Ep 1327 | Theo Von Posed a Viral Question about Life—Jase Robertson Has an Answer

Summary

Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Ep 1327 | Theo Von Posed a Viral Question about Life—Jase Robertson Has an Answer
May 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Robertson family—Jase, Jay, Zach, and others—dive deep into personal and theological territory, blending humorous family stories with profound spiritual reflection. Sparked by a viral question from comedian Theo Von about personal transformation and the desire to be healed, the conversation centers on themes of faith, the source of spiritual power, and the deep meaning of “sin that leads to death.” The episode moves from stories of duck calls and family mishaps to robust discussions on biblical passages, inviting listeners to reflect on their own spiritual journeys and the role of authentic transformation in faith.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Duck Calls, Family Legacy, and Humility

• [01:03–10:57]

• Jase recounts speaking at an event in Hebron, Kentucky (ironically the "Cincinnati airport"), where he’s asked to perform duck calls—a tradition as a Robertson, but also his personal bane.
• The crew jokes about the genetics and skill of blowing a mallard hen call—some people have it, some don’t:

  "There's no amount of instruction that will help you. It's kind of like golf...you have to feel it." —Jay [03:16]

• Jase admits his struggles go back to his teens, poking fun at the family pressure, feelings of inadequacy, and his creative workarounds (wood duck instead of mallard).
• The conversation likens this unique skill gap to the broader idea of innate talents and humility—even within a legacy family:

  "It's like, I'm not even...you're not...because I'm not a Robertson." —Jase [05:31]

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2. Skill, Practice, and the ‘Click’ of Mastery

• [12:20–14:52]

• Transitioning from duck calls to hoverboards and skiing, Zach tells the story of never mastering the hoverboard (and ending up in the ER).
• The crew laughs about certain skills simply not “clicking” for everyone.
• This sets up a metaphor for deeper questions about gifts, calling, and personal limitations in faith and life.

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3. Theo Von’s Viral Question: Do You Want to Be Healed?

• [15:19–18:19]

• Zach introduces a recently viral Instagram clip from comedian Theo Von, which profoundly struck him.
• Theo recounts being struck by John 5—Jesus’ question at the pool of Bethesda: “Do you want to be healed?” He admits he’s unsure if he truly wants change:

  “If I get healed, then I'm different. You know, if somebody gets healed, they have a new story…It's like, do I want to be healed? Do I really Want something different...sometimes a lot of the answer is no.” —Theo Von (Guest Clip) [17:19]

• The Robertsons reflect on the honesty and vulnerability of Theo’s admission, highlighting the universality of that struggle with transformation:

  “That's a kindred spirit there…somebody that's searching for a new story.” —Zach [18:48]

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4. Living Into the Story: Participation in Christ, Not Transaction

• [18:48–24:01]

• Zach ties Theo’s comments to C.S. Lewis’ journey—conversion not through argument alone but by embracing the story and person of Christ.
• The discussion turns to John 5 and related passages: healing, confession, and community.

  “Sin tends to...bring loneliness, detachment. There's a relational aspect.” —Jay [20:24]

• They stress that church should be about authentic relationships and mutual support, not just rule-following.

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5. Sin that Leads to Death: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit & Idolatry

• [30:52–38:32]

• Jase brings up the infamous “sin that leads to death” in 1 John, connecting it to Jesus’ warnings about “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” in the Synoptic Gospels.
• He argues both refer to rejecting the only source of spiritual life—the Holy Spirit—and thus, salvation.

  “You can't deny part of the Godhead and still think you're okay with the other part of the Godhead.” —Jase [33:48]

• The crew discusses idolatry as replacing the source of life with anything else—be it literal idols or “good” things misapplied (like returning to the Law or making credit cards a priority).

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6. Community, Confession, and Redemption Stories

• [24:01–55:12*; with recurring theme]

• Jay shares a touching story about encouraging Big Jim, his older mentor, and the power of affirmation late in life.
• They discuss the role of 12-step groups in Christian redemption, emphasizing the need for surrender, honesty, and community:

  “You're not going to be able to do this by yourself. It’s surrender first.” —Jase [52:25]

• Sharing community and confessing, rather than hiding, is a repeated theme—the antidote to the loneliness and shame of sin.

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7. Reflections on Hebrews 6 and Assurance

• [43:18–48:42]

• The group tackles the anxiety provoked by Hebrews 6 (“If they fall away, to be brought back to repentance...”), especially for those who fear losing salvation.
• Zach clarifies: it's not that God won’t take you back; it's that if you totally reject Christ and the Spirit, there is nowhere else to turn—no other “medicine”:

  “If life in Christ doesn't do it for you, there's no thing greater. Everything is centered in the death and the resurrection of Christ.” —Zach [47:17]

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8. Purpose and Image: The Real Problem of Sin

• [42:05–57:32]

• Jay muses that humans are “functioning idols”—made to reflect God, but when we aren’t, we miss our purpose.
• Sin isn’t just rule-breaking, it’s a failure to image God:

  “While you’re committing that sin, you’re not doing what you should be doing...You’re missing your purpose.” —Jay [43:07]

• They reflect on how legalism misses the relational, transformative heart of faith.

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9. Redemptive Closure: Judas, Value, and New Life

• [56:08–57:32]

• Jay points out that the Greek word for “honor” is used for the “price” (the reward Judas received for betraying Jesus), highlighting how misplaced value and idolatry can literally be deadly and soul-destroying.
• They tie back the episode with encouragement: it’s never too late for new life in Christ, and true transformation shows itself in fruit and joy, not in simple rule-keeping.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On skills and family pride:

  “There's no amount of instruction that will help you...you're either born with it or you're not.” —Jay [03:16]

• On spiritual gifts vs. effort:

  “You can practice this for the rest of your life. Unless you do that little move where that air is being forced up and you use your tongue as a valve. You'll never get it.” —Jay [10:30]

• On Theo Von’s vulnerability:

  “I think I want a new story.” —Theo Von (Guest Clip) [18:19]

• On the heart of Christian community:

  “You’re not going to be able to do this by yourself. It's surrender first.” —Jase [52:25]

• On sin and spiritual rejection:

  “If you ultimately reject the Holy Spirit…you have rejected God himself in his revelation of truth. Where else are you going to get the information from? Where else are you going to receive this beautiful, wonderful story that we can live into?” —Zach [47:17]

• On finding joy in Christ after years away:

