Ep 1303 | What Happened at Jase & Missy’s House Last Weekend Reveals a Growing Cultural Shift

Summary

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Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1303 | The Phil Robertson Rule: When It’s Actually Right to Get Angry
Date: April 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this thoughtful and lively episode, the Robertsons—including Al, Jase, and Zach—discuss the complexities of Christian anger, atonement, and God's love. The conversation intertwines stories of recent baptisms, mentorship among women, and historical reflections on early Christianity. Central to the episode is a deep dive into the significance of anger, both human and divine, and the theological debate on the nature of God's wrath and Christ's atonement on the cross. The family brings authentic personal anecdotes, Biblical insight, and their signature humor and candor to these weighty topics.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Celebrating Faith, Baptism, and Community

• Recent Baptisms and Weddings

  • Special guests Jonathan and Gloria, podcast listeners, had just been baptized and married, marking a joyful occasion for the community (01:13).
  • The Robertsons discuss the impact of church family and how faith-centered events foster spiritual growth.

• Mentor Weekend and Women in Faith

  • Missy’s mentor weekend saw several young women baptized after encountering Christ deeply. The power of older women guiding the younger, as prescribed in Titus 2, is highlighted (16:07–19:10).
  • "I thought, I can't tell the water from the tears. I mean, it was really powerful to me." – Jase (17:48)

2. Understanding Christian History and Roots

• Ancient Christianity and Archaeological Discoveries

  • The family expresses excitement about learning early church history through the Hillsdale course, emphasizing the importance of Christianity's historical grounding (03:23–04:57).
  • They reference artifacts like a 200 A.D. mosaic declaring Jesus as "the Son of God," reinforcing the faith's historical veracity (04:19–04:57).
  • “This whole thing is anchored in the history of the world… Christ entered… at a particular place on the planet at a particular time in history that can be documented on a calendar. I mean, that is just profound to me.” – Zach (08:06–09:14)

• Overcoming Worldly Power

  • The transformation of a small band of Jesus followers, onlooked by the Romans, into a force that overcame Rome—not through violence but through love (12:22–13:14).

3. Religious Rituals vs. Relationship with Jesus

• Faith Practice and True Salvation

  • Many people, even those attending church, miss the centrality of Jesus, relying on rituals or moralism rather than relationship (19:10–20:33, 23:39–24:59).
  • "Without Jesus at the core... those things will never make sense for what they're supposed to be." – Al (24:09–24:59)

• Living Through Christ

  • They reflect on 1 John 4:9 about living "through him," linking it to God speaking through prophets, and now, believers living through Christ’s work (29:16–30:32).
  • The grace that allows believers to live freely and fearlessly, not weighed down by rule-keeping or uncertainty (31:23–31:32).

4. Theological Deep Dive: Wrath, Anger, and the Atonement

• God’s Wrath: Heresy or Mystery?

  • The discussion turns to one of the most hotly debated topics in Christian theology: Was God angry at Jesus on the cross?
  • Jase distinguishes God’s “forsaking” in Deuteronomy 31 as a response to Israel’s disobedience, not a template for God’s attitude toward Christ (39:54–43:39).
  • "There’s a difference in being angry and forsaking." – Jase (40:48)

• The Cry of Abandonment: Psalm 22 and the Cross

  • Jesus’ “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” is interpreted as the fulfillment of Psalm 22, representing Jesus embodying the forsakenness of sinful humanity, not the Father’s anger at the Son (43:30–43:40, 47:19–48:21).
  • Zach: “He did not turn his face away. And the argument... is that would be a rupture in the very nature of who God is…” (47:37–48:21)

• Trinitarian Love and the Nature of Atonement

  • The crucifixion is described as a triune act: not “cosmic child abuse” but the Father, Son, and Spirit acting together out of love (49:00–50:16).
  • "Whatever happened on the cross… it was an act of divine quality and economy… God in his triune nature accomplishes this and it's finished." – Zach (49:09–50:16)

• Real Rage, Righteous Anger

  • The Robertsons acknowledge anger, citing God as angry 85% of the time anger is mentioned in the Bible (55:56–56:17), yet asserting that divine anger proceeds from love, not vindictiveness.
  • "Anger can lead you to sin… but it's not a sin. 85% of the 600 times [anger is mentioned], God is the one who's angry." – Al (55:56)

5. Anger, Justice, and When It’s Right to Be Angry

• Defending What’s Right
  • Jase draws the line at true offense: “If you talk about our wife or our dogs or mess with our kids... we’re not gonna be offended. We're just gonna whip your butt." (57:00–57:23)
  • The group agrees that anger in the face of true evil or injustice is not only justified but is an expression of protective love (57:29–57:56).
  • Zach recounts a story of a person intervening in child abuse: "That level of anger flows from love. And I think the same thing is true with God." (57:29–57:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"If you talk about our wife or our dogs or mess with our kids, we're not gonna be offended. We're just gonna whip your butt."
— Jason, (57:00–57:23)

"This whole thing is anchored in the history of the world... Christ entered... at a particular place on the planet at a particular time in history that can be documented on a calendar."
— Zach, (08:06–09:14)

"I can't tell the water from the tears. I mean, it was really powerful to me."
— Jase, (17:48)

"Without Jesus at the core... those things will never make sense for what they're supposed to be."
— Al, (24:09–24:59)

"He did not turn his face away... If your understanding of atonement disrupts the Trinity in any way… then I think you need to get rid of that understanding."
— Zach, (47:37–49:09)

"85% of the times [anger is mentioned], God is the one who's angry."
— Al, (56:17)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Wedding & Baptism Celebration — 00:36–02:35
• Ancient Christianity Course & History — 02:35–09:14
• Jesus’ Historical Impact vs. Worldly Power — 09:14–13:14
• Mentor Weekend, Women’s Baptisms — 15:25–20:33
• Faith: Rituals vs. Relationship with Jesus — 19:10–24:59
• Hebrews & Assurance in Christ — 24:59–29:16
• 1 John 4: Living Through Christ — 29:16–31:32
• God’s Wrath, Deuteronomy 31, and the Cross — 33:07–44:39
• Trinitarian Atonement & Love’s Root — 47:19–51:45
• Anger: Divine and Human — 54:31–57:56
• When It’s Right to Get Angry — 57:00–57:56

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Tone and Language

The episode is authentic, passionate, and deeply personal, combining theological rigor with down-to-earth stories and the Robertsons’ trademark wit. The tone is both challenging and encouraging, unashamedly centered on Jesus, and open to honest debate about difficult Christian topics.

