Ep 1297 | You’re Being Gaslit About Love … and Most People Don’t See It

Summary

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Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1297 | “You’re Being Gaslit About Love … and Most People Don’t See It”
March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, the Robertson family dives deep into the confusion, distortion, and spiritual warfare surrounding our modern definition of love. Drawing on biblical texts, personal stories, and cultural observations, the Robertsons argue that society is being “gaslit” about what real love is—and that most people, even within the church, have lost sight of God’s design for love, sexuality, and human flourishing. The discussion is anchored in scripture, candid life experience, and the urgent conviction that rediscovering agape love is essential for personal renewal and generational transformation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Changing Definition of “Love”

• Contrast Between Brotherly and Agape Love
  • Jason introduces the Greek concepts of love (philia, agape), noting how ancient Greek philosophers mostly used “philia” (brotherly love), while “agape”—the selfless, sacrificial love later embodied by Jesus—rose to prominence in Christian thought.
    • “The Greek philosophers didn't use what became the Greek word for the ultimate love, agape. And it was rarely used until Jesus got here and then all of a sudden…” —Jason [02:15]

2. Pop Culture's Distortion of Love

• The hosts riff on classic love songs from Foreigner (“I Want to Know What Love Is”), Tina Turner (“What’s Love Got To Do With It”), and others, poking fun at their shallow or confused lyrics compared to the biblical model.
  • “My dad liked [‘Love is Like Oxygen’] because of the guitar run ... but when I looked up the lyrics of that song, I was kind of embarrassed ... it’s stupid because it’s like, if you get too much, you get too high and not enough and you’re gonna die.” —Jason [03:06]
• They assert that the cultural search for love is misguided:
  • “Everybody’s looking for love in all the wrong places.” —Jason [04:51]

3. Biblical Foundations: Love Defined in Sacrifice

• Jason discusses the first biblical mention of love, placing it in the context of sacrifice and creation, directly opposing the cultural take of love as self-centered feeling or sexual gratification.
  • “The first time love is mentioned, it was in a sacrificial context.” —Jason [05:10]
• The attack on marriage, gender roles, and children is framed as spiritual warfare against God's original intent for humanity (“be fruitful and multiply").
  • "There is an attack on children... from the spiritual forces of evil.” —Jason [05:58]
  • "The point of humanity... Genesis 1:28. Be fruitful and multiply. Subdue the earth and fill it up." —Luke [08:02]

4. Modern Culture and the Gaslighting of Love

• The hosts argue that society has reduced love and sexuality to “sex”—stripped of covenant or generational purpose. The terminology itself has shifted, eroding the spiritual weight of intimacy.

  • “We used to call it making love... then somewhere along the way... they just started calling it sex. So then it could be with anybody…” —Christian [09:44]

• Cultural pushback against biblical marriage and sexuality is seen as a refusal to accept boundaries and divine design.

  • "You can't tell me what to do with my own sexuality. And the answer is, yeah, you do whatever you want... but if you want the abundant life, this is the pathway." —Luke [15:30]

5. Scripture Examples: Warnings and Wisdom

• Ezekiel 23 and Proverbs 7

  • Luke and Jason recount biblical metaphors—like Israel as an unfaithful woman (Ezekiel 23) and the seductive “adulterous woman” (Proverbs 7)—showing how lust and self-seeking “love” always end in destruction.
    • “Real love is not being taken over by lust ... It actually is about ... the union of souls.” —Luke [13:17]
    • "[In Proverbs 7,] he followed her like an ox going to the slaughter, like a deer stepping into a noose … little knowing it will cost him his life.” —Jason [26:52]

• Modern Analogy: “Highway to Hell”

  • Jason connects AC/DC’s “Highway to Hell” to Proverbs 7, reframing it as a warning about rejecting God’s love and design.
    • "Her house is a highway to hell. So you never realize that AC/DC... that is a Bible verse in the context of the wrong definition of what love is." —Jason [30:11]

6. Gaslighting, Genesis, and Gender Roles

• The hosts examine the original fall (Genesis 3) and how Satan used deception—what Luke labels “the great gaslighting”—to upend God’s created order.
  • “Adam did not protect his wife... he abdicating his responsibility. He let, he fed his wife to the wolves and boom, sin enters into the world.” —Luke [36:47]

7. God’s Remedy: Sacrifice, New Birth, and Resurrection

• The highest definition of love is Jesus’ willingness to sacrifice himself for humanity—offering us a pattern to follow in baptism (dying to self, being raised anew) and everyday life.
  • "Agape love... is the highest form of love, selfless, unconditional and sacrificial. Defined as a deliberate choice to seek another's well being over one's own..." —Jason [18:15]
  • "It's the resurrection... if there is a resurrection of the dead, then now we can actually enter into the way. We can actually live our life as Christ lived his life..." —Luke [42:01]
  • "What you did, brother, was you broke the generational curse that the evil one has put on your family. And you're saying, 'I'm not going to be this.'” —Christian [45:17]

8. The Body as a Temple: Living Sacrifice

• Citing Romans 6, Romans 12, and 1 Corinthians 6, the Robertsons argue that sexual sin is unique in that it injures the very body meant to be the dwelling place of God—a fact often glossed over in church teaching.
  • “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit?... The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord.” —Jason [46:32]
  • “We’ve honestly, unfortunately bought into an eschatology that is not biblical. Your body is a temple. Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Not—We’re not waiting on something out in the future.” —Luke [51:01]

