Taking Over After a Great Leader: Lessons in Leading Through Transition with Scott Worthington

Summary

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Podcast Summary: unSeminary Podcast

Episode: Taking Over After a Great Leader: Lessons in Leading Through Transition with Scott Worthington

Host: Rich Birch
Guest: Scott Worthington, Lead Pastor at Hope Church, Las Vegas
Date: April 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the nuanced challenges and lessons involved in church leadership transition—specifically when a new leader follows a beloved and visionary founding pastor. Rich Birch interviews Scott Worthington, who in 2022 became Lead Pastor at Hope Church Las Vegas after founder Vance Pittman stepped down. The conversation addresses keeping core values intact while innovating strategy, navigating personal emotions, evaluating culture and team health, and developing as a communicator in the shadow of a strong predecessor. The episode is candid, practical, and packed with insights for anyone navigating or considering church leadership transition.

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Hope Church Background and Scott’s Story

• Hope Church Overview: Multisite church in Las Vegas, NV with three locations, founded in 2001 by Vance Pittman and a small team (“three dudes from the south… 18 people started in his living room.”) [03:09]
• Scott’s Journey: Started at Hope as an intern in 2006, rose through various roles, mentored by Vance Pittman, unexpectedly tapped as successor in 2022—a “wild, amazing, grace-filled ride.” [04:27]
• Transition Distinctives:
  • Chose internal succession over high-profile external hire.
  • Relied on strong mentor-mentee relationship but underestimated unique transition challenges.
  • Transition “felt very healthy in the beginning and even throughout the hard.” [04:50]
  • Noted surprise over the emotional difficulty of differing from his mentor:

    “I didn’t realize how hard that was going to be… to feel like I was disappointing my pastor.” —Scott [06:18]

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Navigating the Tension: Preserve or Change?

• What to Keep:
  • “Everything I know about ministry, I learned from… this church and from Pastor Vance … mission, vision, values, everything has shaped me.” —Scott [08:02]
  • Deeply held core remains:
    • Mission: Connect people to live life as Jesus followers.
    • Vision: “Abide in Christ, connect in community, and share in the mission.”
• What to Change:
  • Inspired by Andy Stanley: “You marry the mission and you date the strategy.” [09:18]
  • Willing to shift ministry strategies to reach post-pandemic realities and new church realities.

2. Strategic Shifts & Spiritual Cartography

• Responding to Pandemic & Reopening:
  • COVID and Vance’s departure overlapped with new building launch; “It all happened so fast.” [11:05]
  • Led a retreat soon after stepping in: “Are we making disciples?” [12:05]
• “Spiritual Cartography”:

  “Everyone is on the spiritual journey somewhere … every Jesus follower has a next step. Following Jesus implies movement.” —Scott [14:33]

  • Developed clear language and signage:
    • “We want to help you take your next step.”
  • Created a Discovery Tool: 20-question assessment to help people identify their spiritual location and next step. [15:45]
  • Addressed pushback around labeling:

    “The only thing worse than helping people see where they are spiritually is not helping people where they are spiritually.” —(paraphrasing Dallas Willard) [15:49]

  • Practicality: Signs, QR codes, church-wide usage, focus on continual growth.

3. Assessing and Nurturing Staff Culture

• Listening Sessions:
  • Despite being a known in-house leader, Scott prioritized listening more than talking with staff groups (approx. 80 people).
  • Asked every department: Where are we thriving? Where can we grow? [18:03]
  • Intentionally heard from interns as well as senior leaders—no defensiveness, just absorbing vital feedback.
  • “That was super, super clarifying and helpful for me as a leader…” [19:40]

4. Signs of Team and Congregational Buy-In

• Early Markers of Trust:
  • “Even through some [difficult feedback], God was continuing to save people here. Our baptism numbers are higher than they’ve ever been.” [21:14]
  • Fostered meetings and honest conversations with long-time members—even when hard.
  • Handled both successful and failed new initiatives with transparency and humility:

    “There were a couple ideas that were great and a couple that were horrible. Let’s never do that again.” [21:22]