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For those who missed the episode:
This summary captures the spirit, insights, and scriptural foundation of what it means to experience righteous anger, the real heart of atonement, and the transformative power of living through Christ—all delivered in classic Robertson style.

Transcript

[Zach]

So good, so good, so good.

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[Jason]

I am unashamed.

[Zach]

What about you?

[Al]

So welcome back to Unashamed. We're a little bit giddy this morning because we had a few days off and we're kind of what it is. I think that's what it is. We had a little time off. Maddie came in. She had a different mindset of how it was going to work today. So we've been running around, and we have some guests on our set today, some special guests and friends of mine. Jonathan, Gloria, and New to the family. New to the family. They're. They're literally Zach Dripp wet this morning because they just put on the Lord in baptism, which was awesome this morning, and they got married. So I did a ceremony for them yesterday at wfr, which was really cool.

[Jason]

So y' all had a wedding?

[Al]

We had a. It was there in Jersey Joe. He still does Dad's old unashamed class. And so people that come through, we kind of route people there. And he shares the gospel and talks a little bit about what we're doing here in West Monroe.

[Jason]

I think this is the first wedding that spawned in a Bible class.

[Al]

Yeah, I think so. Well, I told the group there. It was so funny because they were from all over the country. I mean, from everywhere, because it's spring break, so they were coming through. And so I was like, y' all didn't know y was going to get to be at a wedding today, did you? And everybody's looking at me kind of funny. And so we just literally stood up in the middle of class about halfway through it. And they had had a civil service in California to be legally married, but they wanted one in a church with. Surrounded by some Christians, and they wanted to be baptized as well. So we had planned to do the baptism after service yesterday, but little Junior, they got a couple little. So if you hear anybody today squealing in the background, that's just. That's just regular noise. That's just life and future. But little Jonathan, he's a diabetic, and. But he got sick, and so they were a little worried about him. So I Said, well, look, y' all go deal with him and we'll just do the baptism tomorrow. So. But welcome. We're glad you guys are here. They're podcast listeners and Jonathan's trying to catch up. He's a little behind, but, you know, it's Zachary. One of the things we've been doing about the Hillsdale thing is offering an opportunity for people to actually come in and visit the set like my friends are today. What about. How do they do that?

[Zach]

Yeah, you can sign up for free. We're actually doing a giveaway, which is super cool. We're taking the Ancient Christianity course, and you can sign up for free. Take the course with [e-mail] and what we're going to do is we're going to invite one listener and a guest to come down to listen in on a live recording of. Of Unashamed and hang out with us. We're going to pay for travel and lodging for you and a guest, up to $1,000 each. All you got to do is take the Ancient Christianity course with us, finish all the quizzes, and then send us your [e-mail]. that's watchunashamed.com. you upload that there, and then you'll be entered in to win the drawing and we'll pick a winner in June. And yeah, then we'll have a good time. So it's been a great course, too, by the way. So I'm learning. I'm actually learning a bunch. And we're of probably my favorite course we've taken with Hillside.

[Al]

Yeah, Ancient Christianity has been great because it deals with obviously, what we talk about on this podcast, but then it kind of moves out into the political setting and then moves beyond into the first in the early centuries of kind of.

[Jason]

What does that mean?

[Al]

Well, it just means that the history of it all, like these early Christians, once we get past the first century, which is where we hang out, then a lot of things happen in terms of persecution, breaking out against the church, sort of the fight against the Roman Empire. All this stuff that we've been talking about, that revelation looks to. It's really neat because you kind of get to see how it unfolded that first two or 300 years, which has been really good.

[Jason]

Didn't they just find there was an archaeology. Archaeological. Why can't I say that today? Archaeological. How do you say that?

[Al]

Archaeological. Is that right? Is that a word?

[Jason]

You can't say it either.

[Zach]

Archaeological.

[Al]

Archaeological. Archaeological.

[Jason]

Let's just call it archaeological.

[Al]

Let's just call it that.

[Jason]

They just found something that's like the oldest engraved Jesus as the son of God. It was. It was like, I want to say 200 A.D. yeah. So I saw that somewhere and they were like, oh, you know, because all the people like this proves. And I was like, still happens by faith. But don't be shocked. It's weird to me that people are shocked. Oh, maybe he really did visit the planet. What gave it away? Yeah, you know, you read. Read the Gospels.

[Al]

Did you go over when Sadie had the Shroud of touring guy, did you go over there? Yeah, that was pretty interesting. I wish now I've been able to see that. She. She did. There's a guy. Oh, Jeremiah Johnson is his name. Did you know that?

[Jason]

I remember Jeremiah Johnson.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Not to be confused with the character.

[Al]

No, because he didn't. He looked as far away from our vision of Jeremiah Johnson. So when I met him, of course I said, you look so different than you did in the movie. And he laughed and I said, have you ever heard that one? He said, all the time.

[Jason]

You know what I asked him?

[Al]

What?

[Jason]

I said, have you ever been to a town?

[Al]

I was hoping somebody would ask that,

[Jason]

but he didn't catch it.

[Al]

He didn't catch it.

[Zach]

To your point, Jace, that you may. What you might be talking about is a mosaic that's at the Museum of the Bible. I actually got to see this and it's pretty. Pretty incredible. I think it was discovered 10 or 15 years ago, but they had the. The mosaic at the Museum of the Bible. It's on the floor. They've reconstructed or. I don't know how they did it. They brought the whole thing in. It's absolutely incredible. I don't know if you guys ever been there or not, but I went. I guess I went about maybe six months ago and it was Zach.

