Ep 1309 | Willie Robertson’s Pyromania Sparks a Family Divide & Rome’s Fall Started With Jesus

Summary

Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1309 | “Willie Robertson’s Pyromania Sparks a Family Divide & Rome’s Fall Started With Jesus”
Date: April 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode blends classic Robertson family storytelling—focusing on Willie Robertson’s lifelong love of burning yard debris (his “pyromania”) and the generational differences around work ethic and property—with a deep dive into early Christian history, specifically the rise of persecution under the Roman Empire, and how Jesus’ entry into history marked the beginning of Rome’s long decline. The discussion meanders from lighthearted family memories to profound theological and historical analysis rooted in their shared biblical worldview, all in the easy, humorous, and honest tone that defines “Unashamed.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Yardwork & Willie’s "Pyromania" (00:01–09:47)

• Landscaping and Roles:

  • Al jokes he’s now retired from hands-on yard work, only directing others. “I’m the foreman. Yep. I’m retired from having too much skin in the game on the yard work.” (01:25)
  • Zach teases Al was “so poor at it” that his wife told him to hire someone, recalling when Zach himself managed Al’s yard before Duck Dynasty days.

• Willie’s Burning Obsession:

  • The running joke: Willie is constantly tending burn piles post-ice storm, “like the burning bush with Moses.” (John, 03:21)
  • Family describes Willie's solitary, almost meditative approach—he loves doing it alone and doesn’t want help. “When you go to try to help him, he just moves to another spot.” (Christian, 08:00)
  • Zach and others connect this love for burning debris to a desire for closure and tangible accomplishment, especially compared to the never-finished work of ministry. “If you’re in a business where you don’t get closure in your life a lot… it’s nice to do that kind of work where you cut up a tree, you burn it, it’s gone.” (Al, 08:07)

2. Rome, Christianity, and the “Gates of Hell” (09:47–19:46)

• Transition to Ancient Christianity:

  • The episode pivots from yardwork to the focus of their current online course—early church history and Roman persecution.

• The Power and Appeal of Roman Empire:

  • Family marvels at Rome’s historic power and grandeur. “It’s incredible to think about how powerful Rome was in the heyday… Maybe the most powerful world power maybe in history, at their peak.” (Al, 11:08)

• Jesus as a Challenge to Empire:

  • The group explores how Jesus entered history at Rome’s apex, in humility, bringing a divine, legitimate power that subverted Rome’s illegitimate authority. “You've got Rome with excessive power that honestly is illegitimate, and then you have Christ with legitimate power, humbling himself, entering in.” (Al, 13:05)

• The “Gates of Hell” as Defense:

  • Discussion of Matthew 16:13–19: Jesus’ prophecy that “the gates of Hades will not overcome” His church, signaling that the kingdom attacks evil, not the other way around.
  • “This was going to be an offensive movement because the gates of Hell were the defensive front for what Satan and hell had been doing… That is honestly one of the key things I think about when I think about, okay, where is God moving? If I see retreat and fortification, I’ll probably back away from that. But if it’s expansion of the kingdom… I want to lean in.” (Al, 17:39)

3. Persecution, Power Dynamics, and Early Christian Witness (19:46–34:50)

• Rome’s Hostility to Christians:

  • The family examines Rome’s reasons for persecution: Christians’ refusal to participate in the imperial cult and pagan sacrifices made them appear unpatriotic and as threats to national identity.
  • Christians were slandered as “atheists” (for denying the Roman gods), cannibals (misunderstanding Eucharist), and sexual deviant (misreading agape feasts and “holy kiss”). (24:37–25:12)

• Upside-Down Kingdom:

  • Zach reads Matthew 11:11–13, showing Jesus’ radical message: “Among those born of women, there is not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist. Yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he…From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.” (Zach, 23:32)
  • They highlight the brilliance: Rome viewed Christianity’s humility and voluntary suffering for Jesus as nonsensical and subversive.

• Persecution as Growth Catalyst:

  • Persecution (like Stephen’s martyrdom or waves under Roman emperors) only created more growth and strengthened Christian witness. “They thought they were stamping out the church, not knowing that it was that persecution that actually led to the expansion of the church.” (Al, 27:48)
  • They relate to modern martyr stories (the Coptic Christians' beheading), drawing a line from Rome’s coliseums to persecution today.

4. Justin Martyr, The Role of Suffering, and Christianity’s Endurance (29:32–42:32)

• Justin Martyr’s Example:

  • They discuss how Justin, an early Christian apologist, was compelled by the Christian martyrs’ courage, seeing their willingness to die for truth as proof of true faith.
  • “It was that very thing that Justin Martyr saw. He saw these Christians going to death for what they believed to be true… He became the father of the Christian martyrs.” (Al, 29:27)

• Christianity’s Historical Impact:

  • Reference to Tom Holland’s book Dominion, which argues Western civilization’s human rights ideals all stem from Christianity.
  • “Christianity alone stands head and shoulders about bringing human flourishment to the world… The movement that has brought human flourishment to the world has happened through the church.” (Al, 25:12)

• Roman Perspective & Decline:

  • Roman authorities feared Christianity would weaken traditional cultural-religious identity, leading to Rome’s downfall. Ironically, Rome’s own decadence and debasement (seen culturally, artistically, and even in devalued coinage) brought their ruin. (Al, 35:47)
  • Parallels are drawn to perceived decline in the modern West.

5. The Kingdom That Endures & Our Allegiance (40:06–End)

• Transcending Nationality:

  • Discussing Hebrews 11:13–16: Christians are “aliens and strangers” seeking a better, heavenly country—and our true citizenship is in God’s kingdom, not any earthly empire. “My citizenship is some other place. It's beyond the United States of America.” (Zach, 41:41)

• Human Nature, Power, and Sin:

  • The group explores inborn covetousness, selfish ambition, and the “mimetic desire” (René Girard) that causes us to sabotage each other rather than seek mutual flourishing. (Al, 42:32)
  • They relate the Roman persecution to the universal human tendency to consolidate power out of fear, not reason.