  “My biggest surprise has been…I didn’t realize how much joy there is in Christ.” —Jay’s Friend [53:46; paraphrased by Jay]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Duck Call Family Pressure & Skills: [01:03–10:57]
• Hoverboards, Skiing, and Life Skills: [12:20–14:52]
• Theo Von’s Clip and Discussion: [15:19–18:19]
• Story as Faith, Not Transactions: [18:48–24:01]
• Blasphemy Against the Spirit / Sin That Leads to Death: [30:52–38:32]
• Hebrews 6 & Fear of Losing Salvation: [43:18–48:42]
• Personal Redemption Stories & Community: [24:01–55:12]
• Judas, Value, and Spiritual Identity: [56:08–57:32]

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Episode Summary

This episode artfully mixes the Robertson’s signature humor and storytelling with an earnest exploration of what it means to be transformed by faith. Prompted by Theo Von’s viral vulnerability, they confront fears about failure, the nature of unforgivable sin, the necessity of community, and the deep need for healing that only Christ offers. The answer to “do you want to be healed?”—is not merely about saying yes, but accepting the only true source of life and refraining from giving one’s heart to idolatry, whatever form it takes. The episode encourages listeners to embrace a new story in Christ, marked not by mere rule-keeping, but by authentic joy, surrender, and connection.

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Transcript

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[Jay]

I am unashamed. What about you?

[Jase]

Welcome back to Unashamed. It's interesting, Jay. So I had. I had the two city stop on my last last week appearances and we started in Cincinnati, Ohio, and we were speaking. Actually, it's weird because you fly in. It says the Cincinnati airport, but you're actually in Hebron, Kentucky.

[Jay]

Really?

[Jase]

Yeah, it's the Cincinnati airport that's not in Ohio or Cincinnati. It's in Kentucky, which is very confused.

[Jay]

You speak some truth to them.

[Jase]

I did.

[Jay]

Oh.

[Jase]

First of all, first of all, first of all, I said, you gotta go. You guys kind of know where you are. I'm flying into Kentucky. I'm in Cincinnati. You got me really confused. Indiana is close by. But they asked me to do something that I never do, which. And you'll appreciate this, Jace, because there's a reason why I don't. So they had asked me before, like we had a little conference call about a week before we went up there and they said, look, at the end of it, it's always a little bit of an awkward transition. We're trying to get people to give to this event and we want to know if you would do something with duck calls during this period of time. Oh, I know. And I said, well, there's one call you can blow. Yes. And that. So here's what I said. I said, well, yes, I can, because there's a. There's a couple of our calls that I can do well. But I said, I don't really blow the mallard call because that takes a skill set. I don't really have the mallard.

[Zach]

You just never. You just Never did it. They just.

[Jase]

I tried. I just couldn't get it down. I said, I got air control issues.

[Zach]

I figured it out. But I didn't figure it out. And the duck line would chase or Phil, that's for sure.

[Jase]

Well, so, okay, then, he's in.

[Jay]

He's picking a fight here. And I want to interrupt your story. Now, you're. If you hear something that's not true, we have to stop and say, time out. Look, as much as I believe that everyone is born in the image of God and they are free to make choices, even though at some point along the road they will make bad choices, when it comes to duck calling, on blowing a mallard hen call, you're either born with it or you're not. I agree, and it's just a fact.

[Jase]

And I've got Robertson DNA flowing through me, but I cannot control the air that comes out of my body.

[Jay]

There's no amount of instruction that will help you. It's kind of like golf some people. I've realized this. I'm never gonna be a professional level golf because I can't get the concept because you have to feel it. And the same thing with duck calling. I mean, there's gotta be a reason. The first time I blew a duck call in front of my dad, which I was really nervous about, I was like nine years old, and. Because he heard me when he was walking to the shop and he said, was that you blowing that duck?

[Zach]

Huh?

[Jay]

And I was like, yeah. He said, hit it. Hit it for me. And I thought, gulp, here we go. Nine years old, I blew it. And he said, you got it. He said, now you're a gut. He said you're a gadwall, which most people don't even know what, that they're a little higher pitched. My cadence sounded more like a gadwall hen than a malargyn, which is a different kind of duck, if you don't know. But that's my point. I didn't even do it wrong. I mean, I. Listen, I felt it.

[Zach]

But you've been practicing for a while, hadn't you?

[Jay]

Well, I have, but.

[Jase]

Yeah, but it's not just practice.

[Jay]

You're going with practice. It's not there. You're doing something with your body that you've never done before. And so there's a little. There's a little light bulb that goes off where this. This happens. And you realize all you're doing is putting air under pressure. Yeah, that's all you're doing. And the. A mallard hen call is Designed to be blown under pressure because their sound has to have a pressurized. I'll get a duck call and illustrate it.

[Jase]

All right. Why are you working on that? So it's like this, Zach. Here's what I compared to. You know how people can curl their tongue? Can you curl your tongue?

[Zach]

Yeah, I can do it.

[Jase]

Okay. So some people can't do that. And you say, well, yeah, just practice that. Just keep working on it. But you know what? They're never going to be able to curl their tongue.

[Zach]

Did you practice the duck call?

[Jase]

Oh, did I practice. I mean, like, I felt such for. It took me years. I should go to therapy to get over it. I mean, I'm the oldest son. I was like, what?

[Jay]

Because you're.

[Zach]

Like, I'm not even. You're not. Because I'm not a Robertson.

[Jase]

Right. So something is wrong with me. So, like, I went through a lot of trauma as a teenager trying to figure out because I couldn't blow a mallard hinko. And that's what we did.

[Zach]

Is that when you started getting pedicures?

[Jase]

Maybe.

[Jay]

Well, it's kind of like we talked about last podcast. The glory and. Or honor Shame. If you're. If you're in a family.

[Jase]

Well, I was thinking I was going to run the business. I mean, I went to business.

[Zach]

I want the money.

[Jay]

If you. If you're in a family that makes

[Jase]

duck calls and you can't blow.

[Jay]

And you can't blow one.

[Jase]

It was awful. That.

[Jay]

That's what I tell Willie. Willie's the CEO. And I'm like, what do you do when they ask you to blow a duck call?

[Jase]

Because we can't blow on it. He's a little better than me. Can fake it. Jeff can.

[Zach]

Jeff can.

[Jase]

Jeff's decent.

[Jay]

Well, there's decent and then there's.

[Jase]

Yeah, Jason was the only one that got it. Like, dad got it.

[Jay]

But finish your story.

[Jase]

Finish my story. So. So I told him I'd do it. And so. So in my mind, I thought, I'll bring my. I'll bring my lanyard, because on my lanyard, I don't even have a hen call on there, because I can't blow it. And why would I blow it anyway when I'm hunting with Jason? Dad, you know, I don't need to, but I will blow the Drake Mallord. Drake call. I can do that.

