Big Dreams, Healthy Rhythms: Avoiding Burnout in Growing Churches with Danny Anderson

Summary

Podcast Summary: unSeminary Podcast

Episode: Big Dreams, Healthy Rhythms: Avoiding Burnout in Growing Churches with Danny Anderson
Host: Rich Birch
Guest: Danny Anderson, Lead Pastor at Emmanuel Church, Indianapolis
Date: February 13, 2025

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Overview

This episode focuses on the crucial interplay between organizational ambition and soul care in church leadership. Rich Birch sits down with Danny Anderson, lead pastor of the rapidly growing Emmanuel Church, to unpack hard-earned lessons about healthy rhythms, vision casting, and practical ways to steward both a growing church and healthy personal life. Danny shares candid stories about navigating painful transitions, creating sustainable staff cultures, and his deeply personal spiritual practices—essential listening for anyone concerned about growth without burnout.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Danny Anderson’s Leadership Journey & Emmanuel Church’s Story

• Danny started at Emmanuel as a high school pastor before being tapped as lead pastor in 2006, following the beloved founding pastor ([01:43]).
• The initial transition was rocky; attendance dipped from 2,000 to 900 as Danny struggled with honoring the past while casting new vision ([02:46]).
  • Quote: “I like to say that, you know, I successfully led the church from 2000 to 900 in about a year and a half.” – Danny ([03:11])
• Revival began once people started inviting friends and catching the vision—leading to growth, new campuses, and continual expansion ([04:10]-[04:27]).

2. Vision Casting after a Founding Pastor

• Danny reflected on mistakes and naivete around honoring the church’s legacy; he focused too early on the future:
  • Quote: “If there’s anybody out there...in a transition, it’s very important for the person coming in behind the pastor…just to honor, honor the past.” – Danny ([05:23])
• Realized only later “the law of buy in,” and the importance of building relational trust before enacting change ([05:23]-[07:56]).
• Ultimately, Danny’s vision rooted in personal salvation experience: “Let’s be a church that reaches people who really need hope...why else would we do church?” ([07:56])

3. Personal Rhythms: Avoiding Burnout and Moral Failure

• The prevalence of burnout and moral failure among notable pastors deeply affected Danny ([09:19]).
  • Quote: “Is it inevitable that this is going to happen to me? …No, that’s not inevitable.” ([09:57])
• He insists the remedy is daily soul care, not merely church size reduction:
  • Central Practice: Daily spiritual disciplines—waking at 5:30am for Scripture, confession, journaling, reading, etc. ([10:16]-[11:44])
• The lead pastor’s most critical job: “take care of their soul...if my soul is healthy…then I can lead well and I won’t shipwreck my faith.” ([10:37])

4. Scripture Meditation as Foundational Practice

• Danny’s central soul-care discipline is active meditation on Scripture—not Eastern-style emptiness, but filling the mind with God's Word ([12:47]).
  • Quote: “Are we actually thinking scripture?...Because if we are, then that’s going to be shaping the way we feel and then…the way we act.” ([14:37])
• Important influence: Dallas Willard on Scripture as life’s interpretive lens, and spiritual maturity as “being able to act the way Jesus would act if he were in your place” ([15:39]-[16:46]).

5. Leadership Modeling & Building a Healthy Staff Culture

• Healthy rhythms don’t end with the lead pastor; Danny is intentional about pushing rest and soul care “down” to his team ([17:29]).
  • Key Practice: Mandatory Sabbath—no one works on Friday, modeled and strictly enforced.
  • “People know I’m serious about it…your soul is more important…than getting results at this church.” ([18:03])
• Staff are expected to call out one another—and Danny—if Sabbath boundaries are violated ([19:21]).
• Modeling emotional and spiritual health ("people are watching my tone of voice...facial expression") is key to culture ([18:41]-[19:21]).

6. Ambition, Church Growth, and Soul Health

• There is tension between the call to reach more people and the dangers of overwork or burnout ([20:27]).
• Danny wrote “Church Growth Unleashed” to encourage pastors who feel guilt about ambition to grow, and help them strike the balance between reaching many and maintaining health.
  • Quote: “I want to make it to the end, Rich. I’m 47. I want to go all the way to the end, hand this church off…in a healthy way and still have a family and a healthy heart…” ([22:19])

7. The “Small Church” Narrative & Critique of Church Size Cynicism

• Some now advocate “staying small” due to publicized failures among megachurch pastors ([23:16]).
• Danny firmly disagrees: “I do not believe the problem is the size of the church. The problem is the pastor did not take care of his soul.” ([23:46])
  • Cites Billy Graham’s diligence in soul care as an example ([24:06]).

