Ep 1299 | The Same Dark Forces That Killed Jesus Still Drive Culture Today

Summary

Podcast Summary

Unashamed with the Robertson Family – Ep 1299

Title: The Same Dark Forces That Killed Jesus Still Drive Culture Today
Date: March 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Unashamed features the Robertson family (with Zach, John Luke, Christian, Dunlu, and special mention of Al) discussing lesson four from the Hillsdale College "Ancient Christianity" course. They explore the historical and spiritual context of Jesus’ life, the nature of His kingship, cultural expectations of the Messiah, and how the same dark forces from Christ's era continue to be seen in the world today. The episode weaves in reflections on family, faith, and scholarship, blending deep theological discussion with the Robertsons’ trademark warmth and humor.

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Contest Announcement & Opening Banter

[00:00–05:15]

• Contest Announcement:
  The Robertsons announce a contest for listeners who take and complete the Ancient Christianity course with them via Hillsdale College. Finish all the quizzes, upload the certificate, and be entered to win a trip (for two, expenses paid up to $1,000 each) to West Monroe to watch a live podcast taping.

  • “All you have to do is take the Ancient Christianity course with us...finish all the quizzes, and send us your certificate of completion.” – Zach [00:05]

• Casual Banter:
  The family chats about collecting course certificates, their current locations (including the infamous 30A beach), spring break crowds, and the high cost of beach vacations. They joke about Floridian origins and budgeting for expensive trips.

  • “If you have way too much money...book you a trip to 30A and that'll help clean out your bank account.” – Zach [04:51]

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Family Life Updates

[05:15–10:34]

• Twins Update:
  Dunlu shares an update about life with twins, saying it’s not “twice as hard”—more like “1.3 times harder.” Discussion ensues about the realities of parenting multiple children.

  • “We've been saying with these twins, it's definitely more than one, but it's not twice as hard.” – Dunlu [05:50]

• Hospitality & Friendship:
  The Robertsons share stories about hosting other large families, ongoing traditions like measuring kids’ growth on doorframes, and reflect on the joy and challenges of big family life.

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Transition to Main Topic: The Life of Jesus in Historical Context

[10:34–14:13]

• Course Reflection:
  The group shifts to discussing the "Ancient Christianity" course’s lecture on Jesus’ life, praising the depth and fresh insights offered—especially on the intersection of gospel narrative and first-century history.

  • “I've never really heard someone articulate the gospel and history so intertwined the way he did.” – John Luke [12:32]

• Discussion Focus:

  • The uniqueness of Jesus against Jewish and Greco-Roman expectations for the Messiah or a deity.
  • “He doesn't fit into a box that anybody—nobody has a category for Jesus and how he came.” – Zach [13:09]

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Deep Dive: Expectations, Messiahs, and Cultural Forces

[14:13–22:16]

• Messianic Confusion:
  Many false messiahs were prominent in the first century—increasing confusion about Jesus' true nature and role.

  • “How many like false messiahs were probably around in the first century...all that did was make it more confusing.” – Christian [14:31]

• Jesus’ Humility and Radical Nature:
  The group reflects on the humility of Christ—His incarnation, humble birth, and the juxtaposition to political or militaristic messianic hopes.

  • “He really did shape the world in a way that is not the way that any human power would do it.” – Zach [15:50]

• Life Begins at Conception:
  Christian comments on the significance of the Incarnation for Christian views about when life begins, referencing scriptural accounts of John the Baptist leaping in the womb.

  • “It’s very evident and clear scripturally for sure, as well as it should be scientifically, that life begins at conception and should be protected as such.” – Christian [19:39]

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Connecting Prophecy, Provision, and Divine Irony

[22:16–26:50]

• Joseph and Jesus – “Sons of David”:
  They muse on Joseph's royal descent and his limited presence in scripture, theorizing he died early.

• Magi’s Gifts & Divine Provision:
  The gifts from the Magi (gold, frankincense, myrrh) sustained the Holy Family during their flight to Egypt—a dual fulfillment of prophecy and God's provision.

  • “Who would plan on that?…Then these guys show up…with gifts that would then sustain them as they have to go on the run to protect Jesus’ life.” – Christian [24:38]

• Prophecy Fulfillment:
  Joseph’s decision to flee to Egypt fulfilled Hosea 11:1—“out of Egypt I called my son”—demonstrating God’s sovereignty in intertwining pragmatic decisions and prophecy.

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The Three Manifestations of the Incarnate God

[26:50–29:23]

• Christian highlights the significance of Jesus’:
  • Baptism: God’s presence on display—Father, Son, Holy Spirit united (Matthew 3:13–17).
  • Temptation: Jesus resists Satan, emerges victorious (Matthew 4).
  • Transfiguration: Disciples witness Jesus’ glory (Mark 9).
  • “Those were three great examples…about Jesus saying who he was and then getting to see that in the moments of his life, which is very powerful.” – Christian [29:06]

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Power Struggles: Political and Spiritual

[29:23–41:36]

• Roman Empire's Dominance:
  Discussion on how Jesus’ humble entrance contrasted with Rome’s unmatched power, and irony in how His execution under Roman system enabled the gospel to spread globally.

  • “The irony…is that it was actually Rome that brought the Christ to the rest of the world.” – Zach [30:15]

• Jewish Leadership’s Fears:
  The Pharisees, Sadducees, and Sanhedrin handed Jesus over to Rome, fearing loss of their nation and temple, unwittingly setting in motion the events leading to Jerusalem’s destruction in AD 70.

  • “If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” – Christian, quoting John 11 [32:42]

• Obsession with the Temple:
  Early Christians (Stephen and others) were persecuted for challenging temple centrality—emphasizing that God no longer dwells in a place, but in His people.

  • “You’re not going to house God in some place that you build.” – Zach [35:08]
  • “My kingdom is not of this world…My kingdom is not from the world.” – Zach, quoting Jesus in John 18 [36:15]

• Pontius Pilate’s Dilemma:
  Historical context of Pilate’s predicament—caught between Roman order and Jewish religious leaders, personally at risk and indecisive.

