Ep 1326 | Jase Considers Moving Cross Country but There’s One Dealbreaker He Can’t Ignore

Summary

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Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1326 | "Jase Considers Moving Cross Country but There’s One Dealbreaker He Can’t Ignore"
Release Date: May 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores Jase’s recent travels and his reflections on potentially moving to Georgia—if only the duck hunting were on par with his beloved Louisiana. Through their signature humor and spiritual insight, the Robertson family unpacks not just family roots but also deep biblical concepts, focusing especially on the definition of sin, the legal vs. relational frameworks for understanding faith, and the challenging passage in 1 John about sin that "leads to death." The talk is deeply rooted in personal stories, theological rabbit-holes, and practical Christian living.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Travel Stories & “The Price of Fame”

• Jase in Loganville, Georgia:
  • Jase describes his trip to Loganville and his struggles with Georgia’s notorious traffic and odd Starbucks locations.
  • He humorously recounts running into a supposed cousin, reflecting on the extended and sometimes confusing Robertson family tree.
  • “Here’s what happens. Here’s the price of fame. When you become famous, there’s a lot of people who claim to be family members…” – Jase (03:30)
• Connection to Georgia:
  • The family reflects on past events, warm welcomes, and connections with people in Georgia but Jase’s dealbreaker remains: not enough ducks!
  • “If they only had ducks, I could live there… Not enough ducks for me. But the people, I love these people.” – Jase (02:34)

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2. Family Histories & Faith Roots

• The family shares anecdotes about genealogy confusion, name origins, and how Southern family histories are sometimes more tangled than expected.
• The Dasher/Adcock connection comes up as a running joke.
• “I remember my grandma… she had a period of time… of mental illness. One of the things she used to do when she would have her crazy moments is she would name her names… she had like 10 [names].” – Jase (04:38)

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3. Event Highlights: Faith in Action

• Georgia Event Recap:
  • Jase shares highlights from a men’s event in Georgia where, thanks to a podcast listener, a portable baptistry was made available.
  • Two people were baptized on the spot—“as is”—demonstrating boldness and sincere faith.
  • “They were like, we’re gonna—we got some change of clothes here. And they’re like, oh no, just now, as is. We’ll drive home wet.” – Jase (13:33)
• Observations on Southern Hospitality:
  • Jase notes the joy and energy of the attendees.
  • “Not one person didn’t have a smile on their face. That’s why I was just… so these people are the salty. They are. And we’re excited, it was sold out.” – Jase (09:20)

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4. Bible Study Rabbit Holes: Sin, Law, & Relationships

• Jase’s Rabbit Hole:
  • Alone in his hotel, Jase dives deep into biblical study, especially on the confusion surrounding “the sin that leads to death” in 1 John.
• Defining Sin: “Missing the Mark”
  • The conversation unpacks how the traditional view of sin as “breaking the law” (guilt-innocence, legal framework) can miss the richness of the biblical concept—as “missing the mark,” an archery term implying deviation from God’s purpose.
  • “What is the ultimate definition of sin? …Missed the mark. It was like an archery term. There’s a target, there’s a bullseye, and we miss it.” – Jase (15:31)
• Legal vs. Relational Frameworks:
  • The Robertsons debate differences between legal/transactional vs. relationship/honor-shame worldviews.
  • Al and Zach stress how their religious upbringing was shaped by the Restoration Movement, lawyers, and a heavy legal view of scripture (“command, example, necessary inference”).
  • “No wonder this place is so stuffy.” – Jase (22:36)
• Implications for Christian Living:
  • They argue that a purely legal view misses the beauty of relationship with God. Sin also fractures relationship, brings shame, and requires reconciliation, not just forgiveness of a rule broken.
  • “If it’s just a list of rules, you’re taking out all the relational, emotional components.” – Jase (40:19)

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5. Deep Dive: 1 John’s “Sin that Leads to Death”

• Reading & Contextual Analysis (29:22 onward):
  • Jase reads 1 John 5:13–17, discussing confidence before God and the cryptic “sin that leads to death.”
  • Discussion follows on how the first-century context (Jewish honor/shame culture) shapes these teachings.
• Legal & Relational Salvation:
  • The team distinguishes between justification (legal acquittal), sanctification (progressive transformation), and glorification (final perfection).
  • “Sanctification is… freed from the power or the grip of sin… starting to want God. And that’s a progressive thing…” – Zach (49:37)
• Answering the “Sin Unto Death” Question:
  • Jase suggests this refers to apostasy—outright denial of Christ as in early heresies—rather than everyday failings.
  • “If Jesus is life and you’re in Jesus… [then] it’s not leading to death because I’m in Jesus, who is life.” – Jase (44:12)
  • Zach gives a cliffhanger, promising more on the next episode.
  • “I’ve got a thought, but I’m going to save mine for the next podcast… Cliffhanger number two.” – Zach (55:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Georgia’s Appeal & Jase’s “Dealbreaker”:
  “If they only had ducks, I could live there. You know, they don’t have... Not enough ducks for me. But the people I love, these people.” – Jase (02:34)
• On Family and Fame:
  “Here’s what happens. Here’s the price of fame. When you become famous, there’s a lot of people who claim to be family members to the point of… Now, when I hear that, I don’t even acknowledge it.” – Jase (03:30)
• On the Georgia Event’s Spontaneous Baptisms:
  “Two people responded to be baptized and... they said, ‘Oh no. Just now as is. We’ll drive home wet.’ I thought, now we’re talking.” – Jase (13:33)
• On Sin & Relationship to God:
  “It’s a relationship-oriented shame and honor type of thing… We want to bring glory to God … [Sin is when] the relationship is broken.” – Jase (18:38, 36:18)
• On Restoring Legalism Versus Relationship:
  “No wonder this place is so stuffy.” – Jase on legalistic approaches (22:36)
• On the “Sin that Leads to Death”:
  “If you have the Holy Spirit and you read something like Galatians 5, there’s way more a relational component in there…” – Jase (29:22) “If Jesus is life and you’re in Jesus… [then] it’s not leading to death because I’m in Jesus, who is life.” – Jase (44:12)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:03–02:36: Jase and Zach discuss recent travels and the “dealbreaker” for moving to Georgia.
• 03:30–05:52: Family anecodotes on fame, mistaken cousins, and “the price of fame.”
• 09:01–13:39: Event recap in Georgia, spontaneous baptisms, and reflections on the power of community and faith.
• 14:02–22:36: Deep dive into the biblical definition of sin (“missing the mark”); legal vs. relational frameworks.
• 29:22–34:35: Reading and analyzing 1 John 5:13–17, salvation definitions, and relational application.
• 36:18–44:12: Contrasting honor/shame vs. guilt/innocence cultures in understanding sin and reconciliation with God.
• 44:00–53:27: Theological unpacking—justification, sanctification, glorification in relation to sin and salvation.
• 53:27–55:02: Final thoughts on “the sin that leads to death,” with Zach teasing a follow-up in the next episode.