8. Unique Challenges of Leading a Large Church

• Birchs floats the notion that mega-church pastors risk boredom; Danny disagrees: growth brings complexity and busyness, demanding continual adaptation ([26:36]).
• Leadership challenges and personal rhythms must be revisited at each stage of church growth ([27:29]-[28:11]).

9. Book & Podcast: Practical Tools for Teams

• Church Growth Unleashed is designed for pastors and team reading: addresses often ignored issues—friendship, physical health, family, balancing excellence and wellness ([28:53]-[30:35]).
  • Quote: “Most pastors are out shape and overweight. So why would you talk about being healthy when you’re not healthy?” ([29:06])
• Cautions against ministry models (e.g., six Christmas Eve services) that lead to staff burnout ([30:04]).
• The companion podcast offers honest, vulnerable conversations to serve and resource church leaders ([31:14]-[31:59]).

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Notable Quotes

• On Transition:
  “I could have done a much better job honoring the past…people were not ready to receive that vision yet.” — Danny Anderson ([05:23])
• On Soul Care:
  “The most important job of a leader is to take care of their soul.” ([10:37])
• On Scripture Meditation:
  “Are we actually thinking scripture?...that’s going to be shaping the way we feel and…the way we act.” ([14:37])
• On Sabbath:
  “[We] incorporate the Sabbath very aggressively here at the church. So nobody’s allowed to work on Friday. And that is huge.” ([18:03])
• On Healthy Ambition:
  “God’s heart is to reach lost people. Lots of them, millions of them…But also, if you don’t do that in a wise way, you’re going to end up like some of these other guys.” ([20:27])
• On Critiques of Megachurches:
  “I do not believe the problem is the size of the church. The problem is the pastor did not take care of his soul.” ([23:46])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:43] – Danny’s introduction & background
• [02:46] – Honest look at the challenges of pastoral transition
• [04:10] – Key growth milestones (Saturday services, first campus launch)
• [05:23] – Vision casting errors & lessons learned
• [09:19] – Burnout and moral failure: is it inevitable?
• [10:16] – Daily routines for soul care
• [12:47] – Practical meditation on Scripture
• [17:29] – Healthy staff culture & mandatory Sabbath
• [20:27] – Motivation & philosophy behind the “Church Growth Unleashed” book
• [23:16] – Public perception of large churches and Danny’s response
• [28:53] – How the book can serve as a team resource
• [31:14] – Church Growth Unleashed podcast: intent and approach

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Takeaways for Church Leaders

• Soul care is non-negotiable: Your personal habits directly shape the health of your leadership—and your church.
• Honor the past in transitions: Vision must be built on trust and respect for legacy, not just excitement for the future.
• Model, don’t just mandate: True culture shift starts with the senior leader living out spiritual rhythms and healthy boundaries.
• Balanced ambition: Don’t shrink vision due to fear, but maintain practices to avoid burnout and finish well.
• Team health is organizational health: Embed rest and well-being into the DNA of the staff, not just the leader.
• Talk about what matters: Lead conversations about emotional, physical, relational, and spiritual health.

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Connect with Danny Anderson and Emmanuel Church

• Instagram: @dannyanderson23
• Church Website: eclife.org

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This summary captures the heart, practical wisdom, and candid tone of the conversation—empowering ministry leaders to dream big while sustaining healthy rhythms for themselves and their teams.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast, the place where church leaders get practical insights, tips and strategies for ministry growth. Today, you're stepping into something bigger than just a conversation. This podcast is part of a bold mission to help 100 churches grow by 1,000 people. Whether you're dreaming of increasing your impact in your community, empowering your team, or reaching more people with the message of Jesus, you're in the right place. We're here to bring you the stuff you wish they taught in seminary, ideas and tools you can put into action this week to see transformation in your ministry. Let's dive in.

[B]

Hey, friends. Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast. Super excited for today's conversation. Really looking forward to this because this, every time I interact with this leader, feels like a kindred spirit. You're going to love this conversation. You want to lean in carefully because we've got lessons both for your church and for you as an individual. Today we're talking with Pastor Danny Anderson. He is the lead pastor at a church that you should be following, Emmanuel Church, which was established in 1977. It's a multi site church with, I think, if I'm counting correctly, seven campuses in Indianapolis, an online campus, and a number of micro sites. It's repeatedly on one of the fastest growing church lists in the country. Danny's been lead pastors there since 2006. He also served as the high school pastor, which we all know the best people come up from. Student Ministry has got a podcast as well, so I know his audio is going to be good. Welcome to the show. So glad you're here, Danny.

