Ep 1324 | The Psychology of Hunger: Why The Robertson Brothers Do The Grocery Shopping

Summary

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Episode Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1324 | The Psychology of Hunger: Why The Robertson Brothers Do The Grocery Shopping
Date: May 1, 2026
Hosts: Al, Zach, Christian, John Luke
Special Segment: Colonial America course with Hillsdale College

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Overview

This episode blends historical reflection with heartfelt family discussion, as the Robertsons take a detour from their typical format to continue their deep dive into early American history—specifically, the colonial period. The hosts tie in their personal experiences of hunger and grocery shopping psychology, relate it to stories of their modest upbringing, and connect it to the broader context of survival among the first American colonists. The episode weaves together faith, family, American origins, and the enduring drive to provide and care for one’s household. Underlying it all is an appreciation for providence, unity, and diversity—both in their kitchen pantries and in the fabric of America’s founding.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Robertson Brothers’ Grocery Shopping Habits

• Psychology of Hunger:
  • The brothers share how growing up poor has left them with a deeply ingrained need to keep their pantries and refrigerators stocked.
  • This sense of peace and security through abundance is not about lavishness, but about never wanting their families to lack for food.
  • Christian: "We all like to grocery shop, and our wives don't hardly ever grocery shop. We have to, like, when we come home from the road... restock to have peace in our hearts. Like, if the pantries and refrigerator aren't full... I have no peace until that happens." [10:00]
  • Lisa (Al’s wife) calls it a “psychological” thing; Al agrees all four brothers share this compulsion.

2. Generational Humor and "Unintentional Riz"

• The brothers debate terms like "unintentional Riz" (charisma), with much good-natured ribbing about their fashion choices and generational trends.
• They poke fun at each other's quirks—from running shoes to high-end cheese graters—tying these back to family habits and thriftiness born from humble beginnings.

3. The Colonial Experience: Survival, Providence, and Diversity

• The family draws a parallel between their personal psychology of hunger and the privations faced by early colonists.
• John Luke: "That's in contrast to the Pilgrims who couldn't go out and get what they wanted." [11:03]
• The discussion emphasizes the profound impact of individuals like Squanto and the diversity among settlers.
• Al: "Without Squanto... we wouldn't be here... one random Indian... was so pivotal in their survival." [11:28]

4. Historical Diversity in Colonial America

• The hosts highlight that diversity was more than racial; it was also linguistic, cultural, and ideological.
• Christian: "Diversity takes on many, many faces… in this case, they were from different countries… so many things cause diversity and difference." [13:12]
• The idea that American unity was forged not by sameness, but by combining a multitude of backgrounds.

Memorable Quote:

John Luke: "Everyone was there. Everyone's eating at the same table." [25:11]

5. Development of Ideals: The Quakers, Puritans, and Authority

• The conversation shifts to the rise of Quakers under William Penn, their progressive, individualistic spirit, and the legacy of religious and ideological schisms from Europe.
• The hosts explore the tension between individual liberty and social order, a theme running from the colonial period to the present.
• Al: "Monarchy... the counterpart would be the Catholic Church, very centralized authority... then as you go into the colonies... a little more individualistic." [17:44]

6. Benjamin Franklin’s Role and the Birth of American Values

• Franklin is depicted as an archetype of American ingenuity—practical, inclusive, and influential, much like a modern-day Elon Musk.
• Al: "If you owned a printing press, you could distribute information at a far greater capacity... It was the Internet of the day." [29:16]
• Franklin’s list of virtues (temperance, silence, order, frugality, etc.) is praised as a practical moral code for a pluralistic society.
• John Luke: (reading Franklin’s virtues): "Temperance, silence, order... sincerity, justice, moderation..." [32:39]
• The group discusses how Franklin’s (and others’) sometimes-flawed personal lives didn’t negate the positive impact of their ideals.

Notable Quote:

Christian: "He did this sort of again... he had been a man of some vices, but he realized that to have virtue... would draw people together as opposed to split them apart." [33:57]

7. The Balance Between Authority and Freedom

• They differentiate between “authoritative” and “authoritarian” leadership, relating it to both church and government.
• The founders’ struggle to balance law and liberty, unity and diversity, is emphasized as a continuing American challenge—rooted in Reformation thought.
• Al: "If you go full bore freedom, then you end up with anarchy. If you go full bore law and order, then you end up with a dictator. And we're trying to figure this out." [38:44]

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Notable Moments & Quotes

• On Quaker Pacifism and the Realities of Settler Life:

  Al: "It's easy to be a pacifist when you're not… when the front line is not on your doorstep." [24:03]

• On Franklin/Musk Comparison:

  Al: "When Elon bought... Twitter and turned it into X, that was a massive cultural moment... Franklin, because he controlled... the printing press... could shape the culture." [28:24-29:16]

• On Triune God as the Solution:

  Al: "The answer to [authority and freedom] is by its very nature trinitarian. It's God. It's who God is... There is no America without John Calvin... without the Reformation." [38:44]

• On the Tension of Principles vs. Practice:

  John Luke: "Even the equality of humans. Because he [Jefferson] had slaves at the time… when he wrote that." [40:29]

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:01–03:00 – Chit-chat: Upcoming events, generational humor, “Unintentional Riz”
• 07:24–11:00 – Family habits rooted in poverty; the psychology of grocery shopping
• 11:03–13:00 – Colonial hunger, the Pilgrims, and the importance of food
• 13:12–16:28 – Diversity in early colonies; languages, customs, and cultural fusion
• 16:47–20:03 – The influx of settlers, Quaker arrival, and the evolution of liberty
• 22:49–24:03 – William Penn, land grants, and pacifism vs. survival
• 27:30–34:30 – Benjamin Franklin: virtues, values, and media influence
• 38:44–41:11 – Balancing authority and liberty; doctrinal tensions; necessity of Reformation roots

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Tone & Takeaways

• Family-Oriented, Faithful, and Reflective: The discussion, while jovial and candid, is firmly rooted in Christian principles and a sense of historical gratitude.
• Encouragement to Learn & Participate: Listeners are invited to join the ongoing Hillsdale course and reflect on lessons past and present.
• Practical Relevance: From the psychology of hunger and provision to the progression of American values, the episode relates history to daily life and decisions.