5. Developing as a Preacher After a Master Preacher

• Facing Inexperience:
  • “I had preached 37 times to adults in my whole life… [Vance] handed off the baton to somebody who’d preached 37 times.” [22:49]
  • Grew intentionally:
    • Joined a national preaching cohort.
    • Read extensively and sought feedback.
    • Focused on “reps”—just getting practice preaching.
  • Acknowledged importance of context and honoring the preaching history:

    “It’s not that you don’t need to imitate [your predecessor], but you’d be dumb to not at least consider that.” —Rich [26:22] “Some things just naturally come out. Not because I’m trying to be Vance, but because I’ve sat under his teaching for 16 years.” —Scott [26:44]

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Advice for Successors & New Leaders

For “Heir Apparents” Waiting in the Wings

• Posture: Humility and faithfulness in current role; success should not be the goal but serving faithfully where you are.

  “Remain humble, remain dependent, and be faithful in what’s put in your hands now. If he opens that door, joyfully walk through it.” —Scott [29:40]

For Those Recently Transitioned

• Take it slow:
  • “Be careful with how fast you try to change things… Listen more than you talk in those early days. You’ve got to learn.” [30:29]
• Practical Tips:
  • Seek wide input (“took a lot of people out to coffee, a lot of lunches”).
  • Remain accessible and visible—e.g. eat lunch with staff in break room.
  • “People are looking to see if you become now the bougie senior leader… that was an easy win, that created a culture.” [32:19]
  • Look for “softball tosses” (easy wins) that build goodwill and trust.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Emotional Difficulty with Transition:

  “I didn’t realize how hard that was going to be for me, to feel like I was disappointing my pastor.” —Scott [06:18]

• On Core Values:

  “Our mission…hasn’t changed. We exist to connect people to live life with Jesus follower…” —Scott [09:12]

• On Practical Strategy:

  “We believe every Jesus follower has a next step… Following Jesus implies movement. You cannot be following if you’re standing still.” —Scott [14:39]

• On Team Assessment:

  “The point of this little 20 minute meetup is for me to talk less and you to talk more. And I asked … all culture questions.” —Scott [18:26]

• On Humility in New Role:

  “You don’t know what you don’t know… I need to ask a lot more questions than I need to give directives.” —Scott [31:05]

• On Abiding in Christ:

  “Your primary call… is not ministry for Jesus but intimacy with Jesus… Apart from me, you can do nothing.” —Scott [33:49]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hope Church history, Scott’s story: [03:09]-[04:27]
• Explaining the transition process: [04:50]-[07:35]
• Mission vs. strategy; what to preserve: [08:02]-[10:45]
• Strategic changes post-COVID: [11:05]-[14:14]
• Spiritual cartography and language of growth: [14:33]-[17:14]
• Staff/team assessment and listening tours: [18:03]-[20:27]
• Recognizing trust from people: [21:12]-[24:17]
• Developing as a preacher under a master preacher: [24:17]-[26:31]
• Advice for successors-in-waiting and newly transitioned leaders: [27:25]-[33:25]
• Final encouragement: abide in Christ: [33:49]-[34:56]

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Takeaways for Church Leaders

• Succession is emotionally and practically complex, even with a great predecessor relationship.
• Preserve mission and values; adapt strategy to context and post-pandemic realities.
• Listen deeply to your staff and congregation—especially in transition.
• Prioritize clear language around discipleship and next steps; create tools for self-assessment.
• Don’t rush to change everything. Early wins often come through humility, accessibility, and honoring cultural strengths.
• Growth as a leader—especially as a communicator—comes from a learning posture, humility, and a lot of reps.
• Your primary call is not activity for God, but intimacy with Him.

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Connect with Hope Church:
Website & social: hopechurchlv.com | @hopechurchlv

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast, the place where church leaders get practical insights, tips and strategies for ministry growth. Today you're stepping into something bigger than just a conversation. This podcast is part of a bold mission to help 100 churches grow by 1,000 people. Whether you're dreaming of increasing your impact in your community, empowering your team, or reaching more people with the message of Jesus, you're in the right place. We're here to bring you the stuff you wish they taught in seminary. Ideas and tools you can put into action this week to see transformation in your ministry. Let's dive in.

