Ep 1294 | The Robertsons Respond to ‘Heretic’ Accusations & Why Faith Debates Are Essential These Days

Summary

Unashamed with the Robertson Family — Episode 1294 Summary

Title: The Robertsons Respond to ‘Heretic’ Accusations & Why Faith Debates Are Essential These Days
Date: March 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and candid episode, the Robertson family responds directly to recent criticism labeling them as "heretics" and explores the importance of open theological dialogue within Christian communities. The conversation dovetails into a deep dive on ancient Christianity, drawn from their shared Hillsdale College course, examining the pivotal historical and cultural backdrops of the faith—especially the time between the Old and New Testaments and the rise of Jesus against the complex landscape of Jewish and Greco-Roman history. The result is an insightful, often humorous, and always unashamed discussion of faith, tradition, and the need for grace when wrestling with difficult questions.

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Responding to Accusations & The Value of Open Debate

Addressing Hate Mail & 'Heretic' Labels

• [01:32] Christian: Brings up critical emails from listeners, including one calling him a “borderline heretic” and referring to chaos in his understanding of scripture.
• [02:05] Criticism is also aimed at John Luke for his hobby of playing Dungeons & Dragons, called "advocating for demonic activity."
• [03:08] Christian (gentle rebuke):

  "To shut things down like that is not healthy... I could be wrong, but to essentially personal attacks and shaming people for having what you perceive to be a difference of opinion... is dangerous."

• [04:59] John Luke:

  "I'm super pro critical comments and people looking critically at what other people are saying... [but] argue the idea from the facts and not attack the person."

• The family emphasizes the value of asking questions—even when theological answers are elusive—arguing that an environment where questions aren’t welcome drives many young people from the church.
• [05:35] Al:

  "Grace covers everything, even as we're struggling through our theology. You have to be able to have that... Jesus was the master of questions."

• [08:33] Christian (on Internet culture):

  "I can't be mad at Frank... I did troll Christian, so I can't come at you too hard."

Memorable Moment

• [08:45] Al (humorous):

  "It took me a long time to figure out the difference between a heretic and a hairy tick. For years I thought Jase was a hairy tick."

Theological Disagreement and the Spirit of Grace

• The group distinguishes between true heretical teaching and honest wrestling with doctrine.
• They caution against using the word “heretic” too quickly and celebrate the diversity of tradition within the wider Christian church.
• The episode encourages listeners to finish the Hillsdale course on Ancient Christianity, offering a podcast visit and travel stipend as a prize.

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Ancient Christianity: Historical Context and Faith Foundations

The Pre-Jesus World and Jewish History

• [11:11] John Luke: Shares newfound appreciation for understanding what led to Jesus’s crucifixion through centuries of prior history.

• [11:52] Al:

  "Everything we know about Jesus—where it came from and why—comes from that Old Testament history and geography."

• The episode recaps the struggles of Israel to maintain faithfulness, the divided kingdoms, and repeated exiles:

  • Northern Kingdom (Israel): Conquered by Assyria (722 BC)
  • Southern Kingdom (Judah & Benjamin): Fell to Babylon, temple destroyed in 586 BC
  • The importance of understanding these events for reading stories like the Samaritan woman (John 4).

• [25:28] Christian (on the kings):

  "Every single king of the northern tribe was evil. Even most of them on the southern tribes were evil. That’s important to think about when you get to the New Testament and hear about the Samaritans."

Greek Influence & The Gymnasium

• [14:45] Zach: Asks for clarification on why Jews attended Greek gymnasiums.
• [19:23] John Luke: Explains Greek ideals of physical/mental excellence versus Jewish focus on spiritual/restrained living.

  "...being set apart by circumcision... was showing they weren’t valuing strength in the human body like the Greeks were, which was causing a culture clash."

The Maccabean Revolt and Its Legacy

• [21:32] Al: Discusses culture clashes leading to the Maccabean revolt.
• [32:38] Zach: Inquires about the Maccabees; John Luke and Al clarify that the books—important for their historical but not prophetic content—act as a bridge between the Testaments.

The Second Temple Era

• [35:03] Zach: Asks whether key events (like placing the statue of Zeus in the Temple) occurred in Solomon's or Cyrus’s temple.

  • It was the Second Temple, built under Cyrus after the return from Persian exile.

• [36:14] Christian: Explains the second temple never matched the glory of Solomon’s, partly due to the absence of the Ark of the Covenant.

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Rome, Herod, and the Arrival of Christ

Power Shifts and Cultural Collisions

• [39:41] Al: The "puppet" kings—Herods—served Roman interests, resulting in complicated interactions when Jesus arrived.
• [42:38] John Luke:

  "The Herods... were almost trying to carve out their own little kingdom… kind of out in the middle of nowhere here."

• The inclusion of real historical figures—Alexander the Great, Herod, Tiberius, Pontius Pilate, Caligula, and Nero—roots the Gospel in the tangible events of world history.

The Destruction of the Temple and Christian Hope

• [46:08] Christian:

  "Caligula wanted a statue of himself in the temple, only stopped by his assassination. Nero comes, burns the city, blames Christians, starts persecution… ultimately the second temple is destroyed in AD 70."

• [47:31] Zach: Notes that Nero executed Peter and Paul, foundational figures of the early church.
• [48:00] Christian (closing):

  "...how in the world is some carpenter's son going to take down the Roman Empire? It looks as if Nero won... but now, 2,000 years later, that was not the end... We are part of something that's not leaping off a building, hoping someone is there to catch us. We're anchored in something that's real and anchored in reality."

