Ep 1298 | She Left a Movement She Once Believed Was Christian … Millions Still Belong

Summary

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Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Ep 1298 | She Left a Movement She Once Believed Was Christian … Millions Still Belong
March 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Unashamed features the Robertsons in conversation with special guest Melissa Dougherty—a Christian apologist and author who left the New Thought movement (a popular, quasi-Christian metaphysical system). The discussion focuses on Melissa’s journey out of New Thought, the spiritual dangers and pervasiveness of this movement, and the message of her new allegorical children’s book, The Day That Made the Way. As always, the Robertsons blend humor, storytelling, and deep faith as they explore spiritual truth, apologetics, and the importance of light and transformation.

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Episode Highlights & Key Discussion Points

1. Classic Robertson Banter and Family Dynamics

• [00:48–06:55] The show opens with characteristic playful banter, family anecdotes, and stories about Louisiana traditions, such as crawfish farming and the chaotic tales that ensued from it.
• Notable Quote:
  Jace: “If oysters are an aphrodisiac, crawfish are a fighter.” (05:31)
• Several of the brothers share hilarious and harrowing crawfish farm memories, including almost dying from snake bites and blood poisoning. The underlying theme is resilience, resourcefulness, and always finding humor amidst adversity.

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2. Introducing Melissa Dougherty: From New Thought to Christ

• [22:19] Melissa is welcomed as the special guest. She discusses living in New Mexico and explains her family's unique hobby—hot air ballooning.
• Jason jokes about Louisiana’s “hold my beer” mentality compared to more professional pursuits like balloon piloting.
• Notable Quote:
  Jace: “James comes from the land of ‘hold my beer and watch this.’” (24:31)

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3. Understanding the New Thought Movement

• [28:08–32:52]
  Melissa explains the difference between New Age and New Thought:
  • New Age: Eastern influences (Hinduism, Buddhism, chakras, reincarnation, energies, crystals, etc.)
  • New Thought: Metaphysical Christianity, “positive thinking,” the belief that words and thoughts create reality, and that you are essentially “divine.”
    • “It looks and sounds Christian… If I were to define New Thought in two words, it would be metaphysical Christianity.” (Melissa, 28:52)
    • Examples: “Name it and claim it,” “Christ-consciousness,” affirmations, Law of Attraction.
    • The self-help movement heavily borrows from New Thought.
  • The core deception: “When you look in the mirror, there’s a God staring back at you.” (Melissa, 32:52)

Notable Quotes:

• "It’s the positive thinking movement in America with Jesus as its mascot." (Melissa, 32:06)
• "You are God." (Jace, 38:01)
• "[New Thought is] going back to a conversation that happened in the garden… that was the ultimate lie: 'You will be like God.'" (Jace, 38:08)

Dangers and Spiritual Deception

• The Robertsons and Melissa discuss how seductive and widespread these ideas are, often cloaked in language that sounds biblical.
• Zach connects their experience in Asheville (“vortex city”) with many New Age converts to Christ, sharing the hope that comes from clarity in truth.
  “They do at least have a much more poignant longing for a kingdom that’s here… When they meet Christ, they’re like, ‘Oh, this is the one we were looking for.’” (Zach, 30:58)

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4. Apologetics and Discernment

• [28:19–29:19]
  Definitions:
  • Apologist: “A person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial.” (Jason, quoting)
  • Melissa lays out apologetics as knowing “what you believe and why you believe it,” using reason and biblical knowledge to defend the faith.
• The conversation returns to the importance of discernment in interpreting scripture versus personal feelings or supposed “hidden meanings.”
  • “Hermeneutics: understanding context vs. being the arbiter yourself—drawing meaning from how it feels to you.” (Melissa, 32:52)

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5. The Day That Made the Way: Children’s Allegory and the Power of Light

• [41:47–55:32]
  The heart of the episode focuses on Melissa’s newest children’s book, an allegory about redemption and light:
  • Written as an Easter allegory (Melissa’s favorite holiday), it tells the story of the “Sunders”—separated creatures longing for light and connection.
  • The book was a family project, with Melissa’s daughters helping design the characters.
  • CS Lewis Inspirations: The allegorical approach is compared to Lewis’s Narnia series or Pilgrim’s Progress for its lasting spiritual impact.
    • “I love it when you can create other people. I could never do that… It was very CS Lewis.” (Jace, 41:47)

Theme:

• Light/vs/dark as metaphors for spiritual truth and the choice to step into the light of Christ, not just after death, but now.
  • “Instead of waiting until eternity before we go into this light, it’s like, now.” (Jace, 47:08)

Memorable Quotes:

• “Don’t be afraid of the light… run to the light. You’re going to have this division within you, this fight, but go towards the light.” (Melissa, 45:57)
• “There’s so many lies out there… but there’s one truth.” (Melissa, 51:15)
• “Once you just rest in the story of Christianity… it was the story that led Lewis to Christ.” (Zach, 53:22)

Scriptural Parallels & Reflection:

• John 3:16 and beyond: Jesus as the light coming into the world; people loving darkness rather than light.
• “Are you scared of the dark? …Well, you’re not acting like it. …You’re scared of the light.” (Phil, as quoted by Jason, 47:08)

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Timestamps & Important Segments

| Time | Segment | Notes | |-------------|----------------------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:48–06:55 | Robertsons crack jokes, crawfish tales | Family dynamic banter; lessons from Louisiana culture | | 22:19 | Melissa Dougherty intro | Hot air balloons, New Mexico stories | | 28:08–32:52 | What is New Thought? | Definitions, dangers, and Melissa’s testimony | | 38:00–41:00 | The Idolatry at the Heart of New Thought| “You are God” and the original lie from Eden | | 41:47–46:32 | Introducing “The Day That Made the Way”| Why a children’s allegory; the message of light | | 47:08–50:13 | Living in the Light Now | Personal reflection; allegory’s impact on children | | 51:15–53:01 | Importance of Allegory & Story | How allegory shapes worldview and spiritual imagination | | 54:41–55:32 | How to get the book & find Melissa | Madetheway.com, Melissa’s social channels |

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Notable and Memorable Quotes

“It’s the positive thinking movement in America with Jesus as its mascot.”
— Melissa (32:06)

“You are God.”
— Jace (38:01)

“When you look in the mirror, there’s a God staring back at you. And that’s the secret.”
— Melissa (32:52)

“Don’t be afraid of the light… run to the light.”
— Melissa (45:57)

“Once you just rest in the story of Christianity… it was the story that led Lewis to Christ.”
— Zach (53:22)

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Resources & Where to Find More

• Melissa’s Book: madetheway.com
• Melissa Dougherty: Search “Melissa Dougherty” on YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook
• Unashamed Podcast: Subscribe for more family-based, biblical insight and spirited conversation

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Episode Takeaways

• Discernment is necessary—many “Christian-ish” beliefs are rooted in old metaphysical heresy.
• Story and Allegory are powerful tools for shaping worldview, especially for children.
• The call is to step into God's light now, not just some day in eternity.
• Apologetics starts with knowing not just what you believe, but why—and being able to lovingly explain biblical truth.
• Test all spiritual “movements” by scripture and the historic gospel—not by comfort, positivity, or what “feels right.”