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Next Steps

• The Robertsons hint that upcoming episodes will focus on the escalating conflicts between old empires (primarily the British and French) in colonial America, leading up to the American Revolution.

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Invitation

Listeners are encouraged to sign up for the free Colonial America course with the Robertsons and Hillsdale College for a deeper dive into the birth of the nation—mirroring the episode’s call for active participation in understanding America’s roots.

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Transcript

[Al]

I am unashamed. What about you? So we're back. Hillsdale Friday episode on the shame for hillsdale.com. you want to take the courses or do. We're on a detour. This is week two on our detour through colonial America. Because you know what's coming up here in just a few weeks is the 250th year anniversary, I guess. Birthday. Not an anniversary.

[Zach]

The birthday.

[Christian]

The birthday.

[Zach]

The big birthday.

[Al]

The birthday. It's the. It's America's birthday. We've been around for 250 years. That's crazy. So our friends at Hillsdale College, they have a new documentary coming out in theaters. It's called Revolutionary America. It's narrated by the greatest mustache to have ever lived. We established that the last episode, I

[Christian]

said one of the greatest. That. One of the greatest.

[Al]

One of the greatest. Tom Selleck. If you grew up in the era that I grew up in, that was Magnum P.I. he's. He really is just a great actor and narrator. So, I mean, I can't wait to see it.

[Christian]

Who's a believer? So I like him.

[Al]

It feels like the next chapter after what we're doing right here, right after this colonial America course that we're doing now, what's the next thing to do? Well, let's go to the theater and watch this film together. It tells the real story of how this country started. It's not watered down. I mean, it really is a pretty tough story. I love the way that, that they've done the. Even this course. I feel like they've been honest about, like, some of the. The moral failings. And it's not as this. Like this, like the. The version you got when you were in, you know, first grade or kindergarten. This is the real story of how America started, how this whole thing began. And you can see how ordinary people risked everything against all odds. They actually pulled it off and built something that's lasted nearly 250 years. And with that anniversary coming up, it's a story that people need to understand, and it's our story, so we need to pass it on. And this is one of those things that you want to see on the big screen. And so it's only in theaters for a limited time, just a few days. So you guys make sure that you get your tickets now. Hillsdale Edu Film. That's Hillsdale Edu Film. And y' all go check it out. So, Zach, you go see the movie

[Zach]

together and share some popcorn.

[Al]

I will do that. Are you going to pay for it?

[Zach]

I can Pay for a couple dollars of popcorn. Yeah.

[Christian]

The popcorn is more expensive than the movie. Are you. Yeah.

[Zach]

I can afford to get you in the movie theater.

[Al]

I may or may not. Even at this point in my life, I may or may not take contraband into the theaters. I may not. I may or may not buy my own. I mean, I just can't do it. Ten bucks for dreams.

[Zach]

Are you serious?

[Christian]

Sometimes I do it.

[Al]

Yeah. I don't.

[John Luke]

I mean, I would pay $10 to see this movie.

[Zach]

Just think about it. Just think about if a pilgrim 250 years ago heard you saying this, they'd be like, get him in the theater to see our story.

[Al]

Oh, yeah.

[Christian]

They probably would have died.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Christian]

After we've been taking this course and which is. It's so different than anything we've done up until this point. And the production quality of what they've added to. Like you said last podcast, Zach, it's like a documentary in with a lecture because you still have the different professors and Dr. Arne and others sharing things, but, man, the production value of it is really, really high and really, really good. So nothing to do with the wonderful stuff we're talking about in this course, which we'll get back to, but our beautiful and wonderful producer Maddie, sent out a text to our little group. Text which is. It's called the Hillsdale Homies. I think I'll reveal for the first time here to. To our audience. And this was from someone. And it says, al has so much unintentional Riz. It's wild. No Cap. He slays in pulpit and podcast bet.

[Al]

So.

[Zach]

Which is true.

[Christian]

So when this came to me and I saw it.

[Zach]

It's your new screensaver.

[Christian]

Yeah. Well, not at first. So Maddie said one of the comments on last week's episode, and Christian says, so true. So he got it right off. And then John Luke says, always thought that. So, you know, So I was like, well, they affirmed it. And so my answer was, is that good or bad?

[Zach]

And Zach was crickets.

[Christian]

That said nothing.

[Zach]

Zach said nothing.

[Christian]

And John Luke followed up with their gas and you up glaze. And so I said, I'm still wondering.

[Zach]

It's good.

[Christian]

So, like, my grandkids. Unintentional. My grandkids told me it was good. Unintentional.

[Zach]

Riz. I mean, like, you're not trying to

[John Luke]

put off, like, nonchalant.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah. You're, like, nonchalant. Like, it's like, you got it.

[Al]

Okay.

[Christian]

Yeah, it's there.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Al]

Zach, it's Chariz Charisma. You have charisma. Charisma, Riz. Charisma.

[Christian]

Oh, I get it.

[Zach]

It's from Zach. Has Riz right now. But it seems a little intentional with the New York hat.

[Christian]

Zach, what you got to do is you got to try so hard. It's just, you know, you got to do it just naturally. That's what I'm getting from the kids here that are listening to our.

[John Luke]

Zach is hyp.

[Al]

I think about that as I get older. I'm like, do I want to even get, like, cool clothes? Because I'm like, it looks weird when you're, like, 60 and you're wearing, like, the. You know, the. The Nikes.

