Building Leaders for the Next Generation: Insights on Developing Residency Programs with Pat Gillen

Summary

Podcast Summary: Building Leaders for the Next Generation – Insights on Developing Residency Programs with Pat Gillen

Podcast: unSeminary Podcast
Host: Rich Birch
Guest: Pat Gillen, Executive Pastor of Families and Fountain Inn Teaching Pastor, First Baptist Simpsonville Upstate Church
Date: December 5, 2024
Episode Theme: Practical strategies and real-world insights for developing effective church residency programs to train the next generation of ministry leaders.

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Overview

This episode of the unSeminary Podcast dives deep into the practical “stuff you wish they taught in seminary” by analyzing how First Baptist Simpsonville Upstate Church is building a robust residency program for future ministry leaders. Rich Birch is joined by Pat Gillen, who shares the church’s unique approach to leadership development, the reasoning behind their hands-on model, and the lessons they’ve learned in creating a pipeline for young leaders. The conversation is packed with actionable tips, candid reflections on challenges, and a passionate call to invest in next-generation leadership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Church Context and Multi-site Distinctives

• Setting the Scene ([03:32])
  • Upstate Church is one of the fastest growing churches in the U.S., now with eight campuses (and voting on a ninth).
  • Unique model: All campuses feature live, in-person teaching pastors—no video venues, setting them apart from most large multi-site churches.
  • Their strategy focuses on expanding into more local communities to “build out, not up” and multiply ministry touchpoints.

Quote:
“We say instead of building up, we’re trying to build out.” — Pat Gillen [08:06]

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The Leadership Development Challenge

• The Need for Leaders ([08:35])
  • Rapid growth and a multi-campus model create a constant demand for prepared leaders, particularly campus pastors, worship leaders, and kids coordinators.
  • Personal pain point for Pat: Early years in ministry lacked practical, on-the-job mentorship despite good seminary training.

Quote:
“We wanted to create a scenario where we could develop leaders, help them walk them through that process, help them discover their calling... not just a warm body.” — Pat Gillen [10:44]

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Defining the Residency Program

• Program Structure ([11:44])
  • Two-year, post-college residency aimed at young adults (22–24).
  • Residents are encouraged to pursue seminary or other training concurrent with the residency.
  • Functions like an extended “job interview.” The goal: hire the best fits or send strong leaders out to other churches in the region.

Quote:
“It’s two years post-college… it’s really a process. College graduates spend two years with us… whether it’s a two-year job interview… or we actually get to send them out.” — Pat Gillen [11:44]

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Recruitment and Internal Leadership Pipeline

• Where Residents Come From ([12:57])
  • Not located near major colleges/seminaries, so have developed an “in-house” pipeline.
  • Focused on identifying and mentoring potential leaders from high school onward.
  • Most residents already have history with the church before entering the program.

Quote:
“We’re actually trying to develop our leaders here. When they’re in high school, we’re trying to pour into them, disciple them, nurture that calling…” — Pat Gillen [13:19]

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Culture, Expectations, and Calling

• Nature of the Program ([15:39])
  • No guaranteed job at the end—transparency from the start.
  • Significant focus is helping residents discern and clarify their vocational calling, acknowledging that many in Gen Z are still forming their sense of direction.
  • Residents are allowed and encouraged to try multiple ministry roles during their time.

Quote:
“A lot of Gen Z is coming out of college and going, ‘I don’t know yet…’ So part of what we’re trying to do is say, ‘Okay, let’s investigate that.’” — Pat Gillen [16:35]

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Internal Buy-In and Staff Involvement

• Engaging the Broader Team ([18:26])
  • It can be challenging for busy staff to engage deeply in leader development.
  • Residents are embedded directly within ministries, with actual staff as their “boss”/mentor.
  • The expectation is real work and real development, not just classic intern busywork.

Quote:
“We get somebody who’s… not an intern or anything like that. They’re putting in, you know, 30 hours a week with us.” — Pat Gillen [20:01]

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Real-World Experience and Equipping

• Practical Ministry Training ([21:34])
  • Equipping sessions led by top staff members on topics like counseling, funerals, ministry budgeting, and pastoral care.
  • Two-year “curriculum” ensures comprehensive exposure regardless of entry point.
  • Emphasis on safe, real-world practice under supervision, particularly for high-stakes pastoral moments.

Quote:
“We bring some of the best leaders on our church staff to actually adopt one of those times… pour out their expertise on counseling or how to handle a funeral, a wedding… deal with somebody who’s struggling.” — Pat Gillen [21:39]

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Candid Lessons, “Dirty Secrets,” and Avoiding Pitfalls

• Mistaken Approaches ([24:05])
  • Warning to churches: Don’t view residency as “free labor.” The real investment is heavy in staff time and intentional mentorship.
  • Generational differences: Residents must learn to be proactive; the residency is designed to cultivate initiative.