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Conclusion & Next Episode Tease

The Robertsons deliver both laughter and biblical wisdom as they blend family tales with scriptural truth. Their central insight: understanding sin and salvation requires both a legal and a relational lens. Jase concludes his “rabbit hole” by arguing that the “sin unto death” relates to ultimate rejection of Christ, not simply breaking rules—leaving listeners with a new framework and another cliffhanger. Zach promises to expand further in the next episode.

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For regular listeners or newcomers, this episode offers classic Unashamed warmth, humor, and depth—taking you far beyond simple Bible study to the heart of Christian relationship and real-life application.

Transcript

[Alex]

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[Jace]

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[Alex]

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[Jace]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Zach]

Welcome back to Unashamed. It's. It's always exciting on our first time back because we've been out places, you know, I had. We had two events. I went to Ohio, went to Illinois. I've been to Illinois at least, and I got to looking at it. I've been there three times a year for three straight years. Apparently. This is my new mission field is this great state of Illinois. It's a. But I have declared it. I told y' all this before. It's a. I've declared it a red state even though it's officially a blue state, but it just has a big blue dot right on the top of it that controls everything. So anyway, great people in Taylorville, so thank you all for great hospitality. Jase, where'd you go?

[Jace]

I went to Loganville, Georgia, which is what I learned about the Atlanta vicinity is there's just multiple little towns. I saw most of them because traffic was so bad.

[Zach]

It's awful.

[Jace]

And you know, it's hard to. You think one of the reasons I was excited about this trip because it's in Georgia.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

And there's something about. About Georgia people because I do a lot of events. I think it's not. It's probably the number one state I've been to.

[Zach]

I've got two coming in my life

[Jace]

as far as doing events. And I kind of concluded after this trip if, if they only had ducks, I could live there. You know, they don't have.

[Zach]

I got some wood ducks. That's all.

[Jace]

They got a few. Not enough ducks for me. But the people I love These people.

[Alex]

Let me just put to you this. Let me put to you this way.

[Zach]

When.

[Alex]

When there was very few people in the. In the state of Georgia and we showed up on the scene, we were given land by the governor Ogle for and we settled in Ebenezer and pretty much created what you experienced in the whole state.

[Zach]

Isn't there a song about my Ebenezer in there? Old song about Ebenezer.

[Alex]

I raised my Ebenezer I raised my Ebenezer. We probably wrote that song. That's probably a Dasher song.

[Zach]

I hope the list Zach has found something Jay's that he. He thinks has made the Dasher name.

[Alex]

Hey, we got a town Jace in Geor named Dasher, Georgia right outside of Valdosta. I mean, this is like the real deal.

[Jace]

That's not my problem. My problem is you're talking about this like I've heard this before. I've never heard this.

[Zach]

How do you miss it? You weren't listening because he said it before on the podcast. I think you did mention it on the Hillsdale.

[Jace]

I think that's the deal. I'll do. We do multiple, multiple podcasts. So here's what happened. Here's the price of fame. When you become famous, there's a lot of people who claim to be family members to the point of. Now, when I hear that, I don't even acknowledge it. So my assistant, Mrs. Aunt, she. She tells me she saw your cousin has lined up this event. And I thought, I don't have any cousins in Georgia.

[Zach]

But you did.

[Jace]

No, I didn't even acknowledge it. And so this guy comes and picks us up at the, at the airport hotel. Yeah. And when he started talking, I thought, do I know this guy? You know, but then he started talking about how we're cousins. Yeah. But he was dropping the right names. And I thought, because I remember my. Unfortunately we've told you about my grandma and you know, she's with the Lord now, but she had a period of time of a couple of decades where she was experiencing some mental illness. But she got cured before she died. She did. So it's a positive thing. But one of the things she used to do when she would have her crazy moments is she would name her names, which you think Most people have three names.

[Zach]

She had 10.

[Jace]

Yeah, she had like 10. And I don't know, people were married, you know, before in her history. And but one of the names that, that she would use sometimes was Ad Cock. And so when he was talking about the Ad Cock family, I was like, well, Maybe we are cousins, which I didn't want to tell him. Look, I've heard that our tree doesn't have a lot of forks, but I didn't say that because he was excited.

