Ep 1339 | Replacing God with Politics Failed Then & It’s Failing Now

Summary

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Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1339 | Replacing God with Politics Failed Then & It’s Failing Now
Released: May 22, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, the Robertson family delves into the historical roots of American religious life—specifically the Great Awakening—while examining its profound impact on American politics, church structure, and personal faith. Drawing rich connections between historical events and modern Christian experience, they explore how spiritual revival, deconsolidation of church power, and grassroots movements not only shaped the nation but also remain relevant today. The Robertsons reflect on denominationalism, revival culture, and the ongoing tension between spiritual authenticity and institutional religion, all while bringing their signature blend of humor, candor, and deep faith.

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Key Highlights & Discussion Points

1. Setting the Scene & Hillsdale Partnership

• Location Bloopers and Family Banter: The episode opens with usual Robertson humor about podcast setups and missing equipment.
  • Notable Quote:
    • “We got all these nice sets here in North Carolina... and then John Luke shows up in a bunk bed.” — Zach (00:29)
• Hillsdale College Documentary “Revolutionary America” Shoutout:
  • Zach highlights a new historical documentary and ties it into their ongoing study of American history and faith.
    • “It’s not a watered down version either, which is why we like it. You can see how ordinary people risked everything…” — Zach (02:09)

2. The Great Awakening: Spiritual Renewal Paving the Way for Revolution

• Historical Context:
  • The hosts discuss how spiritual revivals—the Great Awakening especially—preceded and fueled political shifts toward freedom and self-governance in colonial America.
  • Corey notes his surprise at how intimately intertwined spiritual and political transformation were, often with spiritual renewal coming first.
    • “This really was sort of…the fanning flame that led to the revolution.” — Corey (08:06)
• Religious Lethargy & Comfort:
  • Al highlights the cycle of comfort leading to religious stagnation, drawing parallels between post-persecution lethargy in early Christianity and pre-Awakening America.
    • “…as wealth and security grew in the colonies, a spiritual lethargy crept in and the spirit of Puritanism faded…” — Al (12:14)

3. Revivalism: Emotionalism vs. Authentic, Lasting Change

• Camp Highs and Modern Revivals:
  • John Luke relates the “revival” phenomenon to modern youth retreats, acknowledging both the temporary nature of emotional highs and the lasting impact on key individuals.
    • “Say you have like 30 kids give their life to Christ…maybe one of them is going to keep that religious zeal moving forward and…make an impact. But that’s great. That’s one of them.” — John Luke (16:14)
• Critique of Emotionalism:
  • The family debates the balance between skepticism of shallow emotionalism and the genuine move of the Holy Spirit.
    • Zach: “Was that superficial? It was more superficial than…the last 30-year collective walk with Jesus. But it’s part of my walk.” (18:32)

4. The Deconsolidation of Religious Power

• Movement Away from Centralization:
  • Zach traces a historical arc from centralized church authority to personal faith, arguing for the positive effects of spiritual “deconsolidation.”
    • “When it’s real centralized and controlled…This is kind of the birth of centralized authority. Centralized power in religion now is being dispersed out…that preceded how we then saw these guys move into self governance.” — Zach (10:01)
• Denominations vs. Non-Denominationalism:
  • The Robertsons examine the rise of multiple denominations, the ecumenical spirit, and the modern preference for identifying as non-denominational.
    • Corey: “The number one group now is non-denominational.” (24:29)
    • Zach: “…it was a very denominational, non-denomination.” (25:21)
  • Zach notes that, despite claims of autonomy, theological “distinctives” often function like denominational boundaries.

5. Ecumenicism and Christian Unity

• Defining “Ecumenical”:
  • The group discusses the term and its implications for Christian cooperation and mutual respect.
    • Corey (AI definition): “Initiatives, movements or attitudes that promote unity, cooperation, better understanding among different Christian denominations or churches…” (27:53)
• Balancing Unity with Core Beliefs:
  • Zach draws a line at essential tenets—“bodily resurrection” and “deity of Christ”—while expressing openness to Christians in diverse traditions.
    • “I don’t believe in the teachings of universalism…I believe in a triune God. I believe in a bodily resurrection of Christ…these are core tenets.” (28:53)

6. The Preachers of the Great Awakening: Edwards & Whitfield

• Notable Sermons & Theological Shifts:
  • Discussion of Jonathan Edwards’ infamous “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” and George Whitfield’s emphasis on true conversion.
    • Zach on Edwards’ message: “…he was calling a generation out of just…spiritually dead…using loaded language to call them back.” (29:42)
    • John Luke quotes Whitfield: “Take care that you do not make a Christ of your baptism…who are never savingly baptized with the Holy Ghost.” (33:06)
  • Emphasis on the Holy Spirit’s role in personal and communal transformation.

7. Societal Impact: From Religious Renewal to Political Liberty

• Deconsolidation, Priesthood of Believers, and Liberty:
  • Zach ties the spread of spiritual renewal to the foundational ideas behind American political freedom, referencing Hebrews and the Book of Peter.
    • “…the Spirit of God is going to just…spread throughout the globe through individual people now. And I think that continues to be the trajectory of the kingdom.” (19:47)
  • Corey cites the course: “The rising of the spirit also accompanies the rising of liberty.” (36:38)
• Power in the Margins:
  • The family highlights how revivals often appeal to and are led by the disenfranchised, not the social elites.

