Podcast
Uncertain
Hosted by Katherine Spearing · EN
Groundbreaking podcast pioneering pivotal conversations about Spiritual Abuse.
Interviews with authors, artists, experts, and story tellers to validate the experience of survivors of Spiritual Abuse, providing practical insights for the recovery journey.
Your host is Katherine Spearing, a Certified Trauma Recovery Practitioner with nearly a decade of previous experience working in the evangelical church.
This is the affiliate podcast of TearsofEden.org , a nonprofit for community and understanding in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse.
Find us on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
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S5: E16 - The Board Interviews Katherine: Celebrating Five Seasons and 110 Episodes
Jul 30, 202401:16:47Tap to summarizeS5: E16 - The Board Interviews Katherine: Celebrating Five Seasons and 110 Episodes Katherine Spearing New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other Side-The Final Episode of Season Five (and the final episode of Uncertain) is a very special episode. The Board of Directors of Tears of Eden interviews Katherine Spearing, reflecting on the journey of creating five seasons and 110 episodes. They'll discuss: What Katherine is most proud of during the past five seasonsHow Katherine has navigated carrying stories of abuse and trauma while also being a survivorWhat it's like working with a team and building community after experiencing abuse within a communityWhat it's like to pioneer bringing pivotal conversations into the public eyeHow being a woman has impacted Katherine's approach and experience calling out abuse And More! Featuring Erin Pickersgill, Nikki G. and Brad Klausman Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitionersSign up for Tears of Eden’s newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing’s upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/aboutUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain. So today's episode is a special one. It's a little bit happy and celebratory, and it's also a little bit sad. This episode is for the foreseeable future the last episode of Uncertain. It is the end of an era, the end of a journey, and also the beginning of one, I hope. Is the fifth season. We're ending the fifth season. There are five seasons of Uncertain. There's also over a hundred episodes. That's a really big deal. I was planning to sort of end the season with the episode from last week with Janai Amon talking about the How to prepare for telling your story publicly in a safe way.I was really excited about that episode. I was prepared to end on that episode. And then I met with the board of directors for tears of Eden. Yes, we have a [00:01:00] board of directors. We are a nonprofit. All non profits have a board of directors, and I was really thrilled that they suggested, hey, why don't we do like a final celebratory episode in which we, the board, interview you, Katherine, about the journey we're on.with Uncertain. And I honestly was so in the zone of like, okay, I need to finish the season. I need to wrap it up. I need to get everything out. I need to do the promo and I need to do the recording and I need to do the editing and just kind of full on just work task mode. And so the fact that the board suggested, hey, let's do an episode to sort of commemorate and celebrate.That was really helpful. I really appreciated it. It meant so much to me and this episode meant a lot to me as well. This whole journey has meant so much to me. I'm going to talk more about it in the episode itself during the interview. Be sure to sign up for our newsletter, the Tears of Eden newsletter, so that you can stay [00:02:00] updated on everything that is continuing to happen with Tears of Eden, including but not limited to a book about spiritual abuse that I am currently writing and will be releasing next year 2025. Thank you all so much for listening. Uh, so before I start crying, I will turn it over to the board of directors of Tears of Eden.Here is the final episode where the board of directors interviews Katherine Spearing Erin: Will you like edit things? Oh, definitely. I'll definitely Katherine: edit it. Yeah. And I'll probably just kind of speak, speak openly, and then decide later if I care.you're gonna edit Erin: yourself. I'm definitely Katherine: going to edit myself. I probably edit myself more than I edit guests, honestly, because they're going to be going to be real about that. I was like, why do I say like so much? I say like so much. Erin: You like it. You like it. I like to say like, [00:03:00] exactly. Katherine: So can we have everybody introduce yourselves? Your name, where you're located, your pronouns, and what how you found Tears of Eden, and then what made you want to be on the board of directors aside from me coercing you into it?Brad: Nicky threatening my life. Erin: That'll do it. Nicole: That's because Catherine threatened my life, so I just was passing down the baton. Hey, Erin: I didn't get threatened. I feel left out. Brad: Well, don't worry. That means you saved on therapy bills. It's okay. And Katherine: we are not a cult. Nicole: No. No. We've had enough of those. Katherine: Nikki, why Nicole: don't you go first?Okay. I am Nikki G, and certified trauma recovery coach, and I specialize in religious trauma, cult recovery, and narc abuse, and I hail from the state of Texas. And [00:04:00] how did I find this safe space that I found that I'm in right now? Well, I met Catherine, maybe about 2021, I think and we connected that way, came on our podcast with myself and another coach.And We just hit it off. We found that we had a lot of commonality and our hearts were both centered on, obviously, recovering ourselves, but also helping those who have gone through horrendous forms of spiritual abuse and religious trauma. And so, you know, Catherine reached out to me, I think the end of 2021, and said, Hey!There's a board seat. You want to get on the board? No, she didn't say it that easy, but she was just saying, I would love to have you. I think, you know we hit it off well, and I think we have the same vision. And so I came on board. I remember her. I'm not going to do that now, but I remember her explaining to me how tears of Eden, the actual name came to being, and I just fell in love with that.[00:05:00] And she didn't have the strong army. And so I said, yes. And I've been on the board since the beginning of 2022. So that's my story and I'm sticking with it Katherine: and Nikki has been with me through many a trial tears of Eden related. Yeah. And it's gotten me through many things. Very, very grateful, and also runs the support groups or has run the past few support groups that we've done.Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful support group, support person, wonderful human being. Erin, you want to go next? Erin: Hi everyone so my name is Erin Pickerskill and I'm the, I'm an Episcopal priest in the Diocese of Missouri. And my pronouns are she, her I've been a priest for a few years and as I was training to be a priest, I was in England and had some of my own experiences of spiritual abuse and religious trauma.And as I was. Trying to find out if this thing was even real. [00:06:00] Found myself stomping around the British countryside, walking my dogs and listening to Catherine's voice on the Tia's of Eden podcast on certain and like just praying and wishing and hoping that I could find a community that would understand me and validate my experiences and ended up moving to St.Louis after that. And so did Catherine. So I asked Catherine if I could take her out for a coffee. And And thank her for all of the validatio...