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• [03:08] Christian: "I think it's dangerous to [personally attack]... That's one of the reasons so many young people have left the church, because they can't ask questions."
• [05:35] Al: "Grace covers everything—even as we're struggling through our theology..."
• [07:56] John Luke: "You need to argue the idea from the facts and not attack the person."
• [08:45] Al (humorous): "I thought Jase was a hairy tick."
• [25:28] Christian: "Every single king of the northern tribe was evil... That’s important to think about when you get to the New Testament and hear about the Samaritans."
• [40:44] Christian (on Daniel): "The statue Daniel saw: Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome—all prophesied. The stone smashes the statue—a kingdom that can't be destroyed is coming."

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Key Takeaways

• Faith debates are essential: The Robertsons urge listeners (and critics) to approach difference with charity, humility, and grace.
• Christianity is historically grounded: The historical deep dive shows Christianity’s roots are woven into the real, troubled, and diverse fabric of ancient world history.
• Open questions drive faith growth: Like Jesus, who asked many questions, the Robertsons value thoughtful engagement and honest wrestling, not silence or shame.
• Anchored in hope: Despite Rome’s might and opposition, the story of Christianity endures, demonstrating its foundation in both faith and fact.

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Responding to Accusations: [01:32]–[09:04]
• Grace and Faith Debates: [04:59]–[07:56]
• Ancient Christianity Background: [11:11]–[29:00]
• Greek Influence/Second Temple: [14:45]–[37:25]
• Roman Rule & Jesus’ Era: [39:41]–[44:11]
• Coming of the Kingdom: [46:08]–[48:00]

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a compelling case for why conversations—especially the tough or controversial ones—are not only healthy but necessary for vibrant, living faith. With their trademark mix of southern humor, brotherly ribbing, and reverence for Scripture, the Robertsons remind listeners that Christianity is as anchored in history as it is alive in the present, and that true unity is found not in perfect agreement but in shared grace and hope.

Transcript

[Christian]

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. This is our Friday episode, Unashamed. With Hillsdale taking it. You can get these courses for [e-mail]. we are taking a course on ancient Christianity. We got the whole crew here, so. Welcome back, guys. Everybody good?

[Zach]

Doing good.

[John Luke]

Very good. No, yeah. I'm in the city.

[Christian]

Are you on vacation? Is that what. What's.

[Zach]

Well, it was. Yeah, it was, honey. Spring break. So we took advantage of. Of that. So we're currently at the beach.

[Christian]

Okay. Must be nice.

[Zach]

I'm in one of the bedrooms on a chair with a chair in front of me with seven books stacked up top.

[Christian]

Well, you said. Yeah, you had the owl set up, so that's. That means it's the. That's the low rent redneck version.

[Al]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Christian]

But you're here and you look great. You don't sound so great, but you look good.

[Zach]

So I have as many books stacked on as I can. If I don't sound good. This is Al's setup that I've just. I've makeshift it here.

[Al]

It's. It's my. It's my old setup when I used to do things from the road. But Christian, you never look better as you. You bring that to this quartet.

[Zach]

Thank you, Al.

[Al]

You know that.

[Zach]

Appreciate that.

[Al]

That Joseph, well built and handsome. We are always so appreciate.

[John Luke]

Thank you.

[Zach]

I appreciate it.

[Christian]

And. And John Luke. I don't know if we should discuss it or not. We did get a little bit of. I don't want to call it hate mail, but we got some aggression pointed mainly towards me and you for an episode we did on. I think it was a C.S. lewis episode a few weeks back. I think it was. But do you want to address it or. I mean, I can tell you what it is.

[John Luke]

Yeah, tell me what it is. I think I saw it, but tell me what it is.

[Christian]

So basically you. Yours is. I don't know who's is more aggressive, but yours was about you playing Dungeons and Dragons.

[Al]

And.

[Christian]

And so you were called basically that. You're. You're advocating for demonic activity. Mine was. Let me just pull that up. I'll tell you what mine was. Mine was that I'm really messed up in my mind, Zach. Wow. You are really messed up in your mind. A borderline heretic. And my understanding of scripture is chaos. This is from our friend Frank. And then I'm really messed up in the mind. I already said that one. And it was on, I think when we were talking about C.S. lewis's the Great Divorce. I think it was that episode. I. I'm just looking at the comments. But was it the same?

[John Luke]

Was it the same hell?

[Christian]

Is it eternal torment? Yes.

[Al]

He.

[Christian]

He. He. He responds quite a bit. But I will say this about it, Frank, that you got to be careful. Like, you know, and I grew up like that. It was like. Like, you can't. Like, we're wrestling through concepts, and so we're talking about a lot of different things. I could be wrong. I mean, we've said that quite often on this podcast. I could be wrong on. Although we didn't make a proposition on the doctrine of hell at all in that podcast. We were simply talking about the work of C.S. lewis. I think he may be reading into what we were saying too much. In fact, this podcast, on this episode, we will talk about Jesus's teaching on hell, particularly with Lazarus, according to the professor who taught the course. So there's different opinions, different. Different propositions that different people hold. I don't know if I'm out of my. I probably am out of my mind, but if I'm out of my mind, I'm out of my mind for Christ. I don't have all the right answers. None of us do, you know, but to shut things down like that is not healthy, because you can't. I don't think it's healthy to. To essentially personal. Personal attacks and shaming people for having what you perceive to be a difference of opinion, which you don't actually know where I stand on that because I haven't said it yet publicly on this, at least in this podcast. I think it's dangerous to do that, and I think that is one of the reasons why so many young people have left the church, because they can't ask questions. We need to open the environment up. People have real questions about the Scripture, our interpretation as humans. We're gonna. It's. It's gonna be flawed, and we're gonna have to rely on the Spirit to guide us, and we're gonna have to remember that we are saved by grace and grace alone, not by how well we have ascended in our doctrinal understanding. That's not. That's not what the Bible teaches. Gentle rebuke, Frank. That's not just a general rebuke there, but I just. I got to push back a little bit because that kind of got under my skin a little bit. Should we. Should we play that or not?

