← Unashamed with the Robertson Family
Unashamed with the Robertson Family
Ep 1262 | Are Demons, the Devil & Spiritual Warfare Real or Just Symbolic?
00:57:00
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- [00:02]
A
I am unashamed.
- [00:04]
B
What about you?
- [00:07]
C
Welcome back to Unashamed. The last episode, we were talking about the ice apocalypse because we're just kind of. We're still coming out from under Zach. You guys left today. We were supposed to do some. Some filming and some work here along with your Duck Hunt experience. And so. And then Melissa came with you, your sister. And so we enjoyed. We had her during the storm and enjoyed her and Paisley, her daughter. But you guys got back and then you. Where you went to New York, which was like they had had a big storm.
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A
What a culture shock. You go from North Carolina to Louisiana in the ice storm, which the. The byproduct of that was bear. He'll never forget that because he got in on an epic hunt.
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C
He loved it. He did. We had a good talk about it.
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A
He. He got in with old Uncle J. We had a very good spiritual conversation after you left. Very, very good. But so. And then you go to New York. Tell us about it.
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C
Yeah. What. What happened there?
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B
Well, he told me on the way home. I said, what do you think he said?
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C
I really.
- [01:10]
B
He said, Jace really spoke into me. That's what he said. And he. And he re. Re capped Yalls entire conversation. And it was in that moment, Jason, I was. I had a moment of gratitude for you, so.
- [01:22]
A
Well, I appreciate that. That. But it's not me. It's. I mean, I've just gotten to where I guess maybe too since our dad died. Al. I mean, I feel like somebody's got to have the tough conversations. And there's something about a duck blind, especially in tough conditions, because we had a moment while we were duck hunting because my dad. We had about a 15 year argument, I guess, on where to put the blind. We had a pipeline come through our land. Well, it actually, as much as my dad didn't like that and fought it for years. I mean, they paid him to do this. But you know how he was against it for. He was like, I don't care what you're going to pay me. There's no pipeline coming through here. But you know, they had this clause for the good of the people that it had to be done. And so they paid him. But it actually helped us because, you know, you can. It's under the ground and it's like a big open territory. So we just.
- [02:29]
C
Well, the way they worked it out was they allowed him, which most people don't want to maintain or do anything with a pipeline, but they allowed him to do what he wanted to do, you know, with the area, so we.
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A
Plant crops on it. And so. And the ducks come. But along that pipeline, we argued about where to put the duck blind. And I always thought that we were about 70 yards to 150 too far north on it. And the ducks kept lighting about 100 yards to the right. And he famously would say, I heard this argument, you've got to move where the ducks are. So one of the first things I did, now that I'm kind of taking over the land, I moved that blind. And so about five days ago, I guess we saw some ducks hit that, because finally the water got on it. And I said, let's go hunt there the next morning. So it was an inaugural blind. We got in there. Al and I have a picture that I'll post of our ducks. It was epic. It was a.
- [03:38]
C
And they came right to that spot.
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A
Right in the decoys. And so after the hunt, everybody was just like, this was unbelievable. And I was like, well, I'm going to have to ask you all a favor. And everybody kind of looked at me because it's like, I don't usually say something like that because I wanted to ask you a favor. I said, when we all get to the next life in our new bodies, I don't think I'd bring this up that I was right because we killed six limits of mallards and. And off ducks in that new hole. I mean, it was epic.
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B
We don't. We don't really know what happens in the in between stage. I know there's debate on it. Phil always thought you fall asleep, but there is that scripture that says, we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.
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C
Yeah.
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B
So if that's true and Phil is witnessing, he actually may know, and he may be up there right now or wherever.
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C
Well. And one thing I know about dad is once he sees the truth for the truth, he'll say, you know what, O.J. he was right. He was right about that.
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A
What's crazy is we put another blind on the other end of the pipeline. Never had hunted. And we hunted it two days before it closed. We shot a limit of ducks in less than an hour. 30 ducks. And Jay had his crew. I called him up because we had a guest, and I said, y' all need to come up here. And he said, when? I said, now get your stuff. And then they got in and they killed 30 ducks before 10 o'. Clock. Wow. We killed the first time it had been hunted. So we had two blinds that were. Just think about it, brand new blinds. Water never got on them. The Whole year until the last week. And we hunted them each once and killed full limits. And in the one, we killed two full limits in one morning, which was incredible.
- [05:41]
C
Well, if dad were here, he'd say, yeah, now everybody's shooting and high fiving, and it's happy, happy, happy. Everybody's, you know, because we're killing some ducks around here. He talks about the morale change. All right, Zach, we hijacked your New York. What happened there? What'd you do?
- [05:55]
B
Well, New York was shut down, too. So we got up there and it was about 0 degrees, 4 degrees. Yeah. I went up there for a conference that our church, me and one of our other pastors went up with our wives, went up to. To a prayer conference at John Tyson's church. Church of the city.
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C
And so that's the guy you listen to, J. Yeah, I do.
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A
I. I like his passion.
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B
Very power. It was passionate, if it was. Yeah, it was.
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C
It was.