• Personal Anecdote—"Coveting" at the Final Four:

  • Al humorously confesses to being unable to enjoy great basketball seats because someone else (his brother) had even better ones, equating modern jealousy to the same motives behind Roman persecutors and our fallen nature.
    • “My sinful nature…if his seats would have been behind me or he would have got moved behind me, I’d have been like, man, we got the best seats in the house. But the fact that he had better seats than me made me… I would have been very happy had he moved. And that’s how we are, though. Like, this is like sin.” (Al, 46:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Willie’s Pyromania:

  • “It's been like the burning bush with Moses. It's just been like this continual… you'll see him out there working, and you'll have this inclination to be like, I think I should maybe go help him. But he definitely does not want help.” (John, 03:21, 07:33)

• On the Gates of Hell:

  • “Hell has gates, not the kingdom. And then the way the kingdom proceeds is it barrels through. It just pushes right through, and it storms the gates of hell.” (Al, 18:40)

• On Christian Impact:

  • “...modern science, medicine, hospital systems, charities, caring for the poor... it’s all anchored in Christ. And I mean, without the Church, there’s none of that.” (Al, 25:12)

• On Martyrdom:

  • “I cannot imagine how intimidating, as a believer in Jesus, it would be to be in that Roman Coliseum and to see a people group martyred in such a way… it was that very thing that Justin Martyr saw. He saw these Christians going to death for what they believed to be true… He became, known as the father of the Christian martyrs.” (Al, 29:27)

• On Rome’s Decline and Ours:

  • "They had inflation…That’s what we’re doing now. Like, we’re literally devaluing our currency. We do it differently. We just print more money and put it into the system..." (Al, 35:47)
  • “It Looks a lot like. I think one of the reasons why people talk about the fall of the Roman Empire so much is because they wonder, are we in decline? Is the west in decline? And you do see things that are similar, a lot of similarities.” (Al, 35:47)

• On Christian Identity:

  • “I love my blue passport, but you know what? My citizenship is some other place. It’s beyond the United States of America.” (Zach, 41:41)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:01–09:47: Family yardwork, Willie’s burning obsession, generational approaches to labor and closure
• 09:47–19:46: Transition to ancient Christianity, Rome’s rise, Jesus’ confrontation with empire, Gates of Hell teaching
• 19:46–27:54: Early persecution, slander against Christians, the paradox of Christianity’s growth through suffering
• 27:54–34:50: Justin Martyr’s conversion, the effect of witnessing martyrdom, historical continuity to present martyrdom
• 34:50–42:32: The true impact of Christianity on Western values, decline of Rome vs modern decline, roots of cultural conflict
• 42:32–End: Human nature, coveting, and the universality of sin from ancient Rome to modern day; family anecdote about envy

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Tone and Language

• The episode flows with humor, humility, and candid reflection—balancing Southern storytelling (“pour a glass of tea”) with deep, accessible biblical teaching and honest confessions about human nature.
• The Robertsons repeatedly tie ancient history to their own lives, American life, and the practical following of Jesus today.

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Takeaway

The Robertson family’s engaging blend of familial warmth, historical insight, and gospel conviction encourages listeners to perceive the continuity of God’s kingdom from ancient Rome to now. Through personal stories and serious theological discussion, they remind us that though empires fall, Christ’s kingdom endures—driven forward not by earthly power, but by faith, sacrifice, and the unstoppable, upside-down force of the gospel.

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For listeners:
If you want to journey deeper into these themes, join the Unashamed Academy Ancient Christianity course at unashamedforhillsdale.com. Finish the course, upload your certificate, and you could join the Robertsons for a live taping in West Monroe.

Transcript

[Al]

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. Sorry, we got the in between the podcast. You know, we have interesting discussions.

[Zach]

Whoever airways if we air those, that's the end of it.

[Al]

Yeah, this is. That's the end of it. This is our, our Friday episode, Unashamed for Hillsdale. You can take the course for free with us. We're doing Ancient Christianity right now. All you got to do is go to unashamed for hillsdale.com and we're going to pick one listener to come down to West Monroe, Louisiana and watch a live recording of Unashamed. And we're going to actually pay for travel and lodging for you and the guests, up to $11,000 each. All you have to do is take the Ancient Christianity course with us. You got to finish all the quizzes and send us your certificate of completion. And you can do that by just uploading the certificate at watch Unashamed. That's watchunashame.com and you'll be entered into the drawing. So we'll pick a winner in June. So definitely want you guys to finish this course with us. I've actually got it when I leave here, guys, I gotta leave. I'm landscaping my house right now. So I've got a ton of people over there working and I've gotta go tell them exactly where to put the plant. So if I, if I cut out early, I apologize, but I may have to do that. So.

[Zach]

So your disclosure. So you're just the foreman. Yeah. The operation. Right. Is this.

[John]

That's.

[Al]

I'm the foreman. Yep. I'm the.

[John]

You have to leave early to tell people where to go.

[Al]

That goes there. This goes here. Yeah, I'm retired from the, from the, you know, having too much skin in the game on the yard work.

[Christian]

So when did you retire from the yard work game?

[Zach]

Well, he did it, he did it because he was so poor at it was the problem because he was. We talked about this on the regular Unashamed podcast. Jill says you're doing such a terrible job, you now have to hire it done. And so he was forced there. He didn't want to do it on his own.

[Al]

The last time I hired a yard boy was. Was your father and your father in law really was my yard boy. Circa 2000. I don't know, maybe 11, 12. When did duck Dynasty come out?

[Zach]

Yeah, right along in there in 12.

[Al]

Yeah, it was right. It was right before he took over Duck Commander.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Zach was big time and, and had a big pharmaceutical job. And you know, company car. He's living over on the big golf course that we played at. And he was big time. And Willie, who weren't managing camp in those days and early days of him taking. Doing Duck Commander with Corey. And so he tells the story hilariously about Zach coming out with this little Dave Ramsey envelope with this cash set aside, you know, because he was doing Ramsey. And we actually talked about this with Ramsey on the podcast, which was hilarious. And so. And then he's big time. And Zach, he said, well, you know, you do you and I'll do me. We'll see where we wind up. And then, you know, Willie's got his. Little. Zach's one of our best employees now.

[Al]

He's got his whole bed.