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S5:E15 - What if I Get Sued? Protecting Yourself When Telling Your Story Featuring Jenai Auman
Jul 23, 202401:10:47Tap to summarizeS5:E15 - What if I Get Sued? Protecting Yourself When Telling Your Story Featuring Jenai Auman Katherine Spearing New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other SideThis is one of the most important and practical episodes you will likely ever listen to! As more people speak out publicly, sharing their stories of abuse in the church, more and more churches, denominations, and pastors are growing litigious, further abusing victims in civil court. If you're thinking of going public with your story, LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE! Featuring Jenai Auman, author of the recently released book Othered. We'll Cover: Question to ask yourself before going public with your storyThings to consider before going publicTips to mitigate your riskHOW to prepare IF you get suedWhat to expect from lawyersAnd More* Disclaimer: This is NOT legal Advice! * Read this article, written by Jenai, that inspired Katherine to ask her to talk about this on the podcast. This is seriously one episode Katherine has REALLY wanted to do. Jenai wrote a companion article with examples of corroboration here. Jenai Auman is a Filipina American writer, artist, and author of Othered. She draws from her experience and education to write on healing, hope, and holistic spiritual formation practices.Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitionersSign up for Tears of Eden’s newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing’s upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/aboutUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain.Starting in April of this year, I began partnering with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, working as a practitioner for this organization. This organization's CEO is Dr. Laura Anderson. You may be familiar with her. She's been on the pod a couple of different times. She's also the author of the book, When Religion Hurts You.She's awesome. She's the boss. I work with her and a bunch of other really great practitioners over there. If you are looking for mental health professional, a trained, highly qualified, highly experienced mental health professional that can help you navigate religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and all of the sub categories that fall beneath that.I encourage you to check out Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. I am currently accepting a few new clients, and there are several other practitioners that are also accepting clients. I know that's a big thing that comes up a lot in the religious trauma spiritual abuse [00:01:00] world is folks just really struggling to find a mental health professional that understands religious trauma and spiritual abuse and the nuances and complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism and church culture.So if that is something that you are looking for, I encourage you to check them out. The link will be in the show notes. Also in April of this year, I signed a book deal with Lake Dry Books. My book, Surprise Surprise is about spiritual abuse. It will be coming out in sometime in 2025. Date is yet to be determined, so I encourage you to sign up for Tears of Eden's mailing list for updates on the release of that book. The need that this book is going to fill in the world of religious trauma and spiritual abuse recovery, that is something that I see lacking in theIt's the need of making the connection between the theology of evangelicalism that actually leads [00:02:00] to the abuse happening. I'm not seeing that a lot in the literature today. Our guest a couple of weeks ago, Krista Brown, she made that connection in her memoir, Baptist Land. But outside of that, it's not really a common thing that folks are addressing. So I felt like it was a pretty important subject to navigate in my book. It's going to be mostly. Following my journey of recovery, but it's not a memoir and it is also going to be pulling some stuff from the work with Tears of Eden. There are direct quotes from podcasts that you may have listened to So sign up for the mailing list so that you can get updates about that. Today's guest is my friend and colleague Janai Allman, and I am so excited about this episode. This is an episode that I have been wanting to do for a couple years. And a few weeks before Janai had, and I had this episode scheduled to record, she sent out a Substacks article about the very subject [00:03:00] that we're going to be talking about today.We are going to talk about her book that just came out, Othered, and we are going to talk about the book a little bit as well, But Janai graciously agreed to have this conversation with me because we both learned a lot of things about telling our stories publicly and how to stay safe and also make sure we get to say our side of the story and those two things are super important on the other side of abuse.So very excited about this episode. I hope this is one that people will re listen to over and over and over again, and I am so excited to be able to include this as a resource for Tears of Eden and for folks who encounter Tears of Eden. Janai Almon is a Filipina American writer and artist who draws from her years in church leadership as well as her trauma informed training to write on healing, hope, and the way forward.She is passionate about providing language to readers so they can find a faith inspiring that freeze. She received her bachelor's degree in behavioral health science, and is currently pursuing a [00:04:00] master's in spiritual formation at Northeastern Seminary. Janiyah lives in Houston, Texas with her husband, Tyler, and their sons, Quinn and Graham.Here is my interview with Janiyah Allman Katherine: Hello, Janai. Jenai: Hi. How are you? I'm really good. I'm so glad we're doing this. Katherine: Yes, me too. I'm very excited about this episode and the subject that we are going to talk about today because it is one, as you and I have, talked about prior to the episode is something that is a big discussion within the survivor community for folks who are wanting to go public with their stories and discussing how to protect ourselves from the potential for a civil lawsuit.It is not an uncommon thing and it's becoming more common like I'm, I'm seeing it happen a lot. You just went through experience of writing a book before we [00:05:00] jumped on, you talked about going through a legal review when you were writing your book. So everything that we're sharing today is going to just be to help people have some awareness about this experience of going public with your story and protecting yourself because you want to, you want to protect yourself. As we jump in, I definitely want to highlight your book . So give folks a just rundown of what your book is and why you wanted to write this book. Jenai: Yeah, I, so my book is a faith oriented book, so I know that some people who might listen to Uncertain, they might be in varying degrees of faith, or totally deconvert...