  • “It was really because…he had so much personally on the line for his position.” – Christian [38:25]

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The Cross: Justification and Transformation

[41:01–43:22]

• Cruciform Power:
  They reflect on how every power group (Pilate/Rome, Sadducees, Pharisees) was fighting for position—except Jesus, who surrendered.

  • “He’s the only one who doesn’t have to fight for power. Everybody else is trying to fight for it.” – Zach [43:07]
  • “Nobody takes my life. I willingly lay it down.” – Zach [43:19]

• Spiritual Battle:
  John Luke and Christian underscore the unseen battle of angelic and demonic forces—beyond politics, a spiritual war raged over the destiny of humanity.

  • “There’s another power struggle which is the angelic and demonic forces. The whole spiritual battle…we just get glimpses of.” – Dunlu [43:34]

• The Church Endures:
  All earthly power structures (Pilate, Herod, Sanhedrin) vanished, yet the church—the kingdom Jesus founded—remains.

  • “Guess what’s still here 2,000 years later? The church He built.” – Christian [46:20]

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Resurrection & Apologetics

[46:36–49:32]

• Christ’s Resurrection as Foundation:
  The enduring power of the church stems from the reality of the Resurrection—well-attested by hundreds of witnesses.

  • “If this thing was made up, then why would Paul say he appeared to 500 people…most of whom are still alive today?” – Zach [47:08]

• Jesus: The True High Priest:
  Christ’s ascension and atonement are described as the final fulfillment of all sacrifice and mediation between God and humanity.

  • “Now Christ, being the atoning sacrifice of his own body, he also became high priest…and he makes atonement for the sins of the people once and for all.” – Zach [48:25]
  • “That’s why we’re still talking about it 2,000 years later.” – Zach [49:23]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Jesus' Uniqueness:
  “He doesn’t fit into a box that anybody…nobody has a category for Jesus and how he came.” – Zach [13:09]
• On Life and Culture:
  “It’s very evident and clear scripturally for sure, as well as it should be scientifically, that life begins at conception and should be protected as such.” – Christian [19:39]
• On Cruciform Power:
  “He’s the only one who doesn’t have to fight for power. Everybody else is trying to fight for it because they have to…He’s the one that is laying it down.” – Zach [43:07–43:22]
• On Enduring Faith:
  “Guess what’s still here 2,000 years later? The church He built.” – Christian [46:20]
• On Evidence for Resurrection:
  “If this thing was made up, then why would Paul say he appeared to 500 people…most of whom are still alive today?” – Zach [47:08]
• On Fulfillment and Victory:
  “He has to transform us into something that looks like him. And so that's the beauty of submission and surrender that then leads to victory and overcoming the world.” – Christian [40:45]

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Closing & Call to Action

[49:32–End]

• Wrap-Up:
  Listeners are encouraged to take the Hillsdale College course, send in certificates, and potentially win the contest.
  • “We thank you guys, Unashamed Nation, for going on this journey with us…Maybe you’ll be the lucky winner to get to come and spend some time with us in West Monroe.” – Christian [49:32]
  • “Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College…” – Zach [49:58]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Contest Announcement & Banter: [00:00–05:15]
• Family Life Updates: [05:15–10:34]
• Course Reflections & Main Topic Introduction: [10:34–14:13]
• The Messianic Question & Incarnation: [14:13–22:16]
• Joseph, Provision & Prophecy: [22:16–26:50]
• Three Images of Christ’s Divinity: [26:50–29:23]
• Power Struggles – Political & Spiritual: [29:23–41:36]
• Meaning of the Cross: [41:01–43:22]
• Supernatural Layer & Church’s Endurance: [43:22–46:36]
• Resurrection Apologetics & Theological Wrap-Up: [46:36–49:32]
• Final Call to Action & Outro: [49:32–End]

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Tone:
The episode maintains a conversational, insightful, and faith-focused tone, combining scriptural depth with family warmth, relatable stories, and honest questioning for a wide range of listeners—those new to Christianity and lifelong believers alike.

Transcript

[Zach]

All right, Unashamed Nation, here's the deal. We are taking the course with Hillsdale every Friday. We're doing the Ancient Christianity course right now, and we have something that we're excited to tell you about. We're going to do a contest. We are going to pick one listener to come down to West Monroe, Louisiana, and watch us record Unashamed. We're going to pay for it as well. We're going to give you guys travel and lodging for you and a guest, up to $1,000 each. All you have to do is. Is take the Ancient Christianity course with us at Hillsdale, finish all the quizzes, and send us your certificate of completion. Once you finish the course, you upload your [e-mail]. you'll be entered in for the drawing. We're going to pick the winner by June. So you guys jump in there, finish it, take the course with us. It's been absolutely amazing. I hope you guys will join us. I am unashamed. What about you? We are back on the Unashamed podcast. This is Unashamed for Hillsdale on Fridays. We are going through the course called Ancient Christianity. It's been absolutely phenomenal. You guys can take the course free with us at unashamed for hillsdale.com. take the course for free, and we have a little prize. Guys, you guys know about the. The contest, right? Are y' all excited about it?

[John Luke]

I'm stoked for it, yeah.

[Zach]

So if you finish and you send us your certificate that you've actually finished this course, then we are going to have a drawing, and we're going to invite one person and a guest.

[John Luke]

1.

[Zach]

We're going to invite one person and a guest. We're going to pay $1,000 each for you guys to come here, and you can come hang out with us in West Monroe on set, meet the cast, and watch a show. So we want you guys not just to take the course with us, we want you to finish the course. You guys. Are y' all stacking up certificates like me?

[John Luke]

Oh, yeah. I haven't printed mine out like Al has.

[Christian]

I have all mine printed. Yeah.

[John Luke]

And I'm surprised they're not behind you in your studio right now.

[Christian]

You know that? That's a great idea, Christian. I should decorate my. My wall with my certificates.

[John Luke]

I like.

[Christian]

Yeah, I like looking at them. It's a sense of accomplishment at the end of every course. And we want folks to send them in, right, Zach? Is we. Is that what you said?