[Zach]

Well, that is. Well, that's who.

[Christian]

Because my dad is. He doesn't hire out for. Well, he does hire out for yard work, but he does it himself and

[Zach]

likes to do it, so that's that. We were talking about this earlier because I've noticed behind Christian's house, there's been a constant fire. For days now.

[John]

It's been like the burning bush with Moses. It's just been like this continual.

[Zach]

I was expecting maybe to see you out there without your sandals on. Just.

[John]

It'll be a fire. It'll rain all night, and I'll wake up, and the fire is still going in the morning. So I don't know what he does to cultivate it, but it's.

[Zach]

He's been. Let me tell you something. He's been doing it for 50 years.

[John]

Well, the funniest part was when. So when the. We're kind of referring back to the ice storm, when it first hit, he would. You pull down our driveway, and he would have these mini burn piles. It'd be like a. Like a foot circumference, and there'd be one here, one further down, one like.

[Christian]

It was.

[John]

It would be. You would drive down, and there'd be 10 pillars of smoke, like little. Like little clumps of sticks that are just burning scattered throughout the whole yard. It was pretty.

[Zach]

In another life, he could have been. What do they call him? The pyromaniacs. Yeah. Where he could have just, like, burned stuff down. But he was little. He was, like, super young. And when he would get into this. And of course, mom loved it and encouraged it because dad would never do yard work. He saw. My dad saw it as some sort of test of your masculinity to not do yard work. Like, it's like, oh, yeah, the frost will, but.

[Al]

And. And not Only not do it, not pay for it either. No, it was just, no, you don't touch your yard.

[Zach]

You just let the Almighty deal with that. This was his point, you know, I said, well, dad, but it looks. I mean, there's snakes and it's dangerous.

[Christian]

No, that's, that's what my dad says. It's like a, it's like a thing for him now to have the perfect yard and to work on the yard. Because he was always so mad at Phil for never working in his yard his whole life. He was like, you got to get it working that yard.

[Zach]

Which was always kind of funny because Willie and dad had. They were so much alike in terms of their sort of entrepreneurial spirit. And it's no accident to me that that's what he goes out and speaks about when he does. Kind of the combination of faith and business. And that's the way dad was too. I mean, they just had a. They have a unique vision, but they also, because they had that, they shared that. They also clashed the most, which was interesting. Out of all of the brothers, of course, you know, I mean, Jeff and I went through some prodigal clashing, but other than that, we didn't clash near as much. But Willie and dad always did. And that's why Willie says now it meant so much to him when he took over Duck Commander that dad allowed him to actually do it because he thought that might go on. But it didn't. But yeah, I think that's why he always loved working in the yard. Mom would encourage it and he would. Which is funny. Back in the day when he was just a boy, he had to live out there with it. Like he would go like camp out to clean the yard. I mean, like he would get a tent or set his little bed up in the cook shack or whatever.

[Christian]

He said he would have huge burn piles at like 6 years old.

[Zach]

Oh yeah, he did. He managed it. And he never burned everything down. You'd have thought, you know, a six year old kid. But he learned it well. He managed it pretty good. He was self taught. He was self talk. He was.

[Christian]

And he's still doing it. He was out there about eight hours the other day.

[Zach]

I know. And it was funny because your mom was on the other day and she kind of got a little tearful even. She said, you know, I was just so proud of him because he's taking care of our kids and grandkids because we all live on the compound there. And I was thinking in my mind that's true. But really he Just does it because he loves it.

[Christian]

Well, after the ice storm, we were talking about. We were talking about, like, how we're going to clean all this up and there's other guy with us. And he said. Said we can hire someone. He can get this big scoop, a machine to come in, clear all this out. And he said, my dad said the goal is not to do this fast. He was like, I don't want to clean it up. I want. I want. I want these sticks to be here until I clean them up in six months. Yeah. But he did say, I got the Phil's mindset and yard work because he judges me so hard when he comes over to my yard, which I don't. I like a clean yard, and I think I'm good at projects. I'm like, I'll clean it up. But I do have hoarding tendencies. And so just the amount of stuff

[Zach]

and let's face it, you just soon read a good book than be out there burning pots.

[Christian]

I would definitely be reading a book.

[John]

Well, the thing too, about Willie, though, it's like, you'll see him out there working, and you'll have this inclination or thought to be like, I think I should maybe go help him. But he definitely does not want help.

[Zach]

He doesn't want you.

[John]

He does not want you to help.

[Zach]

No.

[John]

So sometimes I'll feel like maybe he'll think, maybe he thinks I'm being lazy by not coming out there and helping him. Then I'll be like, no, he actually would not want me out here with him.

[Zach]

Now, he may still call you lazy just because he wants to just call you a name. But you're right, he would not appreciate the help.

[Christian]

When you go to try to help him, he just moves to another spot.

[John]

He just keeps his headphones on.

[Zach]

Yeah. What were you gonna say, Zeb?

[Al]

I don't know what I was gonna say. Something about sometimes it's easier to. I'm like that with my kids. I'm like, nah, just get out of the way. Because you got your own way you want to do it. You know what I mean? I like to burn Stu, though. But I live in town now, so it's hard. Harder for me to make big burn piles. But, man, that is. There's something therapeutic about just burning. I think it's too. If you're in a business where you don't get closure in your life a lot, long cycle, you know, it's nice to do that kind of work where you cut up a tree, you burn it, it's gone. You know there is something, something about that where you get closure. So I, I get where he's at, but.

[Zach]

And I do, I do like that too from time to time to have something and to get out there and to sweat doing it and finish it and you walk away from it. I think in a ministry mindset. And Zach, you and I have been doing ministry a long time because ministry is just one work in progress after the other. There's none of us, you know, until all of us, until we end. But you work with somebody in a relationship, you're trying to help them through this particular difficult season in their life. But it's always ongoing and you never really see the full completion of anything because then you just go into a new season. So I think for people like that, you like being able to just finish something, be done with it. And back when Lisa and I were young and needing extra money, we would go clean new construction houses. At night we were doing full time mission a day but at night we'd go spend three hours and it take us about one night to clean up one house completely and get it ready for somebody to move in. And it was good money. But it was also when you walked away, it was done. You know what I'm saying? It was like you accomplished something. They gave you the 100 bucks or whatever it was and you just moved on to the next thing. So there's something valuable about that, I think.