[Al]

I recorded two podcasts from there. Oh, did you? Yeah, I did.

[Zach]

I'm.

[Jason]

I'm fixing to go there at a date to be determined because I'm actually. I have a donation to it. Really? Well, I don't want to. Oh, yeah.

[Al]

Well, that's funny because Phyllis and Tony are wanting to donate one of Tony's original paintings of dad to it. So I've tried to connect them to the right people.

[Jason]

Well, if I told you what this is, I'm going to wait until it's properly.

[Zach]

Well, I'll tell you who's the Green family that. That own Hobby Lobby have really taken this as one of their projects. We're actually going to have if you're

[Al]

in D.C. you definitely got to go see.

[Zach]

Oh, you got to go. We're going to have David Green on this podcast next month, by the way. I really told you guys that. Yeah, he's going to come in and talk about.

[Al]

I met him many times.

[Jason]

But why would you ever be in dc?

[Al]

Well, people go there for different reasons. Yeah. Now that Trump's made it safe again, you know, make D.C. safe again, people are going, so what Missy said when she was there, she said she.

[Zach]

But I'll tell you what, this Hills Jail course has been for me, it's been encouraging. I always enjoy and find it extremely encouraging and edifying when I read anything or learn anything about our faith and how it really is a historical faith that's tied to real historical events. And it's one of the reasons that sets Christianity apart from, you know, all of the religions. The whole entire thing is rooted and connected in, like, with real history. And so when you're, you're learning about the history of this, to me, it's just like, it's such a, this isn't like a story that's make believe. It's not like Zeus and Apollos and all the Greek mythologies. I mean, this is, this is like real history. And so I think when you begin to understand Christianity in that way, then it, it takes on a different life because it's, it's not something that we're like, you know, was it Marx that said that religion is the opiate of the masses? And the idea was basically, well, this is just something you hold on to because it comforts you, it gives you, you know, a reason to live. It's like your own little subjective thing that makes you feel better about, you know, the fact that you're dying. Right. And so it's an opiate. It just kind of numbs you from the. And that's how he saw religion. But what Christianity, what's different is it's not an opiate. Like, like this whole thing is, like, anchored in. This is reality. And so you can actually go back and look at the claims of, of the, the Christian truth claims. And if they don't actually match up with these historical events, then the whole thing's a farce. The problem is, is that you can't. That's not a problem. But the good news is you cannot disprove it. This is anchored in, in the history of, of, of the world. And so to me, that's always like, super encouraging to, to, to think about. Christ entered. God entered into human history at A particular place on the planet at a particular time in history that can be documented on a calendar. I mean, that is just profound to me.

[Al]

No, it's good.

[Jason]

Well, I know we just said Eager Sunday, but one thing I think along your line of thinking is read this somewhere. It's like every year. Every year during Passover, the Romans would send these legions of soldiers because all these Jews were gathered up and they're, you know, they were sending out the message here from Rome. Don't get any ideas here because, you know, we're large groups of people, and you can read that through history. And that's why I think when Jesus came in riding on the donkey, you know, you can imagine here's the Roman soldiers going around every year in Passover, keeping the peace. Don't get any ideas of overthrowing, you know, this government, because it all goes back to Pharaoh and all that. And so here we are. You can't have any more oppression than what's being doled up by Rome.

[Al]

So, Zach, I've noticed the older we get, the metabolism slows down a little bit, and it gets a little bit harder for most of us to keep that weight off and just tends to kind of pile up on us. Have you had a similar experience, brother?

[Jason]

Oh, yeah.

[Zach]

The older you get, the slower the old metabolism works. And you got to. You got to find help out. You got to get help when you get in trouble.

[Al]

Exactly. And so the thing we typically try to do, and I've tried it through the last few years, is the keto, the paleo, the intermittent fasting. And they'll work temporarily, but then the minute you go back to regular eating, you put that weight back on and sometimes a little bit more. And the problem is, you're never really understanding about burning fat. The PhD weight loss, they've identified the one thing that helps your body burn fat. And that's why I've lost £80. Here's a picture of me at the beginning of the journey. Here I am now. So you can see there's quite a difference. I'm much healthier. I'm able to be much more active. I can do more things with my grandkids. I'm off now almost all my meds completely, as well as my CPAP machine. So I'm living life and living it to the full. And you can, too. If you call now, they'll give you two free weeks in the program and pay for your food. So you can finally see real results without more trial and error. If you're done with yo yo, dieting. And you want clarity, call PhD weight loss now and mention Al. No more guessing, just answers. Call 864-644-1900 and just say Al. That's 864-644-1900. Or you can visit myphdweightloss.

[Jason]

Do. Don't you know that was such a sight where they're looking at this guy who's on a donkey. He's got a bunch of teenage fishermen. They had to laugh. They had to be like, oh, yeah, I don't think they're a threat.

[Al]

And ultimately nobody has any weapons.

[Jason]

Well, right.

[Al]

You know, saying.

[Jason]

But my point is about what Zach said about the history. Do you realize that that little group and they're waving their little palm branches in victory over this guy riding a donkey. Do you realize that you fast forward, you know, a couple hundred years and that little band, what happened from that little band ultimately defeated Rome in love. That through the actual expression of the love that this guy embodied. I mean, to me, I just find it more fascinating when you really think of the historical that going on as a real element in history. And then ultimately from God's perspective or history's perspective, you look back, you're like, wow, that happened.