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S5:E14 - A Recovering Evangelical Testimony Featuring Mattie Jo Cowsert
Jul 9, 202401:02:10Tap to summarizeS5:E14 - A Recovering Evangelical Testimony featuring Mattie Jo Cowsert Katherine Spearing New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other SideMattie Jo Cowsert was a pastor’s kid and proud purity ring wearer before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate. When marriage equality passed in 2015, Mattie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything she’d been taught about this Jesus guy in her first publicly released blog post entitled: God and the Gays. This was the start of her popular blog, God, Sex, and Rich People. Before terms like “deconstruction”, “purity culture” or “Exvangelical'' became hashtags viewed by billions, God, Sex, and Rich People exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female Exvangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the 1%, and trying to have good sex without hating herself in the city that never sleeps (and never stops sleeping around).Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024. Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitionersSign up for Tears of Eden’s newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing’s upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/aboutUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Uncertain is the affiliate podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse from the evangelical community. So I don't think I've had the chance to officially announce, But in April of this year, I partnered with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery to work as a practitioner for them. Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery is a online agency that works with survivors of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, purity culture, folks who are deconstructing, All of the things, and it's 100 percent online, so you can meet with a practitioner online.So many folks are addressing the religious trauma that came from evangelicalism, from working in the church, and they're looking for good mental health professionals that understand this. I know that with most of the clients that I work with, they [00:01:00] have already worked with therapists before in the past.But one of the main things that they struggled with in their therapy relationship was that the therapist didn't understand the nuances and the complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism. So if you are looking for a mental health practitioner to help you navigate the complex and confusing and very painful journey of recovering from religious trauma and the trauma from spiritual abuse, I encourage you to check them out. I'm a practitioner there. I see clients one on one. I currently have a client.Few openings for new clients and there are also several other practitioners that have openings for clients as well. So that is an option available to you. Another thing that I haven't announced yet on the podcast is that In April, also in April of this year, I signed a book contract. I am working with Lake Drive Books as my publisher for this book.[00:02:00] And what do you know? The book is about spiritual abuse. It will contain a A lot of my journey, but my journey also entails working with clients, working with survivors through Tears of Eden, there are some genuine quotes that are taken straight from some of the podcast episodes here. So you'll be in familiar territory.One of the gaps in the current literature around spiritual abuse that my book is going to hopefully fill is addressing the reality that The theology and evangelicalism and in the modern day church actually has a massive impact on the rampant abuse that we are now seeing in the church.I haven't seen a lot of that connection made in the current literature that's out there. Our previous guest from last week, Krista Brown, she made that connection really well. Like this theology actually leads to the abuse. So Other than that, I just really haven't seen that much happening. So that's one [00:03:00] of the things that's going to be showing up in this book as well. That's just a little bit of a sneak peek. We'll probably do some sort of launch event through Tears of Eden when it comes out in 2025. The exact date is still to be decided, but subscribe to Tears of Eden's newsletter so that you can get updates on that book when it's coming out and all of the deets around that. The guest today is Maddie Jo Kausert. Maddie Jo was a pastor's kid and proud purity ring wearer, before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion, thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate.When marriage equality passed in 2015, Maddie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything she'd been taught about this Jesus guy in her first public release blog post entitled, God and the Gays. This was the start of her popular blog.God, sex, and rich people. Before terms like deconstruction, purity culture, or [00:04:00] evangelical became hashtags viewed by billions, God, sex, and rich people exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female evangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the one percent, And trying to have good sex without hating herself in a city that never sleeps and never stops sleeping around.Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024.Maddie is hilarious and super fun, so I'm very much looking forward to reading her book when it releases. Here is my interview with Maddie Jo Kausert. Katherine: Well, welcome, Glenda, to have you here. I love the title of your book. Why don't you tell us the title of your book? Mattie: I Katherine: will. Mattie: Yes. God's Sex and Rich People, a Recovering Evangelical Testimony. Katherine: Fantastic. And you are coming from New York, where you work as an actor?Mattie: Mm hmm. Katherine: Actor. Mattie: And now [00:05:00] author. Now author. Actor, writer, shameless overshare is what I say. Or sometimes I say actor, writer, babysitter for billionaires. It kind of depends on my crowd. Katherine: Are you still a babysitter for billionaires? Mattie: I am. I am a babysitter. You know, something of the, of the unexpected twists and turns my life has taken.I did not foresee my being like solely raised to be a mom and a wife to be so lucrative. Incredibly lucrative in New York City. There are lots of, of, and I'm not saying this is true of my family, of the family I work for, but there are lots of families in New York that actually don't want to parent their kids.So I'm great. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. I'm Mattie: good at it. Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. I had a life where I nannied. I enjoyed it. I like, Mm-Hmm, . I really enjoyed it. And there are times where I consider going back to it because . Mattie: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm...
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S5: E13- Addressing Clergy Abuse Featuring Christa Brown
Jun 26, 202400:36:00Tap to summarizeS5: E13- Addressing Clergy Abuse Featuring Christa Brown Katherine Spearing New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other Side-Described as "the public face" of Baptist clergy sex abuse survivors, Christa Brown was one of the first to go public with substantiated child sex abuse allegations against a Baptist minister and documentation that others knew. Since then, for nearly two decades, she has worked to shine a light on the systemic problem of abuse and cover-ups in Baptistland.Christa has been touted in the London Times as "a whistleblower of historic proportions." Her work was spotlighted on ABC's 20/20, and she has been quoted and featured in numerous news outlets, including New York Times, Washington Post, Associated Press, Houston Chronicle, VICE, Religion News Service, Tennessean, National Public Radio, Baptist News Global, Christianity Today, and Huffington Post.After a 25-year career as an appellate attorney, Christa became a yoga teacher. As a runner, she once placed first in her age-category in a 10-K. "It was a rainy, blustery day, and I gained the edge by simply showing up," she says.Though a native Texan, Christa currently lives with her husband in Colorado where she loves to hike in the Rocky Mountains. She is a proud mom and grandma. Connect with Christa on Twitter @ChristaBrown777.Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is unedited for typos and misspellings[00:00:00] the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support. You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening. Today I am with Krista Brown discussing her new memoir, Baptist Land, where she discusses her experiences addressing clergy sexual abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention it's a very powerful book. And it is a very needed book for this day and age when it seems like every day we have another story in the news about another clergy person abusing a congregant, a [00:01:00] child. It's rampant. So, super important book.Really hope that you get a chance to read it. During the interview, we had some internet connection issues. I did my best to remove some of the bumps and clicks and gaps. Hopefully it will not impact your listening experience today. Here is my interview with Krista Brown. Katherine: How are you doing today, Krista? How has it been since the launch of the book? Christa: Well, it's been very busy since the launch of the book, but I'm very, very gratified and grateful for for the positive response that there's been. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. What are some consistent things that you've been receiving from folks?Christa: Well, I think among survivors church to survivors, There's a lot in it that really resonates with people and, and I'm glad for that because I [00:02:00] think it helps people See some of the patterns of their own lives and realize that they aren't alone. But of course, it's not just for survivors I mean it also I think has been resonating with a lot of people who simply grew up in these very high control kinds of Religious environments And they see their own, they see those patterns too, even if they aren't the patterns of direct sexual abuse, they're also the patterns, just how much they were under the thumb of this religious control.Katherine: I think that's one of the things that I really appreciate about the book is that you're not just saying here is the abuse and the abuse is bad and this is why abuse is bad. You're also exposing the theological foundation that is where the the soil for where that abuse grows. Exactly. And I don't I feel like that is missing in a lot of literature about abuse in the church.There's like this [00:03:00] like qualifying statement of just like, but don't worry, the church is still good. It's just these bad people doing these bad things. And I really appreciate how you expose. Oh, it's a lot more than just a handful of folks being abusive and doing bad things. really appreciate that.Christa: Yes. And all of that soil, as you call it is very, very powerful and the, the control and the authority and the domination that derives from it is very insidious. Katherine: Yeah, Christa: and I think can be enormously harmful. Katherine: Yes, absolutely. And so complex as you, you showed of just all the different dynamics and for you specifically, you had abuse happening in your home.At the same time as it was happening in the church. And so it was just kind of all, all of these layers [00:04:00] of social dynamics and family dynamics and power dynamics all wrapped up and, you know, faith in God and all Christa: normalized. Yes, not only normalized but legitimized by the faith. Katherine: And anytime.Anytime. you expressed any like said no or I'm uncomfortable or I don't like this or fight for yourself then it was like immediate gaslighting and immediate like You are the problem. And of course, it's perpetuated of anyone who like, just like raises their hand and just says like, I'm a, I'm a little, you know, and then for incentive for people to even fight.No, it's happening, but like, to even fight to try and change it. It's you just get squashed so fast. Christa: That is exactly right. And that's. Why it's so very [00:05:00] hard for people, I think, to step outside of these environments because You know, it's like you're put in this little box and you try to occasionally peek outside that box and you get poked in the eye, you know, and you reach a hand outside the box and it gets slapped down and that box is pretty tight.It Katherine: really is. It really is. What are some things that are common for you and for you have seen as common for survivors that are things that are just associated with this type of abuse, the sexual abuse, the spiritual abuse that's happening in these communities that make it difficult for them to interact with faith communities?Christa: Well, I mean, the, the faith community itself and all of the accoutrements of faith are often kind of neurologically networked in with sexual abuse. And that's not a cognitive thing that people [00:06:00] hold in their heads. It's, it's a physiological response. It's not as if we can reason our way out of it and say, Oh, well, fine.I'm going back to my faith group. Because there were these good things over there because it's all kind of intermixed together neurologically in the same way that that language is intermixed with everything we hold and think. And I think it's very hard for people at the same time. And a lot of ways if we were, you know, if we've been raised in these faith groups.from toddler hood. It's almost like we have a chip implanted in our brain because it's very, very hard to get past that that control because we have been indoctrinated and raised To give religious leaders the benefit of the doubt, to be trusting of them to give grace to be good and all that goes along with, with goodness and being good.Oh, it would just not be so [00:07:00] good, right? Katherine: But then for the good people, like it works on the good people. And. majority of folks are and so as you just ...