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B
It was a great time. We went up there and it was. And we. Surviving the, you know, the freezing cold was, you know, going from. Going from where we went to New York was kind of funny. It's quite. Quite the contrast. You know what I mean? But we had a good time, and we had some good food while we were there. New York was kind of. Nobody was there, though. It's too cold. Nobody's getting out. Even up north. Even up north. But they move around a little bit better than we do. We did have trouble getting back in the town because while we were there, it snowed in an Asheville.
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C
Bomb cyclone is what they call. Oh, it was bomb cyclone. That sounds bad.
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A
What's crazy is yesterday I came in here to. I was going to use the dumpster at Doug Commander because we had to clean out our refrigerator. And when I was pulling out, I saw a car pulling in. Of course it's closed, it's Sunday, and it's an ice storm. But I saw it on their faces that they were not from around here, and they recognized me. So they stopped, turned around, and pulled into the little store out here, not Duck Commander, and rolled down the windows. And so I was waiting to get out because traffic was terrible. And I said, what's going on? I rolled down my window. What's going on? They went to hollering and screaming, and I could tell by their accents they weren't from around here. I said, where are y' all from? I mean, we're hollering. They're like 30 yards from me. They said, we're from New York. And I was like, are y' all lost? But they said, no, we just came to help, you know, with the storm. Oh, that's awesome. We wanted to see duck. They like, we live right on the Canadian border. And I said, well, tell Canada hey from us. I know tensions are a little tight, but thanks for sending us the ducks. And then. Then I looked up, nobody was coming. I blew the. Blew the horn. But I thought, what in the world?
- [08:19]
C
You know, we were in. In this little town in Illinois, and we were speaking that day, and so we stopped in this little diner downtown, this just kind of old Americana downtown area, and this little cafe was there. And so we go in. I saw some people looking, and I guess you just. In a small town, especially you, somebody shows up new, and everybody's kind of looking anyway. But two or three people, I thought recognized who we were. But we order our meal, and we're eating. The final little girl comes over. I saw them all on their phones over there. I said, oh, they know who we are. And the little girl comes over, and she said, are you who I think you are? And I was like, who do you think I am? And she said, were you ever on the show Duck Dynasty? I said, I was on that show. And I said, but who do you think I am? And she wasn't sure which one I was. That was what was funny. And then. And then all of a sudden, everybody starts taking the pictures and. But, you know, these. You go places. You know, Illinois is considered, you know, we would call it a blue state because of their democratic, you know, establishment and government and all this stuff. But that's all up in the northern part in Chicago, because down south, literally, it's just like I was in West Monroe or wherever. You know, it was just rednecks and hunters, and everybody's got camo on, and people came to the event. They were just, you know, our kind of folks. And so I always feel kind of bad for them because you're living in a place that, you know, the values are so different, and so you're kind of under that tier, and they have to live under that. So that was real strict gun laws. And New York's the same way. Those people up in the northern part of the state, they're just hunters and everything, but they got to live with the laws that are set more for New York City or Chicago or wherever. And so I always just feel bad for them. And I feel like when we go somewhere like that, it's almost like, you know, these are our people, and it makes them feel good. About it. So I always enjoy that same way.
- [10:16]
B
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- [10:24]
C
We are very, very comfortable.
- [10:26]
B
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- [11:42]
A
Well, we need a reset of First John. It's been a while.
- [11:45]
C
We do, we do. It's been a minute and we've had a lot of guests on which is great by the way. When I was in St. Louis on my trip I got to spend a couple of days with Phyllis and Tony because that' they live now and she's working Zach with your dad on finishing up the book and they were doing some. You guys have responded great. When she was on the podcast and we appreciate that with her pre sales and stuff. And the book is really, really good. You're going to love it. It's of course we read some excerpts from, you know, dad's kind of lead into it. So I think that's going to go really well. But we hadn't been in First John in a while So I think we kind of need to reset ourselves to get back. We left off in 2:2, which is that first opening section. And, you know, people outline it differently. I kind of use the faith fellowship and forgiveness alliteration in my outline because we talked about faith in the life. Remember, it was the eternal life. That word was it I.
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A
And I. I kind of broke it down, as in starts off talking about this life.
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C
Yep.
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A
And then it does a section on light and then a section on love, and then it kind of finishes back with the life that we're a part of.
- [12:59]
C
Right. Yeah. I did faith fellowship in the light, faith in the life. So I was kind of like you. I use both and then felt and forgiveness. And in that section of 17 through 2 2, we talked about. Jason spent quite a bit of time about the idea of the advocate and the atonement. Those are sort of the two thoughts that are in there the most, is that the Holy Spirit walking alongside us. But the same word is used for Jesus Christ, the righteous one. This idea of an advocate. And then he's also the one that atones. And we spent quite a bit of time talking about that. And that's where we went through the book of Hebrews. And this idea of that.