8. Mass Repentance and National Consequence

• Revival Meetings’ Emotional Force:
  • Al and Zach reflect on the overwhelming emotion and repentance triggered by preachers of the era—as well as modern discomfort with depicting such “gritty” conversion scenes in Christian art.
    • “…to see that type of mass repentance…that was the genesis of the whole American spirit…” — Zach (42:00)

9. The French Revolution vs. The American Revolution

• Key Distinction: God in the Equation:
  • Corey points out how reliance on God led to lasting freedom in America and disaster in godless revolutions like France.
    • “…difference between the American Revolution and the French Revolution being…one had God and one didn’t.” — Corey (43:39)

10. Old Lights vs. New Lights: The Emotionalism Debate

• Charles Chauncey’s Cynicism:
  • Zach and Al criticize Chauncey’s resistance to revivalism as rooted in jealousy and fear of lost authority.
    • Zach: “I think he was totally threatened by what God was doing because, I mean, you can’t compete with that.” (45:32)
  • Discussion of “old lights” (covenant theology) versus “new lights” (personal conversion), with the family ultimately advocating a “both/and” approach to Christian experience and doctrine.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On Revival and Personal Faith:
  • “It’s not like it’s a long-term thing for like everyone…You can have these key people that come from this revival that do make lasting impact.” — John Luke (16:14)
• On Deconsolidation of Religious Power:
  • “…the Spirit of God is going to just, just like, spread throughout the globe through individual people now. And I think that continues to be the trajectory of the kingdom.” — Zach (19:47)
• On Ecumenical Spirit and Core Beliefs:
  • “I don’t believe in the teachings of universalism…I believe in a triune God. I believe in a bodily resurrection of Christ…these are core tenets.” — Zach (28:53)
• On Jonathan Edwards’ Legacy:
  • “…his whole ministry…was just to say that…my happiness and God’s glory are not on separate parallel tracks. They’re actually one and the same.” — Zach (31:15)
• On Mass Repentance:
  • “…out of that mass repentance of sin and then a turning to Christ…a generation of people…that was the genesis of the whole American spirit…” — Zach (42:00)
• On the Heart of Christian Liberty:
  • “…it’s a biblical one that you get freedom from surrender…it doesn’t seem logical from an earthly standpoint. But that’s exactly what happens.” — Corey (43:39)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:09 | Hillsdale’s “Revolutionary America” documentary preview
• 08:06–12:14 | The Great Awakening: Religious, political, and emotional renewal
• 16:14–18:32 | Modern revivals and parallels to youth camp experiences
• 19:47–21:15 | Deconsolidation of church power and implications for today
• 24:29–28:53 | Non-denominationalism, ecumenicism, and Christian unity
• 29:42–33:06 | Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield’s revolutionary messages
• 39:44–43:00 | Revival meetings, power of mass repentance, and cultural legacy
• 43:39 | Comparison: American vs. French Revolution’s spiritual foundations
• 45:32–48:09 | The Old Lights/New Lights debate and the emotionalism crisis

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Conclusion

The Robertsons trace the enduring interplay between spiritual revival and political freedom from colonial America to the present, urging listeners to seek authentic, Spirit-led faith rather than mere religious formalism or political solutions. Their lively debate, historical insight, and personal anecdotes underscore a core conviction: the health of the nation is inseparable from the spiritual vitality of its people—and when politics tries to replace God, it’s destined to fail, as history still shows.

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For more on this series and to take the course discussed, visit unashamedforhillsdale.com.

Transcript

[Zach]

I am unashamed. What about you? Well, welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. Here we are Friday with Hillsdale and the production value. Should we apologize in advance? And I'm looking at John Luke and he looks like he's sitting in a bunk bed on a cell phone. Am I right?

[John Luke]

That's exactly what I'm doing right now.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Corey]

From locations unknown. John Lucas.

[John Luke]

Locations unknown. Yeah.

[Zach]

I mean, yeah, we've got all. We've got these nice sets here in North Carolina we spent a lot of money and time on. We got one down in Louisiana and

[Corey]

Zach always mentioned the money.

[Zach]

I mean, we put all this into it. And then John Luke shows up in a bunk bed.

[John Luke]

Hey. Well, the someone who was supposed to get me the microphone camera setup situation did not give me that. So.

[Zach]

Okay, so that's on my side.

[Al]

Well, first Zach wants to talk about the money. That way people don't think he's on, but he's in front of a green screen.

[Corey]

Exactly.

[Al]

It's real.

[Corey]

He's actually in his bathroom.

[Al]

These are real books behind me.

[Zach]

Before we get into things.

[Corey]

I got you, Zach, because you were at my house and the setup was there in the hall. And the word I got was you were going to make sure and get it to John Luke before he left town. And I come in from my trip, you're gone. You left your apple watch on my counter.

[Zach]

I did do that.

[John Luke]

And.

[Corey]

And John Luke's setup was right there. Where I told somebody where it. Well, I think. I guess Maddie. But Maddie's not here.

[Zach]

I think it was. Now it's Josh's fault. Let's blame it on Josh season.

[John Luke]

Maddie did. Maddie did say Al was going to give it to me, but she's not here, so we couldn't blame it on.

[Zach]

I mean, I think we should blame Josh. Josh, it's your fault.

[Corey]

Stepping in for Maddie.

[Zach]

So, hey, somebody's got to take. So we all with Robertsons. You got to find the scapegoat.

[Corey]

So, yeah, you got to assess. Blame this place. You're at welcome, by the way, to unashamed. I don't think we ever say anything about this. Been our Hillsdale. We just got right into it. But before.

[Zach]

Before you go there, we got. We have to talk about the documentary. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Our friends at Hillsdale have a new documentary coming to theaters called Revolutionary America. It's narrated by Tom Selleck, who's whose mustache is legendary as John Luke's beard right now. It looks great and it really does feel like the next chapter after this course that we're taking right now called Colonial America. And what it does, it tells. This documentary tells the story of how this country started. And it's not a watered down version. It's not a watered down version either, which is why we like it. You can see how ordinary people risked everything and against all laws. They actually pulled it off and they built something that's lasted nearly 250 years. In fact, we're in that 250th year anniversary this year. And so with that anniversary coming up, it's a story that people need to understand and that we need to pass on that this is one you're going to want to see on the big screen as well, not just stream it later. You want to be in the theater for this, and it's only in theaters for a limited time. So you guys can get your tickets now at Hillsdale Edu Film. We'll put that link in the show notes. So sorry I interrupted you, but I had to get that in the first bit here.

[Corey]

No, no, that's good, because I'm excited about this movie and even taking the lectures. And we sure hope you're taking the lectures with us. The production value has been really, really good. And I'm assuming they're using probably some st from the movie because it's just some really cool scenes that lead into every. Every lecture, which are really good. Speaking of beards, you had one Christian, and now you're all. You're all clean. What gives? You're now the beardless bro.

