Ep 1335 | Jase Offers Newlyweds One Brutally Honest Marriage Warning

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Unashamed with the Robertson Family

Episode 1335: "Jase Offers Newlyweds One Brutally Honest Marriage Warning"
Date: May 18, 2026
Hosts: Jase, Jason, Zach, Al (the Robertson family)
Special guests: Maddie (and references to Bear, Zach's son)

Episode Overview

This episode revolves around the intertwining themes of Christian marriage, identity, being “chosen,” and the biblical concept of vocation. Using humorous personal stories, scriptural discussion, and practical advice, the Robertson family uses Maddie’s newlywed status as a launching point for a rich exploration of what it means to bear the name of Christ, to be united in marriage, and to participate in God’s greater purpose.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter: Aliens, Monsters & the Bible

• Timestamps: [00:58] – [05:55]
• The episode opens with playful banter about conspiracy theories, aliens, Bigfoot, and biblical monsters (Leviathan, Behemoth), connecting these with theological ideas about being "aliens" or "strangers" in this world.
• Jase points to how themes of the “unknown” or “strange beings” are biblically rooted:

  “There’s another name to Leviathan... Behemoth.” – Jace [04:16]
  “We are aliens in this world.” – Zach [02:14]

Memorable Moment

• Jase humorously reframes alien encounters with Christian imagery:

  “God has made us NASA... we are the aliens and strangers in this—we are the aliens.” – Jase [01:24]

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2. Marriage Talk: Honest Warnings & Lessons

• Timestamps: [07:07] – [12:28]
• Maddie’s newlywed status prompts Jase to offer honest marital advice:

  “There’ll come a day in marriage where you’re like, ‘I feel like I could say anything I wanted to say, but sometimes it’s just not worth it.’” – Jase [07:34]

• The family reflects on marriage as a process where communication grows from practical problem-solving to simply listening and supporting, especially in hardship.
• Jace and Jason both emphasize the importance of unoffendability and self-restraint in marriage.
• Notable Quote:

  “You’re just there to listen primarily and to acknowledge sad hurts, difficulties, struggles, and not really looking for solutions—just an ear to hear, which the Bible talks about a lot.” – Jason [09:01]

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Memorable Moment

• Jase’s story of his proposal to Missy, embedding the engagement ring in dirt as a “redneck” test of priorities and identity. He still defends it 36 years later. [09:30]

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3. Identity, Names, and Being Chosen

• Timestamps: [12:28] – [23:20]
• Jase reflects on the tradition of taking a new name in marriage as an act with deep spiritual symbolism, connecting it to biblical themes of identity, belonging, and being God’s “treasured possession.” (Exodus reference)

  “It’s just a lot bigger deal than you think as far as your identity. From God’s perspective—His ownership of us—‘a people belonging to God’…” – Jase [12:28]

• The family discusses how Jesus’ marriage to the church (Ephesians 5, Revelation) parallels Christian marriage, highlighting concepts of unity, merging of identities, and shared destiny.
• Jason reads from Hebrews 1 to emphasize that Jesus is the exact representation of God’s being and that joining with Christ is akin to merging family names:

  “He became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.” – Jason [22:39]

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4. Predestination, Election, and Purpose

• Timestamps: [13:39] – [34:53]
• The Roberts tackle the misunderstood concept of predestination:
  • Jase reframes “predestination” not as an arbitrary mystical destiny but as God giving people a path, purpose, and plan:

    “…Destiny...when you look up what it meant in their language, it was a path, a purpose—a plan, a path.” – Jase [16:36]

  • Zach points out that biblical predestination means being chosen for a purpose: to bear fruit, image God, and participate in His plan—citing John 15 and Romans 8.

    “Those who God foreknew, he predestined to what? To be conformed into the image of the Son...that’s the key thing you got to get when you start talking about predestination.” – Zach [25:50]

• The Roberts critique restrictive interpretations of predestination, especially those that limit salvation to a select few, likening these views to a “casino” where only a few “win.”

  “God’s casino, when you walk in, he’s like, ‘Look what I did for you. I’m going to give you a job. I’m going to make you part of the ownership...’” – Jase [27:04]

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Notable Analogy

• Jase’s casino illustration of predestination highlights the contrast between arbitrary luck and God’s inclusive invitation:

  “…Just because something’s predetermined doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be used for a great purpose...God put a plan in place that would draw people to Him.” – Jase [27:04]

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5. Names, Election, & Vocation

• Timestamps: [29:00] – [39:45]
• The group dives into the biblical use of “election” (chosen), showing its robust connection to vocation and being a voice:

  “The Hebrew word for voting...is used simultaneously with voice. When you vote, that is your voice speaking…God’s saying ‘I voted for you, that’s why I put you here in the first place.’” – Jase [30:03]

• They discuss figures like Saul/Paul as “chosen instruments” and how each believer is chosen for a purpose—sharing the gospel and imaging God—rather than just being selected for personal salvation alone.

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6. Heaven, Salvation, and the Mission Now

• Timestamps: [42:38] – [56:53]
• Zach and Jase stress that God’s gift is not just future-oriented (going to heaven someday) but present:

  “It’s more about getting heaven into us than us getting into heaven.” – Zach [46:40]

• Salvation is described as “participation in the life of Christ,” and the church as God’s “new Exodus people,” inhabited by the Spirit and representing God's heavenly presence in the world.
• They revisit Exodus as a paradigm: God freed Israel before giving them the law—delivering them for a purpose, not from obligation.