[Zach]

Yeah, send them in. Send them in. And then we're going to draw. We're having a drawing. I'll put them in a basket. We'll do the whole. We may podcast. We'll draw.

[John Luke]

I hope, I hope Frank wins. How epic would that be? If you're listening, if you're listening, Frank, please send in your. Your certificate.

[Zach]

But here's the deal, Frank. If you come and we share a meal together, you're probably not going to be so mean online anymore after we. After we break bread together. So I hope Frank wins, too. If Frank does. When I promise you it was not rigged.

[Christian]

I love it when we folks are sitting with us, a live audience. I mean, we all speak in public, you know, and do a lot of that. So I think it's always better with a few people in studio when that can happen. So it would be exciting to have somebody in right now. It would just be John, Luke.

[Dunlu]

It's just me.

[Christian]

None of us are in the studio. In the actual studio. Christian is in a undisclosed location. But I did see a picture of the window. You're looking out and it's very pretty there.

[John Luke]

It is. Very pretty. Yep.

[Zach]

Are you 30A? Is that where you're at, down your old stomping grounds?

[John Luke]

Yeah, we're in the old stuff now.

[Dunlu]

It's a disclosed location.

[Zach]

Have you ever heard my bet on 30A?

[John Luke]

Now it's A. Yeah, now it's no longer a disclosed.

[Zach]

Well, I mean, it's a big place.

[John Luke]

I mean, I think I've heard your bit. Yeah. You're not a fan.

[Zach]

I want to hear a fan.

[Christian]

By the time this airs, Christian will be long.

[John Luke]

That's true.

[Christian]

It is beautiful. It's beautiful down here this week, though, because I'm just up. Up the beach from Christian, you know, to the, to the west. But the water. Yesterday we had lunch on. At a restaurant on the beach and it is, I mean, gorgeous. And there's a lot of people from up north down here because of different spring breaks have already begun and so I saw a few lobsters walking around. I love when the people from up north come down. They just go out there, just no sunscreen, no anything to get in the sun. And then they look just red.

[John Luke]

You can always tell. Yeah, you can tell the inexperienced beachgoers.

[Zach]

It's actually a beautiful area. The problem, my problem with 30A is not, I think it's one of the most beautiful beaches in the state of Florida. I grew up in Florida, so I'm a. I'm a native Floridian, which is a very rare thing to be actually Born in the state of Florida. I was born there. Not a trans.

[Christian]

There's a lot of transplants.

[Zach]

Yeah, a lot of transplants. And it's just so crowded.

[Christian]

I mean, we went.

[Zach]

We went last year, but at least it's cheap.

[Christian]

At least it's cheap down there. It's not very expensive.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah, it's cheap.

[John Luke]

You just gotta pick the right time that goes next time.

[Zach]

My advice would be this. If you have. If you look at your bank account and you're like, I have way too much money. I gotta get rid of some of this. I just want to waste it, then I would say what you did is book you a trip to 30A and that'll help clean out your bank account. It's no joke, man. No joke. Well, last. The last lecture we did was. Lecture. Yeah.

[Dunlu]

I was actually at the beach yesterday too, with the kids. The lake beach.

[John Luke]

The lake beach.

[Christian]

Similar at Willie's house. Yeah, yeah.

[Dunlu]

And the kids are catching minnows. And then they got me to go over there and look at the. The pretty water. It was like the rainbow oil spill that was going on in there. So not quite 38 beach, but we're at the beach.

[Zach]

Pretty water.

[Christian]

Hey, Dunlu, since you're there, tell us about as it go with your twins and all that. We. I forgot to ask you on the last episode. People, I'm sure are wondering.

[Dunlu]

Yeah, twin updates. It's actually been going super good. It's really. I mean, we've been just thanking God on it because it is gone about as good as it can. We. We've been saying with these twins, it's definitely more than one, but it's not twice as hard. And I think that is partly just because they're really great babies. But also you're saying the twins. The twins.

[Zach]

You're saying having twins definitely more than one.

[Dunlu]

Having twins is definitely more than having one child, but it's not twice as hard.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's two. Right.

[Dunlu]

Yeah. I'm confused.

[Zach]

Are you saying.

[Christian]

I'm saying the amount is smart.

[John Luke]

He's saying it's like one and a half.

[Dunlu]

Yeah. I would say it's like 1.3 times harder than having one baby.

[Zach]

Yeah, but the way you said that

[Christian]

was you'd have to be a Dungeons and Dragons master.

[Zach]

Okay. Yeah. Because you were like, you know, having twins is definitely more than one. I'm like, yeah, it's two.

[Dunlu]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And then you say. I'm saying, like, it was. It just confused me the way you. The way you phrase that.

[Christian]

I. I totally got this.

[John Luke]

This is our. Your brain is way up here. And I'm like, that made complete sense. But you needed him to explain it more, kind of like, ethereally.

[Zach]

So you're saying that the work. You're talking about the work.

[Dunlu]

Talking about the work.

[Zach]

Having twins is more.

[Dunlu]

The work of having twins is not as hard as having. It's not like you've got one baby and that work is amount of work, and then you double that amount of work to have twins. It's not that. That I just confused myself on that one.

[John Luke]

See, I'm like, explain it to me like I'm five and Zach is like, explain it to me like I'm 80.

[Dunlu]

It's not as hard as I thought

[John Luke]

it was going to be just wisdom,

[Dunlu]

but the other day I counted.

[Zach]

So how many kids do you got? But how many kids you got total?

[Dunlu]

5 kids total.

[Christian]

Is that 5 times harder than having no kids?

[John Luke]

That's.

[Zach]

That's why, though, if you were to do that, if you went from one. Yeah. Once you have five kids, you don't like, it's like, I'll give you example. Like, first kid, you're like. You're so paranoid about everything. You don't want them, like, touching stuff that's got germs on it. And then by the time you get to the fifth kid, like, they're running around with a butcher knife and you're like, put that down. Quit running with the butcher knife. Sit down. If you're gonna play with the butcher knife, you just don't. You just kind of. You get a lot more laid back. So you guys are already there because you've already had three kids. So moving into this one, you're just not gonna. You're not gonna have the same level of energy and, like, conviction over the matter.