[John Luke]

Like, you're not 60, though.

[Al]

Well, I'm 48.

[Christian]

I'm 60.

[Zach]

You have 12 years, huh?

[Al]

No, I mean, do you think it would. I mean, do you see older people at this point?

[Christian]

I'm much more into comfort than anything. I wear things well.

[Al]

I mean, look, I got these tennis shoes on, and I bought them because they were comfortable, and they're called Mountain to Coast. I'd look at them. They're called Mountain to Coast. That's the brand.

[Zach]

I've seen those. They're really cool.

[Al]

You think they're cool? Okay, yeah. That's unintentional, Riz. That's not why I bought them. But I wore them yesterday to this thing Max was doing. They were leading worship with your buddy, by the way. Connor.

[Zach]

Connor Smith.

[Al]

Connor. Connor Smith. Yeah. They're doing, like, a thing with the country music singers and songwriters in. In Nashville, and, like, Max and Layla worship at it. So I'm at the country music thing, where it's all the country music singers, and I've got on the Mountain to Coast tennis shoes that Max is making fun of me, and he's wearing cowboy boots.

[Zach]

Just. Just a disclaimer. They are technically running shoes, but. Sorry, continue. Mountain to coast means, like, you're running from the mountain to the coast.

[Christian]

But, yeah, you do a lot of running these days.

[Al]

I'm a huge runner. He's.

[Christian]

He's running from office to house.

[Al]

Love it.

[Christian]

To breakfast table.

[Al]

Big, big four skunk guy. But. But I was wearing them, and they were just so comfortable that now just. I've chosen the comfort. Well, apparently, that's unintentional. Riz, too.

[Zach]

Well, it's my favorite thing because Willie, you know, he, like, pretty much only wears hokas, but he'll buy these hokas because they have, like, a cool pattern, and he likes them, but they'll be like a 300 marathon racing shoe. With, like, a carbon plate. And he's just, like, casually wearing them around the house. And I'm like, these are, like, literally only for if you're trying to, like, PR a marathon. He's like, cooking these, like, carbon plated hoka running.

[John Luke]

Well, he's using them to pick up six.

[Christian]

Yeah, it's true.

[John Luke]

To walk. Walk to his buggy and drive out

[Christian]

to burn his tires.

[Al]

Yeah, Willie's got that thing. I think it's probably from growing up poor that he has that thing where it's like, if he wants something, he wants the, like, the best. Like, the best way. Even if it's like, big time overkill like that. I was like. I thought that the. The cheese grater that your mom got him that I saw on Instagram. I was like, what the heck? This. I don't know what it costs. I know it was probably like, like, like, it was restaurant.

[Christian]

It was restaurant level.

[Al]

Yeah, it's a machine. A machine. Like, it's like one. You plug it. Like, it's like the size of like,

[John Luke]

a. I know how much it costs. Let me say it was more than a hundred and less than a thousand.

[Al]

Okay, that's just ridiculous. But I know what he did. He got out.

[Zach]

He does probably use it every day.

[John Luke]

He does, yeah.

[Al]

Yeah, he probably does.

[John Luke]

And he is cook. When he cooks. He cooks for 20 people out there.

[Christian]

I wouldn't need it. But I will say I. I. For two seconds, I coveted it. I did, too. Only for two seconds. You don't need. You don't do that much cheese. Willie's got a much bigger brood than I do, but I am grading a lot of cheese.

[Al]

But he's also got a vacuum sealer I've been kind of coveting as well. He gave me the whole scoop on the vacuum sealer, and I was like, man, that they could sell some vacuum sealers if he wanted to.

[John Luke]

Oh, he does use that every day. I go over and use it too. It's. That Magnum suit is nice.

[Al]

And then he went through and gave me the whole spill that he said, look, he pulled out, like, a big thing of spaghetti that he had, like, sealed. He said, now, when's the last time you put something like this in the freezer? And then pulled it out and actually cooked it? And I was like, yeah, I know. He said, what? You stack them up in your freezer, and then two years later, you take out all this crap out of your freezer? He's like, but what he said. Then he put out the. He said, the key is the individual seal packs. Then you just. Then you got individual meals. You just throw it in the. In the. In the. In the hot water, boiling water. And so he gave me, like, a full. Like, the full, like, tour of that. So I am going to get one of those. So I do. But I wanted them to sponsor the podcast, so I haven't bought it yet because I want to see if I can get.

[Christian]

Zach was fine with it to the money.

[Zach]

If you can afford the vacuum sealer, you can. You can take me to the movie.

[Al]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

Here's the thing about my dad, though, is he doesn't like extra stuff. He doesn't like waste.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

And he does like extra stuff. So, like, the things he has, he does buy the nicest thing you can possibly buy, but he doesn't have anything extra, and he doesn't want anything extra, and he doesn't like to have extra

[Christian]

stuff, and he wants to use just that. Just that for its purpose.

[John Luke]

For its purpose. And just that. And he's not going to get another one.

[Christian]

But I'll tell you another thing that came out of the poverty, Zach, and it's this way with all four of the brothers, is that we all like to grocery shop, and our wives don't hardly ever grocery shop. And we have to, like, when we come home from the road and all of us travel, we have to go and, like, restock to have peace in our hearts. Like, in other words, if the pantries aren't and the refrigerator isn't full of what it needs to be, then I have no peace until that happens. So sometimes, you know, you come in, you got to do podcasts, and you got to do stuff. And so I'm like, wait. I'm like, when am I getting. When are we going to the store? And Lisa said, I'll go to the store. I said, no, I'll go, but I need to find that hour slot, you know, where I can go. And so it is. I think that's because we grew up, you know, poor, and we were all hungry. Not, like starving hungry, but hungry. And so we just like to go get what we want and get what we want to cook. And so we have. No. Lisa says it's a psychological. Then I think she's right. I can't argue it, because all four of us are the same way, which is interesting.

