Ep 1293 | The Litmus Test for Identifying False Prophets Among Us & Leading Through Sacrifice

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1293 | The Litmus Test for Identifying False Prophets Among Us & Leading Through Sacrifice
Release Date: March 19, 2026

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Brief Overview

In this candid and heartfelt episode, the Robertson family (Phil, Al, Jase, Zach) delves into the timely and sobering topic of how Christians can identify false prophets and false teachers within the church and community. Drawing from scripture, their own life experiences, and a few lighthearted family anecdotes, they explore the "litmus test" for discernment, the dangers of spiritual pride, and the true marks of a Christlike leader—one who leads through sacrifice rather than self-interest. The episode is rich in relatable stories, practical insights, and scriptural grounding, offering guidance and encouragement for navigating faith amid confusion and loss.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Music, Influence, and the Idea of Shepherds

• Jase’s Reflection on Music and Influence
  • Begins with humorous banter about classic rock in their childhood (Pink Floyd’s "Brain Damage") and how music can be a metaphor for outside influences or “shepherds” in our lives, leading to the deeper spiritual question: Who or what shepherds you?
    • Quote (Jason, 03:20):
      "Everybody has a shepherd, because when Jesus said, ‘I am the shepherd’... you’re going to be shepherded by something or someone. I would go with the good one."

Storytelling, Attention, and Ministry Moments

• Jase’s Story About ‘Little Man’:
  • Shares a lighthearted family story about his four-year-old grandson captivating his class with an adventure story, underlining the power of storytelling and influence from a young age (07:14–09:19).
• Contrasting Ministry Encounters:
  • The family segues into reflections on taking opportunities to minister in unexpected situations—whether breaking up awkward yard work stories, fishing tales, or giving spontaneous encouragement to strangers.

Dealing with Grief and Spiritual Missteps

• Al’s Account of Neighbor’s Loss:
  • Al shares a poignant story after learning about the tragic loss of friends and a neighbor’s wife. The conversation turns serious as he describes an experience where a so-called spiritual leader made a deeply insensitive, false statement about suffering as “penance,” demonstrating the damage caused by spiritual malpractice.
    • Quote (Al, 19:52): "It made me so mad…to say everything that befalls a person is because God is making her pay penance. That’s just straight up falsehood."
• The Importance of Christian Presence in Suffering:
  • The brothers agree that rather than spouting spiritually insensitive clichés, Christians should embody compassion and presence, especially in suffering.

The Litmus Test for False Teachers

Scriptural Foundations: 1 John 4 and John 10

• Central Scriptures Discussed
  • 1 John 4:1-6: Discerning between “the spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.”
  • John 10:7-18: Jesus as the Good Shepherd, the distinction between the shepherd, hired hand, thief, and robber.
    • Quote (Jason, 34:07):
      "The hired hand is not the shepherd ... he abandons the sheep and runs away... cares nothing for the sheep."
• Key Insight:
  • The true test of shepherds/teachers: Are they laying down their lives for the flock (sacrificial leadership like Jesus), or are they self-serving, prideful, and using their position for personal gain?

Navigating Accusations of False Teaching

• Church History and Theological Disagreements:
  • Zach and Al recall how accusations of false teaching have sometimes been misused within church history to control or exclude, especially over secondary theological matters (e.g., teaching on grace).
    • Quote (Zach, 36:10):
      "It’s a real threat on one end. But then it’s also an accusation that is thrown around very loosely."
• The Real Litmus Test:
  • The heart and fruit of the leader/teacher—not just precise doctrine—is paramount. Are they elevating themselves or building up the body? Are they exhibiting Christlike love?
    • Quote (Zach, 42:24):
      "If you can’t say ‘I could be wrong,’ I get really nervous around you... The litmus test in Scripture is more about: How do they treat the body?"

Examples from Ezekiel 34 & Church Leadership

• Old Testament Warnings — Ezekiel 34, Jude 1, Isaiah 56

  • False shepherds feed themselves, neglect the flock, use people for gain.
    • Quote (Zach, 44:11):
      "A leader eats last. Not in Ezekiel 34. The shepherds are feeding themselves."

• Biblical Model of Leadership — 1 Peter 5

  • Peter addresses elders as equals, exhorting them not to lead for “shameful gain” and not to ‘domineer’ over others but to be examples.
    • Quote (Zach, 54:53):
      "When the chief Shepherd appears, you’ll receive an unfading crown of glory. The lead pastor? His name is Jesus."
  • The ultimate example is Jesus: no one takes his life, but he lays it down willingly.

The Challenge of Power and Sacrifice

• Power Structures vs. Servant Leadership

  • The family warns against prideful, controlling leadership and reminds listeners that Christlike leadership is marked by humility and service, not power or prosperity.
    • Quote (Jason, 47:03):
      "He must deny himself, which is the opposite of this narrative… Whoever loses his life for me and the Gospel will save it."