[Zach]

Frank is just going to amp it up next time.

[John Luke]

I hope he does.

[Christian]

Do you think that was too much.

[Al]

No, I think it was right on target.

[Zach]

No.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Hold them accountable.

[John Luke]

Yeah. I hope he starts a podcast that's like anti unashamed. It's like ashamed of unashamed.

[Al]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

And it's like a, it's like a podcast critiquing us.

[Al]

If you get about 12 listeners to that, it's one of them.

[Christian]

That's why I love these courses though. I mean, I think it's good to get different perspective on things. You just shut down the discussion and you're like, just start throwing names at people when they don't fit into your, into your perceived box.

[Al]

I just, you brought up, you brought up a good point about grace. Because if, if we can look at, you know, sinful behavior and we've, we've been talking about this quite a bit on regular unashamed. When you look at the, the obvious acts of the sinful nature and we, and we all believe grace can cover that because that's what Jesus said. Right. And so we look at that and we're like, oh yeah, these, you know, terrible things that happen. But it doesn't cover us struggling through theological questions. I mean, it doesn't cover over us trying to reach unity in love in all things, even though we're all, you know, studying at different levels of people. And then you read A guy like C.S. lewis, who obviously was, you know, a deep, deep thinker, that, yeah, it was on a different level. And yet at the same time we share that in Christ. So it's a great point, the idea that the grace covers everything, you know, even, even as we're struggling through our theology, because you learn and you figure things out in different, you know, at different levels. And so you have to be able to have that. And I love what you said about the questions because Jesus was the master of questions. I mean, I hadn't noticed it Jace. I tip my hat to him because he really noticed it in our study of John of just how many questions Jesus asked. I mean, and if we're going to be like him, that's what we should be able to do. We should be able to ask a ton of questions and then struggle through the answers. Right.

[John Luke]

I think that just in on comments and hate comments in general, I'm super pro critical comments and people taking. Looking critically at what other people are saying online because I think that's genuinely a good thing. But it's. You need to argue from, argue the idea from the facts and not attack the person. And I think that's where things can get things because like, we may say something on here wrong. We may misquote something or whatever. And if someone says, oh, actually, you were saying that's not right, because, da, da, da. That's awesome. That's what I want to see for myself and for other people. But yeah, when it becomes like a personal thing, like heretic or calling names or whatever, that's just not actually helpful to learn anything.

[Christian]

I've done my fair share of trolling before. I, I, so I can't have like a burner account. No, but like, in the early days, like, like when Facebook first came out, like, yeah, I, I, I, I, I would troll, but I wouldn't, I would never be like, you're out of your mind. You're stupid, you're an idiot, you're a heretic. I wouldn't do that, but I would, I would go on and troll people.

[Zach]

You would throw the occasional. This emoji out there.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Al]

Last week, bro.

[Zach]

What are you talking about? I used to. You did it to me last week.

[Christian]

I did.

[Zach]

And then didn't respond for six hours, leaving me in a state of confusion.

[Christian]

That's why I can't be mad at Frank, man. Frank, I love you, brother. And, and if you don't love me, I love you, brother. And, and I. Look, I did troll Christian, so I can't, I can't come at you too hard. Well, let's, let's get into our.

[Al]

It took me a long time to figure out the difference between a heretic and a hairy tick. Because, I mean, for years I, I thought Jace was a hairy tick. And so I, I wasn't calling him a heretic, I was calling him a hairy tick. So just to clear that, clarify.

[Christian]

Well, there's, I mean, I think there are, is real heretical teaching that I think we should highlight and examine. But, man, I think we throw that label around very quickly. And, and I, I would caution against it. I mean, I don't throw that label out very often. And, and I, and I'm, and to be fair, I mean, I appreciate a lot of different traditions. I mean, that's one of the things I love about this course. I mean, that we're taking now. It's a different perspective than some of the ones we've taken before. I love that. I love that diversity of thought. Like, we can wrestle with some of these deeper questions about scripture. I mean, script. There's a lot of depth in the scriptures and there's a lot of depth in the history of the Christian church, and that's one of the things about this episode three, lecture three that we're in right now, by the way, you guys can take the course for free @unashamed for hillsdale.com. oh, by the way, we're going to do. If you finish this course with us, if you actually finish the course and get the certificate, we're going to have a drawing. And what we're going to do is we're going to invite you and a guest to come and sit in on one of our podcasts. And I think there might be a little bit of a stipend to like a thousand bucks or something like that for travel. But yeah, so we, we don't just want you to take the course with us. We want you to finish the course and actually get the certificate. We're all stacking up certificates and we'd love for you to do that with us. But one of the things I really have enjoyed about this ancient history, ancient Christianity course is the way that it anchors the Christian faith in a, in a historical context. You know, a lot of times we, we, if you grew up in church, you just think of this as, as our faith. It's almost like this is the thing that we kind of cross our fingers and we hope is true. This has been really encouraging for me to actually understand how Christianity sits in ancient history as a real thing. It gives a real quality to it. I don't know, did you guys, like, pick up on any of that kind of idea as we were going through this last lecture?

[John Luke]

Yes, that was kind of my thought. Like, I, the thing that really opened my eyes, especially the first two. And then the, well, lecture three, like, seeing how Jesus, seeing how the story developed hundreds of years before Jesus getting to that point, and it helped me really makes made sense why, like the Pharisee did what they did, the Sadducees did what they did, Pontius Pilate did what he did. Like you saw, I saw such a bigger picture of how we got to the point of Jesus being crucified than I've really ever thought of before.