[Christian]

You know what I mean?

[Dunlu]

No. I even think American. I were saying, we even think going from three to five is still easier than going from zero to one.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Dunlu]

Like, that first one is, I just think, is always the toughest. I mean, some people say, like, one to two is harder, but once you. Once you get past three, it's just like, well, you already know what to do. You know how to change the diaper, you know how to do the swaddle. You've got all the stuff. So it's way easier.

[John Luke]

At some point over the next couple of months, John Luke's gonna provide us with the cold open involving a little.

[Christian]

So we. So we just had a couple stay at our house this week. We weren't home. Obviously. They're from North Carolina. They have seven. And, and the first time I met him, I was like, I mean, literally, you're just what, the stair step? You know, you just look at the ladder. And it's so interesting because they sent us a picture and they come through every year and, and every about third year we're home there when they come and stay with us and the great family that we met through the, through the podcast, actually. And. But they, they measure, you know, like, so in our house on one of the door frames my grandkids met, you know, do the measure every six months or a year. And of course, some of the, some of Zach's crew and Melissa's kids are on there as well. Well, I never noticed it, but the lady that's her family was staying there. They've been doing measurements on the other door frame. And I never even knew it. And so I told Lisa, I said, you know, we're running a, basically a hotel when other families are doing their family measure, kid measurements on your door frame. So they were showing us like the one who's in the middle of the seven now is taller than all the rest. You know, I guess all the height genetics went to him. So he's like, he's like 12, but he's taller than everybody else in his family. But it's on my door frame. So there you go. I mean, I'm tracking this family.

[Zach]

Well, the other thing we're tracking right now is the history of the early and ancient church that we're all a part of, the ancient Segways. Nice segue there. If you guys are not taking this course with us, going to Unchained for hillsdale.com Sign up for Take it with us. Last lecture was 42 minutes long on the lecture, which is longer than most of these. And I was kind of surprised that we actually got through all of that history in the last podcast. Al, you were like, man, that was a lot. It was a lot of information, a lot of history. And, and you, I think you took copious notes. You said you've taken more notes off of that third lecture than any of the.

[Christian]

Well, I took, I took because I, I'm the kind of person, I like writing things down as I'm listening because it helps, it kind of rest your brain. And then I go back. Usually if I'm going to turn that around and teach it or share it in some capacity, then I'll type it again. So it's just kind of how my brain works to, to access information. And so I Took three full pages. And I mean, I was literally just having, you know, writer cramp, taking notes from the last one. Now this, this lecture on the life of Jesus was so fresh because we've been studying and teaching and leading discussion on the gospels, Zach, for the last few, couple of years on the podcast. And so it was really. But you know, it's like anything else. You, you can study something or listen to someone else teach and you always pick up things that you hadn't picked up before. That's why Bible study is so interesting and getting perspective is so interesting and people asking questions or highlighting different things that you hadn't thought about. And so I love this one as well. This is the story of the gospel, you know, literally. And so this is like the life changing event. So I would say this is. Even though we're only like in the fourth lecture in the series, this really is the heart of the matter is the way I would describe this story.

[John Luke]

Yeah, what was so cool about this one for me was he explained the gospel, you know, told you what the gospel was, but he coincided it so well with the history of what was happening at that time period. I've never really heard someone articulate the gospel and history like so intertwined the way he did. So I thought it was really fascinating.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's kind of a bad. He's kind of backs up a little bit because, you know, the last lecture he was speaking about, you know, Nero, well, Nero reigned after, after the time of Christ. So we kind of back up a little bit. I think that lecture four was a kind of a broad paintbrush stroke of a lot of the years ending around the 80, 70 range. So now we're kind of backing up and just hyper focusing on just the life of Christ and really who, who was Jesus? I mean, we, you're right. I mean, we've been asking this question in the podcast recently in our study of first John, like, who even is Jesus? And what was interesting about this course, I think this particular lecture is, is this the emphasis on how Jesus did not fit into both the Greco Roman idea of what a God or Messiah would be, and also obviously Jesus didn't fit into the current cultural, I guess the imagination of the Jewish culture either. So he is this interesting figure in that he doesn't fit into a box that anybody, nobody has a category for Jesus and how he came. And I think that is one of the areas that, why he stands out as such a very controversial figure in human history.

[Christian]

Yeah, and I thought, Zach, I took the same thing from that. And you know what my first thought was? You know why that is the case is because he's bigger than the box. So he can't fit in a box because he's above the box. And so you know that, that's. We know that knowing if he really is who we believe he is, incarnate God, then of course he couldn't fit in a box because he's bigger than all the boxes. But like Christian, I felt really interesting understanding historical context around what was happening, even the political landscape and how Jesus is interacting because of what's going on. And so I thought that was one of the highlights to me that I learned that I didn't know. And the other thing I hadn't thought about before is about how many like false messiahs were probably around in the first century, because again, all these prophecies had led to this period of time. And we know that from Daniel and what we talked about in the last podcast. And so because of that, you had a lot of false choices to go along with the real choice. And. But all that did was make it more confusing. And even the, the concepts he talks about at the end of the lecture about Barabbas and the thieves on the cross, how they could have been actual false messiahs or rebels, you know, against the Roman Empire. And just think about it, because there was a lot of that going on the first century. So that would have made it even more confusing for people to try to understand who Jesus really was. Was he really the Son of God?