- [13:38]
A
Well, I think it kind of changes the narrative. Most people kind of have this narrative of the Bible where it's like, you know, you start off with God and man and, you know, sin happens and there's a separation and then Jesus comes. And then if you put your trust in Jesus, you either go to heaven or hell. But really it's a. You know, the Bible is more about God choosing this nation of Israel because, yes, he created man in the first 11 chapters of Genesis, but it just kind of goes wrong. And so he chooses this nation of Israel, which would ultimately bring the Messiah, Jesus, the Son of God. And then his death and resurrection is. Becomes this historic moment in time where a new creation is launched. And through the nation of Israel producing Jesus, all nations could be blessed. And I think a lot of that particular view, I think, is more consistent with the narrative of the Bible. And I think you see that when you start talking about what Jesus is doing now at the right hand of God. And we talk so much about heaven and earth coming back together and kind of overlapping. And even when we talk about life, the way they defined it was more about the different ages, the present age and the age to come. And you really see this in Ephesians, so we went through Hebrews, but I think you see the same storyline in Ephesians. And then John has his version of it. But it's like you can have a glimpse of new life and new creation now, which is where we're fixed to get to when he starts talking about the light is already shining. Because you remember when Jesus died, it was like darkness covered the land. And this light and darkness is a theme showing how God is not just up there a million miles away and doesn't care. No, Jesus is at the right hand of God right now. Yeah.
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C
And even the fact that he went through the darkness of that period of when he was abused and beaten, and even then while on the cross, you remember that eclipse happens, or even worse, I mean, just supernatural darkness that was. And just imagine what that would have been like. And all that showed that.
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A
That.
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C
Because he's going to say in this next section, starting in verse three, we know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, I know him, but does not do what he commands is a liar. The truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in Him. Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. So he immediately makes this shift into that. We are now imitators of Christ. And Zach, we're studying C.S. lewis on the Hillsdale part of our podcast. But I was listening to this professor talk about CS Lewis's points about suffering and pain, and he made a really strong point about CS Lewis kept talking about that. Remember the utterance on the cross? You know, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And the idea of going through that on the cross. And he said something really interesting I had never thought about before. He said a lot of times, because we know about the resurrection, we just kind of go quickly across the crucifixion and say, yeah, but he's resurrected. And so therefore it's all good news because he went through that. But he said, C.S. lewis made the point you have to take the crucifixion for what it was before the resurrection, that Jesus went through that and that he was actually buried for three days. And I had not really thought about that. In other words, it's easy to say, well, Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen. He knew God was going to raise him from the dead because he had predicted it. But that didn't lessen what he went through at all.
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B
That's been awesome as we've gone through the C.S. lewis course, because he talked about, and we discussed this in great detail. But Lewis's work was always about, like, descent, descend lower, and then ascent, then coming up. And so, you know, that's. That's what Christ did.
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A
He.
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B
He becomes human. He suffers death and dies literally. So he descends, descends more. And then God raises him from the dead and then he ascends even higher where he enters into that heavenly tabernacle. But I think why that matters is because when you think about probably what Jace was kind of alluding to this earlier, most of us grew up in a Western evangelical. If you grew up in a Western evangelical tradition, you grew up with thinking about the Gospel simply as I got saved from my sin, Jesus paid for it, and now I get to go to heaven. And that's kind of where it sticks. That's where. And so the rest of our life, what do we do? We spend the rest of our lives trying to tell other people that same story and get them to do the same thing we did. And that's our whole point. But. But the problem where I think that falls is that it's missing this key part of the Gospel, which is union with Christ, it's participation with Christ. It misses out on that. And so you read a verse like what you just read in First John 2, when it says, and by this we know that we have come to know him if we keep his commandments. So I would read that verse 15 years ago and think, well, what that means is if I don't keep his commandments, then I don't know him, which means that I'm not doing the thing I'm supposed to do. So I would try to.
- [19:41]
C
So one minute I'm in love with him, and the next minute I'm not.
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A
That's why I brought up the story of Israel and I brought up the book of Ephesians because I think we're so Westernized in our approach of the Bible, we're missing what this is saying.
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C
Yeah, absolutely.
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A
And when he gave the commandment we all remember, well, that's all about the story of Israel, which is why this whole debate about election and predestination just went off the rails. Because when you read Ephesians 1, it's pretty clear that he chose a nation, Israel. And when Abraham came on the scene, which I would argue is more the narrative of the Bible, he said, I chose you. And he was just some pagan guy going out there living his life. And all of a sudden he starts giving him all this, here's how you're going to bless the Entire world, you know, all nations will be blessed by you. And so.
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C
And the only thing that really made him special was that when God told him to go, he went.
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A
He went, which. Look, when God has a conversation with you, kind of like Paul, Saul, Paul, you say, well, because that was all about light. Remember when the light bulb came on for him? When you're having a conversation with Jesus while he's at the right hand of God, guess what? Illumination happens so bright that.
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C
So bright that it would blind you physically.
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A
Yeah.