[John Luke]

And that's in contrast to the pilgrims who couldn't go out and get what they wanted.

[Christian]

What a segue. John Lee, you have brought us right back to colonial America. And you're right, because The. The hardest thing on that first crew was not being able to get food. Yeah. I mean. Right. I mean, that was.

[Zach]

The Indians had to help them.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Or they don't make it.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Zach]

If they don't have the guy Squanto. Squanto. I don't think they make it.

[Christian]

They don't make it. Yeah, exactly. Right.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Al]

So that's why they called him a Providence, People of Providence. Because, I mean, you read the story, you're like, man, I was thinking that without that, without Squanto, he just was like. Like, we wouldn't be here. I mean, they're thinking about this one guy, this one random Indian guy who got captured and. And learned English and could communicate with them was so pivotal in their survival. And then, you know, after them came the Puritans, and now we're kind of on. We didn't get a whole lot into the Puritans, unfortunately, last episode. But. But the big difference between the two was that the. The Pilgrims were religious separatists. They wanted to separate from the Anglican Church, and the Puritans wanted to reform it. So they're. They're hardcore reformers, both coming out of the reformed Calvinist tradition and heavily influenced by that. And so now we're moving into another group that's coming to America, the Quakers. They make the best oatmeal. Right.

[Christian]

Well, I want to make a point. So that was unintentional something. The. The. One of the points they made, which I thought was really, really good, was during this era about what a mess it was in England. And. Yeah, I don't guess I ever thought about it in terms of that, like, you think about people leaving religious freedom, it was kind of more centered on the people that were leaving and their reasons for their personal, you know, inner stuff. And then we talked about that on the last podcast, but I thought this. This episode really did a nice job of showing it how easy it could be to make that decision, because England's a mess.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Christian]

I mean, they've got these civil wars going on inside all these wars inside the church itself. And you made a great point, Luke, in the last podcast about how that those two were, you know, linked together anyway. And so then you got these schisms that come. And of course, the Quakers were part of that. But I love the point somebody made in the episode that how diverse it became. And people now in our century would say, well, they weren't diverse. You know, they were all white people. And as if the only thing that makes people diverse is the color of their Skin. And I thought they did a great job explaining that diversity takes on many, many faces. I mean, in this case, they were from different countries that were coming here that made it diverse. Because as they settled in along the. The coast of now, what is our east coast, they were all kind of countries. There were all kinds of different belief systems. Were most of them white? Yes. You know, but the idea was there are many things that cause diversity and difference. And so I just thought that was really rich because in our current, like, two decade where we live right now, so much has been made only about racial diversity. And there's so much more than that. I mean, race is one thing, but it's not everything. And so I think you have to put that in the right perspective. I just thought that was one of the things that I learned from this episode. That's good when you talk about diversity and trying to unify that diversity. Yes, racial diversity is very important, but so is cultural diversity. And so was a lot of other things that we got all live together.

[Al]

Right.

[Christian]

You know, which I thought was pretty powerful.

[John Luke]

Yeah, they were. And they were all speaking different languages. Like, I was thinking about that.

[Christian]

Like, great point.

[John Luke]

They, like, I think at the time in Europe they had, which is still true today, the cultures were so much deeper and more localized. Whereas, like, I don't even think we as Americans have like a. Have a good. Especially us, like, I would say, like heartland Americans. Like, we don't really have a good sense of. Of diversity because there's millions of millions of people and millions of miles of land that we all basically have the same culture. Yeah, like, that's something I always. I think it's funny when I'm like, looking on like, Instagram or TikTok or whatever and like, people do, like, lately there's been this trend. It's like, remember who you are, like, 90s kid or something. And they like, show clips of like, you know, like, school in the early 2000s or in the late 90s or in whatever time period. And I'm like, there. That is exactly my experience. Like, some parent who posted this in Indiana had basically the exact same experience I had down here in Louisiana. And which is, I think one of the magics of America is that we're all like, have this shared cultural experience, but I don't think we have that sense of how deep and localized the different countries in Europe have now and had. Definitely back then, whenever you could go from one village to the net, you could go a couple miles and speak totally new language, totally different customs. Totally different religions, backgrounds, like all kinds of stuff.

[Christian]

Yeah, exactly.

[Zach]

So what, what, what would have been the pitch to these other countries, like Germany, Holland, Sweden? Like, would they have just known that people from England went to this new. Like, would they have had the perception that it was a quote unquote utopia? Or they have known that half the people died and that it was a terrible journey?

[Christian]

Well, I don't know a lot. Zach may know more than me or John Luke, but I don't know a lot about all the histories. But I know things in different countries were forcing them out. You hear about the Irish and what is it called, the Potato Famine. And I've heard these little things throughout, in these eras of history that were happening in some of these other countries. Christian. And I think that forced them to have to make decisions, too. It certainly may have been for different reasons. It could have been economic or other things, not necessarily religious freedom, as you see so much of the early group of Pilgrims and Puritans. But I do think a lot of them were because of socioeconomic issues, and they were looking for it just like everybody else. It was like, this is a new start, this is a new place. We hear there's opportunity there, so we're going to go just like you would hear now maybe in some state that's doing really well. You know, in the US you're like, hey, ours is kind of stinky. Let's go there.