[C]

Oh, thanks, Rich. Appreciate you having me. What a privilege.

[B]

Oh, come on. So it's our honor. Glad you're here. Why don't you fill in the picture, kind of tell us a little bit about you, about the church, that sort of thing.

[C]

Yeah. So I graduated from Liberty University in 99 and actually interviewed with Emanuel Church coming out of college because it was my wife's home church. And they were like, hey, who's this guy? Maybe he'll be a good high school pastor. And did the interview process, got the job and yeah, did youth ministry for five years. Loved it. And then my founding pastor decided to pursue, enter into retirement 2006 and kind of tapped me on the shoulder. Church voted me in and the wild ride of senior leadership began in 2006 and it went smoothly.

[B]

Yeah, no problems at all.

[D]

Easy, easy.

[B]

Well, actually, why don't you give us a bit of some of the milestones along the way. When you look back here we are, 20, 25, you know, coming up on 20 years. That's a long time, which is wonderful. Give us some of those milestones that kind of are, have been key when you look back over these years.

[C]

Well, I'll tell you what, the first year and a half was incredibly difficult, taking over for a founding pastor. Pastoral transitions are tough anyway, but when you, when you transition after a founding pastor who's beloved, adored by the people, it was really tough. I had some people tell me, look, I don't care. You were Andy Stanley. This would not have gone any better.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

But so it was, it was tough. I like to say that, you know, I successfully led the church from 2000 to 900 in about a year and a half. And so it was, it was very difficult, very challenging. So a big Milestone was in 2000, late 2007, 2008, people started to bring their friends. And I remember, I remember it vividly, people started to get saved. I was casting vision. I was trying to stop the bleeding, and then started to believe the message that, hey, we're here to reach people who are far from God. Like the church exists to see people who are far from Christ, you know, come to, to know him and grow in a relationship with him. And those who chose to stay under my leadership began to invite their friends and people got saved, start to get baptized. And, you know, moving into 2010, we were so packed that we had to start a Saturday night service. That was a big milestone for us. That's a huge deal launching that. We're like, man, we're out of space. What do we do?

[B]

Right?

[C]

And then moving into 2013, we, we, we launched our first campus and that was about a 500 person solution, you know, wow. We sent out 500 people. And that church is doing wonderful. They just celebrated 10 years.

[B]

That's amazing.

[C]

In 2023. And since then, we've kind of launched one campus every other year or so. And, and, and it's, it's just been, you know, an incredible journey.

[B]

Yeah, that's amazing. You know, there's, I love to kind of double click on something. You talked about casting vision. That's a unique challenge coming in after the founding. I know the stats on the guy that comes in after the founding pastor. Not great. You know, like, I don't want to discourage anybody that's listening in, but it's like lots of times those guys last about 18 months. But you were able to cast a new vision interestingly at that same kind of timeframe. Right? 18 months, two years. In, you've got to clarify what was going through your head in that moment around clarity of vision, you know, kind of, because there's a balance there of like casting a new vision, but then, but you also don't want to trample on the past and all that. You want to build on where we get. What would, how, how did you cast a vision in that season and how did that impact the church?

[C]

Well, I, I definitely was naive and some of that played to my advantage and that hurt me. I could have done a much better job honoring the past. And if there's anybody out there listening and thinking about transitioning or in a transition, it's very important for the person coming in behind the pastor, especially the founding pastor, just to honor, honor the past, honor where you've been. I kind of jumped past that and I was so excited. I was eager. I was 26 years old and I wanted to talk about the future. I wanted to talk about how we are going to do things differently to reach people who are far from God. And so I started canceling programs. I changed the music. I did all these things, things that I had heard others did to reach the next generation. And that, that was fairly easy to talk about. We did a series about it, I talked about it. But what I didn't understand because I was so young is that people were not ready to receive that vision yet. Oh, that's good. Still grieving the loss of their founding pastor. Still not sure whether or not they should buy into my leadership. I didn't understand the law of buy in, you know, by John Maxwell. And I just got, I went right into vision. And so we paid the price for that. It, it really hurt us. But in the long run, those who did choose to stay bought into that vision. But you know, the, the, I guess the question you asked me was how did I maybe formulate that vision? Yeah, you know, for, for me, for me it was just the New Testament, just reading like, who did Jesus spend time with? What was his heart? Why did he come? You know, I was radically saved in high school as a 17 year old kid. I was not a church kid. My life was totally revolutionized. Did a 180. So when I put my faith in Christ, it was because I knew he forgave me. I knew he was real. I didn't really care about church. I just love Jesus, you know, and I just, I wanted to, I want people to experience that. And so my vision was, hey, let's be a church that reaches people who really need hope, they really need Meaning they need purpose, they need forgiveness, they need grace. All these wonderful things that I had received, and that only made sense to me, like, why. Why else would we do church? Right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, but it's interesting, right? Like, I think a lot of times, I know as a person that sat in that kind of executive pastor, second chair. I know a part of what I've tried to do over the years is encourage the lead pastors I've served for to continue to clarify the vision. And a lot of it, like, that's a thing that a lead pastor can't outsource. We can't be, like, we can't pull 25 people in a room and goes, hey, so why do we think we should exist? Like, no, no. Like, you've. You got to feel it in your bones. Like, it's like, hey, this is. I'm willing to drive the bus over the cliff over this issue. And that ultimately is what gathers people.