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(This summary omits advertisements and non-content sections, remaining true to the original tone and robust, good-natured spiritual dialogue of the Robertson family.)

Transcript

[Melissa Doherty]

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[Jason]

I am unashamed.

[Zach]

What about you?

[Jace]

Welcome back to Unashamed. We had a little dust up here before we got going, but one day that'll be a podcast topic we've decided.

[Jason]

I think it's a family dynamic that every few days we must have an argument.

[Jace]

And I get tickled at the argumentative style because it's such a throwback to our parents, because I just remember all those years and all those holidays, it was just like what I just witnessed. And it's funny to me, but it's good. Guests here, we embarrassed ourselves.

[Zach]

Oh, we have guests.

[Jace]

Yeah. So JD turned 18 today.

[Jason]

We're gonna have to get them to sign a.

[Jace]

What do you call, non disclosure agreement. Yeah, you have to sign the NDA before you leave.

[Zach]

If I'd have known that, I wouldn't have been so sarcastic.

[Jace]

Now, so JD is turned 18 this week. So he's a young man officially. And his mom works with Lisa selling real estate. So they're here today witnessing what they just saw.

[Zach]

But I wonder, as we were doing, just. I wonder if Maddie. Maddie step in. She stepped in and said, all right, that's a. That's the bell. Round one.

[Jace]

Round one, we gotta record.

[Zach]

And then Chase goes, I think I won that round. I think I won that round. And then that started a whole nother. That started round two.

[Jace]

Yeah. Then it's who win?

[Zach]

So, Al, let me ask you, if. If nobody intervened, how long do you think me and Chase would sit here?

[Jace]

We would still be gone. It would go all morning. It's because I've seen these. I see. And then at some point it gets personal, you know, that we never got there, but at some point it would have gotten into personal attacks. That's. That's the only way you can really end it.

[Jason]

The reason those are helpful, though, is because I found those illuminating.

[Jace]

Yeah, because you understand now where. Why Zach is.

[Jason]

Yeah, I figured out, you know, the first problem is realizing there is a problem. And I'm like, oh, I think I figured something out here.

[Jace]

Well, Jason, that may be working towards Getting baptized again. So we'll see how that works out. We'll let. We'll let you know when we're ready to have that discussion known in public. So I feel like, man, yesterday we recorded podcasts. We rarely go back to back, and

[Jason]

you weren't here yet.

[Jace]

I wasn't even here.

[Jason]

So you made the drive last night.

[Jace]

So I got in at 3am the night before from the event or morning before from an event. Got up, we did yesterday's podcast, then I drove back home to be here for today. So I'm not sure where I am. I'm somewhere over the fruited plains, but my body is here.

[Jason]

You know what I found fascinating? It was 80 degrees yesterday, and this morning it was 29. Yeah.

[Jace]

How does this happen? This is the last of the cold

[Jason]

weather, I guess, because, yeah, it was springtime. Flowers.

[Jace]

Like, two days, it'll be 80 degrees again.

[Jason]

And then you're like, oh, wait, wow.

[Jace]

One last blast fire this morning. Is it hitting you today, Zach? Is it over there where y'?

[Jason]

All?

[Zach]

I got. I got a. I got a wool sweater on, so. If that tells you anything, the last time I wore this wool sweater was in a duck blind with Jace when we got ice apocalypse. So, yeah, it was.

[Jason]

You had that on and I didn't say anything.

[Zach]

I had it on underneath all my stuff.

[Jason]

He put it on. I was fixing to say. You could see that.

[Zach]

Yeah. Now, this is my. My bait. My base layer is a wool. Like a wool. Long underwear. And then I put this on, and then I got my jacket.

[Jason]

We've all. We all know the jacket, the abominable

[Zach]

snowman, but I did not get cold. I did not get cold.

[Jace]

You were layered. So, Jason, today ends your bachelor run.

[Jason]

Yeah. Yeah. I've been the lone wolf. Last night, I celebrated, and I went and got some crawfish and some shrimp, which was fantastic. I mean, that's why I like this time of year. I love LSU baseball, even though we're a work in progress this year. But we give a lot of grace when you're the defending national champion. So I'll throw that in. And we have crawfish. So I've actually eaten more crawfish this season than years past.

[Jace]

I saw some the other day. They look really big this year, the ones I saw.

[Jason]

But maybe that's why I was so frisky, because you eat a bunch of crawfish. You know, I got my painters out this morning when Zach started. Started spawning heresy. I just couldn't help it, you know,

[Jace]

if oysters Are an aphrodisiac crawfish or a fighter. A fighter.

[Zach]

It wasn't for Jay. Sorry. I was gonna say it wasn't heresy,

[Jason]

but look, I said that affectionately. Yeah, we'll. We'll. That's the verdict. Still out on that. But I actually want to bet the other night in another argument, because I threw this fact out that female crawfish has up to 800 young. And somebody said that's not true because they're thinking, one crawfish. How could one crawfish. Which. This wasn't exactly a Christian environment. So when they said, are you trying to tell me that one crawfish has 800? That's not even possible. And so you talking about a setup, I was like, well, I believe the Bible says with God all things are possible. Look it up. And somebody found a picture of about 800 little bitty ones on the end of a crawfish. And they're like, well, how many you think that is? They're like, wow, I never knew that was going on.

[Jace]

They thought they were just producing one crawfish at a time.

[Jason]

I think so.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And I'm like, no.

[Jace]

You know, taught us that dear old dad, but that. That was right out of life lessons.

[Jason]

So, I mean, I'm sure I could have looked that up and see. I think I will look it up.

[Zach]

Let's.

[Jason]

Let's see. I may be wrong on that, but I know they're not like a horse.

[Jace]

I do remember on the original show, which is one of the reasons why dad was always so funny to me. He was funny in a dad, like, not trying to be funny sort of way. But remember the episode Jace, where he did the birds and the bees lesson to Cole? I think it was Cole, wasn't it, that he was. And he used the crawfish as the example, and he was pointing out the male crawfish, and he said, and you see right there, cold man. That's what. In the business, they call that the tally whacker. That's. That's what he referred to it on the show, the tallywacker.