[Al]

Yeah, I mean, the Quakers kind of show up in an interesting way. I mean, you're seeing this kind of move south as the colonies begin to emerge. And, you know, you have the, start with the Pilgrims, then you have the, the Puritans. And I think each group brings its own particular diversity. You know, William Penn was the one who brought in the Quaker movement. He was. I, I was actually surprised to learn that he had spent a lot of time in prison. So he had, he had been in prison, in and out of trouble, disowned from his family. His dad had negotiated some kind of settlement deal with the King of England before his departure and before he died. And, and then that's how William Penn ended up coming to the US and again, it's another journey. Now, this is obviously a bigger group coming. He's bringing a lot of other people with him, and a lot of people will follow after him. William Penn, Pennsylvania, he comes and settles that area and more of kind of like the, I guess this would be like what the, the more the middle colonies type of area. But he brought in a lot of different ideas, Pacifism was one. Equality, tolerance. The Quakers were, I would say, like, way more progressive. I mean, even maybe, but maybe not by today's standards of what we call progressive, but certainly more progressive than the Puritans, a lot more individualistic even than they were. And I think that's the. That is kind of the tension that, that you continue to see in the founding of America is like the monarchy. And then if you think about the counterpart of the monarchy would be the Catholic Church, very centralized authority, like they, they control it all. Then as you go into the colonies, you have like, like now you have a group of pilgrims, for example, and they're kind of going to. Going to rule together. So that's a little more individualistic. And then when the Quakers come, I think that was even more of an individualistic, like, emphasis on it. And some of that's good, some of that's bad. But it is interesting that he is just another character now coming to set up what he thinks is going to be utopia and makes a lot of progress while he's here.

[Christian]

Remember to sign up and take the course with us for [e-mail] I was thinking too, Zach, that with William Penn there is a certain, I guess you would call it destiny or purpose when you know you have nowhere to go back to. I remember going out years ago and I got to speak at Parris island, which is where they train Marine recruits. And it was life changing for me. And I was there on behalf of the Navy chaplains who service the Marine Corps because, you know, they travel with them on ships and all over the world. And when I saw these young recruits there, I was just. First I was just stunned at how young they are. And of course, when you shave everybody's head, they look even younger. And the chaplains are telling me that a lot of these young men and young women are there because they have nowhere to go back to. They came out of broken homes or even homelessness and difficulty in America because of terrible upbringings. And so the Marine Corps is their last chance to have a life. And I just thought about that first. I thought, wow, you know, thank God for the Marine Corps. They have an opportunity. But then I thought, oh, man, what pressure. Because what happens if you don't make it here? I mean, it's hard to get through boot camp and become a Marine. And so it just, it gave me a sense of what it would be like to have no place to go back to. And when I heard this and saw this story about we and Pen, I Thought about it from that perspective. I didn't know that either until this course. You know, I mean, everybody's heard of Penn and Pennsylvania and, you know, what. What that's meant to our country. But I thought, well, this man had no. He had. He had done everything he could do there and all that was waiting for him. There was jail because he was committed to being a Quaker. And so I thought this was it for him. It either works or it doesn't. And although, ironically, he goes back home to die, which was interesting, so he at least had enough. A relationship back once he came here. But I did think there's something about that. It's kind of the old story about, you know, whoever showed up to the. To the New World and then burned the ships, because it was like, you know, whatever that story is, there's no going back. There's only going forward. And so I do think there's something powerful about that and almost spiritual in the sense that that's kind of what we do when we come into relationship with God. We're saying, we're not going back. There's no place to go back to. This is it now. This is where we go. This is the New World. This is forward.

[Zach]

That's really good. How would King Charles be able to give, like, William Penn land in another country? I was confused by that because his dad was in the military. On his dying breath, asked if he could do this for his son. But I'm like, how would he. Like, you will get land, and I'll tell you how.

[Christian]

Because from his perspective, that was his land. This was his land. So, I mean, one thing about it was King Charles thought the new William was absolutely. These were Brit that are here. And so all the colonies were still, from their perspective in this day, until we revolted. It was under the Crown. So he was fully within his rights in his mind to grant whoever whatever. And so it was still under the Crown at this point, but that would all change. And I'm sure we'll hit that. One of the lectures.

[John Luke]

Well, he said it was his land, but then when they got there, the Indians were just killing them every time they tried to build something. So that's not like a knock on them. But the Indians were like, this is our land. We didn't sign anything.

[Christian]

You know what I mean? Yeah. And I do think it's ironic, Zach, that these were pacifists by nature. And so they wound up getting a pretty good thing built there, a civilization as part of Pennsylvania that became a thriving. He said that Philadelphia was the largest city. But then all of a sudden, everybody on the outskirts that still kind of out here fighting to expand this thing. And it's like anything else. When you're kind of behind enemy. Enemy lines are in front of you, and you're behind safe lines, it's kind of easy to say, well, why are we still fighting out there? You know, we're safe here.

[Al]

It's easy to be a pacifist when you're not.

[Christian]

When the front line is not on your doorstep, you know, because. And that became this early tension Right. In this whole episode about, okay, are we going to fight or not? And I do think it's interesting, Christian, because you brought up the point about the other countries. They made the point that the. Was it the Swedes that brought the axes and the Germans brought the guns? And so, you know, they were from these other countries. They were bringing in things that they were good at. And all that sort of fueled into what would have been the British Empire at the time, but later would become the American Revolution. It really came from all over the world.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Which is interesting because there was so much represented in this sort of united band of what turned out to be rebels, you know, at this time. Not. But, you know, I think.

[John Luke]

I mean, that influx of thought and diversity of thought is what made it work. I mean, that's like. They couldn't decide, oh, well, like, I'm a German, I'm not gonna use the Swedish hat. Like, they're. They couldn't pick and choose.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

Who they liked and who they didn't. They just took the best idea because

[Christian]

everybody was here now.

[John Luke]

Everyone was there. Everyone's eating at the same table.

[Christian]

Yeah, exactly.

