His polo shirt from. Probably still wearing it from the seventh grade, you know, plaid shirt. And he drops me off, and he walks me up to the front door, and literally, like, doesn't touch me at all and just walks me straight up. And he goes, well, thank you, ma'.

[D]

Am.

[C]

Can't you.

[D]

Yeah. Like, you had just served him a Dairy Queen, right?

[C]

I am stunned. I am like. I mean, we're grown adults. We're in our 20s here, and I am, like, looking at this guy, like, did he just. Thank you, man. At the end of a date. So he turns around and starts to walk away, and I go, well, I guess I expected a hug or something. And he looked turned around, and he goes, don't.

[D]

Homer Simpson.

[C]

It was the. I was. I was done. I was totally his. It was the most.

[D]

That's it.

[C]

Most endearing moment, truly.

[D]

That's when you know you got it, Justin. That's where you know you got it.

[C]

You got to go. Don't.

[A]

And then, of course, Justin, you need to write a book.

[D]

He's in our studio, and Lake is here, too.

[C]

He needs to write a book.

[B]

Well, Casey and I became, like. I don't even know how to describe it. Our guards completely came down with each other, and we were just able to connect immediately. And, you know, that's kind of rare to do that, especially when you're. I mean, famous, I guess. You know, we were in the middle of Duck Dynasty, and my guard is always up by this point, by 2015, but it just came down with her, with you. And I realized we have the same mindset. We're a lot alike. Even though our pasts are completely the opposite. We are a lot alike in the way that we think about other people and the way that we love the Lord. And so I. She asked me she was writing a book. She is a talented and accomplished speaker and writer. So this is not just some rando. I'm telling you, she is very accomplished. She Spoke for Extraordinary Women conferences for years and is amazing. She's amazing. So I really relied on her a lot for support in my life, for things that we were going through, even with the fame and we have talked about on here. When we had the weekend of counseling, when we did the eight weeks of counseling in a day and a half.

[D]

Yep.

[B]

Voila.

[D]

Yeah. With our family. This was your guide.

[B]

Casey did it. And so she and her. With her godly wisdom and ultimate knowledge of how to transform problems in a family to glorify the Lord and get them back on track and glorify the Lord. She did that in a day and a half with our family and set us on a brand new trajectory in our family. And I have her to thank. And so she's amazing. I can say that, you know, just because of what you did. Hands on. And so I would like, I would love for you to be able to share a little bit about your past and your story because your book, Nothing Wasted. I have given all of my copies away once and you resupplied me and I gave them all away again. The last one was for Mia. Cause she's on a trip this weekend and she took it because she adores you.

[C]

Well, Mia has my heart. She has my heart. And she's so awesome too. She reaches out and texts and we still talk and she checks on me.

[D]

So I don't know about you, but New Year's usually bring in the. The idea of wanting new challenges in your life. And certainly for me, last year's New Year brought me into the idea that I needed to lose some weight. And that's not always easy when you get my age, 60 years old back then. I've tried all the different diets. Keto, Paleo, Weight Watchers, intermittent fasting. I went through the same drill and always gained the weight back. And usually I just said I didn't have the right willpower or the right discipline, but the truth is, it was never really about willpower to begin with. There's only one thing that determines whether your body burns fat or stores it. And if you don't fix that, your diet is going to fail. It's about metabolism. At PhD weight loss, they've identified that and they build a plan that works with your body and not against it. And I'm living proof. Because here's a picture of me at the beginning of 2025. Here I am now, you see, I've lost 80 pounds. Feeling great. I'm off of most of my meds. I don't use my CPAP anymore. Much more active, able to do a lot. So if you call now, they'll give you two free weeks in the program and they pay for your food so you can finally see real results without more trial and error. If you're done with yo yo dieting and want clarity, call PhD weight loss now and mention Al. No more guessing, just answers. Call 864-644-1900 and say Al. That's 864-644-1900 or visit myphdweightloss.com.