9. What Is At Stake? (Final Thoughts)

• The episode closes with the conviction that redefining love away from God's design leads to isolation, loneliness, and death, while embracing Christ’s model leads to true flourishing, generational blessing, and the fullness of purpose for which we were created.
  • “So just ask yourself the question: what's the end result? Isolation, death and loneliness? Or is it abundance, community and life? And if you choose the latter, you're going to find yourself in what we call the kingdom of God.” —Luke [34:14]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“The Greek philosophers didn't use what became the Greek word for the ultimate love, agape. And it was rarely used until Jesus got here and then all of a sudden…”
— Jason [02:15]

“Everybody’s looking for love in all the wrong places.”
— Jason [04:51]

“The first time love is mentioned, it was in a sacrificial context... In our culture, there is a... there is an attack on children... from the spiritual forces of evil.”
— Jason [05:10]

“We used to call it making love... then somewhere along the way... they just started calling it sex. So then it could be with anybody…”
— Christian [09:44]

“Agape love... is the highest form of love, selfless, unconditional and sacrificial.”
— Jason [18:15]

“What we are saying right here is controversial. Like it's very controversial. It's kind of stuff to get you canceled. And you think, why? There has to be a limit... the guardrails aren't arbitrary guardrails. They're actually... what fits into reality."
— Luke [33:09]

"We're being gaslit. And... that's what the evil one does. He got. He gaslights us... You ever notice that no one wants to have a conversation about what leads to human flourishing? What people want to have a conversation about is, you can't limit me. It's the great gaslighting."
— Luke [34:49]

“This is how it works. But it doesn’t happen until somebody goes into a grave and comes out new. That’s how it has to happen.”
— Christian [45:40]

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit?... The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord.”
— Jason [46:32]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:06]: Introduction to Hillsdale College Bible studies, “Philo” and Greek words for love
• [03:06]: Rock song lyrics versus biblical love, pop culture reflections
• [05:10]: Biblical first mention of love; cultural attack on children, sexuality, and creation
• [09:44]: How language shifted from “making love” to “sex”—loss of covenant meaning
• [11:40-13:30]: Ezekiel 23, lust vs. real love; lust's deadly consequences in scripture
• [14:06]: Mark 12, marriage, and the generational nature of love
• [15:30]: God's design vs. cultural pushback on sexual boundaries
• [21:34]: The “black hole” analogy—does your love multiply or consume?
• [25:11]: Proverbs 7, seduction, the path to destruction, and tying in modern culture
• [30:11]: “Highway to Hell” as a biblical metaphor for the wrong definition of love
• [34:19]: Choosing between death and life: “What does your path lead to?”
• [34:49]: Gaslighting in culture, the Genesis account, and gender roles
• [42:01]: Sacrifice, resurrection, and the paradox of dying to live
• [45:17]: Breaking generational curses through surrendering to Christ
• [46:32]: 1 Corinthians 6 and the body as temple—a unique biblical warning about sexual sin

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Tone and Language

Throughout the episode, the discussion is:

• Candid—no shying from controversial subjects or personal confession
• Scriptural—deep dives into biblical metaphors and doctrine
• Colloquial and Relatable—plenty of humor, family stories, and pop culture references
• Passionate—the Robertsons express urgent concern about the consequences of cultural confusion on love and sexuality
• Hopeful—emphasizing redemption, new birth, and the possibility of generational blessing

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Final Takeaway

The Robertson family calls listeners to reject society’s prevailing narrative (“gaslighting”) about love, sex, and the self—and to instead rediscover the sacrificial, generative, and divinely authored pattern of agape love. In their view, true flourishing—individually, relationally, and generationally—comes only by embracing Christ’s radical model of giving oneself away so that others might live.

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Transcript

[Jason]

So good, so good, so good.

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[Jason]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Christian]

Welcome back to Unashamed. I do want to remind you guys, we do a podcast every Friday for Hillsdale and it's John, Luke and Christian and Zach and I. Zach, where do you. Where do you go to sign up for the courses? Because we encourage people to take the courses with us and then listen along with our podcast.

[Luke]

Yeah, we're at unashamed for hillsdale.com. they're in there free and so it's good context to too, because now we last podcast, we brought it Philo and Jace, you were kind of randomly studying him as well. We were doing. I brought him up, but you were already kind of on your little own rabbit hole.

[Jason]

Notice a philosopher named Philo who predominantly used the Greek word for love, which friendship. Which is what? Where they get Philadelphia. There's a lot of Phil. Philio.

[Christian]

Yeah. And that's the brotherly love Jason said he should have been. He should have been a heavy Jew

[Luke]

instead of a Hellenistic heavenistic versus Hellenistic.

[Jason]

I thought that was funny, but clever.

[Christian]

It took five minutes to get.

[Jason]

No, I thought it was a great point that I did not come up with on my own. But they said the Greek philosophers didn't use what became the Greek word for the ultimate love, which is agape. And it was rarely used until Jesus got here and then all of a sudden.

[Christian]

Yeah, that was breaking news to me. Jason. I did not know that.

[Jason]

I did not someone wrote a book about that. I'm sorry, I can't remember who that was. I didn't read the book. But they said that was in the book. And I think it was like an Italian scholar noticed that. And I just thought it was awesome because, you know, I had this song stuck in my head. I want to know what love is. And I told you about all the Google search.

[Christian]

That was every 80s song, right?

[Luke]

That was good.