[Al]

Like, the best restaurants are like the. They call it fusion. You take a particular culture and you fuse it with something else, and it's like the best of it. Right. But, yeah, it's interesting, too, that I was thinking about the pure. The. How the Pilgrims, how they treated Ann Hutchinson, because she slipped up and implied that there may be some kind of private revelations that she was receiving from the spirit. And now you fast forward, you know, generation later, and you have the Quakers here, and now you have a whole movement that heavily emphasized the inner light. They heavily emphasized, like, private experience of. Of the. Of God versus, like, doctrinal purity or things like that. They didn't. They weren't really revolved around that. And I think, obviously, I think that goes to. You can, like, go too far on either side of that. I think that's why the kingdom always kind of threads that needle, right. And holds that tension in perfect harmony that the true kingdom of God does. But I think you see that. But you. Because even in. In their, like, as they're progressing in their society, heavy emphasis on individual experience. And think about the philosophy of that. If the emphasis is on the inner life that I have, then I can't bind on you my inner experience. So you have your inner experience, I have my inner experience, and let's just all get along. The problem was with the outside world was like, we don't care about your inner experience. We're going to take what we want and we're going to rape and pillage and burn things down. And so then people are like, wait a second, we need security. And, and. And that's how, that's the tension and how this kind of. How this is unfolding in. In the beginning of, like, kind of our history is they're trying to figure out, like, what, like, what does it look like, freedom and order. Like, you got to have a little bit of both. And they can't quite figure out how to put that together. Which is why Benjamin Franklin is such a. A key character in this episode is that when he comes on the scene. Yeah. He's the one that's kind of now going to bring in some of the order in the security, while at the same time trying to maintain that freedom. And it's. It's a very delicate balance, as we kind of, you know, found out in this episode.

[Christian]

Well, don't you think that the reason Franklin was so the guy to be the guy is because he wasn't super religious?

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Christian]

I mean, like, in other words, I think him not having, like, obviously he's kind of in the. In the, you know, in the mold of pen. But then at the same time, he's something different. And so he's kind of building success in the nation. He's obviously, he's kind of a newsy guy because he's, you know, doing the printing press and he's doing the magazine. And so he, like, likes information. I mean, historically, we know he was a bit of a, you know, he was a bit of a, you know, he liked to, you know, work his way around, but he was also the embodiment of what does make America great. And that's the idea that it is bringing people together no matter what. And so I think it kind of

[Al]

reminds me of Elon Musk.

[Christian]

Yeah. Somebody like that.

[Al]

Yeah, yeah. Like. Like, you think about, like when Elon bought. Bought Twitter and he turned it into X, that was Like a massive cultural moment, because what was happening when he did that, He. Whatever your thoughts are on Elon. Elon, I'm not making a. A case good for or against him, but. But you have to at least admit that he is a major cultural force because he controls the flow of information.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Al]

And so one of the things that was brought up in this. In this lecture or this particular lesson is that Benjamin Franklin, because he controlled. He owned a printing press. If you. If you owned a printing press, I mean, you could distribute information at a far greater capacity than the normal average Joe.

[Christian]

It was the Internet of that era, no doubt.

[Al]

It was the Internet of the day. And so he had a lot of influence in being able to shape the. The culture of his area and time because he controlled the method of providing the information with his own printing press.

[Christian]

Well, and even his probability, because, you know, they talked about his use of sarcasm in the way he did that. I mean, even the way he presented the message. Up until this time, every leader that we've seen in this early part of our culture were fiery preachers, and everything was sermons and, like, I mean, bigger than life. And not that that's not good, but, I mean, some people feel left out of that. Like, you know, just a guy that can tell a good joke and just act like he's one of you.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Does make a difference, you know, from time to time. Sign up and take the course with us for [e-mail] yeah, I've seen this happen before.

[Al]

Even things that led and started like, you. You start something, and then as the. You're seeing this right now in this. In the history of. Of America, you. You start to push that authority out. And then all of a sudden these. These little seeds of authority pop up. Well, then they get a little bit more protective over their stuff and the things that they're building, and you can see that emergence. So. So Franklin comes in and through his printing press and kind of his. His worldview, he enables and encourages more like localized government control. Like, you guys need to set up and establish some parameters locally. You need libraries where you can exchange information. You need, like, you need to set these. These things up. Oh, and you know what you need? You need a militia. And so he was the first one to kind of come in because you got to protect yourself. You know, you got to have some voluntary guys, some volunteers that will volunteer for the militia. And so now you're starting to see, like, society form, and. And as that takes hold, then people are like, wait, A second, you know, as we get to the American Revolution, which we haven't got to yet, but you're. Then you're going to be like, wait a second, why we, why are we paying taxes to England? Why? You know, but you see that emerging in this very beginning. This is like the infancy stage of that.

[Christian]

You're going to say something.

[John Luke]

Yeah. I thought Benjamin Franklin, I mean, this was like my favorite section. And after this I'll listen to another documentary, like just about his life. And the thing that I thought he did on purpose in shaping what it means to be an American or a colonial at the time was kind of like looking at what are the things that we all believe or should believe. Like as we'll just say Americans, like whether you're a Quaker or Puritan or a non religious or Dutch or German or whatever, like no matter. Spanish, no matter like where you're from, like, what are the things that like combine. Combine to make us all like the one culture here in America.

[Christian]

United.

[John Luke]

United. And there are these like really like, practical values that he shared in Porcher's Almanac and in his letters and different things. And he had this list of virtues which actually he wrote these virtues down and would keep track of them in his life.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

And I'm so glad. Check it out.

[Christian]

Yeah, that's so good.

[John Luke]

I actually did this when I was like 20 for a little bit. And so I got these. I'm just going to read them and then I'll kind of make another point on it. Benjamin Franklin's virtues, which. And he developed these. And here's why I say this, because he developed these from biblical values, but they weren't biblical. You don't have to be a Quaker, Puritan or Christian to follow these values. These are just the practical things that we all have to believe in to be American and which were temperance, silence, order, resolution, frugality, industry, sincerity, justice, moderation, cleanliness, tranquility, chastity and humility, which are all things that we still, as Americans, like, believe in.