[Jay]

Well, all you have to do that is hum a low bass note, which I can do.

[Jase]

Well, I can also do almost every whistle on the pintail whistle. There's four or five different things I can do there. So I was going to bring that, give them a little illustration of that. I've done it before. I've done it on national television before.

[Zach]

I can't do the pintail because you. That's. I cannot do that.

[Jase]

Yeah, the uvula. Yeah, it's hard to flutter it.

[Zach]

I never could figure that one out.

[Jase]

So anyway, so. But here is the problem. Problem. I do a lot.

[Jay]

I do a lot of which.

[Jase]

Yeah, I do a lot of events and so I forgot the duck calls. So I get there and I'm like, oh, boy. So. So they have ordered some calls that they're giving away. But guess the two calls they had. So they had the teal call, which is even harder to blow than the modern income. Well, it is for. If you're like me, you can't fake it. I can fake the other one because I can do just a straight quack. But I couldn't even fake that because you had to. It's so much pressure on there to get it to even make a sound. It's so high pitched. So they had that call and I was like, boy, I can't blow that. But they also had a wood duck call which I can blow the wood duck on. And I can do the flying and the sitting. So I could do the back and forth.

[Jay]

Yeah, I'd like to hear that.

[Jase]

Oh, yeah, I can do it. I can do it. It's not quite as good on the sitting as y' all do, but it's. I can still do it. And so anyway, but look here you think about it. Me, this has been like a lifetime. So all of a sudden I'm putting myself out here because I'm like, all right, give me the two calls. Yeah, I'll do it. I said I'd do it.

[Jay]

Were you nervous?

[Jase]

A little bit, yeah. Because it's out of my element. But I got up. So what I did on the teal call, I did not blow it. But what I. I told them the story about how the. The how much they quack versus the peep. If I'd had the whistle would have been a lot better.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jase]

Whereas the women do all the talking, the men don't do it. Well, it got a huge laugh, which was so. So I pulled that part off and then I blew the wood duck call and then I gave the. Here's what they are flying. Here's what they are sitting. You don't want to have a flying while we're flying because it's air traffic control. Everybody's you know, so I've heard y' all do enough demonstration. So I pulled it off, is what I'm saying. But I opened. Jason, this is. Was the point of my story, because dad used to say, boys, never leave home without your duck calls, your Bible, or your woman. Yeah, he would include all three. And so I told him. I was like, folks, I did two out of three. I forgot my duck call. So that was my open. Well, I made it work. I'm a professional.

[Jay]

So I'll give you the Drake that Al can do. Because if you just go, then just the little mallard drake chirp. I mean, anybody can do that.

[Jase]

If you can do a bass, you don't hum.

[Jay]

Look. Yeah, it's just green wing teal, but, yeah, it's a whistle. So on the mallard hen, so you have this. I've never boned this call. We'll see. I'm gonna see what kind of production they're doing around here.

[Jase]

Oh.

[Jay]

So all you can do is blow. So you either blow. Well, that doesn't sound like a duck.

[Jase]

No.

[Jay]

I don't know what that is. So people say, well, you got to pressurize your air. So they try to grunt.

[Jase]

They'll go, this is where I get. That's where I get into too much grunt, because I can't pressurize there.

[Jay]

If you pressurize your air, which you do, you say, well, how do you put yourself under pressure? Hold your breath? If you hold your breath, all of a sudden a pressure starts to mount, because if you don't at some point get some air going, you'll die. The pressure is real, but you keep that position. And instead of blowing, instead of holding your breath and then just blowing, you keep everything tight.

[Jase]

That sounds like a duck.

[Jay]

So then you got your duck sound. Well, if you've never done that, and you haven't, it's hard to do it for the first time. So it's like one of those things. It's not like the golf swing, where if you go out there and practice, you. You'll get better. You can practice this for the rest of your life. Unless you do that little move where that air is being forced up and you use your tongue as a valve. You'll never get it.

[Jase]

Jason, we got summertime coming up. The kids are out of school, which gives us an opportunity to maybe read some books to them.

[Jay]

My favorite author of Brave Books is actually my wife.

[Jase]

Jeff and Jessica are also authors as well. Brave Books. We've been talking about these guys for a few years. We love them. They teach kids things like courage, standing firm in your faith, loving others, and they do it. And it is stories that are rooted in biblical truth. Every book has games and memory verses in the back. They help kids apply lessons to their lives, as Jay said. Missy wrote a book about unconditional love called because you're my family. Jeff and Jessica's book is called Dear Valor, which is an awesome story about adoption and God's love for us. We love reading them to our grandkids. Lisa and I are a big part of Brave books. Wait for new ones to come out. And here's what you do. You subscribe, you get a new book every month, and you'll get a free starter kit. Plus, both of the Robertson books that we just showed you are completely free. Use the code unashamed for 20% off your first order. Let's raise kids who are unashamed of their beliefs. Head to bravebooks.com unashamed. Use the code unashamed. That's bravebooks.com unashamed. Use the code unashamed.

[Zach]

It's more like riding a hoverboard. Yeah. Fred got a hoverboard when he was a kid.

[Jay]

No, that's just hanging on.

[Zach]

Nah, nah, nah, nah. I'm telling you, it's, it's, it's. There's a thing that clicks. There's a clicking moment and you. And then it's like, you know how to do it. I never got to that moment. I mean, I. Because I got on one, I watched him do it, and I was like, man, that looks kind of. He makes it look easy. He's just rolling around town on this hoverboard. He's, you know, turning around, doing all kind of stuff. And it was like his mode of transportation for probably, probably two years.

[Jase]

You know what they call that for use? That. That's called a future, er, visit.

[Zach]

No, no, no.

[Jase]

I got.

[Zach]

You didn't. I jumped out there and I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try this.

[Jase]

And so that's how you went in the er.

[Zach]

I put, I put the first foot on. Put the. I started with my left foot and, and I was like, I think, I think this is. Is going to be easy. If it's not, I'll figure it out. Put on the, the second foot. And I mean, as soon as both feet were on down goes. I mean, I. It was like the thing left me and my feet, like, went up in the air above my butt. Above my tailbone.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And so my tailbone I mean, it's just like. I mean, just bam.

[Jase]

You'll never be the same.

[Jay]

That's why you didn't get my joke. It went past you because we're so different mentally. Yeah. You don't ride the hoverboard. You're actually just trying to stay atop of it.

[Jase]

Yeah.

[Jay]

There's no riding. You're hanging on. It's not a riot. It's an illusion.

[Zach]

No, they're not there. I'm saying it's not hanging on.