Quote:
“Churches see what we do, and they think, ‘Oh, I get free labor’… But ultimately, you’re multiplying yourself… a lot of people overlook that.” — Pat Gillen [24:05]

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Financial and Logistical Model

• Time and Money Commitment ([26:01], [27:39])
  • Residents function like part-time employees (20–25 hours/week).
  • Most have dual roles across ministries.
  • The church invests ~$15,000/year per resident, providing seminary scholarships and affordable housing; residents fundraise the balance (an intentional development opportunity).
  • Staff are expected to invest significant, regular time with each resident.

Quote:
“If we have it at our church, you can do it… communications, senior adults, kids—it really helps us having them around.” — Pat Gillen [27:26]

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Looking Ahead: Scaling Across Campuses

• Future Questions and Expansion ([29:58])
  • As campuses extend farther geographically, Pat is thinking about how to keep residency cohorts connected and aligned.
  • Plans to expand resident numbers, refine structure, and learn from other multi-site models.

Quote:
“The future is exciting and scary… If we get two and three hours away, how do we stay connected? How do we set that up?” — Pat Gillen [29:58]

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Final Challenges for Churches

• Investing in Youth and the Pipeline ([31:18])
  • The strongest encouragement: Start developing leaders now, within your own context and age groups.
  • Cautions that churches closing their doors are almost always those who failed to prioritize the next generation.

Quote:
“My challenge would just be that… you have what you need in front of you. The churches that are struggling… did not prioritize the next generation, letting them lead.” — Pat Gillen [31:25]

• Long-term Thinking Pays Off ([32:04])
  • Residents aren’t a quick fix—they won’t solve your current problem, but strategic consistency develops an invaluable leadership pipeline for the future.

Quote:
“Residents aren’t going to solve… your January, February problems… but two years from now, three years from now… you’re going to have this pipeline.” — Rich Birch [32:22]

• Investment vs. Hiring Search Firms ([32:59])
  • The money churches spend on search firms could often be better spent developing leaders internally.

Quote:
“If you think about what that fee generally costs, and you invest that in the next generation instead, you can develop those same leaders.” — Pat Gillen [33:13]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (by Timestamp)

• [08:06] “We say instead of building up, we’re trying to build out.” — Pat Gillen
• [11:44] “It’s two years post-college… it’s really a process. College graduates spend two years with us…” — Pat Gillen
• [13:19] “We’re actually trying to develop our leaders here. When they’re in high school, we’re trying to pour into them…” — Pat Gillen
• [16:35] “A lot of Gen Z is coming out of college and going, ‘I don’t know yet…’ So part of what we’re trying to do is say, ‘Okay, let’s investigate that.’” — Pat Gillen
• [20:01] “They’re putting in, you know, 30 hours a week with us.” — Pat Gillen
• [21:39] “We bring some of the best leaders on our church staff to actually adopt… their expertise…” — Pat Gillen
• [24:05] “Churches see what we do, and they think, ‘Oh, I get free labor’… But ultimately, you’re multiplying yourself…” — Pat Gillen
• [29:58] “The future is exciting and scary… if we get two and three hours away, how do we stay connected?” — Pat Gillen
• [31:25] “My challenge would just be that… you have what you need in front of you…” — Pat Gillen
• [32:22] “Residents aren’t going to solve your January, February problems… but two years from now, you’re going to have this pipeline.” — Rich Birch
• [33:13] “If you think about what that fee generally costs, and you invest that in the next generation… you can develop those same leaders.” — Pat Gillen

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:32] Upstate Church’s Multi-site Model & Why Live Teaching Matters
• [08:35] The Leadership Bottleneck Problem
• [10:44] Why Residency? The Personal Backstory and Mission
• [11:44] How the Residency Program Works (Structure, Duration)
• [13:19] Internal Leadership Pipeline from High School
• [15:39] Transparency about Job Outcomes and Calling
• [18:26] Shifting Team Culture Toward Developing Leaders
• [21:34] Practical Equipping and Safe Real-World Experience
• [24:05] Mistaken Views & Pitfalls in Running Residency Programs
• [26:01] Time Commitment and Financial Model
• [29:58] Future Growth and Geographic Coordination Challenges
• [31:18] Final Challenges: Invest in Youth Now

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Takeaways for Church Leaders

• Invest strategically in the next generation—don’t wait for a leadership crisis.
• Develop an internal pipeline starting from youth, not just relying on outside hiring.
• Residency is a long-term play: mentorship and practical exposure matter far more than free labor.
• Be prepared for a significant, ongoing investment of staff time and organizational resources.
• Leverage the whole staff’s expertise for resident development—not just a single mentor.
• Consider the financial trade-offs—developing leaders may cost less and add more value than regularly hiring through search firms.

