Ep 1301 | Chuck Norris & Phil Robertson Proved True Strength Goes Beyond the Legend

Summary

Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode: 1301 | Chuck Norris & Phil Robertson Proved True Strength Goes Beyond the Legend
Date: March 31, 2026
Guests: Phil, Jase, Zach, Al Robertson
Main Theme: Remembering the real strength and legacy of Chuck Norris, exploring true toughness, family stories, and a deep discussion on Christian atonement and God’s love

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Episode Overview

This episode opens with the Robertson family responding to the news of Chuck Norris's passing, reflecting on his cultural impact and mythos around his strength and toughness. The Robertsons transition into personal stories highlighting the real meaning of strength — not just physical resilience but spiritual preparedness and love.

The main discussion evolves into a deep theological dive about the biblical doctrine of atonement, the wrath and love of God, and the sacrifice of Jesus. The brothers share biblical insights and address controversial doctrine in a lively, honest, and sometimes humorous debate, maintaining their down-to-earth, storytelling style throughout.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Remembering Chuck Norris: Between Legend and Life

[01:06 – 05:41]

• The family reflects on Chuck Norris’s passing, recalling his status as a childhood hero and laughing about the popular "Chuck Norris facts."
  • Phil: “The boogeyman checks his closet every night for Chuck Norris.” (02:05)
  • Jase: Admits growing appreciation for Norris, especially when learning Norris’s sons were fans of Duck Dynasty.
• Phil shares a personal story about meeting Chuck Norris at his 75th birthday and notes how fit Norris was for his age.
  • Phil: “He was 75 and looked 45.” (03:18)
• The conversation turns to strength and mortality, with Jase quoting Phil’s longtime joke:
  • Jase: “You will die healthy, but it may be a bus, it may be a staircase, but it’ll be something.” (04:08)

Selling Supernatural Promises & Chuck Norris’s Water

[05:01 – 06:00]

• Jase jokes about marketing products with eternal or supernatural promises, noting even Chuck Norris had his own “C Force” water marketed like a roundhouse kick to the face.

Honest Musings on Death and Spiritual Readiness

[06:41 – 07:07]

• A reflection on cinematic portrayals of death and real fear, with Jase appreciating the honesty in “The Outlaw Josey Wales.”
  • Jase: “I ain’t gonna lie to you. I’m scared to die, Josie... That was just brutal honesty that I find lacking in movies today.” (06:52)
• Phil notes that fear is real, especially for the spiritually unprepared.

Family Strength Stories: Phil’s Legendary Pain Tolerance

[08:35 – 15:16]

• Zach and Jase detail Phil’s incredible pain tolerance:
  • No anesthetic for a root canal, rod out of his eyeball, kidney stones procedure, and more.
  • Jase: “Just keep in mind that my dad did not use any kind of deadening…from a root canal. No deadening. Wide awake. Nothing is numbed.” (12:49)
  • Phil had a cyst cut out of his back and a huge thorn pulled from his eye — no pain relief.
• Family stories reiterate Phil’s toughness, comparing his legendary status to Chuck Norris with playful sincerity.
  • Jase: “He invented this kind of mindset…one tough, gritty human being.” (09:34)

Encounters with Nature: Snake Stories & the Duck Blind

[15:29 – 19:15]

• The family shares classic stories of duck hunting, dealing with dangerous critters in the duck blind, debugging rituals, and close encounters with snakes—including a cottonmouth that sat just a foot from Phil’s ear.
  • Jace: “There’s a bull Congo right by your right ear.” (17:57)
• Zach recounts a story of his mom getting bitten by a poisonous snake, showing a generational toughness and the downplaying of pain.

Spiritual Parallel: The Serpent, Evil, and Atonement

[23:54 – 27:29]

• Jase smoothly ties in the theme of snakes to spiritual evil, referencing the serpent in the Garden of Eden (Genesis) and moving toward a theological discussion on atonement.
  • Jase: “Fascinating that the evil one took the form of a serpent in the garden.” (24:16)
• The team examines the Hebrew and Greek words for "atonement," noting the mix of meanings (propitiation, reconciliation, atonement cover/mercy seat).

Deep Dive: The Debate on Atonement — Wrath, Love, and Sacrifice

[27:30 – 57:42]

• Jase and Zach thoroughly explain the scriptural terms for atonement, referencing 1 John, Romans, Hebrews, and Leviticus.
  • Jase: “My point for doing all this is when you read atonement in the Bible...these are different words.” (37:16)
• Discussion covers the controversial doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement:
  • Is atonement about appeasing God’s wrath, or is it primarily about love and reconciliation?
• Various theological camps are discussed:
  • One camp: Stresses God’s wrath poured out on Jesus.
  • Another: Minimizes wrath, emphasizes only love.
• Jase, Zach, and Phil agree payment for sin is necessary, but Jase emphasizes love as the motivation:
  • Jase: “I just have the motivating factor as love...God’s judgment being appeased through the offering of his Son in love.” (53:10)
• Zach analyzes whether, on the cross, God truly turned away from Christ, referencing Psalm 22:
  • Zach: “The psalmist clearly says that as the Christ cries out…‘He has not hidden his face from him, but has heard him when he cried to him.’” (52:34)
• The brothers warn against reducing debates about the cross to simple soundbites, acknowledging complexity and context.