[C]

You know, you guys made it so easy. And Al, I told them, you know, we don't have to talk about the therapy thing. This is, this can be a very, this is private. And I know therapy has a stigma sometimes in the church. And I think, you know, I grew up in the 80s and this was not something my grandparents did. They didn't talk about their problems. And it really was a sign of weakness and really true psychotherapy. I'm a psychotherapist, clinical psychotherapist that didn't really come on the scene until the 80s and 90s. And now we have PET scans that are proving more of the neuroscience and the brain development of a child and what they're observing. And so it's. But it's still, for some people, you know, in their 40s and 50s, this is still not something that's widely talked about, especially if you didn't grow up in a home that felt emotionally safe. And I'm not using, I don't like a lot of the cliche words. And I think that's what Missy and I, I bonded on originally as we, you know, TikTok and, you know, everything viral has taken all of these words like therapy and safe and boundaries and trauma and they've over exaggerated and overplayed and the words have lost meaning.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that really breaks my heart because we're overusing them and we're not using them in the right way. And so now I think, you know, anyway, all that to say I just appreciate that you guys are willing to be vulnerable and open about that and that you reached out to me. It was, I was begging you, if you remember. Well, I just remember being super intimidated because to go back to when we first met on the compassion trip in Nicaragua, we were on a people mover. We had not spoken two words to each other. And your schedule's pretty packed and they're like showing you they want you to be an ambassador. And they do an incredible job. Compassionate. They do an incredible job. They Equip the community with the resources to serve. You know, they're not doing toxic charity. They're doing charity so well by equipping the people in the town to serve their people. But we're really just. Sometimes it gets awkward because you're, like, observing people that live a whole nother life than you do. And I'm in a people mover with Missy Robertson behind me. And this is in the height of Duck Dynasty, you know, the height of the show. I mean, y' all are in the height of fame. And I have just written a book, and it's come out, but as far as that goes, I'm a nobody. You know, I'm like, what am I even doing? And there were some other people there, writers, speakers, comedians, and they're just, you know, getting people with some sort of influence that could advocate for. Anyway, Missy's behind me in the van, and Justin is next to me. And I remember being like, play it cool, dude.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[C]

Play it cool. Missy Robertson is right behind you. And he's like, did he turn around.

[D]

And give her a thank you, man?

[C]

Oh, that's just about. He totally embarrassed me. He was like, well, hi there, you know.

[A]

Well, and to give Justin. I mean, because when I first met him, it looked like he had just come off a bull, you know, riding a bull. But then we started talking. I'm like, man, this guy's got a kind of a soft spirit to him, you know, and he's kind. And I.

[B]

Well, you get to know Justin in her book, Nothing Wasted. Not that I'm going to push that book or anything, but I am, because Nothing Wasted.

[D]

God uses the stuff you wouldn't. I love the tagline.

[A]

Well, it made me think of the verse when you were talking about that people don't. Because we. Before you came on, in our first segment, we were talking about how people fuss, fight and argue and probably say four letter words on the way to the church building. And then people say, how are you doing?

[D]

Great.

[A]

Everything's fine. The Lord is good, you know, what a day. But you read verses in First John where it says, confess your sins and you will be healed. But most people, I think now our family was different. Everything was transparent, out in the open. I heard about the birds and bees at about 8 years old, and I was like, wow, I didn't know this was going on here. But I think most people think, confess your sins and you will be crucified. And so it is hard for people to open up. But I thought about the reason y' all met and you said the same mindset. Well, you both have the Holy Spirit of God and I just think that draws people and the Holy Spirit is referred to as a counselor. And so, yes, we have the Holy Spirit, but also a lot of good counseling comes from other spirit filled people that are put in your life.