  “Don’t you find it fascinating that God freedom first and then gave them the law? He, freedom. They were embodied. He freed them. He's like, all right now. Now that I've got you free...This is good.” – Jace [56:53]

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Memorable Biblical Reflection

• “Heaven’s in us now...We are now the uniting place of heaven and earth.” – Zach [50:50]

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7. Final Reflection: Fruitfulness & Multiplication

• Timestamps: [55:09] – [57:21]

• Zach ties together the episode’s themes by showing that God’s eternal purpose is for His people to bear fruit, echoing Genesis 1’s command to be fruitful and multiply:

  “Even in Romans 8...the creation itself is longing or groaning...waiting for the sons of God to be revealed...because it’s the sons of God who will cultivate the earth. That’s our vocation.” – Zach [55:09]

• Jase closes by noting the beauty and challenge of God’s liberating work:

  “God freedom first and then gave them the law...He freed them. He's like, all right now. Now that I've got you free, because he gave them a vocation is my point. This is good.” – Jace [56:53]

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• “There’ll come a day in marriage where you’re like, ‘I feel like I could say anything I wanted to say, but sometimes it’s just not worth it.’” – Jace [07:34]
• “You’re just there to listen primarily and to acknowledge sad hurts, difficulties, struggles, and not really looking for solutions—just an ear to hear, which the Bible talks about a lot.” – Jason [09:01]
• “It’s just a lot bigger deal than you think as far as your identity. From God’s perspective—His ownership of us—‘a people belonging to God’…” – Jace [12:28]
• "God’s casino, when you walk in, he’s like, ‘Look what I did for you. I’m going to give you a job. I’m going to make you part of the ownership...’” – Jace [27:04]
• “It’s more about getting heaven into us than us getting into heaven.” – Zach [46:40]
• “Don’t you find it fascinating that God freedom first and then gave them the law? Ooh, that’s something to ponder about.” – Jace [56:53]

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Episode Structure with Timestamps

• [00:58] – [05:55]: Lighthearted discussion of aliens, Bible monsters, and “strangers in the world”
• [07:07] – [12:28]: Real talk on marriage, communication, listening, and identity in marriage
• [12:28] – [23:20]: Biblical significance of names, marriage as spiritual illustration, merging identities
• [13:39] – [34:53]: Analysis of “chosen” and “predestination,” God’s purpose, story of Paul, vocation vs. random election
• [39:45] – [56:53]: How heaven comes to us, Israel’s vocation, biblical fruitfulness, and application to the Christian life
• [56:53] – End: Final theological reflections, fruitfulness as the goal, salvation as freedom for mission

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Conclusion

This episode weaves personal anecdotes, robust biblical teaching, and practical wisdom for both newlyweds and seasoned believers. The takeaway centers on marriage as a lived metaphor of Christian identity and mission: taking on Christ’s name, participating in His calling, bearing fruit, and embracing the freedom and responsibilities that come with being “chosen.” The Robertsons remind listeners that God’s plan is about inclusive participation, present transformation, and a life characterized by love and purpose.

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Transcript

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[Jace]

I am unashamed.

[Zach]

What about you?

[Jason]

Welcome back to Unashamed. We we've been talking on the interim we we went out. You never know where we're gonna jump in. That's the funny thing about this podcast is we always know where we think we're going to wind up but we never know exactly how we're going to get there. So it's well interesting that the we had half of our podcast.

[Jace]

Thankfully thankfully Zach has has those conspiracy tendencies even though I don't well and you also are in a you know, you're on A River Called Denial. But it did well because I was trying to keep it simple and I'm like you're talking about NASA. We are NASA. Lifted up. It's the Hebrew word for lifted up. God has lifted us up. That that would be a great conversation the next time you're you meet somebody who's into space and Star Trek, you're like hey buddy, God has made us NASA. Same thing with the aliens. You're like are there we are aliens and strangers in this we are the aliens.

[Zach]

We are aliens in this world.

[Jace]

But but the there's no butter in that sentence. I don't in that.

[Zach]

I'm just saying what we were talking about though was is there life forms out there that we that we we don't know about yet that that have been interacting with with our our planet

[Jace]

and can't get off of it

[Zach]

because it's, it's fascinating. I mean Drer quotes Heiser Michael Heiser, who we we like and we've read his work, you know. But I mean it is Interesting. And. And it is possible that there is a lot more to the world than we realize. And. And this could be part of the cosmic battle, the spiritual battle that we're all in. I think it's. I mean, I think we. We've lost enchantment, you know, in 2026. So even though I'm kind of like, I'm skeptical about it, but at the same time, I'm like, I'm open. I'm open to.

[Jace]

Oh, we just. We just spent an hour trying to convince you differently. This just shows you without repentance.

[Zach]

No, I was. No, Al. Al's already in. Jason. I'm not. You're not convincing me. I'm on the fence.

[Jace]

Yeah, I was trying to get you to repent over there. I thought we had just done. I was like. Well, we. We took care of that. No, no. An hour later, he's back right where.

[Zach]

We believe in Bigfoot too, Al.

[Jason]

I'm not sure about Bigfoot. That is Burley out there dressed as a.

[Zach]

What about the Loch Ness monster?

[Jason]

Yeah, I don't know about. I'm not much on the earth.

[Jace]

These things that you're coming up with or.

[Zach]

I didn't come up with that.

[Jace]

Or in the Bible.

[Zach]

What's that?

[Jace]

Well, you had the. What was the thing we learned in school? Well, in Job and.

[Jason]

Yeah, the Leviathan.

[Jace]

And. Yeah, there's another name to Leviathan and

[Jason]

what was some other kind of beast.

