Ep 1306 | Living With Conviction Without Cutting Yourself Off From the World

Summary

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Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Ep 1306 | Living With Conviction Without Cutting Yourself Off From the World

April 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Robertson family dives into the tension between living faithfully as Christians and engaging with the wider (often secular) culture—a concept they root in the biblical teaching to be "in the world, but not of the world." Using everything from coffee preferences to the origins of the word "Easter," the hosts tie everyday interactions and familiar holidays back to questions of theological importance and Christian witness. The discussion is laced with wit, real-life stories, scriptural exegesis (particularly from 1 John and John 6), and the family's trademark down-home humor.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

Coffee, Culture, and Conscience (00:36-05:32)

• Opening Banter: The hosts joke about their coffee preferences and how it powers their podcast conversations.
  • Notably, they use this as a segue into discussing how personal convictions (even about brands with which you might have moral disagreements) play out in daily life.
  • Quote: "I can drink their coffee and still disagree with their politics." — Al (04:52)
• Engagement vs. Isolation: Jase and Al use the coffee anecdote to make a point:
  • "If you base decisions in the workplace on that, we'd probably all live in a cave..." — Jase (05:09)
  • Key principle: Christians navigate real-world tensions, balancing conviction and engagement.

Easter, Language, and Church Tradition (06:45-17:09)

• Debate Over the Word "Easter": The family discusses a listener email (from "Tanner") about the origins of Easter and whether Christians should use the term (and how much meaning is attached to it).
• Apologist Wes Huff & Pascha:
  • Easter is called "Pascha" (Passover) in Greek-derived languages; connections to the goddess Ishtar are likely "association fallacies."
  • Quote: "Comparing the Christian celebration and the pagan goddess would be about like comparing Steven Seagal: Hard to Kill and the beach seagull." — Paraphrased from Tanner via Al (14:49)
• Easter Bunny & Eggs: The family traces their origins, revealing most ties to paganism are historically unsupported.
• Main Takeaway: The significance isn't in the terminology ("Easter" vs. "Resurrection Sunday") but in focusing on the Resurrection.
  • Quote: "If we're going to have a celebration about the resurrection, why don't we call it something that we don't have to have Tainer go do some research with an apologist and figure out that it's not actually something paganic..." — Jase (25:09)

Personal Ministry & Testimonies (17:35-25:35)

• Witnessing to the Younger Generation: Jase recounts speaking at an FCA event, making connections with students and reflecting on conversions both young and old.
  • He shares an impactful testimony of an older couple who discovered what Christianity is really about after many years in church.
  • Quote: "...I finally figured out what the Bible is about Jesus and how the Holy Spirit works on this planet through people who are following Jesus." — Al, relaying a message from the couple (22:03)

Words, Categories, and The Meaning We Attach (26:15-31:29)

• Debate on the Term "Bible":
  • The hosts dissect the origins and accuracy of words like "Bible," their use as linguistic categories, and how theological shorthand (like "Trinity" or "Scripture") assists communication.
  • Quote: "Trinity...the word Trinity is not in the Bible, but the Bible clearly, you know, presents a framework..." — Zach (29:27)

The New World: Life, Light, Love (31:42-54:02)

• In-depth Bible Study: Jase leads a study connecting 1 John, John 6, and Genesis:
  • Theme: Jesus introduces a new "world," where the focus is on eternal life.
  • Key Points:
    • 1 John focuses on "life, light, love."
    • You must have life in order to love and walk in the light.
    • Jesus, like the tree of life, offers eternal life to those who believe.
    • Quote: "He's in a world where he's introducing a new mode of being." — Jase (33:02)
  • Reframing Death & Resurrection: Death entered through separation from the "tree of life"; Christ restores access to life.
  • John 6 Discussion: When Jesus talks about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he is offering the true path to eternal life, symbolically restoring what was lost in Eden.
    • Quote: "I'm a gift from God for eternal life. Like the Tree of Life, this is all about death and overcoming it." — Jase (48:37)
  • The Living One: Referencing Revelation 1, Jesus as "the living one" holds the keys to death and Hades—restoring what was lost.

Notable Theological Reflections

• Physical vs. Spiritual Death: The hosts challenge the idea that passages like Romans 5 and John 6 only address spiritual death, proposing these texts have a more robust, literal dimension in light of resurrection hope.
• Paradise and the Tree of Life: The thief on the cross is promised "paradise" (a return to the garden/tree of life)—tying together Genesis, the Gospels, and Revelation for a holistic biblical narrative about eternal life.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Cultural Engagement:
  "You got to be in the world, but not out [of] the world. And when it comes to coffee, sometimes you gotta get out there." — Zach (05:26)
• On Easter's Etymology:
  “The name Easter, most scholars believe, came from... in German speaking areas, this was the fourth month of the year...the name was shortened to the beginning of the word Easter month.” — Jase (15:14)
• On Ministry Impact:
  “I was just so shell shocked by that letter that I just felt like I had to share...I finally figured out what the Bible is about Jesus and how the Holy Spirit works on this planet through people who are following Jesus.” — Jase (24:45, quoting the testimony)
• On Theological Categories:
  “Her point was that, like, we do use language to shorthand bigger things...you may use a term or phrase that the actual... word is not in there. But we would use that term as shorthand to explain a doctrine that is found in the scripture.” — Zach (29:27)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:36 — Coffee banter opens to discussion on navigating convictions in culture
• 05:26 — “Be in the world, but not of the world”—transition into 1 John study
• 09:43 — Listener email (Tanner) launches word origins debate
• 13:27 — Introduction of apologist Wes Huff and debate over “Easter”
• 17:35 — Jase shares ministry experience at FCA and testimony of an older couple’s faith awakening
• 25:09 — Reframing the debate on naming holidays
• 29:27 — Melissa's powder analogy: why shorthand and categorization matter in theology
• 33:02 — Study on 1 John: Jesus unveils a new “world” and mode of being
• 41:00 — Connecting Eden, the tree of life, and the entrance of death
• 48:37 — John 6 and the “eating” passages: Christ as access to eternal life
• 54:02 — Revelation 1, Jesus as “the Living One,” and tie-in to the tree of life in paradise
• 56:19 — Tease for next episode: further theological reflections on these themes