[Jason]

Well, that one is stuck in my head. What was the other one that I'm all, oh, love is in the Air. Is that a song? Yeah. And I have a new one because I thought, oh, I'm going to do a great podcast segment because from my childhood, my dad listened to rock and roll every day, all day in the duck call shop. So I have all these songs in my head. And one of them he loved was Al. See if you remember this. Love is like oxygen. Love is like oxygen.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Now, my dad liked it because of the guitar run, which went something like Da na na done. But when I looked up the lyrics of that song, I was. I was kind of embarrassed that. I mean, I'm glad I didn't listen to the words of the song. But I thought, okay, this is stupid because it's like if you get too much, you get too high and not enough and you're gonna die. They say, oh, that's it, that's it. Let's sing a song about that. So they repeat that line over and over. But who is that?

[Luke]

Who?

[Jason]

I don't think that's biblical. Defined love by Jesus. Because you can't get enough of this.

[Christian]

And high is love for us. So what did. So I want to know what love is. That's Foreigner. I thought. I remember that from 84.

[Jason]

Love is like Oxygen is Sweet. The name of the band late 70s.

[Christian]

I always like Tina Turner. What's love got to do with it?

[Luke]

What's love got to do with it?

[Jason]

Which was point is, everybody's looking for love in all the wrong places.

[Christian]

That's what Lisa uses. Lisa uses that in her testimony. She said, you ever heard that? Mickey Gilly's own Looking for Love and all the wrong faces. Looking for love in too many faces. Apparently. That's the next lesson. I didn't know.

[Jason]

But I mean, I thought I had an epiphany noticing that the first time love is mentioned, it was in a sacrificial context. You have the evil one presenting himself early in creation, when two humans that God created, male and female to become one flesh. Well, that's when he entered upon the scene, and he's never left that alone. I mean, you're thinking about. In our culture, there is a. There is an attack on children, I mean, which is just fascinating to me. From the spiritual forces of evil. You just think about where our culture dividing lines are.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Jason]

I mean, killing children, which they say, not a child in a mother's womb. Well, what is it? What is it? I mean, it's just so ridiculous to me that this is even a debate that it's a human being. It's just a small human. But I think that shows you where the attack is. And even by marriage and even this revolution of. Of having women outside the home and all this. What about the kids? What are we doing?

[Christian]

Think about the. The attempt to take away just the human part of us and who we are. Because we've advanced now in technologies where you can have a pill that you can send anywhere in the world and to anybody in the world, and there's very little being done to regulate it at all. Where basically, like, you take a pill, like, for, you know, ibuprofen, for a headache. You take a pill because you're pregnant to get rid of a living human being. And it's just like the same. The. The idea is. But, yeah, that's just. You know, what you do? You're just. That's a problem. And it's like a headache. You know, you just got to take a pill and take care of it. But it's so much deeper than that. We know that. I mean, this is the person, as you said.

[Jason]

Well, that's what I'm saying. That's not love. No, that's not love. That is the opposite.

[Luke]

Because if you. Well, the. The. Because the byproduct of. Of least the physical. The physical love connection in. In the. In the marriage bed is life. I mean, that. That's literally how life happens, is you have two people coming together in one flesh, and then they reproduce, reproduce more life. And you understand if you start to start thinking about yourself, to think about the intention, the purpose, the design of even the human body and how everything functions in this way, then all of a sudden you understand why the evil one wants to shut it down. The point of humanity, the vocation of humanity, the job that we were given to do, it's another way of saying that, like, what am I supposed to be doing here? Genesis 1:28. Be fruitful and multiply. Subdue the earth and fill it up. I mean, that's. It's.

[Christian]

It.

[Luke]

That is the Call. And so there's a reason why I think the evil one attacks sexuality. And he also attacks through obviously, the right to even live. He goes there primarily, and that's where most of the emphasis is. Is put, because that is the epicenter of what it means to be human. So if, If. If the evil one can actually tear that down and he can turn sexuality being something that is primarily used for reprod. Reproducing instead of. It could be something that you consume for your own just whatever you're on in the moment, then he can actually thwart the entire purpose of humanity. And that's that. That is kind of what the. The big fight's about. If you want to say. If you want to say it's a fight. I mean, I think it is. It's like that's the battle that we're up against. And then. And then we're. We've been so inundated with a different story about sexuality that it's really difficult for any of us, even those raised in the church, to access the story that God. That God has written, the one that is actually true. It's hard for us to access that.

[Jason]

But.

[Luke]

But through the power of the Holy Spirit, we can. And we can actually experience what love is. And God's called us in to that. And so I think that's. That's so important. If you could wrap it up and what is. What is to tell us? What's the intention? What's the design?

[Christian]

But Zach, even.

[Jason]

Even.

[Christian]

You're so right. Even. Think about it in terms of how in culture, I mean, we've seen a pretty. It happened quickly where we. Even the terminology, because words matter. We would call two people together in a relationship, in a covenant relationship especially. We called it making love, which is a great term for it is it's two people that love each other and they're making love. When that happens, you know, they do produce something. They produce a birth, and then there's more love and there's excitement and there's this idea that it just goes generationally. And then somewhere along the way, we quit calling it that and they just started calling it sex. So then it could be with anybody, whether covenant or not, any relationship, male to male, female to female. But yeah, that's still. But we get away from the love aspect of it. I'm not saying that from their perspective, love may not be there, but even our terminology changed. And then the evil one just keeps winning. The further this gets away from the will of God, and then it just destroys and just is catastrophic in the results that you see. And it's so, so much bad happens instead of the idea God is love. And he says, here, make some of that. So let's be real. Owning a handgun for self defense comes with a huge responsibility. You want it secure, but you also want it accessible when it matters the most. And that's where one of our sponsors, Stopbox Pro from Stopbox USA comes in. Jase, you have the product there in front of you.