[Christian]

Yeah, exactly. And what I love about it is he did this sort of again, and they mentioned this in the episode versus vice versa. In other words, like he had been a man of some vices, but he realized that to have virtue and to have these particular virtues was something that would draw people together as opposed to split them apart.

[John Luke]

Right.

[Christian]

You know, which I love that idea.

[John Luke]

Well, I mean, I think that, I mean, that's what. When I listen to this other documentary on Ben Franklin, like, he didn't live these virtues. He Failed at all of them at times. But that's the point. Like, he was trying to get better at the virtues. That's why he wrote them down and was keeping track of them. And I think that's, like, for us too, is where not every American, not all of us live these virtues every day. But we have to. In order to live a society that is diverse in religion, we have to follow these. This, like, culture.

[Christian]

And I do think it has something to say, Zach, about the idea that some of these early guys were, again, more authoritative in their approaches and the way they said things, you know, you need to do this because the Bible says you do it. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but there is sometimes a lack of connectivity to the folks that you're talking to. And I thought about, even with Penn, remember, he just boiled it down to a very simple declaration, confession of one almighty God and commitment to governance. I mean, that's sort of like what Jesus did when they asked him what the greatest commandment was. He just kind of boiled it all down to, you know, love God and love your neighbor. That's kind of what Penn did. And that's, in a sense, that's what Franklin did with this just simple line of, if we live this way, what would it look like? And even later on, when the. When the early founders, which include Franklin, of course, were making a. How we're going to be as a country, they kind of went with that same concept. Let's just keep it here in these simple realms. And over time, as that's kind of ballooned into what it is, you know, it becomes something quite different, you know, which is powerful.

[Al]

Yeah. I think that the interesting thing too is the difference between like. Like the. The word would be authoritative versus authoritarian. That's something that's like, they're. They're dealing with that. So authoritative would be like a more of a grounded control. But that's good. I mean, you want authoritative leadership. Yes, you gotta. You gotta have that. I mean, a father, like, in my home, I'm a. I'm an authoritative leader. Authoritarian is different. That's more of the tyrannical. I'm in it for the control. I'm not in it for the actual grounding of the. Of the society or the grounding of the family or the grounding of the system. I'm in it because I want control and I want to run the show and I want to dominate people. That's what they're rebelling against. They're rebelling against what they saw as authoritarian. So they would have saw the Catholic Church, even in some regard, the Anglican Church of the day, as authoritarian. They didn't agree with, they thought it was oppressive or suppressive. And, and so they're, they're trying to get away from that. Later you'll see that translate into how they view the monarchy in England, how they view King George. And they're going to view that as authoritarian. And, but, but they, but they can't get away from authority itself. And that's a lot of this. I can't overestimate this, like this system of, of America of, of balancing out authority and responsibility, you know, or freedom and order, law and liberty, like all these like things that seem kind of like on the opposite sides of each other that you can't. But you're like, man, if you go full bore freedom, then you end up with anarchy. If you go full bore, you know, order, law and order, then you end up with a, with a dictator. And you're trying to, and we're trying to figure this out. And I'm telling you though, the answer to that is by its very nature trinitarian. It's God. It's who God is. And I think that's why the Reformation movement is so important. There is no America without John Calvin. That's just a fact. There's no America without Martin Luther. There's no America without the Reformation movement. The Reformation movement is what's providing the, the theological and philosophical undergirding for this. Did they get it perfect? No, I mean I could, I, I can give you my critiques for my opinion on a lot of that. But, but at the end of the day we have to pay homage to that because that's what these guys are coming out of. But even like William Penn, I mean benefactor, I mean he was a Quaker, but he's still a benefactor of, of what happened with Calvin and Luther. I mean still a benefactor of that. And so that's the answer. They're trying to figure it out. The American system kind of is predicated on these ideas. And then they're trying to, these things are kind of evolving out. But there is that difference. I wanted to, I did want to want to caveat that difference between authoritative and authoritarian, which is one's not bad, one is.

[Christian]

Yeah. And, and that was part of the, these delicate walk. Right. Is this back and forth of trying to make sure to be out there with, have authority in scripture and what they were doing to not then become authoritarian, which a lot of them unfortunately. Right.

[Al]

Yeah.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[Al]

You'll see it play out too later on that as, as these guys are trying to embody some of these ideas and ideals, they, they don't do it perfectly, number one. Number two, they don't fully even adhere to it. And maybe like, it may be more of a pragmatic adoption, meaning that this works. So we're going to do it this way, not even fully believing it. Now there is a, like, like, I'll give you example, like a Thomas JE Probably. I, I mean, I don't know if I'd call him a Christian. I mean, personally, I mean, I, I mean, he's crossed out all the parts in the Bible about the Holy Spirit. I mean, I, I don't, you know, I'm like, probably not the guy I'm going to.

[John Luke]

If he was, if he was today speaking, no one would probably say he was a Christian.

[Christian]

Right?

[Al]

I don't know. You say, say this guy's not a believer, but, but then he was the same guy that wrote that we hold these truths to be self evident. That's right. That all men are created equal and endowed by the Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. He got that right. Yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a purely Christian concept. The man is made in the image of God and his rights come from. From God and not man. A Judeo Christian concept and idea. So I think he understood that pragmatically, you know, but I don't think he may not. Did he really believe in a personal God? I don't. Probably not. I don't know. I guess that's debatable.

[John Luke]

Even the equality of humans. Because he had slaves at the time.

[Christian]

Yeah.

[John Luke]

When you wrote that.