[Jay]

The whole point is to stay upright.

[Zach]

It's fluid. It's a fluid experience. Like, you.

[Jay]

Either you're just wanting to stay up there. It's like skis, you know, but they were. Jill was like, upright.

[Zach]

It's the same. You say, I don't ski. I've gone about four times. And the last time I went was up here in the mountains of North Carolina. And I get off the ski lift and. Well, first I couldn't get off the ski lift, so I had to go all the way back down and back around again. Then I get off the ski lift, and I. And I fall and hit my head, which had a helmet on. I hit this metal pole, and it's like, bong. And everyone's looking at me. Then I. I mean, I fell probably six times. And Jill's like, it's fine. I'm like, no, it's not fun. Like, I'm not enjoying this. And so I. I'd retired. I. That's when I started getting my pedicures out.

[Jase]

I just said, well, skiing is definitely another one of those things that some people are just really naturally good at, and other people struggle.

[Jay]

I've seen too many inj. I just never wanted to get involved. But what I wanted to say is, when you. When you had the experience where you landed at the Cincinnati airport, and it wasn't in Cincinnati. See, to me, when I hear that, I'm always going to use that in the speech.

[Jase]

Yeah, that was my.

[Jay]

To get to the three questions, though, which is, how'd you get here?

[Jase]

Right.

[Jay]

Where are you at? Which I'm. I'm saying the concept of, you're here on Earth, how did you get here? Is there a God type of thing? I'd have used that. I'd have made fun of it.

[Jase]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Then to say, how'd you get here?

[Jase]

I did something similar. Yeah.

[Jay]

So I think every.

[Zach]

Everybody's looking for that. Everybody's looking for the story of their life, like, the story they can live into. I just sent y' all. Maddie a clip of a comedian, Theo Vaughn, who. I saw this on Instagram, and it just really touched me, but he basically.

[Jay]

Am I supposed to know who that is?

[Zach]

Well, you probably. I mean, he's kind of a big, big celebrity right now. It's absolutely hilarious, too. Yeah.

[Jase]

What.

[Zach]

But you didn't know who Dave Ramsey was either.

[Jay]

Put it in Phil Robertson's work. What. What book did he write in here?

[Zach]

He didn't write a book, but he's from Louisiana. He's Louisiana boy.

[Jase]

Really?

[Jay]

I'm sorry.

[Jase]

I like him now.

[Jay]

Yeah. You haven't heard of him either?

[Jase]

I haven't. Is he. Where is he from in Louisiana?

[Zach]

I don't know the answer to that.

[Jase]

Okay.

[Jay]

Is he a Christian comedian?

[Zach]

I don't think he's a. I think he's either recently become a Christian or he's searching. I mean, he's definitely on a journey because, in fact, aren't we all.

[Jase]

That was.

[Jay]

Maybe I shouldn't have asked that, because you don't.

[Zach]

I tell you what. You watched. You watch the clip that.

[Jay]

I mean, what I was saying, you play.

[Zach]

Can you play the clip, Maddie? Can you play on your side?

[Jay]

I don't listen to most comedians because most comedians are nasty.

[Zach]

Yeah, he get a raunchy. But. But he's funny, though. I will say he's funny, but he has.

[Jay]

Is that a justification to the law? We want to get back into that.

[Jase]

We got to get back.

[Zach]

We'll play the clip out here.

[Jase]

We'll let.

[Zach]

Yeah. I want y' all to see this, because I thought it was. It was interesting to the point you just made about what you. What you ask people that question.

[Guest Speaker]

I don't know. I'm starting to just feel something different. And then I was also. I was. I was looking on this Bible, and there's a story called John 5, and it's about a guy who's at these pools. And some people follow the Bible, some people don't. That's fine. And Jesus is. Is at the. Is at the pools and. And it's in Bethesda, and there's a sick man there, and he's been sick for a long time. And Jesus asks him, do you want to be healed? He asks him, do. Do you want to be healed? And that's a crazy question because, you know, if I get healed, then I'm different. You know, if somebody gets healed, they have a new story. So that's just been something that I've been having to ask myself. It's like, do I want to be healed? Do I really Want something different. And sometimes a lot of the answer is no. I don't. I don't know if I'm scared of it. I don't know what I am. I don't know if I don't want to do what it takes to get. I can't even tell what it is. It's hard for me.

[Jay]

This is.

[Guest Speaker]

Some of this stuff's a little bit hard for me to say. I think. I don't even know why, but I think I want a new story.

[Jay]

I thought you were gonna. He was gonna tell a few jokes.

[Jase]

No, that was, like, a serious moment. He's from Covington, by the way. He's 46 years old.

[Jay]

Zach, you need to make some phone calls, and we'll get into some healing.

[Jase]

Yeah, let's get another podcast.

[Jay]

I know a guy who's really good at creating a new set of circumstances for you.

[Jase]

Yeah.

[Jay]

And he's a really good healer.

[Jase]

Yeah. Do you want to be healed?

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Yeah. I felt like I watched that, and I thought, man, this guy, I never. I. Willie. I think Willie knows him. I've never met Theo, but I thought, man, that's a kindred spirit there. If somebody that's searching for that, for a new story. And I love that because I think that going back to what we were talking about in the last podcast, when you reduce everything just to the transaction. Right. You miss the bigger thing of what's actually happening, that we're invited into a story. We're invited into participation in the story of Christ and who God is. And which I think is that, John, that passage he was talking about, too, it hits right up. Right. Right on that. But you think about when we talked about in the Hillsdale episode out, you know, when we went to. Did the one on the series on C.S. lewis, I just found that to be so compelling that what led him to Christ was not the intellectual arguments, although he was very capable of addressing those. And he did. I mean, go read Mere Christianity and a lot of his work. He was a great apologist, and he had a great mind as well as Tolkien and others that he was friends with. But what led him to a relationship with Christ was the invitation from Tolkien to, hey, why don't you just kind of settle down on your, you know, your intellectual pursuits? Can you just rest in the story of who Jesus is? And it wasn't until he really looked for a new story that he was able to really understand the beautiful nature of what Christ is offering. And I think that's what you were getting at in that last episode, Jace, about how we understand the concept of sin.