[Christian]

And you know who else like to burn stuff? The Romans of the bodies of the Christians.

[Al]

Oh yeah, there you go. That was good tie in. Well, we are in that part.

[Zach]

You can tell who the smarts once in our table is.

[Al]

So yeah, we're. We're in the ancient Christianity course and lecture six boys Lecture six. The rise of the Roman persecution. There's like a big thing going around or was a couple years ago about people being obsessed with the fall of the Roman Empire. Did you guys tap into that low cultural moment?

[John]

Yeah, I actually was thinking about that when I was studying this. I think the thing for me that's more interesting, it's not the fall of the Roman Empire, it's the rise of the Roman Empire. Because me and John were talking about that of like it's like kind of ambiguous on how it went from. What were we talking about from. Was it Greece?

[Christian]

From the Greek. From Alexander. Great.

[John]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Morphing into Rome. Yeah.

[John]

To me that's more interesting of like how Rome was able to conquer what they did in the beginning of. It's a little, it's kind of Fuzzy.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[John]

Kind of vague versus the fall of it.

[Christian]

But no, I was. Whenever that whole trend about, like, the Roman Empire, that. That was me. I was like, I'm into the Roman Empire, that I was already in that. I know a lot about the Roman Empire. I like the Roman Empire. Something about it. It's just fascinating.

[Al]

Well, Al and I went. I mean, and we did a film there, and we'll spent part of the time in Rome. And a lot of what was in this lecture, like, we got to kind of see some of the ruins, some of the places. And it really is. I mean, it's. It's. It's incredible to think about how powerful Rome was in the heyday. I mean, in their heyday, they were. I mean, I don't know if this study's been done, but I would think it, you know, by comparison, may have been the most powerful, you know, world power maybe in history, at their peak. I mean, would you say that?

[Zach]

Well, Zach, you said this before on the other podcast, that if you had. If you were from Africa or from, you know, some other continent and they had been conquered and they brought you to Rome and you walked around that city, because even now, I mean, I'm so impressed that it looks the way it does all these thousand years ago, nothing else looks that good. And so if you were walking around when it was in its, you know, shiniest heyday, you would think these were gods, you know, because, you know, they were claiming a lot of them claiming to be God. And so you would think that's true, because you look at this and you see what had been done there, and it felt like literally you were transported to the land of the gods compared to you coming from some other place, especially 2,000 years ago. So there's no doubt. And you got to think about it like this. God chose that era, both in prophecy pointing toward it and then Jesus coming during it. So there was something about that era that was unique in all of human history that he would have chosen, because, remember, several times Paul said at just the right time, when the time had fully come. So there's no doubt this was a moment. So it really is a fascinating period. It should be for all of us, because even the divine decided to come into our time frame and into our time and space during this era. So obviously there was something special about the Roman.

[Al]

Yeah, well, if you think about, if the Roman Empire is arguably in this period of time, the greatest world superpower in history, how fitting is it that the Christ you talked about, the last podcast, the Incarnated God, that God would actually incarnate into the most humble of forms. Going back to your question, John, like from what we talked about in the last podcast, like, God comes in the most humble form and leaves. And honestly, the experience is really a humiliate, humiliating death. Right. He comes into the greatest superpower that the world has ever known. Man. There's something pretty powerful about that, that how that sets up in history. You've got Rome with excessive power that honestly is illegitimate, and then you have Christ with legitimate power, humbling himself, entering in. And then the collision course that happens is that the church is born. The. The on the day of Pentecost, the church is born. And then as a result of that, it begins to spread and grow. And then as the Roman Empire expands its power, then simultaneously the church experiences persecution. And so these things are meeting here in that moment. And Jesus, before he was crucified and resurrected, actually gave that warning. He said, you're going to face persecution. You're going to face that. And now they're in that moment.

[Zach]

I wanted to read this passage that he read early in the lecture because I thought it was so good and something I hadn't thought about when this idea about the gates, remember the gates of Hell?

[John]

Yeah, I thought that was really interesting,

[Zach]

being a defensive thing. So let me read this and then we'll talk about what he talked about. Don't forget to sign up and take the course with us for [e-mail] so it's Matthew 16:13. And this is interesting, Zach. I hadn't noticed this before until I read at this time where Jesus is when he asked this question. Jesus came to the region Caesarea Philippi, which, by the way, that was the Roman enclave inside Israel. They just basically made a little mini Rome there. And so he's there when he asked this question. So it's definite tie in to what we're talking about. He asked his disciples, who do people say the Son of man is? They replied, some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others, Jeremiah, one of the prophets. What about you? Who do you say I am? Simon Peter answered, you are the Christ, the Messiah, the son of the living God. Jesus replied, blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you the truth that you are Peter. And on this rock of this confession he just made, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades or hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone, to the point you made earlier, that he was the Messiah. So he made the point that this is a mindset that this was going to be an offensive movement because the gates of Hell were the defensive front for what Satan and hell had been doing or Hades on this earth. And so I thought that was really interesting, looking at it from that perspective, that Jesus is now making a prophecy and Peter's confession. And then ultimately Peter himself will unlock that key to the kingdom when he ushers in the Gospel both in Acts 2 and Acts 10. So it's really interesting the idea that the rise as we were talking about of the Roman Empire, which continues on through this and even beyond. I mean, they're the ones that destroyed the temple of the Jews in A.D. 70, also was the rise of Christianity. And then ultimately, when you get to 300 or 320, Constantine becomes a convert to Christianity and then it kind of becomes the state religion for all of Rome. And even now you see Rome at the heart of Roman Catholicism still there in Rome. And so very interesting that this idea of the advancement also was a dual rise for both. And, you know, one of the apologists he mentions later actually made that point to Marcus Aurelius, and he was like, hey, you say Christians are a threat, but you guys seem to be doing great. And so do we. You know, the idea is we've both risen diplomacy.