[Christian]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think he understood a principle more than the practicality of where he lives. And I think Franklin fits into that same mode. I mean, obviously Franklin. You're right, Zach. I hadn't really thought about Musk in comparison. But just think about even all the things that Franklin did which are not in this lecture, but just what he did with his creative and scientific contributions to the world. I mean, you know, he was a scientist on top of everything else. I think about that with mushing. Think about all the stuff he's created with the Starlink and all this stuff that he's done. And so it's like, oh, yeah, by the way, they're pretty smart too.

[Al]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Christian]

I mean, they can do something. But it is this idea of American exceptionalism. And I love that they brought out that when he would even go to France, you know, France is like all these frontier people, you know, is that just the cast offs of Britain? You know, in France and, and Britain have always had a long standing, you know, war like relationship. But it's like he impressed them with that. Yeah, like they looked at him and said, wow, this is what this new world is bringing out.

[John Luke]

In this other documentary I watched, it was talking about how in America like people like respected Ben Franklin. They had him do like a ton of stuff, but a lot of people, especially the religious people like didn't like him and. But in France they loved him, were obsessed with him. Everyone in France loved him and they had like all this, all the stuff like he did in France. What I thought was funny about Ben Franklin is like, this is what I learned this other documentary. But you see it in this, they talk about it in this too. The picture of Ben Franklin as like an old man with the hair and like what you see and like the hundred, the bald hair, like that's what you like, that's what we like imagine him. But that was all from portraits later in his life when he was in France and they were doing all these portraits of him because they loved him in France. But most of everything he did, I mean he did a lot in his old age too, but a lot of what he did for America in these early days, he was just a 20 year old, 30 year old, a 4 year old.

[Christian]

You don't see the.

[John Luke]

Never see those pictures.

[Christian]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Al]

Well, they, there's a new movie out called A Great Awakening. I haven't seen it, but one of my friends sent it to me. It's about his relationship with a pastor, George Whitefield, I think and. Because I haven't seen it, but it's about his maybe, I guess it's about his religious experience. You know, I don't, I don't know if Franklin never affirmed the things like the deity of Christ for example. There's a lot that I would be like, man, dude, we ain't, we ain't, we ain't going to the same church.

[Christian]

Probably.

[Al]

Yeah, you can come to our church. I'm not, I probably wouldn't be a member of that church. And but I think again that's what we're seeing. And so you had this argument and you have this, this thing that's kind of emerging through the, it really is a scriptural truth that we get from the Bible about, well, where does the ultimate authority come from? You know, where, where does ultimate liberty come from? Francis Schaefer is one of my favorite probably writers to have ever lived and I've read just about everything he's written and he talks a whole lot about like this, this dichotomy of trying to hold these things in tension. And his point is that it's only in the triune God can you have like real law and liberty. Think about like the nature of like what we're saying here. Is it diversity or is it unity? Right. If it's full blown just diversity, then then there is no unity and it's absolute chaos. But if it's a hundred percent unity, then nobody can think for themselves. And like it's all like. And so it's all just up for grab. It's not all up for guys, it's all already dictated and told to you and you have no real autonomy whatsoever. And that doesn't feel right either. That doesn't feel like I'm going to have any freedom. And so you see that playing out theologically here, right? Is it the, is it the privatized experience of the Quaker or is it the doctrinal purity of the Puritan? Which one is it? And I think it's only in the triune God that you actually can find this. And I think that's why that's the center. Who God is actually is that people say we're not a Christian nation. Well, I mean what you mean by that, but the nation was clearly founded on this understanding and you're seeing it evolve in their understanding of it, that the truth itself doesn't evolve, but their understanding of it evolves. And so when you were talking about like Thomas Jefferson, for example, owning slaves, like, but, but, but it's the arguments that he wrote that were actually used by, in the Lincoln Douglas debates to abolish slavery. And so the arguments, whether we perceive them correctly or not, that's on us as flawed human and you know, sinful people. But the truth itself marches on and stands and that we're just trying to access what that truth is. So that's to me that's the beauty of the story here.

[Christian]

Yeah, and that's kind of that room

[John Luke]

to grow to echo what you're saying. I think that what I think Ben Franklin was trying to do with his virtues and the kind of like morality he was trying to give to America outside of the particular sects of Christianity was combine everyone with this, like, with this sense of like morality, like the American culture, what we need to survive is based on these truths that he believed was that he got from his Krako roots, from the broader context of Christianity. And the rest of the colonials, whatever sect or whatever they believed of version of Christianity, they believed they still had a sense of, like, the ultimate God, the ultimate goodness, this idea of good versus evil, and these. These moral lessons. They believed, no matter what the other thing they believed about God, that foundation of goodness was still established in their root of good, of God. Whereas, like today, which Zach, I mean, I mean, this is an argument we have. Not me and you have a lot, but the argument we hear a lot is people are still trying to hold these morals, but since they no longer have God, they can't.

[Christian]

It's hard to.

[John Luke]

It's way harder to keep them up. And that's what I mean. We're saying you have to have God to have the morals.

[Christian]

Yeah, yeah. Which becomes the tension. One last thing, because we're about out of time just to set us up for where we're headed. The tension that the lesson ends with is this idea of the frontier mentality of defense and moving forward. I would say they were both. And is it going to be funded? There's sort of a lot of internal struggles of what's going on, which is, of course, why the militia, which we mentioned earlier, Franklin comes up with this idea. But it is interesting that where we're headed is it comes back to two old empires that are going to wind up doing battle again, but they're going to do it here on the same frontier with the Indians on one side and these colonials on the other, which is then eventually going to lead to even the battle then between the colonials and the empire. So it is interesting to see that this. These wars are what's coming in these next few lectures on where we're headed. So should be an interesting journey. We want to invite you guys to come along with us once you sign up and take this course with us for free at unashamed for hillsdale.com it's been really, really good. We're just a couple of lectures in. We have four more to go, so come join us on the journey. We'll see you next time on Unashamed for Hillsdale.

[Al]

Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamed for hillsdale.com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.