[A]

Hey friends. Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Really looking forward to today's conversation. This is one of those issues that that literally thousands of churches across the country are at some phase of working on. And so I know that this is going to be a practical conversation for you. Excited to have Scott Worthington with us today. He is the lead pastor at Hope Church Church in Las Vegas. It's a multi site church with three locations if I can count correctly. In Nevada. They were founded in 2001 by Vance Pittman and then he passed the baton to Scott, who stepped into the senior pastor role in 2022. Super excited to have Scott on the show today. Welcome. So glad you're here.

[C]

Thank you so much. Rich. It is a privilege, grateful to be here with you today.

[A]

Honored that you're, you're here and taking some time out. I know you got lots going on. Tell us a little bit of the Hope Church story. Kind of cast a bit of the picture if we were to arrive this weekend, what we experience, that sort of thing.

[C]

Yeah, Hope Church is an incredible church here in Las Vegas, as you said, three locations, three congregations, what we call them. And, and yeah, I began to attend Hope Church right out of college in 2006, 2007, and I've been here for, I guess 20 years now. And Vance Pittman, you mentioned his name, he was my pastor. He is the founding pastor here. He planted this church in 2001. Three dudes from the south moved to Las Vegas, Nevada and 18 people started in his living room. It's an incredible story of just church planting. And I don't know how much we'll get into that, but obviously that's not my story to tell, that's his. But it's, it really is a miracle of God of what he's done here. And then, yeah, Vance is my pastor for, for 16 years. I, I started as an intern in the student ministry and kind of just as God opened doors, walked through those doors and eventually I was the most surprised guy in the room when, when Pastor Vance tapped, tapped me on the shoulder in 2022 and he was being called to go lead a church planning organization here in North America. And yeah, he said, I think you're supposed to be the senior pastor. And so we walked through our whole process and it has been such a privilege now going on four years of leading the church that I've loved for 20. So it's been, it's been a wild, amazing, grace filled ride, man.

[A]

Love it. I am looking forward to diving into that today and helping people understand kind of what you learned through that process a little bit. I wonder if we could start. What's your like, you know, you're at a conference or you're talking to somebody and they're like, explain to me how the transition went. What's the kind of the two minute version. I know it's like there's a lot there. But how, how do, how did that from that initial conversation through till. Okay, you know, you're now the lead pastor. What's that look like?

[C]

Yeah, the transition in the beginning, I would say it was, it was really great. And, and, and the things that I'll share publicly here is they've all been dealt with and things have been reconciled. I'm, I'm so grateful Pastor Vance is actually coming. Our 25th anniversary is this September and he is coming to, to, to preach our 25th anniversary. I'm so, so looking forward to that. But you know, in the beginning there's, there's do transitions. Of course, there's so many. Some people, especially when you got a kind of larger than life guy like Pastor Vance, they'll bring in another kind of larger than life big name somewhere. And we just felt like, and I say we, that was our whole lead pastoral staff, our stewardship team, which is our board. We just felt like that that wasn't the, that wasn't the move for us, that God wasn't leading. I wasn't so much a part of those conversations because my name was the leading name. And Vance just said, and I think it's, I think God has raised up the next leader. Right, right from within. And so that's already a little different in that sometimes it's like a five year run or six year run and it's like there's a whole plan. This was, this was a matter of months. I'm going from being one of the worship pastors here to being the lead pastor. And it was, it was very healthy in the beginning and even, even throughout the hard. It was, it was good and God's grace has been all over it. But man, we just didn't know, we didn't know. One of the things we took for granted, I think, is that because of the relationship between Vance and I, I mean, he was my pastor for 16 years. We had a podcast together. I mean, we traveled together. I was the student pastor to his kids. I mean, it's one of my really, really good friends, my mentor, my, my pastor and some of the advice that many people had written books on and done podcasts on and what, what you should do in transition. Frankly, we just thought, I don't know if we need to do that. Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's Scott and Vance. It's, it's, it's all good. And, and there was just things that we, I didn't know how to handle. I don't know if he knew how to handle. And again, I, I want to be careful. I don't want to put Words in his mouth. We've talked a lot about all this. I can speak for me, when Vance had an opinion that may have differed from mine in the way I should be doing something, I didn't realize how hard that was going to be for me to feel like I was disappointing my pastor, you know what I mean? And really, really good, deep conversations have been had since then. But, yeah, of course, you know, we all know theologically, Joshua isn't called to be Moses. You know, Joshua had to do things differently, and it was harder for me to do that than I realized Rich. It was harder for me to go right when I've been trained so long to go left by Pastor Vance. But I really felt God leading us right in some ways, and that was actually more difficult for me than I anticipated.