[Zach]

This was actually our grandpa's sister's grandson or great grandson.

[Jace]

I'm not sure. Yeah. So there you go. But look, here's. Here's what I want to tell you. Ten minutes into that conversation, we didn't have to do a DNA test, you know. Oh yeah, yeah.

[Zach]

It was there.

[Jace]

It was like he had the gift of gab. He had the rhymes and the stories. I mean there was a lot of sigh in there.

[Zach]

Did he ever tell you he reached out to me that I'm the reason that that all came together?

[Jace]

You never came up. And he just thought we're cousins.

[Zach]

Once again, Zach, I make it all happen, but nobody ever knows. It's just by happening.

[Jace]

Didn't know it, but. So that was fantastic. Fascinating. Cuz then I thought and he's just. He was crazy.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

You know, I was like I. Cuz we. We had to get up 4 o' clock in the morning to get over there.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

And I had to spend seven hours in a hotel room. Which now look, those seven hours were awesome because I went down a rabbit hole that I want to talk about today that I found fascinating. Look, it. It was a rabbit hole in a rabbit hole. I went down one and I.

[Zach]

In a hotel room.

[Jace]

Well, but then I thought about that because when you hear I was alone seven hours in a hotel room, usually that starts off in some kind of.

[Zach]

Usually it fixed to have a confession

[Jace]

12 step program where it's rabbit holes and rabbit holes.

[Alex]

It sounds like a mushroom trip or something. That sounds kind of.

[Jace]

But. So I'll give you some advice. When you find yourself alone.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Jace]

Seven hours in the hotel room, pull out your bible. Have you a Bible? It was fantastic. So anyway, so I'm there seven hours. He could have picked me up at any time during the day. So when he picks me up, I was like, look, I had any sleep, I need some coffee. And I was like, find a near Starbucks. Not because, you know, I'm a big supporter of Starbucks, but they have a concoction that if you combine with the Holy Spirit of God, it'll make you not sleepy. Let's put it that way.

[Zach]

Oh yeah.

[Jace]

Well, this guy's our cousin Al. So guess what? He don't know where Starbucks is. So he types it into this voice that everybody thinks is real. It's not a real human. We Gallivant across all these communities in Georgia. We never were on a main road. We wind up at a Kroger grocery store. Yeah. And he's like, where's the Starbucks? Well, I looked on that. I was like, it's in the store. In the grocery store.

[Zach]

That's right.

[Jace]

Who does this? And he said, well, let me go in. I was like, but you don't know what I want. And they don't know what they sell. And he's like, what do you mean? He's like, what do you want? I said, well, they don't. Nobody consumes. I said, there were two people on the planet who consumed this drink. Now.

[Zach]

There's three now, but yes.

[Jace]

Oh, you do?

[Zach]

I do as well.

[Jace]

So Al. Okay, Well, I misspoke. 3 and 1. I said, 1 of them's no longer on the planet physically, which is my dad. But you put two shots in a short cup with just a shot of black.

[Zach]

Pour over is the official name for it. But they don't all get it.

[Jace]

Yeah. And I've had multiple people when I've been on a trip try this and they. They take one sip and then I'm watching them. They're like, oh yeah, that. That's interesting. They never go back.

[Zach]

It's so good.

[Jace]

Somebody hits you between the eyes. What it's. I need wound up being late because late to the event and I'm looking, I was like, it's my cousin.

[Zach]

So you threw him under the bus.

[Jace]

Crazy junkie. But he is awesome. His wife was more awesome. And so it was fantastic. They ripped 300 people through there in about 40 minutes because we had a one hour meet and greet. But we were late 15 minutes to

[Zach]

get your coffee, so.

[Jace]

But you know what I noticed? Not one person didn't have a smile on their face. That's why I said I was just. So does these people or the salty. They are. And we're excited. It was sold out.

[Zach]

Georgia is amazing. By the way. I'm going to Madison and Dalton later this year and. You went to Dalton, didn't you? Oh, I did, yeah. That's where Triple J's carpet.

[Jace]

That's the carpet capital of the world.

[Zach]

It is. I'm going there myself.

[Jace]

Get you going. A little magic carpet ride. So anyway, and look when I get up to speak, actually when I walked out, cuz I. I slay. I want to get a vibe for this because if they had me back in the green room, you know, fix to go out. But I walked out and they were doing what's that song. I forgot that name. I got it on my play.

[Zach]

Not Tom Petty.

[Jace]

Oh, no. That would have been funny.

[Zach]

I figured that would have gotten around.

[Jace]

But I know who I am. What is that? So I know who I am. It's a really good song.

[Zach]

It's a worship song.

[Jace]

It's a worship song. Well, it's. It was made for more, Josh. Made for more. That's a good song.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

So I was just kind of moved. It was. I mean, it's a men's event, but about 30 or 40 women that slipped in the back. I saw that they were all standing against the wall, and I got up, Look. I looked down, and they had brought in a portable Baptistry with water in it.

[Zach]

Wow.

[Jace]

And I asked the pastor later or someone, and I was like, where'd that idea came from? And they said, one of your podcast listeners recommended it. Which turned out great because after I spoke, which the. The pastor said, do you want to baptize the people? But he was going to do, like, a little altar call. I was like, leaving.

[Zach]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jace]

And I was like, no, no, no. Because I don't want to be a distraction, you know? And I was like, I wanted to get into. There's a whole chapter about people putting their faith in the people doing the Baptist baptizing.

[Alex]

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[Zach]

Yeah. In my case, I have four that are waiting to be planted. They're still in their pots, but they look fantastic.