• Practical Signs of False/Selfish Leadership

  • Leaders who fatten themselves, who aren’t accountable, who can’t admit being wrong, or who exploit their people stand in contrast to the Good Shepherd.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Spiritual Influence:
  • "Everybody has a shepherd...you’re going to be shepherded by something or someone." — Jason (03:20)
• On the Damage of Bad Teaching:
  • "That’s just straight up falsehood." — Al (19:52)
• On Leadership:
  • "A leader eats last." — Zach (44:11)
  • "When the chief Shepherd appears, you’ll receive an unfading crown of glory. The lead pastor? His name is Jesus." — Zach (54:53)
• Summary of the Litmus Test:
  • "The criteria for a false teacher: They're not focused on Jesus and his words. They're not listening." — Jason (50:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:06 – 03:35] — Opening banter about music and the influence of shepherds in life
• [07:14 – 09:19] — Jase’s story about his grandson “Little Man” and storytelling as influence
• [19:40 – 21:56] — Al’s account of neighbor’s grief and anger at “false prophecy/teaching”
• [30:04 – 36:10] — In-depth scripture reading and analysis: 1 John 4 and John 10; marks of a true shepherd
• [36:10 – 41:30] — How accusations of “false teacher” are misused; historical church context
• [42:10 – 45:03] — Ezekiel 34 and characteristics of exploitative leadership; ‘shepherds who feed themselves’
• [47:03 – 50:23] — Mark’s gospel and Jesus’ model calling for self-denial and sacrificial leadership
• [51:53 – 54:53] — Zach recounts pastoral abuse in a church context; reading from 1 Peter 5 about humble leadership
• [54:53 – End] — Closing thoughts; summary on discernment and Christlike shepherding

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Tone and Language

Throughout, the Robertsons maintain their characteristic conversational, direct, and often humorous tone—even while addressing serious spiritual and practical issues. The episode is marked by warmth, honesty, and generosity of spirit, with each member sharing personal failures and lessons learned alongside scriptural wisdom.

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Summary Takeaway

The central insight is clear: The true test of spiritual leadership and teaching is not flawless doctrine alone, but Christlike self-sacrifice, humility, and love. The litmus test for false prophets and shepherds is whether they lead for themselves or for Jesus—and whether their lives and ministries reflect the Good Shepherd, who lays down his life for his flock.

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For further reflection, listeners are encouraged to revisit John 10, 1 John 4, Ezekiel 34, and 1 Peter 5, considering how these texts challenge all who would lead or teach in Christ’s name.

Transcript

[Jason]

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[Jason]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Al]

So welcome back to Unashamed. It's been an odd beginning for me and Maddie because we've just been watching it all happen. Maddie, Jace came in listening to Pink Floyd. Zach was listening to Elvis. Yeah.

[Zach]

Was. Well caught in a trap. I was caught in a trap.

[Al]

Suspicious Minds. I said that could have been the theme for our movie we're doing today.

[Jason]

I was actually doing research.

[Al]

Oh, you were researching.

[Jason]

Well, no, the song. Look, for years. Because this rock and roll vibe was thrust on us, not by choice, because my dad really loved classic rock. And so when we would be in the Duck Call Factory. I don't know, Al, if you ever visited that Duck call Factory.

[Al]

But when I. Jason, I was there. I was there when you were still trying to get out of your Pampers. Yeah.

[Zach]

You were peeing diaper. He was.

[Al]

Yeah, I. Trust me, I spent time in the.

[Zach]

I think Jace forgets that you basically raised him the first.

[Al]

He has no idea he's only alive because of me. I know he had a rough patch, but the man is only alive because of me.

[Jason]

I feel like, you know that part where all the machinery was. That's really where I hung out. And Phil would turn that music up so loud. But I never listened to the words. Never, never listened to them.

[Al]

So it's like we were young, too. So it didn't quite have the impact. Now that you're a.

[Jason]

But now as I'm older, I realize a lot of those songs were a cry for help in the world. Because I've been thinking about this, you know, how many times this world is mentioned, like the world hating you and the three aspects of the world, the cravings of simple man, the boasting of what they do and say, and the lust of the eyes. All of those things. And so today we were talking about false teachers last time we were here. And I think we tend to think they're always way off somewhere, but they're among us. I mean, you don't realize it. It's camouflage. It's hard to spot them. So anyway, I was thinking that everybody has a shepherd because when Jesus said, I am the shepherd and I'm listening to this series from John Tyson, Zach's buddy, I would say our friend, but he was only on Zach's podcast after it was my idea and it's really focus on Jesus. I'm listening to that series and their, their sister church, they're doing a series on the questions of Jesus. So I have to listen to that every Sunday no matter what, because I love it. But anyway, I said all that to say it made me think of that, that Pink Floyd song, brain Damage, because that little phrase where he said there's someone in my head, but it's not me. And I was like, what was that song really about? Because that's the only line I remember because I was, I was had that idea of everybody has a shepherd, everybody's being influenced by something. So I broke it down. But what I didn't realize is they wrote that song about. I think their lead singer had a nervous breakdown, a mental breakdown. And so they wrote a song about it. And so if AI is correct, it was kind of due to fame and isolation and just the world trying to conform you. That's what got my attention. So I thought, oh, I want to check those words out. So. And I think you'll see that in the song. But anyway, that was the story on the song. What I was going to tell you is because we, since we're spirit filled, spirit led disciples of Jesus, it's our responsibility to introduce the true shepherd, which is he referred to himself, Al, as the good shepherd. No underestimate that word. Good. Yeah, because you're going to be shepherded by something or someone. I would go with the good one. And so we declare that. So I had a little story I was going to tell you this really excited me. And I don't know what it means, but maybe y' all can discern. I have a picture, but I can't show it because it's involving Little man and I protect his identity. So they had this thing at their little school, and it was which I found this fascinating four year olds. And they were to get up, here's the class project, and share an adventure. I thought, man, that's pretty ambitious for four year olds. I mean, I actually asked Missy. I was like, they actually think this will work? And so I didn't know what happened. I just knew. Missy said, well, yeah, I got to come up with something because it's tomorrow. So she sends me a picture of him going into school. But he had a poster board up and it said Little man and J Rock's Bear Adventure. It had a title. And Missy had asked me for all the pictures that, you know, I take of me and him. And she had four different pictures of me and Little man with this bear. You're like, with a bear. Ooh, do tell. Well, my brother, I think I shared this story when Corey was there, my brother built one of the largest statues of a bear on his property.