[Zach]

So.

[Jace]

So there's that. Do you find out?

[Jason]

I'm looking Al.

[Zach]

Yep.

[Jason]

Well, this says between 50 and 700 plus.

[Jace]

Well, that's quite the range.

[Jason]

What it says female crawfish can typically. Now, this is AI. So that's. They're just taking a collection.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Jason]

They say the average is 2 to 400, but it can be up to 800.

[Jace]

Yeah. Do you believe that Zach, you know, is going to take over the world I believe it.

[Zach]

I. I used to be in the crawfish business, and I was a crawfish farmer for a season.

[Jace]

Really?

[Jason]

What, two weeks or about three.

[Zach]

Three weeks. Yeah.

[Jace]

Was that. We were in the crawfish business. Did you work for.

[Zach]

Well, what happened was. What had happened was out by this guy I knew had a. This. They hunted this rice field out off of. Look at how it was a Highway 15. What's that? What's the one right out there?

[Jason]

That's it.

[Zach]

They. They duck hunted out there. We would go out there a few times a year with him. And so I don't know why he went out there and. But he said, man, he caught. He came back to the house and was like, you are to see the crawfish on this rice farm. He said, they're like all over the levees. I mean, everywhere. So we drove out there and literally, you drive down the Levy of Riceville and. And it was just like. Like this. I mean, millions of them.

[Jace]

Yeah. And so it's quite a scene when you see it.

[Zach]

Oh, it's like I'd never seen. I'd never seen anything quite like. They were huge.

[Jace]

It makes you want to go grab a net, start grabbing them up.

[Zach]

But we didn't have a net. So we went down to Phil's house and we told him what we saw. And then Phil was basically like, here's what you're going to do. He said, I've got 50 traps right out there in the yard. You're going to load those up in your truck, and you're gonna take it down there and you're gonna go get you some buffalo heads. He said, go run.

[Jason]

Those are fish. Not.

[Jace]

Not a buffalo. We didn't kill actual buffalo. Just so you know.

[Zach]

It's a fish. You say, throw your head.

[Jason]

I have to explain that because most people don't call buffalo fish. Buffalo.

[Jace]

I have a story that I tell about dad, and I say buffalo in it, and afterwards, if I don't clarify it, somebody will come and say, you mean, did your dad used to actually kill buffalo? No, it's a fish. It's a drum.

[Zach]

So I don't know about you guys, but as you have more kids, you know what else I've noticed happens is you get more gray hair. Yep. Not a lot, but I'm getting into my beard.

[Jace]

Maybe you just want to slow it down, Z. Yeah, slow it down.

[Zach]

One of our new sponsors is a company called Array. I got a thick beard, but. But I. You know, I was looking at old pictures. It used to be a lot thicker. You know, you probably think that graying is all genetics, that it's really only about 30% genetic. The rest is influenced by just lifestyle, environment, stress. I mean that's why you always say, oh man, you're giving me gray hair here. You tell your kids that. So it can change your scalp. Age is faster than the skin on your face. And array is like an anti aging care for your hair and your scalp. And over 300,000 people are already using it. Array's shower duo is an absolute game changer. It cleans gently, adds lightweight hydration, smooths coarse hair and leaves your hair soft and Shinier. In a 24 week independent study, 94% saw improved hair, 83% said it felt softer, and 77% notice fewer new gray hairs. The shower dew is the easiest place to start because you're already washing your hair anyways. Hora just upgrades your routine and if you want to go further, they've got a daily supplement and a scalp serum as well. Most people just cover up grades, but you can actually slow their progression. So for a limited time, listeners to our show, you get 15 off by using code [e-mail] just head on over to a r e y.com use code unashamed and you're all set. After you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support this show and tell them you heard about them here. It's a fish. And and so he said cut the heads off of them. Throw the heads in, in the, in the trap. And he gave us all the instructions and he said, and then you bring me back two sacks and you keep the rest. And that was his instruction. So we went out there and we put out those 40 traps. And I'm not kidding you, probably 30 minutes later I just picked one up. I waited out there in that rice field because about, you know, up up to your thigh deep, I picked that trap up and I mean slam full of crawfish and I picked up the next one, slam full. So we ended up, then we, we went down to the local shop there called Cormier's, which back then that was, I think that was about the only place in town you could just like.

[Jace]

Yeah, they were the original, yeah, that

[Zach]

was the original crawfish place. So then we started running a business. Jeff was in on it and 20, I mean we did not sleep for about two and a half weeks. And we just as many as we could get, we would go and sell them and then come and then We. And then we got done. We took all those traps back down to your dad's.

[Jace]

And as soon as you were flush with cash. So you got. Had you some beer money back in those days, I'm sure.

[Zach]

Oh, you know, a little beer money.

[Jace]

Then you were good.

[Zach]

Yeah, but then.

[Jace]

But still, Zach and Jeff was still working on their testimony back in those days.

[Zach]

Yeah, we were still working with that. No, actually, you know what?

[Jace]

No, we all cleared up. Okay.

[Zach]

Cleared up by then.

[Jace]

That makes me feel better.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Probably about the time we got into the farm, which lasted a couple years,

[Jace]

but that was after that. So Jace was. Jay spent one whole year. That was your. Right after you graduated high school. Crawfish. And you and Curly were the managers of the operation. And it was such a tough experience that Jase was actually ready to go to preaching.

[Zach]

Where was the farm at?

[Jace]

It was where. Where our property is now, ironically.

[Zach]

Y' all were. Y' all were farming crawfish.

[Jace]

Yeah, I did it for. We're talking. We're talking hundreds of traps that y' all did 40. Jace is doing probably what, five, 500

[Jason]

twice a day we ran them.

[Zach]

Would y' all get a bunch of them?

[Jace]

Oh, my goodness. They're sacks. And so we were selling them to Super. 1500 traps.

[Jason]

Zach.

[Jace]

They literally set up a boat in the store. And the crawfish that Jason Curly were catching or going in to the super. They were providing the supermarket with crawfish. And they would just pour them in this boat live. They're just crawling around there. And people would come and get them and buy.

[Jason]

I've shared this before. I don't know where you are. I mean, we.

[Zach]

I've never heard this.

[Jace]

It's like they went to. How many times y' all have to go to the hospital for that?

[Jason]

That's what let.

[Jace]

We.

[Jason]

Zach. I could have died.

[Jace]

That's what really almost died.

[Jason]

That's what really shut it all down.

[Jace]

They had blood poisoning because they were dealing with all these dead things. They were putting.