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S5: E12 - How Twisted Teaching on Suffering Traps Victims in Abusive Situations Featuring Rebecca Davis
Jun 12, 2024Tap to summarizeS5: E12 - How Twisted Teaching on Suffering Traps Victims in Abusive Situations Featuring Rebecca Da Katherine Spearing In this episode, we’ll discuss how the church’s common stance on suffering for Christ often gets twisted in such a way that victims feel they cannot leave abusive homes, churches, or jobs.Rebecca Davis is a trauma-informed writer, book coach, speaker, compassionate witness, prayer minister, and lover of Jesus who lives in Greenville, South Carolina. Her work as a trauma-informed book coach and ghostwriter can be found at rebeccadaviswordworking.com.Find a list of all Rebeccas Untwisting Scriptures books here: https://heresthejoy.com/books-2/Listen to another Uncertain Episode with Rebecca S4:E12 Untwisting Teachings Around Loyalty, Sin Leveling, & BitternessUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is unedited for typos and misspellings:[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. The uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support. You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening. Katherine: Hi, Rebecca. How are you? It's so good to be here. Thank you for having me, Catherine. I'm excited to talk about your new book, book five, where you're on twisting scriptures about brokenness and suffering. Yes, Rebecca: book five and the untwisting scripture series. My daughter asked me how many books in this series I was going to write.I said, I do not know. I'm going to keep going. [00:01:00] Katherine: Keeps coming up. I'm excited about this one. Because, well, I'm excited about all of them. I think they're all really important, but this one, I think the teaching about brokenness and suffering in the church. will often keep people in abusive situations and keep them recognizing that.And so this is really important, really, really important. And so we had another interview with you when your book four came out and so I'm going to link that in the show notes so folks have That to listen to as well, but to just get us started, I would love to hear what fuels your passion for writing these books.Rebecca: Oh boy. That's a really, really good question. For one thing, when I first got started, the first untwisting scriptures book came out in 2016 and then it was about four years before I really got the series rolling, which is not a great way to do a series, but anyway, that's what happened. But my first initial [00:02:00] passion was.I hated, hated seeing how God, and this was all new to me 10 years ago, seeing how God was being represented as an abuser. And it wasn't that I'd never heard the teachings. It's because I didn't grow up with abuse. I didn't marry into abuse. I hadn't been subject to the abuse, so I didn't see. I was just blind.To how the logical conclusion of these teachings, where that logical conclusion would go, because it was all theory to me, it hadn't been worked out in practice, but then when I saw when I heard people coming to me about this and saying, well, I was taught you have to give up all your rights was thinking, you know, kind of remember that somewhere.Well, I'd been to the Bill Gothard seminars that taught about giving up your rights many years before, but I hadn't, and I thought at the time, you know, I just believed everything he said, but there wasn't ever in my life, ever a time when my rights weren't acknowledged. [00:03:00] And just like part of the air I breathed because I was not in abuse.So then I see when people who are in abuse are being told, give up your rights. I see. Starting in 2012, the logical conclusion this is coming to, that they are going to be absolutely trampled on. And I'm, I'm astonished and appalled at what's happening to these people. And then the next step is I'm astonished and appalled that God is being represented this way.They think this is what God wants to do. And so that was my initial passion fueling me. Now I'm seeing it actually in the Bible who God really is, that he is not how these people have represented him.Katherine: Yeah, and and folks are able to determine what that looks like for them and what their beliefs look like for them and not base those beliefs on abusive people who've been teaching [00:04:00] them these abusive messages. And that's I feel like that's really important for me for folks to create their own journey and not base it on because so many things I think in the church are just either tradition.Or really harmful things that have been taught to us by. Yes, Rebecca: like listen to authority. You someone wrote to me and said yours that she was taught. I'm supposed to lead and feed and you're supposed to follow and swallow. I think that's how it went. Oh, my God. I thought I had never heard that one reaction to that.So that's that. That could be so many things. And yet that is so it's like, I was I was feeling some some, some strong emotions in response to that. But it's that authority teaching. Turn your brain off. Turn your brain off. Do not think. If you think, then you've been ungodly or something. You just have to believe me, the [00:05:00] leader, and follow me.Whereas, I've always believed since I was young and want to encourage other people. Go to the Bible yourself. Look at it yourself. Let's examine everything Untwisting Scriptures books. Go look at it yourself and see what the Bible is really teaching. Katherine: And be prepared for where that may lead, depending on the environment that you're in.Rebecca: Yes. And I hope I hope my hope is that it will lead to seeing that God really is a God who loves his people and wants to be with his people. And one of the best representations in the scriptures, I mean, there are many good ones, but one of the best is that father who's running out to the prodigal son and embracing him and bringing him in and Even wanting to have a relationship with his older son, who's, who's unhappy.Let's, I'll just put it that way, very unhappy. He wants, he wants relationship. He is a God of relationship. And the more I research the [00:06:00] topic, the untwisting scriptures, the more I see that in my study. God is a God of relationship with his people, healthy, Good relationship, not abusive relationship, not just, just obey me and stop whining, those are all things that are, I'm very, very passionate about. Katherine: So , book five, Brokenness and Suffering, what are some of the questions that you're seeking to answer with this? Rebecca: Yes, well, initially when I started this book, it was going to be called, suffering, dying to self and life.And then I started finding I realized, Oh, my goodness, I need to talk about brokenness. That's a huge thing. And then that expanded and expanded. And I realized, dying to self and life, you're gonna have to wait for a future book, I just have to focus on these two things for this book. And that's enough. And when I did start the study of brokenness, which I started, there were two things.One was prompting it. I've been [00:07:00] hearing about brokenness and how we're all broken or we're all supposed to be broken or, or brokenness is, is either godly or it's inevitable. We're just, everybody's broken or something. I was thinking something is off, something is off about all this teaching. And there were two things.That prompted my research ...