[Al]

I think in this, this particular lecture, the world before Christ has always been. I've always been fascinated by Jewish history because, you know, it's shared with so many. I mean, obviously with all of Christianity, we share that Jewish history, but also even Islam shares up to a certain point and other world religions. And so, you know, it was really good for me to go back and sort of refresh on that when I was in the school of preaching, you know, 40 years ago, the course that really, I mean, Just totally grounded me in my ability to be able to teach. The Bible itself was Old Testament history and geography because it gives you the foundation by which everything we know about Jesus, where it came from and why. And so I thought he did a great job with that and, and just understanding the, the power of what happened with the, the people losing their way so many times along through history and even what happened with the promised land and the captivities and all the things that happened because all that prophecy that we read and when we study and we go back to Ezekiel and Daniel and you know, Ezra, Nehemiah, all those things are pointing to Christ. And so, you know, to get to the story of Jesus, you have to understand where it all came from. And, and I thought that was really, he did an excellent job of that. It was very encouraging.

[Zach]

One of the things was, I mean, it was like a 42 minute lecture, I think. And he was just, the whole time, like, I don't think he looked at notes. One time I was like, how in the world does he know all of this stuff just off the cusp? It was pretty incredible. But I think the thing for me, I think sometimes you question why did Jesus choose to come? Or why did God want Jesus to come at the time he did? And learning more things like this, you really see why you have Alexander the Great and you have Hellenism, then you see the Roman Empire and all these things that were happening. I was looking at these notes when it was talking about the practice of attending the gymnasium with the Greeks. And then when Antiochus wanted to put Zeus in the temple and the Jewish men were attending gymnasium and they were some of the things he was saying about them trying to hide the covenant by using plastic surgery. Just some of the things that were happening at that time were so crazy and fascinating that you really see why Jesus came when he did. But Zach, I was going to ask you a question about that, just kind of that Greek culture with the Septuagint and about the gymnasium, because I was kind of confused on what the gymnasium was and kind of what purpose it served and, and how that whole the Jewish and the Greek thing was kind of like, what was the, the dynamic there at that time?

[Christian]

Well, I think it's interesting that that's one thing I loved about this course is that how you see characters that we've all heard of, it's like real historical characters like Alexander the Great like that, like, you know, that's a guy that we've all heard about, read about in high school and then how he intersects with the story of Israel and. And how that. What that Hellenization, you know, which is essentially how. How the Greek culture could come into another culture. And you could almost have like a emerging. Or America is like a melting pot that's. We heard that about our own culture. It's a melting pot of cultures. And so the Hellenization, or, you know, the. The Hellenized Jews were Jews that had been. Had been. Not co opt is the wrong word, but there had been a strong Greek influence over them or in them. And so Alexander the Great is one of those characters. So that gymnasium was a place where they would get together and have lots of conversations. They would learn philosophy, they would learn kind of the ways of Greek or Greco kind of philosophy. You guys, like Aristotle, Plato, Socrates.

[Zach]

Why would they do that naked? What was the point? I was. I've never heard. I've never heard that you were interested.

[Christian]

Were you? Like, I might not.

[Zach]

I was just, like. It was just. It was just an interesting detail just

[Al]

to throw out there.

[Christian]

I don't know why they. I mean, I know they celebrated the human body, I guess. I mean, maybe it was a. It was a. I guess they didn't celebrate the human body. They actually thought the flesh was bad. I don't know. That's a good question. I'm not really sure why, but I think if you back up a little bit, though, to that, before you get to that, is that what. What this lecture covers is essentially the history of Israel in the sense that they were constantly struggling to remain faithful to Yahweh and to the covenant and to the. And to the Torah. Anybody that has read the Old Testament would get the same indication, right? You read the Old Testament, it's like, man, these guys, it's like continual, like, just making a mockery of God's covenant. And. And so the sign of that covenant was circumcision. And what they, again, did in. In those gymnasiums is that they would cover up their circumcision. I don't know how. How they did that. That was kind of an interesting. He said through plastic surgery, kind of as a joke. But. But the idea was, like, you're walking around naked and everybody's like, you know, can see everybody. And so the. The Jewish people were embarrassed that they were circumcised because the Greeks were not circumcised. And so they would somehow cover up their circumcision. That looked like they were. That they. They weren't circumcised. And they were almost like hiding from it. And that was kind of led to what, what happens later with some of these revolts and stuff. But, but that early history of Israel. The first time that I read through the entire Bible in a year, I got to the end of Malachi. And the way the Christian Bible is set up, Malachi is the last book in the Old Testament. The way the Hebrew Bible set up is the last book in the Bible in their. And their canon is 2nd Chronicles, actually ends with Cyrus, who was a Persian king who's also mentioned in this, in this thing when he constructs the building of the second temple. But either way you read it, I think anybody who, if you had no concept of Christ whatsoever, if you had no concept of Judaism, if you had no concept of any, just going to read the story. I think, I think you would get to the end of it and I would, I think you would see the continual lack of faithfulness on the part of Israel. I think you would say, I'm not sure this is going to work out.

[Al]

You know what I mean?

[Christian]

I'm not sure this is going to work out. And so because of the lack of faithfulness, so this whole episode and this whole lecture, it starts with what happened before Christ, which was Israel struggling to remain faithful. And because of their lack of faithfulness to God, the Israelites lost the promised land. Then they were forced into exile. This is when you get into the prophets, like Isaiah, Ezekiel, all the different prophets who prophesy about these different coming destructions to Jerusalem. And the first one that happened was in 722. It's when the Assyrians conquered the Northern Kingdom. Al I thought it'd be good if you just gave a quick cursory overview of what even is the divided kingdom. Because I think a lot of people, I mean I had a hard time understanding that for years.