[Al]

I'm back to being the only beardless man on the podcast. Well, so Sadie wanted me to kind of maybe shave my beard for the summer. I agreed to do it. I was like, what?

[Zach]

You want to maybe? Kind of maybe. What does that mean? I may.

[Al]

It means that she does not like it that I'm throwing her under the bus for being the causation of me shaving. So I was trying to kind of wiggle it in there a little bit.

[John Luke]

Hey, don't. But, hey, blame the woman here. She had mentioned had no say in the matter.

[Al]

She had mentioned it would be nice if I shaved for the summer. So I was planning on shaving June 1st, and then Sadie's actually speaking at the. At the Freedom 250 this weekend at the National Mall, and which is a pretty big deal. And I just kind of maybe felt like if I'm going to shave June 1st, I might as well shave 10 days before June 1st to maybe be a little more presentable beardless.

[Corey]

Because you Might even do the White House.

[Al]

I think we might go do a tour of the White House, which could be pretty awesome. Which would be pretty awesome. So I was just kind of like looking back on pictures in the future. I think I might just want to be shaving for that. But after I shaved, I immediately regretted it. And now I want to be in the process of growing it back. But yeah, for a short stint here, my hair is still long, which it kind of looks weird right now. So I'm going to get a hair. I'm going to get a haircut tomorrow. I don't know what my plan is.

[Corey]

If I'm not mistaken, I think Dr. Arn is speaking this thing as well. Yeah, I think I saw that for like in an email they sent the university sent me hands while you're up there.

[Zach]

Represent as well. Represent us well.

[Corey]

That's right.

[Zach]

I will drop some of the stuff you're learning this course on. He actually was. He was spoken. This actual lecture, I believe.

[Al]

Yeah, he did, of course.

[Zach]

So, yeah, you have to impress.

[Al]

Tell him we just talked about Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield this week. See what he says.

[Corey]

Well, when I. If. When, when. Because I know I'm going to get to meet him at some point because at some point I hope to get to go to his Hillsdale and you know, we got Double J up there. You know, he's. He's ready to host Double J. And from some of our previous lectures. But, you know, we. Dr. Arne is actually from Pocahontas, Arkansas and is a close family friend with my old preaching partner, Mike Kellett.

[Zach]

Really?

[Corey]

Yeah. Their families go way, way back, so they know each other really well. So that'll be my end that. I have been to Pocahontas. I have a picture of myself at the sign. That was the best.

[Zach]

Not a whole lot in 2 minutes

[Corey]

and 22 seconds when I went through there.

[Zach]

So don't blink or you'll miss it. But I've been through Pocahontas many times. Actually had a. I think. I think dated a girl from Pocahontas

[Al]

and her name was Pocahontas.

[Corey]

What's her name? Pocahontas.

[Zach]

That wasn't her name. I'm not gonna say her name because it might embarrass her now, but maybe I didn't date her or maybe I liked her. It's been a long. It was someone in college. There was somebody that interact. I can't remember. I interacted in some capacity. I can't remember the full story now. Maybe it's.

[Corey]

If you meet Dr. R, please do not go here, because. Don't. Don't bring this up. That's the one.

[Zach]

What if it was Dr. Kind of maybe getting awkward if it was his daughter.

[Corey]

What? Yeah.

[Zach]

What if it was Dr. Aaron's grandpa?

[John Luke]

Her name was.

[Zach]

He's got a. He's not. He's probably.

[Al]

Her name was Pocahontas Arn.

[John Luke]

He's.

[Zach]

He's not old enough to have a. Is he old enough to have a daughter my age? Probably not. I'm 48 years old. You gotta keep that in mind.

[Corey]

He might be. I stopped at the little gas station there when I was. And so I asked the lady behind the counter if she was familiar with the Kellets, and she said no, she had never heard of him. So when I got back, I said, I don't think Kellet is even from there because she act like she knew everybody else. Nelson was coming through, but she had never heard of the calendar.

[Zach]

Well, he ain't been there in a long time. Well, that's true. Well, we got. Yeah, this is. We're kind of. You know, we've been in this course on colonial America. A lot of kind of political stuff. It's odd. The religious stuff's always kind of percolated through this whole course. I think now we're getting into kind of more stuff. I've studied a lot before Jonathan Edwards, some of these guys. You know, I've actually read one of my favorite books, by the way, is a book by Jonathan Edwards, Religious Affections. But, yeah, I'd love to get kind of your guys take on kind of how the story is evolving of our history.

[Corey]

Well, for me, yeah, I thought it was really interesting because you're right, obviously, we talk a lot about religious liberty and being kind of the thread, especially from the Puritan perspective when things first started. But then we kind of have dove into more of the political side of things. And then this particular lecture, a lot of stuff I didn't know. I was aware of the Great Awakening, and I'd done a little bit of study into this, but not nearly as much, Zach, as you have. So I was amazed that this really was kind of the. From their perspective of giving the lecture, this was sort of really the fanning flame that led to the revolution, which came from this kind of renewal of the spiritual side. I did find it interesting because when they brought in Franklin's view of it, his idea about virtue being kind of over the long haul, I tended to kind of agree with that. Not That I love revival and I love things that are exciting and waves of the Holy Spirit that come along. And obviously this was one of those, I think. But at the same time, sometimes things can be faddish and I'm kind of more of a just long term best to, you know, I love excitement and I love emotion to be in my spiritual walk. But I'm kind of the tried and true guy too. So I could kind of see both sides of this kind of way they were viewing it in the day because you know how it happens when something comes up and it's great and everybody's being a part of it. There's some people that kind of look at it skeptically and other people that are just like, you got to get in on this. And then other people are kind of making sure this is something from God. So just. I felt all that because I feel like that still goes on today. Is that fair, Zach? I mean, like things will happen. And sometimes I look at it, I think, well, is this, is this a good thing? Or, you know, is this just going to, you know.