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Conclusion & Tone

Staying true to their Louisiana roots, the Robertson family mix scriptural depth with accessible storytelling. This episode is as much about serious theological reflection as it is about community, humor, and the real messiness of living faithfully. The core message resonates: Christians are called to live with conviction, rooted in resurrection hope, without withdrawing from the world’s daily challenges and opportunities.

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For listeners:

• This episode will deepen your understanding of Christian engagement with culture, the theology of life and resurrection, and the significant—yet secondary—role of religious categories and terms.
• Expect a lively, relatable, and often humorous road trip through Scripture, tradition, and the quirks of everyday faith.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Welcome back to Unashamed. We were talking coffee this morning, Zach, when we got in because we have been out of our normal coffee for a minute and so Maddie has been trying to track us some down.

[A]

It's been weeks. It's been a minute.

[B]

And you guys got to know Unashamed Nation has to know that. Jason, I getting regular amounts of coffee is very important to the success of this podcast continuing.

[A]

I was explaining to Maddie that I tend to be laid back so I need coffee coupled with the holy spirit to seem like I'm, like I'm not uninterested in the conversation.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So get that.

[B]

And mine is more due more to lack of sleep because I've been so busy. But I've got to where I just enjoy it all day. And so we hadn't had a regular coffee and so Jason I at this had the epiphany. Apparently this morning Jace goes and gets some coffee and brings it. I go to a place that sells the coffee that we drink here and got some as well.

[C]

Don't name it.

[B]

I'm not named the coffee. I'm not. I'm not. Because we may get a coffee deal. Zach's always wanting coffee.

[A]

I'm not going to mention the coffee. We, we, we drink it black.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Strong.

[B]

We could leave it black and strong. There you go. That's what we like.

[C]

There are a couple, there's a couple brands that are better than others. There's one brand that is a go to. I won't say the name of it, but if you in Louisiana, you know what it is and it really is to me heads and shoulders above everything else.

[A]

It's like the joke when the guy was asked how did he want his eggs? The question was, how would you like your eggs? And he said, I really like them a lot.

[B]

That's like the joke, that's like the joke with the state trooper pulls you over and he says, I need you got any id and he says, about what? So, so we had, so we all had this giving mindset this morning. Maddie's got it coming, but we brought some today, so we're caffeinated. We're good. It reminded me I was just an event.

[C]

Y' all brought your own coffee.

[B]

Yeah, we brought, we paid for it. Zach, by the way, let me, let

[C]

me, let me make an announcement right here. Official announcement on the Unshamed podcast. I will not say the brand, but you guys are on a coffee subscription because I paid for it and it should be coming any day now.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

That way. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, thank you.

[C]

Because I've heard your complaints. I've heard the complaints reached.

[B]

They reached that they've reached me.

[A]

This would have been a good announcement. Two and a half months.

[B]

I wish, I wish I'd started this conversation a while back. So we were going to this event and we had just enough time to go by and visit the pregnancy center. We were speaking in North Carolina, by the way. We were in Elizabeth City, which is, I think, I think it's in the southeast corner of North Carolina because we flew into Virginia to go there. But we had just enough time. But we were like, I, I told the lady, I was like, look, our performance tonight at your event is very, it's hinging on the fact that we find some coffee right now. Because it was 5:30, we had to drive to the event. So we, we were a little bit sleepy. At least not where we like, we got it. Like you, Jace, we need Holy Spirit. But we needed something in addition with that. And so she gave me a couple of local places. And so, but when I'm on the road, I'm just going to tell you, I know we don't mention brands a lot here, but I prefer drinking Starbucks on the road because it's consistent. I know what I'm getting. If I go to a local place, I'm not sure. And I'm not against supporting local businesses, but I've been to places before and it just didn't do it for me. But I know what I want there. And so she doesn't mention that. So I told Lisa, I said, where we're going, we're going to go try this place. And Lisa said, well, you think they have a Starbucks here? And I said, well, I don't know. It's kind of a small town. Probably not or she would have mentioned it. Well, there was one. And it was right on our way to the event. So we stopped there, got our coffee and headed over there. And so I asked the lady later, I said, you mentioned Starbucks. She said, I don't like their politics. And I said, well, I don't either, but I love their coffee. And so I said, I've just made a decision. I can drink their coffee and still disagree with their politics. So that's kind of. I mean, I had to. You know, I had to. Since we had that conversation, I sympathize.

[A]

Because if you base decisions in the workplace on that, we'd probably all live in a cave and have a. Well, I was going to mention a group of people, but have a simplistic feel to our. To our nature.