[A]

Yeah, I'd love to double click, click on that part because I think that the core of all of these transitions, right, is this tension of, like, hey, there's some stuff that's essential to preserve. And then by definition, like, I think that's a really apropos, you know, Moses to Joshua I think is really good, vivid example. There's also things that need to evolve and change. How. What helped you distinguish between those two as you think about, here's some stuff we should really keep, and then here's some stuff we should maybe start thinking differently about.

[C]

Yeah, I would say to start with the one I needed to keep. I mean, I've been discipled here. I didn't give my life to Christ at this church, but I joke and say, I wish God would have saved me at this church. So it would have literally been, you know, the entire story. But I got saved here, another church in town, and quickly kind of made the transition through some circumstances here to Hope. But everything I know about ministry, I learned from, from this church and from Pastor Vance. And I mean, my wife and I were married to this church. We began having kids at this church. I. I've. I've joked that my entire adult life has been lived in the context of discipleship at Hope Church. And so all of the things, I mean, our mission, our vision, our values, everything has shaped me as a husband, a father, a Jesus follower, a pastor. You know, I'm so grateful that God's given Vance such a platform around the world. I mean, he. He literally travels all over the country and all over the world preaching about this idea that of John 15, right apart from him, we can do nothing. That our primary call is to intimacy with Jesus, not ministry for Jesus. And I mean, these are things that I, I just rattle off because they're so in me. And, and that was what was so embedded in the culture of Hope church from the very beginning, when it was 18 people in his living room now to thousands. And I knew there's no way I could do anything other than that. And so, you know, our mission, our vision is, hasn't changed. We, we exist to connect people, to live life with Jesus follower. And we believe a Jesus follower abides in Christ, connects in community, and shares in the mission. I mean, these are things that I've heard for 20 years and I'm still preaching to this day because they've changed me. Those were things that were, I mean, they, those were not changing, but I think it's that old Andy Stanley line. You know, you, you marry the, the, the mission and you date the strategy. And so there were some ways that we were. And I might have butchered that. I have no idea. Sorry. Yeah, I, I knew there were some things strategically that maybe we could start to play with the, that would help people deeper abide in Christ connected community and sharing the mission. So those were the things that we started as a team. And that's what I'm also grateful for. The tracks that Vance laid down of doing things together with a plurality of elders. And so this isn't me on a mountain coming up with the ideas and saying this is what the Lord says. There's an incredible team of pastors around me, especially as I'm younger in the pastorate here, helping me make those decisions and helping me understand what we should be. And of course, I'm driving with vision. They are such gifts to me. And that was all stuff that I, I picked up the baton from Vance. He led that way. And so I've tried to, to continue that and, and really tap into the guys around me.

[A]

Yeah, that's great. I'd love to double click on that. Around some strategic decisions that, that you've sensed with your team. Hey, there's. We need to, maybe to go in a new direction. What led you to that? What was kind of the data? What were you seeing? What, what was the, the thing that kind of precursed even making those decisions? And then if there's an example of one or two, that'd be interesting as well.