[C]

Well, most people are just scared of what they don't know yet. And we don't wanna change. And I think that's where we bonded is. You guys have always been incredibly authentic. It's why people watch you and wanna be a part of what you're doing. Everything you do is transparent and honest. And, you know, that is where we. I was telling you, you're asking me these questions on the bus and, you know, there's nothing. I mean, I was thinking too, like, we're driving in these dirt roads, bouncing up and down, and we're watching women who are eight months pregnant carry five gallons of water on their shoulders. So it's like all the fame is gone, all the glitz and glamour doesn't matter anymore. This is actually what matters. This is humanity. And so all that was stripped away for us really quickly, which I feel like is a gift for our friendship. And we were really forced into just being sisters in Christ. And you started asking me my life. I started asking, you know, and it just was Missy and Casey bonding over, I think, our value of Holy Spirit speaking to us and authenticity. How can we reach others for Christ by just being honest about what we've gone through. So that is where I'm at now. I haven't always been there. I've had a lot of deception in my life. But what I told Missy early on is I wanted to be a spokesperson and write this book around. I am a believer. I am a true blue going to heaven when I die. There is not a time in my life that I don't remember Jesus coming after me. Truly. I was born in the church nursery and I had the very kind of traditional cliche Baptist upbringing in East Texas, the Bible Belt of the world. But I remember him pursuing me. I could not get away from him. And I had a very personal salvation experience with him alone at 9 years old. I just. I knew that he loved me, but my family was really hard. Yeah. What I observed was a lot of neglect, abandonment, and a lot of alcoholism. And as a teenage girl, man, you are so desperate for a father's love, protection, acceptance. And you're gonna go look for that when you don't have it in something. For me, it was men and you know, my 17 year old son is here right now and he knows all of this. And I, I am raising him to think about what a woman is made to need and how God has knit her to be in a man's side, to yes, support him, help him speak into that, but to be under his wing and cared for and protected and when, when a woman doesn't have that, it is in her eternal DNA to look for it. And so, you know, hopefully guiding him with my mistakes. And I say mistakes with a lot of grace now in a sense of. I also believe in a sovereign God who.

[B]

Redeeming.

[C]

Yes, yes. So much redemption of my life story, but man, I was just, I was such a rebel. I was so rebellious, looking for love in all the wrong places, and lived that very fake life of a Christian, saying all the right things, showing up to church, checking all the boxes. My story, though, I just want it to be clear, is I was a believer and in sin. And that's a part of that book. Nothing wasted. I wrote that with a publisher going, y' all need to know what you're getting into here. I'm not gonna write this. I'm not gonna write this from, I didn't know. The Lord thought I did, but didn't. And I made all these mistakes and then something big happens and brings me back. No, I'm gonna write this from, I knew exactly what I was doing.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And I did. I was saved as saved could be. I loved God with all my heart and soul, but I did not believe that he loved me back.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And that is a different trajectory of living your life as a Christian. That is free person and captive. So you can be a Christian all day long and be a captive to the lie, to the sin, and you can put different pants on the sin, and it's still sin, you know, so whether I'm sleeping with a guy or whether I'm drinking or whether I'm lying or whatever, you know, I'm just changing the pants, you know, but the lie was the same. God, I don't believe you. At the end of the day, really love me.

[B]

I think it could speak for a lot of people like that who've had rough childhoods. I know people who still like to this day are wanting to be loved so much that their outward actions are just crying out for it. And that's what, I guess what you were doing, what you've confessed to in that book, it's not a new book, so it's not like this is a book tour at All.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You wrote a lot of books, but that one.

[B]

This is the one that. Well, you asked me, when it was a man manuscript, to read it, and it was such an honor, and I did. So I felt I know every aspect of it. I think I read it multiple times, and I've given so many away. But that's where you learn to know about what true forgiveness is, too, with your husband.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

And I have to tell this really funny story. So we were nine months in Austin, living in Austin with Mia and going to school back and forth. And Casey drives over from College Station, Brian. College Station area, and kind of sits in with my women's group. Had started a women's Bible study at our house. And she brings her books and all that and passing them out. And anyway, you go home that night. You leave that night and go home. And so Jessica, you know, Jessica and Jep are right around the corner at the time, and so Jessica takes hers home. The next morning, I walk in, I don't know, sometime a day walk in, and Jep is sitting there with his feet on the coffee table halfway through the book, and he looked up and he went, this woman's awesome.