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For more information or to connect, visit upstatechurch.org.

Transcript

[A]

Hey friends. Rich here from the Unseminary podcast. You know we often talk about churches not doing well, but maybe your church is doing really well right now and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep the momentum going. It could be the time to start a new location. Maybe you've hesitated in the past few years, but now, now is the time for you to step out in faith again and launch your next location. That's why I partnered with Portable Church Industries for a new resource called Launch a new location in 150 days or less. Portable Church has assembled a bunch of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum in a new location by sending part of your congregation back to their neighborhood and on mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step by step plan to launch your next or new location and a five minute readiness tool that will help you know if your church is ready to go. Listen, I really want you to drop by portablechurch.com rich that's portablechurch.com rich to get this free resource Launch a new location in 150 days or less. Listen, if your church is growing, now is the time for you to step out and launch a new location. You know I'm passionate about this. So I want you to drop by portablechurch.com rich today to pick up this brand new resource. Launch a new location in 150 days or less again, one last time. That's portablechurch.com rich today.

[B]

Are you looking for practical ministry help to inform and inspire your leadership? Do you have a sinking feeling that your ministry training didn't prepare you for the real world? Hey, you're not alone. Join thousands of other leaders in pursuit of stuff you wish they taught in seminary. Welcome to the Unseminary podcast presented by CDF Capital helping churches grow. Visit [e-mail] unseminary.

[A]

Hey friends. Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast. Wow. I'm so excited for today's conversation. Really looking forward to this because two reasons. One, it's another leader from a church that we had on a few months ago and it's always good to keep leaning in and learning from churches that are prevailing, making a difference. And then the second, what we're talking about today is one of those areas that I know all of our churches are wrestling with. We're thinking about how do we do what we're going to talk about today? So you're going to be rewarded by leaning in today and learning. Super excited to have Pat Gillen with us. He is from First Baptist Simpsonville Upstate Church A fantastic church located in South Carolina. They're one of the fastest growing churches in the country with I believe eight or nine campuses if I'm counting correctly. They offer services in Spanish and Portuguese in addition to English. Bronx. Brian is the executive pastor of Operations. Sorry, Brian is executive pastor Operations who we had on in the spring. Pat is the executive pastor of families and the Fountain Inn teaching pastor and has established a residency program in the church. So really excited, excited to have Pat with us today. Welcome. So glad you're here.

[C]

Yeah, so glad to be here with you today.

[A]

Yeah, it was great having Brian on back in the spring and excited to have you here today. Why don't you fill up the picture a little bit?

[C]

Yeah, I.

[A]

When people say like good things about other people they work with, that's positive.

[C]

So yeah, nobody doesn't like Brian.

[A]

He's ah, that's fun. Well, why don't you kind of fill out the picture there a little bit. Maybe for people that didn't catch our episode in the spring or how, you know, people say, oh, tell me about the church. What's kind of describe it to us? Tell us about it.

[C]

Sure. We're kind of an established church that probably 20 years ago got into multi site and didn't really fully get into the model we're in until about eight years ago where we started replicating ourselves in other places instead of just having sort of a daughter campus, you know, that was somewhere else. And so it's been a part of our DNA, maybe even in the background for quite a while. But in the past eight years, truly God's used it in a special way. So you said eight or nine campuses. That's actually pretty accurate. We're at eight and voting on a ninth right now trying.

[A]

Oh great.

[C]

So we're in that same kind of limbo stage where we're about to hit nine locations. But it's such an exciting thing for us because what's unique about us is we do live teaching at each campus. So we don't do a video venue or anything like that. We're not against it, we don't think it's bad. But especially in our area, there are a lot of other churches that are doing that. So kind of what helps us stand apart and be unique is having campuses with live teachers. And so that's kind of created even our conversation today. What's brought us to that is it's almost created a vacuum of, of need for leaders that can step up that are a part of our vision and understand it and kind of step into those spots. So that's been an exciting thing for us as we've grown from when I got here we had three campuses. Two of those, like I said, were almost really like daughter churches. They kind of did their own thing and then we covered the bill if they didn't cover everything. And now those campuses have been reformed. One spun off as really truly a mission or daughter church in that way. The other one was our first upstate church campus, our Harrison Bridge campus. And then since then we've added so many more and so it's such a great thing to be a part of communities here in the upstate and that's really our goal and our mission is to reach the upstate of South Carolina for the kingdom to connect people to Jesus here. So it's been awesome.