[C]

Yeah. So listen to this podcast. They know, man, Covid was just such a shake up for everybody. And we were interesting because not only do we have Covid here and you know, I know depending on where you're listening, you had different restrictions and all that. But we. We had a lot here in Vegas. We. We had really taken a lot of our cues at that time from California. And so if you know what California did, we were. We were kind of right behind them. And yeah, we. So we going into kind of reopening, if you will. We also just built a new building. And so we had a new building reop. The shakeup that Covid brought all of us then. It sounds like a long time, but we know one or two years of ministry goes by in a flash. And so within one or two years of kind of reopening and re establishing who our church really is, not just, you know, watching on YouTube, but also in the room and really the. The core of the community, that's when the transition happened. So it all happened so fast, so we really had to take a step back and go, okay, who. Who is our church? Are we making disciples? Right? That's just our. Our mission to connect people, to live a life of Jesus follower is just a contextualized version of mission, right? To make disciples. So are we doing that? And that's a. That's a hard question to ask because you. You got to be prepared to really deal with the results, right? Like when you ask your leadership team. And that's what I did. That very first lead team retreat we took two months after I began leading Hope. I said, guys, I'm gonna ask a question that sounds silly, but it needs to be asked. Are we making disciples? Are we making helping people abide in Christ, connect to community and share in the mission. Course we have stories of like, yes, this person that just recently got saved, you know, out of the harvest, into the harvest kind of thing. But when you really started to drill down kind of on this new. I hate to say new church, but I mean, out of COVID we all know, man, it was. They were like, you're meeting new people, it's growing, and then you're going, wait, where did all those other people go? They got used to Sundays by the pool, you know, like, and we're. We're just asking good, hard questions that I think lead you to start making strategic choices that. That push the mission forward. And so, yeah, we're asking those hard questions. And then we're saying, okay, does the. The. Does the strategy we used to have, does that accomplish the mission now in this season, in this time? And of course, we. We saw some fruit there. Incredible fruit. But new leader, new season, in some ways, a lot of a new church. Let's move forward with maybe some different strategic Initiatives. And that's when we started to, to kind of ask the question which will lead to maybe some practical stuff. People spiritually. That's kind of where we've been leading over the last few years. Asking a question. You know, the, the super nerdy form of this is, is spiritual cartography. That's really nerdy, but like really helping people understand everyone is somewhere spiritually. We want to help you see where you are spiritually and then help you take a next step and really just like putting it on the bottom shelf. How do we help people grow in their faith and take next steps? And that's basically kind of the strategy we've been operating off on for the last couple years. And it's, it's been incredible.

[A]

Yeah, that's cool. I love that. I wonder if you could, you know, give us a little bit of detail around that spiritual cartography. Love that. That's great turn of phrase. But how, how are we. How are you helping people see more clearly where they are and then provide those steps that maybe looks a little different. It's been a shift than say 10 years ago kind of thing as a church.

[C]

Yeah. I'd say, you know, everyone, again, leaders listening know this, but it starts with language. So we just started very strategically saying a couple things. Number one, saying, hey, we believe everyone is on the spiritual journey somewhere or everyone is a certain place on the spiritual journey. And we believe every Jesus follower has a next step. I like that language because it connects our mission to the strategy. Right. If we exist to connect people, to live a life with Jesus follower, we say, hey, every Jesus follower has a next step. If, if it's about following Jesus. I joke with our church not to insult your intelligence, but following Jesus implies movement. It implies you are taking steps you cannot be following if you're standing still. And you know this. But I mean there, there are people in churches that have checked all the boxes I give I, I serve, I, I got baptized. And then they think I've checked all the main assimilation boxes. I guess I must be done growing. And we know that is not the case. There's always more of Christ. There's always more of, of his movement in our lives. And so that was language that we just. I mean, I, I end every email with that. We, we talk about that in staff meeting. I using, where are people on the spiritual journey and how do you take your next step? Or their staff? I'm encouraging what's, what's your next step with me? I'm always saying, hey, I believe God's leading me in my next step to this. And so language, I think, starts it. And then of course, you got to give people handlebars. You gotta. And of course, including language, by the way, is signage. I mean, there's signs all over our campus now that, hey, we want to help you take your next step. And we developed what we call our discovery tool, which I think is then really helpful tool that we've given people. It's. It's very simple. It is. I think it's 20 questions that just gauge to help people understand where they are on their spiritual journey. And I know some people might be thinking, well, that sounds like you're labeling folks. And that is the number one pushback that we get on this. And I get it. I get it. People think if you tell people that where they are on the spiritual journey, they're going to feel like they're labeled and they. They can't, you know, whatever it may be. And I think Dallas Willard said, I'll probably butcher this quote too. But he said the only thing worse than helping people see where they are spiritually is not helping people where they are spiritually. Like, it's one of those, like, yes, there are dangers, if you will, because, you know, on the wrong hand, somebody could weaponize it and be like, well, you're this way spiritually, and I'm this way spiritually. But at the end of the day, as a church, we want to help people take next steps in their faith. And so that tool has been really helpful. So there's like wayfinding signs all over our campus where they can scan a QR code and. And take that tool. And we do that in our services, and we're trying to help people just take a next step.