[C]

You got to be in the world, but not out the world. And when it comes to coffee, sometimes you gotta. You gotta get out there.

[A]

That thought, what you just said triggered a complete. What is the word I'm looking for? Reorganization of my thoughts about what we're studying. You got to be in the world, but not of the world, because the

[B]

world is a big theme in First John. Right.

[A]

It's a big theme. And where we're headed, something hit me. And this all came from this. I mean, I was making a funny. I've tried to tell all our listeners many times, if I'm not reading scripture or blowing duck calls, don't take me too seriously. All right? This is.

[B]

This, by the way, after 30 years of marriage, this is the message we're still trying to get across to Missy.

[A]

Just don't tell me she's got it. She's got it. That reminds me of that song. She's got it. Yeah, baby. She's got it. She got it. So, yeah, so we. We went in. I mean, I tried to be the first human to baptize the Easter Bunny. I tried to baptize the Easter Bunny with its assortment of eggs.

[B]

And we were talking about.

[A]

We were.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

You went back to your roots with that pronunciation. There's baptized and there's babatize.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That's a difference.

[A]

Well, because I thought it was.

[B]

You know, I'm like, zach, he's gonna be saying, repent ye, every one of ye. So be baptized ye.

[A]

So I thought it would be exciting if we actually have this celebration every year to focus on the resurrection. That's where this all.

[B]

So Jace is referring to those, you know, that are keeping up with us. The Eager Sunday.

[C]

Eager Bunny.

[B]

The Eager Sunday.

[A]

We're actually recording this before the eager. Right.

[B]

Well, it's gonna release after.

[A]

But that's what I'm trying to explain to you. Yeah, but we. You sent me an email.

[B]

So Tanner, or Jay said Tanner, because it's only one end.

[A]

Now, wait a minute. The spelling is T A, N, E, R. You don't know this guy, right?

[B]

I do not know him. He is a listener.

[A]

His name is Tanner.

[B]

Look, you know, it's Tanner with one n. Isn't.

[A]

There's no way.

[B]

His name is impossible. So Tanner, when you. If I'm right, please send me another email.

[A]

Let me just say this. Look, if. What does a lion have? What's one of the features of a lion? It has a mane. A mane?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. There's a big difference in a mane and the manner you say Tanner Manor.

[B]

But you're missing one little crucial thing. People spell their names. People's parents spell their names differently when they bring him into the world. And so for whatever reason, I say his name is Tanner with one n. J says Tanner. So we're going to.

[A]

Well, it is Tainer until proven otherwise. Because every other word. If you have a plane.

[B]

Now, Zach, who's the one on the pronunciation and the names now, right here,

[A]

if you go up there, I'm doing this off the top of my head, and you're like, oh, it's a plane. And then you're like, I need a. I need a wedding planner. There, there. We're. We're not even actually.

[B]

In that case, you're right, because there is such a thing called a planer as well. Which Planes. Woods. Which is.

[C]

How is it spelled again?

[B]

T A, N, E, R. But anyway,

[A]

get to what he said.

[B]

So he sent me a note because Jason done the. The rabbit hole and sort of debunking of Easter because it was after a fertility goddess or something.

[A]

Well, but I did off the top of my head. There was no preparation. I AI'd it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can we use that as a verb?

[B]

Is that say AI?

[C]

I think we can go with it.

[A]

Never mind. Well, too unsure. What.

[C]

I just AI the name. And it is. I think Al's right. I think it's tan er. You leave off this. The second in emphasis not.

[B]

I'm sure I'm right.

[A]

I have to look your name up via a. I'm not playing that game, Tanner.

[B]

I'm so sorry. But anyway, so Tanner sent me. Sent me a note and he had done. About a year ago, he had started. He was curious about Easter and the word. So he had done pretty deep diving. So he sent me all of his research and he was. In the email, he was trying to tell me, look, I'm not going after Jace or defending Easter, but here's what I found.

[A]

Yeah, I noticed that's why you embraced it. Because he was really.

[B]

He was humble about it. He was just saying this, respectful and nice.

[A]

And at the end, he agreed that it should be about the resurrection.

[B]

Yeah. And he liked Eager Sunday.

[A]

But he's like, but since you asked, which we really didn't ask you, Tanner, but are you going to give the details of what he said?

[B]

Well, I don't have the email in front of me.

[A]

Well, I can. Boy, you're depending.

[B]

Well, I didn't know you were going here. I just sent it to you. So, you know, this man's research, which I.

[A]

Well, this caused a future epiphany I've yet to give.

[B]

All right. One of the things we really enjoyed was fresh fish and still do. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, we have our new sponsor, Wild Alaskan Company. And it's close to my heart because I commercial fish for years.

[B]

Exactly. So whenever my box showed up, Jase, the first time inside was sockeye salmon, coho salmon, Pacific halibut, Pacific cod, Pacific rockfish. You know, it's hard for me to pick a favorite, but I would say mine was probably the codfish, the Pacific cod. And we just smoked it on the grill and ate it. Smoked and it was so, so good. I'm telling you, we know our fish. We're excited to have these guys as a sponsor because their fish is delicious. It's 100% wild caught. It's not farmed just like the fish that we took from the river. So there's no antibiotics, GMOs, additives, just clean. Real fish shipments are flexible, and Wild Alaskan is delivered right to your door in perfectly portioned 6 oz. Packages. If you're not much of a cook, they give you expert tips. It's full of nutrients. It tastes great because it's frozen right off the boat. The fish in combo box varies each month because they only fish for species that are abundant. So we love that they want to protect wildlife and that they have sustainability as one of their main priorities. So if you're not completely satisfied with your first box, Wild Alaskan Company, we give you a full refund, no questions asked, no risk, just high quality seafood. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com unashamed for $35 off your first box, a premium wild caught seafood. That's wild alaskan.com Unashamed for $35 off your first order. So. So, Tanner, you have now engaged Jace into a new epiphany and a new rabbit over.