[Zach]

When you say built, you like, like a carving.

[Jason]

He.

[Al]

He does have carvings.

[Jason]

He had it.

[Al]

This one's metal.

[Jason]

This thing is iron. It's an iron bear with claws. Because when I shared. When Corey was on the podcast, it got Jason. He actually got me. And I have two scars in my lower back region. I mean, I bled like I'd been shot with two arrows from the claws. Because Little man almost tripped and fell. And I reached to get him and when I straightened my back, I just. Which in his mind, he thought, run, run. The bear got it. Yeah, the bear got me. He's like, mean old bear. So anyway, so I'm telling you all this. This is where the story gets good. So it has the pictures. And so she later sent me a text of a picture that the teacher had taken with Little man in front of the students. It was just him, he was holding the poster and he's talking. He's like, mouth open, middle sentence. Here's what I found fascinating. There's the classroom. They're all sitting on the floor in a semicircle. And these kids, when I'm saying, are hanging on every word. I blew up the picture and looked at each kid, mouths are open, eyes are wide.

[Al]

And I said, he's creating another Jace.

[Zach]

Another Jace.

[Jason]

I thought, I've done something right here. This kid is telling a story and he has managed to do, which I think the teacher took the picture to say, look at this, because she had probably never experienced that the entire year. It was just full attention from a classroom of four year olds.

[Zach]

That's funny.

[Jason]

I thought it was incredible.

[Al]

It was pretty amazing.

[Jason]

I have no idea what he said

[Al]

because we go, well, I'm sure he did like you. He just made up most of it. He just, he's learned now how to just spread it. We may have to add Silas to Little Man. Silas to this young man.

[Jason]

So now I've been doing a theme for the grandkids and Little Man. Now when I do an adventure, I film it, you know, like in edit, and then I send it if I'm not with them, you know, so they. Yeah, so Missy's visited them. So she, she gave me the report. She said, I'll. I shared it last night to her because yesterday I caught a bunch of fish at Willie's, which was. I felt a little bad because he was working on his place, you know, still cleaning up from the ice storm burning, and I'm out there catching fish. He never came over. He just looked at me. I know what he was thinking, you sorry rascal. I'm out here working, catching all my fish.

[Al]

Well, we talked about that on the podcast, though. He does love doing that. He has since he was a kid. So I think he, he, he's enjoyed. I mean, obviously it's been a lot of work, but he, he likes that kind of stuff. He used to clean up all of mom's stuff for her. Because, dad, you know, we, we talked about his philosophy on yard work, which, you know, he said the frost will get it.

[Jason]

And he didn't mind yard work. He didn't like lawnmowers, Al.

[Al]

He didn't do lawn. He didn't do yard work either. Jay Z, he wasn't into that.

[Jason]

Well, it was a problem with cutting scissors, razors, lawnmower blades. There was a pattern there. That's right. There's no cutting.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Now if you want to build a big fire out there, no problem. But don't cut it.

[Al]

We've been talking on the podcast recently about jealousy. We're talking about brothers Cain and Abel in the Bible. I have to say, the only time I've ever. I don't really struggle with jealousy except for one small thing, and that's you, dad. And sigh. Have always had a metabolism that seems to be unworldly or something supernatural. You've always been able to just stay trim.

[Jason]

And I've never figured it out.

[Al]

Burn the fat. I know it. And so, unfortunately for me and Willie and Jeff, we seem to get some mom's DNA. But I don't want to blame her or throw her under the bus because I've tried every diet. I've tried the Paleo, the Weight Watchers, the fasting, nutrisystem. And you know the drill, right? You lose some weight, then you gain it back, and then you go really good, and then you go really bad. And so we've done the Yo Yo. But now I finally found something that works. It's a lifestyle change. It's really helped me. It's PhD weight loss. Here's me at the beginning of the program. Here's me now 75 to 80 pounds, depending on the week. Less. So obviously I'm doing better, feeling better off most of my meds. I'm exercising regularly. No more CPAP machine, which is a great blessing as well. So you can do the same thing. But you got to call them and you got to jump in. If you call right now, they'll give you two free weeks in the program and they'll pay for your food so you can finally see real results without all the trial and error. If you're done with the yo yo dieting and you want clarity, call PhD Weight Loss now and mention Al. No more guessing. Just answers 864-644-1900 and say Ow. That's 864-644-1900. Or you can visit my PhD Weight Loss dot com.

[Zach]

I'm actually in the process of getting out of doing my own yard work. I. I've done mine for years. Y' all, you guys all made fun of me. But now I finally, I finally decided this past week. Jill's like, it's just, I'm not good at it. Our yard looks like a junkyard. So she's talked me, I'm going to pay somebody for the first time this year. They come out and there's landscape, the whole thing.

[Jason]

There's a difference in landscaping and yard work and then throwing a bunch of junk in it.

[Zach]

Yeah, I'm going to have the whole thing cleaned up. I ordered, I'm ordering some trees from our sponsor, fast growing trees, but I got those coming. The guy said, I just think, here's the price. It doesn't include the plants. So I'm ordering my own plants, but he's going to do the rest. So I've got a guy coming out next week.

[Al]

So. Well, let's face it that you've done it because you're you're cheap and you don't want to spend the money on it, which. And you know.

[Zach]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Al]

That's part of it.