- [21:16]
B
So me and Jill often will have to come back to the drawing board and kind of reestablish, you know, what we're spending, because sometimes your spending gets out of. Out of hand and you got to get back and manage it. Now, I have a tool called Rocket Money that I've been using and it has given me a lot of extra time because it takes all of the work out for me. For example, I had a lot of subscriptions that I was paying for two and three times each. And Rocket Money helped me figure out which ones I was paying for. A lot of hidden fees I didn't know I had. They really did all the work for me. I just entered in my information and they told me what to do. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions. It helps you monitor your spending, and it helps you lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money helped me cut my spending in a lot of different categories. But like entertainment, I'm actually saving hundreds of dollars a year on Rocket Money. I can actually create a personalized budget to help keep my spending on track. I get alerts if my bills increase in price or if there's any kind of unusual spending activity. Plus their goals features can help you determine the best time of month for you to put a little extra money aside. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you. They deal with the customer service teams so that you don't have to. So let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join@RocketMoney.com Unashamed that's Rocket Money.com Unashamed again, that's RocketMoney.com Unashamed. And I. And I gotta. Yeah, I gotta. I gotta just kind of hit on that a little bit more because it's so key. I agree. You get to Ephesians, and I mean, my whole life, I grew up reading Ephesians in this context of a debate between the Calvinist and the Armenian. And what is it? Predestination. I'M like that you're missing the whole point. Like if you're in the debate. I don't think that's what, what Ephesians is. It's not the point that Paul's making. No, you're main point that Paul, this is an eschatological argument of the kingdom coming and God is taking two people groups, Gentile and Jew. This is the mystery. I mean he says it very clearly. This is the mystery that he's taken two people groups and he's bringing them into one family, one cohesive family. So to reduce it to just this, this what's called soteriology of just salvation, of getting justified and just reducing the whole like Paul's whole writing to an argument on one side or the other about justification. I think it's to miss the much broader category of what in story that Paul is trying to illuminate for us, which is this, that Christ is inviting us through the illumination of the Spirit into a participation into the inner life of God. And that. And you know it. When you read that text that we were just reading in first John, he says if you don't keep his commandments, it's because you don't know him. This isn't prove that you know him by keeping the commandments. That's not what he's saying. If you keep the commandments, then you will show and you will finally earn the fact to know God. That's not what he's saying. He's saying that to know God, to actually know him, is to believe in his revelation that this is the good life which would lead you into obedience. And to the degree that we obey the commandments of God is the degree to which we actually get to participate into his life. It's not approving or an earning of salvation, it's a participation in salvation.
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C
It's a.
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B
And when we take the gospel and we reduce it only to a conversation about justification, here's the problem with that. It reduces it and it has nothing to say about what about right now. What about the life I'm in right now? Yes, I've been saved from my sin, but what about now? I want transformation. And I think that's what is being offered here in this text. Primarily through the Spirit as we abide in Christ. Right.
- [25:11]
C
And I think the timing of the book, we've mentioned this before, of when John writes this particular letter shows you exactly what you just said, Zach. Because you got to imagine, I'm sure the anticipation was. And especially once the temple was destroyed. I mean we're going to all be lifted out of here pretty quick. I mean, this is the end of they're thinking the end of everything. And they were only 60 years into this thing. Now here we are, another 2,000. That's why all these things have reached, risen up, because everybody's still waiting for the end. But the newness of it was just what you described. And he illustrates just what you said, Zach, in verses 7 and 8. Listen to what he says. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command, but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. Remember, he's talking about love of God. This old command is the message you've heard. Then he says, yet I am writing you a new command. And what's changed? Jesus. Its truth is seen in him and you because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
- [26:12]
A
That was my point. This light is already shining in people via the Holy Spirit, based on what Jesus did and what he's doing now. Which is why I brought up Ephesians. When he said he starts the letter off, he kind of doesn't explain it. I mean, I know we went through Ephesians, but when he gets to chapter three, he kind of explains the letter that he's revealed, revealing. And that word is apocalypse. When people think that, they think, oh, scary imagery. No, he was just revealing what Jesus death, burial and resurrection means, which to Zach's point, is that all ethnic groups can be one. And where does John go with this? He's talking about, well, we shouldn't hate like they did in the days of Cain when Cain killed Abel and the world was filled with violence. Remember that verse in Genesis 6? You say, well, why did all that happen? Because man sinned. And all of a sudden they weren't imaging God, they were spilling blood. They were filling the earth with other people's blood because they hated each other. And God's love is sitting there saying, well, what about this? Why not Trust me? And so here God chooses a nation that would eventually bring himself.
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B
To the.
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A
Earth in Jesus, which that is really what the predestination was all about. It was bringing Christ. And that if you're in Christ, you get to participate in that predestination and election in him.
- [27:54]
B
Because Paul also says in Romans 8, I believe that the predestination is to be conformed into the image of the Son. Well, what is that? That. That ain't something that happened one time. That's a process of becoming. That's an ongoing process of sanctification that I'm Again, union with Christ, being conformed into the image, transformed into the image. My will comes underneath his will. And then over a lifetime of walking with him and abiding in him, guess what? My affections change. The things I want change. My desires change. That's why you read in that text in First John, what does he say at the very end of First John about the desires of the world? He says, man, those things are fleeting. He said, the world is passing away along with its desires. So you want to know, man, how do I know if my desires are aligned with the will of God? Well, ask yourself this question. Is it taking more and more like, stimuli to get you amped up in your desire? If so, that's a worldly desire, or are you able to actually. Are your desires becoming more sensitive? Are you able to find joy and satisfaction and pleasure with less stimuli? That's an affection. That's from the Lord. And as our desires are renewed and come underneath his rule and reign, it's like we can enjoy small, mundane things and find immense pleasure in things like gardening or walking or eating a meal or. You know what I mean?