Final Thoughts: What Matters Most

[57:45 – End]

• Jase stresses that subtle differences in doctrine shouldn’t distract from the essentials: Jesus’s sacrifice, God’s love, and our call to live and proclaim reconciliation.
  • Jase: “He took the punishment for our sin, the punishment and consequences of sin that we did. He took that by dying…for some reason…they didn’t conclude that he didn’t die for everybody. And in both cases…he makes a point to say, and he didn’t just die for you, he died for everybody.” (57:42)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You will die healthy, but it may be a bus, it may be a staircase, but it’ll be something.” — Phil, repeated by Jase (04:08)
• “Even the seemingly invincible Chuck Norris.” — Phil (04:25)
• “People sell the idea of eternity and supernatural things through their products...but it’s not going to keep you from dying.” — Jase (05:29)
• “He invented this kind of mindset as far as very much, very similar. Get out of the way and watch this.” — Jase, about Phil and Chuck Norris (09:34)
• “The boogeyman checks his closet every night for Chuck Norris.” — Phil (02:05)
• “If you sin, what will happen? You’ll die.” — Phil (55:42)

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Important Theological Segments & Timestamps

• Chuck Norris Reflections & Stories: [01:06 – 06:00]
• Pain Tolerance & Phil Robertson’s Toughness: [12:13 – 15:16]
• Snake Stories in the Duck Blind: [15:29 – 19:15]
• Biblical Discussion: Snakes, Evil, Genesis Context: [23:54 – 24:51]
• Atonement Word Study and Old/New Testament Usage: [27:30 – 37:17]
• Debate over Penal Substitutionary Atonement: [40:00 – 57:42]
• Psalm 22 and the Cross: God's Wrath or Love?: [49:56 – 53:10]
• Concluding Thoughts on Love, Judgment & Reconciliation: [57:45 – End]

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Tone & Style

• Warm, humorous, and brotherly with honest theological debate
• Mix of storytelling, scripture study, and real-life family experiences
• Willingness to disagree with grace and humility, emphasizing the complexity and importance of studying God’s Word together

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Useful for Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode provides a heartfelt tribute to Chuck Norris, a rich treasury of family stories about resilience and faith, and an in-depth, accessible exploration of Christian doctrine around atonement and the cross. It’s deeply grounded in scripture, candid in wrestling with controversial points, and filled with memorable moments that reinforce the themes of love, sacrifice, and true strength.

Transcript

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[Jace]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Phil]

So welcome back to Unashamed. We. I woke up just to the sad news that one of our icons, our

[Jace]

childhood heroes, one of your icons.

[Phil]

You know, he never was yours.

[Jace]

I wasn't much on his maybes, but now, you know, I. I found, well,

[Phil]

the movies were a little cheesy, but he was just. He. He was just a bad man. Of course, we're talking about Chuck Norris passed away in Hawaii, which I guess made sense. He was in paradise on earth.

[Jace]

Yeah. Don't take that the wrong way. It wasn't that I disapproved. I just wasn't a.

[Phil]

You weren't as into him as I was.

[Jace]

No. And then later, I never figured out the fascination with, you know, all the little sayings.

[Phil]

So many. I looked. I was looking them up and reading them this morning that they were hilarious. All these, you know, Chuck Norris, they're the best. Yeah, they're the best. I just did one because I was near his, where he's from, in Texas, where he has a ranch. And so I did a. The boogeyman checks his closet every night for Chuck Norris. So it's one of my favorite.

[Jace]

But what was the one you read? You. You were reading them when I was

[Phil]

over what I said. God created the earth and on the seventh day, rested. And then Chuck Norris took over. But it does show you, Jason. I were talking about this morning that he's kind of. The joke is his invincibility because. And I. I've told the story before on the podcast. I got to meet him 11 years ago and the only reason I know exactly when it was is it was his 75th birthday and we happened to be at the same event and a mutual friend invited me to his little surprise parties and it was great because there was just a handful of people there. So I really got to visit with him. And Jace, I don't know if I told you this, but he, he at the time he had twin 15 year old sons. So I guess now they'd be 26. And so they were young because he, he had married a little bit later. His wife, he had now and. But he said they loved the show and. And you in particular were their favorite, so.

[Jace]

So I'm warming up.

[Phil]

Yeah. So the Chuck Norris twins, whoever they are, said they love them some jays. But he was fantastic. But you know, he was 75 and he looked like he was 45. Yeah.

[Jace]

I mean, that just shows you being in shape. I mean, I have said this line many times on this podcast because Phil always used to say it. People always laugh. I say it in every speech. And my dad would use this illustration. It's worth repeating that when people do not want to think seriously about their impending death, they will rationalize in their mind by doing something good, which is eating right and working out, which are great things.

[Phil]

Nothing wrong with that.

[Jace]

But don't let that be a delusion in that you're not going to die. And my dad would say, oh, you tell me I eat right and I work out. And he would say, you will die healthy, but it may be a buz. It may be a staircase, but it will be something. Something's happening.

[Phil]

Even. Even the seemingly invincible Chuck Norris. But he was one of those that your childhood. Two of them. I got to meet him. He was one. And then we got to meet hacksaw Jim Duggan because he was on the show.

[Jace]

Oh yeah. That was fun. Well, our lovely cousin, I don't even have to say her name, but she has a nickname that we affectionately call her Lulu. So you can't look her up. Yeah, but the original Lulu, because my wife became a Lulu. Oh, she's a lilut as a grandma name. But she sent me a funny text yesterday. She's like, you're not gonna believe this. I just bought a bottle of eternal water. She didn't have to clarify. I knew what that meant. I was like, people are still up to this idea of selling the idea of eternity and supernatural things through their products. When. Look, it may be the greatest water ever. I've never tried it, but it's not going to keep you from dying.

[Phil]

No.

[Jace]

Nope.

[Phil]

And you know what else? It's not going to be better than Chuck Norris's water C Force. Speaking of Chuck Norris, it says on the bottle, it's like a roundhouse kick to the face.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Phil]

So rest in peace, Joe.

[Jace]

The outlaw Josie Wells movie, it's filled with so many lines of. Even at the end, when it gets to the end. My apologies for bringing this movie up again.