[Jason]

Sounds like to me, what you describe had nothing to do with managing a lawn.

[Zach]

You just.

[Jason]

You're doing what most. I think, deep down, you're wanting to be a redneck, which is one of the qualifications is you got to put a bunch of junk in your yard.

[Al]

Yeah, it is true. Or stuff on your porch. And that's true. You got to get you a couple old appliances that don't work anymore and

[Jason]

take one of your cars and put it up on blocks and just leave.

[Zach]

Yeah, well, I mean, truth be told, when I lived. Whenever I lived at the. At the golf course, the one that. When I hired Willie for that brief period of time, which I'd love to say, he used to work for me, we were burning trash in the backyard on the 18th green, me and Willie, big old bonfire. His coffers are coming. Like, what. What in the world has happened? So we represented.

[Jason]

Well, yeah, I'm not opposed to that, I think. I mean, Missy threw a big fit because every year I would burn the leaves in the yard. And she's like, well, there's big old black. You're staining our yard. I'm like, I'm fertilizing for free. Matter can't be created or destroyed unless you're God. I'm just turning that into fertilizer. And it'll come back. Just give it a minute.

[Al]

And basically, that's how the Almighty's always done it. You know, he clears land by the lightning strike, you know, and fires happen.

[Jason]

And then you love fires happen. It's showing you what new creation is all about. Oh, I preached her a sermon.

[Al]

You had to go book chapter verse on her.

[Jason]

Yeah, it's borderline. Was close that I'm even here. I had. This morning, I'm studying, Missy's out of town, and all of a sudden I hear these two guys talking really loud. And I look back there and they're. They're cleaning my pool, but it's two young boys and they're talking so loud. I thought, well, if I'd have been asleep, they would have awakened me. And so I looked at the clock because I thought, I mean, they're on my property. I realized they're doing a job for me. But they were like being really loud. And I thought, this is kind of weird. So I cracked the door to see if I could hear any four letter words, because I thought if I hear one. It's one thing to be loud. Cause I just thought if I was doing their job, I would think I'm on somebody else's property. I would show a certain amount of decor. But I cracked the door and they were talking about dogs. And I never heard a four letter word. But if I heard one Al, I was fixed to give a sermon. You see what I mean? I was going to walk out there.

[Al]

You had one ready?

[Jason]

I had it ready. And I thought, well. And so then I went and got ready to come here, put my clothes on, and I said, you know what, I think I'm going to do it anyway. And so I walked out there and they were gone.

[Al]

You know, it's, it's funny because you talk about every opportunity about ministry. And this, this whole section we've been in, in First John 4 has been about. You'd mentioned false teachers. It's been about. There's definitely people are trying to lead them astray and John's trying to get them, you know, back to the central message of Jesus being the Messiah. But we've been, this whole week we've been down there in Gulf Shores and you never know. You go back and forth. And so we have friends down there, but you never know when ministry opportunities are going to be there. And I've shared the gospel with a lot of people and had a lot of Jesus conversations. But this week, two of our friends were died in a plane crash Saturday night. And some other dear friends were here at the house when they got the call that something was wrong and we didn't know what it was. They left suddenly to go to be with the wife and we didn't find out till later that night. But it's just been, you know, the agony and grief of a sudden death like that in a community and in families. And I've dealt with a lot through the years being a pastor, but it never prepares you for that moment of shock and grief at the same time. And it's really been tough. But so we go back to our old house last night. We're looking at some stuff there because we're selling it. And I see my neighbor in the yard and so I go over and I said, hey, how are things going? And he said, you don't know, do you? And I was like, no, no. What? And he said his, his wife had passed. She, she is, was paralyzed and she had had a lot of health issues, but I had no idea. And so it was like we'd already been dealing with this all weekend and I was just so stunned. I said, I am so sorry, Jeff. And so we're talking. He's not a real religious guy, and. But she. She was, you know, a believer, and. And the sweetest person. But he was telling. So he told me about how it all went down, and he was telling me about. He said, well, you know, she had this lady preacher. That's the way he described her. Her minister, I guess, who came to see her and pray for her. And I was like, well, you know, she's into that, so that's fine. So he's. He's telling me this story, and. And he said. He said. But then she said, God gave me a word. And he, He. He. She's saying this to his wife. And he. She said, your penance is now over. Because, you know, she's been paralyzed for 10 years from a doctor's mistake, and there was a lawsuit. It's just a terrible situation. And, I mean, it set him, my neighbor, off. He just. He told her. He said, all right, you're done. You're out. You're out of here. And she said, well, I'm not through praying. He said, no, you're through. He said, you know, this woman is the most amazing woman, the toughest woman in the world and the sweetest person in the world. And you're talking about her paying her penance. And, I mean, he literally ran her out of the room, of course. And it made me so mad, because it's what you're talking about with this false stuff about how do we know whether a spirit is. Is the spirit of God or some spirit of falsehood. But in. No matter what your deal was and what you think in that moment, as someone who supposedly is a leader first, as a witness to him who's not a believer, but also to this woman who's. Who is near death. That's the last thing you should ever say.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