[D]

I'm like, jessica, such a joke.

[B]

Jessica's not even reading it. Deb is reading it, you know, and he was like. And the governor is like. And by this time, I'm like, the governor? Who's the governor?

[D]

Same problem.

[B]

Yeah. So I was like, oh, I know him by Justin, but okay, I know she calls him the governor in the book. He was like. I said, oh, yeah, he's amazing. And. And Jeff went, can I meet them? It was like a little child. I said, I think I can work that out, Jeff.

[C]

And you know Jeff called Justin. Yes, he did. I love Jep's heart in that moment. He called Justin and just said, thank you. Thank you for what? The grace and the forgiveness that you show Casey, it's teaching me. It's beautiful. And that was really special.

[D]

Well, I only knew about you through your relationship with Missy. And I'd met you guys once somewhere in a green room or someplace. We met when y' all were visiting them, but I knew nothing else. And so just yesterday, when you don't know somebody. Of course now in modern times, you Google them.

[B]

Yep.

[D]

And so that's what I did, just to get some things about some of the stuff you'd done. And I start. You did a. You did a piece with CBN at some point. I don't know when it was back when you did a book, probably. And I was reading the piece, and it was very good. And I'm reading it, and I'm like, the more I read it, the more I'm like, well, this is man, Lisa, I'm like, your story and our story are so similar, and we came to so many of the same conclusions about what God does out of brokenness and what he does out of grace. It was incredible. And so, I mean, I really had an affinity for you guys just reading the story before we ever had this opportunity. Yeah. And now I can't wait to read the book. But I wanted to know, like, how that. How do you speak to that, to folks? Because you're obviously a professional and doing what you do to help people, but then you've lived through a lot of stuff, and so how does that help you in terms of. We feel like, for us, having experienced some things and which sin is never an advantage, but when you make it through some things, you're able to help some people in a unique way. Do you feel like that helps you in terms of helping people?

[C]

Yes. I mean, don't you go. I mean, just to be at the bottom of yourself? Because Christianity, God, faith, it can all be conceptual. You know, it can all be this thing that we just hope is true. But I do think there's something that has to happen in all of our lives that bring it home. It is real.

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[C]

And for me, my husband's words, which were totally of the Holy Spirit, he will tell you that I say that in the book. He takes no credit for his words in that moment, but his words to me, I don't know how to not love you. Yeah, that was a bad one. That's a good one. That's a good one.

[A]

Well, and if your problem was thinking God didn't love you, that was a really good line, you know, right up there with, howdy, ma', am, or what was that?

[C]

Thank you, ma'.

[D]

Am.

[C]

Thank you, ma'.

[B]

Am.

[C]

You know, but the powerful part of that moment is we've been married, we have kids, we're in our late 20s, and our life on the outside looks perfect. Big house, he's got a great job, white picket fences, literally. I work at the church, I'm doing all the things, and I have this deep, dark lie that is just growing and building for years in my life now. It starts out with, you're not wanted. I mean, we all have our life. We all have something based on our past that comes to surface. Usually in our 16 to 20 years, you know, we start to go Is this true? Do I have any evidence of the contrary in my life? Are my parents showing me different? Are these people showing me different? I'm at school with our friendships, all of that, they either confirm or deny the lie. That's why it's really important, young people who you hang out with and where you hang out, it's really important because they're either confirming or denying the lie.

[D]

That's it.