[Jace]

Yeah, I cannot think of that. I've had a brain cramp. It was. What was it called? Yeah, the Leviathan was. Which was kind of the. The reptile, Loch Ness monsters, but Behemoth.

[Jason]

Behemoth.

[Zach]

Thank you very much.

[Jason]

Thank you.

[Jace]

Maddie, Maddie, over here. Just Behemoth. Yeah. So Maddie.

[Zach]

Maddie did go to Harding University, and then the same place I went. Great education.

[Jace]

And where did Bigfoot came. Come from? You had giants in Genesis 6, which, you know, Goliath was from that genealogy. Yeah, he had big. He. That was Bigfoot. So guess what? A rock took him out. So why are you worried about that, Zach? The power of God in the name with a rock. And old Bigfoot went head. Head removed. So that's worried about it.

[Zach]

I'm not worried about it. I'm curious about it. Not Bigfoot. I don't. I. I'm curious about the aliens, the UFOs. I am very curious.

[Jason]

Well, we had the. We had the blurry creature guys on and they're. They're into this whole discussion.

[Zach]

Oh, they're full bore.

[Jason]

Yeah, they do a good job. And they had Dr. Heiser on their podcast, correct? Is that.

[Zach]

I don't know if they did or not. I mean, he's passed. I think they did, but, I mean, he may have.

[Jason]

Well, they definitely. They definitely talked about his work, for sure.

[Jace]

But look, it's different in talking about other creatures from other planets and talking about celestial beings surrounded and involved in this planet. That. That's my. That's my.

[Zach]

They could be the same thing. My point is, if. If we've had. If there are other entities out there that we don't know about, I would probably say that they're. It's. It's something. It's not alien life forms from other planets. It's more beings that. That have been here for a while. That.

[Jason]

Yeah, celestial beings.

[Zach]

Yeah, celestial being. Part of a cosmic world.

[Jace]

That's obvious that there's extraterrestrial. I mean, there's a whole fleet of verses of which I know. You know, that you know, our struggle.

[Jason]

Which is. Which is kind of. That's my.

[Jace]

My whole point.

[Jason]

So I wanted to. Since Maddie's name was in boat, I wanted to come at this thing because we've been talking about the name, and Jay's pivoted beautifully to third John 7, which is kind of what launched us into this whole discussion about the name. And even the. Even the stuff we were talking about. The last podcast got us back there again. But I. I was. When I came on this morning, I came in, tuned in a little bit early, and Jace was there, and he was eating his Jesus chicken biscuits. And so he and Maddie were having a conversation. So I was just listening in on the conversation. And you were talking about marriage, Jason and Maddie. When Maddie first came to us fresh out of Harding University. Right out of. We saved her from a career in TV news, which. Thank you, Mindy. You can thank us later for that, because this is probably way more exciting. But so we. She wasn't married, but she was engaged. I think that's right. Maddie. And then she got married fairly quickly. And so I find that we spend. Especially when dad was around, too, we would spend a lot of time giving young Maddie marriage advice. And so, Jace, I felt like you were continuing that on this morning by talking about marriage with her.

[Jace]

I don't. I don't even remember that conversation.

[Jason]

But it was a conversation you were having about you and Missy, but you were doing it sort of in a teaching way, and Maddie was asking you a lot of questions about it, so.

[Jace]

That is true. I said, they'll come a day because we're both kind of unoffendable, you know, when you're doing what we're doing at this rigorous of a pace, a lot of times you just say bluntly what, you know, whatever you're thinking. And she made the point that she was unoffendable. I said, well, I am too. That's why this is a good way to be when you're doing this much stuff. But then I said, but there'll come a day in marriage where you're like, I feel like I could say anything I wanted to say, but sometimes it's just not worth it, you know, and it's usually over something small. And I was just saying there'll come a day when you'll have that instinct. And you're like, no, it's not worth it. So I guess that was.

[Jason]

And marriage, of course. And Zach, you can weigh in on this as well. So marriage, when we talk about conversation and marriage in communication, which is obviously a big key to success in marriage, sometimes communication is two way to get to information that you need to do or you're trying to figure something out or just something some big dream we want to accomplish. And so there's that kind of conversation which is very much back and forth. And then, Jace, you were describing a sort of conversation in marriage that you typically don't learn about until you've been married a few years.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And that's a very one sided conversation where you are just there to listen primarily and to acknowledge sad hurts, you know, difficulties, struggles, and not really looking for solution. Just an ear to hear, which the Bible talks about a lot. He has ears. Let him hear. Because sometimes there's that conversation.

[Jace]

Yeah.

[Jason]

That you have to have as well. And so I just, I just thought about the nuances of that.

[Jace]

Well, I wanted to make a little. I mean, it's a very good point, Al, because something we didn't talk about in second John that I wanted to, but we just quickly went past it. But I'll bring it up because I think this is the perfect place to do that. And it's this idea of marriage what's fascinating to me. And I'm not sure where this all got started. Maybe y' all know the history of this. I wasn't prepared to talk about this, but it's so weird. I remember thinking, okay, when my wife unbelievably said yes, which was a little bumpy during the proposal. I've shared that before when I asked her to marry me, because it was the way I asked her. I put the ring in some dirt it was in a box. I'm still trying to defend this 36 years later, but I wanted to see, since she had such yuppie tendencies Zach can identify, because I thought, I don't know. I don't think she realizes what she's getting into from a wilderness redneck guy that I am. I mean, I love Jesus. That was the draw for her. And so I did the proposal there. But what was fascinating to me is, like, the. When we were signing the marriage license and all that, I thought, she's literally changing her name. It was heavy. It was heavy for me. Well, last night, I got in from Nashville, and I'd been away for a couple of days. And when I pulled in Hazel and Buddy, which are my two guard dogs, they're vicious. They were shaking their tails, and I knew what that particular tail shake meant. Break out the rough greens.