Whether you thought it was true or not. But, but, but, but one is not, you know, somehow to say that, you know, everything that befalls this person is somehow because God is making her pay a penance. And now he's told you that it's over. And it just. It made me angry because I was in that moment trying to provide something for this man who had lost his wife, who I know is. Is mad at God, had been mad at years because of what happened to her in the beginning. And so I've been working this relationship because, you know, I love him. He's my neighbor. He looks after my place. And one person comes in like this, with the. With some kind of whatever that was and can just train wreck, you know, someone else trying to do the work of God. It just. And it makes me furious at falsehood and to see, as you said, Jay's earlier, that. And it's among supposedly the people of God. And this woman was an amazing example of Christian faith in spite of terrible things that had happened to her and this man. And I told him again last night, I talk about you when I speak around the country. I said, I know you don't. You don't believe yet. I said, but. But you are an inspiration because you could have just stuck your wife in a home and then went off and lived your life, but you didn't. You have taken care of her for 10 years. And I mean, I'm talking about taking care of her. I said, that's an inspiration. I said, you taught me things, Jeff. And so, you know, but that's what you do as a believer, you know, your. Your role is to help people and help them find Christ, not to just say stupid things that are ungodly, you know, So I don't know. It just incensed me that all week we've been doing this, and he told me this story, and you. You said that about falsehood. And I was like, that is just straight up falsehood. Yeah. And. And inappropriate. On top of that, Jase, you got two little, small dogs.

[Jason]

Don't be deceived. I know they seem. They were small. They seem small. They might weigh three or four pounds apiece, but if you heard them in the middle of the night, you would think, oh, stay away.

[Al]

Fierce, fierce.

[Jason]

Unfortunately, there's the one that has good manners, also has instincts. The other. Yeah, I'm not sure what to say.

[Al]

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[Jason]

Right?

[Al]

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[Jason]

Oh, they do it. I just start rustling the bag.

[Al]

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[Jason]

Well, it's. Yeah, it's hard to know. I think we live in our own little bubbles. But that made me think of what happened to me on my last event when I was telling y' all about going to surprise, Arizona. It was such a weird trip, which I didn't tell y' all this part of the trip, But I had. When I got to the airport that morning, I was in line, and about three people in front of me, there's this nice woman. Well to do. And I looked and saw something moving on her head. And I was like, what is that? And it was a large insect. And there's two guys in front of me. And I thought, what are we going to do here? Of course we're all looking, because I looked up at them. They're looking at the same thing I'm looking at, but they're not moving. And I thought, this woman's by herself, obviously, because nobody is right next to her. And I thought, you know what? I think sometimes you just got to stand up and be a man. So I started walking toward her, and I said, don't panic. But she didn't turn around. And I got. You know, I was getting closer. I was like, don't panic. So she turned and looked at me. Of course, now I've lost the visual on the insect. I said, don't panic. There is an insect in your hair. And I'm going to get it out for you right now. Just remain calm and look on her face. She turned her head around, and I just surgically went in there with my fingers and grabbed the insect. What's funny about this? Because she was trying to look at it. I was like, you don't want to see it. And it flew in your hair. I was like, it's not because you're not keeping yourself up. I was, like, trying to deal with the. Because now everyone's watching me. Remove said Insect from her hair. Here's the funny part. I go to the trash can and I, like, flip it in the trash can. Well, it just takes flight. And everybody went, ah. I guess all the women did that. I didn't hear any guys in that. So I'm just saying that was a very awkward thing. And I only tell you that story because when I got to the event, it's a men's event, but we walk through the back door and there's about 30 women who are cooking all the food. And I thought. And I said something. I'm like, here's where all the real work's happening. Y' all came up here to serve 1500 men. And I mean, look, they were sweating. And you could just tell it was a workhouse. So I was trying to encourage them, but one of the ladies kind of started following me, and she said, I hate to ask this, but you are my husband's favorite, and I'd like to take a picture, you know. But when she said that, I thought. I said, well, what's that? He didn't win you over? Because she said, you're my husband's favorite. Yeah. I was like, he didn't win you over? And she said, well, he died two weeks ago. And, oh, well, now all of a sudden, I was like. Because I was making a joke. And she got kind of teared up. And then I just said, and you're up here serving two weeks later. I mean, it just kind of hit me. I thought, wow. And so I said, well, I'll tell you what, before we take a picture. So I just said a prayer with her. And of course, she started crying. I got a little emotional myself. And of course, I'm with the group of pastors. He's putting this on. And they weren't aware that this had happened, which was kind of weird. But it is a big church. And so they're like, we're on it. But I thought, wow. You know, it just. It really made me think, like, I told you those two stories in contrast, which it was. One was awkward, but the other was awkward with way more ramifications, you know? And it moved me because I always try to find the one. There's usually one person on these trips that you think God lined this up, and I think that was it. So.

[Al]

Well, and there's a. You know, there's a certain. When something happens suddenly like that, there's a sort of a process that people have to go through to accept it and to. And so it's a day by day Thing and people are. There are people gifted at helping people get there. And. But it's. It's tough. I mean, it's tough when you don't get a chance to say goodbye.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Al]

You know, exactly.

[Jason]

I mean, wasn't like this woman was older. I mean, she's a lot younger than me, but I didn't ask for the details, but I thought, right, man, what a warrior. She's. She's up here when.

[Al]

She probably was there because he did love it, and she probably already agreed to do that. And. And she was doing that to honor him. I would have bet. I would bet if, you know, it sounds like. So stuff like that impresses me about people anyway. The. The idea of just able to. To see, you know, Christ and to see the idea of honor and legacy through the pain of losing somebody, man, it's just so hard. You know, that's. That's the moment of truth. I mean, look, death is never friendly.

[Jason]

You know, my whole point about saying that is. Is people need a shepherd and we're followers of Jesus and we represent that. And. Yeah, but. But life's messy. I mean, you know, it takes courage to have awkward conversations and be vulnerable enough to be available and have conversations with people.