[Zach]

Yeah. Dr. Calvert points out that the, the, the Christ was the Messiah. The problem was that the Jewish people at the time, they didn't receive him as that because they didn't really know have it. They didn't have the expectation that the Messiah would come in this way. And we've talked about this quite a bit of what, you know, what was their expectation? Their expectation was, I think, more of a political leader. And so even the way that Jesus arrives on the scene is so humble. Everything's so humble. Right. He doesn't need to defend himself. He arrives in the form of a baby. The way he lived his life. I mean, and honestly, to me, that's. I want to live my life the way that he, that Jesus did. I mean, he really did shape the world in a way that is not the way that any human power would, would do it. And then on the Greek side of it, the fact that he was God incarnate, you know, God in a body, the Bible says that the God, the fullness of God, the fullness of deity, was pleased to dwell in bodily form. That idea was. The Greeks did not have a Greek philosophy, didn't have a category for that, because the way that John mentioned it on the last podcast, I mean, their view of the human body was, yeah, maybe it was perfected in that moment, but inherently, this thing's breaking down, this thing's dying, this thing's going to tear apart. And so they, they didn't have an idea of how deity could dwell in body. Ironically, they ended up worshiping the physical world in a way through, you know, through, through the, the gymnasium and things like that. So that was kind of an interesting irony I thought about. But. But there's no category for, for this, for this God, this Jesus who understood himself to be God. And so what you have in the Gospels is you have four different accounts in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, four different accounts of people's experience with Jesus. But the one thing that they all agreed on and that all the, all the four gospels point to is, is that Jesus actually is God incarnate. And that's, that's a massive undertaking to even comprehend what that means.

[Christian]

Well, you know what's interesting about not only the incarnate God, Zach, is that he makes the point about life beginning at conception from the idea of Jesus in the womb. And I thought about, you remember that. I can't remember maybe in Luke's account where. Or maybe Matthew, where John the Baptist leaps in Elizabeth's womb whenever Mary comes to visit. And so again, this idea of life inside the womb, and it wasn't really new. I mean, he, he mentioned that it was, you know, maybe in the first century, people thought about this more because of Mary and what in the situation. But, you know, David even mentions it in Psalm 139 and also in Psalm 51, when he kind of makes that hyperbolic statement about being inside his sinful. Inside his mother's womb, the idea that life begins at conception and not at birth. And because when you think about it, incarnate God, you think about, I mean, Mary housed the Son of God inside her body for nine months before he, you know, she gave birth to him. And, and that's for all of us. And so again, this is a very relevant issue because, let's face it, we hear and take part in debates every day about, you know, when do we want to protect life? And it's very evident and clear scripturally for sure, as well as it should be scientifically, that life begins at conception and should be protected as such. But obviously we know because of the evil one and influence that's not the case. And so we have all these different laws about, you know, when, when a child should be protected from abortion. And we all know, I mean, we know it inherently because it just seems right. But, but scripturally and the story of Jesus and John the Baptist as well, to me shows you that it's a, it's a godly concept as well, even though it's a relevant issue, you know, that we still discuss and debate today. And of course, Herod was practicing infanticide, which was to kill up to two years to get done what he wanted to do. And I think that's what you see with evil. The idea about, you know, that life doesn't matter as long if it's a threat to your power, whatever your power base is.

[Zach]

Well, that threat came too, because the Magi came in and they're bringing these gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. But these gifts were gifts that would commonly be used as from king to king. And so I love the way that N.T. wright puts it that the Gospels are the story of how God became king. That's such a beautiful way of thinking about this. That what Jesus, this is a story about Jesus becoming king. God becoming king. And so when he arrives on the scene in the man, you know, the, the, the, the Magi who are coming to actually bring gifts, the, the particular gifts they were bringing are actually testifying to the fact that, that, that, that the King of the Jews has arrived. And so you can imagine going back to what we talked about in the previous podcast, you know, Herod and his background of all the Herods. I mean, these guys were. What'd you call them? Was puppets.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And, and then John kind of not pushed back, but kind of caveat it. They were puppets, but with. Really because they, they were serving their own self interest. So you can imagine that probably was quite the threat. If you're Herod, you hear about this, this baby, you know, by the way, that he's the son of David. Right? Just like Joseph was called son of David, his dad. So you, so you know the prophecies. I guarantee you that Herod probably knew those prophecies very well because he was on the lookout for anyone who would rise up and take his position. And so there, Jesus, just as a baby, just his arrival alone is an incredible threat to the current power structure that held power over, over Jerusalem in this particular moment in history.

[John Luke]

Yeah, two quick points. One, I thought it was cool how he brought that out about Joseph and Jesus being the only two people in the New Testament named the sons of David. But it is interesting and I'm. Because I've. You don't really hear people talk about it much. But like, I do think it's confusing why Joseph is not mentioned much in the scriptures at all really. What have y'.

[Christian]

All.

[John Luke]

What are yalls thoughts on. On why he's not really mentioned much.

[Christian]

Well, most, most scholars think he probably died. Must have died early is one of the reasons why he's not in the narrative and certainly by Jesus's death, since he hands her over to the apostle John to look after would have been. He wasn't in the picture at that point. So. But that's what most people think and that's probably true. But. But you're right, I mean, I, I had not thought about it in quite that stark a term that, that he was mentioned because of the Matthew 1 genealogy as a son of David, which meant that he was royalty.

[John Luke]

Yeah, he could have been a king.

[Christian]

Yeah, yeah, he could have been a king.

[John Luke]

Right.

[Christian]

He had, he had royal blood, which was very interesting. And because we think about Jesus's link, you know, you go over to Luke 3 and you read the genealogy of what most people believe is Mary's side of the equation, which also goes back, you know, to a royal line. So Jesus was covered from both ways to be a king and. Which is very interesting, but we, we don't really think about Joseph in that term in that manner because really the only time he plays a role is in the early days of Jesus life. And you're right, Scripturally, that's. That's all we know about the man.

[John Luke]

Yeah, I thought it was interesting. Then the other point, I can't remember where I was hearing this, but it was talking about when the magi brought the gold, frankincense and the myrrh. And it was talking about how at the time Mary and Joseph would. Had no money right there. And when Jesus is born and they're, they're in the end, they're not financially stable, they don't have a ton of money. And when they flee to Egypt, they were talking about how Egypt is a way wealthier land than where they're coming from. And the person was talking about how the gold from the magi was what provided them sustenance and a place to live in Egypt, which I've never heard anyone else talk about that. So I thought that was interesting.