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S5:E11 - Escaping Christian Patriarchy with Cait West
May 8, 202400:46:24Tap to summarizeS5:E11 - Escaping Christian Patriarchy with Cait West Katherine Spearing New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other SideCait West is a writer and editor based in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Her work has been published in The Revealer, Religion Dispatches, Fourth Genre, and Hawai`i Pacific Review, among others. As an advocate and a survivor of the Christian patriarchy movement, she serves on the editorial board for Tears of Eden, a nonprofit providing resources for survivors of spiritual abuse.In Cait’s memoir Rift, she tells a harrowing story of chaos and control hidden beneath the facade of a happy family. Weaving together lyrical meditations on the geology of the places her family lived with her story of spiritual and emotional manipulation as a stay-at-home daughter, Cait creates a stirring portrait of one young woman’s growing awareness that she is experiencing abuse. With the ground shifting beneath her feet, Cait mustered the courage to break free from all she’d ever known and choose a future of her own making. Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTranscript is unedited for typos and misspellings:I am so excited about today's guest. Kate West has a very special place in my heart. We met over the internet in the very early days of Tears of Eden, in the early days of the podcast Uncertain. She was the first person that I encountered outside of my family who'd Similar to the way that I had, who was talking about it openly in public, online, we have been friends and colleagues ever since then.Her book is about that experience of growing up in the Christian patriarchy movement in the stay at home daughter movement. We'll talk a little bit about the dynamics of that. podcast before. So I'm going to link to some of those episodes in the show notes. She's also a member of Tears of Eden's editorial board.and is responsible for a lot of the content that is on the Tears of [00:01:00] Yin blog, the website. Super grateful for her. Very grateful for her story. And here is my interview with Kate West. katherine: Well, hello, Kate. Hello. How are you? I'm doing all right it is good to see you. Cait: You too. And I think we both have sunny days. It seems like you have some sunshine in your room. katherine: Yes. It's going to be, it's going to be a relatively warmer weekend. I think like 60s ish. How's weather where you are?Cait: Yeah, I think it might get up to 60 today. And I want to, I want to get outside and start. Scraping around in the dirt and get my garden started, but we'll katherine: see. Speaking of dirt, your book. Cait: What a segue. katherine: Your book is called Rift, and you have a metaphor throughout your book about geology. And the earth, you talk a lot about like the earth [00:02:00] and I'm not even going to try to like get into scientific things.So talk to me about your book, which is the full title is rifts, a memoir of breaking away from Christian patriarchy. You have been on the podcast a couple of times before, so I'm going to link to some of those episodes in the show notes. But talk to me about the, the theme of this book and that metaphor, that geological earth metaphor that you use here.Cait: If you've listened to other interviews, the other interviews, you'll know I grew up similar to you, like, as a stay at home daughter, Christian patriarchy movement, quiverful. And this book is a story of me growing up in that and not understanding the world I was living in until it started going wrong and how I figured out how to leave and my life afterwards.And the idea of rifting comes from [00:03:00] this idea in, Well, there's this interesting thing that happens in geology where the earth splits apart and something like continents can be caused by rifts. You might think of like, there's this big rift in Africa where you can see the rift valley. And where I live in Michigan, rift, a rift started the great lakes.That's, we're surrounded by water in Michigan. And that's, that's partly why I talk about rifting is because I'm surrounded by water and I'm fascinated by this idea of, Breaking away because when I left patriarchy, I, I wanted to start over, start with a clean slate and never have to think about my past again.And so I wanted to break away, right? But, but I couldn't escape who I am and where I came from. No matter what I tried, it, it kept coming back. And I feel like that trauma is stored in your body and you just can't. Move on without healing from that. So the idea of a rift is both sides of it [00:04:00] are the same materials, you know, the same ground, but over time they change.in separate ways. So I've, I've moved on from the Christian patriarchy movement. There's still part of me that is because of what happened to me, but I'm changing now and I'm separated from it in a way that allows me to grow. So that's just like a bigger metaphor I'm using throughout the book. It helps me to think bigger picture instead of focusing in on my own story all the time.It's, it's kind of like a grounding practice. katherine: Oh, for sure. And it's a perfect metaphor too, because the new space or the new geological formation, Comes from the old and it's still the same earth, but it's a, it's completely new thing. And it's perfect. And I've been thinking about that so much lately, because I think we all have this leaning of [00:05:00] like, of wanting to have a before and an after, and like, I went through this, but then I healed and now I'm better.And here I am. And this, the reality is. We are impacted forever. Especially something as traumatic as what you went through as what I went through impacted our very identities impacted our bodies. We're never going to not have lived that story, but this. new formation and this new life that we create on the other side of it is, is also possible.So it's not like it has to control the narrative of at all. That's perfect. I love it. I love it. I love it as a metaphor. Yeah. So just in case folks are not familiar with the Christian patriarchy. Would you mind talking about some of the key factors and, and feel free [00:06:00] to just share like how that showed up in your family as well.Cait: Sure. I try to explain this in the beginning of the book because it's, I feel like, I relate to a lot of cult documentaries and cult vocabulary, but the Christian patriarchy movement isn't one singular church. It's this bigger movement. And there are churches within that, but they're across different denominations.And what's really happening is each family is a cult. I know you've talked about that too, where the fathers are the cult leaders and. The mothers, the wives and the mothers are supposed to obey their husbands and all things and then the children under underneath that so It's this hierarchy But it's based on this literal interpretation of of the Bible at least a cherry picked version of that I would say a katherine: version of the a version Cait: And it's this it's really problematic [00:07:00] Belief system where men are on the top, women are beneath them and women essentially don't have any agency in this system.And so you see it in a lot of churches. Some churches will actually say they're patriarchal and they're proud of it, but then other churches will be more subtle about it. And I consider something like complementarianism to be. a version of patriarchy. It's just more, more subtle, something like soft patriarchy.So the bigger movement, I think we grew up like in the nineties where This was a big part of the homeschooling movement, quiverful ideology, having as many children as you can. So it's all tied together, I think, with that, and it's connected to evangelicalism. So it's very complicated. And people are still living this way, so katherine: Yes, they are.A lot of Cait: churches who are patriarchal. katherine: And I think the connecti...