[John Luke]

I want to make a note, talk, make one note about the gymnasium and what that was because I think this is just give a little more context. The, the Greeks held the. Held physical strength, mental strength and desire as like their top thing. Like that's. They loved it. And Zach was right and said they, they hated the body. Well, they did because it grew old and got bad. But at its peak, that's what they kind of like desired was that like strong strength, like well made people, well made minds, that kind of idea. And so the gymnasium, like they would do, they would talk and they would also do like sports and games and stuff. So it was kind of like a combination between like a meeting place, college gym, like that. We think of now, today. And that was one of the culture clashes with the Jews, is that the Greeks had this very idealized idea of human strength and what the body should look like and how it should take pleasure in itself. Whereas the Jews had a morality that was against that, against pleasure, against, like, pride in the body, because they were like, God is the ultimate, God is the king. And all the Jewish laws was about restraint instead of, like, a hedonistic giving in. So that's where some of the culture clash was. So, like, the being set apart by circumcision was, one, just showing that they were set apart, but two, that they weren't valuing strength in the human body like the Greeks were, which was causing a culture clash, essentially. And that's what came in later when we get into the Maccabees, one of those culture clashes was. Was. Can't remember the guy's name, but when they had the Maccabees, one of their culture clashes was that he was saying that the Jews were giving into their flesh, essentially by giving into the Greek, Hellenistic worldview.

[Al]

Yeah, that was a Hasmon, I think.

[Zach]

Tyus.

[John Luke]

Yeah, yeah.

[Al]

Which. Which kind of led to the Maccabean revolt. No, that's what I thought, too, John. Look, I'm glad you clarified that, because it's what it seemed like to me as well. There was. It was more than just. I mean, there was, like, thoughts and talking, but then at the same time, a lot of physical. He talked about wrestling, you know, in. In competition. And so I guess the Jews were wanting to be a part of that. But then, you know, it's interesting because I've.

[Zach]

I've.

[Al]

I feel personally like there's that same thing today, like, you know, working out. And Christian, you had a whole podcast kind of combining the idea of taking care of your body, but also your spiritual side as well, and you to try to do both of those. But it's difficult sometimes because when you get too far over on the physical side, many times you start to see sort of a hedonistic result. And so you would need a combination of both. But you have to bring a spiritual component there. And, you know, with nudity. I. I don't know. I mean, you're just bringing into a lot of. A lot of issues. And so I. I think that's still a struggle. I mean, you know, I used to go to the gym and work out, but then, I don't know, I just. I saw things there and saw people there and had different reasons for being there and eventually just, you know, have My own private place to work out, because it just didn't. I didn't like the, the feel of it. So I think there's still. I think that struggle still goes on to this very day, which is interesting that that's an ancient thought and yet still you see sort of the impact of that in our culture. I think that's a fair thing to say anyway.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Christian]

But before they get involved with, with the Greeks, you have the. The Assyrians conquered the, the northern tribes, which would have been like 10 of the 12 tribes.

[Al]

Yeah, and let me just go back to that. So. So, you know, it started with, you know, obviously the people asked for a king, and he mentions this and Saul becomes the king, but he wasn't really God's choice. He was the people's choice because they wanted to have a king that looked like other kings. And so he ultimately was rejected because God didn't choose him. And so the first chosen king for Israel by God was David. And so, you know, David had his issues which we talked about. We studied life of David. And then his son Solomon was the last king of a united Israel because his sons Jeroboam and Rehoboam split the kingdom. Jeroboam, it was a civil war, in essence. And so 10 tribes went to the north, and then you only had the two in the south. And so that was the setup, you know, all the way through the kings. You had northern Israel and you had, you know, Judah down at the bottom. And so that was the way it went until the Assyrians came in and basically captured the upper 10 tribes and deported them. And they were never the same. I mean, they never came back. They became the Samaritans, which, you know, you read when we get to Jesus day, you see there's this division between the Samaritans and the, the lower two, Judah. And so which became the kingdom of Israel was just those two tribes at the bottom. And so. But then they were taken as well by the Babylonians. So ultimately all of Israel wound up deported and out of the country. And I thought one of the interesting things he said was, and I hadn't really thought about it before was, you know, that, that the. When you look back at the era of united Israel, I mean, we're talking about 1948, is the. Is then becomes the time after these days, early days when Jesus was there, when the kingdom, when it was a. A country of Israel. That's a long time.

[Christian]

That's a long time.

[Al]

I mean, yeah, it's, it's.

[Christian]

It's Fascinating too. I mean, when you think about Israel, those northern, the northern kingdom of, you know, the 10 tribes, the south would have been Judah and Benjamin. And there were probably some Levites in there as well because of the priesthood. But in my Bible at the end of second Kings, I actually wrote this out as I went through one year and was studying the different kings. And, and I have two columns. One is Judah, Judah, Benjamin. So this, the southern tribe, southern kingdom. And then I have the northern kingdom in the other column. And I just wrote the name of the, of the king and then I just wrote next to his name. Whether the Bible says he was evil or he did what was good and our righteous would be determined in my text. And would you believe that every single king of the northern tribe was evil? Every single one of them. And even most of them on the southern tribes, most of them were evil. You've got Josiah, Hezekiah, Jotham, Uzziah, Josephat. Those were the only 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 that were actually considered righteous in the eyes of God. And I think that's important to think about because when you get into the New Testament and you hear about the Samaritans, like the Samaritan woman, do you remember in the Gospel of John, and she says, our fathers worship on this mountain. And you, you guys, you worship in Jerusalem down at the temple. Where do we worship at? And it's, I mean that's a, like that, that one story is anchored in all of this historical context. Well, who, who are the Samaritans? Who are they? When you ask that question, you read the scripture. Well, that, that was the northern tribes of Israel. That was the ones that the, that the Assyrians conquered and by the way, was prophesied by the prophets. And so then the next big moment was in 5:86, you have the, the Babylonian conquering of, of Israel of the, of Jerusalem. And they actually took down and destroyed the temple, the first temple. And I think that's a key thing here because after defeating, after that, that happens. This, he mentions this in, in the course of the. This one figure shows up on the scene named Cyrus, who is not even of Israel. He was a Persian king and he is the one that constructs the building of the new temple, which would been the second temple. So I just found that to be fascinating that kind of the hero in the story of Israel was someone who is not even of Israel. I don't know if that hits you guys at all.