[Jason]

So here. Here's what. Here's. Let me sum it up in 60 seconds, I guess. You know, feels like I think we make some money doing these crawfish. So my dad brought all. He bought these pellets.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Jason]

That. Because it's easy. You put the little brown pellet. Looked like dog food.

[Jace]

Yeah. Kind of like catfish.

[Jason]

Every trout would have seven or eight crawfish. He's like, I know there's more crawfish

[Jace]

here, and you got to buy that stuff. So it's cutting into your profit.

[Jason]

So somebody told him, well, you got to have fresh bait. Phil. Well, he's got all his hoop nets because we were commercial fish in the river. So that's when this thing took a turn. So then we would go run the nets, take all the good fish, go sell them at the fish market, take all the coalfish and chop them up, put them in the crawfish traps. We got 500 traps. So we start running these nets, taking the good fish, selling them at the market, taking the bad fish. Not bad as in worthless. We were throwing those back, but now we're using those for bait. But just think about this. If every day you wake up and you're chopping up fish, using it for bait, then you're running 500 traps. Well, all of a sudden, we started catching 10 to 20 times what we were catching. So now we're selling them. But your hands, even though you had gloves on, crawfish will pinch you. Then you have the bait.

[Jace]

We have fins.

[Jason]

Fins are punching.

[Jace]

And the problem is now everything is in varying degrees of decay, like the bait. And then, as I recall, you got. Y' all were fishing so much, you couldn't catch enough. Fish. Debate. So then it was roadkill.

[Jason]

Well, people started bringing in stuff that they ran over dead.

[Zach]

Squirrels started getting carcasses.

[Jace]

There was a freezer full of dead animals.

[Jason]

It started getting weird, and I felt like I had gone into a medieval existence. Because, look, Al, we're doing this all day, every day. And, I mean, there were. It was good money, and we were eating a lot of crawfish. That was fantastic. The downside is, you know, red streaks started going up my arms. And look. I will say this. Every five traps had a snake in it.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Jason]

At first, that was part of. It was terrifying because you pull up the trap, and there's just a snake.

[Jace]

You know, after a while, they became bait.

[Jason]

They became bait.

[Jace]

And anything that lived outside of the crop, crawfish became bait.

[Jason]

For the crawfish, there was only two things that stopped production, which is because every 20, snakes would be a poisonous snake. Now that we shut the motor off,

[Jace]

because that had to be dealt with,

[Jason]

well, you can die immediately. And the other thing was when someone got knocked out of the boat, which happened. The most funny story of all is the boat. We're just doing our thing, and all of a sudden, I'm like, what is Phil doing? Because he's always. He was driving the. The motor. We're headed to the bank, wide open. I turn around and look, and I see Phil way off in the distance hanging on a tree, literally a tree limbs, trying to stay out of the water. And we're going wide open with nobody at the motor. Brace for impact, because I didn't have time to get to the motor. And we just wham. Crashed the boat, I think, at that point. Because then that day, Curly wound up going to the hospital again for blood poison and spent four or five days there to get over. And we just kind of had a meeting and said, you know, well, here's what.

[Jace]

So the year prior, Zach, when Jace graduated high school, some guys came out and tried to recruit us to go to seminary. And. And we said no. I was still in college, helping out a little bit with dad and the duck call business. And we said no, even though we were starving to death. And then dad gets into the crawfish caper. And then when they came back the second year, all of a sudden it was like, you know what? And they said, somebody will support you guys to go to school. And Jason, I looked at each other and thought, you know, it's just studying the Bible for two years. I mean, what could be wrong?

[Zach]

I'll tell you what, when I. My little stint in the crawfish business, I was. It was when I saw what they eat. Like you said, the road killed decaying carcasses.

[Jace]

I mean, exactly. If you died and fell in the water, they would have eaten you.

[Zach]

And that's. And that's the first time that I. That I felt I really questioned my eschatology.

[Jason]

You know, when.

[Zach]

Whenever. Whenever he says that, don't call anything, he says, don't call anything clean. Unclean. That I've called clean. You know, the rise, kill and eat. That. When all that stuff came down, I actually thought, I understand why God told the Jewish people not to eat crawfish because they are nasty. I mean, if you look at what they eat, I mean, it is a.

[Jace]

Well, you do realize that the bowel track of a crawfish is the only thing between that decaying material and your bowel track. It does make you wonder. But I have to say they are delicious.

[Jason]

I will close this story out with an important point. I believe that Louisiana is God's chosen people of the USA to figure out what you were supposed to eat. Because that's the people who came up with eating crawfish, oysters, all this kind of stuff.

[Jace]

That is true. They were willing to take a shot.

[Jason]

That's why it's called the sportsman's paradise.

[Jace]

You cracked open an oyster and said, man, that looks tasty. And they Are delicious.

[Jason]

Phil famously said that in Louisiana, the two questions that rule or what is it? Can we eat it? That's it. Will it make us so you're welcome, America. We broke down those walls, and that's why. Look. Look at crawfish. I mean, come on. Delicious.

[Jace]

They're. They're fantastic. I have to say, I agree. So, Jase, you got a couple of pooches, and one of them was your dog. The other one you inherited, so you didn't really. You weren't in the raising and the training part of that. That the second poochie. Does that. Did that make a difference?

[Jason]

That was. That's a nice way of saying my second dog has terrible manners. And yet I reward both of them equally with their favorite, which is rough chews, which I have in my hand.

[Jace]

Yeah, we love rough greens because, let's face that, our dogs show up for us, even the ones sometimes that have some manner issues. But here's one thing that happens. They all get older. They get a little slower, they get a little pickier about their food. Their stomachs get off. And then you got some problems, right? You got some cleanup issues, and you got some sick dogs. And it's mostly from traditional dog food. It's missing probiotics, is missing enzymes, omega oils, and the key. It's missing the live vitamins and minerals that your dog needs to digest and absorb food. Ruffed greens is America's number one dog supplement, and you sprinkle it right on their food. It's packed with all the live nutrients they need. Plus, it's all natural, and it's made in the usa. Ruff greens is helping dogs feel younger, more energetic, and healthier than they have in years. And your dog could be one of them. I know when my three dogs line up and they're ready, they look forward to rough greens being on their food. They enjoy it. Their. Their coats are shinier than ever. And so you can have this for your dog. You get a free jump start trial bag for your dog. You just cover the shipping. Go to roughgreens.com use the discount code. Unashamed rough greens. We make any dog food better. We have a special guest today, Melissa Dougherty. Is that pronounced the last name right?

[Melissa Doherty]

Melissa, I'm so impressed. Yes.