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[Luke]

Such a good point. When you read Ezekiel 23, there's a passage in there about the, these two sisters that they were, they were lusting after, after these Assyrian warriors. And it's a picture of Israel is what it's a picture of. But, but the, the metaphor that's used is these two sisters and it's, you know, I mean, Chase mentioned in the last episode how graphic Song of Solomon was. If you want to read something super graphic, and I mean graphic, go to, just go, I mean go read Ezekiel 23:20 and you read this whole story and what you actually see is the progression of her sexuality. And in the end of it, she, they were brutally raped and murdered. It was the end of love. The thing that she gave herself to, ended up taking her life. And it was the most brutal ending. And that's why you see that for Israel. That was a story of Israel, but that really is all of our story. If we're not, you know, somehow, if the Holy Spirit doesn't intervene in us, this is our, this is where we end up at. And I think that. So we have to talk about what real love is. Real love is not being taken over by lust and just being consumed by the consumption of another human being. It actually is about the mingling of souls or the, to borrow from Matt Chandler's book, or the union of souls. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's becoming one. It reflects the very nature of God.

[Christian]

Well, and think about Jason. In the last podcast, Jayce went to mark and Mark 12, and where Jesus was talking about the idea of love being one, one God, and then that love that then goes to one another. And again, you see that no more closely than you do in the relationship, in the covenant of marriage, because that is when we become one, you know, two become one. And so, in essence, we're striving after the same relationship that God has with us, that we strive to have with Him. And then we aim that to another person. And for the first time, we get the ability to create like God created, because we create life. And then that life is born and we get to have that love come back for us. And that love that goes to a child, I mean, what's more loving than a little baby that you have to care for? And so this, it keeps going back to this idea about being born and being born again. So you see how all these metaphors come together. Whether you're talking about Israel and God or they're talking about us and God and being reborn or us in marriage, it's the same concept over and over. And the one common denominator of destruction is the evil one. And then when we sin and we follow his will and our own will instead of the will of God, that's when things start to break down at any level, at a personal level, at a relationship level, at any level.

[Luke]

And when you put any parameter around that, I think the accusation that you'll get from the world is, you can't tell me what to do. You can't tell me what to do with my own sexuality. And the answer is, yeah, you do whatever you want. I mean, God's answer is, do whatever you want to do. I mean, he doesn't stop us from acting out in any way that we want to act out. God's like, you do what you want to do. And if that's what you want to go do, then go do that. But what God's saying is, but if you want the abundant life, this is the pathway. And you may not want that. We can't force that on people, right? I mean, people can. They're going to do what they're going to do. But God's offering us something that's much more fulfilling because he's actually saying, I'm going to connect you with your actual purpose and the way I've designed you and I've created you with the intention that you would be in relationship with me. What is the two greatest commands? I've created you with the intention that one, you would love me. You'd love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. We would be in right relationship. And then as a. As a byproduct of that, you would love one another and you would be in relationship with one another. I want you to experience the fullness of what I am speaking as if I'm God here. I want you to experience the fullness of what it's like inside the inner life of God. You may not want that. You know what I mean? And if you don't want that, then you can go choose hell and you can choose the other. The other route. But the question is, why would you do that?

[Christian]

Well, it's a good point, because you come up with this idea that a lot of times you'll hear sort of in the protest world is, you know, we don't want to be tolerated, we want to be celebrated. And the idea is, you can't tell me what I'm doing is wrong. Which my retort is always, well, I can tell you, you just, you don't have to believe it if you don't want to. That's up to you. But I can tell you it is wrong and there will be a price to be paid. And you can't tell me what.

[Luke]

It's not true. I mean, I think that's the way I frame it up. That's not true. Now they may say what's true for me. And I say, okay, then go. Go do what you're going to do. I mean, I don't feel really a burden to, like, enforce, you know, what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me on anybody. Mainly because when I read the Apostle Paul, he says that the natural mind cannot accept the things of the Spirit. So my, my goal in even talking about this stuff, like, if I'm in like, like an open setting with non believers I'm going to share with them the truth of God's word. But at the same time they're like, that doesn't make any sense to me. I'd be like, of course that, yeah, I'm explaining to you the things of spirit.

[Christian]

Well, you can't make somebody believe. But, but, but it, it is still truth, still true. Well, it's like saying there is no God. No, there is a God if you choose whether you believe him or not. But he's still there whether you believe in him or not.

[Luke]

That's true.

[Jason]

That's why the irony of all this, which is why I said if, you know, if I had to go with one definition of that, Agape love, which Jesus redefined the word when he was on the planet. You know, live a life of love like Jesus, which is why when you read the red letters, there are a lot of great characters in the Bible and you could get some pointers in how to do different things. But when it comes to love, he is the model. It is God's love in human form, which we are humans. So if you are trying to figure out what love is, but over and over the Bible writers say in the context of love, here's what love is. This is how we know Jesus gave himself up for others. So if you just read the definition, if you googled agape love, just listen to this. It is the highest form of love, selfless, unconditional and sacrificial. Defined as a deliberate choice to seek another's will, to seek another's well being over one's own rather than a fleeting emotion. Rooted in Greek, it is often called God level love. Focusing on action, empathy and grace regardless of merit or return. Well, that's quite the definition.