[Jace]

Oh, this was pretty easy. Made me look like, you know, a genius. They came in the mail, I took them out of the box, walked out there, dug a hole, bam. Look up at her, and she's like, oh, you're my hero.

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[Zach]

When I was studying two John that or third John, that name came up again, which we'll get into later. Gaius.

[Jace]

Yeah, yeah. So anyway, but then I later learned that two people responded to be baptized and they, they were like, we're gonna, we got some change of clothes here. And they're like, oh no. Just now as is, we'll drive home wet.

[Zach]

I like it.

[Jace]

I thought, now we're talking. So it was a fantastic event. It really charged my battery just, they were just fired up for Jesus. And it was fantastic. So I did that. Now while I was in the hotel room, we had left this cliffhanger about the sin that leads to death.

[Zach]

Yeah. That's the last thing we haven't covered in First John.

[Jace]

Well, now we have another thing we haven't covered because I went down that road going to research it because I wasn't sure. Sure what my answer was going to be for that.

[Zach]

Yep.

[Jace]

Because there's multiple options.

[Zach]

It's an odd phrase.

[Jace]

Well, yeah. And we'll read the text.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

But it just, I saw, I started studying about it and it led me to a different direction that I think we probably should have talked about earlier in. In John and I listened to multiple, multiple sermons and I did lots of research on the Greek language and all, but really the rabbit hole was just discussing sin itself because in our culture we basically look at everything through a guilt and innocence, a legal view when it comes to sin. Although if you look at the definition of sin now I'm going to do a test here. What is the ultimate definition of sin that I would say most people agree on, if not all. When the scholars get involved and they look at the word sin in Hebrew and Greek, what is the little phrase that most people, the number one phrase Probably.

[Zach]

And you get it out of this text.

[Alex]

Missed the mark.

[Jace]

What he said.

[Zach]

Yeah, miss the mark.

[Jace]

Missed the mark. It was like an archery term. There's a. There's a target, there's a bullseye, and we miss it.

[Zach]

Right.

[Jace]

So think, like, for all have sinned and fall short, miss the mark of the glory of God.

[Zach]

And that's Romans 3:23.

[Jace]

Yeah. So don't you think that's interesting, that. But we think guilt, innocence. So somewhere.

[Zach]

Well, one of them is. We get from first John when it says, everyone who sins breaks the law. That was always a big phra when we were growing up.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Therefore, if you. When you sin, it's when you break the law.

[Jace]

So we usually think, okay, and look, we. If that's all it is, think of all the negative things that happen because of that, because then that's why people have a tendon tendency to say, well, where's the line? You know, what can I do? What are the rules? It's like where, you know, when you play a game that you've never played, first question you ask is, what are the rules?

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

Because you want to see where can I? And I want to get right up to that line.

[Zach]

Oh, sure.

[Jace]

Especially when you start talking about sin, and you have some verses that say, like Galatians 5:19, says, the acts of the sinful flesh are obvious.

[Zach]

And then it lists a bunch of

[Jace]

them, has all these. These lists. And all these different Bible passages have these lists. And we see ourselves in the list.

[Zach]

We're like, oh, is it first Thessalonians that says sin is lawlessness? That's another.

[Jace]

Sin is lawlessness. And when you think about me being freed from sin through Jesus, through the blood of Jesus, what does that exactly mean? So that's kind of where I started. And. But what I realized is, through this venture is there's also in. In most cultures not named America or the United States, they have more of a shame and honor view of sin.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

And. And you think, well, what is the difference? And this. These letters were written with that backdrop in their culture, which it makes a lot of the verses and stories that you read. When it's about sin, actually, it brings a lot more to life. And I'm not saying it's an either or. I think it's a both. And because shame and honor is more about the relationship aspect of when you miss the mark. So think like when. When Jesus said, no one gives to the Father except through me, well, that's a relationship. We're. We're the Way to the Father.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

And just think about how we started in First John 1, where it says our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son, Jesus Christ, and how many times it causes children in here. This is a relationship oriented shame and honor type of thing. You want to bring glory to God and just think about in your relationships. So, so like in their situation, kind of like Luke 15, this son, he's like, I'm leaving. And so, all right, well, you're dishonored. You're, you're take off. And when he comes back, you know, the father. And that was kind of them having the meal was part of that restoration process.

[Zach]

Well, and even the fact that he, the father in the story, gives him the end, gives him his inheritance, which is interesting because we would look at it to your point from a legal perspective. So. Well, he didn't have to give it to him, which he didn't, I don't guess.

[Jace]

But he did. But he did.

[Zach]

And because what does that represent? Exactly.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Jace]

And then what's the brother's problem? The older brother's problem? Oh, no, he. Now you see his set of problems because he can't experience the joy of that relationship being welcome because he's looking at the honor thing. He's like, I've honored you the whole time I've been here. The whole. And that's what we get into about the relationship aspect.

[Zach]

And then he tells him, he tells him when he was angry with him with the dad, he said he squandered what was mine. I mean, that was his mindset, right?

[Alex]

Yeah. I like the phrase is helpful to miss the mark when you talk about sin. The problem is, is that if you grew up like we grew up, it was. We had much more of a transactional view of the gospel, probably growing up. Al, you'd mentioned before the podcast even like the, you know, we had a very legal way that we viewed the Bible.

[Zach]

Yeah, we came, we came out of a group called the Restoration Movement, which was in the mid-1850s, and it was led by some guys that were actually attorneys that were mainly into British law because, you know, you remember, we weren't that old as a country. And so, like, it was a very transactional legal approach to the Bible and to, you know, the way we look at our lives.