[Jace]

I've been working on that for a couple of days since I found out you were coming on, but super excited. We had a classic unashamed foible because you're in another time zone than us. So you popped right in the middle of her podcast. It's not your fault. It's our fault. We should have. No, it's not your fault. We should.

[Melissa Doherty]

Totally my fault. 100.

[Jace]

So you're from New Mexico, is that correct? That's where you live? Yeah, that's. You know, it's funny because I've been to New Mexico. I think I spoke there once. But it's one of the least states I've been to. Which is weird because, like, we speak all around the country, Melissa. And just for whatever reason, I don't get invited there much.

[Melissa Doherty]

Nobody comes here. Don't come here.

[Jace]

O.J.

[Jason]

has been there.

[Melissa Doherty]

It's like a mini California. It's real blue. You know, it's. It's kind of a. I mean, not to brag, but we're number three for crime. So, I mean, who wants to come here? But I mean, it has some other really good elements to it. Like my husband, he's a hot air balloon pilot. It's the Mecca for hot air balloons and it's beautiful out here. Yeah.

[Jace]

Hot air balloon pilot. How do you become that?

[Melissa Doherty]

Oh, it's actually out here it's kind of easy because every morning right now they're up in the air because it's the perfect place for balloons. Because of the wind. Because whenever you fly a plane, you just kind of go where you want. But out here the wind has to be a certain way. And they have what's called the box where if you fly up in the air, it goes right then up, then over and back down. And so naturally, it's kind of a growing community of hot air balloon pilots. And you can get on a crew to help crew the balloon, you know, pack it up, pull it out. It's a. It's a big thing. And he got involved that way and eventually he's like, yeah, I think I want to do this for a living. And went and got his pilot's license and did all the serious stuff. We have two balloons.

[Jace]

That is fascinating. I had no idea.

[Melissa Doherty]

We'll take that.

[Jason]

My redneck mine.

[Zach]

I thought.

[Jason]

I didn't know there was a pilot. I thought they were just jumping in and hanging on.

[Melissa Doherty]

No, sir.

[Jason]

And we'll figure out where it lands. I mean, I always liked it because I thought it was kind of a red.

[Jace]

James comes from the land of hold my Beer and watch this mentality. That's why he describes that.

[Jason]

So, yeah, the only time I was on a hot air balloon which was self made, and we jumped off the little cliffs down there where we used to jump in the river. Yeah, I was not piloting that contraption.

[Melissa Doherty]

I mean, you don't say.

[Jace]

I just went straight down in the

[Jason]

river and, you know, swam to shore.

[Jace]

So are you.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yeah. You kind of have to be a meteorologist for it. You know, you have to know where the wind's going and all the things. It's a whole thing.

[Jace]

That's fascinating.

[Jason]

Something I could get into. Well, I wanted to say this. I have done a couple of events in New Mexico, but I've duck hunted out there several times. And so I didn't know if you were aware of this, but there's a lot of ducks in New Mexico.

[Melissa Doherty]

No, I don't pay very much attention to the ducks outside the zoo.

[Jason]

Well, I didn't hunt in the zoo. I draw a line there.

[Melissa Doherty]

Where did you go to hunt, though? Where do we have them out here to bring you out here?

[Jason]

It's been a few years, but there was a fireman out there that wrote a letter and my dad said, yep, there's.

[Jace]

Wasn't it more the southern part, Closer to Mexico is what I was thinking.

[Jason]

Maybe Las Cruces around some native reservations. I remember that. So I'm not sure where that's at,

[Melissa Doherty]

but yeah, New Mexico is filled with all kinds of different. I mean, we're in the Albuquerque area, so we're kind of in the middle up there. So maybe you were more up north. It's more green. So we.

[Jason]

We went several times and had. Because the best thing when. When a state doesn't have a whole lot of water, they're not known for it kind of localizes the ducks. And there was no hunters.

[Jace]

Yeah, no hunt.

[Jason]

It was us and the firemen. We're just going out there, wherever. So it was kind of hot.

[Zach]

Air balloons.

[Melissa Doherty]

Did you see any while you were out here?

[Jace]

I wonder if you could hunt now

[Jason]

that I thinking about it.

[Jace]

Hunt out of a hot air balloon. Ask your husband about that. Melissa.

[Melissa Doherty]

That's great. I don't think you can shoot a gun outside of him.

[Jason]

I may have to do that when I get the resurrected body just to do it. I mean, Jesus ate fish post resurrection,

[Jace]

so I'm so Dad always said. And now. Now I guess he knows. He said when he gets on the other side, he said it's going to be a pristine swamp. Ducks everywhere, shotgun shells. You don't have to worry. Eternal supply and not a game warden in sight. That's what he used to say.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yeah. So, yeah, you can toss things out of the balloon. They do target practice. Like little army men with the parachutes. Right. You just toss them out. I don't think you can shoot a gun out of the hot air balloon, but I will ask just for your sake.

[Jason]

Well, I will accept that challenge if we ever want to do that one day.

[Melissa Doherty]

So you're welcome to come on out if you guys ever want to go up.

[Jace]

So Melissa says here in the bio about you, you are a Christian apologist, author, artist, wife and mother. And so we already got to experience a little of that. We picked up our hot debate from earlier and you jumped right in. So we're going to have that debate at some point and you're going to come back because that was 100%. That's too much fun. And Zach needs to edit.

[Zach]

I don't want to bring up what the debate was, but I'll just say this, that Melissa was certainly team Zach. It was nice. It was very.

[Jace]

Zach, do you fortified now that Melissa has come on and joined you? I can tell already she's very smart.

[Zach]

You know, the, the biblical arc of, of creation, fall, redemption, restoration. It felt like restoration. It felt like the Lord was doing something. I felt vindicated. It, it was, it was beautiful.

[Jason]

Okay, is this right? I, I looked this up. According to AI, the definition of an apologist is a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yeah, anybody could be an apologist technically. Like think of a lawyer. There's Muslim apologists for Islam, there's lds, Mormon apologists for Mormonism, and then there's Christian apologists. And that's what it is, is that there's a, an active defense. Knowing what you believe and why you believe it, using a lot of critical thinking, logic, reasoning, knowing your Bible and what it says and why it says it in order to defend it. Because there's a lot of garbage out there. And my background, actually I grew up in a new age, new thought kind of movement. Two different things. That's actually what my first book was about, Happy Lies. It was about the new thought movement and it's about a movement you've probably never heard of that shaped our self obsessed world. That's the subtitle. And so there's a lot of nopey nonsense out there, my friends. And I'm just here to make it less nopey and so people can know what that is, so they can know better what they believe and why they believe it.

[Jason]

So say in my simple mind, here's what I got out of that. Lawyers actually are going to heaven.