[A]

Okay, so.

[B]

But I'm glad you're doing this because I've still got to preach Eager Sunday. This Sunday. So I'm. I'm taking that.

[A]

So he brings up. I'm going to paraphrase some of this because it's a little longer than I thought, but he brings up one of his favorite apologists. That's in your world, Zach. You and. Okay, you know, your buddy had on the other day, Wes Huff.

[B]

Do you know. Have you heard of. Ever heard of Wes Huff, Zach?

[C]

I hadn't heard of West Huff until about a year ago when he blew up and showed up on the scene. I guess he'd been around a while. He's a Canadian guy.

[A]

Was like, a year's a long time.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, I've heard. I mean,

[C]

I swim in those waters a lot. That I just hadn't come across him. That somehow he got connected on the Joe Rogan podcast and then just blew up. And now he is, like, going into all these very popular. I would call them secular podcasts and really holding his own. He does a great job. We are to have him on this podcast.

[B]

Yeah, let's get him on here.

[A]

Okay. So he brings him up and he says, easter, the name. So he's getting this from a guy named Wes Huff, who is an apologist. Easter is the name only. Is only a reality in Germanic. Germanic languages. If you look at languages with Greek origins, you will see Easter being called Pascha. Pascha, which is actually derived from the Jewish term Passover.

[B]

Passover.

[A]

As for it having a connection to the ancient goddess Ishtar, which is what you mentioned, is what is strongly considered an association fallacy. Basically, someone decided they were the same because they sound the same. So it sounds like to me, Wes and Tanner, they didn't like the answer of that either, because it's like we're about Jesus and the Resurrection. So it seems like they found some kind of German word to make this work. And I'm not making fun of it. It may be true. I have no idea. So then he put comparing the Christian celebration and the pagan goddess would be about like comparing Stephen Stagal Hard to kill and the beach seagull. Oh, I see.

[B]

Yeah, he's saying they sound alike.

[A]

Well, he's kind of piling that on here. Hey, I read it off AI Tainer. So, look, the name Easter, most scholars believe came from you Ready for this? In German speaking areas, this was the fourth month of the year. Resurrection Sunday almost always fell during Eoster Moneth. So the name was shortened to the beginning of the word Easter month. Oh, yester month. Yeah, I see. Oh, Easter month.

[B]

Look at Jay's learning on set.

[A]

It would be like the fourth of July or Cinco de Mayo. Less to do with the month and more to do with the thing they're celebrating. I don't know, this is a hard sell for me. But anyway, as for the Easter bunny, the first instance of an Easter Bunny bunny happened in 1572, nearly 500 years after paganism had any form foothold in Europe. In 19th century, a guy named Jacob Ludwig Carl Grimm. He's got four names. Wow. Suggested that there might be a connection to the fertility of bunnies, to ancient theme in paganism, fertility cults. He had no evidence of. This is in parentheses. There really is no evidence of the bunny being tied to any pagan groups. Did we say the bunny was tied to pagans?

[B]

No, he's just bringing it up.

[A]

Oh, he's just bringing it up. So then you guys touched on Easter eggs a bit. The largely accepted idea is what you guys touched on. In the end of the 13th century, King Edward first decorated a hundred hundreds of hard boiled eggs with golden leaves to be handed out to his family and friends during the Easter season, which I like.

[B]

It made sense that he mentioned. I do remember him mentioning that during Lent, which would have been a big deal, they needed something that was preservable and boiled eggs would have done that. So that. That made sense to me.

[A]

Hit. That was his last paragraph. Then he says, now I say all this. The more you know, the better. However, I'm totally on board with Jason idea to change the name to Eager. So we have our first convert.

[B]

First convert Jace.

[A]

Confirmation. Well, and I did an event. The day after that podcast, I did an event.

[B]

Did you get a big round of applause on Eager Sunday?

[A]

Well, how. No.

[B]

That means no. But

[A]

I mean, it's like when I got home from the event, Missy said, how'd it go? And I was like, oh, it was rocking. She's like, really? I was like, well, no, not really. But for Oak Grove, it was rocking. Oh, I mean our oak Grove. Our Oak Grove. Yeah. And I did it for the kids.

[B]

But I've always found it's a little more difficult for me, Jace, for whatever reason, within like a hour radius of right here, to get crowds as excited as they are when I go someplace.

[A]

The excitement level is not big. And But I will say this. You know, it's kind of one of those things. You know, I met a guy at a poker game years ago and looked up one day and never saw him again. And when I did see him, it was not in a card setting. He had given his life to Jesus. And. And so he is one of the leaders of these. What they call. Is it fcs?

[B]

Yeah. Fellowship Christian students.

[A]

Yeah. And so that's what this.

[C]

Fca.

[B]

Well, they have FCS and fca.

[A]

Oh, no, I think this was fca.

[B]

A is the sport.

[A]

This is athletes. Yeah, this is athletes.