[A]

That's so good. Well, I, you know, just to kind of put this conversation in context for folks that are listening in that may not know, but we're still at a place where over 50% of multi site churches don't get beyond three locations. So your church is rare air. I know you know that is rare error in the fact that you're in eight, looking at nine. You know we're down into single digit percentage of multi site churches in the country that have that many locations, which is amazing. But then even more notable like you said on the teaching front, so the shorthand we say all the time, which is statistically true, but you got to have somebody that bucks the statistics is the larger the church and the more campuses they have, the more likely they are to use video content. So the fact that you are continuing on with, you know, in person teaching at all these locations does put you in, in a rarer part of why I think it's a great conversation to have today maybe before we get into specifically about residency programs which we want to kind of dive into. How are you training those people? Talk to me through that kind of campus pastor teaching. Campus pastor, teaching pastor role. Why is that? You know, you kind of gave us the quick answer. Oh, other churches are doing video. But talk us through that a little bit more because it's a huge investment to say like hey, we're going to try to keep, you know, growing people and making that happen. Why are you doing that? What are you learning on that front? Why do you think continue to think that's the best move for the church?

[C]

I think it, a lot of that comes from our lead pastor and his humility. And this is not, not in any way to say that a pastor would be prideful on video. But his humility and letting other people lead and have that pulpit in those locations is such a. A great leadership tool for him. I think part of the way we've looked at it is like we can be more effective if we know the people and we're face to face with the people if we have that opportunity. So most of our campuses, we operate in kind of a huddle, model, hub model, where within our original campus or original location, there are four churches or four other campuses rather, that are within probably 12 to 15 minutes of that. So we're kind of hitting the extension of where people, you know, may still feel like it's. It's possible to drive here, but they would love one more in their community. So it's also a little unique because one of our campuses is 3.1 miles away. So it just feels like, wow, yeah, that's crazy idea. But it's something that really birthed out of our pastor. If we're going to reach the upstate, then we need to have campuses that are in these communities that are trying to reach those communities for the kingdom. And so it's really less about us trying to put everybody in one building or try. We say instead of building up, we're trying to build out.

[A]

Love it.

[C]

So a lot of our efforts are that way. It does mean we duplicate a lot of processes in those campuses. That other. A church that runs our size that may be in one location would not have to reproduce. You don't have to have nine communicators on a Sunday morning one. And so there's a lot of that that I think we've had to figure out through the years. But it's really allowed us to have a touch point in the upstate that's unique and different and kind of have our own. Our own flair in ministry.

[A]

Love it. So good. Well, let's talk about the residency program. So this is a part of, kind of. There's a. There's a problem in churches, which is how do we develop leaders? And you've clearly outlined why there's even kind of an. You've decided to have a whole other layer on top of that, which is, you know, nine communicators. That's a big piece of the puzzle. But let's talk through first just the, you know, the kind of problem part of the equation. So why residency? What got you into this? Why? What. What led you to the place was there, you know, that said, hey, this is the area, then we need to spend more time on this. What do you. What's the what's the itch you're trying to scratch? What's the pain you're trying to solve through, you know, this effort?

[C]

Well, I probably like a lot of people, I went, I graduated from Liberty University, went from Liberty to Southeastern, right Seminary in North Carolina, right out of high school or right out of college. And I was just figuring life out and I joined the church staff and it was a, it was a great church. I loved it. I still love the people, still connected with those people there, even though it's been over 20 years. But I just didn't have anybody pouring into me. I didn't have anybody helping walk along with me. And of course I had seminary classes. But the whole point of your podcast, they weren't teaching practical leadership skills. You know, we were learning how to teach the word and we're learning how to preach exegetically. We did a lot of great things there, but learning some of those practical skills I had to learn on my own. And so it was just a difficult thing. I feel like I didn't figure out till maybe I was closer to 30 in ministry before I really started, you know, kind of hitting my stride and feeling like I'm, I'm getting a lot more effective here and I know what I'm doing and I've kind of figured things out. So it really kind of started even almost from that standpoint. For me, how can I help young leaders not be thrown into the fire or thrown to the lion, so to speak, where they're trying to figure it out, they're making mistakes that could be career ending mistakes for some of them, even if they're not a moral failure, but just they lose the leadership of the people or they deal with all kinds of other things. And so we wanted to create a scenario where we could develop leaders, help them walk them through that process, help them discover their calling. That's really the, the itch that we're trying to scratch obviously here. Every time we launch a campus, we launch it with a campus pastor, a worship leader, and then a kids coordinator. So for every one of those campuses we launch, we've got to have another kids person in the boot and then soon after that, a student person, depending on size. So it's, it's something that we're constantly trying to find new faces and new leaders. And so as a church, we are feeling that pain at the pace we're growing you mentioned, I think we're 9th fastest growing church in the nation this past year in the fastest growing Southern Baptist church. So for us it really has been a pain point of how can we get the right leaders in there? Not just a warm body, not just somebody who, you know, can, can stand there and do a halfway decent job, but how can we get the right leader that's going to help and actually be somebody we can trust in that campus?

[A]

Love it. So let's, let's talk about when you say residency, what does that mean? You know, what is. I heard churches use that word. When you use the word residency, what do you mean by that?