[A]

That's great. I love that. That's so good. Maybe we'll link to that. I think I've seen that actually on your site or I saw that somewhere when I was poking around to even give people a sense of that. Don't take the test, though, friends. Just look at it. Because we don't want to stuff your system with a bunch of, you know, bad data. But yeah, that's. That's fantastic. Pivoting a little bit to your team. So one of the interesting dynamics when any, you know, there's a kind of lead pastor transition is obviously there was a team when you joined, and they're amazing people that God's been using them, done great things. But a part of your early job is to assess kind of where are things at and staff health and Try to gain actual kind of insight from them and to think about the future. When you think about those early days, what were you doing to kind of establish yourself and assess where things were at with your team?

[C]

Yeah, again, because of the nature of our transition, I was not a new guy. Right. That was. That, I think is a lot of transition leaders. They're going, all right, I need to establish myself and people need to get to know me. I've been here. There's one other guy that's been on staff longer than I have at this point. He's one of my best friends. He's still on our staff. He's. He's incredible. He's been here 20 years, I've been here 19. And so I'm a known. It wasn't like, hi, my name's Scott. Let me, let me get to know you. But now that I am the leader, what I wanted to do is I wanted to get to know the culture. I wanted to get to know what is really happening on our staff level, especially through a transition. You know, people, people get all kinds of feels and some people are like, oh, what's going to happen? Or some people may be excited or what it may be. So actually sat down. I recommend depending on your size of, or scope, whoever's listening, this could be really helpful or maybe impossible to do. But, you know, we had at that time probably a staff of about 80. And I literally brought every staff team in. You, you got small groups and worship and, you know, whatever it may be, break up with your departments. And whether it was the lead pastor of that ministry or the intern, I invited them all in and I had them. I asked him five questions and I said, the point of this little 20 minute meetup is for me to talk less and you to talk more. I'm just going to take notes. And I asked. And they were all culture questions. Where do you feel, you know, where do you feel most motivated for the mission right now at Hope Church, stuff like that. Very much like, where do you feel like we have a strong culture? Culture, and where do you feel like we need to grow as a culture? And I tried to be true to my word. I gave the questions and then I shut up and let them talk. And man, to hear, you know, the intern right next to the lead pastor of that ministry, just share honestly. And I didn't give feedback, I didn't defend. And there were things that you wanted to, right? You wanted to go, well, wait a minute, let me tell you why that is. And I just knew I'M getting data right now that will help me make decisions to help shape the culture that we want here at Hope. And not to say that the culture was bad, of course, I'm not saying that. But again, new leader, I need to see kind of what we're dealing with as we go forward and where people's hearts and minds are as we. As we walk through a major transition with our founding pastor. And so that was super, super clarifying and helpful for me as the leader, then I can make decisions with my team to help, you know, drive that culture to a better place.