[Al]

It's kind of like a little bit of a diplomatic moment as he writes this, because this, he pointed out, this is in the. Well, forget about Caligula and Nero and some of these horrible, you know, the leaders of Rome that were horrible to the church. Yeah, just ignore that. But. But you could tell he was kind of like do a little bit of maybe politicking too. But I, I want to revisit that for a second. Think about this is something, the framework that I think is biblical and it's centered to what I would say is a biblical eschatology is that, is that the kingdom is expanding. I mean, that, that seems to be the picture in scripture even before the king Christ inaugurates the kingdom. Even in the Old Testament. I mean, the Genesis 1:28, the call was not to, okay, I want you to build the garden, cultivate this garden, and make sure you guys build a fence around this thing to keep it contained and don't let anybody in. That wasn't really, the instruction. The instruction was to take it and expand it, to cultivate the earth. Expand it. And so when you think about the nature of the kingdom, and particularly as Jesus is giving this, the keys to Peter, based on this confession that I am the Christ, I'm going to build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail, that does tell you something about the nature of the kingdom, that the kingdom is expanding and moving forward. It's not regressing and retreating and fortifying. That's what hell does. Hell has gates, not the kingdom. And then the way the kingdom proceeds is it barrels through. It just pushes right through, and it storms the gates of hell. And so to me, that is one of the biggest. I mean, that is honestly one of the key things I think about when I think about, okay, where. Where is God moving? What's he doing? If I see retreat and fortification, and that seems to be the underlying strategy and effort of whatever particular church it is, I'm like, yeah, I'll probably back away from that. But if it's. If it's an expansion of the kingdom, and I'm like, oh, I want to lean in and learn more about what you guys are doing there. That is an interesting fact, though, right? I mean, that is the key teaching of Jesus in that text.

[John]

I thought it created a cool visual because I had never thought about that idea of the gates of hell being a defensive mechanism, because it seems almost like a dichotomy when it talks about the gates prevailing, almost insinuating that it seems like that's on the offense, not on the defense.

[Zach]

Right.

[John]

If that makes sense. I thought. I thought visually, I thought that was cool about just refrain, you know, kind of providing a reframework for that. About. No, it's us that's on the offense. And like you said, Zach, hell's the one that's retreating, and it's those gates that won't prevail. But I thought that language was interesting, the gates of Hell prevailing. I just hadn't really thought much about the difference between offense and defense, But I thought looking at that through a defensive lens was helpful from a visual perspective.

[Al]

Because what is the kingdom and what is the church doing is evangelizing and spreading the gospel. And so that is the spreading that's going out. It's going out. It's going out. And so what was happening in this particular moment in history is that Christians, even though the Roman Empire was benefiting from the emergence of Christianity. By the way, I have a book on the shelf behind me by a guy named Tom Holland, I think is his name, it's called Dominion. And he writes about the history of, of Christianity and how much impact it has had on the world. And if, if you wanted to just take a deep dive into like what has, how has the world benefited from Christianity? It's, I mean, it's undeniable. I mean, it's like the history is like undeniable that the world we live in today, modern science, medicine, hospital systems, charities, caring for the poor, the abolishment of slavery, freedom movements, like it's all anchored in Christ. And I mean, without the Church, there's none of that. And so you think about like when he writes to Marcus Aurelius and he's basically saying, have you guys not benefited from, I mean, look, we're, this is great. Like, and you know, that was the truth. But even in this, in the face of that truth, the Roman Empire did not see it that way. And so they began to persecute the Church, which, you know, for some of the reasons which were just absolutely incredible to me that what the early church was accused of cannibalism because they would, you know, they were participating the Eucharist or because, you know, you eat the flesh of Christ, drink his blood. Oh, they must be cannibals, orgies, because of the holy kiss. You know, they're accusing the, the early church of engaging in orgies. All these different things that they, they created like these, this straw man and these false narratives about the church so that they could go and persecute them. It's just amazing. Don't we see that today? The same kind of make believe stuff.

[Zach]

Oh yeah. And they became kind of the whipping boys. I wanted to read this text. This is something Jesus said earlier in Matthew 11, before he said that in Matthew 16. And it kind of goes with what we've been talking about. He's talking about John the Baptist. He says, I will send my messenger ahead of you and will prepare your way before you. And that's a, that's a prophecy from Malachi, that's about John the Baptist. I tell you the truth. And here's the kingdom message. Among those born of women, there is not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist. Yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Which you're starting to understand why this doesn't sit well in a Roman world in theology, because the great people are the ones who are the great people, not the least. And so automatically you see upside down. But listen, and this goes with this idea about the gates of hell. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing. There's that concept about offensive, see? And forceful men lay hold of it for all the prophets and the law prophesied until John, if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear. And so again, it's just that it's that upside down, down philosophy that I think made the Christians curious to. To the Romans, but also totally not understanding how all this was meant to be. And so they became the whipping boys and they became the group that anybody, anytime you want to blame it on somebody, blame it on the Christians. And it happened over and over and over all the way throughout, you know, all these first few, three centuries.

[Al]

So what was that again?

[Zach]

That was Matthew 11.

[Al]

That's good.

[Zach]

Yeah. So it's the same idea that this is. It's a force for good. But I think that's what makes it in and of itself unpalatable for people because I think it's more comfortable to just live in your culture and just go along like everybody else. I mean, because part of the other problem, Zach, was they were abstaining. They wouldn't do the festivals. They didn't appear patriotic because they would make sacrifices. Remember, they said you got to pay your rent, you know, to be here.

[John]

The craziest thing I didn't know that at the time Christians were called atheists because they only believed in one guy.

[Zach]

Right. Because they didn't have all the statues to bow down.

[Al]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting when you, the Celsus, the Platonic philosopher, that's

[John]

the guy I talked about last episode in the book. He was the one that was. That he was denying the credence of the Bible because of, because of Jesus not appearing to Caesar and Pilate and Herod and all these powerful people. So I did not hear him say his name in the lecture, but I just saw his name on the study guide. I was just about to say that.