[Phil]

Don't apologize.

[Jace]

Whoever wrote that movie ended the movie with the words of death and the words of life, which are a direct quote from the book of Genesis.

[Phil]

That's right.

[Jace]

Blessings and curses. Words of life. Words of death. It shall be life. But the. The young buck who followed Josie around, and he took him in. You remember when he got shot, and he looked up and he was. It was incredible acting. Yeah. He's like, I ain't gonna lie to you. I'm scared to die, Josie. But that. That was just brutal honesty that I find lacking in movies today. That deep down, you know you're not scared to die till you get shot. All of a sudden, you're looking around saying, I'm scared, Josie. So.

[Phil]

So a lot of people. Yeah. And especially just think if you're not. You're not spiritually prepared. That would be really scary because you really put. You're really putting it all on the line if you're not ready. I mean, yeah, we're ready, but, you know, none of us really look forward to it. But, you know, I'm ready.

[Zach]

Started when we started doing all this stuff with Phil, you know, with the podcast, and we had in the woods with Phil before that, which. Behind the paywall. So a lot of. A lot of you did get to see it. Which, by the way, if you do want to hear some of those or watch some of those old episodes, we're bringing them back out in the form of a podcast called At Home with Phil. You can look it up on YouTube or on the. Wherever you listen to podcasts, but.

[Jace]

Great idea, Zach. Great idea. First time hearing about. Great idea.

[Phil]

There's also a new book coming out at some point. It's a lot of. It's a compilation of his stuff in the new devotional, but it's. It's a new book. I know your dad's been working on it. I don't know any details about It. But just be looking for it when they come.

[Zach]

Once we. Yeah, once that. I don't either, but once that comes out, we'll. We'll get everybody together on that, too. But what we've. We had this one scene when I had this idea, like, when we launched that.

[Jace]

That was.

[Zach]

I said, phil, let's go out. Wait till it turns dark, and you just build a fire, and then I'm gonna. We'll film you building this bonfire. And the whole thing was about, like. Like starting a fire for the kingdom. And like, we're. We're. I mean, this thing is catching, you know, catching flame here. And I had a whole thing I wrote out for him.

[Phil]

It was.

[Zach]

He was. He was fired up about it. So he goes out there, and Jill was with me. I think there was probably 68, 69. And so he's got this fire going right out there on Yalls land. Jase.

[Jace]

And.

[Zach]

And it's just a bonfire. I mean, and so he gets so hot, because it was in the middle of the summer, he takes his shirt off and. And Jill was, like, stunned because she. Because he was ripped. I mean, Phil was ripped up at 68 years old. I mean, he was just chiseled. And Uncle Tommy was the same way.

[Jace]

And he never worked out. He worked outside.

[Phil]

Yeah, outside.

[Zach]

Jill was like, good night, Phil. You're like. Like a brick house. Zach, what happened to you?

[Jace]

Well, that's. Hey, look, I used that to get back to, you know, Chuck Norris. And look, I'm. I'm sorry he died, but it's. This is the hand we're dealt. But I. When the Chuck Norris craze with all the Saiyans was going on, I guess it still is. I verbally said, well, you should meet my dad. Because I'm like. He invented this kind of mindset as

[Phil]

far as very much, very similar.

[Jace]

Get out of the way and watch this. I mean, you talking about one tough, gritty human being. That was my dad. And so everybody who knew him well, I mean, it's shocking how strong the man was and how tall.

[Phil]

It hit me this year, or, you know, last year, actually, when I turned 60. But when I. I got to thinking mom and dad or mine and Lisa's age, when this whole kind of the phenomenon era started, it was the Benelli show, that was on the Outdoor Channel, that then led to the. To the Duck show and all that, but they were our age. They were around early 60s. They were running all over the country, just like we're doing flights here and there, speaking all over the place, writing books, doing commercials in between, no days off, just getting after it. And it hit me, I was like, that's what we're doing, the exact same thing. But you can do that until one day you look up and you camp.

[Jace]

Well, right?

[Phil]

And then all of a sudden it was just, it was over. And it just seemed like it went by so fast that last decade. And so it made me realize that the clock is ticking. So. But it doesn't want to slow me down. I want to do just the opposite. I'm speeding up.

[Zach]

So the first time that I got a term life insurance policy was right before my first child was born. Al, I know you've talked about someone gifted you your first one.

[Phil]

That was, it was a guy, we love him, he called Big Boy. And he was an insurance salesman and he gifted that to me going into the seminary to become a preacher. So I've always appreciated that.

[Zach]

Well, I've had term life insurance for over 20 years now and now I've got five kids. So of course we've added a few more policies along the way. But, you know, I think it's the responsible thing to do to make sure that your family's taken care of in the event that something could happen to you. Which is why I want to tell you about Fabric. Fabric by Gerber Life. It's a term life insurance policy you can get done today. It's made for busy parents just like you, all online, all on your schedule, right from your couch. You can be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. Fabric has flexible, high quality policies that fit your family and your budget like a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. And it's really a no brainer because there's no risk. There's a 30 day money back guarantee. You can cancel at any time. So join the thousands of parents who trust fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just [e-mail] unashamed. That's meatfabric.com unashamed M E-E E T fabric.com un unashamed policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company. Not available in certain states. Prices are subject to underwriting and health questions.

[Jace]

Well, I was more referring to if you think I'm embellishing about my dad because everybody says that. Oh yeah, my dad said he walked, you know, barefoot, uphill, both ways in the snow. Just keep in mind that my dad did not use any kind of deadening or what is that stuff called, you know, numbing agent, gas none of that. And he. And. And I'll give you three examples. Just off the top of my head from a root canal. No deadening. Wide awake. Nothing is numbed.