[D]

And.

[B]

And, yeah, that's. That's good. Okay, so pivoting in a slightly different direction. So you're coming up, you know, two decades, almost two decades, as in this lead role. That's amazing. Incredible. Congratulations on that. You know, we often see that, you know, churches of a certain size, one of the kind of common characteristics is you've got leaders that are in their second, third decade there. That that's normal. It is not typical that it, like, happens overnight. It takes time. But one of the downsides, the negative kind of tragic realities is many parents experience. Parents, pastors experience either burnout or moral failure amidst the kind of growth that your church has seen. You know, can we explore that a little bit? Talk about kind of your own personal reflections on how do you navigate that? How do you kind of keep your soul connected to Jesus in the midst of that?

[C]

That's a great question. You know, one of. One of the things that really broke my heart several years ago, and I think many pastors were brokenhearted overseeing some of their heroes of the faith. The church leaders that they followed for years looked up to, gone to their conferences. You know, we've all watched some of these guys kind of shipwreck their. Their church for, you know, moral reasons, power struggles. And, you know, I. I'm watching this happen as everyone else is, and I'm like, man, is it inevitable that this is going to happen to me?

[D]

Right.

[C]

You know, because I'm. I'm on the same path these guys are on. I'm trying to grow the church. Things are happening. We're launching campuses, campuses you know, is it inevitable that I'm going to have an affair or do something stupid with money or abuse power? And I got to thinking about that and I was like, no, that's not inevitable.

[D]

Good.

[C]

And the reason why it's not inevitable for me or for any pastor out there is that if you do the proper work on your soul, which is the most important thing that we can do. You know, the Proverbs 4, 23 says, Guard your heart above all else because out of it flow the issues of life. Right? Like everything we do, our leadership, our sermons, the way we lead, our team, it all comes from our heart.

[D]

Right?

[C]

So the most important, I'm convinced the most important, important job of a leader is to take care of their soul. Because if my soul is healthy and it's aligned with Jesus and it's surrendered to his will, like, then I can lead well and I won't shipwreck my faith and I won't fall into temptation. I'm not talking about perfection. Nobody's going to be perfect. I'm talking about patterns of sin that will destroy your church, destroy your ministry, and disqualify you from the 100%. And so I spent a ton of time, rich, working on myself. I did it again this morning. I wake up every morning at 5:30. I have a whole routine I go through and it's, it's, it involves the scriptures, surrender, prayer, confession, journaling, reading other books. And, and I do that not because I'm a pastor, because I want, but because I want to take care of my soul. I want to have a healthy soul that's good. And so I have practices and rhythms that I keep to make sure that I maintain that in the midst of the chaos of leading our church, which there's never a dull moment as, you know, leading a church, it's, it's crazy. But yes. So yeah, I'm, I'm hyper focused on that.

[B]

Yeah, I'd love to talk a little bit more about that kind of drill in because one of the, I appreciate the way you framed that because one of the realities of it is like all the people who, that you're thinking of that have shipwrecked their ministries, shipwrecked their lives, they all would have said that. They would have said no, I've got practices, I've got, you know, and that's the sad reality here, right? And then there is this cynicism. I think for me, one of the most corrosive parts of this is there's a cynicism against large churches. And to me, that. That's like. That's like, gets to, you know, effectiveness of the gospel kind of stuff. Then we're like, well, we should just keep all our churches small. And that's the answer. But that isn't the answer. We need to be able to lead large churches that are having huge impacts on our community and keep our soul healthy at the same time. So is there one of those practices that maybe it's like, hey, I've never heard people talk about this, or, like, it seems like a different thing. Or like, this is particularly. Has been particularly effective for me or helpful for me, or as I've shared with other pastors, they've resonated, been like, oh, that's. That's different. I appreciate that. That's really helpful for me.

