← Unashamed with the Robertson Family
Unashamed with the Robertson Family
Ep 1344 | America Has Forgotten That Freedom Requires Skin in the Game
00:49:20
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- [00:02]
A
I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to the Unashamed podcast. It is our Friday episode with Hillsdale College. We're taking these free online courses. I can't believe they don't charge for these. You guys can check them out@unashamedforhillsdale.com we're in colonial America, and I want to tell you our friends at Hillsdale College have a new documentary coming out to theaters. It's called Revolutionary America, narrated by Tom Selleck, the icon. It feels like the next chapter after this course we're taking right here on colonial America. It tells the real story of how this country started. It's not some watered down version either. It's a real deal. How ordinary people risk everything. And against all odds, they actually pulled it off and built something that's lasted nearly 250 years. And with that anniversary coming up, it's a story that people need to understand. It's one we need to pass on. And this is one of those stories that you want to see on the big screen, not just stream it later. And it's only in theaters for a limited time, so you guys can get your tickets at Hillsdale Edu Film and we will put the link in the show. Notes Al everybody, welcome. It's good to see you guys again.
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B
It's good to be here.
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C
It's great to see you again. Zach. Thanks for being here today.
- [01:11]
A
Yeah, Chris, I wouldn't miss it for the world. Thank you for your sarcasm.
- [01:15]
B
Christian and I are holding down the studio.
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C
I was not being sarcastic. No, it's actually good to see you because last episode, John Luke was big and you were tiny, but now you're big and John Luke's tiny on the screen. So it actually is good to see you.
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B
John Luke is coming back to us from parts unknown.
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D
He's on a little parts unknown, the top bunk of a bunk bed. I actually could not see y' all last time at all. Now I can see you this time.
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B
Oh, really?
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D
So, you know, I was just talking into the air, just blind.
- [01:44]
B
That was impressive. You did well. I did not know that. That's not easily done when you can't see the people. But that's an old pro. So we're glad Luke is with us today as well, wherever he's at. You know, it's interesting. Cause on the last podcast, we were talking about the Great Awakening and the spiritual fuel that's led us to where we're gonna get into today, which to me becomes like a huge test anytime there's, you know, you go through a renewal period in your life, there's always gonna. Seems to be a test coming right after, maybe just for authenticity. You know, the b. You know, we are tested. And I thought about. Zach, you made a comment about thinking about this in film, you know, because obviously, you know, producing things, other ways to be able to share the gospel and show the power of God, there's different ways to be able to do that. And so by a few years ago, you and. And I started with you and I then and dad, and then has moved now to Willie and Corey and what they're doing as well with beyond just television shows, but movies, documentaries. And you mentioned that about the power of telling a story with flaws, because that's what happens, right? Nothing's perfect. And so we happen to be recording this, but by the time this comes out, it'll probably be out. But Lisa and I, we had a movie that our production company joined with, the one that's doing the Duck Dynasty Revival production company, and produced a movie about mine and Lisa's life. And so I got to see it for the first time this week and a copy before it releases. And it's a hard watch. I mean, I gotta be honest. It was, you know. And I mean, you live it, so, you know, it. We talk about it all the time. It's part of our testimony. But, Zach, when you see it, you know, you see actors playing yourself. And I gotta say, the actors that played us did a great job, because halfway through the movie, I felt like I was watching myself, you know, going through what I was going through. And it was interesting because we had talked about the. I think John Luke had read a quote from a Kingdom of God Whitfield sermon about baptism. And it was interesting because Lisa only really cried at one part, you know, us watching the movie. And it was when she was baptized for a second time. Because earlier in the film, she was baptized when she and I, you know, were right before we got married. And she describes it as getting baptized into the Robertson family, not really into Christ, because that was more her motivation at that point, and which was a lot of her thinking that wasn't right. And which is exactly what Whitfield said. I mean, if baptism is not to understand my submission to Christ, then it's for some other reason that's probably not going to yield fruit for you. But whenever she went through everything she went through in her life, and of course it's in the film, she comes to that point of true submission and revival for her. And then Paula, her best Friend baptizes her, which really happened. And it happens in the movie, and it's beautiful. And there's a song, it's called I Will Surrender that's being sung as it happens. And it's just a beautiful part of the film. But I looked over and that was what really got her, was that reminder of going back. And so we were talking about that even as a nation, as a people, I thought, man, that's just. It's individual lives that that make the turn. And so right after that, there's a scene that. Where mom and I. Mom is talking to me and, you know, about what I'm going to do because Lisa and I are split up. And I said, well, I don't know. I'm thinking about leaving. Which is exactly where I was at that point. And it was. And it was her in the film and in real life that reminded me the power of forgiveness, both in hers and Dad's life. But then also, Lisa had forgiven me in my worst years when I treated her terribly when we were very young, we were dating, and it was just, again, that reasoning of understanding we go through things so that we can then help other people. And so I do think that's one of the things that's helped America, flaws and all, to try to be a help for the world, is the idea that we've gone through a lot. And so this episode, and I'm a Christian, I thought the. This whole series, it's just gotten better as we've gone through it in terms of just the lectures. I've been more and more pulled in, which is hard to leave the narrative now because it's so good.