[Melissa Doherty]

There's going to be somebody depending on what they're defending. Yes sir.

[Jason]

That was A joke, but kind of not really.

[Melissa Doherty]

That was a good joke.

[Jace]

I came to that realization when I went to Alliance Defending Freedom and met some of those lawyers who donate their time for religious freedom and found out, yes, there's some fantastic lawyers. So tell us a little bit more about that, Melissa, because we'll get to your book, which is why we brought you on. But I was curious about that because I saw that you had come out of kind of that mysticism, or what would you call it, as you described it, that. That background, because Zach deals with that a lot up where he is in his area. Is that not correct, Zach? Don't you deal with that. Talk with folks.

[Zach]

Yeah, we live in Asheville, which is very new age. They call it a vortex city. And so. But we've seen so many people coming to Christ out of that in the last couple years that it is. It's pretty wild. But, yeah, that's. That's the. The world that we live in. And it's been interesting, though. I think that this. A lot of these new age mystics that we've met with, they do at least have a much more poignant or maybe visceral longing for a kingdom that's here. They just. They don't have the context for that. And. And then when they meet Christ, they're like, oh, this is the one we were looking for. And we. I mean, it's just been an incredible journey the last four years at our church. I mean, I'm telling you, we've baptized probably 40 or 50 of these people in. In the Christ, and so it's been pretty beautiful. So I. We came from Louisiana, though, Melissa, so I didn't have that background. Obviously that's not a big thing down where we came from, but so we moved here. It was kind of. We were a little bit ill equipped, but the Holy Spirit certainly has equipped us over the. Over the last few years. That's. I'm looking up your book right now. I didn't know that's. That was your background. That's interesting.

[Jace]

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[Jason]

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[Jace]

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[Melissa Doherty]

Yeah, it's. There's a Mecca of people coming out of New Age. What I thought I came out of was New Age though. So I always say I'm an ex New thoughter with a little bit of ex New ager sprinkled in. And that's where I, I never wanted to write a book because it's hard. Takes a lot of time, a lot of research. And there's a lot of responsibility when you put your name on something like that, especially if it's never been touched before. And so when I realized what it was, I'm like, oh no, I have to write a book. And so I did and I'm glad I did. But yeah, it's called Happy Lies. Yeah. The New Thought movement. I think it always helps to kind of define the two because everybody's heard of New Thought. Everybody if they've never heard of the word New Thought, you know exactly what it is though. And. But everybody knows usually what New age is and they can spot it better, especially Christians. So, like New Age, if you think about it, it's more Eastern. Think of more Hinduism, Buddhism, transcendental meditation, psychic mediums. Yeah, the crystal ball, chakras, reincarnation, karma, energies. Energies, yes. Reiki, all those things. Right. We know exactly what it is when we see it. New Thought. I didn't even know there was a word for it, but it looks and sounds Christian. It's more gnostic in origin. It claims to be true real Christianity. This is where it gets tricky because you have people calling themselves Christian, who are believing in these. These metaphysical beliefs. If I were to define new thought in two words, it would be metaphysical Christianity. All that means is that everything that you see physically has a spiritual counterpart, including words. And so when you're reading the Bible, if you're reading it, say you're something. You're reading something as simple and clear as John 1:1. Okay, we read that. And there's a fancy word in seminary and in apologetic spaces called hermeneutics. And all that means is understanding the context in which you're reading. We do this with any history book. By the way, who's writing it? Where did they write it? When did they write it? Who are they writing it to? The fun stuff. I get a kick out of that. I'm like, oh, this is what it really means. And then you draw the meaning from the text. Now take that and reverse it completely. You're the arbiter, you're the one that interprets it on how it feels to you and what it means to you. Because metaphysically speaking, truth is found from within, not outside of yourself, because God is in you. So it's a subjective interpretation. It's metaphysical. There's a higher, deeper, esoteric, hidden meaning within that text that's meant for you. And so that makes it really tricky because then people are like, oh, it's secret, it's hidden. And it gets. It got me, okay, it got me. So metaphysical Christianity, in a sentence, I would say it's the positive thinking movement in America with Jesus as its mascot. This is a movement within America, within the world really, of positive thinking. Your words can create your reality. Your thoughts can create all you. Sickness, poverty, things like that are all a state of mind. How you feel creates your reality. You speak affirmations. I am affirmative statements. Because what you speak, you create. And it creates a lot of distortion of truth. Which is why the book is titled the Way It Is Happy. It's Happy Lies. And the. The COVID is very specific as well. It's mirror. Because there's a saying in New Thought that when you look in the mirror, there's a God staring back at you. And that's the secret. That's the truth of what Jesus was really trying to say. So some terms that people might understand in New Thought. Christ consciousness. That's a big one. Speaking and believing, naming it and claiming it. There's a lot of word of faith, positive confession in that movement that's actually directly from New Thought. I always wondered why that was. I'm like, man, why are you guys doing the Law of Attraction. I used to do that. And you know, but that's. It's related. The. There's a lot of pseudoscience of, you know, neuroscience and quantum mechanics says that. Did you know that it can change the dynamic of your food, the chemistry of your food, depending on how you feel? A lot of that is really new thought. You. You create and affect the reality around you. And it sounds really good. And it duped me. It got me. And so, yeah, that's basically what the book is about.

[Jace]

That's fascinating. Or two things that. When the. Your description of it, what I was thinking. And you just said it, you got there. Where I was thinking, listen to you. Was it's the ultimate form of idolatry.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yes, you are God.

[Jace]

Yes, you are God. I mean, that's where you go with that. Right? Because you create.

[Jason]

We're going back to a conversation that happened in the garden.

[Jace]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah. Because that was the ultimate lie. Right. You will be like God. And so I, I totally. I totally see it. I. I had no idea. I did not know any of that. You just described that that was the foundation. I'd heard of the movement, but I didn't know really what they believed. I'd never researched it.

[Jason]

It's not too far away from. We're studying first John right now. And these people not acknowledging Jesus as coming in the flesh. These people trying to lead them astray, I think which he dubbed that a spirit of the Antichrist. And so I see a lot of things.

[Melissa Doherty]

He's writing to a church that had been affected by Gnosticism.

[Jace]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Jason]

That's kind of what we had concluded.

[Jace]

And you know, another thing you said, Melissa, that I was striking. You said we were making a lot of I am statements, which is such a big deal when you study John's writings about. There's only one I am. It's not you. Yeah. You know, you can. I am all you want, but you're not the I am.