[Luke]

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[Jason]

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[Luke]

Yeah, we love the Cozy earth bamboo sheets and the pajamas. Also had their Bubble cuddle blanket. I think we all have that.

[Christian]

Yeah. Well Zach, what I love about it is the, I connect it to rest because my favorite things are the sheets and also the pajamas as you mentioned. And so I connect that to my rest. I mean that's, that's my best time to need comfort and I love it. They fight over the blanket at my house as well.

[Luke]

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[Jason]

So the irony of all this is why I said about the culture and the evil and attack in that first marriage is because these lifestyles in our culture that have rationalized, oh I was born that way or it's my choice or you know, these different arguments that people come up with, these things end in death. So I heard an interesting sermon by Tim Mackey and the reason I listened to it because of the title it said love is not a black hole. I thought, oh gotta gotta go listen to that. And so he equated the scientific phenomenon which because science just tells you how things work. So we have these black holes in our universe which if you go down that rabbit hole, let me just go ahead and spoiler alert, they have no idea. But all they know is is that anything that goes into it is gone into oblivion. It doesn't come, it just sucks up energy. Not even light can function there.

[Luke]

And so there's one thing that there's one thing that can come out. What it's called Hawking radiation.

[Jason]

Well, they say that's the cure for black holes. Yeah, I saw that term but that's the only thing. More heat than I got. Yeah, that's more heat than I got.

[Luke]

But the point, but the point remains that a black hole sucks in everything around it into what Just oblivion and a singularity.

[Jason]

Yeah. And it ends in destruction and whatever said thing is. And so you see, there's point where love is. You got one man, one woman. It multiplies. Generations happen. It's a contagion. And God is love. So it's kind of the opposite of a black hole, which is a good rule of thumb when you're trying to figure out these cultural issues. Does it. Does it lead to death and extinction and destruction? I mean, think about the. Speaking of graphic stories, the Proverbs 7 about warning, about the adulterous wife. I remember my dad, he would. I mean, bring that up because the story is so. It has all that camouflage of a guy. Here's a young man in Proverbs 7. You can read it in your own time. But he's just walking down the street. It's about dark. Of course, you're like, why is a young man walking down the streets about dark? Well, he's looking in the windows and he's seeing who's out. And here comes. Out comes this woman dressed like a prostitute. This is verse 10 of Proverbs 7. With crafty intent she lurks on the streets, in the squares, at every corner, she lurks. She took hold of him and kissed him. And with a brazen face, she said, I have fellowship offerings at my house. I have fulfilled my. So I came out to meet you. I looked for you and I found you. I mean, look, what guy wouldn't like this? You're the one I've been looking for.

[Christian]

This sounds like one of the websites.

[Jason]

This is mingle.

[Christian]

We're mingling.

[Jason]

Yeah. She's dressed with crafty intent. What does that mean? She doesn't have any clothes on. She's accentuating her positives. And then now I found you. And now look, I've covered my bed with colored linens. It's nothing about what we're doing in the bed. Look, I just come look at my bed. You're not going to believe I just

[Christian]

got a new pillow set. I want you to see colors and

[Jason]

the linens and the sheets. Look. And I've actually put perfume on my bed.

[Christian]

Oh, boy.

[Jason]

Look, here's why I wanted to read this. Proverbs 7, 18. Come, let's drink deep of love till morning let's enjoy ourselves with love. So here's one case where the word love I don't think is laying down your life and looking at someone else's interest in front of your own. And here's the key line that should make you run my Husband's not at home.

[Christian]

Oh, boy.

[Jason]

He's gone on a long journey. He took his purse filled with money and will not be home till full moon. With persuasive words, she led him astray. She seduced him with her smooth talk. And then all of a sudden, this story takes a turn for the worse. It gets graphic in a violent way. All at once, he followed her like an ox going to the slaughter, like a deer stepping into a noose.

[Christian]

Here's an alternate word that's a buck in the.

[Jason]

Oh. It says, the meaning of this Hebrew word is uncertain the noose. Till an arrow pierces his liver like a bird darting into a snare or coming into decoys. You know what's fixed at boom boom, boom little, knowing it will cost him his life.

[Christian]

I said, that Jason, that big buck that Jay's always looking for, is when he's chasing that doe, is when he comes out across that road.

[Luke]

When later was about 16 or 17, see this little boy that was liking her. And we were at the lake, and I watched her everywhere he would go at the lake. She'd fought. He'd follow her around, like, just, like, right behind, everywhere she went. And I said, hey. I won't say his name because he may listen to the podcast. I said, hey, come here real quick. Let me. I want to ask you a question. And he said, yeah. Yes, sir, Mr. Dasher. I said, do you know anything about deer hunting? He said, yeah, I know a little bit about it. I said, when do you know when the best time of year to kill a deer? If you want to kill you a buck, when's the best time? He said, I don't know. And he started naming months. I said, I'm not talking about months. I'm talking about what season. He didn't. He didn't understand where I was going. I said, when they're in the rut. And I just. And I just. I just stopped and I paused, and he's looking at me like, you know what that means? I said, when they're. When they're chasing the female, that's the. That's when you kill. That's when you kill him. Yeah, I just. I just stopped. I said, don't chase my daughter around. But I tell. Yeah, but I tell Max and all my boys that, too. I said, guys, I mean, this is. I mean, that's. It's right there in the Bible, too, apparently.