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C
I know I want to continue.
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B
And so when we get to this point, it's such a big test for the people. And it's right on the cusp of, you know, really our forefathers becoming a nation that now we're a part of. But I just couldn't help but relate that to, you know, my own spiritual journey and the idea that we fall short and we make huge mistakes and we have to be called back to doing the right thing. And so, you know. So those of you listening to our podcast on every Friday, I'd love for you to check the movie out. By now. It's out on Lifetime, so however you can. I wasn't that familiar with Lifetime movies. I have to be honest. I don't think I've ever seen one. So now I'm encouraging you to get Lifetime and check out our movie. If they're all like this one, because this is a. Quite the story. So Zach, kudos to you and her team and everybody. I, I was very, very pleased with how it turned out so.
- [07:18]
A
Well, it's, it, it, it does show though that the. Anytime you have something that's birthed into awakening, whether that be a spiritual awakening, whether that be the birth of, of America, you know, our independence, there's also like the pain, like the, the labor pain of coming through that which, you know, in, in Lisa's case, it was. In your case, all of our case, it's coming to the end of our self. The people who experienced those that. The great awakening, listening to the guys like Jonathan Edwards. Yeah. They would, they would feel the weight of their sin and they had to go through that to get through to the enlightening or that to get through to the light of Christ in them and, and then the American experience. Experiment. Experiment. The same thing. You know, we're heading into these wars now, so it look like things kind of get worse before they get better and before we even have an American revolution to go see watch a film about, by the way, we have to enter into to the French and Indian War. And that was a key part of kind of. It was a painful part of American history. It cost a lot. You know. I don't know if you guys had thoughts on that.
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D
My thought on the Virginia War, that I'd never. I just didn't know that it was a terrible thing in American history and a terrible thing that happened, but also was one of the big hurting points to creating what America is in the, the mindset of the settlers, the, the settlers at the time to say, like we are just a distinct group from Britain, which is. It was just interesting to me.
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C
Well, I didn't know. Yeah. Because obviously this whole lecture was pretty much a lot of it was around George Washington and, and the French and Indian War and the start of it, which if you want to go ahead and get in, get into that, because I was, I had no idea how the war started. Was that like common of, of like the whole translation thing? Was that. Is that common knowledge to people that that's how the war started?
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B
Never heard that before either.
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A
I didn't know.
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B
Yeah.
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C
That was just the craziest thing to me. It's like, I feel like today would be like a Saturday Night Live skit. Like George Washington's translator fails the nuance of one word.
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B
Yeah. And leads to a.
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C
It leads to.
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B
And what it was what 13 year war. I mean, it's like a long time
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C
like because George Washington's translator like didn't cover him on one word. And the nuance of what that word translated to these, to these French people, then it just bloodbath for a decade. Yeah, I'd never, I never heard that or that was just the craziest thing. To me that's how this war started.
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B
But you know, Zach, it's interesting because we talk a lot on regular, unashamed about nation building and we go back a lot to the Tower of Babel and language and you know how that confusion there had led to the separation of nations. And then of course we see God's nation come along in Genesis 12. And that is interesting that you could make a case that the entire American revolution started by not understanding French fully in one context and getting one word wrong, which led to the war that like John Luke said, really opened the minds. Because what's interesting about this war is so we were still British subjects, although we're not treated like British subjects. I mean it was very evident they were treating Americans like second class Brits because they were here. And so they were because they didn't fight the way they had always fought. And so these, Britain, the British troops that were coming over were treating, you know, our people terribly and they're up against the French. And it's really interesting because then when the revolution happens later, we know that the French then come to our aid against the Brits. And so it just goes to show you, you know, you think in a war situation they're fighting and it's kind of the old two continents, like they said, it's really just being fought out. The old French and British wars that have been going on for their proximity, they just move the battleground over here, but in it winds up they switch teams later anyway, you know, and so it is interesting the way it all.
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C
Yeah, I thought, I thought the lecture did a good job of, of kind of pulling out that nuance of how it seemed like, like England was protecting America, but it was actually just to control them. So I thought that was really interesting because I don't know if I necessarily would have thought that on the surface of, you know, they have all these plans and these things to where you seem like that's them wanting to protect the colonies, but it was actually just to get to control them. So I thought the lecture did a really good job of, of pulling that out and helping to understand the tension there.