[Al]

Yeah, it did. And we want you to take the course with us. Unashamedforhillsdale.com is where you go to sign up for the courses. No, you know, interesting, Zach. I thought about this. Even in the modern era, I mean, right now we're going through this, you know, Iran, Israel, U. S. War that's going on with the attacks, and guess who that is? That's ancient. That's Persia and Israel.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Al]

Yet again, yet again, you know, involved in skirmishes. So it is interesting that, you know, we go back in history and you see the same, you know, people through the lineage, you know, still having these conflicts and still things that are going on even into the modern, Modern day, in the modern era. But yeah, and you know, the, the birth of the Pharisees that came actually out of the Babylonian deportation because the, the people that were, you know, Daniel obviously, and then, you know, you, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, they kind of get the, the highlights. But there were a lot of other people that were standing for. For God in this culture where they were being forced to have to choose between Babylonian gods and the God. And, and that's where the Pharisees actually, their roots are there, which is very interesting that you see that then come forward into the days of Jesus because that was their deal. We want to hold the line and we never want to be taken into captivity again. And so which I thought he was fair with the Pharisees because, you know, obviously we kind of just see him as the boogeyman, you know, of the, of the era of Jesus. But, you know, they were rooted in the right idea. I mean, you know, that we want to serve God no matter what, we're not going to serve other gods. And so the mindset was right. Obviously they went too far because with any human traditions, you start adding in your own thing.

[Zach]

So he made the point too. I thought it was cool. I didn't know that the Sadducees came from. He said the high priest was Zadok under David.

[Al]

Was that if you follow it all the way back, it would have been like through Aaron and Moses was the original part of that idea from the Levitical priesthood, which was Levi, one of the 12 sons. So they claimed to be able to follow their heritage back to that, to the priesthood.

[Zach]

But I think he was meaning like, like the name Sadducees, the thing like that name.

[Al]

That's right. He said Zadok. Zadok, I think, which was the priest under David. I think you're right.

[Zach]

Yeah, I thought that was interesting.

[Christian]

Yeah. I mean, the next big move kind of in the story, though, because you have the, well, you Assyrian invasion of the northern tribes and the conquering thereof. You have the Babylonian invasion of the, the southern tribe and the destruction of the temple. All prophesied all this was all in there. And it was a result of honestly them not being faithful to God. As long as Israel remained faithful to Yahweh, then they were always protected. There was never a moment when Israel was actually faithful when, when they, when, when they weren't secure. The insecurity came from the lack of faithfulness. And so then you have a couple hundred years after, but I guess it was 586 was the, the, the first one, but the second one then was like what was the, the time period that Alexander the Great came in the scene?

[Al]

That was like 322. Yeah, yeah.

[Christian]

So then he shows up on the scene and this is kind of where the introduction to, to the, the Greco Roman world begins. Where we talked about the Gymnasium previous at this, the, the, the, the Greek influence. Oh that this is the, to Hellenize the Jews. This is where that, that begins is, is with Alexander the Great. So you can see this story is not, these aren't Bible stories. These are like historical. This is actually this whole story of Christ and his emergence on the scene is, is anchored in real historical events. I mean you got to sit in that for a moment. I mean this is not make believe. These aren't fairy tales. But if you think about the time when Alexander the Great shows up on the scene and when you start to see the Jews spread out into these more, more of Greece, then what you actually see is other types of gods now are emerging gods that are make believe gods, like Zeus, you know, the temple of Zeus and things like that. So how, how's this story going to intertwine together? I mean it's pretty fascinating.

[Zach]

Have y' all read first, second or third Maccabees?

[Christian]

I have.

[Zach]

John, like I'm assuming you have.

[John Luke]

I did at one point. I don't, I don't know if I could come up with anything specific about it, but.

[Zach]

Yeah, well, I've heard people talk about them, but I, I didn't know the context until, until this, until this lecture which was interesting.

[Al]

Well, and it's that period, you know, it's that period between Malachi and then when we pick up the story of Jesus, you know, from a Jewish history perspective is, is when those books were written, when they take place. And the interesting thing about them, when you read them and any of the Apocrypha, you know, which the whole series, you. You don't get anything new there. There's no. There's not a prop. There's no prophecy there that talks about the Messiah. So it is interesting that during this period of time, it seems pretty silent as things are happening. But then at the same time, as Zach said, you can also see the hand of God working. And so even the Maccabean revolt, I mean, the idea was they were still clinging to the idea that the temple is made specifically for the presence of God. And so these attempts were made both by the Greeks and even by the Romans to take that away, you know, and it was taken away in different instances. And yet the Jewish people would. Would come back. And so that same cycle that you read about, all through the judges, you know, through the. Through the captivities that we've already mentioned, you see this idea that we have to return to God, it really does set up exactly what Jesus does when he comes to set up the ultimate kingdom and the ultimate presence of God, which we'll talk about in the next lecture, of what his role was to do that. But I do find it interesting that even through this historical period, you still. You still see the value of the Jewish people understanding the idea, not just a need for Messiah, but to have the presence of God with them. So. And by the way, we want you to take this course with us. And we even have a little prize for someone that does that for US Unashamed for Hillsdale.com is where you can do that. Yeah.

[Christian]

If you finish the course, we're gonna. We're gonna have a drawing. You'll send us your certificate. We'll get further instructions as we move through the course, and then we're gonna have a drawing, and we'll invite you guys to come hang out with us on set, and we'll give a little. We'll give a little voucher for travel as well. So here's what's cool.