[Jason]

Well, that's why I'm reading this, because I wanted to bring up an obscure love song that I think will Help followers of Jesus, especially men. And here it comes. In Proverbs 7, there's a love song that. And I mean love in the context of Proverbs 7, where she said, let's drink deep of love till morning. So the song was introduced thousands of years ago, and then it came out. Let me see when this song came out before I introduce it. I'm trying to get you on the edge of your seat.

[Christian]

I'm there.

[Jason]

Do you know what it is?

[Christian]

I do not.

[Jason]

In verse 27 of chapter 7, he gets to the end of the story, after the deer, you know, you got a arrow in your liver. You know, when you went to the perfume bed with the husband. Not there. And it started when you were just looking, you know, walking along. Started when you. Because that's how all these stories start, you know, when we talk about divorce and adultery and pornography and all. It started when you started walking down the street about dark looking. So let me see when this song came out, 2000.

[Christian]

It's like one guy said a long time ago, James, when you're nowhere in particular, you're somewhere in general.

[Jason]

So here's the. Here's the love song. It was released in 1979. I was 10 years old.

[Christian]

I was a freshman in high school.

[Jason]

Well, you might have been on this.

[Christian]

I probably was.

[Jason]

So he gets to verse 26. He said, Many are the victims she has brought down her slain are a mighty throng. And then here's the love song that came out based on this verse. Her house is a highway to hell. So you never realize that AC dc I'm on the highway. That is a Bible verse in the context of the wrong definition of what love is.

[Luke]

So you guys know I got five kids, which is. That's a lot. And having a big family like that, it'll make you pay attention real quick to where your money's going, especially when it comes to your healthcare, because traditional health insurance just keeps climbing up. It's starting to feel like we're getting boxed in. That's why my family and I switched to Christian Healthcare Ministries, and we haven't looked back.

[Christian]

When we went through Lisa's breast cancer, it was just a bunch of, you know, out of network stuff and all these other things. And, I mean, we were. We would have been in a really big bind, but we were helped. We were prayed for, and the cost sharing made a big difference for us.

[Luke]

What CHM is, it's a Christian alternative to health insurance, and it comes in about half the cost, and it immediately freed up some Real room in our budget. You know, we get to choose the doctor, the surgeon, or the hospital that actually makes sense for our family. And since CHM is a non profit ministry, I'm not paying into a profit machine at one of these big insurance companies that doesn't really care about me. I'm actually joining a community of believers who share each other's medical burdens through giving and prayer. And that aligns with how I want to lead my family. So CHM has four flexible, low cost programs for every stage of life. You can enroll or switch at any time. Plus you get access to CHM's care solutions for virtual appointments, prescription savings, surgery support, and much more. For us, it's been a smart move both financially and spiritually. See why so many believers are taking a leap of faith with the Christian alternative to health insurance. Start today by visiting chministries.orgunashamed and use promo code UNASHAMED for a 50% credit towards your first month. That's chministries.orgunashamED and use promo code unashamed.

[Christian]

Jace and it's so, it's so amazing that you said all this because that is exactly, that is exactly the time period. And the exact scenario that led me down the path away from Christ was in that 1979. I don't, you know, it wasn't the song itself, but riding on a school bus and a girl walked on the bus and I had seen her the year before and she walked on the bus that year and she looked a lot different. And then I started thinking a lot different. And that started it. I'm telling you, I can remember it. I can remember when the evil intent awakened in my heart kind of.

[Luke]

Well, here, here's what's interesting as you're reading that. What I was thinking of, I was thinking of how even what we're saying, I mean, think about the absurdity, the absurdity of this. What we are saying right here is controversial. Like, it's very controversial. It's kind of stuff to get you canceled. And you think, well, why? There has to be a limit to what you're. You have to put guardrails around it. What we're saying is, is that the guardrails aren't arbitrary guardrails. They're actually. The guardrail is what fits into reality. And, and the way that you can test that is what you just said. Jace, very simply, just ask this question. Does it lead to a death work or does it lead to a life work? And if you say no to the death work, yes to the life work. You're going to live a life. That's the whole thing. This whole thing is about living and living life to the fullest. So just ask yourself the question, what's the end result? Isolation, death and loneliness. Or is it abundance, community and life? And if you choose the latter, you're going to find yourself in what we call the kingdom of God.

[Christian]

But you nailed it. Therein lies the hypocrisy. And since Jace brought up acdc, who I quite love during this era of my life, you got you shook me all night long song. And then compared to highway to Hell song, which is hypocritical in its own nature, as you're describing, because what happens is when you. When you're unfettered, when you throw off anything and call it love, then you wind up finding yourself on a path of destruction. But then you want to curb other people that you don't agree with.