[Al]

Right? Well, and then even N.T. wright talks about that in this section, in one John, about that idea about overcoming the world. You know, I mean, the ideas that included the authorities, countries, kingdoms. I mean, this idea about overcoming. It's over, all that. And you're right, it's the long play of the kingdom of God. But Zach is a good point because Jase took it back to the first century and what they saw there. But there's still this underestimation even after all these centuries, because now you have nuclear powers and all these armed forces, and it's like that's who has the real power on the planet. The United States is the greatest nation because of our military. And these discussions go on and we realize that the kingdom of God is greater than all of it. But I love what you said about the Zach, about the timing of it too, because I did communion yesterday at our church where we meet here, and I don't get a chance to do that very often, but it was kind of a surprise visit for me to be there. So they asked me and I was like, yeah, I'd love to. And so when I got up there, you know, for communion, it's different preaching because you only got like three or four minutes. And so I said, if I were the creator of the cosmos, the God of all gods, The Lord of all lords, you know, the beginning and the end, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. And I decided to come visit the earth that I created. How would I come? And I just waited and let it pause and sit there for a minute. And then I said however I wanted to. And yet, the way he chose it in the time he did under Roman rule, to prove who he was, and the worst model of execution, maybe in the history of mankind. And we figured out a lot of bad ways to kill people for different reasons. He chose that to come here and to be who he was and to give his life. They didn't take it. So it's like, if you think about that moment in communion, it really is a huge, huge thing for the Lord that we serve. So we ready to get into.

[Jason]

Or did we leave off? We haven't met in our time.

[Al]

It's been a minute. The last time we recorded, we had Missy on, and we talked about a little bit of everything, but we.

[Jason]

We got to have her back on because

[Al]

she had her mentor weekend.

[Jason]

Mentor weekend, which is she. She takes a group of women, which

[Al]

she talked about that when she and Lisa were on last, about what she

[Jason]

does in an age bracket. I think these were, like, 21 to 30 maybe. And the last night of it, which is, I guess, would be a Saturday night. Maybe I shouldn't share this because it's, like, a surprise. But anyway, I think I will. You can always ask.

[Al]

She's already said she doesn't listen because she can't take it.

[Jason]

But she. Because it's all about the older women teaching the younger women.

[Al]

Titus.

[Jason]

Yeah. So she invites them to our home, and she cooks them a meal, and they go outside, they sit around, and she shares, basically, Jesus as the staple center for what true love is. Well, what happens every time she does these things? Well, some of these young women, they realize at some point in here, I've never given my life to Jesus. Jesus becomes real throughout this weekend. So they had five baptisms, and of course, I was listening from the bedroom, but I could hear the splash and just eruption and then all the sniffles, you know, so. But it was so weird. It happened so fast. When I walked out, met all of them. They were all crying, but, like, tears of joy now. And I thought, isn't this something that my floors are so wet because all the wet people coming around, and then they're hugging the people who were dry, but then their tears are hitting the floor. And I was just. I just kind of had a moment. I was looking at our floor, it was all these drops. And I thought, I can't tell the water from the tears. I mean, it was really powerful to me. And it was just a big pile of wet clothes, and they're all just, you know, doing women things, hugging and crying. But, you know, what a sight, you know, I was like, man.

[Al]

Well, you know, I got an interesting perspective on it, Jace, because one of them's husband was in the class that I was in yesterday where I did the wedding for Jonathan and Gloria, and his wife was one of the five that got baptized. And so I said, so, so how does she feel about that? I mean, she's excited about it. And he said, life changing. That's what he told me. He said, life changing. And he said he had. He had been a believer for a while, but she'd kind of lagged in that. And then she, you know, really was excited about this weekend, he said, and she got it. She. It all came together for her. But I thought about that, even for a couple, just because think about it. The idea of older women training younger women, which is this Titus 2 idea that Paul was relating to him, it doesn't just affect the individual life, because then that impacts a marriage, that impacts a mom and how she raised her kids. That then impacts a legacy, that she becomes a grandmother and a great grandmother and becomes a person of faith that can build legacies of Christian family. So, I mean, these moments are huge. They're not just for us in the moment and somehow escaping the fires of hell. This is building something far greater about living and about living eternally. And so these are. These are important moves.

[Jason]

I think a couple of things that stood out to me. Most of these girls, which strangely are in families where they've taken on kids that are not theirs, that they didn't give birth to. Yeah, but Ms. And I was talking about that. She's like, isn't this strange that God orchestrated this? Because she was giving me all the details. One of them had like six. Six kids that they took on, and one of them had four. Well, it's a small group of women. What are the odds? And Missy was like, of course, then we have one that we're. And they've had another one that. Who's grown now. But still, it's kind of a sign of our culture. There's kids being born with no one who's standing up to give them a proper.

[Al]

But that gives me a lot of encouragement to hear that, because we talk about this a lot on here in the pro life movement. If you want babies to survive the abortion pill now, which is the main way that they're killed. If you want them to survive that, then they have to have places to go once they're born, because obviously the person who has conceived this child can't take care of them or won't. And so they have to go someplace. And so if it's not for the people of God and others to step into the role, who's going to do it? Right.

[Jason]

Well. And obviously they have good hearts, so they wouldn't be doing that. But the second thing that stood out was because most of these people had been to church, and it's like, well, how do you miss Jesus? And all that? But that seemed to be the common theme. It's like their in quotation salvation experiences had nothing or very little to do with Jesus, which was their own. Wasn't like Missy was trying to. She wasn't going down that road. They're just like, whatever I did back then, it wasn't for the fact of who Jesus is. I get it now. I heard, eavesdropped on a couple of the conversations that went in. The passion coming out of these women about understanding who Jesus is was evident. And they were. Because Missy was like, look, why don't you just study this? You know, think you don't have to make a rash to sit there. Like, now we're all in. No, no, no, no. So it was really, really exciting. But that did. It did cause me pause because I thought, what are these churches teaching out here where these people from? They're all over the country.

[Zach]

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[Al]

Yeah, Zach, Bella was telling me that Duck Commander has used Shopify to power their store for years, so it wouldn't be what it is without Shopify.

[Zach]

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[Jason]

I actually own shares of Shopify in my portfolio.

[Zach]

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[Al]

Well, I think that it's a lot of what we talking about in this podcast and Zach, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus being the bellwether and having the relationship with him has to be the starting point. If the starting point for your Christian walk is to not do things. And you can go to the list of sins and say, well, these are bad, which we all recognize that. But my whole Christian walk is to not do these things. Which that's the way a lot of people approach Christianity. It's like a bunch of rules and I'm doing good when I'm doing that less and doing better when I'm or doing worse when I do that more. Or the other side where it's just, you know, I mean, it's a people I know I need to read my Bible more, I need to pray more. I hear people have a list of things they go through. If I just do that more, I'll get this right. But without Jesus at the core of the relationship and a full surrender submission to him, those things will never make sense for what they're supposed to be. They'll never get in their proper place. And I think that's where so many people miss it is they kind of. It's like we talk about from John 5 all the time. You have all the things around it what I want to do more and what I shouldn't do or what I should do less of instead of once I know Jesus and the Holy Spirit lives in me, that's a whole different. Those things tend to just fall into place where they should.