[Jason]

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[Jace]

They're.

[Jason]

They're thriving. Meatball, who is our oldest dog in our compound, she's got some life back in her that she hadn't had for a while, and we're attributing that to rough green. So you want to jump in and make your dogs feel better, Get a free Jumpstart trial bag for your dog. You just cover the shipping. Go to ruffgreens.com, use the discount code unashamed. That's r u f f greens.com discount code, unashamed. Rough greens. We make any dog food better?

[Jace]

I guess the power of it hit me as I was researching this and studying this. I'm like, it's just a lot bigger deal than you think as far as your identity. That's why I said, I really believe it's tied to your identity. And, you know, from God's perspective, his ownership of us and that little phrase that says a people belonging to God, well, there's a place in Exodus That I was reading about this, where it says that they were God's treasured possession, that word possession. And so. But when I read this, you tend to think there's so many, especially under the umbrella of Christianity, confusion on what it means to be chosen. And I think the marriage context was God's way of kind of facilitating that idea. Because think about Ephesians 5, when he talks about the roles of marriage, which kind of what we're talking about, giving marital advice and all this. Then he gets to the end of that chapter. I think it's what, verse 30, 32, somewhere in there. And he's like, this is a profound mystery. But I'm talking about Christ and the church.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Jace]

You know, being married, us being the bride of Christ. And when you, when you get to the book of Revelation, you see this name and the power of the name, it is all over the place. And there's a couple of rabbit holes that I want to go down back, that goes back to Exodus. And one of them is in Exodus 28 where Aaron, who as the priest representing Israel, I think it's in verse 18, 19, he had this plate on him and there were 12 jewels. Sound familiar? At the end of Revelation and it says they represented the names of the tribes of Israel. And you say, well, what does all that mean? Well, Jesus, fast forward, he comes later and he becomes the ultimate high priest. And then you see this vision after all this talk about the name, remember in the little letters to the churches, he's like, I'll give you a new name. We can look them up and read them, but they're fascinating. And then here are these jewels that are listed to describe the bride of Christ in revelation. Is it 21 or 22? 21. And remember when we did the podcast about the guy who was an expert in light that he shining through the stones? Yeah. Look through the stones. And all those stones that were selected in Revelation, when you look at them through this laser light, the colors are way more than its original, but a lot of jewels, when you shine that light on it, it's just dark. And so his whole point was, how did this writer know which stones to pick? That my laser 2000 years later would illuminate and have all these multi facets of light going through, which I thought was fascinating. But the real better news to me is this whole idea of the name that Aaron was representing as a priest to the tribes of Israel. And so then you get in that idea about being chosen. And the only point I was going to make is in John 15, when Jesus said, you didn't choose me, I chose you. And people like, whoa, what does that mean? And I think there's been so much confusion about what that means, especially when you throw in the idea, you know, like, predestination. And. Because even in the conversation Zach, I had with your son in Acts 17, and this, this is going to make sense in the conversation we're in, because when you're bearing the image and you're representing the name, when I read that, Acts 17, well, Paul, he gives an explanation, explanation of the unknown God. And in that explanation, he says, God gave you life, he gave you breath, he gave you everything else. He determined the times set for you, the exact places where you should live, or it says, the boundaries. From one man, he made all nations of men. And the exact place and the exact time. That's what you conclude. What I found fascinating is because I got to thinking based on his response, because he said, oh, is that what predestination means? And I thought, where did that come from? You know, because predestination is not in there, but the word that's used there, that he set, that is predetermined, and it's used other places. So when you look at both of those words, it kind of gives you the idea that there's two aspects to bearing the name and bearing the image. Just follow me here. I'm giving you the overall view. And if y' all want to get into the verses, we can. So we all, as humans, Based on Acts 17, bear the image of God. God created us. You know, think about, you knitted me together in my mother's womb, and, you know, where did life come from? The author of life, Nothing that has been created was created, you know, Without Jesus, John 1, Colossians 1, same kind of idea. Then you have this other aspect of, however you want to depict it, entering a covenant relationship, which is what marriage is in the name of Jesus, where you bear the name, you see. So it's like you image God just by being born. And you have that responsibility to lord over creation. Think Genesis 1 and 2. All the things that we were supposed to do, take care of the creation, rule over the animals, fill the earth, all these things. Then you have this responsibility because of God's plan and purpose, which this really helped me answer that question. Because when you look at the word chosen, you tend to see groups of people where it's used, like, all right, the nation of Israel was God's chosen people. Well, what was the purpose? What was ultimately the purpose? To get Jesus here, to bring Jesus here. Yeah, right. So when you think, well, then the church has called God's chosen people over and over. What was, what's the purpose of that? To share Jesus with people who he is, Image God. Yeah. Now, now the Jews didn't do so well in imaging God as a nation, but they did produce Jesus. Awesome, great job. Which God, you know, accomplished in that. And so what I find fascinating is people try to explain that and you get into all these controversies. But what I was explaining to Young Bear is that concept right there. I was like, well, there was a plan. And look at the purpose that God predetermined. And I think the word predestined is confusing because our word of destiny is like some kind of mythical, mystical thing. But when you look up what it meant in their language, it was a path, a purpose, a plan, a path. That's what it was. And so God determined that. That's why the phrase in Christ means so much in that. So fast forward to us being married to Christ. You start understanding the path and the plan and the purpose not only that God had, but that we have now. So that was my little speech on how it relates to marriage. What do you think?