- [29:22]
C
Or even making it through the ice. So essentially, you said that because remember the. The phrase make my joy complete? We looked at that in previous podcasts because Jesus said that quite a few times. And we kind of watched the evolution of the complete joy Jesus would have through his suffering and then through his resurrection and his ascension. And then John just drops a new phrase in here that's only used in John. It's used about four different times. And that's make my love complete. So he takes the same Jesus idea what you want. You were just describing, Zach, what it looks like when our joy is made complete, that's when Christ is in us. Now he takes it another level in the idea of our love being made complete. And again, that only can happen through Christ. It's used in 1 John 2:5 4:12 and 4:17. It's the only time the phrase is used in the New Testament. John used it in this book, in this letter. And so I thought it was interesting because you do go back and look like Deuteronomy 6, Leviticus 19, Matthew 22. Even James mentions the Royal Law, this idea that you love God and love your neighbor. And that's why he says it's not new. I mean, the idea has been here all along. But what is new? The new is that Jesus came and Jesus in his spirit, and now we're a part of that. And that's why he puts it in the next context about back to light and dark. Jace. He says, anyone who claims to be in the light, but hates his brother, he's still in darkness. In other words, how do you exhibit the love of Christ if you're living a life that's still in darkness? It would be like, Zach, when you were describing about looking at it from a Western perspective of the in and out. It would be like getting married. And unfortunately, people do this. And then every day the status of your marriage is decided by how well things went or what your wife or your husband did, do, or didn't do for you. And at the end of every day, you would have to redecide whether you should stay married or not. Now that sounds like hell. That doesn't sound like heaven at all. And yet that's what a lot of marriages are. Why? Because they haven't come together in the union. That was designed by union. It's all about participate. Yeah. And then over years, that gets. It gets better, not worse.
- [31:39]
B
Well, one thing to think about, that's just kind of a scary thing. But it's hit me when I was in New York at this conference, and John Tyson started off the entire conference with kind of a shocking sermon. I mean, I was not expecting him to say what he said. I think I had, you know, if you, like, listen to someone enough, you. You feel like I know what they're going to say. I kind of know their material. And I was expecting a lot more of a conversation on spiritual formation and the practices and, you know, renewal, revival. I mean, this is what he's. This is a lot of what he's written about, talked about, and he. And he's. I would say, I mean, Jason, you've listened to John quite a bit. I mean, I had him on the Not yet now podcast. I want to have him on this podcast to probably talk about this, actually.
- [32:26]
A
Yeah, that was my idea two years ago and you hijacked.
- [32:31]
C
Still. Still waiting there.
- [32:33]
B
I sent an invitation and the time slot he had, we would have had to re. We couldn't make it work on Unashamed. But I want him.
- [32:40]
A
Slot.
- [32:42]
B
Yeah, time slot issue. But I do want to have him on to talk about this because he said. He said that he has sat in. In a lot of deep theological study, which we do, too. I love all that. But he said, man, he said, there's one area. And I'm paraphrasing what he said, but there's one area that he has become increasingly aware of in the last year, which is a spiritual warfare. And And I don't. When he began to talk about this, the darkness that has. It really is so pervasive over our land that there is a demonic realm of principalities. And this is, you know, again, this is in the scriptures. Right. There's principalities that rule that have actually real power that are not. They don't have our best interest at heart. There's. There's principalities over things like lust and pornography and, and just the political outrage culture and like all the. Or the anxiety that's gripped our land, gripped our nation, gripped our young people. And his point was we, we need to start contending and take serious what is happening in the spiritual realm. And, And I, I look, we. One of the scariest books I read was the one that Joe Beam wrote. How many years ago was that, Al?
- [34:01]
C
Probably 20 plus years ago.
- [34:03]
B
20 years ago. But, you know, he had come out of a. I mean, he come out of extreme darkness. Yeah. And almost lost his soul.
- [34:09]
C
Yeah.
- [34:10]
B
And when he came out of that.
- [34:11]
C
And did lose his family for a.
- [34:13]
B
While and then lost his family, where our fight is not against flesh and blood. And we have to remember that as we are, as we're moving into this conversation and what we're talking about right now, this is not about our theological, you know, understandings and our great philosophical inquiries. This truly is about getting out of participation with the evil demonic realm, which is real, and getting into participation with Christ through the Holy Spirit. I mean, that's the contrast, and the stakes are extremely high. And that's the only way we're going to find real illumination.