[Zach]

That's such a good point. Yeah. At our church we're going through the book of Hebrews right now and we Were literally just having this conversation with one of the other pastors at our church on Sunday because he's going to be teaching in a few weeks on Hebrews 6. And when you think about Hebrews 6, I mean, the first thing that should pop in your mind if you've read it is that the discussion about losing your salvation once saved, always saved all that stuff. Because there's some pretty dark language in there, right? You know, And. And so.

[Jason]

What do you mean by dark language?

[Zach]

Well, dark, like. I mean, it's a. There's a fact that that passage, when I came to Christ, or I say came back to Christ, after I had kind of lived for the devil for a few years and drifted from what I grew up knowing to be true about the faith and all that. I read that verse that it's impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted in the Holy Spirit, who had shared in the gifts of God. I can't remember exactly, but it's impossible

[Jason]

to have tasted the heavenly gift and who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the coming age. If they fall away to be brought back to repentance because to their loss, they're crucifying the Son of God all over again. Oh, I see what you're saying. Well, I didn't know what you meant by dark. It's, like, confusing. Yeah. Scary.

[Zach]

Yeah. So you're like, man, have I gone down that route. So anyways, we were talking about how he was going to preach the text, and one of the things that he said was so funny. Like we've been reading, thinking this is about, like a warning. And it is a warning. There is. I mean, Hebrews is a book of warnings. But he said, if you ever notice that the. That it's actually a positive thing. If you, if you read the very next verse, I got it pulled up here. The very next verse basically says, for. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it and produces a crop to those who, for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it's worthless and near to being cursed, and in the end it's being burned. I mean, even in a passage like, like, like that, the, the.

[Al]

The.

[Zach]

The bigger picture is not necessarily the warning. The bigger picture is what you're missing out on. And it's, it's, it's that. It's that. That garden language. It's that cultivation language. It's that Genesis 1:28. Language to be fruitful, multiplying, cultivate the garden. And I think that's what we. For whatever reason, I know there's a lot of reasons, I'm sure the way that the gospel has been presented and, you know, the church in 2000, and up until this point, at least in my lifetime, it's only been about, what, getting saved from my sin and not. And don't do all that bad stuff. And it. But there was no real picture for me growing up of this idea of the good life, to be introduced and invited into this garden of abundant production for my benefit. And that's what the Hebrew writer says, that the rain falls on the lamb and it produces a crop that's useful to those whose sake, for those for whose sake it is cultivated. So the garden is actually cultivated by. For our sakes. You think, what, God's in charge of this whole thing? He said, I want you guys to go cultivate now. Not for him. He doesn't need our praise. God doesn't need us to worship him. He's like, man, I really need a garden. I really need a garden. So let me create the humans so they can make me a garden. God doesn't need our garden. He doesn't need our fruit. He doesn't need whatever we're producing. He gives us this for our sake. And what that does is when you start to understand the gospel in this way, then it puts God and his very nature of who he is, we start to see, whoa, wait a second. This isn't a God who's trying to hold out on us. This isn't a God who has created us for his own narcissistic ego. This is a God who has our best interest at heart, and he has a life that he wants to share with us. That's a different motivation. And I think that's kind of what you're talking about, Al. Of what we're saved to and not just what we're saved from.

[Al]

Yeah, I want to read this verse to get it back to where we are in our study, because it so aligns with what you just said. ZACH. This is First John 4. 9. This is how God showed his love among us. He sent his one and only son, the one and only begotten, into the world that was here with us, that we might live through him. And I read that in prep for our study today, and I thought, just let that sit a minute. That we might live through him. And I looked up that word through in the Greek, and it's just, you Know, it's just an advanced word, but the most often used, that word, most often used in the New Testament, especially the book of Matthew, is God speaking through the prophets. That's where that word was used the most. And I thought, you think about this. So the prophets were the very words of God to establish the coming of the Messiah. That's how it is for us, living through Christ. I mean, you talk about this goes back Jay, and that's why I said in the next verse, which this is where we left off. Jason, you asked where this is love that not that we love God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice. Remember we went on the little rabbit hole.

[Jason]

We went. I never.

[Al]

I know, but this is the setup for that. So you mentioned about the twice used here and the other stuff in the rabbit hole podcast, but that's the setup for it because that's that same idea as the advocate that we talked about back from 2:1. But when we, when we're living through Christ, that takes away this idea of the fear, Zach, that you mentioned earlier, that maybe we're not doing enough or maybe we've got to. We're looking at ourselves. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Christ is there for us to live through him. So that's what the. When the fruit comes in our life, it's not even our fruit, it's the fruit of the Holy Spirit, it's the fruit of the advocate. So I mean, that's a powerful thought when you think about it, that we don't have to worry about it. That's not why. So we're unburdened by the idea of somehow doing it ourselves. Jesus took care of that.

[Jason]

Well, I wonder if that's why later in verse 18, he says that there's no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear.

[Al]

Exactly.

[Jason]

Because fear has to do with punishment.

[Al]

Right.

[Jason]

Which I drew a line in the sand on this idea about Jesus being punished or God being angry at Jesus, and I kind of introduced that in a podcast, but I didn't finish it because I wanted to get to Deuteronomy 31. I'd love to do that off the top of my head if I can remember. But because I think where the confusion, you say, well, why is that a big deal? It is a big deal because when you factor in Jesus saying in his prayer in John 17, he says this is eternal life. To know basically the Father and the one who he sent, which was himself, this is eternal life. And then he gets to the end of that prayer when he's praying for all the believers who would come, and he's like, I want them to share in the love that me and you, the Father and the Son, experience before the creation of the world. Because if you start off with God angry before anything started, that changes the whole narrative of the Bible and it will change your life.