[Zach]

Hey, by the way, I want to remind everybody too, that we are doing another course with Hillsdale, which is incredible. It's on ancient Christianity. So if you want to know about the history of our faith, this is an incredible course. It's free to. You definitely want you guys to sign up. And if you finish the course, we're going to have a drawing for. Hopefully we're going to have a little surprise for those who finish the course may have an opportunity to be entered into a drawing, but you can sign up for [e-mail] I wanted to read this.

[Jason]

Yeah, I know we're in First John 4. I mean, maybe we should read that first. But it made me think of this John 10, and I wanted to remind you of what he had written before. But in First John 4, where he says. So he talks about the spirit of the Antichrist, we read that, I think in verse two.

[Al]

Yeah, we read one through six.

[Jason]

Yeah. So when he gets to those last couple of verses and he brings up this idea of world, it's four times in four and five. It says, you dear children are from God and have overcome them. Which is another word he uses a lot in first John because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world, which he had already defined what the world's all about in chapter 2, 15, 17. But he also said in verse 13 of chapter 3, do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. And that is directly from John 15. So then it says, they are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. Do you see? You see the point about someone is shepherding you? Yeah, we are from God. Which I think is an interesting phrase if you're. If you're kind of outside the context of it, because you immediately think, well, aren't they from God too? But you got to remember this is all from kind of the context of we're children of God, chapter two, 28. And we do what's right because we've been born of him. So it's in the context of this new birth. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us, but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood. And so, you know, I talked about that Jesus being the door from John 10. But then he goes on to say in verse 11 of chapter 10, he says, because you remember when he said, the thief in verse 10 comes only to steal and kill and destroy, I have come that they may have life and have it to the full. Well, who's the thief? Who are these thieves? Now, in this context, I believe it's these religious leaders who. Same ones that got mad in John 9 because Jesus healed on the Sabbath. Remember all that?

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And when you Throw in Ezekiel 34, you see this prediction of these false shepherds being made right through God producing the ultimate shepherd. It's a fascinating read. I think we read it when we were in John 10. And so that is the groundwork, for I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So there's kind of three categories for false shepherds. The robber, the thief, and the hired hand. And the hired hand is not necessarily evil, but it makes you. You know, Jesus has a way of making you think, what's the problem with the hired hand? Well, he's only doing this to get paid.

[Al]

Yeah. His heart's not in it.

[Jason]

Yeah. He don't care about the sheep. If a wolf comes, what's he doing? He's getting the sheep in between him and the wolf because they're not valuable.

[Al]

Right, right, right.

[Jason]

I mean, that's the point. The hired hand is not the shepherd. Who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. Jesus again, I am the good shepherd. And this goes in with where we're at in first John 4, 6 about listening to voices. I know my sheep, and my sheep know me, just as the Father knows me. And I know the Father. To me, this gets heavy with that statement because he's comparing our relationship to Jesus with his and the Father. And the whole reason I wanted to read this is the next couple verses because then he's going to get to this love which is going to be introduced in first John 4. Then he says verse 16, I have other sheep that are not of this pen. Every scholar would tell you that that's the Gentile world, that's us. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice. And there shall be one flock and one shepherd. And now look what he does. Look where he goes. After we have this relationship, just as I and the Father about listening to the voice, knowing each other. Then verse 17, the reason my Father loves me. Then he brings up the love idea is that I lay down my life only to take it up again. And this is one of my favorite verses in the Bible, verse 18. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord, which is the definition of love, God's love. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my father.

[Zach]

I was just thinking about. You think about false shepherds and false teachers, which is a real threat. Here's my question, because we all grew up in a. I remember when we were kids that that accusation was thrown around quite a bit. In fact, I remember my dad was called a false teacher by a lot of people that we would went to church with. And so it's kind of a weird thing because it's a real threat on one end. But then it's also an accusation that is thrown around very loosely. You know, when somebody's off on their theology, you know, you throw out the heretic label or, you know, the. Or the. You're the. I call them the heretic police. And they're just. But you remember, like if you got outside of the line of the Church of Christ back in the early days, teaching things like grace, they would be taught the gospel of grace. They would have called you a false teacher and they would have marked you they actually use that term, you know, he's been marked and things like that. So I don't know, how do you guys. How do y' all kind of decipher what is the difference between someone who's been called a false teacher and someone who is actually a false teacher?

[Al]

Therein lies the whole issue. And that's why I was saying, you get into it with. Over the course of 2000 years since these things were written, you had plenty of opportunity for people to continue down both false roads and then also just prideful places where everybody's a false teacher. I mean, there. There are some whole groups of people, some churches that their whole mission is to call out everybody else in the religious world who's wrong. I mean, we see these groups out there that they kind of make a name for themselves, and that goes against the whole spirit of the entire Holy Spirit in the Bible, because you're not. You're never winning anybody. All you're doing is trashing everybody. So, you know, it can't be from God. So. Well, you know, Yeah, I think they

[Jason]

don't care for the sheep, that when people are getting hurt, doesn't matter that there's, you know, those three things of the world that won that pride of life. There's some people in powerful positions in churches that have this pride, as in, you know, we're the only ones going to make it. And I mean, whoever's around, around this power structure.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And it's like that kind of attitude seems to be in contrast to what Jesus is describing about, I'm the door, all are welcome, I'm the shepherd, I lay down my life for the sheep. I mean, he's treating the sheep as valuable. And it seems like most people in power, and I'm talking about just not in the church in any powerful role, tend to think the sheep are expendable. As long as I maintain my power and control.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