- [34:57]
C
As you know, I lost a lot of weight last year on the PhD weight loss program. So I've gotten thinner, which this winter has made me much colder. And I'm married to a woman having hot flashes. So it's been an interesting winter to say the least. But I feel so much better. If you're out there and you tried keto or Paleo or Weight Watchers or intermittent fasting, you know the drill. You lose the weight, then it comes right back. There's one thing that determines whether your body burns fat or stores it. And if you don't fix that first, every diet will fail. At PhD weight loss, they've identified that one thing, and they built a plan that works with your body, not against it. Here's a picture of me at the beginning of 2025, and here I am now. And you see, not only do I look better, but I also feel better off most of my meds now that I had before. I have no more CPAP machine, which was a great freedom from that as well. So if you call now, they'll give you two free weeks in the program and pay for your food so you can finally see real results without more trial and error. If you're done with yo yo dieting and want clarity, call PhD weight loss now and mention Al. No more guessing, just answers. Call 864-644-1900 and say ow. That's 864-644-1900. Or you can visit myphdweightloss.com I want to read a couple of passages to this point about this idea of love and how it's tied into Christ. And one of them is 2 Thessalonians 3, 5. And this is a context of prayer. When Paul's writing to the Thessalonians, he says, may the Lord direct your hearts into God's love and Christ's perseverance. And I like that he puts those two things together. See how that's this idea of this walking in the light. The love and the perseverance are together. And then listen what Jude Jude in Jude 21 says. And again, it was about prayer. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. And there's that same word We've been talking about the life again, and two different authors with the same exact thought that John is putting forth here in First John 2 is the idea that in that walk is that light and that love. And when you go through things, it only makes you stronger, not weaker. And so the evidence that it's not working is if you can't get along with your brothers. John makes that point. He says, look, obviously he's dealing with something where they're having these factions and these cessationists, and they're backing away from the faith. And he's like, you can't live like this. You can't. And the ultimate argument we're going to get into in the end of chapter two is you can't claim these things that are wrong about Jesus and somehow still be right with what he's doing here on Earth. And so to me, it's just so clear. And we've made it about the obedience part and much less about the love and the light part and being in it.
- [38:13]
A
Well, I think y' all bring up some good points, because this is not necessarily a letter, which is different, a Different format. It's kind of a sermon to the house church here that John's writing. And there are some people.
- [38:27]
C
That's why he keeps repeating the themes over and over.
- [38:29]
A
Well, right. So if you feel like why y' all are jumping all over the place because he basically says the same thing about 17 different ways.
- [38:38]
B
That's right.
- [38:39]
A
And. But I think Zach really hit on the spiritual warfare because, you know, we're talking about darkness at this stage. Darkness, darkness, darkness. There's no fellowship with light. You're either in the light, which I have so many confrontations with people in duck blinds and on the side of the road. And it's always confusing. Like when you ask somebody about their life and the first default setting is, well, I'm confused. And I usually say, there's nothing confusing about it. You're either following, you're either all in for Jesus or you're all out. And it's amazing when you just make blanket statements like that and say, am I right or wrong? And they're like, oh, you're right. It just clears up all the confusion because there's darkness, there's a lot of sin, the evil one. And all these powers that Zach mentioned. Well, he's going to bring that up if you just kind of. At this point, he's talking about, okay, there's a sin problem. I'm writing this so that you won't have sin. You need to obey the commands. You know, Jesus died for your sins and stay out of darkness. What fellowship is there in darkness? Well, then when he gets to chapter two and verse 15, which we're going to get to, he starts talking about don't love the world. And it's confusing in the Greek language because there's four different words for worlds. And if you look them all up, you're going to be more confused than when you started. But you start to look at other passages where this kind of thought line is seeked out. And like Ephesians 2, and I'll just read the first couple of verses when he says, as for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world. Same world that 1 John 2 is going to say, do not love the world or anything in the world. But that's also the same verse that says, for God so loved the world that he sent his only son. So people think, well, what is the world? We have one word for world, and we view it as creation. But it's a little different here within this world, there are those who are held captive by the evil one. That's what Ephesians 2 says.
- [41:03]
C
And we do have. To your point, Jason, we do have other uses because we would say we understand the world as you described it. But then you'll hear somebody say, well, you know, in my world. And then they'll describe something in their little centric family or so we even have different expressions of the world.
- [41:19]
A
So God made the world. We all agree. He loves the world, we all agree, but we did something to the world. Because I think a key verse. Zach and I were talking about this in the Dope Blind the other day. I pointed this out when it says verse 16 of chapter 2, for everything in the world, the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes, and the boasting of what he has and does, which eerily echoes Ephesians 2, where it says verse 3, all of us lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by association objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ. Well, back to First John 2, it says that these things, the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes, the boast in what he has and does. Here's a key little phrase comes not from the Father. You're like, well, I thought he made the world. I thought he did all this. And you know, and some people, once again with the wrong narrative are like, oh, yeah, God, he made evil so that somehow he could be glorified. No, it doesn't come from the Father, but it comes from the world. When you say, well, what did we do? Or what happened to the world that was kind of apart from the Father? Oh, I got a good idea. We started worshiping and serving the created things and making idols of the created things in cahoots with the evil one.