[C]

Yeah. You know, I think the most effective thing that I have practiced or put into my life in terms of a discipline that cares for the soul is. And this has been talked about, so it's not. It's not fresh. It's just a matter of are we doing it? You know, I hear. I hear pastors say this all the time. You know, I have practices. Okay, but are you really doing it? And so here's. Here'. Here's how I would explain it. I would explain it. It's the practice of meditation. And I don't mean the Eastern type of meditation. Emptying yourself and emptying your mind. I'm talking about filling your mind with scripture to the point where, like in Psalm 1, it says that. That with that, the man of God meditates on it day and night. In Joshua 1:8, you know, we meditate upon your law day and night. Is that really true about us? Because here's how, you know, Dallas Willard and many others have explained the way the soul is wired. And I want to go too deep here, but we do have to kind of go deep a little bit. Like, the mind controls predominant for the most part, how we feel like we think and then we feel. And then the will or the place of action at the center of our soul is dependent upon how we're feeling and how we're thinking. So if I want to make proper choices, godly choices, live a righteous life, or treat my staff well, or have patience with my assistant or whatever, then I have to be thinking correctly. My mind has got to be in the right place. Which is why the apostle Paul says, you know, set your mind on things above, not on things on earth. Right. That we're transformed by the renewing of our mind. We can We've preached sermons like that. Right, but do we live that way? Where's our mind?

[D]

Right.

[C]

Every single day. Like not just, not just at certain times where we're preparing a sermon or, or something, but like throughout the day. Are we actually thinking scripture? Because if we are, then that's going to be shaping the way we feel and then the way we feel is going to shape the way we act. And so I teach that, I try to live that out and that's how, that's the primary practice of, of tending for my soul. So if I want my soul to be in a good, good spot, I got to make sure my mind is in a good spot.

[B]

Yeah, that's good. I like, I like even how you frame that there around. I've got to be thinking scripture and that's even a good benchmark for me. That got me thinking, okay, so when I go to solve a problem, something that comes up today is the first thing that comes to mind. Scripture or is the first thing comes to mind some book I read or some podcast I listened to, is it, you know, and that's, I'm not saying that there's not good things to come from podcasts obviously, but, you know, but, but what is the kind of the knee jerk reaction of my mind? Is it my brought back to the teaching of Jesus? Ultimately that's good. I really like.

[C]

So let me push in a little bit more on that one thought. You know, Dallas Willard teaches this and if your listeners haven't dove in or to Dallas's stuff, I would strongly encourage them to do so. Renovation of the heart, divine conspiracy, spirit of the disciplines, the great omission, all fantastic stuff. But what he actually teaches about scripture, scripture memorization and the power of it is that as we're meditating on scripture through the day, we actually interpret, interpret life through the lens of the scripture.

[D]

That's good.

[C]

So, so it's like the scriptures are like the lens that we're looking through as we're leading our team or we're talking with our spouse. And so we're interpreting the events of life through scripture. And if we're doing that, then we're actually thinking the thoughts of Jesus. And you know, as Dallas has said in his books, that spiritual maturity is being able to act the way Jesus would act if he were in your place. Right. So if I want to do that, I have to think the way Jesus think I want to live the way he lived. And that I one idea has changed my leadership, has changed my life.

[D]

Yeah, that's so good.

[B]

So good.

[D]

Well, then extending that out kind of beyond you to your team. I've had a little bit of interaction with some of the Emanuel team. And, you know, there, if I can just kind of say the thing that some people are thinking is oftentimes, you know, the teams in large churches, it's like, man, they're burnt out, they're struggling. And it's like, that's fine for the lead person. They got it all sorted out. But, like, the team is in a bad spot. But that hasn't been my impression of the Emanuel team. It's like, well, these people are healthy and they seem to be leaning in. And so how have you been able to navigate the challenges of both scaling? Because you seem like an ambitious church. It seems like, hey, we want to take some ground, but at the same time, balance out health of your staff.

[C]

Yeah. So I have to live it out that everything starts with the senior leader. Right. So I talk about this stuff at staff meeting. I challenge my team to do this stuff. We incorporate the Sabbath very aggressively here at the church. So nobody's allowed to work on Friday. And that is a very. That's huge. Like, hey, this. That communicates that your soul is more important to me and to God than getting results at this church. You will. You are not allowed to work on Friday. Like, it is a rule unless somebody has died or something, you know?

[D]

Right, right.

[C]

So, you know, people know I'm serious about it.

[D]

It.