And part of it, Zach, is keeping it at the simple. You remember when we started this conversation, we went back, Jason, back to Galatians 5, and we said, you know, look, it's pretty. When we talk about the Holy Spirit, I mean, the Bible keeps it fairly simple. It's gotten complicated from man. But the Bible is pretty simple. You got a list here of sinful behavior, and then you got a list of fruit from the Spirit. And if you can keep that, those contrasts there, that's pretty much what you can see. And know what we've done is. And I mentioned this when we talked about it back then, we. We create These whole doctrinal things of sinfulness that, you know, you can take the Bible and twist it into whatever you want to. And that's what a lot of people have done. And then you got all these rules that, that are. It's just like what the Pharisees did. You know, you add the add ons, I call them, and then that's who they get after people with. And that's why all of us know that so much of our audience we had, we've had to spend a lot of time trying to tell people and encourage people to find community, you know, outside of just this podcast, because we know we all need that in our families. I've seen it this week, that the need for community. But at the same time, how many people have told y'? All, because they certainly have told me that they've had so many bad experiences in churches and, and with the leadership of churches and just, you know, terrible situations. The, the one guy told me, he said, I love Jesus, but I loathe the church. And I was like, that made me so sad because I've. The church has done so much good for me. So, you know, it's. But he's. It's what you're talking about, Zach. Those experiences are what has hardened the heart of many people.

[Zach]

Well, I think that when you, the throw the label out there is super dangerous, particularly if it's, if the, if the accusation is they have the wrong theology or whatever you could consider to be the right doctrine and then they're off on a particular subject, then you just, I mean, just come after them with everything you have, calling them names. I mean, we've all received these comments from even the people that listen to this podcast before. Not many, but we do receive some. And that's why we always kind of caveat. I could be wrong. I mean, like, this is what.

[Jason]

Yeah, you can't defend these people because to me, that's not being Christlike.

[Zach]

No, but my point is, if that's the litmus test for a false teacher, then we're all excluded because nobody has 100% correct theology. If you, if you do, I'd like to know who you are, because I'll, I'll follow what you're doing if you can convince me that you're. You're 100% correct in your interpretation of the scripture. But there is like part of scripture is, you know, does. God doesn't just spell it out, everything out for us. And I think that's intentional, by the way. But I think you mentioned were you in Ezekiel, you said, Was that Ezekiel 34?

[Jason]

Ezekiel 34. But I'm going to push back on one thing you're saying. You said no one has 100% theology. Correct. But there are people who think they do.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

So that's just a fact.

[Zach]

Well, those are the ones I get really nervous about. If you can't say I could be wrong, then I get really nervous around you. And I'm probably not going to follow you, to be honest with you. But I will say this. The litmus test for me, and I think the litmus test in Scripture is more about how do they treat the body. Great passage, Ezekiel 34. It's shepherds who get fat on the offering of others. They feed themselves. They're not even looking at the people around them. One of the. My friends who was a major in the Army Rangers, he was just telling me this last week, invited us over for dinner. Him and his wife cooked this amazing meal for us. And he was telling me this story one time of when one of his superiors got in line and ate before his men ate. And they were in Afghanistan somewhere. And my buddy went up there and kind of broke protocol and he essentially rebuked his superior for eating before his men ate. And he said, you don't do that. A leader does not eat before his men eat. The eater, the leader eats last. And I thought, man, what a good picture of a shepherd. A shepherd eats last. Not in Ezekiel 34, the shepherds are feeding themselves. There's also a passage in Jude 1 that kind of echoes this. It says, this is Jude 1:12. These are hidden reefs at your love feast, as they feast with you without fear. Shepherds feeding themselves. Or again in Isaiah 56, the dogs have a mighty appetite. They never have enough. But they are shepherds who have no understanding. They have all turned to their own ways, each to his own gain. I think that's the caveat. So when you. When you are looking at ministry leaders and you're looking at teachers and you're looking at shepherds, look at their ministry, look at the fruit of their life. Is, are they elevating themselves at the expense of the body? Are they using people? That's one of the reasons why the prosperity gospel is such a dangerous. And that is a heretical gospel. Give to me, you know, and I'm going to go buy an airplane with your money and. But give to me to prove that you are, you know, that you're loved by God or that you want to be blessed by God. And then that person, then accumulates all that wealth. I mean, that is a shepherd feeding themselves. And as a shepherd in the church that I serve at, that is a very sobering warning that I constantly think about. Like, I do not want to be caught up in that category of these guys in Ezekiel 34. I don't want to be that guy.

[Jason]

Well, I want to say this because you made me think. A couple podcasts we ago, we talked about when Peter makes this profound statement that you're the Son of God, and all of a sudden, that sowed the seed for who would be the greatest among them. And then a few verses later, when Jesus outlined the plan, I'm going to be arrested, rejected, die, be buried, come back. And then Peter's like, now. Which, you know, when you look at the Greek language on all that, it's literally like he got in front of Jesus saying, I'm going to stop you. And he's like, get behind me, Satan, because you have the things of the mind. The things you're focused on are coming from men, humans, and not God. Remember that. Well, then in Mark's account. Account, you know, you made me think of it kind of goes along with what we're talking about in Mark's account. Let's see, I wrote this down somewhere.

[Zach]

I took a picture of it.

[Jason]

You think, well, why did Peter. Why did he get that wrong on what the Son of God was supposed to look like? Because he just said he. And he was a revelation from God himself. Jesus said that. Why was he so wrong? Because he thought that the Messiah, here they are under Roman rule, was going to liberate them. They were after freedom. And this was in the Questions of Jesus sermon that I was talking about.

[Zach]

I heard.

[Jason]

And because they want the power.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And they want to prosper.