[Al]

Well, and on the study guide it says is he argued that the Christians should be persecuted for not paying rent by sacrificing to the gods of Rome who were vital to Rome's continued prosperity. And you think about the absurdity of this, and you see this today. It's, you know, we say money is the bottom line. I don't, I don't think that is the bottom line. With, with, with wickedness, you get, you do become futile in your thinking. Christianity alone stands head and shoulders about bringing human flourishment to the world. Nobody does it like the church, like it just doesn't happen outside the church. I mean you may have pockets of it, but the, but the movement that has brought human flourishment to the world is been, has happened through the church. And so I think that what's at stake here is more about, well, who gets to hold the keys to power. I think the whole thing is a power dynamic. And so the Christians were like, man, we're doing our own thing. Like, yes, like there's prosperity that's happening, there's human flourishing is going on. That wasn't the issue they had. The issue they had is that they wouldn't pay, they wouldn't pay their so called rent by sacrificing to the gods. And they view this as, I love the way that Dr. Calvert talked about this. It was like they had this cultural heritage that Rome believed was core to their identity and their prosperity. And they thought that the Christians not participating in the idolatry was actually eroding their cultural heritage and their national identity which would lead to their demise. And so they're like, no, we have to go after these people because what they're doing is undermining the very thing that led to our prosperity. Not realizing that actually what the Christians were doing would actually lead to much more prosperity than they could have ever fathomed. But in this particular case, they didn't see that. And so that was one of the big reasons why they persecuted the church.

[Zach]

And don't you think that again, them not understanding that Christianity came out of Judaism so they just kind of saw it all lumped together? Don't you think they probably thought when they surrounded Jerusalem in AD 70 and wiped out the temple and wiped out the heritage that had been there all these years, that that probably knocked out all of it. I mean, like, you know, from their perspective, they probably because they saw it all kind of rolled into one anyway. So they're probably thinking that's the end of that.

[Al]

Don't you think that the Jews probably thought the same thing when they martyred Stephen? They thought, do you think Saul thought, you know what, we thought we got this thing licked?

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

I mean, you know, they thought they did. The first, a fierce persecution broke out against the church and the church ran and scattered.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

And not knowing that it was that persecution that actually led to the expansion of the church and the, and the church finally going out into Samaria, Judea and the ends of the earth like that happened at when Stephen was Martyred. And so I think that that's. That is the. That's the. That's the crazy thing about God's kingdom. And I think that was what Jesus meant when he said the gates of hell aren't going to prevail. Yeah, they might kill a prophet here or there. They might stamp out a house, church. They may persecute a group of believers a whole bit. But you know what? They cannot stop the kingdom. And I got so much encouragement when the lecture moved into the story about Justin Martyr, or who later became known as Justin the Martyr, of how he came to Christ. Because al, we've been to that Roman Coliseum where they persecuted Christians and we've done kind of a deep dive on that and were immersed in that experience. And, and I cannot imagine how intimidating, as a believer in Jesus, how intimidating it would be to be in that Roman Coliseum and to see a people group martyred in such a way. It would be the. To me, that would crush. I hope that wouldn't crush my faith. Right. And then it was that very thing that Justin Martyr saw. He saw these Christians going to death for what they believed to be true and just brutally murdered. And he said, this has to be true. Why would anybody die like that for something that wasn't true? And he became, you know, known as the, you know, kind of the father of the Christian martyrs.

[Zach]

Yeah. In fact, somebody has erected a very large wooden cross in the coliseum now. And so remember, Zach, we walked in, it was the first thing we noticed, and we were like, look at there. You know, 2,000 years ago, they were killing them for their faith right here. Eaten by animals. And just terrible, brutal ways to die as a spectacle. But the old cross is still there. You know, the spectacle is gone except for the apparatus around it, but the cross still stood.

[Al]

And, you know, Martyr one, One of the things Justin Martyr did was he. He was one of the key figures that argued that. That Jesus was the Messiah promised in the Old Testament.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

I mean, that was one of his big. He was a kind of an apologist. And so he's making the case for this. And, you know, I was just watching a thing. I don't know why it's been popping up on my feed. Maybe this is an anniversary of it. But you remember the Coptic Christians that were beheaded a few years back. And, and you, you think about, like, the. This kind of persecution is still going on in the world. And, and, you know, think about. I saw one of the pastors had a picture of. Of those terrorists, and they had all the the, the Coptic Christians on their knees, 20, 23, 21 of them on their knees. And, and they were basically said, you, you, you renounce your faith or your head comes off. And every one of them, every single one of them died a martyr's death. They went to their death proclaiming the Lord Jesus Christ. And there was one guy standing behind them who was dressed different than the rest of them. And this pastor was like, that's Saul giving the instructions to kill Christians. And he was talking about how no one is beyond the grace of God. And he was thinking about. So it just hit me in this moment like, like these forces of evil have come against the church. We have an ancient faith like that in any world like this, like this should have been stamped out. But, but, but the. But the gates of hell cannot prevail against the coming of the kingdom. And in the face of even such persecution, one of the earliest persecutors was Saul. Now that guy, we're reading that, we're appealing to that guy to tell us what's true about the Christian faith. I mean, this is wild. This is just wild, what the kingdom has done and the advancements that we've seen in the name of Christ. And it's so encouraging that we belong to an ancient Christian faith.

[Zach]

So we want you to sign up, take the course with us for [e-mail] Wasn't it, Justin that he mentioned, had this introduced the thought about common grace going back pre Christ? Which I totally agree with, because that's really the whole point of the book of Hebrews, right? Is showing you that faith. You get to Hebrews 11 in that great chapter on faith, and this introduces all these people that have led up to this moment. And then you get to chapter 12. And so you see this idea of the great cloud of witnesses, all those that have been pointing towards Jesus throughout human history. And by faith, that is the combining factor. And then Christ comes, and then now we know why he came, that all of us since then look back to Christ. So you had all those looking forward to this moment, and now all of us looking back to this moment. But that is the whole point. So I thought this guy Justin, I mean, he got it very early, how important it really was. I mean, if he's the one that came up with that concept where they first started talking about it, I thought, well, he got it, he got it from the book of Hebrews, which is very, very powerful. The idea that it's always been about Jesus. It's always been about him coming so at the time.