[B]

That's the bigger organization.

[A]

Yeah. Good. Good catch.

[B]

You know, Zach, that was brought. You know, that was founded by the same guy that did the Campus Crusades, and that was all part of that. Out of that era. Was it Bill Bright was his name, I think. Anyway.

[A]

So anyway. And I've done one of these events before because I think it's cool that I knew this guy, like BJ before Jesus. And now I'm like, we're working together here, you know, it's awesome. And I love kids. I love teenage. And I'm saying kids. They're from like 10 to 20, whatever. I'd say probably 18, but in our year of holding people back in school, I'm gonna say 10 to 20. Yeah. And so I go. Because he just said, well, what are you. What are you going? What will you charge? I was like, I'm not charging anything. Let's go. Yeah. And so I was thinking it would just be a few people, but it was a pretty big crowd. But there was about, I don't know, 60, 70 of these kids. I get to the event. Well, these kids were up there before I was out. I mean, I came in the back door. I didn't even know who was out there, but it was eerily quiet. I was like, are they doing something out there? And they're like, oh, yeah, the event's going on. I was like, sure is quiet here. They're like, you're in Oak Grove. So then I realized, okay, it's not going to be hollering, hooping and hollering. So these kids came by. They had me a little green room, and I said, hey, what are y' all doing? Well, it was the last two girls. And they were kind of grinning, you know, because they knew who I was, and I was speaking. They're like, well, we're done with our part. I was like, where are you headed? They're like, well, we're going outside, then we're going to circle back and come in, hear you speak. I was like, well, let's go outside. I'll go outside with the group and we'll hang out and take a picture. They were like, really? So we did. So we went out. I went outside with them. I had like, 15 minutes because I thought, this is the reason I'm here. And so they're like, well, let's take a picture. But I mean, I looked and I was like, this is kind of a crappy backdrop here, you know? Well, I looked out there, and producer Jay says there was this beautiful oak tree. Just looked majestic.

[B]

And you're in a place called Oak Grove.

[A]

Oak Grove, yeah. Let's get that in the backdrop. And they're like, oh, Cook, great idea. You know, and, you know, we just talked about it.

[B]

Scorsese Lives made it.

[A]

We talked about Jesus, and it's fantastic. And so. But in the crowd when I gave my speech, you know, it was a withering barrage with no notes. But I brought up the eager, because we're here. We are just days out. There was a lot of dazed and confused look. But I tell you this whole story. To say the moment I had with those kids was special because they really seemed excited about Jesus. Yeah. I mean, not just, like, putting on a face. They really seemed excited. And that excites me because I remember when I was 14, I asked how many of them were 14? And there was about seven or eight of them. And I was like, I was your age when I gave my life to Jesus. And it's just they're looking like, really like. And look now going all over the world. I was trying to pass that on. Here's why I brought this up. And this goes in with this email. So I get a letter from a text. Like, he took a picture of the text. The guy who invited me, the buddy I met playing cards, set the example that was a contributing factor to him coming to Jesus.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He sent me a text of an older couple that was in the crowd. I won't mention the religious persuasion that we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. What I was shocked at is this was an older couple. And he was like, I've been going part of this church for 30, 40 years. And then what was said, it was long. He's like, I finally figured out what the Bible is about Jesus and how the Holy Spirit works on this planet through people who are following Jesus. It was something to that effect.

[B]

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[A]

I was like, what have they been talking to you about? It was just so fascinating to me that I was with some young people. They were all like, hooray for Jesus. And then like two of the parents,

[B]

I guess, or grandparents maybe, they're like,

[A]

they hear a message and they're like, I finally figured it out. I'm giving my life to Jesus. I was just so shell shocked by that letter that I just felt like I had to, had to share. But that, that was. I was going to tie that into this, this whole paragraph, but. Easter? Look, I don't care about the word Easter, right? All this was interesting, but my whole point was, if we're going to have a celebration about the resurrection, why don't we call it something that we don't have to have? Tainer, go do some research with an apologist and figure out that it's not actually something paganic or, you know, what I mean, I could care less about that word, and I don't think I'm going to use it again unless I'm doing it saying, don't use it.

[B]

Well, Resurrection Sunday. You like? You like that?

[A]

I love it. Yeah.

[B]

But actually, like we've said, that's every Sunday because we celebrate it. Which is what I'm excited about, Jason, because I'm working on this sermon for Sunday. So much of what we've been talking about, and it all came out of the first John, 3, 2.

[A]

Well, now I got some more firepower. All right, I want to hear that, because this. And Zach, to your point with, you had a fellow apologist on the podcast when we did the book about not going to say it again, the E Word. But eager day. And something came up in between us doing the podcast. We were having an argument about something

[B]

which happens quite frequently, and one of

[A]

the apologists, either Zach or what was her name? I keep.

[C]

Melissa.

[A]

Melissa. Melissa. That was on the podcast.

[B]

Melissa from New Mexico.

[A]

I made an argument, and in my argument, I used the word bauble. And she's like, that's not in the Bible. The word Bible, because. Oh, I know what the argument. Remember I said, you apologist. What annoys me is you make everything in a category. You know, I was like, instead of just reading the Bible for what it is, and she's like, well, you just made a category, the Bible. So I was like, what is she talking about? But what she doesn't know, and y' all didn't. Well, then I went back and I looked up. I was like, is the word Bible not in the Bible? Did you know?