[Zach]

They're.

[Jason]

They have a power over them. And their whole idea of Messiah. If you have on your mind the things of men, it kind of looks like that. First John 2:15, you're like, well, we want to be free. We want to have the power to do what we want. We want to prosper, but. And we want to be honored. So we want to have this oppression lifted, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a physical. You're looking at the physical world. And so in Mark's account, when Jesus responds to that, it's the same story. 8:33, When Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter, get behind me, Satan. You did not have in mind the things of God, but things of men. All right, but then watch Then he called the crowd to him, along with his disciples. He thought, okay, let's get everybody. Huddle up. Disciples, crowd, listen. If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself, which is the opposite of this narrative, that whatever caused Peter to say that's not going to happen. He must take up his cross and follow me. Whoever wants to save his life will lose it, because that's what he just said. I'm going to be rejected. I'm going to be arrested. And just like John 10, I'm going to give my life, willingly save his life or lose it. But whoever loses his life for me in the Gospel will save it. And so then here's the question. Here's a question Jesus asked. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world and yet forfeit his very being or soul? There's a good Jesus question. Yeah, it is, because I'm tying it in with the world Peter had in his mind. We want all this for now, and look, nothing's changed. I mean, even look at the nation of Israel, they're still looking for that. Freedom, honor. But any country, you know, that's the goal. And so you say, well, what did Jesus, what was his point? He asked another question. If anyone is ashamed of me, in my words, I mean, that's the name of this podcast. In this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with his powerful angels. So I wrote this down because you had the four things that was in the mind of Peter that you freedom for the nation, power for the nation, prosperity, honor. And then Jesus answers with arrested, rejected, suffering. He had another word, but I put humiliation, because he was talking about the death on the cross. It wasn't just that he died on a cross. They were humiliating him, not honoring him on the cross. And I think that's the difference in mindset. But my point is when he says, he didn't just say, if anyone is ashamed of me, that's one thing. He's the shepherd. We know his voice, he knows us. But it says of me and my words. I think the criteria number one for a false teacher is they're not focused on Jesus and his words. They're not listening.

[Zach]

Here's another key aspect of it. Let me pull this up real quick. I'm thinking about it. This is in, I think first or second Peter. I think first. I think it's First Peter five that because this is an I, this is a description, it's kind of an Interesting passage about shepherds and elders. And I say this. I'll tell you a story around this. When I. I was hit. I hit this verse one time when I had a lunch with a guy and he wanted me to. This is first Peter five. He wanted me to join his church and to be an elder. And we had been attending, but I was like, I don't. We just started attending. I was like, I don't really know a lot about your church yet. And it was a small church. And I just said, let me. Let me sit for a little bit. And the more I got involved in this church, I realized that this guy had built this thing around his personality, and everybody in the church was dependent on him. And so we went out to lunch and he basically said to me, he said, hey, I really need your help. He said, every Moses needs his Aaron. And I was like, ooh, oh,

[Al]

that

[Zach]

one didn't sit well. I said, well, let me stop you right there. I said. I said, I ain't nobody's Aaron. I said, but on the flip side, I don't want to be anybody's Moses either. And I said, I don't think that's what biblical eldership looks like. He said, well, God called me to plant this church. He gave me a vision and all this. I say, no, no, no. And this is common language, by the way. But I don't believe the Bible teaches God doesn't get. There's no, like, hierarchy in the priesthood, right? No, the priesthood of believers like you didn't get any special vis. I don't have access to. I got access to the same word of God you have access to. And I. And I said, I won't say his name. I said, you've set this church up where it is ripe for pastoral abuse. And consequently, two months later, that he was arrested for abusing someone in the church. But this is the verse I read to him. I said, notice how what happens when Peter, who had apostolic authority? People debate this, but I don't believe apostolic secession continued. I think once they laid hands, the people they laid hands on, after that generation, you know, that type of authority was gone. So when Peter writes, When he writes a letter, it's called scripture, right? So this is from first Peter to think about him as having this authority, but listen to how he addresses the elders. He said, I exhort the elders among you as a fellow elder. So Peter comes down off of his apostolic authority when he's addressing the elders and the shepherds of the church. You see him, he's coming Off. Off of his platform, so to speak. And he's coming down to the level of the elders. He's. I'm addressing you as a fellow elder. And then he just exhorts them to be ready. He said, as a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed. Shepherd, the flock of God that is among you exercise oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you, not for shameful gain. There's that. Don't feed yourselves and get fat. That's not the point. But eagerly. Not domineering over those that you're in charge of, but being examples of the flock. And this. I love this part. And when the chief shepherd appears, you'll receive an unfading crown of glory. I love the fact that the way Peter addresses the fellow elders, he flattens that authority structure out. And then he says, we're not here to get fat. We're here to actually prepare the body for when the chief shepherd, the lead pastor, comes. There's a lead pastor? His name is Jesus. When he comes and says so then what does the shepherd look like? That's not a false teacher or a false shepherd. He looks a lot like Jesus. What does Jesus look like? It's the verse you started with. What did Jesus say? Nobody takes my life. I lay it down. I lay it down by my own will. So a biblical shepherd doesn't look like someone who is consuming from the body. He actually looks like someone who's laying down his life for the body. Sounds a whole lot like Jesus. That's what a biblical shepherd is.

[Al]

I think that's good. That's a good word to finish on because we're out of time and I think that's what John is doing. By the way, Zach in first, second, third, John, he is speaking to them as an elder as well, and that's why he's making these points. So we'll get into it again next time. I'm not ashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast and don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.