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D
Yeah, the one example of that that I had never heard of is I don't remember exactly which one it Was. But the Americans captured the fort and, like, bunch of people died. They had this big victory and they held the city. And then England traded the city back to France for, like, an island in the Caribbean for, like, sugar. And I. That I would be so mad in that situation, like, if I was a Pennsylvanian or whatever.
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A
Whoever.
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D
I don't. Was. Whoever it was, if I, like, I went, you know, my friends died and I did all I could to have this. And then Britain was like, oh, thanks for giving that to us. We're going to trade that back for some.
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A
Some sugar.
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C
Well, what about. What about the story when. When George Washington was with General Braddock and then they were all losing the war, and George Washington's kind of like, looking around, and then they all start scalping the people that were already dead. And he's like, I'm out of here. His letter to his mom, he was like. It was like divine protection. It was just like, you know, because that was what they did at the time, you know, when. When people would die, they would scalp them. And I just. I just picture him, like, looking around as they're all scalping the dead people, and he's just, I think I might get out of here now.
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B
It reminded me so much. It remind me so much of dad because there's a. On the. On the original show, the Little Duck show, there was a scene where they're out getting. Catching frogs on a golf course. And so they're supposed to. Then the cops are supposed to catch them. And so Dad's like, no, he ain't getting me, boys. He's telling this to the people setting up, you know, the producers. And they're like, yeah, this is going to be funny, Mr. Phil. They're going to catch. He said, nope, never happened. Never would have got me. And so they're like, well, okay, so do you want to just slip. Waste it? He said, yeah, just leave it to me. So, like, in the scene, he, you know, everybody gets caught. The cops get them on the golf course for getting the golf balls and the frogs and blah, blah, blah, whatever the setup was. And dad just. You just see him slip away, you know, do the deal. And it happens later in the show as well. And it was really funny because I asked out about. I was like, did they tell you to do that? And he said, I don't know. He wanted me to get caught with the rest of. But, you know, good and well, son, I'd never get caught. So it's like he had this ability back from his old running days. To get away. But there definitely was something about Washington because he said he, what he had been. Four, four shots went through his coat and then two horses shot out from under.
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C
Yeah.
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B
I mean, you just think about that. The, the idea that he never. He didn't get shot like in the
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C
frozen river story when, yeah, he goes
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B
in the water and he's like, yeah, it was, you know, luckily I grabbed a hold of something like this guy.
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C
Well, then he woke up, then the river was frozen and they took the
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B
horses over and then just walked across. Yeah, it's almost, it's almost like larger than life kind of stories about Washington.
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A
Kind of shows you what, what the human spirit is capable of. You know, I mean, like, I think about. I might, man, I don't. Could we even survive some of the things that he went through, you know, but we can. Humanity can handle quite a bit. And those early guys, they were, they were beast. But it's interesting. I've thought about how that, how the, you know, American America was basically that theater for the global conflict, you know, between England and France, as you mentioned earlier, Al. And it's. Isn't that the case now, though, still, like that. That part of politics has continued on. You think about how many wars are fought that are really just proxy wars. I mean, I mean, Ukraine seems to be, you know, the west versus, you know, Russia and then Iran maybe the west versus China, that it's all these. But they, they use these different places in different conflicts as a way to kind of resolve or try to, I guess, conquer each other. The, the, the. The. The hiccup with the Americans. The American being the theater for all this though, was they, they. They did not anticipate what had already been like, seeded here in kind of the psyche of the, of the colonies. And that, I think was the biggest like, story that's going to come out of this is they both sides kind of underestimated really what, you know, what, what was happening over here because it was new and there wasn't really a context for a people who could or would want to govern themselves. What is it? What does that even mean? You know what I mean?
- [16:43]
B
Well, and even the. Zach, even the generation that had, had landed and the ones that survived, so many of them died. But what they learned, because now, remember, we're talking about a hundred. Over 100 years. So we're talking about a couple of three generations of people that have learned how to live in a rut, as dad would say, in a rough piece of real estate, you know, over here. This Is this is way different than the countrysides of Jolly O England, you know, or France. This was a rough neighborhood. And with. With all the Native Americans that were here as well and everything that they learned. So there was a. A toughness, a brutality. Certainly the warfare part of it plays a huge role in this, you know, what happens here, but then also happens in the American Revolution. And so, yeah, this is a. You're right. I think they just didn't realize what happens over the course of time and how it changes people, and they adapted to here. And Christian and I were talking about it in the break between our podcasts that these people that were on the edge of this thing, they were some rough individuals. I mean, they were way tougher than in probably anybody walking around here much today.
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D
Oh, that. That's what I was gonna say too. Like, they were rough people. Even like Sam Adams, who's, like, kind of known for being like a. Like later is known for being a kind of, like, smaller guy. Like, he was in charge of this, like, group of, like, thugs, essentially. And which is why it, like, was keeping the peace in town. And George Washington, like, doing all that, like, it was such a different level of. Yeah, like. Of disrupt compared to, like, the Europeans who were just, like, living it up. Like, thinking back to. I was thinking about Ben Franklin when he went to France, and they were like, he's like the noble savage. He's like this wild man from America. And like, that's Ben Franklin.