[Christian]

Yeah, we did this last Christmas Eve service. I had read something similar Christian. And we did a whole lesson on that on Christmas Eve about God as a provider and the different ways he provides, which are, you know, so unique. And they're things you wouldn't count on, you wouldn't plan on. I mean, who would plan on that? Right. I mean, they were down because they were doing a census is the reason they were in Bethlehem to begin with. When they have Jesus there. And then all of a sudden these guys show up within the first two years. Remember, by. By now they're in a house. But. And then show up with these g. That would then sustain them as they have to go on the run to protect Jesus life. And it's just, it's a beautiful picture of the provision of God in ways that we couldn't plan, you know, where we just get that blessing and gift, which is amazing.

[Zach]

Yeah. Because they escape into Egypt as a way of escape. Because this particular area, as Dr. Calvert points out, was not under the occupation or the jurisdiction of Herod. So this was a place they could go to to get away from. From the threat that Herod would pose to them. And it's interesting how God does that because it, you know, you, you can look at it on one level and it seems to be like a pragmatic decision. Of course they would go to Egypt. Great move. Great, great point. But it also has a double purpose. To serve in fulfilling the prophecy of Hosea 11. One that says he's. That God says, I'm going to call my son out of Egypt. So you see a prophecy fulfilled through Joseph's actions to take his family for protection purposes. But, but it has a dual purpose, one obviously sustaining the life of Christ, of the Christ, but also to fulfill the prophecy. And you actually see that in a lot of prophetic fulfillment. You see, oh, it's like anchored in. Again in his. In history. It really encourages me because again, it gives a lot more texture to the Christian faith, is not something we're just leaping into, but something that is actually rooted in reality itself.

[Christian]

We want you to take the courses with us. Unashamedforhillsdale.com is where you go to do that. Yeah. And Zach, I think it's also historical irony as well on fulfilling that prophecy that God would call his people out of Egypt in the beginning out of that slavery. And now here Jesus goes back into Egypt and comes out and he now brings all men out of slavery in the sense of slave to sin. And so it's just, you know, God always knows how to type the. What we would call the loose ends of things. But from his perspective, it's always part of his plan. I wanted to shift in this idea, but he, he mentioned three pictures of the incarnate God and which were very powerful, I thought, and I agreed with him. He mentions his baptism, which you can read about in Matthew 3, 13, 17, when you see the Trinity in, in its glory, you know, in that moment, because you have the Son and then you have the Father's voice, and then you have this image of the Holy Spirit as a dove. And so in that you, you, you get that physical picture. So much so that John the Baptist, who was there with him obviously and baptized him, says in John 1:29, when he sees him after the baptism, look, the Lamb of God who comes to save the world. So he recognized it and knew it in that moment because of the baptism. And then he mentions the temptation, which is in the next chapter of Matthew, Matthew 4, where you see literally God and Satan in this sort of duel because Satan is trying to, you know, attack the human Jesus, you know, the Son of Man in these different ways. But the Son of God emerges as victorious because he doesn't give in, which I thought was great. And then he mentions the transfiguration, which is the third one. And you can read about that in Mark 9. And that was the idea that the apostles, well, you know, Peter, James and John got this little glimpse of like a glorified Jesus and they also got a little glimpse of Moses and Elijah in the same moment about what it was going to look like in this glorified form. So I just thought those were three great examples. We sort of hang our hat on all three of those. The idea about Jesus saying who he was and then getting to see that in the moments of his life, which is very powerful.

[Zach]

Yeah. When Jesus enters in, in the scene, you know, he's coming in to a world that is ruled by the Roman Empire, which at that time, I mean, would be like. I mean, it would be more powerful than America is today, I would imagine. And, and like, all things considered, like, if you look at its influence globally, I mean, it was the global dominant power. It was so far above any other power in, in, in. In the world that it was. I mean, we're talking about the, the, the world Jesus is coming into as a very humble entrance. Through a very humble entrance. It. He's coming in. I mean, this is big. This is big league politics here. And the fact that he had that big of a, a threat which is ultimately, you know, what got him killed. But what's Funny about it is, is that the. He's killed under Roman occupation and rule. Pontius Pilate was the one who gave the orders to kill him. It was the Roman soldiers that whipped Jesus's back. It was, you know, he was hung on a Roman cross. I mean, this is a Roman execution. The irony of it is that it was actually Rome and that actually brought the Christ to the rest of the world. And Dr. Calvert points this out in the. In the lecture. I thought that was again, so fascinating how God's providence in things, he so often operates in a way that what you think is actually failure ends up being the very mechanism of success in God's economy. You see it over and over again. I mean, even like we did in the last lecture with what seemed to be like, okay, it looks like Nero won. Well, no, he didn't win. And then the same thing happening here. Every time you think that death ensues and death is going to have its victory, you're like, nope, Christ is ultimately going to be victorious. And you see that happen here through Christ, his death, his death, burial and resurrection.

[John Luke]

Yeah, I thought one of his points he made. I've never thought about this when he was talking about the Pharisees and the Sadducees and how, you know, obviously Jesus was a threat to them theologically and politically, but the idea of them being exiled from the promised land. I've always just thought about, you know, just the division between Rome and the Jews. But I've never thought about there being that fear of them being exiled from the promised land. Have you all thought about that? I never heard that before.

[Dunlu]

That interested me too, because that was one of the big ironies of the whole story, is that the Sanhedrin giving Jesus to Rome to be killed and crucifying him ended up causing one of the causes that eventually led to the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 and the Jews being kicked out of Israel. Again, like, had that have not happened and Christianity have not spread the way it did 40 years ago at the crucifixion of Jesus, things may have turned out differently for the Jews down the road.