[C]

And they know that I care more about their soul than I do about the work that's actually happening now. That does not mean we don't care about the work that's happening around here. We want to launch one campus a year for the next 12 years. We're very ambitious. So I think it's a. It's this balance. Like, what are you talking about in staff meeting? And what does your staff see from you? Like, if my staff sees me walking around the office and I'm barking out orders and I'm. They could see my face is frustrated or I'm upset. You know, what is that saying? Like, there's some pastors that leave their church that way.

[D]

Yeah, it's true.

[C]

Their church through anger.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And their face. And everyone's like, oh, well, look at his face. He's upset. What's pastor like? That is not the way Jesus led. You know, so everyone's really watching my tone of voice. They're watching my facial expression. Is he upset? You know, is he calm? Is he poised? And so that stuff all goes back to My personal disciplines of meditation and quiet time and prayer and weekly Sabbath. And. And so it starts with me. And you have to push that down, those values down into your staff and give them the space to practice those things that you're telling them to practice.

[D]

Right. And there's a key there around. You know, when I've been around, healthy leaders have worked with healthy leaders. There's something about you talking about it that then creates and living it out. And like. Like you're saying even simple things, as crazy as it sounds like, hey, we're not going to work on one day a week. Friday's a Sabbath day. Like, even something as simple as that, talking about it enough so that your team will hold you accountable. Like, they'll come back if you talk about that enough, they're going to be like, well, wait a second, Danny, like you said, we're not supposed to work Fridays, but why is it that you keep sending me the slides Friday morning at 9:30 in the morning to be done for the weekend? I can't do what you want me to do. And so. Yeah, that's good. I love that. So, so good. Well, I'd love to pivot in another direction. So you've got a book that came out last year, and you've got a podcast by the same name, Church Growth how to Grow youw Church Without Losing your Soul. We've obviously been talking about some of these issues today, but this is a huge task, putting together a book. You know, tell us kind of why. Why did you drive towards that? What. What are you hoping to get out of this? Who are you thinking about as you pulled this book together?

[C]

Yeah, I'm thinking about the. The. The pastor who has the passion to see lost people enter the kingdom. But today they're being told that, you know, big churches are bad and you didn't want to grow your church. And I'm like, man, I almost fell prey to that rich. Like, I actually picked up one of those books that had that message in it. I'm like, man, maybe we should stay small. Maybe we should just be content with what we have and the people that we have. And like, I felt guilty. About what? About my ambition. And then I'm like, looking at the Apostle Paul and the gospel, and he's like, man, let's go reach the world. And he's ambitious to preach and plant churches where no one's heard the gospel. And. And I'm like, man, this. God's heart is to reach lost people. Lots of them, millions of them. And so I Wrote this book to help pastors strike the balance of. Okay, I know. I want to reach people, people. I want to fan that flame. Right? Yes. That is God's heart. For God so loved the world, he gave his one and only son. Right. But also, on the other hand, if you don't do that in a wise way, you're going to end up like some of these other guys. And you're not just going to lose your church, you're going to lose your family. You could lose your health, your physical health, because you overdo it and you over. You become a workaholic. And. And so there is a balance. And I feel like I haven't always gotten that right, but, man, I sure have tried because I want to make it to the end, Rich. I'm 47. I want to go all the way to the end, hand this church off to somebody else in a healthy way and still have a family and a healthy heart and set this church up to reach even the next generation. So I'm passionate about helping pastors to find that path.

[D]

Well, I know, I love that you said church growth right in the title, because as a fellow author with a book with the, with the title, with Church Growth in the title, that's like, that's like a dangerous decision in some circles, right? They're like, what your church growth. Isn't that like guys in the 80s that got like tapes and they're, you know, they're like old dodgy, you know, kind of a little bit like, you know, slick salesman kind of thing. So I love that you did that. I love. I love that you did that. I love your heart. Both to balance these issues around, hey, we want to reach people. I agree with you. I think there is this dangerous. It sounds good. It sounds like even, like noble to be like, well, we should keep small. We should, you know, we should play small. And like, I'm only going to reach the people on my street, and we're going to stay under a couple hundred people. And that's like what God has called us to. Why do you think that is such a pervasive idea? Why. Why has that become such a pervasive idea in the church?

[C]

Well, I think. I think part of it is. It's a great question, but I think. I think a big part of it is that when people see these mega church pastors screw up, whether it is because some sexual sin or they have abused power or something, right. They immediately make the connection that, see, the problem is not his. The problem is not his soul. The Problem is that the church was too big.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And so churches are not designed to be that big.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And so that. And I just don't believe that. I do not believe the problem is the size of the church. The problem is the pastor did not take care of his soul.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

[C]

I mean, think about Billy Graham. Rich. I know Billy Graham wasn't a pastor, but that guy took care of his soul.