[Zach]

Can you give me a quick history lesson real quick?

[Christian]

Maybe. I don't know if I know it. I will.

[Zach]

No, it's quick. You will definitely know it. So when they're talking about, you know, wanting to put the. The statue of Zeus in the temple, and then you. You get to Caligula and he wants to put a statue of himself in the temple. Is that. Is that the temple Solomon built or is that the one Cyrus built that

[Christian]

you're referring to Cyrus? Because the one that Solomon built was destroyed in. In the. Yeah, yeah. 586. So you're in Second Temple Judaism at this moment.

[Al]

And, and it, it had been restored, it had been upgraded, which started probably, probably with Herod the Great. Right, that. And so that was a.

[Christian]

Well, it was 40 years before G. I think it was a 40 year expansion. So.

[Al]

Yeah. And so whenever you get, when we get to the gospel studies in the next podcast, you know, the temple was, was kind of really restored to glory because again, the things you mentioned there Christian, there had been, you know, there had been a lot of damage, things have been stolen. There's a lot of stuff that happened. So when Jesus came, the second temple was kind of at its peak in terms of. Other than the original, in terms of

[Christian]

how the original, the, the original temple. That's actually a very interesting point to think about because when the prophets talk about the new temple, they talk about it in a way that would make the first temple look really, really small. Like, in other words, the temple that's coming is going to swallow up the one that Solomon built in terms of its glory, in terms of its grandeur, in terms of how amazing it is. We don't actually see that with the second temple, the one that Cyrus allowed to be built. That was the one that the Persians essentially came in and allowed the Jews to build. That temple never really captured the same glory as the first. One reason is because they didn't have the Ark of the Covenant. I mean, the Ark of the Covenant was gone and never to be seen again. And so I think I want to say the Eastern Orthodox Church or one of the Orthodox churches, maybe it's the Oriental Orthodox Church, claims to have the Ark. We'll see. Yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't know. I don't think, I don't think that the ark will ever be seen again, in my opinion. But I want to say this because when we move. Who is it? Ethiopians.

[John Luke]

Ethiopians.

[Christian]

Okay. So when you, when you look at the, the progression here, after Alexander the Great comes in, you have like, yeah, the, the. They try to get Zeus, which is funny because Al, me and you and Phil went to, went to Greece. We literally walked right by the temple of Zeus. And just if you don't know, it turns out that Zeus was a fraud and the temple's in ruins. If you didn't know he was actually the God of the heavens, that statue is done, gone over. They wanted to take and put a statue of Zeus in the temple of Jerusalem. And so a lot of these guys in the gymnasium, the Jewish men, I think they were, you know, they were kind of like being converted over to this way of thinking. And that's why they were hiding their circumcision, which is what we talked about earlier. And so the Maccabean reboot revolt, the way I interpret it is it was kind of a. These guys were, like, honest. I think they were like. They were real. They believed in Yahweh and the Torah. And so this was, to me, that they wanted to restore the temple back to what. What it truly was. And they saw this basic prostitution of their faith, of their history that was coming in through the Hellenization of their culture. And they were like, we're not standing for this. And so they were fairly successful in their revolt. And that's why, what we said earlier, that the Hasmonean kingdom was the last truly independent Jewish state in the holy land until 1948. That's a big deal. That's a really big deal. And so then Jesus comes in the scene whenever. When Pompeii the Great entered Judea, and then he conquered the region for Rome. So now you enter in Roman occupation, and this is when things never were the same again. You know what I thought about, Al, when I was thinking about all this history? I was like, man, this lines up perfectly with the vision that Daniel had in chapter two of that statue. He saw every one of these kingdoms. Every single one of these kingdoms he saw and he prophesied them, which.

[Al]

And I've always thought. I thought the same thing, Zach. And. And I thought when I. You go back and read that there would have been. Because, you know, the magi are going to be a part of the next lecture, too. He was mentioned here as well, because they. They were a part of that era. And they probably read Daniel and that's probably, you know, or understood from his prophecies and was. Which was probably one of the reasons why they were prepared for when Jesus actually was born to make the trek to Israel and pay him homage and really, according to Dr. Calvert, become believers, probably because they go as emissaries and leave as believers. You know, that's pretty amazing.

[Christian]

It's amazing because if you go read. Yeah, you guys, if you're taking this course, go read Daniel, too, and read that. And look at that statue that Daniel saw in his dream. And then he's. Mary, if you remember, he. There was a stone that was not cut out by man's hand, Right? So does God live in temples built by man's hand? No, he doesn't.

[Zach]

So.

[Christian]

But there's a stone that's not cut out by human hand. It rolls off and it hits the statue and demolishes it. Well, the statue is, is from the top to the bottom, is in progressive order. It's, it's the Babel, it's Babylon, it's Persia, it's Greece, and then it's ultimately Rome with the bronze, with the feet that are mixed with clay and, and bronze and so. Or iron. And so you, you see all four of these kingdoms that are in this story being prophesied in Daniel, chapter two by Daniel. And then that is the days when the Roman Empire is coming to a close. Then the king when, when the, when the stone that rolls out of the mountain and hits those, hits that statue. The Bible says that in those days, he will set up a kingdom, a kingdom that can't be shaken nor destroyed. That's why, honestly, in this podcast, we are so heavy on the kingdom of God being here. And I think we see that the idea is actually rooted in history. I know we're going to run out of time here, but I feel like we need to get to the end of, of where he ends, which is essentially you have this, you know, Roman occupation. Jesus shows up on the scene in this Roman occupation. You have Herod, who is. How would you just, how would you guys say, how would you define Herod's role in conjunction with the Roman Empire?

[Al]

Puppet.

[Christian]

Like a puppet. He's a puppet of the Roman Empire.