[Zach]

You know, that's why that Jesus. Jesus come in the flesh is kind of like the big dividing line.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Zach]

We. That we've. We've dealt with a lot of this even what you're talking about, Melissa, even with these New age folks coming to Christ, it's kind of a process of getting out of that mentality. I mean, the. Even the term esoteric, I've heard that once. I've heard it a thousand times. I was like. And, you know, it's like the idea that there's this hidden, special knowledge that, that I'm getting this private kind of revelation. Not even revelation revelation because it's derived from within. You know, you just determine your own reality. The way it kind of manifests in. Pun intended, in pop culture language is, I'm going to manifest this.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yes.

[Zach]

And so manifest, you know, I'm manifesting. What does that mean? I'm, I'm, I'm making this thing come into being. I'm gonna. I'm gonna say the thing that I want to happen. So then it drips down even into kind of pop culture with people who aren't necessarily new thoughters or new age.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yes.

[Zach]

They just, they're just, just. They've just bought into it. They're like, I'm testing what I want to be true.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yep, you get it. This is how everybody knows exactly what it is. And even the self help movement was built on the shoulders of new thought authors like Napoleon Hill. People don't realize he's a new thought author and a scam artist. By the way, I made a whole video about him. You have. Gosh, who was the other guy? Dale Carnegie. I mean, you have so many people who were writing about basically that you now have attributes of God that once only belonged to God. That's the big secret. So, yeah, you got it. You nailed it.

[Zach]

But that's not the book we're talking about today, is it?

[Jace]

No, today. But that's a very interesting book now. So, yeah, I definitely want to talk about this. So here on set, got the book, the Day that Made the Way. And it's a brave book, which we've been. Brave has been a sponsor of the podcast for quite a while. Missy has a book with Brave, and so do Jeff and Jessica, of course, our old friend Kirk Cameron, a ton of people that are awesome. And I loved it. I jokingly say that Jace does better with children's book because he likes pictures.

[Melissa Doherty]

I do.

[Jason]

I like it.

[Jace]

We had Tebow on the podcast recently because he has a new illustrated book and Jace was enamored. But it really is good. And I'll say this as we begin the discussion about it, because I want you to give us why you wrote it and the importance of it, but it was very CS Lewis.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yes, thank you.

[Jace]

Yes, that's what I thought because we just did a Hillsdale study on CS Lewis and I love it when you can create other people. I could never do. I don't have enough creativity to do that. But you created this, this new group of people. And in a setting where children would Love the story and how you describe it, and they're called the Sunders. But tell a little bit about why you wrote it and kind of what your purpose was in writing.

[Zach]

Hey, guys, I want to tell you guys about something that's really cool we're doing with our Hillsdale Friday episodes. We're going to pick one listener to come down to Westman Road, Louisiana, to watch a live recording of Unashamed. And we're going to pay for it. We're going to pay for travel and lodging for you and a guest, up to $1,000 each. All you got to do is take the Ancient Christianity course with us. We're doing that every Friday. Finish all the quizzes and send us your certificate of completion. You can sign up and take the course for [e-mail] then you can upload your [e-mail] and you'll be entered for the drawing. We'll pick a winner in June. So you guys stay tuned.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yeah, it was twofold. I am not excited to write again. Right. A book. I'm good. I'm done. But a children's book was very different because first of all, they pitched to me that it would be an allegory around Easter, my favorite holiday of all time. I love Easter. And I'm like, oh, okay, let me think about it. But then it turned into a family project where all of a sudden. Because you know how Brave is. They're phenomenal. They're such a good. Yeah, I love Brave. They're great family company. Very family oriented. They. They just. They. They do it so well, and they just opened the doors wide open, like, bring your kids. Let's get ideas from them. And I'm like, okay, I'm sold. Let's do this. And so they got to design some, like, the senders. They helped design the senders, right? They. They sent in their drawings, and the illustrator did a phenomenal job. Somebody said it looked like a baby Groot.

[Jace]

That's what I thought. I thought Baby Groot.

[Melissa Doherty]

That's exactly what I thought over my head. I totally didn't see it until somebody mentioned it. I'm like, oh, no, I can't unsee it. That's awesome. That is so good. But, yeah, the girls, they designed their own little characters they didn't want to be in specifically. They. My oldest daughter, she's like, let's make them twins. And, you know, one of them's a boy, the other's a girl. It was fun. And then, of course, we had little Easter eggs, pun intended. You know, if my husband has hot air balloons are in the beginning, and then there's me and my husband, and we look that way. And it was just so fun because we all got to come together to do that part of it. And then it was the actual allegory part of it. The storyline was phenomenal. The meaning, the direct correlation to scripture. I mean, I mean, look at the COVID I mean, is that not narrow gate? You know what I mean? The light. Yes. And one thing I really wanted to transfer over was the light, because John 6. Everybody knows John 6 or John 3. My bad. John 3. 16. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever should believe in him will be. Will be saved. Right? But then if you keep reading the rest of it, it's so good, it's so beautiful because the idea is, is that, you know, Jesus said, I didn't come to condemn you, I came to save you. Why? Because you're already condemned. People miss this. People think that God sends people to hell. It's like, no, you're already on your way there. I'm here to save you from it. And then the verdict is that the light came into the world. Jesus came into the world. But people loved their darkness, right? They loved their darkness. They didn't want to be exposed. They're afraid of the light. They're not afraid of the dark. They love their darkness. They're afraid of the light. And so there's a. There's an allegorical truth all throughout the entire book about that. And at the end, it's my favorite, the little sunder, which means separated by the way. So the, the terminology was very specific that sunder means to be separated. And at the end, this little sunder, he's looking at the light and he's just kind of afraid of it. And he looks and he sees the bright one. That's the main character, the Jesus figure in the allegory. And he runs towards the light, right? And it transforms him. And so that's. That's the lesson at the end. I. I leave it with that scripture, and I say, don't be afraid of the light. You know, little kid, little child reading this story, run to the light. You know, you're going to have this division within you. You're going to have this fight, but go towards the light.

[Jace]

Yeah, you say the quote that you add in there at the very end, before there was a way into the light, someone had to step down into darkness. And it's really, really, really good. And one of the things I love. We talk a lot on this podcast about living in light now and the idea of when Jesus came, he brought eternity and the concept with him. And so when the kingdom is established, we live in the light now. And that's what the book teaches, which I thought was really, really good. In other words, instead of waiting until eternity before we go into this light, it's like, now.

[Jason]

It's so weird, because I remember my dad, who we witnessed do thousands of Bible studies on our couch when we were kids. We would watch this, and he was so blunt because he had such a terrible background. I guess he got away with it, but, I mean, he would confess his sins openly. But he used to ask people. It's interesting you brought that up. He'd ask them, are you scared of the dark? And when you say that to people, everybody always says yes, because they're thinking, oh, yeah, if all the lights are out, you know, and he would say, well, you're not acting like it,

[Jace]

because he's already.