[Zach]

Yeah, nothing's like black. It's not, it's not like black and white. But what's interesting in this kind of evolution of the American Revolution, the evolution toward the Revolution is that you. I think sometimes we think that the political movements in America of self governance happened and then as a result of that we got like more religious freedoms and, and, but actually it's, it's not to your point. It's not one or the other. They're the. What, what they were experiencing spiritually, I think maybe preceded what then became what. What actually happened politically. And maybe it's, it's kind of back and forth. It's kind of these kind. They kind of do move in tandem together, but, but by the time you get to this part of the story, you have this massive revival. An awakening. The Great Awakening is moving across the United States and people are moving away from this centralized religious authority into personal responsibility for their faith, personal connection with God himself, even the clergy. I mean, everything's being disrupted, you know, and I love that story when I was listening to it because I thought, you know, I'm more on that side of it, Al. Like, I like when things get deconsolidated. I'd rather be on that side of things. And when it's real centralized and controlled. And when you think about where we've been in the church history, in our ancient Christianity course you have a deconsolidation that's been happening really. I would argue since Constantine. And then you have the Great Schism, then you have the Reformation movement and then you have all these things. This is kind of birth of centralized authority. Centralized power in religion now is being dispersed out and it's being fractured and. And that power structure is. Is just moving, moving out. And I that. But it's important to understand that because that preceded how we then saw these guys move into self governance.

[Al]

Yeah, I thought it was really interesting because obviously, you know, I know about the Great Awakening.

[Corey]

I've.

[Al]

I've heard about Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield and all these people, but I thought it was interesting how they set it up to talk about kind of why it took place and how it became to be that. And it says as wealth and security grew in the colonies, a spiritual lethargy crept in and the spirit of Puritanism faded in intensity. Which is really what, you know, catapulted the Great Awakening. And even thinking it back to ancient Christianity, the course we just did in three hundreds, this is, you know, 1400 years later. It was the same thing after they were. Once they were. Once they stopped being persecuted, the same kind of spiritual lethargy kicked in. And just thinking about that as humans of how when we get comfortable, we do seem to kind of creep back into just being more so lethargic in our faith. And I thought that was interesting of how the Great Awakening started in America was when people kind of just became complacent. And it was the same thing that happened, you know, 1400 years ago when after Christians weren't. Weren't persecuted as intensity, as intense as they had been. So I thought it was a. It was, it was an interesting kind of parallel to what we had just studied from thousand years before that.

[Corey]

Yeah, very similar. What about you, Luke? What was your take on the.

[John Luke]

Just generally I was blown away by I think the amount of theological and religious and political like thought that was going on at this time and like reading these things, I just like never read of like the George Whitfield stuff, the Ben Franklin stuff and like how does church and your religion and more morals like affect policy and was just really incredible. I took like a ton of notes that we'll. I think we'll get into later. The revivalism stuff though, I really liked it and I think I'm like y'. All. And ten more on the. The Ben Franklin side of like I see some like revivals. I mean I think like a few years ago it was what, what, six years ago or so like right around co time I feel like there was like, there's revival in America. You know, there's a big thing. There was a praying in that church at the colleges and college campuses were praying and, and you know, you kind of like heard exactly the same arguments going on, you know, back here in the 1700s. Like some people are like, oh, that's just like emotionalism. And then you hear other people like, no, like that's the Holy Spirit, like moving through these people, you know, and like this is going to change America forever. And I think that like I was thinking about it in compared to like what I see at Camp Chioka and like summer camps in general. Like me growing up going to other retreats and like camps. There was aunt of the camp that I went to. It was always this like big emphasis on like this like one like emotional response night. And like, you know, you've got your youth pastor and he's like pushing you to like get baptized. And there's like music and loud like all this stuff. And it's, it's supposed to be like this big emotional night. And you tend to see and I've seen in camps, like a lot of kids get baptized or a lot of kids pledge to, you know, change their life or whatever, whatever variety of, you know, pledge that you were, you're giving that night and then you like don't see a big change, but you do see some change. And I think that's like the revival that was happening here. And just revival in general is. It's not like it's a long term thing for like everyone who's involved. But I think you have these like key people that come from this revival that do like make lasting impact. Like I see at camp, like out of the, you know, if we have a hundred kids and thirty of them give their life to Christ that night or whatever. Which I don't, I don't have these like big emotional nights at camp like we used to. And I don't push like for that because I know this happens. But say you have like 30 kids give their life to Christmas. Maybe one of them is going to like keep that religious zeal moving forward and like make an impact. But that's great. That's one of them. You know, that's why I'm hesitant at that normally at camps and I think that big retreats and stuff, I don't see think people, it is the lasting impact people think it is, but it does make impact. And like in this like revitalist revival revelation context, I think you do see the needle move in America of like a. With these sermons from, like, George Whitfield and from Jonathan Edwards that, like, we're still reading about. We're still reading these sermons, so they're still making impact.

[Corey]

That's a great point. We want you to sign up, take the course with us for [e-mail] Zach, I was wondering, you made the point about the kind of the centralized power, and they made a point in the lecture about this Great Awakening. The primary audience of the Awakening were, they said, women and people, lower class in the culture at the moment. And I just wonder if that's the same thing, kind of what you're talking about. In other words, the appeal was for them because they weren't a part of the aristocracy that was there, the leadership. Maybe. It's kind of like every wave that comes along, it's people that are disenfranchised and don't have much, that are maybe more open to God or more open to the opportunity to see what they see around them. I don't know. I just, I found that was interesting when they said that. It lodged in my mind. I thought, well, you know, that's the way it is today. A lot of times it's hard to get people who have worldly success to be open to the gospel message or open to this thing about we need more. Because they're thinking, well, I'm doing pretty well, you know, and I may or may not have some sense of faith, and so I don't really need to be that spiritual. Spiritual. Whereas some other people who are maybe in a tougher situation are open, which is, you know, why prison ministries are great or, you know, or some other thing. So I don't know, is that kind of what you were thinking in terms of the. Part of the makeup of the, of the Great Awakening?