[Jay]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, that verse does say, confess your sins so you'll be healed, because, you know, sin tends to. There's a loneliness that comes with it, a detachment. You know, you separate yourself from God and then the more sins go because it also is just so contagious. It's like a snowball going off the mountain. And you lose your community because you think about the relational aspect of it. When we talked about honor and shame. Well, if you asked what my problems are, I mean, I got a group of people who know every problem I've ever had, because I've had discussions about that and I've been a part of other discussions. And I think when you look at what we have in Christ, that's why you're in this state of. You're not worried about, oh, am I going to lose my salvation because I broke this rule. It's a relationship with the Lord, who is multifaceted in that we have a father that we're praying to, we have a brother who we're following. We have the spirit of Jesus in us that's so intimate. And all you got to do is think about just becomes something different, I think, than kind of how we were raised when we were talking about. We got a rule book. Keep the rules. Let's gather up once a week, make sure everybody's checking the boxes. And then you go out there and almost like, live a different life. And you're wondering why you kind of feel like Theo sometimes. Like what? What seems to be the problem here? Where's the excitement?

[Jase]

Well, and I love Jace, that Theo did exactly what you did a lot. When we were studying John, was he focused in on the questions? Oh, yeah, because that was really good. Do you really want to be ill?

[Zach]

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[Jase]

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[Zach]

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[Jase]

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[Zach]

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[Jay]

I had an experience today. This. I mean, I'll share it with you. I stopped at Chick Fil A because I realized I've been on the road. I came in late at night, my wife's out of town. We met early and it hit me. I was like, I haven't eaten in half a day, you know, and a night, you know, and I was like, I was like, I'm gonna hit Jack.

[Jase]

Zach. You wonder how people don't struggle with weight when you've, when you haven't eaten for days and. Because you just forgot. Yeah, that's why you don't struggle with

[Zach]

weight when Jill's out of town. I mean, there's a lot of things that I'm gonna miss, but I promise you I won't miss a meal.

[Jay]

Yeah, well, I'm like, I gotta go to the grocery store. But anyway, so the point is. But I was excited because I told you that event was so good. And I was just excited and I did something unique in the event because y' all know I have a really good friend who I consider like a mentor. He's in his 90s. Big Jim, Jim McGuigan. He wrote a bunch of books and he's very theological minded in his early years, but in his later years, he became way more relational with God. And a lot of things that I use I get from him where he's like, when he summed up the Bible in 60 seconds. I mean, I remember the first time I ever heard him say that, I thought, oh, boy, this is awesome. When he's like, Genesis to Malachi, Jesus is coming to earth. Matthew through John, he's here on the earth, Acts to the Revelation, he's coming back. I thought, there it is. Where have you been all my life? You know, I mean, that was so exciting to me. But so anyway, now that he's up in years and, and he had a stroke and he's just struggling with his health, it's now kind of like I'm trying to help him just because when you get that age and you're not doing good health wise, you feel like, what's my purpose? You know? So Missy and I visited him and I think I told y' all about that podcast a couple months ago at his house and it was just wonderful. But here lately, I've been, I've been just trying to encourage him, you know, he's not been feeling well. So at that event, I said, look, would y' all do me a favor? I was like, I got a guy who I love and he is a partner in Christ with me. And he's given me so many great ideas about the scriptures because despite even having a bit of dementia and all that, he doesn't know the, he can't remember the, the books of the Bible or the names of the verses. But Al, the man has memorized the Bible. Oh, yeah, the concepts. It's incredible. He writes these beautiful, like, poems and stories that are centered on stories of the Bible, and he just writes them to me. But I hadn't heard from him for a while, so I said, look, so here's what I'm going to do. I said, we want to encourage him because he's. When you're at that age, you're feeling like, you know, what's my purpose? And so I, I got my phone out. Ms. Place is packed. And I said, when I point it toward you. And we, we discussed what we would say, but we came up with keep writing Big Jim.

[Jase]

Yeah.

[Jay]

And so when I did that, they all just yelled. It started cheering. So I'm gonna give that. I haven't sent it to him yet, but by the time this airs, I will. But anyway, I was really excited about that because I thought this is going to lift his spirits. And so I stopped the Chick Fil a. I'm feeling good is my point. Well, when I get to the get my order, this nicest woman in the world, she's there about every other time I go there, she's like, hey, Mr. J, how you doing? Just real talkative. Well, when I handed her my card, which was a brand new credit card because I just got it, there's a story here. She went, wow, this card is heavy. Yeah. And I said, you have no idea. The old one that this replaced. And she was looking at me, you know, I said, I tried to destroy it. You know what I figured out? It's indestructible. Ow.

[Jase]

You can't cut it with a wire.

[Jay]

Cut it. It was an American Express car. Look, I beat that thing with a hammer. I tried to burn it.

[Jase]

You can't even cut it with wire tape.

[Jay]

I took a meat cleaver and I hit it. And every time I hit it, it took a chunk of the meat cleaver out. And look. So I looked at her and I said, you know what? I concluded this thing must have the spirit of God in it. When I said that, Al her eyes, like, popped out of her head. Her eyes got big, and I was like, does that scare you? I don't know why she responded that way, but I thought, I think I planted a seed there. And I was wanting to get into Romans 8:11, because I was thinking, what is that verse? I said, what is that verse? You know, if we have the spirit. And it was Romans 8:11, where it says, if the spirit of the Lord is living in you, it will give life to your mortal body. You'll become imperishable, indestructible. But then when I drove away, I thought, she's thinking about that right now. But then it hit me. I thought maybe her eyes got bigger, because if the spirit was in your credit card. And this is what I was getting to our point about, the relational aspect. It knows what you're spending your money on.

[Jase]

Oh, yeah.

[Jay]

Which is another aspect, which is what

[Jase]

Bill Smith used to say, if you really want to see where your preferences lie. Of course, this is years ago, we would say credit card now. But in his days, it was checkbook. He said, go back and flip through your checkbook and see where you've been spending your money.

[Jay]

I actually thought it would have made a great old Duck show episode.

[Jase]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Because you know what I really thought I wanted to blow it up. I thought, you know, if I just build a bomb and put that card and then set it off, then we

[Jase]

could go, well, you know what they tell you now, Jaz, you didn't know this because you probably don't read your stuff, but they Just they tell you to send it back to them because they know you can't destroy it.

[Jay]

Did they say that?

[Jase]

Yeah. The new ones, the heavy ones, like those, they just say, send them back to us.

[Jay]

But that should show everyone how dangerous that is. Yeah. If they're making something, which they're making money off every transaction, so they want you to use it. And how many people are in credit card debt up to their eyeball, that should tell you how dangerous that is. If you give your power to that, because they have made it indestructible. There's no, oh, my card's broken. I need another. Oh, no, not this thing. You'll destroy everything you have trying to get rid of it.

[Jase]

I love it. So, Jay, what a segue you have segued into, because I left a cliffhanger last time of what I think about this sin that leads to death. Your illustration has perfectly swerved into what I believe John is talking about, because really.