[Jace]

I think that's why I'm so relationship oriented when I read, because I remember when all that came up, even when we went to Bible school, Al. And I was like, what do they keep talking about these people in the 1800s.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

And and really, I remember when I got angry one time when a. When a. One of the Bible teachers was doing a, you know, one hour, boring. His class.

[Zach]

One of our classes was about this thing. Yeah.

[Jace]

And I'll never forget this, because his approach, he said, you know, how we study the Bible is three. There's three things you have to consider.

[Zach]

And these guys came up with this.

[Jace]

Yeah, it was

[Zach]

command.

[Jace]

Yeah. Oh, y' all knew where I was.

[Alex]

Command, example, and necessary.

[Jace]

Is there a command about it?

[Zach]

Yep.

[Jace]

Is there an example of it. Of it happening? Or is there a necessary inference, which I didn't even know what that meant. That I was 21 years old.

[Zach]

That's the one that gets really tricky.

[Jace]

And I thought, where's that at? But that's coming from what you said, because I remember hearing this. All these guys were lawyers, and they were like, this is how you read the Bible. And I thought, no wonder this place is so stuffy.

[Zach]

We've had quite a few dogs growing up, but I think probably Gabe stands

[Jace]

out as he was my favorite dog. Smartest dog I've ever known. And, you know, I wish we'd have known about Ruff Greens back then, Al. Maybe he wouldn't have died so quickly.

[Zach]

Yeah, he didn't. He was like a comet. He came fast and he left fast, but he was just, you know, he's part chow, part lab.

[Alex]

He saved Jeff's life.

[Zach]

Saved Jeff's life. Would looked out for us, really. I mean, he was almost like an extra parent. And so, you know, you think back over your life, you think about your pets and the ones that you love, and you wish you had a product like Rough Greens, because what we didn't know back in the day is that most dog foods don't have the live nutrients that your dogs need. Therefore, it's a dead food. And they need something that can use some probiotics and enzymes that can bring life. And that's what Ruff Greens does. It's all natural. It's made right here in the US you sprinkle it on their food, so you're literally bringing it to life. It's America's number one dog supplement. The probiotics, the enzymes, the omega oils, 20 live vitamins and minerals that are going to help with their digestion, their energy, their overall health. And it's amazing because it does bring life back, even when dogs get older. Alex's dog, meatball, is a 12 now, and so, you know, she's having a hard time with her joints, but since we started feeding her rough Greens. She's definitely doing better. Thousands of people are seeing their dogs that more like themselves again and you could be one of them. So we want you to get a free Jump Start trial bag for your dog. You just cover the shipping by going to ruffgreens.com use the discount code unashamed. That's R U F F greens.com discount code unashamed. Rough Greens makes any dog food better.

[Alex]

But here's what's interesting about it that my brother Grant sent me an article a few years ago that one of his friends wrote who was getting a Zimdev or PhD from Harding, which is a Church of Christ restoration movement school where I graduated from. And he was, he had found this debate between these two because the guy who started the Church of Christ was a Alexander Campbell. And then what was the other guy? Barton Stone.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

And.

[Alex]

And so Campbell was kind of the main guy. And so he was a student of John Locke. That was the British, you know, John, if you remember like from history, John Locke was the pivotal philosopher and, and did a lot of great things. I mean Locke was great in a lot of ways. A lot of ways he wasn't. He wrote the book Treatise of Two Governments. It's one of the reasons why we have America, right? The whole contract theory, social contract theory. He also started the French Revolution because Jean Jacques Rousseau also studied under lock as well studied his work. But anyways, so these two guys are having a debate. One of the guys name was Tolbert Fanning who lived in Nashville and he was the editor, I think, of a paper up there, I can't. The Gospel Advocate or something. And then the other guy, his name was Richardson. And so they were debating back and forth over this very topic. And Richardson was like, look, we got an issue like in the churches of Christ or what, I don't know what it was called back then. We got the issue in that like we've kind of removed participation in the life of God out of the whole thing. We've turned it into brute facts. And Fanning really pushed back hard and they had this fierce debate and it kind of boiled down to like the Holy Spirit. What is the role of the Spirit? And Campbell, when he was asked to weigh in on this, he was like, look, you know, the main thing is keep the hermeneutic. That's the main thing. Which is what Jace just mentioned. The hermeneutic goes, we're just going to read the Bible through the lens of is it commanded? Is there an example of it? And is there a necessary Inference. So the way we would have read the Bible would have been like a rule book. So to miss the mark would mean that I missed the. I didn't follow the rules. There was instructions on what I was supposed to do, and I didn't do my job. And so then what that. I mean, that just leads to all kind of issues, by the way. I think the. The better way of understanding what it means to miss the mark is it's. The mark is where the whole thing terminates, right? Like you're shooting an arrow and where is this thing going? What's the point? Where's it supposed to land? And if you deviate from that end point, then you've missed the mark. Well, what is the end point? The endpoint is to experience the presence of God. That's the end point. So to miss the mark is to miss that. I think it's helpful to reframe our definition of sin, because a lot of us, even if you didn't grow up kind of with that Lockean or there's another guy named Francis Bacon that played into this as well. If you didn't grow up with that view, you probably still grew up with some type of human performance view of the gospel.

[Zach]

And think about, Zach, how it compares to our own legal system. You have law, you have precedent, and then you have spirit of the law, they call it, which is where you're trying to keep it in the realm of it, but what it was really intended for. And then we get into all sorts of stuff, right? So it's very similar to the way even our legal structure is in our. In our society.