[Jason]

Well, I love it. And that's why I wanted to go there. That's why I brought it up about Maddie and getting married. Because the idea is, I love what you said. We take on the name. But also when you think about it, marriage is a man and a woman, God's first creation, humanity wise, that then merge their, their families into one. Which is fascinating when you think about because. So Zach's mom, her name, her family heritage was the same. It was a Robertson. But her, his dad is a Dasher. And so, and so you put them together and it was Jan Robertson, Dasher. But she took on Gordon's name because then they became one. Then they began to procreate and create children who they gave names that meant something to them. But this is now. This is them doing exactly what God has called them to do. And, and so it's this merging concept. And I love it when you think about it from the standpoint of, of what God does it by allowing Jesus to come predetermined before the creation of time. As you mentioned, Jay, his destiny was then to become one of us, the son of man Coming. Daniel 7. And so then you see that exact same merging concept that had been looked at all throughout the Old Testament. And I want to read Hebrews one, we've read this before, but it's Such a beautiful place to put it here, because the Hebrew writer starts out his book, which is the whole idea of Hebrews, is to describe that Jesus really did come here for this purpose. In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times in various ways. But in these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he made the universe. That's the whole concept. He's always been there. The sun is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the master in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. And so I love this idea. Again, back to the name and Zach, it shows that God is both transcendent and imminent at the same time in Jesus, which is this idea of merging into us and then sending a spirit later. It's just such a beautiful picture. And marriage is a really good illustration of that. But it is that picture that we're looking at.

[Zach]

Jace, I just heard this from someone. I can't say who it is because they would be very embarrassed, but they were showing somebody in their house how to use a gun, and they fired the gun off in their house.

[Jace]

Unacceptable.

[Zach]

Unacceptable. I'm telling you, it makes me realize how important it is to secure your firearms. Safe storage is a big part of that, but you shouldn't have to choose between safe storage and readiness. So with Stopbox, you can have both safety when you need it and access when it matters.

[Jace]

It takes a little practice, but it's not very difficult. And then you squeeze and push down, and voila.

[Zach]

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[Jace]

Well, yeah, it's.

[Zach]

There's a wedding involved, but it's it. The marriage moves on past the wedding ceremony. And I think again we've mentioned this in the, in previous podcasts. I think where this gets hairy and complicated for us is when we try to shrink down salvation to that one thing we did that one time. And so you get to a concept like predestination. And what people mean by that a lot of times is like they, they're, they're just, they're just focusing on justification. But, but it is much more than that. And you see it in Romans 8. Romans 8 has a perfect language for what you just said, Jace, that, that we were predestined. Those who God foreknew, he predestined to what? To be conformed into the image of the sun. And so that's.

[Jason]

That.

[Zach]

That's the key thing you got to get when you start talking about predestination. It is a, a predestination to participate into conformity. You start to smell and look. You start to image the name of Jesus. You image him.

[Jace]

I thought of a silly illustration. I don't know, it just popped in my brain because I thought, think about a casino. It is predetermined that they're going to win. So I got a question. Why do people go there? Why do they go there? Do they not know? Do they not know that it is a statistical impossibility that the humans that go in the place are going to win more than the people who own the place? It is predetermined by math and stats. So my illustration is. It made me think about that and I think, well, the people, they realize some people are going to win. They want to be the special person who defies the odds. And there's a sense of pride about that. They're like, yeah, but I, there's like,

[Jason]

I got it, I got it, I got a chance.

[Jace]

But when you look at what. So, you know, I mean, they put a bunch of them in west of us in a city. And, you know, it's just made the surrounding city just kind of a little dark. And you're like, ugh. And I know there are some people winning, but when you look at the purpose of it, the purpose is the people who own that are making lots of money. And so I thought, do we. Is that how we view this, the idea of predestination? Because I thought, God's casino, when you walk in, he's like, look what I did for you. I'm going to give you a job. I'm going to make you part of the ownership that what I have. I'm going to give you the inheritance. And I think that's the difference. And I think Jesus is the draw. I just. I don't know if that makes sense, but it popped into my head, and I thought, just because something's predetermined doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be used for a great purpose. It was my point, you know, because people still do it. And I've said that to many people. I'm like, the odds are stacked in your favor. I mean, against your favor. Why would you do that? They're like, well, because I may win. I know a guy who walked in there and put, you know, a quarter in a slot machine and won $7,000. I was like, yeah, but they're factoring that in. They're like, yeah, but he was the lucky one. And I thought, God. God doesn't work like that. It's a totally different concept. He put a plan in place that would draw people to him. And I just think that it's different. You become a part of that instead of just visiting. You happen to hit and get the win, and now you're waiting to get the end result, as you said, Zach. So.

[Zach]

Well, that's the choice of God to choose. God does choose us. I mean, I know you mentioned that John 15 passage. I mean, he is talking to the disciples, to be fair. But I do think.

[Jace]

Which is a small group of people is what I said. What was the purpose? That's a good. That's a. I'm glad you brought that up. What was the purpose. What was the purpose of choosing that small group of people?

[Zach]

That you should go and bear fruit and.

[Jace]

Exactly. And what happened after he left, that. That small group of people, they bore some fruit and they bore the name of Jesus, which is my point. When you don't. When. When you don't see the purpose or the big picture in the process, it tends to get confusing was, was where I was going with that.

[Jason]

When their job, their job was to abide. Remember the word abide we kept using in John 15? It's just over and over and over again. Their job was to abide in him.