[B]

I mean, Scripture's in there, but the

[A]

word Bible is not in the Bible. Right. Zach's being quiet, but I'm trying to

[C]

figure out where you're going with this.

[A]

I thought, well, I'm going with. We call this the Bible. That word, the Greek word for Bible, biblia. It's not in the Bible, right? Yeah, it's not. They didn't get it from these scriptures. All scriptures. God breathed. Well, that particular word was never uttered through the breath. So we did that. You look up the history, and I'm not opposed to it. I'm just saying it's confusing to people. We call it the Bible. So the Greek word biblia means books. So you're like, oh, well, that makes sense. These are books. Are they? Some of them are sermons, some of

[B]

them are letters, Some are born, some

[A]

of them are letters. You see what I'm. See where I'm going with this. And so you're like, well, where did this come from? This Pope of Rome in 100 to whatever, 202nd century, he come up with it because there's a port named Biblia, and that's where they got the Egyptian papyrus, which is paper. They're paper. Right. Well, this has nothing to do, you know, but my whole point is if you said, no, I don't like the word Bible, well, people would just, oh, what have you said, you know, you don't like the Bible? Well, now that I researched it, I don't like that we call it the Bible. I think we could come up with a better name, however. Does that mean anything? No, I'm just saying.

[B]

But some people do call it scripture, which is certainly there.

[A]

Well, I think I mainly call it Scripture or Hebrew Scriptures.

[B]

Holy Scriptures.

[A]

Yeah. I just want to know what you thought about that.

[B]

Well, I mean, her point was it is a categorization, and it was in the second century. Just because it was the books of scripture, I guess would be their definition. Whoever came up with that.

[A]

Clement.

[B]

Clement. There you go. We're studying Clement. Zach on there?

[A]

Well, he came up with the Bible.

[B]

Hillsdale. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Zach's eerily silent.

[C]

Well, because I remember the conversation that people didn't get to listen to, that part of the conversation that we were having with Melissa. And what she did was pretty brilliant. She pulled out her powder, her makeup powder, and she started to powder her face. I didn't. And I didn't know what she was doing at first. And she's explaining what she has in her hand, and she gives this, like, very long, probably 60 second explanation of what it was. She named the chemical compound. She named everything about it, what it does, and it was like, just off the cuff. And then she said. Or you just could say makeup powder. And her point was that, like, we do use language to shorthand bigger things. You can't. Like that was her point. So we. A lot of times we use these terminologies. They're just really short shorthand for communication. So, you know, you may use a. A term or a phrase that the actual, like Trinity. The. The word Trinity is not in the Bible. Yeah, but the Bible clearly, you know, presents a framework for a God who is triune, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, who is. Is one in being, three persons, one being. That is the clear teaching of the scripture. But the actual word is not in there. But we would use that term as shorthand to explain a doctrine that is found in the scripture.

[A]

Good explanation. Very good. There you go. See the fact that you're acknowledging that. My whole point for that is since I was. I read that about, you know, the. What was the guy's name? Wes Huff. And I thought, that's interesting. But still to my point, and which

[B]

is because you do, Jace, you do a lot of research on words all the time. So do I. Greek words, I mean, like to figure out what they mean because sometimes the translators miss it, which we fully acknowledge. The niv, which is what Jason and I grew up studying, has missed it on a lot of different words because they're not consistent always throughout their text.

[A]

Well, here's what this whole eager thing did. What it did was it made me look all the places where that's mentioned, and we did those. Maybe not last podcast. Podcast before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I just thought about First John and I wanted to give an overview and see what you thought. You know, he starts off talking about life. This here's Jesus. And when he said, we're in the world, not of the world, because where we're at in 1 John 4, he's kind of focusing on love. He mentioned it. What did we say? Two dozen. Over two dozen verses.

[B]

27 times. 27 times in 15 verses.

[A]

And so you kind of keep seeing these three L's come up. Life, light, love. However, what the epiphany was I had was you could be willing to love and be willing to walk in the light, but if you're dead, does it really matter? Yeah. So he bookends this in First John with a focus on acknowledging that Jesus came in the flesh. So, but I think something you could do to help kind of wrap your head around what I want to get into is every time Jesus is talking, I think you got to realize, like in the Gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, he's introducing a new world. He's in a world where he's introducing a new mode of being.

[B]

And you could even replace that with, he's in a kingdom, but he's introducing a new kingdom. Same concept.

[A]

Exactly. Because I think it will help you understand, wrapping your head around some of these things. Because one of the things that I realized is maybe a little unclear, but it's revolving around the resurrection and life and some of the statements Jesus said. Because he starts off in First John when he's like, the life appeared we proclaim concerning the word of life. Why does he keep saying life? Why does that seem to be the most important emphasis of this? Because if you're dead, what are you? So when he comes down and we're talking about this love aspect, which we'll get into the details. But isn't it surprising how many times is world mentioned in chapter four? Let's see. First John 4, 3. There it is. Then it's four times in verse four and five. So that's five. Then it's mentioned in verse nine. So what are you up to? Six, six times. Let's see, is there any more? Oh, here we 17. So that's seven, seven times. And then another three in chapter five, verse three, four and five.

[B]

So they're up to 10.

[A]

So we got 10 times. And if you go back to 1 John 2, he mentioned that 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 times in verse 15 through 17. I think that's got them all covered. So that's why I said that I did. Just think of it. I'm like, he's introducing a new world.