[Jace]

It's so true. And look, there's a lot of people. I mean, even they'll name their church Bible Church, or, you know, I'm not picking on anybody that has that in their name, but I'm just saying. But then they'll give sermons, and they're like, we're just going to study the Bible. And then in that sermon, there'll be 17 quotes from these lawyers who broke away from, you know, the Catholic church in the 17, 1800s. And I'm like, what book did this guy write? I'm always, to this day skeptical when people put up quotes. And I know Zach does this all the time. He'll say, somebody said, but if he's not in this book, then I think, oh, that's cool. But he could be wrong. You know, usually they're not. Usually we agree with it. But I'm like, why do we do that? Because just think how many sermons you Hear. And they're like, we stick to the Bible and these 17 quotes from some guy who's not in the Bible. That was in 1700. This is what he said. Not saying that's wrong, but it just.

[Zach]

Because to be fair, I mean, someone quoted you this last weekend at the event I was at. It doesn't mean. I mean, I think he was right about what you said, but it was the way you turned the phrase that attention. So, I mean, they even quote us.

[Jace]

But in this context, here's why this was an epiphany for me. Because first, John, there's things that are difficult when it comes to sin that are confusing. And I said that when we started this book. Is it susceptible? Let's just read the text. I'll put this into practical. Because a lot of you maybe say, well, y' all hadn't even read the text yet. So I'll read it. This is First John 5, starting in verse 13. Yeah, and we'll read a little bit and then we'll go back and read where this started. But it says in First John 5, 13, I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, which, by the way, name is another honor reference to in the Jewish heritage. That name meant way more. Now we got that Al as, because my parents were really big into that. I remember him like, hey, I'd get in trouble at school. And he's like, your last name is Robertson. Nobody named Robertson who's part of the family of God is going to operate that. He didn't just go. He went, shame and honor. He was like, you're a child of God. We have a name after he's whooped my butt for whatever it happened. And then he went. So I got the penalty, and then I got the honor and shame. And he would bring up our name. So believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God. To your point, Zach, the presence of God, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have what we asked of him. If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death. So there's the verse that you're like, wait, I thought all sin leads to death. I mean, you immediately stop and just lose your mind. He should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those who sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to Death. I'm not saying that he should pray about that. I don't think he's saying, don't pray about that. He was just saying, my point is, if you see somebody commit a sin that doesn't lead to death, you know, pray for them. All wrongdoing is sin. So he now has realized this is confusing. So let me be clear. All wrongdoing. Missing the mark is missing the mark. And there is a sin that does not lead to death. So that's why, you see, I went down this rabbit hole, because then it really made me look at what sin is in its complete form. And it's not only, I guess, behavior or doing something that's written that's wrong, or doing something that in your conscience, you know is wrong, but it's also doing something that is contrary to the person who came up with the law because he's good. There's a relational aspect of this. That's why when you fast forward through all this and get to the end of the matter, which I'll do, just because this is why this is important. If you have the Holy Spirit and you read something like Galatians 5, there's way more a relational component in there. Because when he's like, the acts of the sinful nature, obvious, and they list them all, he's like, but the fruit of the Spirit. And then it's love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. And it's like, against such things, there is no law. And then it's like, keep in step with the Spirit. What does that mean? You're in this relational aspect of that. And so I think it's both. And I really think if you focus on the honor shame aspect, it will help you identify and have meaning to some of the more difficult passages. So that is a difficult passage, and we'll talk about it. But think of where this started. So if you go to 1 John 1, 4, and I've already 3 and 4, I've already read this, and probably the verse that we've read the most throughout this, that he said, we have been included in this fellowship not only with each other, but our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. Which now makes sense of why Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount and all these different occasions when they asked him questions about the law, which sin is breaking the law, as you said. And what did he say? He said, it's all summed up with loving God and loving your neighbor.

[Alex]

When you think back on your life, is there anything about your mom that you're like you know what? I took that for granted, and now I fully understand what she went through.

[Zach]

Well, I think in my case, my mom really was the compassionate part of the her and dad's tag team. And so I think I probably always took her compassion for granted because if it wasn't for that, then the rest of us would have zero compassion. But luckily we got some from her.

[Alex]

Yeah, moms really do deserve an upgrade this year from the traditional flowers for Mother's Day. That's why our frames are such a great and meaningful gift, because it's something that doesn't fade after a few days on the counter and wither away. It's a way to keep your memories showing up every single day. And what our frames does is it gives you unlimited storage, so there's always room to keep adding more photos and videos. You can add personal messages to your frame, which makes it feel thoughtful right from the start. And it comes ready to get in a premium box with no pricing shown anywhere. Perfect for those who aren't so great at gift wrapping. Missy, she gives these out to all the family. I think she's given them to all your family members. Right?

[Jace]

It's the gift that keeps on giving. Yeah. It's a way for us all to connect and especially her parents can stay in the loop without having to travel. And it's awesome.

[Alex]

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[Jace]