[Zach]

Well, think about, look, he says, go bear fruit, that your fruit should abide so that whatever you ask the Father in my name.

[Jace]

There you go, there you go. It keeps going. Look, you're, you're noticing the same things I was noticing in this connection. Because when you look up the Greek word for chosen, you know what you're going to find? I can't pronounce it, but you know what I see in it? Election, elect. That's why some places it says electronic, it has all those letters in it. That's where I guess we get our word for elect. Well, what does that make you think? Well, that makes you think about voting. And what I noticed in doing this research, you'll find this fascinating. The Hebrew word for voting, and this is a modern day. It wasn't so much what I'm fixed to say wasn't so much back when the Bible was written. But they're modern definition of that word, vote is used simultaneously with voice. And you'll see why they made that connection. I'm saying the modern day Hebrew word for vote because they're like, well you, because you have a voice when you vote. That is your voice speaking. So I think it helped me understand this with God saying, look, I voted for you, that's why I put you here in the first place. I don't need anything from you, I'm giving you life. And then I think that goes to the purpose, this idea of the voice. Because think about all the passages that says that. Remember when John the Baptist, how was he characterized? He said there'll be a voice crying out in the wilderness. You see, God chose him to be a voice. Now look, if you look that Greek word up for Voice, it's over 100 times in there. And so what I found fascinating about all this, because to me it keeps going back to those 10 Commandments about bearing the image. God is God, he voted for us, he elected us for different purposes. You had Israel, they had their purpose. But even when it gets to individuals, it gets a little tricky because that day I was studying with Bear, he asked me about Saul because he was asking me about different views of predestination. And I was like, well, some people believe that it's, everything's triggered by God. And some people believe that like the Holy Spirit like, and y' all have heard this, this doctrine preached out there where before the beginning of time. And some people believe this, that God selected some people to be saved and some not to be, and then he gave them life. And that always kind of makes people who, someone like me, I mean, I'll just be honest, a little cringe worthy, because to me, that sounds a lot like my casino illustration, you know, like, well, wait a minute here. Is he not for everybody? And you know, and those people teach that, they're like, no, he's not. They'll just flat out say it. You ask them, did Jesus die for everybody? They'll say, no. So to me, that's missed something that within the framework of the entire Bible, doesn't register. But my point was, he brought up Saul because I said, they believe the Holy Spirit has to trigger this idea that you were one of the select few that were chosen. And he said, what about Saul? Why did that happen? I was like, that's a great question. Because here's a guy, if he was just waiting on the trigger, why didn't God push the trigger instead of just saying, hey, Saul. There was a voice, which back to the voice, the voting and the voice. There was a voice that said, why are you persecuting me? I'm the Lord. You're persecuting me. So you know what? Later it says, as defined on Paul's row, it says that he was God's chosen instrument. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because the amount of times that Jesus is defined as the chosen one, that phrase, and they usually capitalize it all over the New Testament, but look it up, it's multiple times. Remember when he was on the cross and they said, save yourself? We thought you were the chosen one. That's a big theme in the New Testament. But when it got to Saul, Paul, which he gave him a new name, is where I'm going with this. That word for instrument is all over the New Testament. Look, it says, we're jars of clay. Same word, we're vessels.

[Zach]

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[Jace]

Well, I have a theory on what you just said. I'd like to give on why, because Bear asked me the same question. He said, why do you think God did that? I said, well, it's not unlike him choosing Abraham. Noah. Who's the one I skipped? Abraham. Noah.

[Jason]

Moses.

[Jace]

Moses. Yeah. You Know, for a special purpose, which I agree with what Jack said, but. And the Noah and his family went, well. And look, by the way, you know, his firstborn son was named Shem. You know what that means? What his name means? Name. That's what his name means. Shem means name. This idea of the name being represented as hope for God goes way back. But what I was going to say about Saul is I told Bear, I said, in my opinion, based on what I read, when you read all of Paul's writings, you really get the idea that he was really, sincerely mistaken. He was out there. We think, oh, he was murdering Christians, but he was doing it in the name of God.

[Zach]

And he said he did it with a clean conscience.

[Jace]

Yeah. And I think God knows the heart, ultimately. And here's this guy who cannot be any more passionate for the same God that Jesus is representing him. He just didn't make the connection. And so I really believe he was born for that reason. But I also think that's why the conversation was there. And it's just an opinion, but I think he was sincerely trying to serve the living God. And he just said, hey, you're doing that the wrong way. You're representing me.

[Jason]

Look at how it happened. He said, how did Jesus approach him? He called him by his name, his Hebrew name. Saul. Saul. And then Saul answered him, who are you? What did he ask him? What's your name?

[Zach]

What's your name?

[Jason]

He said, jesus, whom you're persecuting. So back to the idea. And then he. Then he changes his name later.