[Zach]

Yeah, I'm probably more whit filled than even Edwards. But as this awakening awakens, then, yeah, that's what you see. These revivals are being held in fields and they're being held in the places where the disenfranchised, the marginalized, and, and it's just taken root. Right. I think it, and here's the thing, though, about the Great Awakening, I, you know, it was a movement of the Spirit. And I think that's the big thing that we have to keep in mind with all of this, that, that the Holy Spirit moves. And that was one of the big takeaways from the Great Awakening, is that that God's going to do what he's going to do and he's going to move where he wants to move. And are we receptive? Are we going to have an experience of. And, and it's experiential. It's not only experiential in Luke was talking about with the camp high, which I've experienced that too. Like John Luke. I went to Camp Chioka and had a camp high. You know, I did air quotes and I look back on that now and think, well, was that superficial? It was more superficial than, than you know, the last like a 30 year collective walk with Jesus. But it, but it's part of my walk. So if I remove those experiences then, then I don't have my walk, you know, I don't have who I am. So I think it's a, it's a both and, but I do think there's a major shift here in the American culture which then gave way to the rise to kind of denominations and all that, which I'm a fan of. And I could be wrong. I mean I do hear strong arguments for, you know, the liturgies of old tradition. And you see a big move back now, particularly guys, you know, yalls age moving back into traditions like Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism or maybe even the Anglican Church. And in a lot of ways I'm sympathetic to that and that resonates with me. But I would say that in my heart I believe in what happened during the Reformation movement and I believe that God has continued to deconsolidate his church. And I think that we're, I actually believe we're now going to move into another era of massive deconsolidation because the Holy Spirit lives in the bodies of believers. I mean this, this is Jesus's whole teaching that the temple structure, the central like location of God's presence is about to come to a screeching halt, which it did in 8070. And now what's going to happen is that the Spirit of God is going to just, just like spread throughout the globe through individual people now. And I think that continues to be the trajectory of the kingdom. So this is cool for me to actually see, you know, how that happened in our own country.

[John Luke]

Yeah. To add on to that when I say that about like the camp High and about, about what was going on there, like there was lasting impact and you obviously see the lasting impact, just not the like immediate impact that I think you would think when you think about like revival, you know, but this it. So listen to this episode and talking about the different denominations and the different churches and, and how it was these Sermons were bringing, or these pastors and speakers were bringing people from all different churches together to hear these messages and starting to realize like we're all Christian and. But we can go to different churches like you. It is so clear to me how that develops over the next 200 years to where we are today, you know, and with all like the different churches and all the different denominations. And I think to me though, I, I kind of think, I don't know if I, if it's the opposite of what you're saying, if I'm, I don't know if I'm agreeing with you or disagreeing with you, but I think that there is a. I'll say what it is and then you can, you can

[Zach]

say where I actually think it's. Tell me what it is and I'll tell you.

[John Luke]

Yeah.

[Al]

What he means is if you're right or wrong.

[John Luke]

Yeah, right. I think we are going to see a time of church consolidation in the sense of like the separate groups of churches and separate denominations are going to start combining because I think that we've like shifted too far the other way a little bit in general. Like I think the principle that we can attend any local body that we want and still be considered Christian and that we can agree to disagree with someone in another church across the road but still consider them saved and as part of our same as Christian brothers and sisters. I think that like thought is what makes Protestantism and like our culture and our culture of Christian and American Christianity like so unique and so powerful and so amazing. But I think that like we kind of got to a time where we stopped thinking that like the denomination started to becoming more separate and we started splitting on these like you know, reform, predestination, Presbyterian versus Baptist, you know, versus method. Like I think that we started to like split up but now I think that all the churches and dons dominational type movement is kind of like bringing everyone back to this sense that they had, they were having at this time that we're all one by believers, no matter where you sit on a Sunday morning.

[Al]

But if you, if you consolidate it or deconsolidate it, wouldn't you technically both end up at non denomination or no,

[Zach]

if you what I'm saying, like if,

[Al]

if you end up having a mass unity or you split apart from, from denominations, wouldn't you both end up up technically being non denominational or no.

[Corey]

Which I think non denominational was mentioned is number one.

[Al]

Is the number one. Yeah, that's what he said.

[Corey]

The number one group now is Non denominator.

[Zach]

Yeah, I mean, I think you could. I mean, I think that, that, that the idea of a denomination is that you have a central hub to essentially say this is our belief system. I mean, it's kind of hard. I mean, it's kind of hard to truly be non denominational because if you have a theological distinctive, then you're kind of putting. And that we. And we all do. Right. I mean, we grew up in the churches of Christ, at least not all of us did, but me and Al more so than you two. And, and in the churches of Christ, we were non denominational. There was no convention, there was no governing board. Every church is autonomous. But would you say that we had a shared. Al, would you say that we had a shared.

[Corey]

I mean, it was a very denominational, non denomination.

[Zach]

Yeah, because it wasn't written down. Yeah, but I mean, I mean, it was. Yeah, it was there. We had our theological distinctives. In fact, it's funny because we were probably the most sectarian group of all the groups that I interacted with, because we actually believe. I grew up believing that we were the only ones going to heaven. I mean, I was. I was taught that when I was a young kid that, that if you weren't Church of Christ, you weren't going to heaven. But we were not denominational. Yeah. I mean, so it's kind of funny how that worked out, but when in

[Corey]

fact, so much so, there's the running joke, mostly with the Baptist. The running joke was when you get to heaven, they said, who's that group over there? And they said, oh, don't bother them. They think they're the only ones here.

[Zach]

Oh, yeah, don't say anything.

[Corey]

Don't say anything. That was kind of a running joke. But no, I think, I think, Luke, you definitely have merit in what you're saying. And I think our family is a pretty good example of that. I mean, like, like Zach said, we come from different backgrounds, but because of a. A national television show, I mean, we have now these opportunities to go. And I don't know about y', all, but nobody asked me really what I wear, what my background was or anything. I just, I roll in and talk about Jesus and everything's different from anything I've ever seen. But it's great. It's very ecumenical, which I think is part of. Was part of Franklin's thing. Like, you know, he didn't seem like, to be a super religious guy, kind of just, you know, look at his deal. But he, but he understood the power of it. He Understood God and Christianity and what is needed for the nation. It's like he just had this vision that he knew we could be a people. And so that kept moving him towards this United States concept, but he knew God had to be a part of it. And so he was very. You know, he seemed to vary a complimentary idea, but he liked the idea of we're all going to get along in the same vein and not split ourselves off. So you got to be careful.