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B
Like, that's.
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D
That's not even close to George Washington. But, like, that was the perception of the Europeans of, like, of Americans. Like, they weren't even close. The Europeans are so comfy. It. They didn't even have the. Didn't know how pioneering and inventive and tough the Americans were at the time.
- [19:03]
A
Yeah, because, you know, you watch those old films or films about, like, the old war. War day, like the old wars, and you see them, they. They march out in the field and they. And they line up and they point their weapons at each other and they shoot. And one group falls down and they reload and they shoot. And I'm like, that's the dumbest thing. But we have been incubated in the kind of the American culture. We look at that and think that's ridiculous. But to them, the Brits, I mean, they're thinking this is gentlemen warfare. Right. And so the guys in the colonies, which. The French Indian War brought the colonies closer together. So there. There's a weird kind of dichotomy going on here that yes, they're building allegiance with each other, and they're also kind of connected with the homeland, England, to fight a common enemy. That. What is the saying? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. And so that's what's happening here. But the, but the colonial Americans, they're the ones that have the experience in just surviving. So it's. We actually will hide behind a tree when we shoot. And they're like, oh, that's horrible. You could never. Well, we're going to do that. We're not going to get shot. You know, I mean, and it was kind of that guerrilla warfare. That was one of the reasons why they were able to win. And, but, but so, so, but they weren't great fighters. But then also through that whole process of the war, what happens to the, to the colonial fighters and the militias, they, they actually get skilled in warfare and they get more of a common American identity. And so you can start to see that even though the Americans in the, in the colonies are on the same side as England, there, it's. This is like providing the necessary back backstory for what will happen later on. But I just thought that was interesting how, how they would kind of. The English would kind of snub their nose probably at the way the Americans were fighting. But then it was probably also like, but I'm glad somebody's doing it. You know what I mean?
- [21:06]
C
Well, that was how they lost one of the wars because they estimated There was like 300 people, but then they ended up being 900 because they were all hiding behind the trees and stuff.
- [21:15]
B
So why don't you sign up and take the course with us for free? Unashamedforhillsdale.com I like your point, Zach, about the warfare idea still being in these regional places. And you're right, even the Middle east, which we're currently involved in a situation, and it really does. It's the old balances of power. It's oil. It's, you know, it's all these other economies that, that matter and long history of things. And you're talking about the Persians and the, you know, the Israelis. I mean, that's going back to biblical days, you know, that these wars are being found and they still play themselves out into our political structure. So it is, it does. You know, the old deal of wars and rumors of wars. You know, I mean, it's been around ever since we've been. Ever since the nations. I mean, going all the way back to the Tower of Babel, which is powerful.
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A
Well, he, he. One thing Washington figured Out, too, in this. I was. We were talking about Washington is he was deeply formed by this war, particularly as he served under General Braddock. And what he. What he learned, I thought was just so interesting. So he's. And this is. I love this because you don't know what you're learning in the perceived failures or even successes, but he's watching the bravery of this man. He's like, that's impressive. But he's also seeing that he's so entrenched in the European warfare style that he's like, you're not. Like, there's no way that you can, like, win by bravery alone. You got to have a, like, strategy around this. And like, what. What. So Washington ends up becoming a genius in his own right, mainly because he was able to observe the bravery. Yes. Which I think is a key part of Washington's story as well. But also at the same time, like, learning to be strategic, which he'll later use whenever he fights the English with their European warfare style, which they were entrenched in. So you're seeing kind of all of this formation of a type of idea, type of thought. It's very organic. It's very deconsolidated. Everything is. It's. I mean, it's absolutely brilliant. And you can start to see now this is an identity that's starting to emerge in the American psyche.
- [23:32]
B
And it's. And it's back to that. That victory out of failure again concept we were talking about from the last episode in the spiritual side of it. Because, I mean, Washington experienced a lot. I mean, he was the reason they had the war to begin with, you know, because of a failure of a translator. But. And then these other. These losses and him barely escaping his life, all the stuff we've already mentioned. And when you get into the American Revolution, there's books written about all the different things that happened, just miraculous escapes and all the things that he does. So there's definitely this idea there was way more failure than victory until there was victory. And so it just. It seems to go back to this divine idea that when you. When you surrender your heart to something bigger, that allows you to see things and understand things in a different way. And I think pride was a big part of this, Zach. I think pride was the British pride that this is the way it'll be always. And then they wound up winning. And so then that fueled that even more. And I think that made them underestimate their own colonists now on steroids, which is why they wound up losing the war to the colonists, you know, same deal. I think it's pride, and I think when pride runs itself out of the minds of men and militaries or anybody else, then you're going to have a lot of defeat. The question is, do you learn anything from it? You know.