There's the honor shame aspect of it. And if you don't believe that's real, if your neighbor sins against you, what happens? There's shame, there's embarrassment. The relationship is broken. And so what I think is helpful, maybe before I read the rest of this first, John, I just looked up on artificial intelligence, the difference in these cultures that are led when it comes to law, sin, rule breaking. And let me just give you what it spit out here. In the honor shame culture, the focus is maintaining group reputation and representing face in quotations within a community. So it's like, hey, what are you doing? You're making us all look bad kind of thing. Not to mention this is not godly. Their identity is defined by status. Who you are, your family, your ethnicity group, rather than just what you do. Conflict resolution relies on social and relational networks. Aggression or symbolic gestures like shared meals are used to restore honor if it is damaged. That's why I brought that up. Communication, often indirect to avoid public embarrassment or loss of face for either party. There's the shame. So in the law courtroom system, the focus is adhering to absolute standards or laws. Breaking a rule results in personal guilt and or punishment. Identity defined by achieved status, individual performance and interest. That's why so many pastors talk about this. It's not by your words because they're looking at everything through that, that system. You know you can't earn your way. Identity is by chief status. Conflict resolution relies on impartial judge or jury who applies the law to the facts of a case to determine who is right or wrong. It's just all black and white communication. Typically direct and factual honesty and getting to the point are highly valued. So I mean even if you confess your sins, so you read a verse like that, confess your sins so that you'll be healed. And I think when you look at this concept of using both of these, because once you see this, you will never unsee it. It's kind of like what we say, like I'll give you a phrase like all the things sin happens when you sin. The first one on the list, we usually say sin separates you from God. And it does, but it separates you from God. But if you look at the Bible story, go back to the garden. Well, they sinned. And what happens here he comes walking. And what are they doing?

[Zach]

Hiding.

[Jace]

They're hiding. Well, he's coming, they're hiding, they're in shame. And that's why I brought up to Luke 15. What does the Father do when the Son comes back? He's on the road, he runs to him.

[Zach]

He's coming to him.

[Jace]

And so I think you see God is wanting to reconcile and that gets into that honor shame background that they were writing these letters to about missing the mark. But there is a penalty and there is a price. The Bible is filled with that. We have that down pat. That's why Jesus died. That is important and we shouldn't sugarcoat that. But I'm saying when you get to something like one John and I just read that he's invited us into this fellowship, well then he gets into these, these kind of relationship passages. So look what he says. In First John 1, verse 6, if we claim to have fellowship with him, yet walk in the darkness, will we lie and do not live by the truth?

[Zach]

Right.

[Jace]

You see, this is to a person. That's why if it's just the law, if it's just a list of rules, you're taking out all the relational, emotional components of that. That's why so many people, when they come to Christ, they struggle with still having the shame of what they did. Because it all was transactional. Oh, you understand? Jesus died for me. He was raised. I'm going to give my life. But then you still, because sin stains you, there's scars.

[Zach]

It's why you can't get to healing without the truth. From your James quote, you can't get there without truth. And that's why he mentions truth here. I tell you a perfect illustration of this. Jess. I was driving in this morning and they were talking about the new Michael Jackson biopic that's out. And so the guy says there's a little bit of controversy because they've left out anything scandalous about Michael Jackson in the movie. And it's just about his music career, just all the good things about that you love about Michael Jackson. And so the guy, this is just a DJ or whatever, but he's like, he's like, I mean, what do you think about that? Do you think that's a fair way to look at his life or just to highlight the good stuff? And here's the line he said that got my attention. It's interesting we're talking about this. He said, because, you know, he was never convicted of anything.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Zach]

So that was his line. His line was, it's okay for them to make a movie about only good things in his life and none of the scandalous stuff that really shamed him while he was here. So it was like, because he was, I mean, technically he was never convicted. Well then I did a little bit of research the other day, just because it came up about the movie and the director, I think was the director of the producers, they put in an extra, I think it was $25 million into production to keep this out, just to give them a little incentive. And so I thought to myself, this is how the world looks at it. We wax over shame and a lack of truth by just providing money. Which by the way, is how Michael Jackson never got arrested and never got in trouble because they just bought people off. They just basically paid people for non disclosure. And so I thought that's, that's the satanic answer. No truth but you just live in the shame. And then you just don't talk about it. Then you just act like it never happened.

[Jace]

Well, it's like when O.J. was declared innocent. Well, by our. If that's all you had to go on. Man didn't do it. Right. He was set free.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

You believe that? See, if there's no relationship with God knowing the truth, then there's no justice in that. It falls short. Because people, that's what they do when there's a law. And look, I'm saying they. Me too. You try to justify yourself in keeping the law, but if you don't, if you're not adhering to the spirit of the law, that there is a God and his spirit is in you, you're not going to hoodwink God.

[Zach]

No.

[Jace]

You're not going to trick him. You're not going to rationalize it away. So it is. It leads to that relationship where the Holy Spirit is living in you. And that's why verses like 1 John 3, when it said God knows our hearts because he knows everything. Well, that's a game changer.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jace]

That's why this suddenly starts making sense when you read that. Because the verse that comes after this first John 5, 18, we know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin. Well, is that not true? Right. Doesn't make sense.

[Zach]

No.

[Jace]

You're like, well, how is. How is that. If you just read that verse on its own, you would think that can't be right because I've been born of God and I've sinned.

[Zach]

Right.

[Jace]

So he echoed the same thing in First John 1 when he says, if we claim. This is 1 John 1:8. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth's not in us. So. Well, which is it? Right. If you claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth's not in us. The next verse, if we confess our sins, he's faithful and just and will forgive us. Well, anyone born of God doesn't continue to sin. Well, how could I be confessing if I don't have any sin? And that's why I'm saying if you just have a legal view of this, it will never make sense. But if you have the legal view and the relational view, you realize that, oh, yeah, you're messing up. And then that's where I'm getting to this verse. These are sins that, that do not lead to death because Jesus is life, you are in Christ, which is the code that unlocks the New Testament, I am in Christ. He knows my heart. I'm having discussions with him. He knows I messed up. I'm being perfectly honest about it. It's not leading to death because I'm in Jesus, who is life.

[Alex]

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[Zach]

Being a part of our family's business, which started back in the 70s, it would have been great to have something that NetSuite that plans for your growth and how, as you grow, what you're going to need for your business.

[Alex]

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[Jace]

yeah.