[Jay]

And I had no idea that this

[Jase]

is random, but it's perfectly exactly what I think he means. And it's interesting because John says this in one John, but in the book of John, he doesn't mention something that Matthew, Mark, and Luke all mention, which I find fascinating, because, I mean, his whole approach to the gospel was different because he focused on just kind of the last. Mostly half the book is the last week of Jesus life. And his whole approach was different. It wasn't just like all the facts of Jesus.

[Jay]

Well, and he kind of had the seven signs, and he goes through the seven days.

[Jase]

So. But there's all three in Matthew 12, 31, 32, Mark 3, 28, 29, Luke 12, 8, 10. There's a reference that Jesus. And I'll just read one, but they're in all three where he says these words and John doesn't record it in his. Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. So this is what tuned me into that phrase, because he talked about sin that leads to death. And Jesus used a phrase, if you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, you will not be forgiven. Well, the similarity of those two to me just seem too much a coincidence. You've got over here a sin that leads to death, over here a sin that can't be forgiven. They sound similar to me. So I went back and looked at the context of all three of these, and remember, John doesn't mention it, but he does mention something similar in one John and so what was the context around all three of those statements when Jesus made them, Every one of them. He's being accused earlier in the chapters of being demon possessed is how he's able to do the miracles. And later in all those contexts, he comes back and says, when you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, it's the sin that can't be forgiven. So I take that to mean that when you deny, you mentioned the incarnation of Christ, which I would agree that that's the underlying theme of one John, but it's the power source that makes it possible. And you can't deny part of the Godhead and still think you're okay with the other part of the Godhead. I think it's Jesus point, but I also think it's John's point. In other words, what is the fuel for that? And you just said it. The fuel for Jesus, even Jesus, the son of God, when he came here was the Holy Spirit, which is why he said he was going to impart that to us. And he spent a lot of time talking about that to his disciples. So when you deny that, whether it's because he says if you say something bad about me, you can be forgiven because a lot of people said a

[Jay]

lot about me, doesn't that go along with the idolatry idea?

[Jase]

And that was the last point I was going to make. And that's why I think he closes with that idea that if somehow you think something else can be the source, source of your salvation, of your life, of the fruit of your life, and, and specifically Jesus, they were attributed to him, that it was to Satan, but I think any idolatry leads back to Satan.

[Zach]

I hate to say this because I'm wearing a sweatshirt right now, but I know it is warming up down there in Louisiana. How's the weather?

[Jase]

Oh, it's nice here.

[Jay]

You can tell now we have the shirts that show the weather.

[Jase]

Exactly. The poncho shirts. And they are comfy, very comfy.

[Jay]

And the good news is I could leave right here, right now and go play golf.

[Zach]

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[Jase]

I think we're polo guys, you know, And I ran into Willie at the airport a couple nights ago coming in, and guess what he was wearing. Poncho shirt. Poncho.

[Zach]

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[Jay]

When we read that verse in an earlier podcast about 2 Corinthians 6, where it said, you know, don't be yoked with unbelievers, verse 14. And it says, what fellowship can light have with darkness? Which that theme is all over John, right? And then he says, Paul says, what harmony is there? And that harmony is that. That's why we said this thing at the end of the day when we did all that about sin. To your point, I think you really hit on something powerful is by doing something that is not the image of God, you're then giving the power of your life over.

[Zach]

That's right.

[Jay]

To. There are two camps and only two, right? You have God's camp and then you have the spiritual forces of evil. That's why, you know, Satan is brought up right after this.

[Jase]

Right?

[Jay]

Right after this passage in verse 19. We used to read it in Bible studies. You know, the whole world is under the control or held captive by the evil one.

[Zach]

That's right.

[Jay]

So I think. I think you're right. Which would be the opposite of life. Because in Jesus, and he also did say in the last verse of First John 3, we have the Holy Spirit. We know. What does it say Exactly? We know First John 3:24, those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us.

[Jase]

And just to tie it off, I think that's why whenever Satan tempted Jesus directly, you remember he went at him kind of from three different angles. But the third angle was, if you will just join forces with me, we'll rule this together. Remember when he said that in the Temptation, he was like, if you'll bow the knee to me, then I will rule with you all these kingdoms of the earth. And Jesus told him very clearly, he said, you worship the Lord your God only. And so he made an exclusivity about God. You can't hold hands with idolatry and the evil one and somehow expect to be in a right relationship with God. So that's why I think the idea of unforgivable or a sin that can't be forgiven or a sin that leads to death is that concept you cut out the only source by which you can find salvation in the Godhead when you do this. And so I think any form that takes that place is always a handhold with Satan. And it's never going to work. It didn't work from the beginning. It doesn't work at the end. So that's what I think he's referring to in both passages. But they go at it from different angles, which is very interesting.

[Jay]

So I don't think we had a bumper sticker answer to that, but I do agree with your assessment. What do you think, Zach?

[Zach]

I had to. I had to step. I had to step out because Bear got. Bear gotten a little fender bender. I'm like, I'm telling, oh, boy.

[Jase]

But he's okay.

[Zach]

He's okay. But I'm not okay. I'm like, jesus, take the wheel, because I'm about to.

[Jase]

I'm like, I tell you what, don't do it, Zach.

[Jay]

One of the worst memories I had is when I almost died. Al remembers it. I pulled out in front of a vehicle, spun eight times, ran into a light pole I didn't have myself.

[Jase]

Thank goodness I wasn't there. I'd be dead.

[Jay]

And when I came to, here's my dad standing over me in a ditch saying, wow, what a man.

[Jase]

Pull in front of traffic.

[Zach]

I'm like, I'm so mad right now. I'm having trouble. So what was it? Tell me the question again.

[Jase]

Well, we.

[Jay]

We've spent a month cliffhangering the idea what is the sin that leads to death?

[Zach]

And me and Al, I think it's. I think it's. I think it's multiple wrecks over and over again. You just refuse. You refuse to say, I'm not.

[Jase]

You know, I'm.

[Zach]

Start driving safe.

[Jase]

Poor Bear.

[Zach]

Right now, that's what it is. It's like belligerent, like, I'm not going to. It actually probably is.

[Jase]

When you and Jill, when he walks out of your house one day and he's heading off to college or military or whatever his future holds, you and Jill are going to be. It's going to be a bittersweet moment. You're going to be so full of joy and yet so full of angst and wonder.

[Jay]

Is that I feel that was that. Because I mean it makes me have all the memories because we weren't hover parents once they reached 17, 18 years old.

[Jase]

Yeah.

[Jay]

But it is so difficult because you're like, you got to let them fail and all this. But you're like, I just hope they don't get killed during the process, you know?