[C]

And the enemy loves it. The enemy could not get in me because I was a born again believer. I know that to be true. But he can use everything that we give him, like darts, weapons against us, flaming arrows, right? Yes. He watches us, he's a lion, he's prowling around and he is taking what we say, what we don't do, our non verbal, all of that, and ready to use that to just help us believe that lie in our life. And you know, I was giving him everything. I mean, I was jumping from guy to guy's bed. I was, you know, living one total facade of life. And I truly, when I met Justin after that night, I'm not kidding you, when he turned around and he gave me a hug, he did give me a hug. But I was like, I'm marrying that cowboy. I'm marrying that cowboy. But really, here's what's so messed up about the moment. My sin was still, my lie was so true. It had become so familiar. My lie had become so comfortable that I was not wanted. Even in that moment of hopefulness that I'd met this guy that was pure, had not had sex before, was a believer, was gonna love me the way that I always wanted to be love. I was saying, if I marry this guy, I prove everybody wrong. If I can just marry this guy, then all the stuff that people think I'm gonna become and not be, I'm gonna prove him wrong. I mean, that's how coded it was into my being. And so we just kind of live on that. I mean, first years of marriage, having babies, you're caught up in that world, all that. And so it's really not difficult for the enemy. And I won't even get, let's take this up. Because people, my critics, think that maybe I give the enemy too much credit of. Well, the enemy just made you say, no, no, no. Okay, let me just take all the credit myself, clear the air right here at the table. I take all the credit for my decisions. That was my responsibility to cheat on my husband. But the bed was ready, you know what I'm saying? Like the soil was Ready from years and years. And it did start. As a therapist, this is how I help people not live in condemnation. Because shame and condemnation is keeping them from confession. And we want people to confess and be free and to see ourselves a way that Jesus sees us. And so if I'm sitting here, you know, there's no hope for you. No, I want them to walk through their past and see that God all along was. Had a way for them. Nothing was missed by him. You are not a disappointment to him. Had he wanted to direct, change course at any time, he could have. I believe that God is that sovereign and to allow me to walk the road. And I have my own choices in that too. But somewhere God's sovereignty and our free will, it's a little both. And. And I do believe that my rock bottom was to sit at the lowest point the woman I said I would never become, the woman I judged before from my choir loft robe with my cross lapel, singing in the choir and watching that woman come in the back of the church and literally think, how dare she show her face here?

[B]

Yeah, gross.

[C]

That's gross. I never. That version of me is dead.

[B]

I don't even know who that is. I don't know who that person is. So. And I. And I see you get emotional with it. I don't know that I've said that about Lisa for many years. When she would get up and retell her testimony. I had forgotten a lot of things in her past and I would forget again because I don't know who that person is. When she would get up and speak, it was like she was talking about someone else, which she actually was because she was made new. She's a brand new person. But that's what the Lord does when he redeems. Yes, he makes you brand new. It's a new birth, and he makes you brand new. And he can do it every day. That's what the. What the amazing thing about him is. So many. But I. I love everything about you, you know, And I don't. I mean, the mistakes that you've made, the sins that you've created in your marriage and in your life and all that. Your husband doesn't know how to not love you. And I don't know who that person is. So. But I did want to say that Mia, when you saw. Talked about your critics. I don't know if. Oh, yeah, I want to mention this. Can we talk mention this? Because I didn't know about this till last night, but Mia, this past weekend, she was. She was Home. And I was telling her, casey and Justin are coming.

[D]

What?

[B]

What? I'm gonna miss him. All this different stuff, like, trying to figure out a way to get home because she wanted to see y' all so bad. But she said, did Casey have an affair in the kitchen? I was cooking, and I was like, yes, Mia. And she went, what in the world? There. She has some haters. She has some haters on social media. And I said, wait, like, recently? Like, I don't really. I'm not understanding the context of what she was saying, because I don't. I don't scroll social media. So I did. I don't watch the reels and all that, so I don't know any. Didn't know anything about it. But I told her, I said, have you not read her book? And she was like, what book? You know? And I realized this. She's just up and coming. She's growing up. She's. She's just now a new adult. No, no, no. I gave it to her. Okay. No, no, no. I said, she's a reader. She read like 324 books in 2025. I mean, she's a reader. And so I said. I went and got my last copy with your handwritten note about how many are in the stack or whatever. And I was like, I need this back, but you need to read this on the trip. But when I asked you about it, there are critics from her time when she was living outside of the love of the Lord, basically, and they're right. Now it's happening. There are some people who are being.