[Al]

That's right.

[Jason]

So I wanted to read this Deuteronomy 31 to finish that. I'm sure that was five podcasts ago, but for you faithful members, you'll remember this.

[Al]

Rabbit hole lovers, we're going. I'm going to show you one where

[Jason]

the confusion happened about this idea of atonement, then leading to what I think is just flat out. Let me think of a strong word. Heresy. That's a strong word. That somehow God was punishing Jesus or angry at Jesus. And I'm going to show you how the confusion happened. So I think it all comes from one of the questions that Jesus asked. Remember, he asked over 300 questions. One question that's very difficult. Kind of like what Zach said about Hebrews six is when Jesus, right before he dies, cries out, he asks a question, but he did it to the Father. He said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Right?

[Al]

Because that becomes a foundational question, that where do you get this idea that somehow the wrath was poured on Jesus? So, Jason, we got three dogs at our compound and two of them are very well mannered, but not real smart. You know, we say God bless them, but one of them has terrible manners, but is very smart with great instincts. Can you relate to that at all?

[Jason]

I can a little bit. But overall, look, I fed my dogs this morning and everybody was happy, happy, happy. I went with the rough grains.

[Al]

And we love dogs. They show up for us every single day. But we know as they get older, they get a little slower, a little pickier, stomachs get a little bit more sensitive. And part of the reason that that happens is because of traditional dog food, it's missing what they need. It's missing probiotics and enzymes, omega oils and. And this is the big one. And live vitamins and minerals that your dog needs to digest and absorb food. And that's where our good friends at Ruffed Greens come in that Jason mentioned. Ruff Greens is America's number one dog supplement. You sprinkle it right on their food. It's packed with all the live nutrients that they need. Plus it's all natural and it's made in the usa. Ruff Greens is helping dogs feel Younger, more energetic and healthier than they have in years. Your dog could be one of them. I've certainly seen it in mind. Their coats are shinier. They seem to be in a better mood all the time and so can your dogs. Get get a free Jump Start trial bag for your dog. You just cover the shipping. Go to rough greens.com use the discount code. Unashamed Rough greens. We make any dog food better.

[Jason]

Exactly. Now, look, we're not saying that he didn't take her place, right? We're not saying that. That if this didn't happen, we wouldn't have forgiveness of sin. We're not saying this shouldn't make us think or take our sin very seriously. As in shame, guilt, conviction, however you

[Al]

want to describe it, my sin helped put him there.

[Jason]

Yeah, exactly. No doubt you contribute. Not, you know, I will contribute. You actively contribute to this happening. But some people read what I'm fixed to read in Deuteronomy 31, and they're putting the word forsaken, which was a quote from Psalm 22. We've gone over that many times. But if you. So Jesus 1 was fulfilling Scripture by saying that. Because it is a strange thing for him to say when you take everything else. He said, he's like, oh, take care of my mom. And he forgave me the people who were crucifying him. He stops what he's doing and saves a thief on the cross. He's doing all this. So it seems like, why is he doing this? But when you read Psalm 22, you're like, oh. Because it's almost like in Psalm 22, it leads to kind of a cry for help of rescued, which happened. He was not abandoned to the grave. You know, Peter would preach in Acts, chapter two. Yeah, you say, well, because what does forsaken mean? It comes down to what that word means. So if you look up in Psalm 22:1 do a little Hebrew lexicon work and they'll tell you it means exiled. Turn your face from allow, you know, separation. So God allows. The Father allows this. And remember, darkness came over the. Over the land. But don't combine that with him being angry, because I'm going to give you just the smoking gun on what I'm trying to say here in Deuteronomy 31. You ready?

[Al]

Ready.

[Jason]

This is going to be fantastic. But I'm going to. Where does he start talking about for sake? Let's look at verse 6, 31. Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified. So he's talking Joshua to succeed Moses

[Al]

that's what I'm saying. Now, this is the setting where Moses is basically passing the torch to Joshua to lead the people.

[Jason]

Thank you. That's what I was looking for. He says, because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you. Now watch this. He will never leave you nor forsake you. Well, we have that word, forsake. Yeah, there's the Hebrew word. He's not going to. So then watch what happens. So Moses summoned Joshua and said to him in the presence of Israel, be strong, creators, for you must go with his people into the land that the Lord swore to our fathers to give them. Because you think, how does this compare? Why am I going here? Because, remember, God's people were exiled, his chosen people, or forsaken, and he's trying to rescue them. So it's kind of the same concept with that word about forsaken.

[Al]

Right.

[Jason]

So then at some point in this, chapter 31, it says in verse 8, the Lord Himself goes before you and will be with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. There it is again. Do not be afraid. So then Moses reads the law, and then where does the forsaking? You're going to have to help me. I'm doing this off the top of my head. He gets in here.

[Al]

Let's see it down to verse 17.

[Jason]

Yeah. And then anger comes up. Where's that at?

[Al]

17.

[Jason]

All right, so let's read 17. On that day, I will. Oh, here we go. Oh, no, we got to read the previous verse. And the Lord said to Moses, you are going to rest with your fathers. And these people will soon prostitute themselves to foreign gods of the land they are entering. Well, we know that's a no. No. What was the number one?

[Al]

Number one? Yeah.

[Jason]

Well, and what happened? You started believing in other gods. They will forsake me. Now, here's this. See this? The reason I'm going here is because I'm defining what forsaken means. Psalm 20:22. And it's all over the place in here. Well, so who did the forsaking here? The people. Because. Why? They served other gods.

[Al]

And they broke the covenant.

[Jason]

And they broke the covenant I made with them. And so. So now listen to this very carefully. Verse 17. On that day. On that day, I will become angry with them. Look. And forsake them. Now, here's the question. There's a difference in being angry and forsaking. Why was he angry? Because they started bowing down to other gods, and they didn't keep the covenant. And as a result, there Was a lot of sins going on. Oh, yeah. Well, here's my point. People read this and they're like, well, see, when God forsook Jesus when he was angry at him, because they're basing it on this. Well, there's a difference in Jesus.