[Al]

Yeah, puppet was my word is what I wrote down in my notes. Because that, I mean, he definitely didn't have. He had more Roman interest in mind than Jewish, I'll put that way. And I think you see that even in the interaction he had with Jesus, you know, at the end when he was crucified, that he, he did not care about the Jewish people, you know, and I'm talking about the, the Herods in general, because there was a whole dynasty of Herods.

[John Luke]

Yeah, I didn't, I thought puppet wasn't my word because I thought he kind of the, the first Herod. And really the rest of them kind of on the line, were almost trying to carve out their own little kingdom. Like they were from the Romans for the Romans, but they, once they kind of got to Judea, they were like, oh, we could actually, we're kind of out in the, you know, out in the middle of nowhere here. We can just make our own kingdom. And that's what caused a lot of problems as well.

[Al]

That's a good point. I mean, they were self interest, maybe a better term for them. Yeah, no doubt about it.

[Zach]

Were all the Herods Good at construction or was that Herod the Great that was really the one that kind of led the charge with, with that.

[Al]

Yeah. I don't know about the others. Kind of seem to be like just you know, going from his glory because you know, and obviously his biggest thing was the, the, you know, the freshening and rebuilding up of the temple. But he had a lot of other things he did as well. But obviously he was so, you know, narcissistic and paranoid. I mean, you know, he killed all those two year olds which that was one thing that I never heard anybody put a number to it. And he said, most historians and scholars said between a dozen and two dozen, which was far fewer than I had always imagined in that moment, like thousands. Yeah, that's why, I mean because they talk about the wailing of the mothers, you know, but I mean like he said, 12 year old killed would have been tragic enough.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Al]

But it did make me not. I've always imagined it being worse than that. So if that's true, it's not as bad as I've always thought about it being.

[Christian]

So, so where you had this kind of coinciding with the kingdom language too is you have, Tiberius is kind of the head of Rome at this time. When Jesus enters into the scene, you have Pontius Pilate, you have that whole character, right? Jesus is, is killed on the cross, he is put in a tomb. Three days later, he's raises from the dead. The church is kind of coming out of that. And then you have Caligula, which was insane. I mean that's one of the things that was brought up in this lecture is that he was like certified, you know, insane. If you've read about, I would be, say, be careful reading about Caligula because it is downright pornographic. I mean this guy was a very perverse person and was just a brutal tyrant. So he comes in after Tiberius, well then he gets assassinated internally and then that paves the way for Nero. And so when Nero comes on the scene now we got to go tour Rome and got kind of, yeah, Nero's Garden.

[Al]

I was going to mention that Zach, I haven't mentioned in a while, but if you're interested in this sort of history, and it was very interesting to me, you should find Torchbearer, which was the movie that dad narrated and Zach produced and, and co wrote and it's so good because we, we talk about a lot of what was talked about in this lecture and we actually filmed in Rome from Nero's garden and dad, you know, talked about it in the Coliseum. The things that Dr. Calvert talked about with the persecution of Christians, feeding them to the lions and, you know, boiling oil and put him, put him as lampstands. I mean, human beings put on as torches, you know, to light gardens. I mean, just.

[Christian]

It's brutal. It's brutal. And so where, what you kind of see though is the intersection of the temple and all of this stuff because, you know, Caligula, going back one, one emperor, he wanted to build a, a gold statue of himself and put it in the temple. And the only reason why he didn't accomplish that was because he got assassinated. Well, then Nero comes on the scene. You're thinking, well, maybe he's going to be a little bit more friendly to the cause. Well, not only did Nero not like the Christians, which he didn't. He said they were atheists. He, he, he also. Was it the, the Christians he said were atheists.

[Zach]

Yes.

[Al]

Well, yeah, yeah, and the Jews.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Because they, yeah, because they didn't have an image of their God. But, but Nero wanted to expand. He wanted to take the whole area and he wanted to turn it into, for marble, into gold. And so he couldn't get the elites to sell him the land and their property, so he ended up burning down the city. And then ultimately he blamed that on the Christians, which started the persecution of the Christians. And then lastly, I think where this kind of all ends is, is the temple itself being. Being destroyed and being burned in 80, 70. And so that's kind of the full scope of kind of like the whole history of the whole story up until really the birth of the new church

[Zach]

and nearest the one that executed Peter and Paul too.

[Al]

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because that, that's a big deal. I mean, Peter and Paul are the two foundational figures in the first century post Jesus. And you could probably throw John in there as well. And for those two to be martyred right before the temple destruction was a big blow to Christianity, obviously. But you couldn't stamp it out because, you know, obviously the temple goes on because we are the temple. So.

[Christian]

Well, that. I think that's the, that's the thing. What time we at right now.

[Al]

We're, we're. We're out of time.

[Christian]

Okay. I think this is the thing we can end with right here is, is that when you think about the, that vision that Daniel had, one of the things that this lecture helped me really just sit home with me and is that you think about how in the world is some carpenter son going to take down the Roman Empire. And it looks as if Nero won the game because he did ultimately defeat Christianity in the moment. And then ultimately the second temple was destroyed in AD 70. So it looks like that Rome actually won and that Christianity and Judaism, for that matter, are done. But now we know here, some 2,000 years later, that that was not the end of the story, that that was actually just the beginning of the faith that we hold to the ancient faith of Christianity. This is not a story that is made up. This is a story that is anchored in real historical events. So we are part of something that's not leaping off the the building, hoping that someone's there to catch us. We're actually rooted in something that's real and that is anchored in reality. So you guys want to take this course with us? You can go to unashamed for hillsdale.com the course is free. Again, we're gonna. We're gonna. Anyone that completes the course, we're gonna have drawing and gonna invite you guys to come down and hang out with us on set. Love for you guys to be a part of this with us. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamed professional forhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale. Com. And don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.