[Christian]

Well, yeah, And I wanted to read this text from John 11, which backs that point up. Exactly what you said, Christian, whenever, you know, there this is, Jesus has just raised Lazarus from the dead. And so now, I mean, now, like the following is really starting to. To make a huge impact. And we're sort of, you know, now nearing towards his death. And so there's this plot that comes up and the Pharisees get together and they say, what are we accomplishing here? Is this man performing many miraculous signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him. And then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation. And so that's. That's that threat to the land and the people. And then one of them named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up. You know, nothing at all. You do not realize that it is better for you then one, that one man die for the people, then the whole nation perish. And that wound up being a prophetic word, because he would die for the nation, but he would also die for the whole world. And so I think in that. In that threat. And then the idea of why they were plotting to kill Jesus is the idea about what you were mentioning, Christian, that there was this great fear because. And which is why I think Dr. Calvert had gone back and talked about the two different exiles, because that was the fear we're going to lose our place, you know, and this has been given us by God. What they didn't realize was the only reason it was given to them was to be the birthplace for Jesus the Messiah. That was the. The whole point was right in front of them, but they were missing it. And Caiaphas made this prophecy to kill Jesus, which they ultimately did. What he didn't realize is in the doing of that, he provided then the king and the way out for them. And it wouldn't be just one place on earth. And I think this is what a lot of people miss today. And Zach, we talk about a lot on the other podcast, on the regular unashamed podcast, is that people are still mystified about the place. And we're like, it's much bigger than the place now. It's the person. It's not the physical temple. So we're still trying to teach our way through that. And the idea, and it still gets missed. Why don't you take the course with us? Unashamedforhillsdale.com is where you do that.

[Zach]

Well, when you look at the stoning of Stephen, I'm trying to find this line here. This is. This. Stephen said this. He said it was Solomon who built a house for him. Speaking of the first temple. Yet the most high does not dwell in houses made by hands. As the prophet says, heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me? Says the Lord? Or what kind of place of a place of my rest did not my hand make all these things? In other Words like, you're not going to house God in some place that you build. And so when they kill Stephen, it says that the accusation that they brought against him was that he was speaking. I think it says he was speaking against this place. Let me find that real quick. So this is actually back up in Acts, chapter six, and says, this man never ceases to speak words against this holy place and the law. For we have heard him say that Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and will change the customs of Moses delivered to us. So that really is that fear. And it's why they, you see, that's why they arrest Stephen. That's why they seized him and ultimately killed him, because they said he's talking about the place and he's threatening the law of Moses. And so you actually see that later on in. In the Gospels, even. I'm sorry, you see that later on in the history of the church. It's a. It's an obsession with the place. But I just want to remind everybody, too. And this is it. This scripture is mentioned in the course of John, the Apostle John in John. Let's see here. John 18. When Jesus talks about his kingdom, what he says is, he says, my kingdom is not of this world. He didn't say, it's not in the world. He says, not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting that I might not be delivered over to the Jews, but my kingdom is not from the world. Then Pilate said to him, so you are a king? And Jesus answered and said, you're right, I am a king. But the way that Jesus's kingship rules, it rules in a kingdom that you can't actually identify with a place. Yeah, that's the big shift of what's happening through the life of Christ. Is that the new type of kingdom that he's establishing here?

[John Luke]

Yeah, well, you just brought up Pilate, and I thought it was cool. He did a cool history account at the time when Jesus was tried by Pilate, that he had been under some fire. I think he mentioned Samaritans, that there was a revolt that Pilate was kind of in charge of. And so I'd never known the historicity of the time frame when Pilate, you know, allowed Jesus to be crucified, of just some different historical things that were happening and that Pilate was kind of responsible for. And he kind of felt that pull of, you know, the Jewish and the Roman. But I'd never heard those. Those facts about Pilate. I thought. I thought that Was really interesting. Interesting.

[Christian]

Well, and you're right, it helps to know that because even the pilot was a part of the. You know, when the emperor.

[Zach]

The.

[Christian]

The emperor that was. Was killed before or. No, the emperor was threatened and then. But his. His pilots. Guy that put him in power was the guy that had threatened the emperor and then that was stamped out. So that tells you a lot about the man in terms of. Now he's in charge of this area, about why he was so indecisive about what to do about the situation because he had so much personally on the line for his position. And it was really because, you know, we see this wrestling match with pilot, right? And then even his wife, you know, it's like, send him messages. It's like, I've had dreams about this guy. Don't. Do not kill this guy, whatever you do. And yet he feels like he's just pressed into this position instead of being the true leader of the. Which he should have been, I mean, because he was the representative of Roman power, he instead was led by the other forces for Christ to be crucified. And I think it's back to what Zach, you were talking about earlier. This idea. It seems like it's an unwinnable situation, but it was all planned anyway. I mean, Jesus came to give his life, and so it's like, how do you win by surrender? What? Jesus shows us that what nobody knew, of course, is that he would be raised from the dead except for Jesus. And he said that. He said, you know, you'll. I'll give my life, but trust me, I'll be back. And so therefore, victory was by surrender. And so when we look at our own lives, we say, well, how do we have victory and surrender? But that's exactly what we do. We surrender our lives, and then we find victorious resurrection. And I love the fact that he made the point that the cross was more than just justification. It was also about transformation. And he used the illustration Dr. Calvert did of the woman, sinful woman, that was, you know, the Jesus, all the people were ready to stone her. And he said, well, okay, the first one of you, without sin, you go ahead and start. And then they all walk away. But instead of just leaving the woman in the state of laying there, feeling like she dodged a bullet, he says, go and sin no more. It's not about just being saved. It's about being transformed. And I love that he brought that out, because that's the power of the gospel, that Christ would love us and that he would take us as we are. But then he loves us so much, he wouldn't leave us that way. He has to transform us into something that looks like him. And so that's the beauty of submission and surrender that then leads to victory and overcoming the world.

[Zach]

And what he looks like specifically is exemplified in the cross. It's the cruciform life. So if you think about the three power structures at play here, actually there's four. You have Pontius Pilate representing the Roman Empire. The dynamic there is obvious. Right. Like, you just beautifully articulated that he's thinking, man, I got to maintain my governorship here. You know, I mean, like, he's. He's a political figure. Like, I'm in charge of this whole thing. So when he interviews Jesus, and Jesus is like, well, my kingdom's not of this world, he's like, oh, great, we're all good. Yeah, he's ready to let him go.

[Christian]

Yeah, but.