[D]

Right, Right.

[C]

When you read his stuff, when you read his books, his, his. He was so diligent to watch over his heart with meditation and his scripture description, he never missed a time with God. He never missed time with God. So my dedication is I never miss my time with God. I don't say that to brag because that would be ridiculous. That's nothing to brag about. No, I do that because I need it to keep my heart humble and aligned with God's will. So, you know, I don't believe the problem is the size of the church. I believe Jesus wants the whole world to be saved.

[D]

Right.

[C]

So. And I'm part of that solution. So are you.

[D]

Right.

[C]

So that means we got, we got to grow our churches.

[D]

Yeah. And there's way more people in Indianapolis in your backyard who don't attend church that do. And we've got to do what we can to get out in front of them and reach those people. I've never said this publicly, but I'm going to say it here because I'd love to get your reaction to it. Years ago, 10 years ago, I was talking to a lead pastor of a fairly large church, one name brand church, and they said, you know, we were talking about this exact issue, growing church, and why do so many people fail and all of that. And this individual said, you know, I think the problem is, or one of the problems is a church, and this is going to sound crazy if you're leading a church of a couple hundred people. What I'm about to say, you're going to say, that is nuts. But it resonates with me. I actually was like, I think there's some truth to this. They said, you know, one of the problems is you get to a church of four or five thousand people and as the pastor, there's not enough challenge. And I was like, what? And I leaned in and I said, what are you talking about? And they're like, well, at the end of the day, like, I. If I'm doing my job right, and I've been all my people to do, to do the work and I've built Amazing teams. And I've got a lot of people around me and I. And they're, they're making it happen. My core job, sure, is to preach. I'm going to get up every week, I'm going to do, you know, maybe 30 times, I'm going to preach and sure, we're going to cast vision.

[B]

If I'm not.

[D]

If I don't watch, I can create. I can build an empire, essentially, is what this person was saying, where I'm actually not being. Where I can kind of build this thing around me. And I was like, oh, that's an interesting idea. Because that there's. But I think there's something there. It's like these people can. If you don't have the right rhythms in your life, stuff starts to get into your schedule. You start doing stuff that you shouldn't be doing. You start thinking about things you shouldn't be thinking about. You get distracted from the, you know, because the thing is running, because the thing is systemized. What do you think about that react nuts thing, you know, crazy idea. What do you think?

[C]

You know, that's. I have not heard that. That is a very interesting. I'm processing that as you say that, like, huh. Our church is like, we reach about 8,000 people on a weekend now. And I'm thinking, holy.

[D]

You're not sitting around looking for stuff to do.

[C]

No, I have. I'm like, wow, I have to say no to stuff because I'm meeting with, you know, donors and I'm. I'm meeting with my team and on my schedule, my assistant keeps telling me, hey, I think we've, we've committed to too much.

[D]

Right? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

So I added, that does not resonate with me. I guess if my, if my goal was to, to kind of build something so that I could maybe have some free time in golf, I could see that being a problem. But I don't golf and I like to be busy.

[D]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. Yeah. I thought it was an interesting idea. I thought the part that resonated with me was, I think as the church grows, as we, you know, when you're a church of a thousand, a church of 2,000, 5,000, 10,000, each of those phases demand something different. And your leadership has to change and these kind of things. Managing our own soul care. Although there are some foundational things like you say, stay committed, stay in the word. What you're doing at 5:30 in the morning, you have to keep thinking about these at every level. What does it look like how do I. How do I massage and change? I'm sure you've seen over time that your process has changed, what you've done, your rhythms have changed because, you know, just things look different. So that's interesting.

[C]

And my kids have gotten older too, so that really helps, right?

[D]

That does open up time for sure. Talk to me about on the book the Church Growth Unleashed. We're going to put a link in the show notes where people can pick up this. This actually struck me as the kind of thing that a team could read together. It was like, hey, this could be a good framing for us. I talked about earlier this idea of like, you need to talk about these things so that your team kind of like mirrors back to me, this was like one of these, like, hey, let's have Danny talk to us about these things through this book. And then that will kind of create a conversation for us where we can get outside of it and look at it and say, what do we think about that? How are we doing? Can you picture that? What could this look like if I, if I went through this with my team?

[C]

Yeah, I think it's a, it would be a great discussion starter. I don't think pastors talk about this stuff. Like, I have a whole chapter in there on friendship. I don't think pastors talk about that. They don't talk about their friends because it's really hard for a pastor to have friends. It's really hard for staff members to have friends.