[C]

Yeah, we've talked a little bit about even changing the name to school of Ministry or something along that lines. But essentially for us, what a residency is is two years post college. We encourage them to do graduate school, seminary, depending on what they do. So if we may have a communications person or a worship person that doesn't pursue a seminary degree but gets a certificate instead, or does a different kind of training, but we pursue seminary education as a part of that. And that's, that's really a process. So college graduates, they spend two years with us and after that two years, man, we're just, we're really hoping, whether it's a two year job interview that they are able to come on with us or we actually get to send them out. And our hope and our prayer is to impact the upstate of South Carolina. So, you know, we want people that we can feed into churches to be leaders in the upstate and lead their church to healthy models too.

[A]

Love it. Let's talk about where you find these residents because I think people could agree, like, oh yeah, I'd love to find. Yeah, like that seems like a sweet spot, man. If I could, if I could find a regular batch of, you know, post, you know, graduate kind of folks that are just finished school and they're looking for this kind of thing. How are you finding them? What's been your, your sweet spot on finding folks?

[C]

Oh, that's great. I think part of it for us is we're not in a college town. We're also, we're not close to a lot of seminaries or anything like that. Anderson university is about 45 minutes to an hour away. We have a campus there and North Greenville is about the same distance away. We don't have a campus up there yet, but we do have some connections. So there are some relationships that have helped, I think, through that. But I think the main thing for us, we're actually trying to develop our leaders here. When they're in high school, we're trying to pour into them, disciple them, nurture that calling that they have and actually create a pipeline to keep building into them. Because we know and you know, you've heard it said like students are not the leaders of tomorrow, they're the leaders of today. We've heard those kind of sound bites, but a lot of people aren't giving them opportunities to lead, giving them opportunities to serve. So we elevate those leaders, give them opportunities to lead and then always try to develop in them a sense of hey, when, when you are ready to discover that calling, we want you to be a part of this back. So I would say probably a number of, of our residents are ones that were either a part of our ministry before or at least while they were in connected with us to some level. So that's probably the majority of us. We're trying to say, hey, how can we develop leaders in house? And honestly, the people that we may even hire one day out of the residency program and we hired two full time just recently with this last group that graduated for us is they know us better than anybody that we could bring in, you know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. They get a huge head start. That's great. I love that. I remember just recently I was at a church where they were talking about a young adult weekend. They had like a bunch of young adults went away to a conference and at the conference it was like a weekend thing and the, the speaker, they had like a, it felt really old school. Like back from when you and I seem like similar generation when we started ministry where there was like do. Are you sensing a call to full time vocational ministry? We want to get you, you know, come to the front now, we want to pray for you kind of thing. And I was, and I was encouraging this church. I was like, man, we got to do that like because it feels like we dropped that out of the equation in a lot of our student ministries that was like, it just not a part of the conversation and we're missing that. So I love that you're, hey, even with high school students trying to raise the value of that and trying to get out in front of that. Talk me through the tension of, you know, this is a training process. We're trying to actually develop leaders. This isn't like a two year job interview. Like they, it's, they're not guaranteeing people like, hey, you're going to get a job. How do you talk about that with people with potential residents? And then how do you think about that? How do those two things kind of relate together?

[C]

Yeah, I mean we, we tell them from the beginning. It's not a promise to a job here at our church. And who's to say we would even be in a financial situation by that point that we could hire them on? So we, we, you know, would be willing to have that conversation, but we're really just upfront from the beginning about that.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Usually about a year into the residency, we start talking, all right, next steps. What do we need to start looking at? How can we help equip you the best good to be prepared for those. Whatever's next for you, whether that's here or somewhere else. And even ones that we would really love to hire. I'll get phone calls from people and I'll still pass their information along because I don't want to stand in the way of what God makes for you to do. That's not what, what we're about. We're really kingdom minded in the way that we're approaching this. To say that's, that's our goal is not to say, hey, how can we build up ourselves, but really how can we build up those next leaders? You're right, man. Like, I don't know, I don't want to blame student ministries or student pastors, but as a church as a whole, we are not inviting people to step up and pursue the calling that God has on their lives for ministry. And so oftentimes it's like, well, they just don't make money or they work crazy hours. And that's true. Those things are, all those things are true a factor. But in reality, the best part about this program that we tell them is we're helping you discover your calling. So, you know, I came out of ministry, I felt like I, I had a specific calling to do the ministry when I started out. And that's where I started while I was in seminary. I've been in several different roles since then, obviously, but I felt that kind of clarity. A lot of Gen Z is coming out of college and going, I don't know yet. I don't know what I want to do. I don't know how I want to fit. And so part of what we're trying to do is say, okay, let's, let's investigate that. What are you interested in? What do you feel led toward? Let's kind of steer you that direction. And then six months in, if that's not a fit, you know, and it's not working, let's try something else. And I. Right, I love that because it really gives you the ability to have your finger in multiple levels or Multiple areas of ministry to see. This is the one I've been really passionate about, that God is leading me down that path. And so that. I mean, I wish I had that. Even though I felt that certain conviction of myself, myself in the student ministry at the beginning, I love that heart and that passion that. That students can have or residents can have to discover that.