[C]

Mean, and my kids laugh because my whole thing is like, man, I think it'd be so fun. Going viral is on my bucket list. And my kids are like, mom, not.

[B]

This way, but not this way.

[C]

And so I did.

[A]

But it reminds me of that story.

[C]

Well, the Lord humbled me real quick.

[A]

But it reminds me of the John H. Story, which it's not just some story that happened 2,000 years ago. And the John, you remember, the woman caught an adultery. Everybody's with the rocks. And nope, here comes Jesus with a strange take on this. You know, you without sin, throw the first stone that has been repeating itself in churches and lives before that happened and after and is presently probably happening. And so we were talking about this last night, and because you've. You've done. You've been on other podcasts, and people with a story as rugged as yours, they tend to sensationalize the dark side because it's easy. What they call clickbait. And you know, they're lacking or editing the sensational love of God that brought you out of it, which is what should be the sensation.

[D]

By the way, Lisa got the same. We got the same criticism. It must have been the same critics, I guess, because when she explained the reason of the lie, that's why, when you were just describing. It's exactly what she says. Because her lie was because she was molested as a child. And so then her lie coming out of that was her only purpose was to please men. And when she saw me, her husband, much like Justin was to you, she saw. What she saw was her savior, a white knight. The person is going to bring her out of that. Unfortunately, I don't have the capacity to do that. There's only one that can do that.

[A]

Oh, and look, Al had a toe. I've all confess my. My sentence where. That is the thing, I guess that.

[D]

Is we're all confessing because look, I.

[A]

Would preach the right sermons. I know the verses. I know the verses. I know there's no. There's not a place you can fall that God can't reach you. But when it happened in my family, I called Al and I was like, what are you crazy? Are you actually entertaining the idea of going back with this woman? I was like. And I basically disfellowshipped my own brother for. For at least two years.

[B]

That was a hard time.

[D]

And I was angry and I thought, I don't. I don't know how to not love you. But I didn't have the articulation to say it, but that's how I felt. You acted in it, and that's so powerful. But to back to what we were talking about. They. They said what? So the things that. And she read it. I'm like, missy, I won't read it. But she. She said, they. They're saying that I'm just trying to make an excuse for my sin. Like, you know, she. You're giving this reason, so you're not taking the blame for it. And she's like, I know it was me. I did it. I'm just giving you the reason. Now. I understand the reason, but understanding the reason is what provides you then the freedom to look for Jesus in the whole place. That's the key.

[C]

Because my goodness, I promise you, I walked in a lot of shame and condemnation. I got all the punishment, and it was wild out right after. So it was two to three years of pretty consistent infidelity, and it came out on its own. Well, the Lord did it and I Would beg him to bring it to the light many times. Because I was getting sick. And I really was actually getting sick. I didn't know that I was getting sick, like with cancer, but I noticed. I mean, I'm 28 years old, so I'm like. But my hair is starting to fall out, my skin is changing, I'm weak. I mean, I felt like I couldn't breathe sometimes. And now being a therapist, I mean, I know what my brain was doing, all the unprocessed trauma, how it stores itself in the body. This is all real, by the way, but I'm living it, you know? And I start crying out to the Lord that I am not brave enough or courageous enough to say this out loud. I need you, Jesus, to bring this to the light for me, please. And I am not kidding you. I can tell you the day, the time I talk about it in the book. Exactly. I think I start the book on chapter one with that moment of feeling the most freedom. Now I know hell is coming. I know that. I mean, I fully expect for Justin to walk away, take the kids, everybody to reject me, my own family to cast me out, my church to cast me out. And a lot of that happened.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