[Zach]

And you think about what are, what are the results? What does it look like when you get to the end? Because, you know, we all have a certain number of days. And to use my illustration that I'd already used, do you want to be 50 years old and you die of a drug overdose, which is apparently what you've been using, Try to medicate the hole in your life or whatever you've been unable to feel? Or do you want a end of your life where people are gathered around your bed and saying, man, this is the crossover to the great resurrection and we feel confident. All these verses of confidence you see in this text. And so I think at the end of. Not only the day, but the end of our lives. I mean, isn't that what we strive for? Isn't that what we want? Instead of dying in shame and worried about, you know, are they going to tell the true story about my life or are they going to cover it up? So I just. I think that's the way we have to live. That's the comparison that I see. I mean, does that make sense? I mean, like, when you look at it, who we are, that's the way you want it to be, right?

[Alex]

Yeah. I think the, The. The definition of sin is important and the definition of salvation, because what we want to do is we want to reduce salvation to just that legal component, which it is part. I'm glad you. You said that.

[Jace]

It is.

[Alex]

There is a legal thing going on, and the, the word for that in the Bible is called justification. So when you're justified before God, you're not counted guilty in a legal sense. Justice has been served, and the penalty, the payment's been paid. Everything's equal, everything's good to go. You guys are squared up. Go.

[Jace]

And Zach, he says that in First John 2 when he says, if anybody sins, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense, which is, look, that's. How many times have we used that? And one of the sermons I listened to said that. Said, how many times do we say we're all doomed to hell, we've all sinned, but luckily we got a good lawyer because we're looking at it from the legal standpoint, and that's where we're getting this. But from the relational aspect, then he says, Jesus Christ, the righteous one, he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world, which includes that not only the legal status being taken care of, but also an offer to the whole world as God's humans who were made in his image to be invited into the family. Sorry I interrupted you, Zach.

[Alex]

Well, yeah, man, that's a good point. I mean that the word atonement, he's the atoning sacrifice. And, you know, I understand there's the. Some people. I do understand this. I'll say this like there has been a big debate over what atonement means. I do understand the pushback against preachers and teachers who only teach that Christ's death was a transaction, meaning that it was a payment. Like, it's much more than that. But it is that. But it's much more than that. And I think that's where the other part of salvation comes in. Because the Bible also has another word for salvation called sanctification. And that's different than justification because we're justified and this is agreed upon by everybody. I don't know why we have to divide on, because everybody agrees with this, like justification is in the Bible. And it just means that you're, you've been freed from the, the penalty of sin. So the way I remember is the three Ps of salvation. Sanctification is I've been freed from the power or the grip of sin over me. So if we understand sin to be a misdirected desire or a misappropriated or a wrongly indexed affection, that's another way of saying it, meaning that I want something that actually is going to lead to my death instead of wanting what's going to lead to life, which is Christ. If that's what sin is, then to be freed from the power of sin means that my, that my desires are being rightly indexed. I'm starting to want the right things. I'm starting to want God. I'm starting to desire God. And that's a progressive thing that happens over the life span of a Christian on this side of eternity. And that's called sanctification. And then there's a third component to our salvation that the Bible talks about, which is a word called glorification. And glorification is what we're hoping for. That's the not yet. We haven't experienced that yet. What is that going to be? Well, that's going to be a freedom from the presence of sin. Well now it won't even be possible in light of God's glorious revelation of himself. Philippians chapter two. It's going to be impossible one day for us to believe that satisfaction can come from anyone other than God. It won't even be possible for you to believe it. And so that's the hope of our life in heaven, or I say when the new heavens and the new earth are brought together, is that it won't even be a possibility for you to be able to miss the mark. And here's why. Because the mark will be God himself. And he will be so obvious in the revelation of his glory and his goodness that you will see and taste that the Lord is good and that will fundamentally redeem and, and, and correct all, all of our taste buds and all of our desires. And we will be at one with him. As I think that's the part that first John is, is trying to draw out. Because when you read When. When you read this in First John 5 about how we know we love God, it's that we understand that his commandments, they're not a burden. They're not a burden.

[Zach]

Yeah. And everything you just described is clearly laid out starting in Romans 5, 6, 7, and 8. If you read those four chapters, it clearly lays out what Zach just said. I mean, the idea of the purpose of justification, sanctification through the spirit and then also glorification.

[Jace]

Well, I know we only have a couple minutes, so let's answer the question. So the sin that leads to death, in my opinion, within the context of this, where there was a group of people saying that Jesus did not come in human form. Right. That's what this whole thing was. That's been the underlying thing called them anti Jesus. And I do think it's interesting that the Last verse in 21 says, Keep yourselves away from idols. So my point is, if Jesus is life and you're in Jesus and he's continually forgiven our sins because we understand this relational thing, we're wanting to bring honor to him. We're connected. It's not like a set of rules that we're following and we're off doing our own thing. Oh, no. We're connected to the creator of the universe through His Holy Spirit that's in us. Jesus is our Lord. We're in constant conversation through prayer and other means, meditation, whatever, fasting, things like that. So I just believe that that's what he's talking about. It's like if somebody didn't even believe in Jesus, I mean, I think it's okay to pray for him, because that was kind of not his point. But I just, I really, you know, I know some people say it's idolatry because you're. You're praying to a different God other than the God of this good book. So that's my thought.

[Zach]

Well, and. And I've got a thought, but I'm going to save mine for the next

[Jace]

podcast because I think having Cliffhanger number two.

[Zach]

Cliffhanger number two, because you've set it up perfectly on why I think it's the. It's the power source is what he's talking about. So I'll tell you. I'll give you my opinion next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.