[Jason]

He's already heard what they're into, you know, and they're. And then he would read that end of John 3, really? And say, you're scared of the light. Yeah. And so it's interesting when you brought that up. My dad used to use that same principle with just an individual on the couch talking about how they're living their life.

[Melissa Doherty]

So wholesome. I love that.

[Jason]

Yeah, it's profound, but it makes people think, you know what? Yeah. Because when nobody's around, I'm doing a

[Jace]

lot of cutting up. Well, and Melissa, that was one of the things I said was like, C.S. lewis, because a lot of his allegories, he pressed the same point that you're doing in it. And I love it that it's shaping in the minds of children, because they have to see, you know, they may not even get it in the moment, but they're going to get it at some point. But the idea that it's hard to separate from that which we're plagued with, because that's what we know. And a lot of Lewis's work was like that. Zach, you mentioned before on the Lizard. Remember on the. Was that from Great Divorce?

[Zach]

Yeah, the lizard on the shoulder. On the shoulder, flipping his tail, whispering the. The lies of lust in his ear. And the angel's like, hey, can I kill that? And he's like, oh, I don't know if you. That. That's gonna hurt. Yeah, it might kill me. And he's like, yeah, it might. But I Mean, you want to go on like this and. Yeah, and then when he took the. The lizard off and. And threw it on the ground and it turned into, like, the stallion or something that the. That the man could ride. And so the thing that was controlling him, that was having dominion over him, he ends up having dominion over once the. Once the liberation happened. And I think that it's such a key thing, and I love these, the way you can tell the stories, Melissa, because I think the default position of the way most of us grew up, if you're in church culture, even if you're not, you've grew up with a very humanistic framework of how you interpret reality. And so everything is about, I'm going to perform so that God will give me the reward and not send me to the punishment place. When this is much more about. This is more of an ontological reality. This is the way the world is.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Zach]

This is. This is. This is being. And one way is life, one way is death. And so my revelation is nada. I'm providing with you. I'm turning on the light so that you can see.

[Jason]

Yes.

[Zach]

Life really is.

[Melissa Doherty]

And you guys are in first John now, too, because he's talking about, you know, the lights there and the darkness. Doesn't know. Doesn't know it.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you think about, like, when we've told this, this analogy on the podcast before, but, but, you know, you wake up in the middle of the night. I've done this several times in my life. I'm in a hotel room. I don't know where I'm at. I wake up, there's no light whatsoever, and you just kind of freak out and. And you're like, what, What. Where am I at? What's going on? You have no context for anything. And the moment that you are, you find relief is when you stumble, you know, to the floor. And then you can see that little crack under the door. You see that crack of light. And then that's. That's. That's your context now. Now I got a place to move towards and move and get out of the darkness. But there's nothing worse than waking up in total darkness not knowing where you're at. We've all had that experience. And as soon as you can find that smallest sliver of light, then you can have hope. And I think that that's kind of the picture, you know, when you write the book. It's beautiful.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yeah. And I hope it steps. Steps like, or sticks with kids, because there's something about allegory like Pilgrim's Progress. I'm not sure if you guys have ever watched the animated version, but that's what we watch every. And that is the, I always want to say Paul Bunyan. John Bunyan, Yeah. The elementary kid in me and the Christian. You know, they kind of fight for that, that name. But, yeah, John Bunyan, he wrote the Pilgrim's Progress. And there's something about allegory, even Tolkien. I'm reading through the Lord of the Rings series again. It's just there's something about when darkness is in the world and there's pain and there's evil and there's suffering. Those stories, those stories speak to that fight, that, that, that fight against good and evil, because that's, that's what it is. I mean, I, it's an allegory book for kids, but I want them to remember it because they're going to go out there someday in this battle and they're going to have to fight a spiritual battle. And there's something about being knowing, knowing what that goodness is and that it's worth fighting what that light is and how to dispel the darkness. Because there's so many lies out there. There's like a thousand million trillion lies, but there's one truth, and there's so much darkness. Right. But that light is so bright. I really just hope that they remember that. I, I, I want them to have that kind of. Like you mentioned, CS Lewis. Why do we all know that? Right? Like, why do we all respond to that? And so that's my hope with it, is that what allegory in general has done for me and my children, I hope to kind of pass that baton over in this book.

[Zach]

Yeah, I think it will. I mean, we were talking about this in a previous podcast. You know, Lewis was a skeptic. We all know kind of the story. But, like, what. There's an interesting story of how Tolkien basically would walk with him. Who's the other guy?

[Jace]

There were three or four of them,

[Zach]

but they would walk with, with Lewis as he's working through his doubts and, and he's trying to intellectually satisfy all these objections. And I love apologetics, too, but that, that did not really do anything for him in terms of coming to Christ. And it was when Tolkien was basically like, you got to quit. Like, not that you leave your rationality, but like, you're trying to approach this, this strictly through the lens of rationality. And he said, you know, once you just rest in the story of Christianity, and it was the story that that led Lewis to Christ. And I, I think that that's how we all operate primarily is through, through the lens of story. And it's not anti rational. It's more than rationality though. And with kids especially. That's why I would highly encourage you guys to get this book. I'm always a big advocate of any of the stories that we can tell our kids when they're young to foster the imagination for the kingdom while they're very young to put the, to incubate them in these stories. Because I promise you the time is coming when there's another story that's going to be inundating them. And that's what scares me with my own kids is like the other story that they're hearing that is a story of deformation, not a story of transformation. And so I highly encourage you guys to get this.

[Jace]

So the book is the Day that Made the Way. And I have on here you can go to madetheway.com to get a copy of it. Is that right, Melissa?

[Melissa Doherty]

Yes, sir. Madetheway.com is where it is. And I think that you can also get a plushie. There's an option to get a plushie there too. A little sunder plush.

[Jace]

Oh, awesome. And they can find you on YouTube because I know our listeners, a bunch of them are going to want to come listen to what you have to say. So you're just a channel or whatever's on YouTube?

[Melissa Doherty]

Yeah, you can just look me up. Melissa doherty on, on YouTube. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, all the socials.

[Jace]

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. What a blessing to get to meet you. And when we're ready to have that big debate, we're going to bring you back.

[Melissa Doherty]

Let's go, let's go. Gloves on. It'll be fun.

[Jace]

It'll be fun.

[Melissa Doherty]

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

[Jace]

All in love. Thank you, Melissa. God bless.

[Jason]

Thank you, Melissa.

[Jace]

We'll see you next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast and don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.