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S5: E10 - Signs of a Cult - with Sarah Edmonson
Apr 17, 202400:49:49Tap to summarizeS5: E10 - Signs of a Cult - with Sarah Edmonson Katherine Spearing New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other SideWe’re talking about how one of the characteristics of a cult is that they often present as a really good thing. A lot of times, they are doing really good things on the surface. If this weren’t the case, people wouldn’t be joining them. Additionally, not every cult starts as a cult. Sometimes it starts as on organization with really good intentions to help people. We’ll discuss all of that, in this episode. https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_edmondson_how_to_spot_a_cultSarah Edmondson is a Canadian actress who has starred in the CBS series Salvation and more than twelve films for the Hallmark Channel and Lifetime. She is also a well-established voice-over artist for popular series such as Transformers: Cybertron and My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. In 2005, when NXIVM, a personal and professional development company, promised to provide the tools and insight Sarah needed to reach her potential, she was intrigued. Over her twelve-year tenure, she went from student to coach and eventually operated her own NXIVM center in Vancouver. Questions kept coming up about the organization’s rules and practices, which came to a head in 2017 when she accepted an invitation from her best friend to join DOS, a “secret sisterhood” within NXIVM.In 2019, Sarah published Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult that Bound My Life, with Kristine Gasbarre. In this tell-all memoir, she shares her story from the moment she takes her first seminar to her harrowing fight to get out. Her full story as a whistleblower is featured in the CBC podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM (downloaded over 25 million times) and The Vow, the critically acclaimed HBO documentary series on NXIVM. Now with the launch of “A Little Bit Culty,” Sarah and her co-host/husband Anthony “Nippy” Ames are keeping the conversation going by discussing the healing process with the help of experts and fellow survivors.Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is unedited for typos and misspellings:Katherine: Well, hello, Sarah, Sarah: how are you? I'm great. How are you Katherine: doing? Okay. Do you know? Okay. It has been gloomy and St. Louis and today the first sign of sunshine and I like went outside to like be in the sun, but it was 30 degrees. And so I didn't stay there very long, but. It's beautiful today. Beautiful to see the sun.How are, how's the weather in your area? Sarah: I'm in Atlanta. We're in our very brief winter and it's, it's, it's just a couple of weeks, I think. And it really fluctuates on a day to day basis and I have no idea what's in store and I'm just getting used to that as a concept. Yeah. Katherine: I just kind of ups and downs.Yeah. Yes. I have relatives in the Atlanta area and I hear about the bipolar weather. Of yeah, very [00:02:00] similar to St. Louis fun times. Well, thank you so much for being here and your openness to telling your story here. Really excited to hear from you just about The impact of your experience in NXIVM and then your recovery process.You also have your podcast, a little bit culty that I highly recommend to everyone. It's just entertaining. It's good stuff and you learn a lot, but then it's also super entertaining. And so I hope folks will listen to that as well, but you get to interact with a lot of cult survivors through that. And so I w I'm very interested to hear.Just patterns and things that you have seen as you have been doing your podcast and working with folks in this, this area. But just to just start us, start us off for folks who may not know who you are or have not seen the vow or maybe haven't. About on HBO or the, or have listened to your podcast and you give us a little summary of who you are and why you are here. Sarah: [00:03:00] Sure. So my cliff notes slash, you know, elevator story, which I've had to use a fair bit since moving to Atlanta is that I am, you know, from Canada, born and raised, I. I pursued acting as a teenager and young adult, and I took a little tangent, a little detour when I joined a personal and professional development program, which I was taking to help me with my goals as an actor and my relationship at the time.And that was really wonderful in many ways for a long time at first. And it ended up being 12 years later, after many missed red flags, I didn't understand what I was looking at. A high control group or some, some people know this term as a cult, but I realized there's basically bad things going on behind closed doors and the personal development program that I'd been touting for many years as an advocate and as a recruiter for the company.I say company loosely was really a front [00:04:00] for our pipeline, for the leadership. To coerce and manipulate and ultimately not in all cases and not not for me, but for many people sex traffic as well So that's why it is now known as the sex cult in the in the newsletter And I newsletter sorry in the newspapers The headlines media does love a good sensational story.Sure do. Yes, as they sure do. And my role in that was that I was one of the whistleblowers that showed the physical abuse, which is the physical manifestation of emotional abuse, which had been going on for years in the form of branding. And I showed that on the New York times cover and that led to an investigation and the trial and eventual conviction of the leader.Six week trial led to 120 year conviction of the leader. And that was I left six years ago. The trial was about four years ago and three years ago, two and a half years ago. My sense of time is a [00:05:00] little off. My husband and I were in a docuseries that, that documented this whole journey, how we got in and how we escaped on HBO max called the vow.And that really propelled us into this really interesting space where, where we were now sharing something that a lot of people could relate to is like, Oh, I would've, I would've totally joined that. And that's flipped the script as a lot up until then. So many people we encountered, especially since leaving and shouting from the rooftops, we were in a cult you know, they were watching it going.I could have, I could have fallen for that when that's very different when the past people would say I would never have fallen for that. And that's opened up a whole, you know, set of bizarre doors and opportunities for us as whistleblowers and survivors to speak about our experience. Educate people. And that's been like a phenomenally rewarding thing.And ironically, and I didn't say this at the beginning, I, one of the reasons I joined next team as well was to help people. I was, you know, I really enjoyed that process and [00:06:00] now I get to do it for real on the other side and help educate, shine light, prevent, help people get out. If they're already in something, help people heal.If they've already gotten out. All the different stages along the way and help families. And overall just bring awareness to this topic that is kind of become a lot more mainstream now. Narcissism, cultic abuse, gaslighting. It's much more accessible and people are more aware of it. So it's been an interesting time to be part of the zeitgeist in that way.And and then now we have a podcast that emerged in COVID when we had stopped acting. So it's been a interesting, organic progression to be a podcaster as I wrote a book and also and now doing more speaking events and panels on the topic. So yeah, here we are....