[Zach]

Yeah, I mean, the word ecumenical or ecumenicism, you got to be a little careful with it. I would say I'm ecumenical, but then it. Sometimes when you use that word, people think you mean that. Oh, this is everybody, right?

[John Luke]

Can you. Wait. Can you give us a definition? Yeah, wait, Zach, can you give a definition of ecumenical?

[Zach]

I'm gonna look one up.

[Corey]

This.

[Zach]

I had to do an accurate definition the way I would do it. Oh, you did have to. Well, I mean, when I said it

[Al]

was one of the answers on the quiz.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's a broad. Like, it's more of a. Like, it's like a broad involvement. Like, it's like. We're not, like, okay, we're. We have a big tent. It's more of a big tent. What is your definition, Matt?

[Corey]

This one. The AI definition is initiatives. Movements are attitudes that promote unity, cooperation, better understanding among different Christian denominations or churches. It often describes services, councils, organizations aimed at bringing diverse Christian traditions together. So.

[Zach]

Yeah, but you're right.

[Corey]

Broadly, the word means universal, worldwide. But, you know, specifically, I think what we're talking about in this context was the idea of getting along together is what I. Is my application.

[Zach]

But there are universalists in the Christian faith, and I'm not. I mean, I believe that they're like, there's. I have. I mean, I'm ecumenical in the sense of. I mean. Yeah. I mean, I would probably count people as brothers that are in denominations and that a lot of people. I don't know about that. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not, like, picking winners and losers, first of all, But. But I think that. But at the same time, like, I'm like, I. I don't believe in the teachings of the.

[John Luke]

Of.

[Zach]

Of any universalism. I don't believe that. I don't. I believe in a triune God. I believe in a bodily resurrection of Christ. I believe that Christ was deity. I mean, these tenets of the Christian faith that once you, like. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna share communion at a church that wouldn't teach, for example, that Christ wrote. If they said, oh, this is Christ was an idea. No, Christ was a person. Bodily resurrection. These are core tenets of the Christian faith. And so you hold on to that. But back to what's happening here, though. You know, Jonathan Edwards is a key figure in American history, and I didn't like this guy for years because I had read that sermon which was mentioned in this lecture, A sinner in the hands of an angry God.

[Corey]

And it's quite the read. Did y' all read? I read it. It's.

[Zach]

It's. It's not for the faint of heart. And there. And, And I. So I'm like. I mean, because. Because my dad used to call. My dad said he wrote a paper when he was at the school of preaching on this, on the sermon, and, and the title of the paper he changed the name of it was God in the Hands of an Angry Sinner. And I thought. Which I thought was pretty hilarious, whatever. But, but you. I mean, so I had this thing in my mind about Jonathan Edwards that, you know, but I, I think I understand what he was doing with his sermon now, that he was calling a. A, a generation out of lethargy. I mean, he was calling a generation out of just sitting back and just like, like the spiritual, like, spiritually dead generation. And so the language that he's using, I mean, it is loaded. I mean, it's not like. So. But, but years later, I read a book that someone wrote about Jonathan Edwards, and I really, really liked it. And, And I was like, man, this is really good. Which made me then go read the book that it referenced, which was religious. I think it's called Religious Affections. And one of my favorite books I've ever read and honestly has shaped my theology more than almost any book I've read. And, and the basic premise of Edwards whole, like, ministry and everything that he was actually trying to do was just to say that it's kind of like John Piper's has a. A ministry called Desiring God. And one of his famous lines is that God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him. And that's a clever saying, but the idea behind this is that my happiness and God's glory are not on separate parallel tracks. They're actually one and the same. So God is actually glorified in. In me when my affections are bent and yielded to him, when I. When I want what God wants. Like. Like when I. When I desire him and I want to taste him and see that he's good, that's when God's glorified most in me. And, and I, that's. That just transformed my whole entire faith. And I'm not even a Calvinist. I'm not. But I'm telling you, that idea that came out of Edwards, I think that the Holy Spirit was just like, like a funnel just speaking through this man in this particular thing. And I think that's what brought a generation to its knees in a good way. And they're into their knees and humility to say, to say, God, we want to experience you. And it paved the way for guys like Whitfield then to come along and say, well, yeah, you're not saved because you're a member of the Presbyterian Church. And they told you that you're not saved because you're saved the way you enter the kingdom of God. The same way Jesus told Nicodemus, what did he say? You got to be born again.

[John Luke]

Born again.

[Zach]

And so that pro. So it is a, it is a, a private experience in some regard. It has public consequences by the way of the renewal of the earth. But, but there is it. We do have to come to Christ. Like, like I have to come to Christ. I can't be saved based on what my dad did and my kids can be saved.

[John Luke]

But George Wasfield sermon that's included in here, the Kingdom of God. It is so good. Like I've never read it before and it, I mean just line after line of just absolute mind blowing stuff. And this is like the first one I wrote down, which is the first one that similar what you're saying now talking about baptism. He says, dear friends, take care that you not make Christ. Take care that you do not make a Christ of your baptism. For there have been many baptized with water as you were, who are never savingly baptized with the Holy Ghost. Like, and then he kind of goes on to talk about just like don't depend on your orthodoxy, your traditions, your things you're doing to, to be an indicator of your, of the Holy Spirit inside of you. Your relationship with God, your saving grace is through your relationship with God, not through the physical acts of things that you do every day. Like those things aren't going to save you.