[Zach]

But it's. But he's. He's still fearful over his power, that he's going to lose it. And the reason why he makes a decision because of the other two power parties, which is the. The Pharisees and the Sadducees, which make up the Sanhedrin. And so they're like, no, no, that. We're not good with that. And so when Pilate gives into them, he is. It's not like he. He still is doing it as a political move to maintain his power. And with the Sadducees and the Pharisees, they both are at odds with one another. This is what's so funny about it. Everybody's at odds with one another. The Sadducees are political rivals of the Pharisees, but they can join together against the Roman Empire because they're both enemies of the Roman Empire, at least in their minds. Right. And then. And then. So they're all jockeying for position and control, and who's going to be the one to have the power? So this is like a game of Thrones. This is like the game Risk. This is like strategy and politics, and how are we going to pull this off? And then you have the fourth power structure, which is Jesus, who has all authority on heaven and earth, who is God incarnate, who spoke the world into existence, and his play is simply to yield his life and to put his life into the hands of these people. And he, like you said, he says, nobody takes my life.

[Christian]

That's right.

[Zach]

I willingly lay it down. And I think that in that, that right there, that's. That's the thing that we're saved to like he's redefining what power actually is. And he's the only one who doesn't have to fight for power. Everybody else is trying to fight for it because they have to fight for it.

[Christian]

And he's.

[Zach]

And they're trying to take it. And he's the one that's giving it away. He's the one that is laying it down. And ultimately that's going to cost him his life. And they're going to murder him. We're going to murder him on a Roman cross.

[Dunlu]

To add to that, I think there's another power struggle which is the angelic and demonic forces. The whole spiritual battle for the kingdom and for earth going on above and beyond all of this as well. Because I mean if you've got, I think Pilate's wife having dreams for example, is a good example that something in the spiritual world was also happening to either cause this or stop it from both sides. You've got the guys with demons, you've got people being raised from the dead, you've got other false prophets. Like you've got a ton of spiritual stuff going on here behind the scenes that we just get like glimpses of in these kind of little one off statements of a dream there, a miracle there, a demonic person there. But there's a later when Paul says our battle is not with flesh and blood, but demonic forces of the world. There's also this whole other layer of politics going on.

[Christian]

And to your point, John Luke, you remember Paul said, I think it was in 1 Corinthians that if the rulers had known what was going on, you know, they would have never done it because obviously, you know, they were being fed this false information by these demonic forces and by evil and, and ultimately it was to their own demise. I was thinking about it Zach, when you were mentioning the powers, you know, Pontius Pilate basically disappears, but nobody's sure what happened to him. I mean he just, he, when he left, he just, you know, it was, it was over for him. You never heard anything else about him. There's been a lot of rumors about, you know, what happened to him, but he was gone. You had Herod Antipode, which was the, you know, Pilate tried to pawn Jesus off to, maybe something would happen there. But you remember all he wanted was some miracles. So I mean he, he was so non powerful that all he wanted was some magic tricks. And then he sent him right back. And so he was a non factor. Well, he, we know from Acts 12 that he gets worms and Dies, you know, he gets eaten by worms inside out. And that ended him. And then you mentioned the Sanhedrin, which was the Pharisees and Sadducees, all built around the temple where they got wiped out in 80, 70 by the Romans. And so that was the end of their whole power structure. And so all of these power structures that thought they had the power over Jesus, they all disappear. But guess who kept going? Guess what's still here 2,000 years later? The church he built. Yeah, the kingdom is still going strong, and we're still talking about, we're still having podcasts about it, but not about those other entities. And so again, it's just as you, you pointed out in the last podcast, Zach, and even in this one, it is rooted in all of our human history. This is not just fairy tale, it's not myths. This is not something we hope happened. It's something that did happen. And that's why we're still here, and that's why we're still being transformed by it all these years later. It's real.

[Zach]

Well, the reason why, the reason why we're still talking about it today and the reason why it didn't die off is because it didn't die off. I mean, Christ was resurrected from the dead. The body came out of the grave, the tomb was rolled away, and Christ ascended. I mean, think about that. I mean, Christ was post resurrection, was on the earth for 40 days. That's not like some guy goes in the cave and gets a vision from God and then tells the rest of us about it. He appeared to more than 500 people. The apostle Paul says that in 1 Corinthians 15. And you think about man, what an apologetic for God's existence and the resurrection of Christ. I mean, if this thing was made up, then why would Paul say he appeared to 500 people, most of whom are still alive today? Paul says, I mean, you wouldn't say that because once you put that out there, then all I'm gonna, if I'm, if I know Paul, guess what? I'm gonna ask Paul. Well, who are those people? Right? You're giving yourself too many ways to sink the ship of this, of this conspiracy that you built. The fact that he appeared to 500 people, Paul said, most of whom were alive when he wrote that letter to the Corinthian Church. I think it was written within 14 to 16 months after the resurrection, or at least he received that, that gospel within 14 to 16 months of the resurrection of Christ is just incredible. So he walks on the earth for 40 days. And then Christ ascends. And I think that ascension part is key to the whole thing. And he mentions it, Dr. Calvert does. He says that the Platonists and the Greek philosophers couldn't understand how flesh and blood could enter into the heavenly realm. But they didn't have a category for that, because why the flesh is bad, not the flesh of Christ. The crush of Christ never sinned. He didn't sin. One time he took on sin, but he never sinned. And so he lived a perfect life. And so now Christ being the atoning sacrifice of his own body, he also became high priest, according to the Hebrew writer. And then Christ as high priest, who is made perfect through his suffering, he takes the atoning sacrifice into the true tabernacle, the true temple, which is in the heavenly realm. Christ enters in to the true holy of holies, the final Yom Kippur. And he makes atonement for the sins of the people once and for all. And that's why when he was on that cross, he said, it's finished. And I just love that idea of our God becoming flesh, fulfilling the sacrifice, and then taking that into that throne room and paying for it and presenting it once and for all. And that's why I think that we're still talking about it some here 2,000 years later.

[Christian]

Well, that's a perfect way to end. We're out of time. We thank you guys, Unashamed Nation for going on this journey with us. And so we want you to be sure and go to unashamed for hillsdale.com if you haven't yet and take the courses with us, get the certificate, send us that certificate and. And maybe you'll be the lucky winner to get to come and spend some time with us in West Monroe. So we'll see you next time on Unashamed for Hillsdale.

[Zach]

Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little, little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.