[Phil]

Yep.

[Jace]

Had a rod removed from his eyeball. No deadening. No. Put you under. No, none of that. And then the first man maybe on the planet to ever have. Whatever that procedure is, where they go up in there to remove kidney stones or break them up into the south of the border. What makes a male a male. The most profound member. He did that, to the doctor's surprise, without any. Because they put people under to do that. My dad was watching the video, so just saying. I'm not trying to embellish that. The man was just on another level.

[Phil]

He had a very high pain tolerance. I'll tell you two more that I personally witnessed. One was they cut a cyst out of his back. No, no, topical. Normally, you know, he put a little topical on there at the very least, because you're literally cutting and pulling that thing out. He did that with. And I was there for that one. And then I saw Granny one day pull a thorn. I'd say it was probably 2 inches long. 2 to 3 inches long. I mean, it's this long. That had gone in his eye right in the corner.

[Jace]

And she could make me know.

[Phil]

I know she could see the spec. She started pulling that thing out. And I was just standing there. I was. I guess I was a teenager. And it was right there in that front bathroom in that greenhouse. Jay, where was your room? Drywear. And she pulls that thing out. And my eyes got so big because it just. It was so. It just kept coming, you know, Dad's like, man, that feels better. That's what he's saying, man.

[Jace]

The only time I can remember that I saw him a little fearful. I can only remember one time me and him were going to run the nets, the commercial fishing nets at night. Because that was something we did every once in a while. And when we got in the boat, I thought we had a light, but I saw something move. And he went Congo in the boat. And he jumped out of the boat, which I jumped out too. But then he. He looked back in it and he said he jumped out of the boat. So then we jumped back in.

[Phil]

All of a sudden you went to safety. Back to safety.

[Jace]

And I just found it shocking.

[Phil]

Yeah.

[Jace]

That he jumped out of the boat. I just.

[Phil]

It is pretty. It is pretty amazing that he was never snake bitten.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Phil]

As much time as he spent around poisonous snakes because that. That old beaver dam breaking up stuff.

[Jace]

There was a snake and one. The most famous blind we have is called the lake blind. And it became a city. It was a three sided blind that would actually hold at one time. Now we only have one side left. But a storm came through and disassembled the three sides. So we turned it into three blinds. But back in the day this is the one where we had bunk beds and a kitchen in its original form.

[Phil]

A stove, a full stove.

[Jace]

It was a house. It was a house and you could live there. And my dad would always say hey, war breaks out or whatever, we're moving to that lake. That's where we're moving. But during the this time of year

[Phil]

the problem is it's everybody else's house for the other nine months of the year.

[Jace]

This time of the year, which now are spring. Well all these critters out in the wild, they're not going to turn that down because the humans leave and you have a fortress out in the middle of one of the most rugged swamps in the world.

[Phil]

Bees, purple tailed wasps.

[Jace]

So there's a debugging, desnaking, cleaning up process that happens before the next duck season. Every year we would go do it and I hated it. They actually filmed it. Other shows would come down, film us doing it. Alligator was in the blind one time.

[Phil]

Exterminator tried it. Abort, abort. That's set on the mission.

[Jace]

That is true. We were the one set that they tried to film a show and they said nope, too many. The walls.

[Phil]

One of the guy, the brother was allergic to washings. I couldn't have been stamina, you remember that?

[Jace]

That's crazy. I guess we can talk about that now. But so well, I was wanting to tell this one story though. One year we were, we're doing it. We had the whole crew. We completely, I mean we killed snakes, we, we got rid of the wasp, we cleaned it up. And all that was filled with moments of terror for everybody, you know. And my dad was sitting on the corner of the blind in and he turned to everybody, we were, we were all just like taking a deep breath.

[Phil]

Job well done.

[Jace]

It was job well done.

[Phil]

Mission accomplished.

[Jace]

Phil said, well, we got it all done boys. Good, good job. And when I looked up and I saw a clump in a button willow that was used as brush. It was a growing button willow. I would say a foot from his right ear and there was a clump. And I looked at it and it was a cottonmouth called up one foot from his ear. And I said phil, don't Take this the wrong way, but there's a bull Congo right by your right ear. And he went, yeah, yeah. I said, no, I'm serious. He said, yeah. I was like, don't make any sudden moves. And he said, are you serious? I said, he's called up. He's like, cottonmouth. He started arguing with me. Cottonmouths don't climb trees, Jase. I was like, there's one in that bush, and it's not a water snake. It is a cottonmouth. And he moved back and looked, and he said, well, you're right. He reached around for his weapon and just incinerated the bush and said, snake. He said, that dog on rat. Yeah, he wasn't scared of that for whatever reason because the snake wasn't in an aggressive position. But still, still doesn't take a snake

[Phil]

long to get it.

[Jace]

Then everybody realize it's where you go in and out of the blunt. We. We have gone under this snake the whole. All day.

[Phil]

All day.

[Jace]

He just sitting there.

[Phil]

Yeah.

[Jace]

I thought

[Phil]

if it had just dropped down on top of one of you. That have been. That's why I'm saying it's amazing it never happened. What's ironic, Z, your mom did get bitten by poisonous snake. She did.

[Zach]

When she was a little girl's reaction when she did was, there's nothing wrong with you.

[Phil]

Well, she was. Because the way we just talked about his pain tolerance was. So, yeah, she.