[Al]

Yeah, you got one little flaw there.

[Jason]

Oh, it's a big flaw. There's a big difference between Jesus and. And where forsaken is most commonly used, which is about God and the relationship with Israel. That's where it's most commonly used. I've already looked it up.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jason]

When anger came out, it was because they were the people, broke the covenant, serving other gods and a lot of sinful behavior. Well, here's Jesus. Guess. Guess what? Three things he didn't do. He didn't break. Break the covenant. No. In fact, he predicted that he would die and be buried and raised over and over and over again. And guess what he did? He stuck to it. Out of love. He didn't bow down to other gods.

[Al]

In fact, you remember the exact words when Satan said, if you will bow down to me, we can rule this earth together. And he said, I will worship the Lord, my God only.

[Jason]

Amen. Thank you, Jesus. And look, and there was no sin, Right. He never sinned. So why do you have God being angry at him? You say, why are you so passionate about this? Because you're missing the greatest love act in the history of the world. That is the only reason he did it. And the reason he's mad at these people is still in love. But it's because they're doing something that is contrary to his nature. It makes him mad.

[Al]

So what you're saying, and I'm just connecting the dots here, is if that line of reason is correct, which I will say I believe it is, then when Jesus fulfills this prophecy and the. And the script that was there from David in Psalm 22, he's saying, Only part of all humanity in this moment, God, the forsakenness, now is put on me.

[Jason]

Exactly.

[Al]

Because now I'm taking. I did all the things that people

[Jason]

would do, which is enough.

[Al]

It's enough.

[Jason]

Look, look. And he's angry at us. Fine. I deserve it.

[Al]

I love it.

[Jason]

But when you, when you for some reason funnel it toward Jesus, well, now you're changing the nature of God. Right. So when you read Ephesians 1:4, he predestined us, you know, and he's talking about the Israel nation and the Gentiles would be included. But then he has that key little phrase in love, in Love. This started from a love objective because we're in first John 4 and one John 5, 27 times has love. Atonement's right in the middle of that. So don't. All the things. The things that apply, we agree on. I just picked up that one little point because somebody somewhere read Deuteronomy 31 and got God angry at the son. And I'm like, nope.

[Zach]

I think they're just using the language, though, because it's hard to. Hard to describe it. That's why I probably wouldn't call it heresy, because I think you push down on the language and I think they're not. I mean, I don't know. It gets complicated. It gets.

[Jason]

It does get complicated. And I didn't want to make that the main point, but I do think it's heretical because I think if you start off with an angry God, then it leads to other things as far as him picking and choosing and not loving everybody and. Which I just, I just don't agree with that.

[Zach]

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[Al]

Yeah, Zach, you know, there's no doubt if we had known about netsuite back in the early days of Docommander, it would have saved us so much headaches and troubles and been so much better for our business.

[Zach]

Absolutely. You know, it's. It's a lot easier to make Decisions when you have all the information that you need right in front of you. And now Net Suite allows for a smooth process for people who want to use it. So if your re. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get their free business guide. It's called Demystifying AI at netsuite.com Unashamed. It's free. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com UnaShamed that's NetSuite. What somebody who would hold the position because there's, there's, there are different levels of the, of this. There's one position that is that the Father poured his wrath out on the Son. Then there's a position that he poured his wrath out on sin in the Son. Then there's the position that tries to do away with God's wrath altogether. That one we should definitely stay away from.

[Jason]

Right.

[Zach]

But I, I think that the, When Jesus says, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? You know, when he says that, I mean, he's, he is referencing Psalm 22. And you read the whole Psalm 22, the end of it clearly says that the Father has not turned his face away from him. I'm almost verbatim, like, he, he did not turn. He did not hide his face. And so you have to read the whole psalm in its context. And so what the Son may be. Yeah, he's quoting that psalm. It feels like the Father's abandoned him. It feels like the Father's turned his face away. But he has heard the Son, when he cried, read the whole psalm. He did not turn his face away. And the argument from those on the side that would be against this idea that God poured his wrath out on the Son and he hated the Son. They would say, well, that's impossible because that would be a rupture in the very nature of who God is, that God can't be separated. God was eternally pleased with the Son. He was never at any point displeased with the Son. There was no rupture inside the Trinity.

[Jason]

Well, isn't that what I just said?

[Zach]

Yeah, but if you put. But, but I think even like Calvin, he, he admitted that. He said that there was no rupture in the Trinity by this. And, and I think when you, that's what I'm saying. When you get into the argument with some of these people, like what they'll end up saying, they'll end up really redefining wrath. And, and I mean, then you kind of get to, what are we saying the same thing now? They probably would say no. But I do think that you have to look at this and say that Christ voluntarily, he said, nobody, nobody takes my life, I give it. So whatever happened on the cross, the place I land is that it was an act of. It was a triune act. It wasn't the Father doing something to the Son. It was the Father, Son and Holy Spirit acting together to accomplish this. So at no point in any of it was there any division, because it was. I mean, Jesus voluntarily says, I I give my own life. Nobody takes my life. I give it freely. And so what, what, if any? I would just say the rubric that we should run the atonement through is, does this disrupt the Trinity in any way? And if your understanding of atonement does, then I think you need to get rid of that understanding of atonement. I'm not telling you what your view is wrong or right. I don't know. It gets too nuanced and it gets to. You get in all these discussions. I just know that God's never divided. And so whatever happened on the cross was an act of divine quality and economy. That God in his triune nature accomplishes this and it's finished. And I think that's truthful. I think it's biblical, and I think it gives us a high, high, high view of not only the Father, but it gives us a very high view of the Son because he was participating. That's why it's not cosmic child abuse, because the Son's participating voluntarily in this.

[Jason]

So there's your theological version of what I said, I think, but I'll let you know.