[Zach]

And the emphasis on the Holy Spirit is paramount here. That the, I mean their emphasis, the. These men who instigated. I say that or through whom the Holy Spirit instigated the Great Awakening, they emphasized heavily the role of the Spirit. And I think this is interesting because when you read the Scriptures and you look at kind of the eschatological unfolding of the scriptures. It is a deconsolidation of the priesthood. And we have a new high priest. Go read the Book of Hebrews. We have a new high priest. The levitical priesthood, Hebrews 7 could not bring perfection. The writer's very clear about that. If it could have, then why would the scripture say there needs to be another priest that's going to come in the order of Melchizedek? Who then is the defined as Jesus, who is the high priest? And the Hebrew writer basically says, hey, here's the good thing about Jesus versus all these other priests. He doesn't have to make atonement for his own sin because he doesn't have any. And then the second thing that's really good about him is, is when he's resurrected, he. Because he's resurrected, he didn't die. He'll never die again. He has an indestructible life. When these other priests, there's a lot of them because they had to keep reinstituting new priests because they would die out. Not with our high priests. And so because of that, that's why Peter says that we are a royal priesthood. It's just total deconsolidation. Just push it out. And we are also the temple in whom the Holy Spirit lives. And so when you start to think about these people in the plains and in the fields and these marginalized women and children and they're just falling on their face before a holy God and they're coming to know him personally for the first time outside of the context of, of institutional controlled religion. They're coming to know Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Man, think about the political implications that then will follow. Then you start to understand the whole basis for the American system. Wait a second. This is about the deconsolidation of power that started with a spiritual awakening and then resulted in political change. And so it's one of the reasons why you can't separate the politics from the religion or from God. Because if there's a true renewal movement, then we're going to see changes in politics as well. And in this case, it was. I mean, we know where it's going to end. It's going to end with the complete destruction of the monarchy and the power put into the hands of people.

[Corey]

So we want you to sign up. Take the course with us for [e-mail] yeah, there was a quote in there, Zach. It was the rising of the spirit also accompanies the rising of liberty. I thought that was A really good quote, because it's the same idea. It's really interesting. See, I love the idea that you mentioned that, about the. That it took place outside. You know, it's out in the fields because you can't get 30,000 people in the building. I mean, you know, we can now because we have stadiums. You know, Sadie's spoken to stadiums full of people. But, you know, it's hard to do. And back in this day, obviously you couldn't do that. And yet this movement was there. And, I mean, we all know how hard it is to draw a crowd. And yet, you know, 30,000 people, they made the point that, I mean, that'd be 3 million, over 3 million people if you did it by our population today. But I was just thinking. So I spoke a few weeks ago up in Illinois. It was a place called the Pasture. And I thought, well, that's pretty cool. And I just saw the name. I thought, you know, sheep and pasture. And when I'm driving to this place and it's out in the middle of nowhere, and it was literally in a pasture. And so. So I met the pastor and I said, so. So is that why you named the pasture? Because you're out here in the middle of a pasture? He said, well, actually, me and 11 other people, there were 12 of us during COVID felt so isolated. We couldn't meet. We couldn't. You know, we were at some place near here. So we just came out in this pasture and met outside, you know, because they're not gonna tell us we can't meet outside, you know, and we were six feet apart, blah, blah, you know, all that, that. And the next week it was 40, and then a few weeks after that, they were over a hundred. And when I was there speaking. So this had been six years ago, there were over a thousand people in this pasture. Of course, now they have a building. But I just thought, well, that's kind of what we're talking about here. We're talking about a movement of God out of centralized power that says, here's what you can or can't do. And then people just, you know, embrace that freedom in a spiritual sense. That then led to everything else that happened in our country. It's only 250 years old from just after. When we're reading here and look at all the different waves that have come along. There were other great awakenings back in the west and westward expansion and even the Billy Graham era, which is in the 20th century, you look and see what happens, and you're just like, man, I see some of those pictures when I. When I go and visit the COVID or different things, you know, from their background in the Grahams. And I just look at those pictures and him speaking to. He was in some places, you know, there were 50,000 people at this event, and you're just like, you know, there have been a lot of waves that come along. And so I'm just glad we get to be at a place that's open to the Holy Spirit, because Chad Rosha, we had him on the podcast Zach on the regular Unashamed, and he was talking about how most of the rest of the world is still under persecuted situations for Christianity, and yet here we are in America, still living out what was started right here, which is a great blessing for all of us.

[Al]

Yeah, I thought that 20 to 30,000 people, equivalent to 3 million, was crazy. I don't know if any of y' all think like this, but I. When I heard that on the lecture, I was like, man, I wish I had a time machine to just imagine Ben Franklin with his bifocals, like, looking around and then just pacing off. I was like, this is the most Tupac thing I've ever heard. Facing off, like, diagonally. Like, there's probably 30,000 people here.

[Corey]

Because he's, like, scientific thinking.

[Al]

Like, just, if I could go back in time and, like, be in that field and be like, oh, there's Ben Franklin. He's just like, 1. 2. I thought that was so funny.

[Corey]

2. Papa, by the way, for those of you uninitiated, is Corey's dad. And he's a very numerically driven man. He can put everything he processes out. So that would have been a very. I read that.

[John Luke]

I heard that.

[Al]

I was like, that was so something Tupac would have done.

[Zach]

If you read some of the. The stories around Jonathan Edwards revivals, I think about him being very buttoned up, you know, I mean, and I think what. What. I wonder what those were like. But if you read some of the history on these, what, he would show up and he would preach and that there would be just collective fainting and outcries and outpouring and just. They just like screaming and weeping. So people are actually. It's very interesting because they're come. It's a. It's. These are like. I mean, I won't say they're charismatic, but they. But the way that they were described would be like a Pentecostal revival. Yeah. I mean, but it was centered in people coming to grips and maybe a realization of their own sin. Which is interesting, right? And so then the hope is them obviously in Christ when we come and we ask Christ to come in. But it's one of the things, and even in Christian filmmaking that I've, I've thought about a lot is when we make Christian art, we want to downplay that fall. We don't, because it's going to cover the wash over that. Don't. They don't want to be. It's a little dirty, it's gritty. But man, when you come to the living God, you kind of have to deal with this. You got to look inside and be like, man, I'm actually guilty of something and I'm in a, I'm not in a good place and I can't approach the throne of God with confidence. And that's one. So how, how do I do that? And the solution, obviously the answer is, is in Christ alone. And I, I, to me, to be able to see that type of mass repentance and then to think about that, out of that mass repentance, it was a mass repentance, let's just face it, out of that mass repentance of sin and then a turning to Christ. Multitudes of people, a generation of people. That was the, that was the genesis of the whole American spirit, American experiment. Although it wasn't really an experiment, it was ordained by God. But like, this is what paved the way for prosperity. This is what paved the. I'm not saying that's why we do it, but it's just interesting to see the fruit of this type of awakening. The fruit of it was not that desperation. The fruit of it was not to collapse in on yourself. The fruit of it was not, I'm gonna now live in shame and just go into a hole and hide. The fruit of this type of confession of sin was that James 5:16. It was the healing of the nation. And so the birth of a nation. And as a result of that, I think about, we got our sins in America for sure. But, but man, can you, you can't quantify how much liberty for human beings have, has come out of, out of, out of the American system of what was developed right here in our lands. And that to me is, is so encouraging and so powerful and I'd love to see it happen again. I'd love to see the next evolution of that.