[Zach]

The way she tells the story is that. That the grass was about knee high because, you know, Phil learned not to mow the yard from, I guess his parents, our grandparents, and he. And they were playing football in the yard. Fill the boys and all of our uncles. And my mom was kind of like the. I think her role was just. She was kind of like the servant worker, you know what I mean? She, she. She kind of kept that role. You know, she cleaned everybody's house. I remember she was always the, you need something done, she's the one you call. So it feels like, go run up there and get some water. She said, I. I don't want to run through that grass because I don't want to get bit by a snake. It feels like you're not get bit by a snake. Go, go get us a jug of water. So she runs over there, fills it up with water. She's running back and she's scared the whole time, and she. She feels something hit her toe like, like an intense pain. And she knew she had been bit by a snake. And so then when she gets back to Phil, she's Like, I just got bit by a snake. And then. So let me. Let me see it. And so he looked at her toe, and there was only one. Like, there was a prick mark on it. And he said, no, not a snake. And he. She said, he took the a stick and drew a circle in the sand. And he put two dots. He said, snake. Two. Two fangs, your toe, one hole. Not a snake. And so she. She said, I got bit by. I know I got bit by a snake. Well, this whole thing unfolds as she ends up back in the house with Granny and Paul. And then she starts to get sick, and then her leg starts to swell up, and there's red veins, like red streaks going up her leg. And Granny's like, I think, take her to the hospital. And you know, of course, my granddad was kind of, you know how he was. Nah, she'll be all right.

[Phil]

That's where dad got a lot of his. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Zach]

So my mom's, like, dying. Like, she's literally starts to vomit. Intense fever, the whole. I mean, this. The whole thing.

[Jace]

And.

[Zach]

And the whole time, Paul. And then Granny finally, like, you know, she had her way too. Finally. She's like, she got so animated that Paul's all right. I guess I'll take her. So he takes her to the hospital, and sure enough, she had gotten bit by a water moccasin. And so one thing on the foot she was running. So one thing went in her, but that was the infamous mom got bit by a cottonmouth. And Phil and Paul told her she'd be all right. Story. So we got out of Christmas, got out of New Year's, got all of that. After all the holiday craziness out, the last thing you want to do is to overthink dinner.

[Phil]

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[Zach]

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[Phil]

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[Zach]

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[Phil]

since we're talking about snake bites. One last Chuck Norris joke. A cobra bit Chuck Norris, and five days later, the cobra died a painful death. All right, that's it.

[Jace]

Well, I'll make a good segue here. All right, before we read this First John 4, where we're going to talk about today in First John 3, in verse 8, because don't you find it fascinating that the evil one took the form of a serpent?

[Phil]

That's true.

[Jace]

In the garden. Right. Now, whether that's literal or used as an analogy, I'm open for suggestion.

[Phil]

Yeah. Because it was. Whatever it was is a little different than what we would know. Because remember, one of the curses was. You'll be slithering the rest of the way. So I don't know if they could walk. I don't know what was going on there, but I don't know that it was different. But people do not like snakes by nature.

[Jace]

People like to talk about all that, but the point of it is that there are spiritual forces of evil.

[Phil]

Yeah.

[Jace]

And how that happened. There are a ton of views on, you know, where did the evil and how did that happen? You know, there's this interesting take in Ezekiel 28 that it's a prophecy, but it's intertwined with real people and. Yeah. The king of somewhere. And all of a sudden it's like, well, that sounds like it's kind of giving you some hints into the evil one's origin, like a fallen angel. But I just want to point out that this profound verse that we read in First John 3, where it says verse 8 says, he who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning, which he goes back to the garden moment in Genesis 3, the reason the son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

[Phil]

I mean, which would be sinning.

[Jace]

Right. That means something. I mean, Jesus came to defeat. I mean, he Came for a lot of reasons in the flesh. Because that's kind of what one John is zeroing in on. Like the Antichrist is one that doesn't acknowledge Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. 4, 3, 4, 2 and 3 of 1 John. But there, that means something. I tend to think as followers of Jesus, we zero in on one thing and make that the thing, but part of what God did through Jesus and giving us the Holy Spirit, which is all over the place in what we're reading in chapter three and chapter four, he came to defeat and destroy the devil's work.

[Phil]

And where we are in our context, as in 4, 7, 21, he says, basically him coming here to do that work for us is the ultimate illustration of love, of his love. I mean, it's the biggest illustration.

[Jace]

Well, I want to remind you, and this was my idea literally one minute before we started where I wanted to go, because there's something interesting that happens or something interesting that happens from a biblical perspective in that the Hebrew word for atonement is all over the place in the Old Testament.

[Phil]

Yeah.

[Jace]

Now when you get to the New Testament, not so much. And so you're like, well, what happened? How come it's not talked about much? And the verse I want to point out, and this is not the first time it's mentioned in 1 John. But we really didn't talk about it the first time it was mentioned. The first time it was mentioned was in First John 2. 2, speaking of Jesus being our advocate. Advocate or crudely, you know, our lawyer in heaven. But it's that Greek word parakletos, which we went through, which is used as reference by John to be the Holy Spirit four times in John 14 and then in John 16. But here he uses it as Jesus on our defense, being alongside of us, speaking in our defense. And then he says in verse 2, he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. So that that phrase, atoning, sacrifice, that in Greek, there's a word that is being translated atonement. Well, it's only used twice, this specific word in the New Testament here and First John 4, 10. But to finish the verse, it says, he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world. So there's one and the other. You're like, this is the only two times it's mentioned, this exact phrase. This is it. Now, there's a cousin of this mentioned elsewhere, and I'm going to bring that up. But first John 4, 10, this is love, not that we love God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. So you see, it was translated the same phrase. So you say, why bring this up now if you're new to the faith? You probably don't realize that the idea of atonement is muchly debated on what it means. I would say borderline controversial. Zach?

[Zach]

Oh, it's been very controversial. And there's been, well, one thing that happened recently, there's a book that was written that came out that got a lot of traction about, you know, one camp wants to kind of, well, it's kind of nuanced, but one camp wants to deny the atonement as part of of salvation. The other and then another group maybe wants to over emphasize atonement. And there's kind of different variations in between. And what does the atonement mean?