[Luke]

Yeah, we're being gaslit. And. And so think about that. That's. That's what the evil one does. He got. He gaslights us. But we. We talked about this in. I'm not sure if it's aired yet, but in one of the episodes on Hillsdale with ancient Christianity, the professor. What's his name again? Professor Calvert. Calvert, he was talking about in the Garden of Eden, and I'd never thought about this in the Garden of Eden, when you got the first original sin, basically Adam was there, but Eve was the one who was actually deceived and took the fruit and ate it first. And that's one of the things that Paul brings up later on in the Bible when he talks about gender roles. He says Adam was formed first. And I think he says something like, it was Eve who became deceived and ate the fruit. And so he's anchoring in kind of these different gender roles in the creation event and also the event of the Fall. And I never really understood what that second part meant when he said. He says Eve was the one that became deceived. Because I'm like, well, Adam was. You know, he was there too. He was in on it. Why does. Seems like Paul's blaming Eve? That's not actually what he's saying. And I didn't understand this until, like, literally last week when we were doing this, this. That lecture. Adam received the. The instruction from God before Eve was ever even on the scene. So all that existed was Adam and God. And God said to Adam, you can eat from any tree in the garden except for one. That was the instruction to Adam, not Eve. To Adam, then fast forward. Eve arrives on the scene. God creates a suitable helper for Adam. Then the devil comes and he says, hey, did God say that you can't eat from any tree in the garden? Now, Eve was the one that responded. But Adam, think about it. He wasn't there when that conversation was even had between Adam and Adam was the one who fell. Adam did not protect his wife. Adam did not protect her. He knew. He, he knew he was the one that had the conversation with God. And he should have said, well, hold on, actually, hold on, no, that's not what happened. Or he could have gone back to God, said God, the devil's here telling us this. Like, like that's not what you meant when you, like, what's going on here? But he didn't, he did nothing. He sat back, he abdicated his responsibility. He let, he fed his wife to the, to the wolves and boom, sin enters into the world. And that's when death entered in itself. So I think that that's interesting when you start thinking about how God set this whole order up. It's not. I mean, this is the, the order is actually set up for human flourishing. Like, this is actually the way to human flourishing. So if you want to have a conversation about that, that'd be an interesting conversation. But you ever notice that no one wants to have a conversation about what leads to human flourishing. What people want to have a conversation about is, you can't limit me. It's the great gaslighting.

[Christian]

I agree. And I've always thought that my opinion was that Adam was waiting to see what was going to happen to you, that he really wanted as much as she did, but he threw her under the bus to let her try and see what it. Because, you know, the concept was which would you die? And when she didn't fall over dead, then he ate some. So I firmly believe it's a violation of the first order. And that was to protect, you know, he was, he was supposed to protect the garden.

[Luke]

That was, that was the original sin.

[Christian]

That was exactly right.

[Luke]

That was it. That's the first one.

[Christian]

Yeah, agreed.

[Jason]

Well, what I wanted to say is, you know, this is a, this gets me upset because, you know, he's in first John getting back there when he's like, he brings up that being born and being born again, which we talked about it being little children and it's love is woven all through this. We read that first John 4, 7. Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. What upsets me is all this stuff leads to death. The not knowing what the real definition of love is or where it comes from, which we got the answers here. This self sacrificial giving up, well, it sounds like death. And so when you think about being born again and you throw in the idea of baptism, you know, God's given us an opportunity to die, to give up ourself, which is the definition of love. And 100%, Jesus's death on a cross and his resurrection saved us 100%. So you get that opportunity though, and think Romans 6 or there's numerous passages about you can give your life up, you can give your life to him. And these religious people start saying, well, I don't know if you have to do that. I don't know. And I'm like, it is infuriating to me. Hey, where some debate, some debate came up about whether you should do that or not or what if you don't. And all these questions and I'm like, wait a minute, I've been given the opportunity to participate in God's love, which the definition is giving your life up. That's why I read those verses where it says, live a life of love as Jesus loved us, who gave himself up for us. So you hear the story of Jesus and you're like, I want to give my life to him. And you go up to the pastor and he's like, well, you don't have to do that. Well, no, he wouldn't say that. But when you read the Bible for what it says, you have an opportunity to do this. And that's why I think he chose to do that. Where you literally humble yourself and say, yeah, I'm reenacting this in water. I'm going to die so that I can live. Which is what Jesus did for all of us. That's exactly how he defined love.

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[Luke]

Hey, I think it's even more than I mean, we have a hard time with the language. It's more than the way he defined love. It's the way love is because it's who he is. And so when you said something right there, this is a deep thought. This is a very deep thought. I probably can't even articulate it. You said about giving your life up, and you said that sounds a whole lot like death.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Luke]

And we're sitting there saying that it's life, and you're like, well, it sounds like death. So how do you reconcile that? Here's how you reconcile it. It's the resurrection. The Christ, his resurrection. What it. It's more than just giving us like an escape hatch out of, you know, off the planet. That's not. It's more than just like putting life into my. My physical body. What with his resurrection, what it actually accomplishes is it's actually showing you that, no, actually dying to self is not actual death. To give your life away is not actual death. Now, if there was no resurrection. Yeah. Paul says we are to be pitied more than all men. Go out and consume as much as you can possibly get on this side because it's all you got. Go get after it. But if there is a resurrection of the dead, if that is true, this is the whole point of Apostle Paul's teaching. If there is a resurrection of the dead, then now we can actually enter into the way. We can actually live our life. As Christ lived his life, we can actually embody the same attitude of Christ Jesus, who being in very nature God did not even consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing. Taking on the very nature of a servant being found in appearances of man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death and even death on a cross. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place. So that Philippians 2 passage that Paul's writing about, the reason why we can live a sacrificial life very simply is because Christ rose from the dead. He conquered it. And so we too can conquer it. And now we can actually give our life away without fear that it's going to end in death. It's going to actually in quite the opposite.