- [24:58]
A
Yeah. And also, I think this whole war, so this war, it exposes kind of this. I don't want to say incompetency, just like an obsolete old way of fighting war on the side of the, you know, the European, you know, established models and styles of warfare. That was definitely. It exposed those weaknesses for sure, but it also exposed kind of the weaknesses of the colony. One of the big weaknesses of the colony, which is essentially that. That. That the. They were. They were too deconsolidated. So we talk about deconsolidation a lot and how the American system, a system governed for the people by the people, the consent of the people, but they. They hadn't really. They. They needed something to kind of. Kind of bring them together. And so that Albany plan of union that Franklin brought in was a key movement here. Because what it. What it did is, as they're looking around, they're saying we. We need a. We need a. A more of a centralized representation. Because right now it's like, you know, it's a wild west out here. It's just, I mean, every man for himself, and it's great. We're governing ourselves. We need more of a formalized structure, though, that later will pave the way for how they're going to go against the monarchy that they all are, you know, still under that authority.
- [26:13]
B
Well, and even the results, you know, once the war was over and they signed the treaty, you see that the Brits were always about control because the first thing they did was start taxing and saying, well, you got to pay for this. I mean, you know, you got to put some pounds to the crown, you know, and they had already put so much into it. It was, you know, in the crown ever paid them back. But now it's like, we want more camera.
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C
Can't remember what it was, but it was like.
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B
Yeah, it was. It was the.
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C
The amount of money they gave versus what they got back in return was.
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A
It was.
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B
Yeah. One of them was one at Pennsylvania that had put in a 500, 000. It was like 500, 000.
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C
And they got back 60,000.
- [26:56]
B
And then they turn right around and start taxing attacks them. Yeah. And on the sugar and all the other stuff. Yeah. So it is this idea, to your point, Zach, it's really interesting because you're seeing the lines form that you do have to have some consolidation and unity but at the same time if you go too far then you get tyranny. I mean it's just, I mean it's just a razor's edge the entire time because you see this tyrannical monarchy that now is being led by Parliament. They're supposed to be of the people, for the people, but they don't consider the colonists to be, you know, worthy of that.
- [27:35]
A
Well, you see it, you see it in this way. So they win the war, which is great. Everybody claps and like thank you for you know, getting rid of the French. And then they, but they lose the, the goodwill of colonial America. They lose all that goodwill. And the reason why was because they racked up a massive war debt and there's. And to England's credit they're trying to find a way to get it paid for now. So they're going to say, well you're going to pay for it, you know. And so they over tax the people. But it wasn't really just the over taxation. The, the key thing was it was the taxation without representation. They didn't have a rep, any kind of representation in Parliament but they were being taxed heavily. And I think that was the big thing. It wasn't just the taxation because we're over taxed now. I mean I'm like, I'm looking at my house just, just my property taxes on my house of like almost quadrupled since I've owned this home. And but I, but I do have a voice and I can at least vote. And you know, we're voting people in power and you know, I try to make my voice known. Unfortunately my guys haven't been winning lately. That's why our taxes are so high locally. But, but they didn't have that, they didn't have that option. And so you can start to see that, that there's, that that resentment begins to really brew and I can understand why. Can you imagine if, if like you had no, I'm frustrated and I do have a vote. If I had no say whatsoever, that would be very difficult.
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D
It, it totally makes sense and how it all kind of shook down when you see that the Crown, the king or the Queen at the time or king, I actually don't know. The crown at the time saw America as a business investment like adventure and all the resources and all the people there as essentially like employees in this business. But they actually care about the land where the Americans saw themselves not as, like, employees in this business adventure, but as another county of England. Like, we're the same, whether you're in Boston or London. Like, we see ourselves as the same people, but the people in London did not see the people in Boston the same. They just saw that whole group as, like, they're a whole separate thing. They can live or die or lose or gain. Doesn't matter to us as long as the resources are coming back home.
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A
More than that, I think it was not that they're just employees. I mean, I think it was either either we are consenting to being governed by you and to being taxed by you, or we're slaves. And so that was kind of.
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B
It was.