[Jace]

Well, let's focus on the second one. Focus on the second one. There's different. Now how did you just put that There are different variations in stress, what that means a lot of. There's been a phrase that came up and I'm going to I did a little research on it, but it's actually not in the Bible, but it's deducted from biblical verses and it's a phrase that's called psa and it's not public service announcement, which is kind of funny, but it's called penal substitution atonement. So and where I'm going with this is you say, well, how do we define this? Because let me just give you the different words that are used for atonement. So this is one. I can't pronounce these things because I'm not a Greek. But so this one here in First John 2, I can spell it for you. It's H I L A S M O S. So what is that? Elasmus. All right, so it so if I do an AI gives you an overview, it says atoning sacrifice used in First John 2, 2 and 4:10 exclusively to describe Jesus as the and now here's another word, propitiation for sins as explained. And then he puts the resource here or he I'm calling AI he. Then you have another word for propitiation, which is this word is H I L A S T E R I O N. Now according to this, it's used twice. It's used in Romans 3:25. So I think I should read that. And it's more about the mercy seat or the place that this propitiation, which will define you want to give a Definition on that, Zach, what people say

[Phil]

this morning, I thought back to a couple of past dogs we had. One I thought of was Gabe.

[Jace]

Oh, yeah. Gabe was my best friend in my childhood.

[Phil]

Gabe. Gabe was a very protective, wonderful animal. And so, you know, we. We love our pets right there. Therefore, she have these great memories when you think about them. And that's why we want to take care of them, which is why Rough Greens comes into play. What happens is your animals, your dogs get older, they get a little slower, they get a little pickier about their food. Sometimes the digestion doesn't work like it should. And the main reason why is that traditional dog food are missing key ingredients are missing probiotics, enzymes, omega oils, and most importantly, the live vitamins your dog needs to digest and absorb food. That's where Ruff Greens comes in. It's America's number one dog supplement. You sprinkle it right on their food. It's packed with all the live nutrients that they need. Plus it's all natural and made right here in the good old US Of A. Ruff Greens is helping dogs feel younger, more energetic, healthier than they have in years. And your dog could be one of them.

[Jace]

All you need to know if this is something they enjoy is when you start wrestling that bag. You just watch them and they love it.

[Phil]

They get excited, mind do as well. Coats are shinier, definitely. You'll notice the difference. Get a free jump start trial bag for your dog. You just cover the shipping. Go to rough greens.com use the discount code. Unashamed Rough Greens. We make any dog food better.

[Jace]

All right, so Romans 3:25. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement. Now, I have a little letter in my Bible and it says, or is the one who would turn aside God's wrath taking away sin. But this was the 1984 NIV. There's another letter in the current NIV that says, See Leviticus 16:15 and 16. Let's see, Leviticus 16, 15 and 16. I guess I need to read the. So we'll do the technical side of this and then we can talk about it. Practically. Leviticus 16:15 says. So now we're going Old Testament. We're going to the law. The day of atonement is the title in Leviticus 16. It says, he shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people, and take its blood behind the curtain and. And do with it as he did with the bull's blood. He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover. And in front of it. In this way, he will make atonement for the most holy place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been.

[Phil]

So this is the seat on top of the ark is what it is. And it looks like two angels, two cherubs, and that's what's called the mercy seat.

[Jace]

So I think that's helpful because the other verse that that word is used, and look, this is the only two on this one. So you have two for this propitiation, which we haven't defined yet, Zach.

[Phil]

Hebrews 9:5.

[Zach]

Yeah, I mean, I think propitiation would be that there's an infraction, there's a payment that must be satisfied, maybe a debt.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Consequence of sin or even the wrath. You know, we sing the song, the wrath of God is satisfied. That's where the big debate's at right now is does God pour out his wrath on the Son? That's the big question.

[Jace]

We'll save that because we'll just get the technical stuff. Because that's the one point I have issue with. And look, you don't agree with me, fine, read the verses and come up with what you will. But I just want to get the technical stuff. So I want to read this Hebrews 9 on the other word about the place, because I believe that's the presence of God. It was in Leviticus, he's coming into the tabernacle, they're doing these sacrifices. Now Jesus is making the presence of God in heaven itself, which is the Hebrews 9:5.

[Phil]

And the description before you read it is the Hebrew writer is describing the holy place, the most holy place, what's in there and how each of these things mattered to God.

[Jace]

Right.

[Phil]

So that's the seven.

[Jace]

So Hebrews 9:5, above the ark were the cherubim of the glory, overshadowing the atonement cover or the mercy seat. Now then there's three different times in Hebrews that it talks about Jesus entered heaven itself on our behalf. So you're getting the idea of atonement to make the presence of God available for humans. So you have those two words and then you have another word. This is when atonement is involved and it's translated reconciliation in your Bible. So this is Romans 5, 11. I'll read it real quick. So it's different words. So when you. My point for doing all this is when you read atonement in the Bible, we just have English speaking translations which have the same word. But I'm telling you these are different words. So it will help you understand the arguments and what this means and how to figure this out if you put the right word with the right translation in the text. So for this word reconciliation, and it's spelled K A T kat, K A T A L, L A G e. So Romans 5:11 says, not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Now, and you remember the context. While we were sinners, verse 8, God demonstrates His own love for us. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Verse 9. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him? See, it's the same talk about God's wrath, the blood, the sacrifice, his love. Yeah, but it's a different word. This is reconciliation. This is why the original word atonement in the English language, go do a rabbit hole on it. Literally meant at one mint. So it's at one, two parties that are estranged or broken or alienated, they have been united at one. So that's why atonement, that's where we get the English word, you see. So the other place, it's only used four times, but there are versions of reconciliation all over the place. So that's used a lot.