- [43:00]
B
Who gets quote and quit giving thanks. I mean, think about what they did. They did not thank God. That's why their hearts became darkened. That's why their thoughts became futile, is because they. They looked around, they started. They started participating with the demonic realm and giving their dominion over to the creation itself to have dominion over them. And as a byproduct of that, you just quit thanking God. You quit thanking him and then you can't live in the participatory life. That is what we're called to. That's such a good point. When you brought this up, the duck Line, by the way, look.
- [43:33]
A
And then when. So when he gets to chapter three, that. That's why this. This sermon is kind of difficult to wrap your head around. He's going to where we're jumping ahead and going. Because it's such a profound statement. When it says chapter three and verse six, it says, no one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. So we're like, well, wait a minute.
- [44:02]
C
I thought you started out saying we can't claim we don't have sin.
- [44:05]
A
Yeah, it's like, well, maybe there's something wrong with your narrative is why you're having a hard time wrapping your head around this. Because then he explains it. He says, dear children, and this is the whole point of his sermon. Don't let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful. Now look who he brings up here. Talking about spiritual war is of the devil, which echoes Ephesians 2 when it says, you follow the ways of this world and the ruler of the kingdom of the air.
- [44:37]
C
Not only that, James, but Ephesians 2, Ephesians 6:12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm.
- [44:49]
A
Exactly. So then he echoes in chapter three and verse eight, he who does what is sinful is of the devil. So when you read that or just say that to a person in a duck blind, he's saying, I'm just confused. So let me clear this up. You're on the wrong team. Even though you don't seem. You don't see God either, right? You don't see the evil one. But by association, who are you running with? I mean, I think there's a rock and roll song that says that. I mean, they were proud of it. Running with the Devil. Well, let me know how that works out for you.
- [45:25]
C
Yeah.
- [45:25]
A
Because I know it doesn't have a good ending.
- [45:27]
C
No, it always ends poorly.
- [45:29]
A
Yes, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. Beginning of what? Well, you go back to Genesis 3 and you see what happened in. In our beginning. We.
- [45:40]
B
We have.
- [45:40]
A
There's a battle of spiritual forces.
- [45:42]
C
We inherited that. So we've been talking a lot about the ice apocalypse here lately. And, you know, it's also. Jay, don't think about it. It's not just hard on us, it's hard on our little pets, too. It's tough. They have to go outside, you know, know to go to the bathroom. And you got to remember to feed those guys and keep them warm. And we all know as pet owners, right? I mean, you know, they get sick, you're taking them to the vet. You're back and forth, you're trying to figure out what's going on. We found out from our good friend Dr. Dennis Black. He came up with this product called Rough Greens that most of the issues with your pets comes from a weak immune system. It's usually from eating this processed dead food year after year. And so he's come up with this product. It's packed with live nutrients that work from the inside out. Gives your dog or your cat the foundation they need to thrive instead of just patching up symptoms. So what he says is, get off of the vet visit. Merry go round. With America's number one dog supplement, thousands of pet owners are seeing the difference. Energy, shinier coats, fewer problems. I know my dogs are excited every time they line up. This last week, it was in the snow to be able to get some food and also to be able to get some ruff Greens. So right now you can try it for yourself with a free jump start trial bag. Just cover the shipping. Because the best doctor visit is the one you never have to make. Go to roughgreens.com use the promo code unashamed to break the cycle today. Ruffgreens.com promo code unashamed.
- [47:19]
A
And it's just passed on. And you make the same decision as Adam and Eve. You say, oh, well, I didn't. I mean, it looked good to me. It was their fault. It wasn't my fault. I didn't do anything.
- [47:28]
C
It looked delicious. It looked like I would gain some wisdom. Why wouldn't I?
- [47:32]
A
Why wouldn't I? And so we just set our own agenda as far as morality, which is what that was described as the knowledge of good and evil. Do you want to trust God in those things or do you want to make your own plan? Yeah, and we make our own plan. But here's the profound statement that back half of 1 John 3:8, the reason the son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. So forget the debate on who's at fault. Who's more at fault? We're in cahoots with the wrong spirit.
- [48:06]
C
That's right.
- [48:07]
A
Which is the spirit of the evil one. No one who is born of God will continue to sin. So he's looking at it from a different perspective. Perspective on what you're participating in. That's why he's so big on. Look, he's atoned you, he's cleaned you. He's made you new. Ephesians 2 says he made you alive and seated us. He raised us with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms, in Christ Jesus.