[Jase]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jase]

Well, I know that there were a lot of prayers like that for me because I was a prodigal. So I know especially mom was praying that I didn't get killed.

[Zach]

And the thing that made me the madness was the text. He said, don't worry, I'll make it right. I'll take care of it.

[Jase]

And I'm like, oh boy.

[Zach]

Not. But you. You won't. Because the whole. What happens is now he was trying

[Jay]

to honor Yalls relationship by saying I get it.

[Jase]

So Zach, what I did was I tied in the. The John passage of the sin that leads to death with the Matthew, Mark and Luke passage that Jesus says is the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Jase]

Is a sin that can't be forgiven. And I think they were. They were similar come at from two different angles. But I think it's the same concept of denying the source of who God is. Which then he closes with the keep yourselves from idols. Which is really interesting. At the very end of First John, I think he. He just saves that last line as this was the point of the whole thing. Jay said this.

[Zach]

Yeah. You look at. I think it's connected. You see it repeated in scripture as well. Like in places like Hebrews 6, you know, and when.

[Jase]

That's exactly where I just started. Exactly.

[Zach]

I mean you say. I mean it's like he's talking to. Because idols can be good things too. Right. And so in Hebrews they were. They were wanting to go back to the old law, which wasn't a bad thing. I mean the law wasn't bad. I mean it was God's law.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Zach]

But they wanted to go back to it. And the Hebrew writers, like if you do that, you realize there's no coming

[Jase]

back because you gotta do the whole thing. Yeah.

[Jay]

Well, somebody made the point that we're. We're actually. Because when you look up what the word image is, we're made in the image of God. It. You'll see idol.

[Jase]

Yeah.

[Jay]

We're. Because what is a statue it represents something that was real.

[Jase]

Yeah.

[Jay]

So that. That's what we are. We're. We're functioning idols. We're supposed to be reflecting though God. It's a little different, but situation.

[Jase]

Exactly.

[Jay]

That's why when you're not. That's what sin is. When you're not reflecting. Reflecting the image of God, which to me, we hadn't really talked about this. The whole problem with sin, another aspect of it is while you're committing that sin, you're not doing what you should be doing, which is reflecting the image of God, which you're missing your purpose. So that's why people get it wrong. I got it wrong the first three or four years of my Christian walk because I thought following Jesus was not sinning.

[Zach]

Well, I think this is where this. This is such a good topic because I think this is where a passage like Hebrews 6, people get scared. They read that and they're like, wait a second. Can I lose my salvation?

[Jay]

Do you mean.

[Zach]

Yeah, read me.

[Jay]

Let me read it. I. I think because I turned over there, I think it's good. Then you. You Discuss says verse 4, 6, 4. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss, they are crucifying the son of God all over again. And here's the shame and subjecting him to public disgrace. There's the your honor, shame angle about sin, by the way.

[Jase]

Exactly.

[Zach]

All right, so I run a business when I'm telling you one of the bottlenecks of any business is all the phone calls coming in and all the phone calls coming out because a lot of information gets lost. And over time, you know, that adds up and it can really bottleneck your business. And that's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo. It's spelled Q, U, O. It's a business communications system built so that you never miss a call. Quo is the number one business phone system on G2 with 3,000 plus reviews, and over 90,000 businesses are already using it to stay connected. Your whole team can handle calls and text from one number so nothing gets missed. It harnesses AI to log calls, summarize them, and flag next steps so that nothing gets lost. Quo can even help track leads, respond after hours so that your business keeps rolling even after you've clocked out.

[Jase]

So, Zach, whenever Lisa and I came back to work for Duck commander in late 2013. This. This quo system would have been so good for us here because we have poor Linda, who was the, the voice of Duck Commander, trying to answer calls like she once did once a hit television show came on the air and she was completely swamped. We missed so many opportunities by not having something like quo.

[Zach]

Yeah, money's on the line, so always say hello with quo. Try quo for free. Plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to qu.comunashamed. that's q u.comunashamed. yeah. So you read that and you think, I mean, I, I'll tell you right now. When I was out there living not for Jesus, but I, I was, I. I was a Christian. But I went off a few years and I knew a new God. I had the Holy Spirit in me. I went off for a few years, for a year or so, and was like, I'm kind of sowing my wild oats. And then I came back to Christ and repented of all that. But I remember thinking, I read that, I read that verse and thought, can I come back? Have I gone too far? Because I have tasted in the goodness of the Word of God the powers of the coming age. I've shared in the Holy Spirit all those things. And, and, and I. And I kind of like went through a season where I wasn't living for that. And now I want to come back. Have I gone too far? And I think that the framing of that question in my mind was because I misunderstood the nature of sin. And it goes back to what we've been talking about. I thought sin was mainly a transaction thing, and so I missed the mark. I didn't follow the rules, but then I got right with God, and now, then I went back. But that's not what he's talking about. This is about a participation in the life of Christ. And so what I think the passage is saying is that if you have tasted in the Holy Spirit, if you have shared in the goodness of the Word of God, if you have participated in the life of Christ, and then you leave and reject that, what he's saying is you won't come back. He's not saying God won't take you back. He said, you won't come back because there's nothing else left for you. What he's saying is, is that the death and the burial and the resurrection of Jesus was not enough for you. And then he. And his point is there's nothing left past that. That is the whole thing. Everything is centered in, in the death and the resurrection of Christ. And so if that's, if, if life in Christ doesn't do it for you, there's no, like, thing greater than that. And that's why he says that you're returning back to that, that old land, you know, that's, this dried up like the old desert land. And so I think that's the. I think what that is, is it's, it's a. It is the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is the agent of God. He is the third person in the Trinity that actually convicts you about sin, guilt and judgment. John, chapter 16. Right. And so if he's the one that's illuminating your mind to the truth of who God actually is, and then you say, I'm not going to do that, and you continue to put your fingers in your ears, then your mind gets corrupted, your perception gets corrupted, and you start to believe in the lies of the evil one. So if you ultimately reject the Holy Spirit, now think about this. There is no other way that you are going to receive revelation from God about the way the world really is. You've rejected the source, you have rejected God himself in his revelation of truth. And so where else are you going to get the information from? Where else are you going to receive this beautiful, wonderful story that we can live into from? You're not going to get it anywhere else.

[Jase]

Which is why there's only one way to find the healing, which. Back to your Theo Vaughn clip. Do you want to be healed? There's only one source by which healing can come from, and we cannot find that in the world. We cannot find that in idolatry. We cannot find that in anything this life has to offer it. It is not there. You search, people search for it, but it's not there. And so you think about it. If that's your only thing you're trying to look for, that next thing that's going to be, you can't find it.