[John]

So what would he have believed before as he's sitting in the Coliseum, like what would his worldview have been? Would he have been like, would it have been like Greek philosophy or what would it like what did he likely believe before he became a Christian?

[Zach]

Probably just. Probably believed in the Roman deities. All that I would imagine. Didn't he say, was he the one that the Jewish guy on beach, was that him or is that somebody else?

[John]

I thought that was him.

[Al]

He met with a guy on the beach and was convinced that from that that Christ was the only answer to things that he was seeking.

[Zach]

But it was the actual persecution and the commitment to Christ through death that convinced him. Like, oh yeah, there's got to be something more. Right. So if you think about that's how it would have affected any of us if you were living in that day and this was going on. If you love that then I mean you talk about bloodthirsty and just self absorb, but to think these people are going to their deaths over this in terrible ways. I mean that would have to impact you if you had any sort of openness about your heart and your life. Right. I mean, how could you. It's hard for us to fathom in a modern world how people, you know, could just sit there and watch this as a spectacle and say it's a good thing. I mean, at the very least you think you'd have to feel bad about it. But apparently that's how powerful the evil of it all was. I mean if it wasn't, if as long as it wasn't you, then maybe it's not so bad.

[Al]

Yeah, yeah. I think he would have been more just a general pagan until, until he wasn't. Right. And, and he got to witness, you know, firsthand the persecution of the Church. What's interesting is how the story unfolds in this lecture is, and throughout history is that the persecution was fueled, at least in a large, you know, degree by the fear that somehow the national identity would erode through their non participation in the idolatry, which would, which would limit their prosperity or even diminish their prosperity. What's interesting though of what actually happened in history is that through the, the, the might and the power of the Roman Empire after Marcus Aurelius died, I think it was in what, let me pull it up here in 180 that there was a, there was a ton of upheaval that happened over the next,

[Zach]

you know, 100 years.

[Al]

100 years. And it's so funny because it Looks a lot like. I think one of the reasons why people talk about the fall of the Roman Empire so much is because they wonder, are we in decline? Is the west in decline? And you do see things that are similar, a lot of similarities. One of them is the way that they devalued their currency to pay for, to pay their soldiers is that they ran out of money. They ran so that what they end up doing is devaluing their currency. They started to mix bronze in with some of the, the silver and the gold and, and they had inflation. I mean, so, I mean, that's what we're doing now. Like, we're literally devaluing our currency. We do it differently. We just print more money and put it into the system. But you can actually go back and look. Francis Schaefer does a great job of showing this. You can look at the, at the artwork in the Roman Empire and how it declines over time as they fall. You can look at like a coin that was minted in the peak of the Roman Empire and a coin that was minted at the end of the Roman Empire. And just the details, the details are like, one looks like, like a, like a five year old made it and the other looks like a real artist created it. And it's just things get lazy, the art gets lazy, everything begins to decline. So the very thing that they were trying to prevent through the persecution of the Church was the actual thing that they brought on by their own depravity. And that's like the story for all of us. Right?

[John]

That's good.

[Christian]

Yeah. I pulled up the, the bonus content that is on the course about Justin the moron. He was talking about Justin, talking about Justin writing apology and talking about that the Greeks pointed to Christ and what he says, like the barbarians point to Christ. And kind of the idea we talked about in the C.S. lewis course is that the myth of the world all pointed to Christ. And so I think he believed, I think prior to his conversion, I feel like there is some kind of analogy on what he. And I think a lot of the Romans at the time believed to like our modern day agnostics in the sense of there may be something else. Like for him it was. There may be Zeus, there may be gods, but his higher, his higher priority was reason and their version of reason at the time. And I think that compares to like. And so when he, when he converted and saw the truth of Christ and then went back and saw it through the lens of Abraham and then saw it through the lens of the Greek Logos, it all, it, like, it all makes sense to him. For us going off that content, that thing, Zach, you said about, like, the culture of the Romans and how Christianity was like a threat to the culture, I think they were actually right that the, the loss of their culture did eventually lead to their decline. Like, that was true. But there were so many aspects of the culture that was what we would say is terrible and against what God wants for our world. Like the hierarchy, the slavery, the roles of men and women, the punishments they would dole out. Like, there are so many things that I think God was trying to pull us as the world into a new place and like, into a better. I mean, I think it's. It's a little like, I'll say better morality. And I think you can hear that and say, like, God's not about morality, he's about calling to itself. But I think God is leading the entire world to some place and he's teaching us things and revealing things to us that to Christians, that we're finding out that as we study Scripture and as we communicate communion with the Holy Spirit, commune with each other, we are learning these things that we are trying to teach and impose onto the world how we better love each other and earth.

[Zach]

Well, and Zach, you said this before, without the Holy Spirit of God, it's very difficult for people to understand the way you look at the world when you have the Holy Spirit of God living in you, and you're now a temple of the Holy Spirit. So it's going to automatically build in a whole different worldview for all of us. And I love it that he kept asking the question, why would they want to kill? They seem to be pretty good citizens and they behaved themselves. And they weren't. It wasn't like they were trying to upend Rome. They were living there. But I think the mindset is it's because they're just different and they have a different allegiance. And I wanted to read this verse because I meant to read this earlier when I was in Hebrews. This is Hebrews 11:13. And the Hebrew writer, just right in the middle of all these great heroes of the Jewish faith says this. All these people are still living by faith. When they died, they did not receive the things promised. That's out of that common grace. They only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted, and he said this at the very first of this lecture, that they were aliens and strangers on the earth. Remember when he said that right at the very beginning, he quoted somebody from that century, people who Say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. So see, it's bigger than your nationality. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had the opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, and he has prepared a city for them. So this idea that we transcend whatever our culture is, and Zach, I agree 100%. I think we are in decline. And I think it's just going to naturally always happen to kingdoms on earth, even one that we love. I mean, I say it all the time. I love my blue passport, but you know what? My citizenship is some other place. It's beyond the United States of America. And that's why you'll see the same power grabs right now. You see no common sense. I mean, they can't even get, you know, pay. The people that are protecting the airports, it's just like, just let people go and just people suffering. You're like, what is the. What is wrong with you people? Why can't you just get together and pass a bill? But now it's such a power grab for both sides that nobody makes a move and people suffer. And so that's no different than what we're reading about in the fall of Rome. Exactly the same mindset.