[A]

Yeah, that's so good. I love it. Now, what about. I'm sure a part of what you end up doing is having a conversation with the leaders at your church and trying to help them catch a vision for like, hey, there's like a. My impression of this kind of situation is it's like it's two steps backwards to go one step forward or other way around. Two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward. Like, there's a. We've got to slow down and develop leaders.

[C]

How.

[A]

I'm sure. Or is it just everybody at Upstate's like, we're all for developing leaders, and I don't mind spending extra time on this stuff. How do you work that through with your team internally, who might be hesitant to, you know, want to invest in a resident, spend time with them, that sort of thing, because they're like, I got lots going on already.

[C]

Totally. Yeah, you're right. Everybody's schedule is full. I would say it's probably less that they're not interested in developing leaders. Then we do have some that may not know how to. Or know how they're supposed to invest in those leaders. Kind of what we do is in the residency program is we bring them in. We are a team, and we function as a team. And there are things that we cover as a team that we talk about, we discuss. We do discipleship together. We do what we call equipping, which is practical ministry in many ways, theological ministry, discussing through, you know, some even deep theological issues through that as a team to kind of really help them develop depth to what they believe. But we set them in a ministry and we consider that ministry leader their actual boss. So that ministry leader has the ability, for instance, Steve, our missions pastor, executive pastor missions, has the ability to actually pour into the resident that he has, spend an extreme amount of time with him, finding out what his specific goals are and how he can help him meet those goals. And so it's kind of a. It's kind of a win, win, because we're helping the residents meet those goals. They're helping us reach goals. You know, they're part of our team. We get somebody who's here that is not just an, not an intern or anything like that. They're putting in, you know, 30 hours a week with us.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And, and able to help us move the, move the ball forward, especially as we continue to expand. But really we're able to put that time in. They're not just moving chairs, you know, we're trying to do.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, right, right.

[C]

I mean, that was the old idea. Like, oh, you got an intern, have them set up the tables. Like this is. Yeah, this is not that at all.

[A]

You'll pick up the Chick Fil A or whatever.

[C]

Yeah, there may be some of that.

[A]

Yeah, but that's normal in ministry. That's, that's a part of life for sure. Well, one of the things I love about this is, and I've said this for years, I'm like, man, you can, in school, you can learn like the right thing to say or the right kind of theologically true stuff, but there's, it's very different when, you know, for instance, the first time someone that you're sitting across the coffee table with a volunteer, somebody that we're at your church says, I'm thinking about leaving my wife. You know, man, what we don't want is people, you know, to flub that interaction and, you know, the getting people real world experience like that in a, in a, in a safe environment where they, you know, we're, we're not, we're not all eyes on you. Because unfortunately, like, you know, what you say in the next 30 seconds after someone says that to you matters, like, it's, it's.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

You know, there's lots of those, there's lots of examples of that kind of stuff. Talk me through, you know, what does that look like on trying to give people some real world, whether it's pastoral care or, you know, maybe it's like a preaching thing where it's like, hey, the stakes are a little bit higher here, but we're doing it in a way that gives them some support so that they can gain that experience, but that we're not also dropping the ball with our people.

[C]

Well, that's so true. And I think a lot of us learn that the hard way.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[C]

You know, I tell people, you can never surprise me when, when I'm in a counseling session. And there are some times I'm like that, actually. I'm just not a game face right now. Yes. So I think what we do with our equipping sessions, we bring some of the best leaders on our church staff to actually adopt one of those Times and that's good. They'll spend two hours with them on a Wednesday morning and they'll pour out like their expertise on counseling or their expertise on how to handle a funeral or how to handle a wedding or, or just how to, how to deal with somebody who's struggling with same sex attraction or somebody who's depressed or has anxiety or even just like how to, how to create a budget. Like these are things that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Learn in class. No, we have our top leaders just, just meeting with them, helping them develop pipelines, making sure they're, they're making disciples, who are making disciples. And ministry could easily become just, hey, I've got to get there to set up the chairs. I've got to make sure the lights are on and we're not truly pouring into people and so equipping them to look at ministry not as the tyranny of the urgent, but to look at ministry as, this is my opportunity to develop leaders even as a 22 to 24 year old.

[A]

Love it.