[D]

Right?

[C]

Like, how do you have friends? Like, all the people in your life go to your church. Like, how does that work? How do you strike that balance? I have a whole chapter in there on your physical health and how your physical health affects your, your, your ability to, to serve and lead and do your job. Like, the pastors don't talk about that stuff. Listen, most pastors are out shape and overweight. So why would you, why would you talk about being in healthy when you're not healthy? So this is a book that really puts its finger on like some of the key issues that affect leadership and having a healthy balance between being really good at your job but also being super healthy in your. Like, I have a whole chapter on family. How do you balance the tensions of, like, I know some churches and staffs, they're so out of balance. Oh, my gosh. I was, I heard about a church the other day that did six services on Christmas Eve.

[D]

Right?

[C]

Six. And look, I'm all about reaching lost people. I think it's awesome. But six services on Christmas Eve, like And they're, like, rejoicing and praising God and hey, I'm sure a lot of people got saved. I'm sure it was awesome. But I'm thinking about. Guess who I'm thinking about about Rich.

[D]

Yeah, the families. They're staff.

[C]

They're staff. You know, they just had services on Saturday, on Sunday, and then you turn around and do six Christmas Eve server. Anyway, I'm not dogging the church. I mean, I love people, but. But, man, if they don't get that balance worked out, their staff will get burned out.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And then they'll resent the work, you know, and so, you know, it's really. It's really a book about, you know, helping people talk about the. The important things that need to be discussed and work through to have a healthy balance of ministry in life.

[D]

Yeah, it's so good. Well, like I say, friends, we've got a link to the show notes in. In the show notes. You can also pick it up in Amazon and I'm sure where other books are sold, that sort of thing. We want to point people to that. I don't want to miss an opportunity to talk about the podcast as well. I had an honor of being on.

[C]

Yes, you did. Thank you for that.

[B]

A little bit about now, tell us.

[D]

A little bit about the podcast. I will put a link to that as well. We want people to check that out. I think it would be a great kind of companion to what we're doing here at Seminary, for sure.

[C]

Yeah. So, I mean, that Church Growth Unleashed is a podcast to help pastors, church leaders and ministry leaders. I mean, I had the host of the Unseminary podcast on there last week. So that's the quality.

[D]

No, no, no, listen.

[C]

That's the quality of people I try to have on there. And we just. Hey, we just talk about this stuff. We talk about everything that, that pastors go through, ministry leaders go through in an authentic way. Like, I'm an open book. Like, I talk about everything because I want pastors to have a place where they could be like, man, this guy gets me. Or I. I was wondering about that. Or no one's ever talked about that, but before. Or I needed somebody to say that because that's what I needed as a young pastor. Like, I need help. And so that's basically. It's basically. It's basically the same heart as your podcast just to help pastors help ministry leaders to be effective as possible.

[D]

Good. I'd love. Like I say, we'll put. We'll put links to the show notes down there and do the podcast, the books and all that stuff. Danny, this has been super encouraging conversation today. Love what you're doing. Love what Emanuel's up to. I love the balance that you, you know, have that you're striking. You know, Emanuel is. I love a church that's aggressive for the gospel, that's like, hey, we want to do stuff to reach people. And you can see that in the way you guys act, which is great. But then at the same time, you're raising all these values and us, you know, frankly, some of these deeper questions that it can be easy to just not think about. And so I just want to honor you for doing that. I think it's incredible. So, so great to connect today.

[C]

Well, thank you, Rich. You're doing a great job. Love everything you do. Love your books. They've had a huge impact on my life. Keep writing them. Keep. Keep popping into us. I'm not. I know your audience is. It gets tremendous value from this podcast, and so do I. So thanks for what you do.

[D]

Where do we want to send people online to connect with you or to connect with the church just as we wrap up today?

[C]

Yeah. So on Instagram, it's at Danny Anderson, 23. And that's my Instagram handle. And then the. The church website is ec life.org eclife.org yeah.

[D]

Thanks so much, Danny. Appreciate you being here today.

[C]

Hey, thanks, Rich. God bless.

[A]

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Unseminary Podcast. If you found today's conversation helpful, I'd share it with a friend. In ministry. It's a simple way to spark new ideas and grow together. Also, don't Forget to visit unseminary.com to sign up for our email list. You'll get exclusive resources and practical tools delivered straight to your inbox to help you lead your church more effectively. Most importantly, take what you learned today and put it into action this week. Ministry impact starts with small, intentional steps. See you next time.