[Al]

I agree, but I like the way you tied it in the Deuteronomy passage, because. And that comes obviously before Psalms and when David writes what he writes, because it is representative. When Jesus came here, he became a human being. And when he did so, when he's on that cross, he's representing humanity as well as representing the Son of God. He's the Son of Man and the Son of God. And so I love the idea that what I didn't realize until you went through your diatribe here, Jace, was that now I believe he's saying in fulfillment of all the moments up until now when all the people have turned their backs because, look, they were taken away into captivity on two different occasions after Egypt. So they just kept going back to the same pattern. He says, all that is now taken care of by me.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Al]

And that's the beauty of it, which I think that's what ties it into first John so well, and he says, all this is the picture of ultimate love, that I would do that for you. First, that I would come become a human being, that I would send my son, the one and only son. But second, that that one and only son would give his life for all of us to be represented. And now we live how? Through him, our representative, our advocate. So it makes perfect sense to me. Well, and it does align with everything he said else on the cross, by the way, it fits in line then with a love speech, not a hate speech.

[Jason]

That was, that was my point. Because I think if love is the root of it, you look at all the facets of what he accomplished, it's more than just him specializing in the forgiveness of sins. There's more that went on there. He's also defeating the contributing supernatural powers. When you go back to the garden, yes, there were two sinful acts by a couple individually, but there was also an evil force there that was contributing to that. We just read in 1 John 3:10, Jesus came to destroy the power and the work of the devil. Right. Well, how do you do that? Well, he starts talking about love. You're like, why is he talking about love? And he's talking about atonement, but he's also talking about what we become in this world, which that goes into Second Corinthians 5, where it says God made him who had no sin to be sin for us so that we may embody the righteousness or faithfulness of God. So that's where I was going. There's multiple facets that happen on the cross and in the resurrection. And I think if you start off with a loving God, all of those things come out. When you kind of get focused on one little aspect, it tends to.

[Al]

Well, I'll give you an illustration of it from my perspective. And I mention this a lot when I'm sharing with the audiences. When I mentioned that my dad, our dad, when he, he became angry at me when the lifestyle that I was living was against the covenant of our family, I mean, there's no doubt about it, I did it. I made the choices that put me in a position and it upset him. And so when he came to me and he said we had a heart to heart, and it was like, al, I love you, your mama loves you. And what you've got to do is you've got to change from this and leave that. You got to leave these friends, you got, you got to leave this lifestyle and you got to do what's right now in the moment. Because I wasn't doing right. I took that as I was being forsaken and shunned, you know, by him. He didn't love me or he wouldn't have said that to me. But I was 180 degrees wrong. The only reason he had that conversation is because he did love me and he wanted me to do the right thing. I was the one that made the choice. So when I leave, go out there like the lost prodigal in Luke 15. When I came back, guess who was right there waiting. Not with hate, not with forsakenness, not with separation, but welcome home, son. The same dad. Why? Because his love for me never stopped. It was me that made the choice to be forsaken.

[Zach]

And I think when you think about, this is one location thing I've really had wrestled with on this atonement argument, that there is a level of wrath that is just like, I would say, like rage. And I think it comes from God. And, and, and I, I think it's like this. And I think it comes from love, though. If somebody hurts my family in a very horrible way like that, I, it would, I mean, it would just come out. My love for them would come out in rage. And so a lot of the discussion around. Yeah, so there is like, there is like, God is really mad at us because it's a luxury when we say that he's not. It's a luxury when we say that God's wrath is simply his passive wrath, which would be like the Romans passage where God turns you over to yourself. God's wrath is to give you over to yourself. That, that is a big facet of his wrath. But, but there's also like real anger that you think about. Like when, when societies, like, think about the real evil in the world, like the most heinous evil you could think of.

[Jason]

Well, how about Jeremiah 19? The Baal worshipers were sacrificing kids into

[Al]

throwing them in the fire.

[Jason]

And archeologists have found these grave sites where there's little jars given to BAAL and it's all these little, little babies. I mean, to me that's pretty.

[Al]

But I'll say this. I did a study one time because we're out of time, but I did a study one time about anger because I was making the point that because a lot of times we think anger is a sin, but it's not a sin. Anger can lead you to sin. And I did this study. It's over 600 times in the Bible mentions anger. 85% of the 600 times God is the one who's angry.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Al]

85% of the times mentioned in the entire Bible. And that's just stat off the diagram, but for him.

[Jason]

Well, and let me just say this. I know we're out of time, but I think Fox News has been listening to our podcast because I had about five people.

[Al]

Somebody is.

[Jason]

Because they quoted us on me to me and they. I saw this where you said rednecks were the only unoffendable people left on the planet. I was like, where'd you see this? They're like, fox News.

[Al]

Fox News Digital.

[Jason]

So I said it at.

[Al]

You got a listener at Fox News Digital.

[Jason]

Yeah, somebody did that. But I want to give you a caveat now that you've made a big thing out of that. Because I was like, we don't care.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Because if you.

[Al]

I mean, when you said it.

[Jason]

Yeah. When you try to offend, what is offended? Nothing.

[Al]

Nothing.

[Jason]

Who cares? So you can talk about us and offend us. But I will say this. As my dad once said, if you talk about our wife or our dogs or mess with our kids, we're not gonna be offended. We're just gonna whip your butt.

[Al]

There you go.

[Jason]

Yeah, we're not offended about it, but sometimes you.

[Al]

You just need a butt whoop. Sometimes. Sometimes there is a line when you hear that.

[Zach]

There's that. I read an article a few years ago, a guy walked in on this kid getting abused, and I think he killed the. The guy. And everybody was like, yeah. Nobody was like, oh, he shouldn't have done that. Everybody's like, I hope he gets off scot free. Like, like every. Like everybody that heard that story is like, that's justifiable. That level of anger flows from love. And I think that that's a. I think the same thing is true with God. And so, you know, we're out of time here. We could probably.

[Al]

We're way out of time.

[Jason]

But I just wanted to say, you know, words will never hurt me. Sticks and stones and all that.

[Al]

But don't talk about his dogs, his kids, or his truck.

[Zach]

Don't talk about his dogs.

[Jason]

Don't do it.

[Al]

All right, we'll see you next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.