[C]

Looking ahead. And so they really get the benefit of our entire staff. It's not like it's, there's one of us, I'm certainly not the expert, that goes in there every week and tries to tell them how to, how to do everything so they get that benefit. Probably something our entire staff would, would really benefit from us doing. If we needed another meeting, that would. Yeah. But it is, it is a great advantage for them. And so we scope kind of a two year curriculum for that, if you want to consider it that way, so that we can repeat it every two years. So no matter where somebody comes in on our residency program, they'll, they'll actually get all of those pieces.

[A]

That's so good. Yeah, I love that. I love that's, you know, that's so fantastic. So it's just you and me, Pat. You know, there's nobody else listening in. What's that thing about, you know, it's kind of like the dirty secret or the pothole to avoid about residency programs that like, hey, nobody told us this. Nobody said there would be this problem. You know, I know that there's like real issues with doing this. What are the thing that you, you say to friends and they're like, hey, we're thinking about this. You may not say it in a podcast in front of people, but you know, you're, you'd love to, but again, it's just us, we're just, just chatting.

[C]

About what's going on. Well, I think the biggest thing when I'm talking to other people is churches see what we do, and they think, oh, I get free labor, and so I can take advantage of that and get some free labor. And they're looking just to offload work instead of looking to develop a leader. So the number one thing I would say, and you kind of hit on earlier, that people overlook, is the time investment that it actually takes to develop a leader. But ultimately, you're multiplying yourself. You're able to do far more than you could by doing that. I think a lot of people don't see that. And I would also say the, the generational thing is probably always a challenge. Just with Gen Z, we tell our, our group, we're like, this residency is designed for you to take initiative. And so there's a fundraising component to what we do. And okay, we thought, we're like, hey, at one point, maybe we should do what we can to pay them instead of doing the fundraising, if we could ever get to that point, which would be great. And then really, the more we prayed about it, the more we thought about it, we're like, this fundraising component actually helps them realize they've got to get out there, they've got to make connections, they've got to talk to people, they've got a hustle. And that's what our residency is about. It's about kind of putting them in scenarios where. Excuse me, putting them in scenarios where if they're waiting on somebody else to tell them what to do, this is going to be a long two years. But they're connected with a ministry leader. They're seeing holes that they can uniquely identify because they have fresh eyes, they have fresh experiences and trying to fill those holes and step up and help us excel, improve as a ministry. So I think a lot of people overlook that. They think, hey, it's. This is just going to be a, a free person and they should be lucky. They should be thankful for us that we're giving them a house to live in or whatever the case. And so instead we feel grateful that we have these young leaders who'd be willing to spend two years with us and develop their skills as well.

[A]

What, what do you say if you know, what's the kind of time commitment on, on your side? Like, if you were to say like one of those, the super people, that's a supervisor, what does that look like? And then what would you say at kind of a central team, whether it's yourself or like, give us a sense of what that kind of time commitment is on both sides. So If I've got a resident in my area, that what does that look like? And then kind of as an organization, what, what do you, what do you feel like you're investing?

[C]

That's good. Basically, it's like having a part time employee with you. So what we have been doing in the past is almost probably the opposite way of what we should be doing it. A resident that would, would apply and that resident is interested in student ministry. I'll contact our student ministry and say, let's interview this person. Let's see if they would be a good fit.

[A]

Okay?

[C]

And we go that direction. What we're trying to move toward is actually having those ministry leaders say, hey, I'm looking for somebody and I would love to have somebody develop. That way we can be more intentional as we interview these residents and bring them on to, to plug them up with a need that we have specifically as well. So it's just going to help us maybe multiply a little better in that way. But yeah, I would say 20 to 25 hours that they spend with a ministry. Hands on. Depending on the ministry, some of those can be, you know, nights or, or weekends. And some of those are in the office, you know, just as regular type job. It just depends on what type of ministry they're in. And I tell residents or future residents, if we have it at our church, you can do it. So communications ministry or senior adults or kids, if, if you're interested in any of those things, you can apply as a part of our residency.

[A]

That's cool.

[C]