[Phil]

Second Corinthians 5 is used.

[Jace]

Oh, two Corinthians 5. I was going to read it, because that's where we need to hang out a little bit to understand this. So 2 Corinthians 5, we have this judgment seat of Christ that shows up in verse 10. And then we have verse 14, I think is key because it says, for Christ, love compels us. Because keep in mind, before I give you my thoughts, these two words for this propitiation or satisfying God's wrath are only used in 1 John. And 1 of them is used in a chapter where the word love is used 27 times in 15 verses. I do not think that's an accident because jumping ahead to where the argument's formed, some people tend to stress the appeasement of God's wrath, and some people stress God's love. And this judgment is an act of love because of his righteousness, his justice. I kind of lean on that side because this word is brought up in a chapter where it says God is love. So let me read where it says reconciliation. So in verse. Well, let me read verse 14 of chapter 5, 2 Corinthians, the whole thing. For Christ's love compels us because we are convinced that One died for all, and therefore all died. Which is similar to First John 2, which says he's the atoning sacrifice, not only for those who are following, but for the whole world. But then it says, if anyone is in Christ, verse 17, he's a new creation. The old is gone. All this is from God who reconciled. So there's another word used for atonement, this cat word. And then he gave us the ministry of reconciliation. So we actually had the ministry of atonement, bringing people back together with God through declaring Jesus the Holy Spirit.

[Phil]

Which is exactly why I believe God John said that not only for our sins, but the sins of the whole world. Christ's sacrifice for atonement is big enough to always be available for more, which is the point Paul's making here. But some of the argument on the other side is that is, no, we got what we need. And I'm like, no, it's bigger than that. You got to think bigger. It's more. More is the word.

[Jace]

Exactly. So now I'm just going to declare where I'm at. And I realize some people will not agree with me. I'm pretty sure that most of those people are not listening to this podcast because I've had multiple discussions with people and I'm like, okay, you're highlighting the wrath of God. I'm more highlighting love. But I believe, like, in penal substitution, I believe there's a payment that had to be made. I believe that Jesus substituted himself for us.

[Phil]

I even think the reason he chose the way to do it, because it was certainly his choice, because he said, you don't take my life. I give it was to show how bad sin is.

[Jace]

Oh, agree.

[Zach]

Well, because when you get into the. I think the biggest issue is if some camps would say that the Father poured out his hatred and wrath on the Son.

[Jace]

Right? Now, I don't agree with that. So I'm just. I was fixed to say that. Number one, I don't agree that Jesus was punished by God. Here's why. And I'll just give you my overtake in as fast as I can. So when I think fire and punishment, I think Genesis. Where's the story of Sodom and GoMorrah? Genesis, oh, 19, 24 and 25. And look, Jude on his take on Sodom and Gomorrah, he uses the word punished. They were punished as an example.

[Phil]

Right?

[Jace]

I'll give you another verse 2 Thessalonians 1:8, talking about fire and punishment. It says that when Jesus comes back, he will punish those who do not Know God, he'll come in blazing fire. And who don't know the truth? Well, I'm looking at Jesus. Well, he knows God. And nowhere in this book does it say he punished Jesus. That's why I went through the technical analysis of this, because that's the Greek word for the place of atonement. Him opening up God's presence to us. But it says he punished sin in sinful man.

[Zach]

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[Jace]

So in Romans 8, this is where this comes from. But just read it carefully. Verse 1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Because through Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin or death. For what the law is powerless to do, and that it was weakened by the sinful nature.

[Phil]

Here we go.

[Jace]

God did by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. Now we're not saying he didn't offer his son. And look, we're not saying Based on John 10 that Jesus didn't willingly give up his life, which we did a whole podcast on. The definition of love is Jesus giving himself.

[Phil]

That's the ultimate example.

[Jace]

Yeah. So. And so here we go. He condemned sin in sinful man in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us.

[Phil]

So.

[Jace]

And that's why I also said he also defeated these spiritual forces of evil that had a hand in that. That's why. First John 3.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's. Well, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus for the law. The spirit of life has set you free in Jesus Christ Jesus from the law, sin and death. For what? For God has done with the law weakened by the flesh. So that's a big line there. Why was the law weakened by the flesh is because the flesh is sinful like we are. We're in sinful flesh. And so Christ. So we couldn't do so. Christ. But Christ never sinned, but he does entered into flesh. And so if you think about the. Even as we're in first and Second John, think about how, how John defines the Antichrist. The Antichrist is anyone who says that Christ did not come in the flesh. Well, why is that? Because that's the whole point of Christ. God comes in flesh, lives a perfect life in human flesh. And that flesh is killed and then that flesh is vindicated through the resurrection. And so it is a lot about victory. I tend to hold the position though that there is a payment, there is sin has to be paid for. Where I think that people push back against the hard. What I would say more of the hard view that the Son himself, God didn't pour his wrath out on the sin in the sun. He poured his wrath out on the Son. I think you have issue there with the disruption of the triune nature of God. Did God really turn his face away? Let's bring that up, for example, you know, whenever he says, my God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? This is, this is actually a key point. Let me get my Bible because I gotta. Hold on one second. Hold that thought.

[Jace]

Well, I would say, Zach, while you're looking that up, I mean, Jesus is still suffering today in us. I mean there's a ton of verses that. Remember when he told Saul, he said, why are you persecuting me? Well, we have the spirit of him in us. My whole point is if he was being punished, not punishing sin, then why in the world would the whole four gospels would he be telling us to give our lives up? Why would the Apostles, look, all die. Martyrs, death. If this was somehow us being punished.