[Corey]

And they made the point. Zach, one of the guys that was being interviewed made the point that you've made several times about the difference between the American Revolution and the French Revolution being in essence, because one had God and one didn't. And, and you see the way they played out very differently, even in. In what now is. Would be considered the short term. But yeah, you're right, it's. It's an interesting idea, and it's a biblical one that you get freedom from surrender. And it just, you know, it doesn't seem logical from an earthly standpoint. But that's exactly what happens. I mean, when you surrender to God, you find freedom, and the Bible tells us that. But that's exactly what happened here. When you see that surrendering of wills to God, you saw this idea of true freedom, and not just, you know, not just freedom to live, but freedom from tyranny, you know, and being forced to fight wars they didn't even believe in, which, you know, which we'll get into on the next podcast. So, yeah, it's really interesting, the concept and the idea and the waves of it, because as soon as you get that success, Zach, you were talking about, then a lot of times you have to be humbled and reminded again, it's not you, it's God. So then you got to go through the whole process over again because, you know, you get a generation that forgets God, which again, is biblical history. Right? That's what happened to the people of God over and over and over again. Be sure and sign up and take this course with us for [e-mail] yeah,

[Al]

and our last few minutes. I want to talk about old Charles Chauncey for a second because he was a critic of Whitfield, but what was Yalls perspective on him and kind of his. Where he was coming at from his perspective on his criticisms of kind of the emotionalism?

[Zach]

Yeah, I, I thought it was very cynical. I think he was threatened. I thought he was super threatened. I think he was jealous 100%. Like, this is what you see. Like, you see this when anytime the Holy Spirit moves and wants and, and. And he wants to deconsolidate, then what do people do? They, they rush back to their creeds, they rush back to their, to their, their confessions. They rush back to things that aren't even in the. They're not. They're not. These aren't inspired. I, I appreciate them all, but like, they rush back to the centralization of it all. And I, yeah, I think, I think he was threatened. I think he was totally threatened by what God was doing because, I mean, you can't compete with that. And we lose our power when we come before him. We, we lose our power. We lose Our influence, we lose it all because it's not ours to begin with. And so, yeah, I'm a little more. I'm not on the. I'm not on the team, Chauncey. And, and also I, I kind of appreciated the way that. Because, you know, some of this has like, some, like, some reenactments. And so the, like, his voice, I love that they made it like, super kind of snarky and sarcastic because I could just feel. Because it was just dripping with just arrogance. You know what I mean?

[Al]

Well, I did have a thought because, you know, it talked about how the Americans were split between the old lights and the new lights, and the old lights were, you know, more Covenant Theology and the new lights were, you know, emphasized personal conversion. And I was thinking, I was like, what would Zach be? Because Zach loves to talk about Covenant theology. And I was like. I was like, well, Zach would be like the old light bulb with like, like a flicker of the new light.

[Zach]

Yeah, no, I definitely am.

[Al]

You would remain in the Covenant theology, but you would also love the personal conversion.

[Zach]

Well, Covenant theology doesn't. Is not at odds with the personal conversion. Covenant theology.

[Al]

Well, that was the problem at that point, though. They had. They had formed these two camps, which is why Chauncey was so. Was so critical.

[Zach]

Well, you got to keep in mind Covenant theology is actually more Calvinism than is anything else.

[Al]

I'm just saying what the show notes, I'm reading what the study guide says.

[Zach]

Yeah, I think that's probably. I'd have to look at the study guide, but I don't know what they mean. I don't know what they mean by.

[Al]

It says many American congregations split between the old lights who emphasize covenant theology and the new lights who emphasize personal conversion.

[Zach]

So Covenant theology.

[Al]

Yeah, that was what I was saying.

[Zach]

Yeah. Covenant theology, though, is, is. Is. Is also called biblical theology. And I don't even mean it. I don't. That sounded like condescending. I mean, I think it's.

[Corey]

Thank you, Professor Chauncey.

[Zach]

No, no, I think it's just the idea of what we've been talking about with the kingdom. This is what I'm saying. Like the, the idea that Christ is the fulfillment of all of Israel's promises, that. That all things are fulfilled in Christ, that. That we are the temple of the Holy Spirit built upon the cornerstone of the temple. Who's Jesus. It's not some dispensations that we moved into or through or. It's none of that. That there's a seamless thread throughout the entire scripture from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22. And it's beautiful. And so is God going to renew the entire creation? Is salvation broader than just my own personal conversion? Yes, God will. He says it, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. And he says in Romans 8 that the sons of God are going to be the ones who actually are the agents that are implementing this. God's doing this through the sons of God, which is why the creation itself is.

[Corey]

Is.

[Zach]

Is. Is yearning eagerly, waiting for the sons of God to be revealed. And so that's all true. But in order for me to be a son of God, to collectively renew the heavens and the earth, well, I gotta have an end of it. I mean, I gotta come to know Christ. And so it's both, and it's not one or the other.

[Corey]

There you go. I knew we'd get there. We're out of time. Thanks for going on this journey with us. We got one left. One more episode left for this particular subject. And I'm kind of like, Christian. I hate to stop. I kind of want to go right into the American Revolution. But we're gonna. We're gonna go back and pick up what we left off for ancient Christianity after that. So we got one more. We'll have the challenge of war in the next one. So we'll see you next time on Unashamed. Powered by Hillsdale.

[Al]

Powered by Hillsdale.

[Zach]

Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, Powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamed for hillsdale.com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.