- [30:16]
A
It was worse than just working for you. They're saying we're. If we. If we're. Because at least an employee gives you the consent, right? An employee gives their employer consent. And so when they did the Stamp act and they said, we're going to start taxing, you know, papers and printed materials in the colonies, we're going to tax all these things, goods and services or whatever we're going to tax. We're going to start levying a tax on you. You have no representation. We don't care what you say. We don't need your consent. We're going to take what we want to take. Well, they're like, well, that's a violation of our. Of our rights. And that means that we're slaves. And so then that's the underlying resentment that starts to brew and you. And it just starts to spread like a wildfire in the colonies, which you can imagine. You start taking people's money. I mean, that's the thing. You start taking people's money. I mean, it's. It's like I always said it to you. You know, most of my career, I got paid W2. I was a W2 employee, and so I would get my paycheck. I never really. I mean, at first I looked at the stub and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, they're taking that much out in taxes. Over the years, they started doing direct deposit, and I just quit looking at. There was a pay stub unless I got on there and looked. But if you had. If. If we got rid of, like, the. The withholding. I think it's called withholding tax. And people had to actually pay taxes like that. If they had to write a physical check and send that to the government or send cash, I think we'd have another revolution. You know, imagine if these people are showing up on your door, and they're knocking on your door and they're saying, give me the money now. And. And you haven't even even voted for these people. You haven't given them zero consent. I mean, that you. That. That the anger that was boiling over in this moment was palatable.
- [31:55]
D
Okay, I have a question for y'.
- [31:56]
C
All.
- [31:58]
D
If you're. Well, I'm gonna switch gears a little bit if that's all. Did you have something else?
- [32:01]
C
I was just gonna say, I guess there wasn't enough tobacco in Virginia to help cover the cost of the war.
- [32:08]
B
Yeah.
- [32:10]
D
So here's my question. Like, thinking about all this, and, like, it makes total sense. Thinking about the whole series as a whole. Like, it makes total sense, like, where we are as America now. Like, it really opened my eyes to, like, how we got here politically, religiously, in the church and all the different things. But the thing I'm thinking about is, like, how does this. How do I live out these, like, American values that I see the Founding Fathers talk about, that Ben Franklin talked about with, like, the. The virtues that he had, the virtues and thing. And bravery that George Washington shows, and the things that Sam Adams talked about and the things that George Woodfield talked about, like what it meant to be an American at the time. They had the ability to. To kind of like, put their money where their mouth is, because for them, it was live or die. Like, they had to live by their own morals. They live by their own morals, and they had, like, such fierce opportunity to do that. Whereas today, for the most. For the most part in America, it's not like a do or die situation. So, like, when we talk about, like, religious freedom or liberty or representation, like, it's almost kind of like a metaphor, you know, in our daily lives. Like, what is that? How do. How does that apply to, like, the average American?
- [33:41]
B
To me, that's a great question, because I often wonder if the founders. What they would think about America 250 years later. You know, just the. So much. So much good, so much wealth, so much has been built. Certainly the idea and the dreams of liberty are still here with so many people. But then the underside of kind of what you're describing, John Luke. And sometimes, whenever you have a lot of peace and prosperity, man, that's when you have inner struggles. And, you know, we were only. What I mean, Washington became president in 89 and ran right up until almost to 1900, and I mean 1800. And then you just. You only go just 50 years, and we had a Civil war. You Know, so you think out of that close, I mean, we're talking about just generationally, just right there, we would have understood that we would never want to do that. We would, as Zach described earlier, lining up against fields of our own people, you know, of these people that then had started our own country, and we were shooting each other in the most costly war we've ever had because everybody that died was an American. So. Yeah, I think it's easily forgotten, Luke. I think the idea we have to somehow, which we talk so much about this on Unashamed, is that we have to adhere to the kingdom of God, to rise above even our own citizenship in our country. That makes us better citizens because of that. But, man, that's hard to do, especially when there's humidity.
- [35:22]
C
It's the Ten Commandments, It's.
- [35:23]
A
Yeah.
- [35:24]
C
You know, I feel like I would even argue that so much of the Founding Fathers, a lot of. Yeah. I mean, their philosophies and their thought process come from God's original law to his people. You know, don't. Don't covet. There'd be no other gods above me. You know, people. You know, treat people with. With dignity and all these things. So. Yeah, I think a lot of the American values, you know, for us also fall in line with. With the Ten Commandments and. And how to treat people and, you
- [35:56]
B
know, love God or even the goal.
- [35:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I think, too, though, they. I. I think the problem is you can't. A lot of this. You can't muster up that type of virtue that these guys had. You can't just say, okay, I'm going to choose that kind of virtue. Now, if you look at the America that we have today versus the. At least the colonial America, why were they, like, where did this kind of passion come from? I mean, ultimately, where did this kind of passion come from in terms of, like, I'm willing to lose my life to fight for this kind of freedom? I think it came from two things. One, it came from the spiritual renewal that they had experienced. Right. So there was. There was a spiritual renewal happening on the positive side and on the negative side, they didn't want to lose what they had worked so hard for. Like, they. They had worked hard.
- [36:45]
D
They had.