Part of that's going to really be birthed out of now those leaders saying, okay, I could really use somebody to work with senior adults. That may be a more difficult resident to find, but there's some out there. And so, yeah, we're going to try and dig into what that looks like. And a lot of our residents have two responsibilities or what we call dual roles. So they may have, they may be in one ministry for 10 to 15 hours, another ministry for 10 to 15 hours, or 1. One for 15, one for 5 or something like that. So just kind of gives them a little opportunity to put their toe in a few different spots and see which one they're more passionate about too. So it really helps us having them around. I would say as part of our central resident team is it's about a five hour or so commitment every week with us. And then we tell them they're full time seminary students and they're part time with us. We really want them to have time to focus on education. And we believe that's important. The way we particularly set that up from a financial standpoint is we actually give them a scholarship to pay for their seminary and then we contribute toward their fundraising and then they raise the remaining of that fundraising on their own. And so ultimately our church's Commitment is around 15,000 a year per resident, but they raise an additional amount of money for them as well. And then when we have a housing option, we make that available to them. So I've got three houses right now that were parsonages from a church that merged with us or a church that we're. A house that we bought. That's because we wanted to get the land next to our church or whatever. And so I'll house them in there when that's available too. So that really does become a huge benefit when they start counting the number.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, and you can see where that, you know, that makes a lot of sense. I can see if somebody's going to seminary, they're like, okay, I could piece this together. I know there's like that part of it and you know, I like that, that fundraising piece, I could see, you know that's a, that sort of, those are helpful skills to kind of work and exercise and, and yeah, the housing, all that, that's. Yeah, that's so good. Good stuff. Well, when you think about kind of the future of the program and you're thinking about where, where this could go, what are some of the questions you're asking or you look up over the horizon, you're thinking, man, it'd be kind of fun to do this someday. It's not necessarily today. What's, what's the future look like for this, for upstate?

[C]

Yeah, the future is exciting and scary all at the same time. As we continue to put campuses, you know, the most recent one we've been talking to is about an hour away. As we continue to do that and think through how do we develop this program and have leaders in that program, we've really got to think next level about that connectivity and making sure that we're all on the same page and where we're going too. So that's a big challenge for us. For any multi site churches that are looking into that, I think I would love to learn from them too on how they're best communicating with one another in that central team and looking at that from these guys because they won't really be a part of a central team except for their connection with the residency. So that's probably the biggest question mark for us moving forward, if we get two and three hours away, how do we stay connected? How do we set that up? But it's exciting as God continues to bring amazing leaders our way. We're. We're really still learning at this in many ways, but we have 10 residents starting in January and we'll open up a few more spots next year. And so we hope to continue to be able to grow that as we move along.

[A]

Yeah, it's great, man. So exciting. I love. It's been so good to kind of get a little bit of behind the scenes curtain look into this. It's just so we're behind the curtain look in this. It's so, so exciting. Anything you'd like to share? Just as we kind of look to wrap up today's episode.

[C]

Oh, man. Just my heart to see leaders developed and my heart to see us lean into the next generation is something I feel like, you know, God's given me a passion for and certainly just as a challenge for churches, if they're trying to figure out where to start, they should start with their kids ministry, they should start with their student ministry. I think sometimes we look for a leader to come in and fix things and we ourselves are not discipling the next generation to be leaders today, right now where we are. So my challenge would just be that I'd be like, hey, you, you have what you need in front of you. And the churches that are struggling, the churches that we talk to often that are even closing their doors, the ones that did not prioritize the next generation, letting them lead. So that's certainly my challenge. Encouragement. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's so good. I love a part of what I love about what you're saying here is for me, what strikes me about churches like yours, yours specifically, who are doing a good job on this residency, you know, thing, or developing next generation leaders in even more broader sense is, you know, you're not thinking about solving today's problems. Residents aren't going to solve. They're going to solve some, but they're not going to solve your January, February problems this year. You know what they are. But, but what you do know is, man, if we can train some people now and get really strategic about that now and apply effort to that and do that consistently, man, two years from now, three years from now, four years from now, you're going to have this pipeline of young leaders that you can plug in that, man, that gives you a huge leg up long term. So I just think that's, that's just so Encouraging to see, you know, your church look, you're really trying to get intentional about this. So good on you. Great stuff.

[C]

One more thought Rich is a lot of churches will not have a problem with paying a fee to a hiring firm to get a pastor in. And if you think about what that fee generally costs and you invest that in the next generation instead, you can develop those same leaders.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Probably less money than you're paying just somebody else to bring somebody in.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. Like that. While that talk about dirty secrets, like that is the dirty secret, though, like, man, like we all the reason why. And I have friends that are in the kind of search business. Like, I get it, you know, that want to go and find. It's very. It's needed. But those people end up hiring and I've hired those folks in the past when I'm like, I've got a burning hole right now that I'm like, we have got to solve this problem. The, the thing is those come around with fair regularity and if we can get ahead of it and think, okay, I don't know, you know, I don't know, like in four years, I'm going to need more leaders. I know that. I don't know what they're going to. I don't know what we're needing to do, but we're going to need them somewhere.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And so what if. What could we do today to try to even get, like you're saying, get into student ministry even earlier in the pipeline, starting to think about who are the young leaders, how do we identify them, what can we do? I just love that. That's so good. Well, Pat, this has been a rich conversation. I really appreciate you being here today and helping us through this. Where do we want to send people online if they want to connect with you or with the church?

[C]

Yeah, upstatechurch.org would be a great place. I'd love to talk to anybody that wants any help or can help us. That'd be great.

[A]

Love it. Thanks so much, Pat. Appreciate you being here today.

[C]

Yeah, thanks a lot, Rich.

[B]

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