- [48:36]
B
That's why when you move through the rest of this letter, that this, even this idea of atonement, when you get to. When you get to chapter four, it is not disassociated from abiding with Christ, living with Christ, which is participatory. And I think this idea of the spiritual realm, like, we have done a disservice by not focusing on this because it's a real active force and power that's coming against the sons and daughters of God. But at the same time, we also have one who is greater in us, right? The Holy Spirit. And so the call here is to yield back to the Spirit. But when you think about the idea of what's happening when you mentioned that, like, where does sin originate? That is a key point. It does not originate with God. And any theology that would. That would lead you to believe that that's just not true. It's not in the. Sin is our problem. God does not sin. It is impossible for God to sin. It is impossible for God to lie. Sin does not come from the Father, but from the world. And the world, here's the contrast is passing away along with its desires. So when you think about how do you know if what you're being sold is a. Is a lie and it's from the devil and it's demonic and it is part of witchcraft and it is something that is meant to destroy you and kill you and evaporate your soul and every. Rip the life out of you. How do you know? Look at the fruit. Look at the fruit. Is the fruit the fruit of the spirit? Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control? Is that what it's yielding? Or is it yielding something that you gotta keep taking more of it and more of it and more of it to just stay afloat? I can take you right now to downtown Asheville, where I live. Where? And it's not just in Asheville. Our country is in an epidemic of drug addiction right now. Any major city in the US I don't remember this when I was a kid growing up. I don't remember driving through Atlanta or, or Charlotte or Asheville or any city and just seeing encampments of people who are addicted to fentanyl and all these tranquilizers and, and, and just the posture of these people when you see them, they're like on the side of the street, needles everywhere. You think, man, what is this?
- [50:47]
C
And then Zach, I just was in St. Louis and on every, at every red light that I, that I would stop at, there was a person there that obviously was, was on drugs. You just tell from there where they were staggering around, walking, trying to get money to buy more drugs. And look, it never got above 15 degrees. These people were in 15 degree to 5 degree temperatures with a foot of snow on the ground at every red light.
- [51:18]
B
So, so the question.
- [51:20]
C
For money to get some drugs? Yeah. I mean, but how do you get.
- [51:24]
B
To think about, think about this, how do you get to that point? Because I, I mean I'm walking around New York City. It's, it's literally 2 degrees and there's, there's a guy on, on the concrete. He's covered up in a, in a, a quilt, like a blanket. It's like two degrees outside. And this guy's out of his mind. He was trying to stay warm as he could, but I mean he literally, he was addicted to drugs. And I'm looking at this, this young man and man, I just felt this compassion on this guy has gone down this road and, and what he has done is he is, he has chased the, the desire that is fleeting. It's, it's the one right here. The. Listen, the world is passing away along with its desires. Those desires are waning and you got to keep amping that thing up. You got to keep. I mean this guy, you know, he didn't start on the streets of New York City living under a blanket in two degree weather. This, this guy started as a, as an eight year old kid in somebody's home getting exposed to something that he abused, trauma, pornography, whatever it was. And that turned into maybe partying with his friends a little bit. Maybe, maybe he got drunk for the first time someone. Hey, you ever smoke weed? And, and then this just keeps on and on. And then you fast forward 10 years. Now he's 18 years old and he's literally living under a blanket in New York City, completely out of his mind. Why? Because he kept having to amp up the game to keep up with a desire that was fleeting. That is not the spirit, that is not the Holy Spirit, that is a death work, that is demonic and it is rooted in witchcraft. And we have to take this serious. And I think the people of God have to come up underneath the rule in the reign of Christ. And we got to be calling on a higher power. Thankfully we do have one that is a higher power. And that desire won't fleet over time. That desire will actually increase over time as we submit to the Spirit.
- [53:09]
A
Well, that's why I brought up Ephesians reading this parallel with this, because when he made that statement in the transition in chapter two and verse four when he said because of his great love, God who is rich in mercy, made us alive when we were dead in transgressions. And what the fascinating apocalypse that's revealed that he would talk about in Ephesians 3 is that that mystery of Christ, him coming, God coming to earth in human form and dying somehow made it available for us to die not only in a world and die to the world and being raised and then in essence overcoming the world, which he's going to get to in 1 John 5, overcoming the spiritual forces of evil. He did all that for us so that we could participate in that. And you can move into the light. All of a sudden the light can start shining.
- [54:07]
C
I like that you're continuing to go back to Ephesians and we are about out of time. But I wanted to, I've mentioned this before, but I want to keep bringing it up. This is why the context of scripture is so important. John was traditionally recognized as being an elder at the church in Ephesus. That's where he spent most of his time. So he would have been very familiar with this letter.
- [54:28]
A
Well, and I think this was somewhere around Ephesus where this house church was going to go down the rabbit hole.
- [54:35]
C
And so now he's writing this much later as a look back. Wrap it up.
- [54:39]
B
Yeah, two, two things real quick. Think about the end of that though. Jace, he took you out of the world, redeemed you from the world. But, but what are we going to be doing now as spirit filled agents of God? We're going to redeem the world. Yeah, like, like God's going to redeem the world through the, through the work of we. It's through the church going back to Ephesians, the manifold wisdom will be made known. And so the, the, the whole thing can be just wrapped up in the whole purpose of the letter. From the very beginning, which I want to just end with this. This is First John 1, verse 4. I read this this morning. I was like, why write all this? Like, what is the point that he's getting to? Here's the point, here's why he read it. We are writing these things. First John chapter one, verse four. We are writing these things. For this purpose so that our joy may be complete. The purpose of the letter here is that our joy may be complete, and our joy will be made complete by our participation in the life of Christ, by union with Christ himself and love as well.
- [55:37]
C
So we'll we'll pick it up here next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.