- [36:46]
A
They had put blood, sweat, tears. Like, I mean, they have worked the land. I mean, these guys came over. You know, we. We've gone through the course now. I mean, like, when they came over here, this was. I mean, there's. There were no. There was. I mean, it was tough. Think about the Pilgrims. How Many people died during that first, you know, landing at Plymouth Rock. And like, it was like, that was like brutal. So you import all of that history, that recent history into what they have now. And they had ownership. The problem what we have today is nobody or a lot of the country doesn't have any skin in the game. And so a lot of people don't have, they don't own things. We've shifted to kind of a nanny state. And when you become really dependent on the government for all the things that you have, then the downside of that is that, yeah, why would you. There's no, I mean, yeah, I'll trade my freedom for security. They weren't going to do that because they were self made. And so I think that's probably the biggest thing is, is you can't just turn a switch and turn off like entitlement. And I can't. Sometimes I feel entitled in my life. I mean, I do, I'll be honest with you, when. But I can't just turn that off. It's the cultivation of the earth. It's me living out Genesis 1:28, when I'm actually cultivating the earth, when I'm, when I'm having kids, when I'm expanding, making families get. I got a house. I mean, the more skin I have in the game then the more like, passion that I have to make sure that my family's protected, my property's protected, that, you know, that we're like, that we can continue to have this type of liberty. So I think it's, it's not muster up the virtue. It's focus on the cultivation of the earth, focus on multiplying and having dominion. If you do that, then these other things will come. Come with that. They naturally are supernaturally come with that.
- [38:36]
C
That was really articulate, Zach.
- [38:37]
B
Very good. Sign up to take the course with us for free@unashamedforhillsdale.com that was not.
- [38:43]
C
Sorry, that was not a sarcastic comment. That was actually really ridiculous.
- [38:47]
B
No, it is good.
- [38:48]
C
You said everything I was thinking. Sorry, Al. You said everything I was thinking, but in a very clear, concise, smart, intellectual way.
- [38:56]
B
Yeah, that's what he does.
- [38:57]
A
Well, I look at, I look at, like I told Max this recently, who, you know, recently got married. You know, it's like I, I, like, like I didn't, I didn't tell my kids to get young. I, I never said that. I never even. We never really talked about that. But when they, they've made these decisions early on to get skin in the game and Like, I'm like, I like, like that. To me, that's what we need, more men. And you guys both did too. Like, no, we're going to create families early. We're going to create our own, you know, a dynamic early. We're going to create our own businesses early. We're gonna. You guys were cultivate. You guys were doing Genesis 1:28 earlier than a lot of people. And I. To me, that's. Man, that's the hope for the. For the country, that's the hope for the world is that we take our. Our mandate, our cultural mandate, that we take it very serious and that we understand our vocation.
- [39:51]
B
Yeah.
- [39:52]
A
Because you.
- [39:52]
B
When you look at the competing, the not theologies, but, you know, ideas, political doctrines out here now, you're talking about a move a lot of people want to move towards socialism and even some to communism, which are, to me, pretty failed ideas anyway. But it is 180 degrees away from what we're talking about in this course of the idea that we have this, as Sam Adams put this, natural law, and then even he included British law and biblical law in the idea that we weren't made to give control of our lives to someone else, you know, other than God himself. So, yeah, I just. It's amazing to me, and that's why I was thinking, Luke, your question was so poignant, because it is the ultimate thing when you look at your countrymen, you know, the people that have the same history in front of them that we do and want to give it all back and go. And it's so funny, a lot of these people are doing the no Kings rally, but you talk about wanting a king. You want the government to be your king. You want a king. You're saying no kings, but your actions are saying, we want to be taken care of. And all these things that are said to be a right, you know, whether it's healthcare, whatever, how do you pay for that? And it's just. It's a crazy mindset and. But I. That's one of the reasons why I'm grateful for Hillsdale, you know, being able to show flaws, but also show the biblical narrative that runs through this entire thing we're talking about, which is powerful.
- [41:21]
A
Yeah.
- [41:22]
D
I've just learned so much from these courses. I really have. I'm really glad we did this one.
- [41:27]
A
Well, it leads right into the 250th year anniversary of. Of the founding of America. And I think the, the. I. I think they've done a very fair job at explaining that this is A. I mean the whole path is, I mean there's lots of sins in it. There's lots of righteous accident. There's. It. I mean, it's a story. And like all stories, nothing is, you know, nothing is pure. Nothing is a hundred percent right. I think what you're seeing though is the is again, I use that word evolution a lot just because it does feel like an evolution. It's an ebb and a flow. It's a, like, you know, it's a, it's being pressure tested throughout time. And you'll actually see that the things that are happening now, for example, like, it's no, it's no secret that we have a. The sin of slavery, of the shadow slavery system in the US that is a, that is a stain on American history. Right? And you see like ironically, in this moment that we've been talking about today, coming out of the French Indian War, that the colonial Americans believed that they were being treated like slaves and now they're going to own slaves. Which is, I'm like, do you see the hypocrisy there? But, but the, that's not the point. The point is, is that what's being developed right now in their own identity is the very ideas that will then liberate slaves one day when we have the Emancipation Proclamation and furthermore, which will also be the key catalyst for the civil rights movement. It's all coming down to this argument that's being developed, but it's not an argument that's like just sitting there yet. I mean, it's having to be developed by guys like John Locke who across the pond and you know, Samuel Rutherford in Scotland. And then, you know, then you have the Thomas Jefferson's will emerge, the George Washington's, the Samuel Adams who has been the Benjamin Franklins. Like everybody is contributing to this and it's coming out of, out of, of responses to real threats that are coming against human dignity. We take this for granted though, because we've grown up outside of a, of a worldview. We don't even have a context for monarchy. I don't like, like when you think about the king or queen, I think about the queen of England or you know, but that's, but they're figureheads. They're not like real, there's no real authority there. I. We don't have, we don't have the worldview to imagine ourselves under that type of rule. But this is the, so this is, we're living in the thing that emerged out of all of these years of this evolution into 1776.