[C]

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[A]

Oh, I love it. I mean, I'm back to playing golf again.

[B]

Jason's right. Head to the golf course. Yeah.

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[B]

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[C]

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[A]

when you go to something like John chapter six. And this is what I missed. So in the spirit of focusing on eager day and all the implications of that, I think most people when they think of John six, what's the first thing that pops in your mind, the

[B]

feeding of the 5,000.

[A]

Yeah. Bread of life. But I think most people that follow Jesus, they think, well, controversy. Because he's talking about, oh, yeah, is

[B]

it the flesh and the. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And so within the vein of what we're discussing. In the vein of what we're discussing, it's a lot like the controversy on the name Easter or the Bible. Because you're like, what does he mean? Well, I think I figured it out. So if you just look at the story, and this is all coming back to this idea about life, why he's booking in his letter in First John with, we've seen the life. And then when he gets to the last chapter, he brings it back up. Maybe I should have read that, because I read the first four verses. So look at the end where we're going when he says in verse 11 of chapter 5, he says, and this is the testimony. God has given us eternal life and this life. But I was just making the point that when First John is talking about life, light, and love, specifically, kind of like the DNA of God, but life is being highlighted. Because when you think about it, if you're not alive, what are you? You can't love if you're dead, right? So when he gets to the end of 1 John, he circles back and says, Verse 11. This is testimony. God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life. He who does not have the Son does not have life. So you're like, what does that mean? And so the more I got to reading these passages that we went over in John, I kind of had an epiphany. I'm like, I think we've missed something here. And that's what I was trying to get at. So I want to use the example and the one in John 6. Maybe y' all haven't missed it, but I think I have missed it, because I think this is coming from a place where in the garden you had humans created by God. And he says, okay, you're free to eat any of the tree. And in the middle of the garden here we have this tree of knowledge, good and evil. But then we have this tree life. So you can read Genesis 3 after the sin, and you kind of see the connotation of having that tree of life. Because he then makes a statement. He says, after they sinned, the evil one showed up. Because remember, when the evil one showed up, what was he talking about? Death. He's like, you won't die. And then he gave his excuses. But now here's the epiphany I have. Whenever death is around, you see the evil one emerge. He comes up, he's a murderer from the beginning. But there's other passages that you're going to see.

[B]

He's a reminder of that philosophy.

[A]

So there's a lot of conclusions that we make from the garden. And having this tree of life, which I don't think we've highlighted enough, is where I missed it because I was taught as a kid, well, this is all about spiritual death, because when they. When they ate of the tree, well, they didn't die. Oh, really? They actually did eventually. Because why? Because that passage in Genesis 3, it says they will no longer be allowed to reach out and partake in the tree of life and live forever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, that tells you something. When. When God created them, he created them mortal. The tree of life was actually a gift for them to stay alive. Right. Would you agree?

[B]

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, 100%.

[A]

So, so what was. What were they separate? What was the separation? Because it made me think, well, when they sinned, God actually came to them and said, hey, what are you doing? Right, right. They're like, well, they were separated from God. Well, how come they're having a conversation with him?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He says, you're separated from the tree of life, so just follow where this is going. And so by being separated from the tree of life, they eventually died. Now, there is one obscure passage in there because they were living a lot longer at first, but he says, I'm going to withdraw my spirit from them. And then he limited their days to 120. But still they were going to die as a result of the sin. So before I read John 6,

[B]

two

[A]

verses that I believe confirms what I just said, which I had never made this connection before this. If I read Romans 5:12, it says, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin. Now what if this is what I just illustrated, that you die because you're separated from the tree of life. And in this way, death came to all men, because all sin. So that's 12. But then look at 21. So that just as. Now look how he depicts it here, sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness. So you have one verse that says death is reigning, verse 12. And then you have verse 21 that says sin is reigning in death. He's like. He personifies literal death and sin as like something that reigns like a king. It's a king. Which Makes you think, oh, no wonder Jesus said he was king of kings. Because Paul's using death and sin in connection. So said all that to say when you read John 6, what is he really talking about? So if you start at the beginning, well, he feeds the 5000, right? And he actually mentions world in 6. 14. After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, surely this is the prophet who is coming to the world. But he's introducing a new world because normal humans can't make a meal for 5,000 out of how many fish and bread was it?

[B]

It was two fish and five loaves of bread.

[A]

Yeah. This is interesting. So then the next paragraph. Well, he. He walks on the water. Well, what happens during that? A storm comes up. And the disciples, they're afraid. Well, why are they afraid? A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. So let's just say you're out in the middle of a lake and a storm comes up. Why ultimately are you afraid?

[B]

Afraid you're going to die?

[A]

Afraid you're going to die.

[B]

You're going to drown.

[A]

What I'm saying is I didn't notice this theme in John 6 until I just kind of unpacked what this is all about. In First John, I was like, he's making a point here that he made before in John 6. I just missed it. So a strong wind came up. When they had rode three, three and a half miles, they saw Jesus approach the water, walking on the water. Well, they're terrified again because now not only are they terrified to die, there are like some beings out here. He's going to get us. Which I don't know what else you would think. Have you ever seen somebody walking on the water during a storm without a boat?

[B]

I've never seen anybody walking on the water at any time.