[Al]

Well, you think about, like when you get in a. When you're a kid, you see two kids fighting over like a toy truck or something, and you're like, like the jealousies that emerge. Or I think what Renee. Renee Gerard would call it, memetic desire. That, that I want what you have. I have. My desire mimics your desire. I gotta have what you have. And then that coveting enters into the, into the, the mix. And that, that I want, I want, I want. And I only want because you have. And once that takes hold, then all of a sudden human flourishing is out the window because you'd rather see that burn the whole thing down than you would rather watch them enjoy what they have. And so I think that there is a level of irrationality in the depravity of humanity. That the reason why Rome would persecute the Church is a spirit of an Antichrist. It's depravity. It's a spirit that doesn't believe in an embodied life. It's a. It's a spirit that says, let me consume. Let me pull in. Let me. Let me have what's mine. The. The picture that Jesus presented was not that, though by the very definition of diversity, Gave of the kingdom. The kingdom's not pulling in. The. The kingdom is going out. And so I think that you. If you try to make rational sense and you try to think about, well, why would they persecute the church? Why would they do that? And you're trying to make a rational argument for it. There's not really a rational argument. It's that that's what evil does. Evil doesn't care about human flourishing. Evil cares about the consumption and the consolidation of power over somebody else. And all of a sudden, the world doesn't become a place to be cultivated and wealth to be cultivated. It becomes a pie that you got to get your share of. And that seems to be the core thread throughout all of scripture and all of humanity of how we delineate between evil and good. God's kingdom and the kingdom of the world.

[Zach]

Yeah. And it's not just successful countries either, because I've been on the continent of Africa enough times to see the same human nature takes over, whether there's a little or a lot. And the idea is, I want to be in charge here. And so you see all these civil wars and people fighting over things. They don't even have anything hardly. You think there'd be. Makes so much more sense to pull together and do something for the good of our community instead. Nope. We're going to fight it out over what little we have.

[Al]

I. Look, we've all experienced this. Like, I went to the Final Four last year because I'm a big Florida fan, and Fred, my son, I got one out of the five kids got one that likes the Gators. So I was like, you get the reward. I've never taken any of my kids to football games or basketball games because they're all fans.

[Zach]

Thankfully, I stepped in for Max because you said he's the only one that makes. It has any sense in that family.

[Al]

Yeah. So. Well, we went to the game and. And I was so excited because we're at the Final Four. I mean, like, we're one of mo. I mean, not. Not many people can make it to that game. Right. Look at all the fans. And we're there in the stadium, and I get in my seat and I'm up there kind of in the nosebleed section. And I got up there, and the first thing I did was I looked down at section 106, and I thought, that's where I need to go.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Al]

And I literally. I could not. Like, the whole time, I just, like, I got the wrong seeds. Gosh. Because my brother's Sitting closer to down front. And I'm.

[John]

I.

[Al]

And I. I just wanted what he had.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Al]

And so the coveting sets in. Right.

[Zach]

And it's like your brother, the dentist.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Al]

You had a dentist.

[Zach]

You're an anti dentist.

[Al]

I'm an anti dentite. They got their own school. Anyways, Seinfeld reference. But you know what? My sinful nature. If somehow he would have been like, oh, I'm sorry, your seats are actually behind. If his seats would have been behind me or he would have got moved behind me, I'd have been like, man, we got the best seats in the house. But the fact that he had better seats than me made me. I would have been very happy had he moved. And that's how we are, though. Like, this is like sin. And so it's not about human flourishing. I'm not there to enjoy the game at that point. Now I'm here to covet. And you have something that I want. That's. And if I'd have gotten out of his seats, guess what?

[Christian]

You'd want four seats.

[John]

Well, and the deception. The deception, too, is that it's like, with the coveting. Because I'll experience that sometimes, too. Like, you'll have that experience, right? Like, let's say your hypothetical scenario that you just said plays out and your brother's in those seats. You're envious of it, you're coveting it. And then let's say someone comes up to him, they're like, hey, man, you're in the wrong seat and he actually is behind you. Like, but then you would feel guilty. Like, then you'd feel bad that he did just get moved. So it's twofold.

[Al]

But that's because I'm a Christian. If I wasn't a Christian, I'd be

[John]

like, yeah, sure, but that's what I'm saying. But it's the Holy Spirit. It is that conviction of the COVID But then when you actually do get what you are coveting, then you can't even enjoy what you have because. Because then you're just guilty and you feel. And you feel bad for it. So I experience that sometimes and it's like, man, why? Like, why I can't enjoy where I'm at now? Because I feel guilty for the thing that I was coveting.

[Zach]

Well, it's the. It's the phrase in the Bible. Selfish ambition and vain conceit. You see it all throughout. Zach brings us.

[John]

Well,

[Zach]

ton.

[John]

Sorry, that's James. We're selfishness. We're selfish ambition. Oh, my gosh. James. Yeah. Thank you. You will find disorder in every. Every evil practice.

[Zach]

Every evil practice. Exactly.

[John]

James 3:16.

[Al]

I'll end with a confession here, because we're at the end. So I did end up upgrading my

[John]

seeds during the game for the next

[Al]

game, for the next.

[Zach]

For the final. Okay.

[Al]

And so I moved out. I moved to 106, much better seats. And I kid you not, I look and I had better seats than Grant, that. That next one. And I look to my left and I'm looking at section 103 and I'm like, I mean, I mean, it's the nature of evil. So here. So here's the picture though, that this is. This is the nature of the kingdom of Rome. This is the nature of the kingdom of the world. What we're seeing in ancient Christianity, the course we're taking right now is the. Is the history of the kingdom of God, which is an upside down kingdom and we're seeing it unfold in history. So you guys go take the course with us. Unashamed for hillsdale.com it's free if you send in your certificate to. What's that again? Let me see my notes here. Send in your certificate. You guys can upload [e-mail] and you guys will be entered into a drawing and you'll get to come hang with us down in West Monroe. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale. And sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale. Com. And don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.