[Zach]

But you gotta. You have to understand where they get that from. They get that. I think people get there. I understand how you would get there. Because when Christ is on the cross, he does say, my God, my God, why have thou forsaken me? Right. So do you have this picture on the cross of what seems to be the Father turning his face away from the Son? We used to sing this song at church. The Father turns his face away. But here's why I have an issue with that, is mainly because I think that what Jesus is doing there when he says, my God, my God, why have thou forsaken me? I think he's quoting Psalm 22.

[Jace]

He's not. Don't think it. He's quoting it. So go read Psalm 22.

[Zach]

Let me read Psalm 22. And you tell me, just by reading of the psalm here, if. If this is a picture of the Father turning his face away, is this a picture of the Father hiding his face from the Son? That's the phrase we want to hang on to. Is the Father, According to Psalm 22, hiding his face from the Son? My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from me, saving me from the words of my groaning? Oh, my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I do not find rest. Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel, if you are. And you our fathers trusted, and you delivered them to you. They cried out, and you rescued them in you they trusted and were not put to shame. And then he goes on and you see this whole thing about the dogs encircle me. He says, a company of evildoers encircle me. They pierce my hands. What does that sound like? Sounds like the crucifixion, right? They pierce my and feet. This is Psalm 22:16. I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. What does that sound like exactly? What happened to Jesus? But you, O Lord, do not be far off. And he keeps on asking the Lord to save him. God save me, save me, save me. And then skip down to the last these few verses here. This is in verse 24. For he is not despised or abhorred. The affliction of the afflicted. And listen to this. And he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard him when he cried. So I'm reading the Psalmist here. And the psalmist clearly says that as the Christ cries out, don't forsake me. The answer is I'm not. The answer is I'm not. The Father does not hide his face from him, and the Father has heard the Son when he cried to him. So I think when you read Psalm 22, that verse 24, to me, it really kind of destroys that view that somehow God looked on the Son and when he was on the cross was just like, I can't look anymore. And he turned away and rejected the Son. I don't know how that's possible, even ontologically in the very nature of how that's possible.

[Jace]

I agree, and I agree that there is a payment made. He did pay for the sins. It does make you sin utterly sinful to me. Your attitude is not going to change as far as abhorring sin and what it does to people and the consequences. And he did make the payment. I just have the motivating factor as love. When you read 2 Corinthians 5, where it says, for Christ's love compelled us, now you say, what was the context of that? Now, I want you to notice this. I think 2 Corinthians 5 is so incredibly difficult to get around because he starts off with this judgment scene about all appearing for the judgment seat of Christ. Because what this. It's hard for me to characterize their argument because I don't want to get it wrong. But what this making appeasing God's judgment the gospel, instead of God's judgment being appeased through the offering of his Son in love, which is where I'm at. Which sounds similar, but. But I'm just saying I've talked to these people and they're like, oh no. Oh no. The stress is God's appeasement. The love is minimized. Now they'll agree with it, but it's just minimized. So in all the sermons, you're like, hey, it's not good news. And that's my biggest problem with it. And it is detached from the resurrection. So in light of.

[Zach]

Can I. Can I say one thing? Because we're about out of time and I do probably could pick this up because I made a pretty bold statement there, I think could get a lot of people upset. But on the flip side, there is a flip side of this that we also have to deal with, that there's another side of this argument that basically says, God's not really mad at all at you for your sin. You're a sinner in your own mind. You're not actually. And God is just like. And I think that's equally damaging because you're talking about that.

[Jace]

Well, I think that's just almost downright silly. That's why I brought up Sodom and Gomorrah. But now you want punishment. That was punishment. But what I was going to make a point. I didn't realize we were almost out of time. And I want to say this. What God tell the humans in the garden, if you sin, what will happen?

[Phil]

He'll die.

[Jace]

You'll die as a punishment? I would say yes. Well, when you look at Jesus, why stress all this? After he died, his body didn't see decay. Why did the first apostles stress that in their sermon? You remember Acts 2. It's like, well, he didn't experience that punishment for sin. He didn't have any sin. And it takes me back to the story of Abraham and Isaac. You remember that, where he was willing to sacrifice and God would have been justified in doing that. He would have been sinful or Abraham was sinful. Why didn't he do that? Why is that the shadow? Are you willing to do it? I just don't think you can make that up for showing that God did this willingly out of love. So I do want to read this 2 Corinthians 5 al. Because I, I brought it up. So he gives the judgment scene, verse 10. Then he gets to 14 and he says, if we're out of our mind, that's 13. For Christ's love compels us. Christ's love because we are convinced that one died for all. He equated his love with him dying on a cross for everybody. Which was going to be point number two is that I don't agree that Jesus was punished. He took the punishment for our sin, the punishment and consequences of sin that we did. He took that by dying. And number two, for some reason that they didn't conclude that he didn't die for everybody. And in both cases, where. Which there's only four verses, this talks about it. He makes a point to say, and he didn't just die for you, he died for everybody. And here he equates it to Christ's love. And he said, and therefore all died,

[Phil]

which I take from that, that flesh is not bad. The choice to disobey God is what's bad.

[Jace]

Hope this helps. And look, hold on.

[Zach]

Let me give one disclaimer because I didn't get to say there's so much nuance around this. Don't take anything we said in this and turn it into a sound bite because this is a much bigger discussion. Well, that probably there's a lot here.

[Jace]

Yeah, yeah.

[Phil]

Context is king. All right, we're out of time.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

I think the subtle differences, that's why this is so frustrating. Like overall, like I said, I agree with the concepts, but it's what you stress and you know, look, fire is a punisher, but it's also a refiner.

[Phil]

Yeah.

[Jace]

So every time you read the word fire, it's not necessarily a bad thing even though suffering is involved.

[Phil]

Yeah, a good point. All right, we're out of time. We'll pick it up next time. Don't run ashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.