[A]

We would call that a monster at first glance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then he said to them, well, it is I don't be afraid. So what is he getting them to see as far as equating of their fear of death? I'm not scared. You're scared of drowning? I'm walking on it. So there's a. I just think as we're looking here, if you had a person who could make food out of thin air, well, you wouldn't worry about dying of starvation, you know. So then this gets interesting when they start discussing it because they found him on the other side in verse 25. Rabbi, when did you get here? I'll tell you the truth. You're looking for me. Now. Watch this not because you saw miraculous signs, but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. So all of a sudden he's saying you're seeing something, but you're not seeing. You missed the sign you're in. And I think this is a really, really deep thing.

[C]

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My lovely wife went with the emerald green arbor vitae.

[C]

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[A]

So then he gets down. And in verse 25 they're asking, when did you get here? And he's like, you didn't. You missed the signs. You're hung up on the food and bread. And so then verse 27 says, do not work for food that spoils, but for food that Endures to eternal life.

[B]

Like maybe the Tree of life.

[A]

Oh, we're getting there now. We're getting there. So he talks about believing in him, and then he brings up the illustration of Moses in the wilderness and him providing. Now what's interesting about that is when you get down to verse 56 and he well, let me just start in 53. Jesus said to him, I'll tell you the truth. Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. You're like, wow, this is crazy.

[B]

Which is why they were accused of me of cannibalism. And all this from those statements.

[A]

It's the one thing we didn't make. Remember when in John 2, when he's like, I am the temple, he's literally making an analogy of I am the tree of life, you eat of me. It's a gift from God. Because watch what happens. 54. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life. And I'll raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the Father sent me. And I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. Now this is interesting. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died. They died. They still died. They ate manna, but they died. But he who feeds on this bread will live forever. And so I noticed something else when you get down to verse 65, because on, on hearing this, they're like, this is a hard, you know, teaching. Who can accept this, aware that his desire this. 61. They were groan. And Jesus said, does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before. The Spirit gives life, the flesh counts for nothing. Which is now makes that more sense where you're just hung up on a temporary meal. You don't understand. I'm a gift from God for eternal life. Like the Tree of Life, this is all about death and overcoming it. So then when he gets to 65, one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible as of three hours ago, in my opinion, because this is a terrible translation in the NIV and I'll prove it to you. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father in the NIV says has enabled him. So people teach, oh, there's like he pushes a button or it's the same Word for gift, for God gave, unless the Father gives him. It's like a gift for God, so love the world that he gave. Same word, John 3, 16. That word. This is it. For some reason, they couldn't wrap their mind around it because they're thinking it's a spiritual death. And he's like, no, this is the gift of the tree of Life. It's a person, it's a being. So that's why these. These verses that are so hard for us to wrap our head around. So that's why in John 11, when he said, I am the resurrection and the life, he makes this statement, because this is so confusing. If you're not getting what happened. In John 6, he says, he who believes in me will live even though he dies. Everybody can understand that because we're like, okay, I'm going to die. Put my faith in trust, Jesus, I'm going to live. The next phrase is what we can't see. And this is the difference in seeing the bread and the fish and not seeing it as a sign, because watch this statement, verse 26, and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Mm. Do you believe this? I mean, I wonder what they were thinking. They said, yes, I believe that you're the Christ, the Son of living God who is coming in the world. Didn't address that side of it because it's like, well, wait a minute. Never die. What do you mean? So my whole point is, he was introducing a concept that is from another world, it's from another mode of being. And you throw in the passage, like, at the resurrection, you know, whose husband will the woman have if she's been married seven times? And he's like, to God, all are alive. You're ignorant of the power of God. There's a. If you're in me, death is no longer a problem. So throw in the verse in Revelation, chapter one, and then I'll get you thoughts on where I'm going with this. Revelation 1, where he says, because this is the most underrated I am. We don't talk about it. We have the seven I ams.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Well, what about this one? So John has this dream. He falls into a trance. This is so the irony here is thick. He sees, he looks up, and all of a sudden he's in the throne room of heaven, even though he's on the island in Patmos. And then he says, I saw him. Verse 17. I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said, well, here's that same phrase that he used with the disciples during the storm. Don't be afraid. I am the first and the last. Now watch this. I am. I am the living one. I was dead. And behold, I am alive forever and ever, and I hold the keys of death and Hades. I mean, if you put all this together from the Romans 5, which most people say, well, that's not talking about physical death. That's a spiritual death. You go to John 6, people are like, that's not physical death. It's talking about spiritual death. You know, you have to be drawn spiritually to him. That's what people say about that verse. And I think they've missed the whole point of the tree of life, which then a few verses later, to the first church in Ephesus in verse 7, what does he say at the second part? To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. So go back to the thief on the cross when he said, today you will be with me in paradise. Well, what does paradise mean? You do the rabbit hole of it. Garden. Why would he be saying. Just think about what he's saying. Hey, we're fixed to die, but later let's meet in the garden.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What? What are you. We're fixed to die. Well, there's a tree of life that he is. Yeah. And that's why he said, you'll be with me in paradise. I just found it fascinating and wanted to know what Yalls thoughts were.

[C]

Well, we may be out of time.

[B]

We are out of time. Maybe we have to reserve our thoughts. I got some. Maybe we'll reserve those for the next podcast. We'll do a Jay. That's very interesting. And it does tie in John 1st John and Revelation all through the same concept. So we come back next time on Unashamed. Zach and I will give our opinion.

[A]

And it all started from a misunderstanding of the word Easter.

[B]

Let me hear from you, Tanner. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.