[Zach]

That's one of those gulp moments. Can you imagine what he felt? Especially. Especially if he did it with a good conscience, you know, to then realize, whoa, everything I thought I was doing that was righteous. I'm actually persecuting the living God. It's crazy. But I want to return to something. Yeah, I want to return back to this. I think this is really important to understand. When you talked about the definition of election, and then you kind of tied that to voting, and you're voting for what? To put people in office. And so I think that we. When we try to limit the. The phrase predestination or election, we try to. We try to limit that to who's going to heaven one day. Like, God's going to pick and choose. Okay, you're going to heaven, you're not going to heaven, you're going to hell. And we limit it to that. Then I think what happens is it limits our view of heaven, which is what we've talked about. A lot on this podcast is that the kingdom of heaven is here. John 17:3. Eternal life is now. It's not only in the future. It is participation in the life of Christ. And so I think this matters because election is about office. It is about vocation. It is totally connected to vocation. It's totally connected to what we're supposed to do and be and the kind of people we are and who we smell like. And we're conformed into the image of sun. Romans chapter 8. That fruitful multiplication, that be fruitful, multiply that. Genesis 1:28 lived out. I chose you so that you would be fruitful. And multiply this. You would bear fruit. And not just bear fruit for the sake of bearing fruit, but you would bear fruit that would abide, that would last, that would live. And if you read that John 15 passage at the very end of it, listen to what it says. He says these things, I command you. What's the purpose? So that you will love one another. That's a fruit of the Spirit. To love is a fruit of the Spirit. Well, how does. How does it. How do we produce the fruit of the Spirit? Be fruitful. I'm telling you these things so you'll be fruitful. You can't separate being chosen by God from your vocation and the office that he's called you into. He's called you into a particular purpose, and in that purpose, you is to experience eternal life right now, yes, in the future, but right to know the one true God and Jesus Christ his Son, whom he sent right now. So it's not to separate these things out and only think about salvation in terms of, oh, I'm going to get to go to heaven one day. It's too limiting of a view. It's too small.

[Jace]

I agree 100%. And my theory on why. I know why the confusion is about that word. But when you go back to 2 John and read where he read that, which is why I wanted to get into it, when he starts the verse off, he says to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth, and not I only, but also all who know the truth, because of the truth which lives in us and will be with us forever. And then he talks about this command about loving each other, to your point, and doing what God says. He brings up the deceivers who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ in verse 7 as coming in the flesh, any such person as a deceiver in the Antichrist, watch out. And then he gets down to the end the last verse. Says the children of your chosen sisters send their greetings, which I think most scholars agree that this is representative of the lady being the bride of Christ. And the children are those that they're sharing Jesus with and bringing in to the fold. Would you agree with that?

[Zach]

I think so, yeah.

[Jace]

So my, my theory is, though, when you practically look at this and all churches struggle with this, you're in vicinity of the believers. And the reason it's so difficult to love each other is because we're humans, we're flawed, bad things happen. It's hard to get along with people. And I think you have to remind yourselves, look, this is God's plan. This is his purpose. We're married to Christ, and we all got a lot of baggage and there's a lot of mistakes, and it's easy to be an imposter, you know, at a church building or whatever. And I think they were struggling with all this. And I think this is why he's using that kind of language that you have to remind yourself is this is not a perfect system as we see it, because we're all on a growth journey in Jesus and mistakes are being constantly made and there's dissensions that come up and people get mad at each other and they. What they called in the old days, move their letter, which I never figured out what that really meant.

[Zach]

But we didn't have a letter. In churches of Christ, you just place. We would place membership, but it was always a verbal confirmation. Someone stayed. John and Susie, they placed membership here in the Baptist church. I think there is an actual letter that you used to sign and you're saying, hey. So they're saying, give me my letter. I'm taking that letter to the church down the street. So that's why that's a Baptist term.

[Jason]

What amazes me is how the resurrection changed everything. We kind of just jumped in at Saul. But I thought about other examples. One of them was in the book of Jude, which was a fascinating thing. We were talking about the angel of the Lord a couple of podcasts ago. Jude is the half brother of Jesus. He starts out by saying, jude, a servant of Jesus Christ. So he there he is. This is my brother, my earthly brother, but he's my Lord and brother of James. That's how we know that, because James was also another brother. But then he says in verse five, though you already know this, I want to remind you that the Lord, the Lord, he's talking about Jesus delivered his people out of Egypt.

[Zach]

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[Jace]

Full transparency. I own shares of Shopify in my stock portfolio.

[Jason]

Even Duckamander has been using Shopify for many years.

[Zach]

Yeah, Shopify, it was our go to for the blind and unashamed merch. And we've sold that over the years. You know, all the charts and the analytics, it lets us know what you guys want and what you didn't want. And it even made cut customer service easy. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. 10% of all e commerce, in fact. In the U.S. from household names like Gymshark, Mattel to brands just getting started, you can accelerate your efficiency. Whether you're uploading new products or trying to improve existing ones, Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a full marketing team behind you, even if you don't easily create emails and social media campaigns. Wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling, it's time to turn those wh ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com unashamed go to shopify.com unashamed that's shopify.com unashamed. Because it's the new Exodus. I mean, that's the thing I was saying earlier about in the last podcast about Exodus. Now I can't remember six or five where he says, I didn't make my name known to, to Abraham and Jacob and Isaac, but to you. I'm telling you my name. To them it was just I was El Shaddai, God Almighty, but you, I'm telling you my name. And then 9, 16 now, now this is why I raised favor up that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. We're in that new Exodus movement now. So we were talking about John 15 earlier and I was talking about how we have to expand our view of heaven and we have to expand our view of, of, of salvation. It's not simply that we're going to heaven one day, it's that heaven's getting into us now. And I, I turned back in my Bible, just one page on accident. And I had this note in my Bible for. In John 14. And it says it's more about getting. This is what I wrote, not the scripture. I'll read the scripture in just a second. But next to the scripture I wrote, it's more about getting heaven into us than us getting into heaven. And then I have a reference of Hebrews 9:23 there. But, but here's the verse I was referring to in John 14:23. Listen to this. Jesus answered him, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. That. That's. That's salvation right there. Yeah, that. That they, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will make their home in us. I mean, that. That is salvation. It's to, to. To try to like, I guess, separate salvation from God making his home and humans with some place that we're going to. Is to miss the point. And the reason why I put Hebrews 9:23 in there, because if you read the Hebrew writer, he's talking about the old temple, right? He says that thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites. But the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered not into holy places made with hands. That's old Exodus. We're in the new Exodus. The old Exodus was Exodus 25. When God made, when he said make the tabernacle, Christ didn't enter into. Into those types, the ones made with man's hands, which are copies of the true things. But Christ entered into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. And he does that for what purpose? To make. To bring heaven and put heaven into us. And so Christ moves in. The Holy Spirit lives in the body of the believers. Now we are now the uniting place of heaven and earth. And I think that also goes back to Acts 17 because. Right to what you said earlier, because Acts 17:25, heaven itself now appears in the presence of God, which is in us now. Heaven's in us now.