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S5:E9 - The Role of Anger in Healing & Empowerment with Dr. Laura Anderson (Most Loved)
Apr 10, 202400:42:17Tap to summarizeS5:E9- The Role of Anger in Healing & Empowerment with Dr. Laura Anderson (Most Loved) Katherine Spearing New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other SideOne of our Most Loved episodes from Season Three, exploring common misguided perspectives of anger and how befriending our anger can help us heal.Dr. Laura Anderson is the cofounder of the Religious Trauma Institute, and founder of Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery she’s a licensed therapist, and professor of psychology. Instagram//Facebook: @drlauraeandersonSupport Groups https://www.tearsofeden.org/support-groupsPodcast Collaboration Form https://www.tearsofeden.org/formListen to Trauma and Pop Culture: https://www.katherinespearing.com/trauma-and-pop-cultureUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportGet more info on Pop Culture and Trauma podcast on Instagram @katherinespearing
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S5:E8 - Stuff Christians Say -with Ashley Love Richards and Fallon Morey
Mar 20, 202400:58:04Tap to summarizeS5:E8 - Stuff Christians Say -with Ashley Love Richards and Fallon Morey Katherine Spearing New book on Spiritual Abuse available from the founder of Tears of Eden: A Thousand Tiny Paper Cuts: The Subtle, Insidious Nature of Spiritual Abuse and Life on the Other SideThis episode is with Ashley Love Richards and Fallon Morey, cohosts of TSFU the PodcastKatherine and Fallon play a game with Ashley asking her Christian Clichés to see if she knows what they mean. We also discuss the perspectives Catholics and protestants have of one another, the origin of Alcoholics Anonymous (spoiler, it’s Christian), and whether or not AA is a cult. This conversation is comical and fun—and borderline irreverent. Shoot Christians Say YouTube Video is the video we watch in this episode! Katherine was interviewed in The New F Word Episode with TSFU. Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is unedited for typos and misspellings Katherine: [00:00:00] I actually, hi, Fallon. Hi. These are my two friends that I just met through. That's a fucked up podcast, and we had a blast hanging out and, and, and interview doing an interview. I had a blast hanging out with them and doing an interview with them.And so we decided to do this episode. Fallon grew up similar to me in evangelicalism and Ashley did not. So we're going to play a game called Stuff Christians Say, where Fallon and I are going to introduce Christian sayings to Ashley and ask her what she thinks they mean. And this is a like Not a pass fail like no, like there's, there are no stakes here other than testing your Christian, your Christian knowledge before I, I'm going to play a video, a little video to, to get us warmed up, but before I do that.Ashley and Fallon. I would love to hear what brings you here today. Ashley, go Ashley: first. What's up, Kathryn? [00:01:00] Hey! Super excited to be here. So yeah, I have a podcast called that's so fucked up and it's about Colts and murder and other generally fucked up stuff.Although I would say I primarily focus on Colts and coercive groups and I can high control groups. Obviously that's more where your podcast and your stories fit into. I saw Jesus camp 17 years ago when it came out in 2006. I saw a bunch of evangelical children being brainwashed at a camp to Take abortion out of the you know, take abortion rights away because a third of their fucking friends could have been there that night and they weren't.And then I saw it 17 years later, like right after our abortion rights got taken away. And I was like, hold on, this is a long game. And then I saw shiny, happy [00:02:00] people and I've been obsessed with high control, coercive Christianity ever since. So I'm very excited to have met you through me and Fallon doing a segment called the new f word.The f word was fundamentalism fundamentalism and Actually, it's really funny or it's actually really fun the episode that Catherine was on was called the new f word the C and F and E words Which sound like they're going to be really bad, but it was Christianity, nationalism, fundamentalism, and evangelicalism.So, you know, really, I had a lot of fun. I thought that was fun. Katherine: That was one of my funnest, my funnest or most fun. I don't know. Funnest, funnest episodes that I've ever, ever interviewed on. I had a great time with y'all. Ashley: I wanted to make sure that we knew what the fuck we were talking about before we started [00:03:00] talking about it, because as you said, I have, I am not religious, I did not grow up with any religion, I have a Patreon segment where I learn about the Bible, it's called Ash Learns the Bible, because I knew about that one story, I think Solomon, where they try to cut the baby in half, and I was like, That is fucked up.Is there other shit like that? Because I want to hear about it. So, basically, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Christianity has taken over my life somehow. Katherine: That's an intellectual exercise. Ashley: Yeah, not in That I'm involved with it, but I'm just fascinated and I'm fascinated Katherine: when I meet people who didn't grow up the way that I did because it's so normal and it's so normalized and then as you mentioned on the episode that we did together that I will link in the show notes about How 80 percent of [00:04:00] the United States identifies as Christian, there's so much that's just like very inundated into the culture and most people have had some kind of like church experience.And so when I can't encounter people who don't have any, any upbringing in that I'm fascinated by that. What was your life like? Yeah, it's like, oh! How did you, how did you do Ashley: that? I'll tell you, I'll tell you one thing that made my life different and a lot better that I definitely know, and Did I grow up with fear and shame as a child?Yes, I grew up in a house with a narcissist. But, I tell you what, I was not afraid that any fuck up that I did was going to get me sent to hell. I didn't even know about hell, you know? Like, you guys were constantly in fear that you were going to go there. I didn't even know that it was a fucking thing. I think I saw all dogs go to heaven and...I knew heaven was like a, probably a cool place for [00:05:00] dogs. Yeah. But that was the extent of my knowledge. Right. I love it. I love it. And it has been up until, up until pretty recently. I Katherine: mean, you're going to know so many things after today, after our game today, the lingo. Yeah. And I, I, I, I'm now I'm like worried.Is God going to judge us for playing this game? Fallon: God is not going to judge us for playing this game. Ashley: They loves it, but welcome Katherine: Fallon. Tell us today. Fallon: mainly to talk to you again, cause it was so fun the last time. But then also, like you said, I, I think I've told you before, but I grew up Catholic. So, you know, Catholics are very like religion at arm's length.There's so many rules. There's very like, you know, you spend a lot of money and you go to mass and the mass has like exercises in it where you stand up and sit down a lot and kneel. And my mom used to, or my uncle used to call them the Pope's aerobics when he would go to [00:06:00] mass. And. Around like high school.I started to hang out with Christian people who are more in the evangelical crowd, and I, I think I just wanted to be accepted by somebody. Katherine: Pause. You said you hang out, you hung out with Christian people. Did you not consider yourself a Christian as a Catholic? Fallon: No, not really. Because I wasn't, I wasn't really yourself.Catholic. Yeah. Just Catholic. Like it was like it was I don't know, like it, like it was a nationality or something. Like I, I didn't have a concept of what it meant to be religious because I wasn't really connected to my religion. Like it like you had to go to the dentist, but you just had to do it more frequently.It wasn't like a big deal to me. And then I, I wanted some, like. I want to say I wouldn't, wasn't like meaning and purpose to my life, but I ended up hanging out with kids that like went to church camps and did God stuff. So they bought me my first Bible, the little. [00:07:00] Like tie dyed teen study Bible everyone had in the mid nineties, you know, and They had like the little stories in it and they taught me all about purity culture.Yay. And like good friends do and and then I sort of went on my own path and discovered You know, religion and church when I was in college and then in when I was in the Navy, I got...