But the freedom I felt for the first time in my life, to be honest, fully honest, fully naked, like the woman sitting there in the sand with everybody is looking at you. I was internally free. I felt joy, I felt peace. And I mean, look, we'd go through it and I actually got sick a year later. Just about a year later, I was diagnosed with stage four non Hodgkin's lymphoma. And we then walked the road of recovering from our almost marriage collapse and emotional collapse and my trauma, and then our walking through chemotherapy for two years. So I will never forget when I got a letter in the mail in the middle of my chemo. Bald head, the whole nine yards, sick as a dog. And my sweet husband is trying to process his anger, his feelings, his fear, taking care of a three year old and a six year old and taking me back and forth to treatments and can't hardly touch me for almost a year because everything feels like it's breaking. And I got a letter in the mail from an anonymous person, which we love that, love it, saying that I'm glad that you're getting the punishment that you deserve.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you know, I did not get upset at this person. I was so sad that they too, do not know the freedom I feel. And I'm dying. I am literally dying. The doctors have Told me you got fired. And I feel more alive and more free and more loved than I have ever felt in my life. And that was my moment. That was my Isaiah moment. That was like, where do you want me? Lord, send me. You touch my lips with these. With this coal, and I am forever yours. It burns. But I am convinced you are who you said you are.

[A]

I love it. Now, look, we're almost out of time, but at some point in the. From there, you realize what you're called to, not what you're saved from, which is always there. And y' all took over a small town there, and you have the name of what is it now? How should I depict that?

[B]

Go ahead, tell us.

[C]

Well, I, in short, wanted to create a place that I needed. I mean, that's really. I needed people, I needed relationships, I needed belonging. I needed not to be a number. I'd been in so many clinics and hospitals and so sick and had. So I was just a number. And I thought, what if a place existed where you can get healing resources, mental health counseling, work through your past. Doctors, nutritionists, chiropractors, physical fitness, the whole nine yards of coffee. Coffee is so healing, so good medicine. Unless it's Jace's coffee. Choke that bad boy down. But I thought, what if all that existed under one roof and could be done not in a preachy environment or a religious environment, in a safe, warm, biblically based environment, a Christian context of, we're going to let you be wherever you are. This is safe. You can show up wherever you are if you can be cussing God if that's where you need to be. But we are going to bring you back to the truth every time. We're going to tell you the truth about your life and how much he loves you until you believe it. And I thought I needed that, and I needed that with other people. And I also needed just practical healing. So two years ago, we totally remodeled our old historic home in downtown Bryan, College Station, Texas.

[A]

And I actually treasure hunted the yard.

[C]

Yes, you did. Built in 1905. I was hoping for a big treasure, but we opened a nonprofit, the Lord. When we bought the house in Covid, at rock bottom, he said, this is not yours. I want you to take this. I want you to make it a beautiful space of dignity for healing to happen with your community. So as hard as it was because she's so beautiful, we did, and we turned it over. And In August of 23, we opened Madewell House. You can learn more about [e-mail] we started with two staff members, and we were serving about 80 people a month. And through only Jesus, we have 38 staff members, and we serve 3,500 people a month right now in Bryan College Station.

[B]

3,500Amonth. That's amazing.

[C]

It's unreal.

[B]

We were out walking earlier today in the neighborhood, and we ran across some girls that are staying with. With Corey's parents right now. And she had on her madewell shirt, Casey did. And we were talking, introducing ourselves and all that, and they were like, what do you do? And Casey said, well, I run madewell House. And they were like, you're made. We know madewell. They know about madewell. So it's really awesome.

[A]

So here's how you'll remember it. So if you keep getting bigger, I have a Madewell Part 2, and you name it. Well, made, Made. Well.

[C]

Yeah, I kind of gonna run that, boy.

[A]

You're welcome.

[D]

Jason started a marketing company, and I didn't even get to ask you about the Rahab Hagar book, but that you just. I found that fascinating because I have a sermon about that. But we'll have to bring you back next time to do that. But thank you for being so transparent and vulnerable today. It's so good for our audience. And to authenticate your life is so important because that's how people see Jesus the most. And so you did that today. So thank you for that.

[B]

Thank you for keeping she Does It Every Day.

[D]

Awesome. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.