- [44:12]
B
Yeah. When you look around the world, Zach, and you see dictatorial control, and it's still there. All around the world, you usually see people that are not thriving at all. It's a terrible situation. Dad used to be a huge defender of the founders. And when he first started, really, when he was in the heyday of his speaking, he would have a segment, and he had gotten somebody to print it from computer land for him, you know, and he had these old pages, and he had read them so often, they're just fraying on the side, you know, all these quotes from the founders. And so he had a whole segment in there, and it was. It was so great. I love listening to it. I mean, I could just almost just hear it, him doing it. And he always did it with such conviction, like he was one of the, you know, guys from that era doing it. And his deal was, you know, hey, they made mistakes. Of course they did. We all make mistakes, he said, but they founded a country, you know, and he would get into this whole thing back and forth. And of course, people love hearing that, because it's like your own family. Like dad, you know, did he have flaws? Sure. Did he make mistakes? Absolutely. But was he a great man that should be honored and remembered and talked about and the best things he put forward? Yes. But all of our. All of our family should be. And that's the idea of our founders in our country. And so this thing about just trashing consistently, you know, how we got here, you know, mistakes that were made, also things that we're always repairing and working on, but you get the idea now. You hear people talk that they hate America, that they don't. I mean, they're Americans. They're. They're us. But they act like they hate it here, and they don't like any of their.
- [45:51]
A
Well, because you take the thing that we failed at are the things that we failed at, and they're like, it must be. The whole thing is horrible. It's such a horrible way to review history. And I'll tell you what, what it does is you actually miss out on the most beautiful part of the story when you do that. When we had the founder of Hobby Lobby on our podcast recently, and I got to spend some time with David Green, and I mean, anytime you get to spend time, like John, like, you had lunch with us. I think he said this while you were in there. I think he did, but we had just an incredible conversation. This is in his book, too, by the way. He had talked about when he was 44 years old. I think he's 44 or 45. Hobby Lobby, he thought. He said we were in real serious financial trouble. I think we might go bankrupt. And he got under his. I said, he got under his desk and just cried out to the Lord and prayed to pray to God. And I don't know about you all, but I'm 48. So when I hear about someone who. They tell their story of success and it's like, they did this awesome thing. Like, that's. Like, that's cool. But what really inspires me is when I hear about someone who hit a wall and they're like, we hit a wall and we had a moment and the whole thing was about to collapse. And then I. And then I did whatever, A, B and C. And then this happened. Like, that inspires me because I'm hitting walls in my life sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. But nobody just. Just ascends to the top. I mean, that's not how things work. Like, you go through trials, and then in our country, you know, I think there's been trials and this, and it's been difficult, but, man, it's pretty awesome. Like, you think about the human liberty that has emerged out of what was happening here in the colonies, like, in this. Like, these guys came over on a boat called the Pilgrims and the Puritans, and they set up shop here. And then from that, all the liberty and how much the world has changed since then in a lot of ways for the better, I think. A lot of ways for the better. I mean, we have cures for diseases now. We have open heart surgery. We have hospitals, children's hospital systems. We've got education, We've got. I mean, we've got. I mean, modern technology. We've got indoor plumbing. We've got. I mean, the world's a better place. Yeah, I mean, it's a better place than it was, you know, 250 years ago.
- [48:15]
B
And as a people, I think we've been a benevolent people to the rest of the world in a lot of different ways, and. And a protector in a sense of liberty around the world. So I'm proud of all that. I'm proud to be an American. We can sing this song, right? But we're out of time. We want you to sign up, take the course with us for free. Unashamed for hillsdale.com this is the last podcast on this particular subject. Next time, we're going to get back into and finish up our stuff on the early church, which was amazing during the Roman era. So we'll get back to that, and we want you to do it with us. So we'll see you next time on Unashamed with Hillsdale.
- [48:56]
A
Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy, powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to unashamedforhillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's unashamedforhillsdale dot com and don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by smash subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.