[Christian]

Well, it's interesting because I had a perfect illustration of this yesterday. A man came up to me and his wife and they had their youngest son with them, who a grown man and married and was also at the marriage refresh they were at. And he said, I was just going to tell you, this has just been two of the best weekends of my life. He said, I just got baptized last Sunday here. And I said, oh, congratulations, you know, new birth. He said, oh, you just, you don't know how to have half of it. Then he gave me about a five minute, you know, quick recap of his life growing up with an alcoholic father, abuse, all things that were there. Then he abused his wife and his kids and was just a terrible person and, you know, was becoming an alcoholic himself and then finally realized that somewhere along the way. And first he's just tried to be better, but he never fully surrendered and he finally did. And so he was just telling me with tears in his eyes about how this, what this weekend had meant to him because now he's hearing things in a different perspective. And I told him, I said, it's because you're a newborn, you're new, and now you have the Holy Spirit, and for the first time you're listening with ears and you're seeing with eyes that see things differently. And that's why it's penetrating your hearts so, so fully. And then I looked at his son and I was like, and you are the benefit of this. And he said, I've learned more from my sons than I ever did for my fathers. And I said, well, praise God for that. But now look what's going to happen. Because they see their dad surrendering and they see that's the opportunity for them as they go forward. I said, what you did, brother, was you broke the generational curse that the evil one has put on your family. And you're saying, I'm not going to be this. And your sons are already ahead of. Now you're going to.

[Jason]

You don't.

[Christian]

There's no telling where this family is going to be, you know, three, four generations down the road. This is how it works. But it doesn't happen until somebody goes into a grave and comes out new. That's how it has to happen.

[Jason]

I got to read this now. So Romans 6 where it said we died to sin, how can we live in any longer? Six, two. Don't you know that all of us who are baptized into Christ, baptized in his death, we were raised through the glory of the Father so that we may live a new life. So then he gets to verse 8 and he says, now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. Now, he's already said in verse five that if we died like this, we'll be united with him in his resurrection. So I believe in verse eight he's talking about, now what's left of your Life being born. And now you have the opportunity of love. And to Zack's point, verse nine. Because we know that Christ, since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again. Death no longer has mastery of him. The death, he died. He died to sin once for all. But the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. So when you. When you compare that to where he would later say in Romans chapter 12, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, this is the way you worship. Don't conform any longer to the pattern of the world. Well, this sounds familiar with 1 Corinthians 6. And this kind of goes back to when Jesus said he would die or and be raised three days. And he linked that to the temple. Destroy this temple and I'll come back in three days. Watch what he says in First Corinthians 6. Kind of with the highway to hell in the back of our mind. He says, everything is permissible. Verse 12. But not everything's beneficial. Food for the stomach, verse 13. And stomach for food. But God will destroy them both. And then he starts talking about the body. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, which would be sex. That's not right. It's not moral. Which implies there is a sex. That is right. And he's fixing to bring that up. The body is not meant for sexual immorality. Watch this statement. But for the Lord. Which is why he said in Ephesians 5, Live a life of love. Just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, so we give ourselves to the Lord by His power. God raised the Lord from the dead and he will raise us also. Same language as Romans 6. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Should I go down the highway to hell? Oh, no. Never. Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, watch what he brings up. The two will become one flesh. Now we're back to the garden and the creation. And that's where the evil one showed up. But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. And this is so profound. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body. But he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit? You're talking about a verse that's been missed in churches. I've heard more sermons about don't smoke because your body's a temple of the Holy Spirit. You know, smoking will kill you. So you can make a case for it, but don't go here and make that case. He's not talking about that. He's talking about one thing. A mis definition of what love is. It's that Proverbs 7, you're, you're going out there by dark or you're getting on the, you know, Internet and doom scrolling looking for love in all the wrong places and in all the wrong faces. And you ain't looking at anybody's face on the Internet.

[Christian]

No.

[Jason]

You know, you're looking from the neck down. But I do think when he brings up that we're the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you've received from God, you are not your own. You were bought at a price. Therefore God. Therefore honor God with your body. What's he talking about, bought at a price? That's the definition of love. God showed you. This is how we know what love is. He laid down his life and that, that is what we're called to do. And I think it starts in our marriage and in our family because if you want to be a father, guess what it's going to take? Sacrifice. You want to be a mom as soon as you give birth, guess what you're fixed to do for the rest of your life. You're going to be a living sacrifice because that's what it's all giving. That's why that sermon about the black hole, it was a good analogy, you know.

[Luke]

Well, I think that's, that's a, a good verse to end on because I think where we've not equipped people to have this conversation, the church is, we have, we've, we've honestly, unfortunately bought into an eschatology that is not biblical. Your body is a temple. Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Not. We're not waiting on something out in the future. No, no, no, you're. The Bible says your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. And what that means is your body is the connecting place of heaven and earth where God actually dwells. Now, God lives in your human body. Every other sin a man commits is outside of his body. Except for the one that you mentioned. The misappropriated quest for love, except for sexual immorality, all other dipping, smoking, not good for you. Those aren't sins against the body.

[Christian]

Exactly.

[Luke]

Apostle Paul is very clear. The only sin a man commits against his body is this one. And this is why it's so important because what it does is it actually diminishes your ability to actually find the oneness of God, to find oneness with God. You were created for a purpose, to be with God. And so if you want that integration then you're going to have to submit to the revelation that God's given you of how to find that integration. That simple.

[Christian]

That's good. We're out of time. We will continue this discussion on love and the reason why we're spending so much time here is because John does. And there's some still profound things to learn in this text which are great. So we'll pick it up next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast and don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.