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S5:E7 - Church Cults, Trauma, and Humor with Shanny Payton
Feb 28, 202400:56:04Tap to summarizeS5:E7 - Church Cults, Trauma, and Humor - with Shanny Payton Katherine Spearing Shannon Payton (https://shannypantsshow.com/), known as Shanny Pants by many, is a content creator and podcaster living in Rocklin, California. Although Shannon has a successful career as a Realtor, she has equally enjoyed her hobby of sharing her humor through Instagram with friends and family. In 2020 her video about making school lunches went viral, it opened a whole new world for her. She now has many viral videos and hundreds of thousands of social media followers.Her podcast, The ShannyPants Show is currently in its second season. In her interview style podcast, Shannon shares her struggles of growing up in a cult, battles through years of infertility that ended in a hysterectomy and finally her journey to parenthood through foster care and adoption.She enjoys sharing the struggles of life in a humorous way as part of her self-prescribed therapy and through this, has connected with her fans. Her podcast topics include a wide range of subjects which in one way or another relate to something she has been through.Shannon has been a guest on The Kelly Clarkson show and has appeared on local TV show GoodDay Sacramento multiple times. Shannon is currently writing a memoir and is looking forward to giving her followers a deeper look into her life. When Shannon is asked where she gets all of her ideas for her humorous videos she sarcastically states, “I’m married and have kids, that’s all the inspiration I need for some crazy content”. IG: @therealshannypants @shannypantsshowpodcastUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is unedited for typos and misspellings [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Do you ever get to a point where everything is just too much and you just need to take a break? That is kind of how I've been feeling the past few weeks.Around trauma recovery. And abuse dynamics and sometimes it just gets to be a lot and I just need to take a break. So I had to do that over the weekend a little bit. And this episode, I wanted to put this episode out because, uh, the guest today, Shani Payton is just a super funny human being and is comedian her content on social media is.So funny and keeps me laughing all day long and I thought that this episode was going to be like this really funny episode because we recorded it. I think back in like December and I listened to it and I was like, Oh, it's not as funny as I thought it was going to be, but there is some laughter. Fear not. [00:01:00] Shani Payton is a comedian and has hundreds of thousands of followers. So, so, so, so funny, but she has a darker origin story. She grew up in a church cult, and she has been on her own journey of recovery and healing, and humor plays a role in our healing process, and we do get to that at the end, but we also just talked about the dynamics of control and the impact that it has on us, it's just a really great conversation, and I really like Shani a lot. I'm going to link to her website in the show notes so you can follow her on all the things. She also hosts the Shani Pants show, which is a podcast. I was recently on the Shani Pants show, I will link to that episode of my conversation with Shani Payton, also in the show notes.Thanks so much for being here, and if you're having one of those weeks where you just need to take a break, then you know what? [00:02:00] You should. Take a break. Go for a little walk. Have a sip of water. And if you can take a break. for a couple days, sure, just do it. If you can. I highly recommend it. It's good to do that.All of the abuse and trauma it'll still be here when you get back. Pretty sure about that. Alright, so here is my conversation with Shannie Payton of The Shannie Pants Show. Katherine: Hello. Shanny: Oh, it's so good to see you. Good to see you. I'm so Katherine: excited. Me too. Talk about culty things. Talk about abuse things, but then talk about fun things too and ways that giggling and laughter and jokes help us on this amazing healing process. Where do you hail from right now? Shanny: Northern California, right around the Sacramento [00:03:00] area.Katherine: Yeah. I lived in LA for four Shanny: years, so. Oh, did you? Okay. I'm familiar with the stomping grounds. Oh yeah. Just a quick, you know, nine hour little drive for me. Not Katherine: bad at all. No big deal. No big deal. I know. I know every, every time I moved someplace, people would say, Oh, do you know so and so? Because they like live in the state and it's like, This is like a massive state.Other than D. C. where people are like, Oh, my friend blah blah blah lives there. Like, D. C. is so big. No, I have not run into them in the grocery store. No. Well, whenever Shanny: someone says, you know, whenever It seems like when people say, Oh, California. Oh, do you surf? And I'm like, no, no, I do not surf. Like, Katherine: like, because Shanny: it's like how the state is, how long it's like, I live more up in the mountains.And, you know, versus the coast. And, and then even so there's. So many different [00:04:00] coasts as far as, you know, all the way down to the Bay Area. Yeah. So it's funny, but everyone that's like, Oh, do you surf? No, no, you would not want to see that all the time. Katherine: Right? Yeah. Shanny: Quick, quick little weekend trips Katherine: every, every weekend.Shanny: But yes, but I do love where we live. It's beautiful. And I, I. Yeah, I really love it. And I grew up here. I've never moved far from home, so I've always been in the area. Yep. Katherine: Right. All right. Well, I would love to introduce you to folks by hearing your story. The group that you grew up in is very similar to the group that I grew up in with this just very fundamentalist dedication to interpretation of the Bible and I would love to hear what that was like for you growing up and process getting out questioning because you're [00:05:00] not, you're not in it now.Right. Right. Right. Shanny: Otherwise I would not be talking to you because you are Katherine: of the world. I am. We could not communicate. No, no eye contact would be happening. So tell me, tell me a little bit about it. I know a lot of folks in our community are going to really Shanny: yes, I, so I was born into this cult religious cult and up in Northern California. My parents were also born into it. So we had some generational, you know, fun things. We're just dragging around. And, you know, it started out as from as much as I can understand, talking to my grandparents and other older folks it started out as kind of like a, we're going to go not, not even nondenominational.It was just like, we're going to do meetings in our home, basically. So I think it started out as a pretty innocent. Kind of fine thing like just Bible studies and in homes and then it's from what I understand. It sounds like in the [00:06:00] 70s late 70s to 80s The his son is now the current leader, but he took over And we'll call him RG.He, and from that point on is kind of when it became more rule based, fear based and that's when kind of there started to be a lot more things that got put into place and people just kind of, I guess, followed along and went with it. And so in the mid, 80s, there was what we call the split of the 80s, where a large group of people were questioning some of the beliefs and rules and restrictions.And there was a, we call it marking to be avoided, but like an excommunication. So there was a large group that were excommunicated from us in the 80s because they were questioning and you don't do that. And part of my family, Katherine: like in a [00:07:00] group, or was it like, we call you in, into the office Shanny:</strong...
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