[Jason]

So, Zach, the reason I brought Jude up was because, remember John 7, Jude was among Jesus family who did not believe in him. Now they were like. They felt like they was a little marketing team. They didn't believe he was the Son of God.

[Jace]

But That's John, John 75. It says, even his own book. Now he's writing a book.

[Jason]

Now he's writing a book and he's comparing him and what he's doing in Jude's time to what happened way back in that first Exodus. So what ch. What took Jude from the boardroom? How we can make some money off of this brother to the upper room where he's there after it's all over, one thing happened. The resurrection and. And ascension of Jesus. That's what happened to change him. And that's the same that changes us.

[Jace]

It's a great point. Back when you go to Exodus, how that went down with an angel of the Lord who wasn't a typical angel of the Lord because he said, my name is in him. And so what I wanted to do, it made me think, al, when you said that, looking at the. The context of First Corinthians in verse 6, chapter 6, verse 9, when he said, do you not know the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? And kind of, to get back to my little casino analogy, it says, don't be deceived. And it's all this mess. Sexually immoral. The idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexual offenders, thieves, greedy drunkards, slanderers, swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus. I read that only in context, because a couple chapters later, he did the same thing Jude did, Paul does here when he says, I don't want you to be ignorant. This is 1 Corinthians 10 about our forefathers. They were all under the cloud and they passed through the sea. They were baptized into Moses. They ate spiritual food, spiritual drink, but God was not pleased with them. But watch this one verse. In verse three, when they ate that drink, remember the manna and the water that came from the rock, it said they drank from the spiritual rock. And that rock was Christ. I mean, he's going back to that Exodus and inserting Christ there. Well, what I find fascinating to get back to my casino analogy, is when he gets to verse 11 of chapter 10, it says, these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. Well, I guarantee you that's Christ. So if you think you're standing firm, be careful that you don't fall. But then watch this next little phrase. It's very interesting, and I've had a lot of studies with very prideful people that do not like this verse, because people have a tendency to want to be either better or worse than everybody else. But the bottom line is they want to be Special. They want to be in a special group than all other humans. And he says, verse 13, no temptation has seized you except what is common to man. He breaks it down to, we're all on the same page. That's why I wanted to read that First Corinthians 6. Even the worst of us, he says, look, that's the way you were. But guess what? You were washed. You were sanctified. I mean, this offer is to everyone. So then it says, and God is faithful. He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out. Which is what I started with saying. Predestination means the literal word. There. There's a. There's a road out. And it's. That's what Exodus did, you know, that's what Exodus means, a road out. A road out. That's what the word.

[Zach]

But it's a road out. It's a road out to fruitful multiplication. And I'll let you tie a bow on this if I can. If you look at the very beginning of Exodus, you say, well, why was he.

[Jace]

Why.

[Zach]

Why did they even need to leave? What was the problem? Well, they were being treated very harshly by Pharaoh. He said, well, what was his beef? Why was he so mad? You know why he was mad. First read the first seven verses of the book of Exodus. Because they were fruitful, and they multiplied and they filled the land. So they were doing Genesis 1:28. And that was why. That's what got thwarted by Satan or Pharaoh, in this case, working in conjunction with Satan. And God says, you're not going to stop the fruit. You're not going to stop Genesis 1:28 from happening. You're not going to stop it. So the egg, the road out, is actually a road into. Back into Genesis 1:28. Fruitful multiplication and filling up the earth. That's what they were doing, and that's why Pharaoh came after him. So you said, well, what does this have to do with predestination? It has everything to do with it. Because even In Roman chapter 8, go read the whole chapter. When it talks about pre. That we're predestined to be conformed into the image of the Son. Just read right before that. Right before that, he. He talks about that the creation itself is longing or groaning. I forgot how it says it. With eager expectation, waiting for the sons of God to be revealed. Well, why is the creation groaning and waiting for the sons of God to be revealed? Because it's the sons of God who will cultivate the earth. That's their vocate. That's our vocation. So the creation in Romans 8, the way Paul writes it, creation is groaning. So we want to be called. We want to be cultivated. Cultivate us. Cultivate. Who's going to cultivate us? Who's going to. Who's going to exercise their dominion? The sons of God. And that's why he ties that bow around it with the predestination comment that we're predestined to be conformed into the image of the sun.

[Jace]

Brilliant. And I want to put a we're out of time, but I'm going to put a ribbon on that bow just for you to think about. Don't you find it fascinating that God freedom first and then gave them the law? Ooh, that's something to ponder about. He, freedom. They were embodied. He freed him. He's like, all right now. Now that I've got you free because he gave them a vocation is my point. This is good.

[Jason]

As well as the oldest sin in the book, and that's jealousy, which I don't know. We'll have to talk about that next time we come back on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.