[Zach]

It's almost like he's saying that this medicine I have here in this cup, this medicine I have here can cure anything, any disease. It'll cure any disease. The only one that it won't cure is the one that would prevent you from taking. Can't cure that. Now, if you, if you have a disease that won't enable you to drink this cup.

[Jase]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Then you. Yeah, it can't cure that. But everything else.

[Jay]

We're not called to be policemen. I had an experience. Two, maybe 10 days ago, you know, a friend of mine called. Guy wanted to talk to him. And I was like, yeah, tell him, come on. I mean, I was familiar with the name. And the guy knocks on my door, he come in, sit down. I mean, I hadn't seen this guy in 30 years. And so obviously I didn't recognize him. And he was like, well, I just want you to know I'm, you know, I'm back with the Lord. I was like, really? You know what? Because I was wanting to. I was waiting for. I thought I was going to share Jesus with him. And so I was trying to get the details, and he's like, well, you don't. You baptized me when I was 19 years old. I was like, I did. How would I remember? But, you know, it was hard to wrap my head around because I was like, well, what have you been doing for the last 35 years? And he was like, getting drunk. I'm alcoholic. I was like, really? But he said, but I, you know, this turnaround happened a few months ago. And he's like, I didn't want to come talk to you until I made a clean break. Like, I'm a new man in Jesus and all that. And I thought he was going to like, well, baptize me again. But no, he's like, I understood it. I just, I was young and I just thought, no, I got too much I want to do. And he's like, I just. It took me 35 years and you know, having kids and all that was really what provoked him to relook at this thing. And, you know, you read these passages and you're like a guy like, this doesn't make sense to me practically. It's like, what have you been doing? But I tell you this, I mean, and we talked for a few hours. I was convinced. I mean, the last however many months it's been, I mean, he not only came back to the Lord, but do, you know, involved in the 12 step group. And he's like, I realize, okay, I have a problem. That is, I have no power over. And, you know, I'm in Jesus and all that, but I got to do the hard part to find a community. And it made me, in all our conversations talking about sin, we have to have that community also. This is part. That's why those groups work. And look, I criticize them sometimes because I'm like, jesus is the only one that can truly free you.

[Jase]

You don't want to say anything else, saves you, Jesus saves you.

[Jay]

But you're like, well, why does that Work, but it works because a necessary element is you're not going to be able to do this by yourself.

[Jase]

It's surrender first.

[Jay]

And unfortunately, our churches are not doing that. And so they have to go find somewhere else to get that aspect of it.

[Jase]

Yeah, the first surrender is the key, because I can tell you this, if you've ever spent any amount of your life, you know, for me, it was four years. But any amount of your life in service to idolatry, which includes yourself, what you want, then you don't forget that. Right, Zach? I mean, you know, that's always a part in your brain back there somewhere. But when. When you then remember what it was like when you finally surrendered that and said, you know what? That's not going to rule my life anymore. But Jesus Christ is. Through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus, you don't remember that. I mean, you don't forget that either. And so that becomes the impetus. And so I love your story, Jay, because people find this at different times in their life. And the key is that you find it well before you. Before you cross over.

[Jay]

The reason I told the story is because I was looking at it a little theologically, too, along the way, because you're like, what happened? Was he. Was he really in. Who did we bury? I was just thinking. But he did say one thing that I thought was profound, and it echoed Hebrews 6 here. He said, you know, my biggest surprise has been, he said, I didn't realize how much joy there is in Christ.

[Jase]

Oh, man, so good.

[Jay]

And I thought that verse about sharing in the Holy Spirit, you know, I mean, I think he knew the facts. Knew the facts. He rattled them off to me, like, I mean, Jesus died and being buried, but there was just something about kind of what we're talking about when you're looking at it all legally or transactionally. I was told, 1, 2, 3, 4. Here are the points. I agreed with them all. I did it. I responded. But there was no relationship in there with the Lord. It wasn't a sharing in the Holy Spirit. And so he can work that out on his own. But I tell you what, seemed to be in a really good place now, and it was actually emotional and inspirational. That's good, because you can't. You can't fake a new life in Christ. It's. I've been. I've had so many of those studies because I. I told him at the end, I was like, well, let me tell you this. I mean, I vaguely remember you, but you're making a lot of sense Right now, because you know me, if he's saying stuff, you can tell whether somebody gets it or not.

[Jase]

Yeah, right, right.

[Jay]

Oh, he gets it. And so I thought that was a good moment to say, it's never too late to stop what you're doing and re examine the relational aspect. We're called to a person, a being filled with love.

[Jase]

I do think it's interesting that we've been talking about. And Zach, you mentioned from Hebrews about the law. You could make the same argument from Paul's writing of Galatians concerning circumcision, which was a mark implemented by God. But then the people in Galatia were then wanting to make that a mark of salvation, and so they took something and turned it into an idol. But isn't it interesting that in that treatise to the Galatians, he closes with the most beautiful context of how John closes his book in a contrast between the sinful nature and the fruit of the spirit. And so if you have a struggle, read that list of the fruit of the spirit. If you're struggling because love, joy, peace, patience, you know, we've quoted it many times, then the Holy Spirit is doing his work. He just bears the fruit. If there's a block somewhere in there, it's you, it's not him. Just know that that's what you want to be praying about, how that can just flow more easily.

[Jay]

Well, I was. There was one thing that I know right out of time, but I was going to bring up about this idea of honoring the king and the Lord and him taking away not only our sin, but our shame, which is, you know, I'm glad we brought this up, but the story of Judas himself speaking of the sin that leads to death. What I found fascinating is I looked up the Greek word for honor. Every time it's used, it's like 21 times for honoring. But one time it's used, it's translated. The price of 30 pieces of silver that Judas paid, you know, when they. When the leaders took that and bought the field. It's the same word for honor. Wow. And it shows you that the sin that led to Judas literal death was. That was what he thought. That was the honor. He put what Jesus worth was, which was 30 pieces of silver, which was nothing. And I found that fascinating.

[Jase]

And it was so worthless to him at the end, he just went and slung it back in the temple.

[Jay]

There's something in there.

[Zach]

You know, it's funny about that, that right before that happened, the. The woman, who was it that poured out the whole year's worth of perfume. Yeah. On Jesus.

[Jay]

That's a great illustration for. And I think it. I hope this will help you when you see the word sin to take in all those factors.

[Jase]

Yeah, it's good.

[Zach]

All right.

[Jase]

We'll. We'll pick it up here next time. Don't own Ashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.