[A]

That's cool. The church has continued to grow and impact people, which is incredible. And that's, you know, I think both to you, you know, to both you guys credit that you. You handled this transition in a way that it wasn't like, hey, things collapsed, so you honor you for that. That's. That's incredible. When you think about those early, you know, maybe year or two, what were some early signs that you felt as a leader? Okay, people are with me. Like, this is. Because there's the. Like, there's the. Someone's gonna take over. This is being foist upon you. But then eventually people decide, are they going to follow you or not? What were some of those signs where you're like, oh, no, I think. I think that's gonna work. People are gonna follow me.

[C]

Yeah, I think, man, it was just.

[B]

It's.

[C]

It's all God's grace. Because, yeah, I know looking back now, I was. I made some mistakes. You know, there's that balance. And anybody who's. Who's led a transition knows this. Like, there's the balance of wanting to, you know, wanting to continue to do what. What God has been doing here at Hope. But then, you know, okay, I think I have this idea. And, you know, we did a couple ideas that were like, those are great. And then a couple ideas that were like, that was horrible. Let's never do that again. And love it. Even through those, you know, some hard conversations with some longtime members that. That had some. By the way, I think that's another great tip, like, invite those in, man. When somebody's been at our church for 8, 10, 12, 20 years and they request a meeting, it'd be really easy for me, like, ah, you know, come on, old timer. No, man, These are gifted saints who have given so much to this church. Like, I would relish a meeting and a lunch with them, even if it's hard to hear. There were some. There were some, like, hey, I got. I Got some questions on what we're doing. And, yeah, I would say, man, when. When. Even through some of that, God was continuing to save people here. Our baptism numbers are higher than they've ever been. And I know, you know, I'm pretty hard on myself, so I know the mistakes that I've made. I know that. I mean, gosh, anybody who's listening to this, who knows who Vance is, I. I don't say this because I'm on a public podcast. I've said this behind closed doors. He's one of, if not my favorite preacher of this generation. I mean, the dude can preach the paint off the walls. And up until this. This is a funny little nugget. Up until, you know, I wasn't the preacher here. I was the secondary preacher. I was. I preached six or seven times a year. I was the one of the worship guys. I led the creative ministry. And when I began to lead Hope Church, I counted them because they're all on one file on my computer. I had preached 37 times to adults in my whole life, which even if you hear that, like, that's kind of crazy that Vance would hand off the baton to somebody who preached 37 times. So I knew, listen, I need to grow in my preaching. I've preached, you know, less than a few dozen times, and I'm taking over for one of the greatest preachers ever, and a guy that. I've sat under his preaching for 16 years and just grown so much. So all of that, and still God's growing our church, still people are getting baptized. It shows a couple things, Rich. It's not. It has nothing to do with me. It's all his grace. But also, they do trust me. There were elements and initiatives we did and things we tried, and people showed up, and. And people were encouraging, and it was like, man, there. There are glimpses of God's grace that they're with us, not just me, my leadership team. And. And those were pretty evident, really, early on. And I praise God for that, man, because those were. Those were wind in our sails.

[A]

I'd love to hear more about what you were doing to grow your preaching. That. That's incredible. I think there are oftentimes in a transition like this, the. The person that people are looking for is the. Like, who's the person that's been up 20 times a year or whatever? So what have you done to grow that side? What's that development track look like for you?

[C]

Yeah, I. Right in the beginning, I jumped into a. I jumped into a preaching cohort. That was a kind of a national thing that I, that I got a part of, and I got to be travel a few places with a group of guys for eight months, and, and we just, we just learned how to be better preachers from some of the best in the world. It was awesome. And I'm just a natural learner. And so I, I, I've just devoured the preaching books and, and, and then I knew everyone. You can do all that. At the end of the day, it's reps. It's reps. So as I look back at, like, those first couple months of sermons, I could tell I was, I was trying to be. Not trying to be Vance. I don't think I've ever done that, but, you know, trying. It was just a little outside of me. And I praise God for the grace that our church has given me, but I feel like now I'm finally a few years in finding my voice and finding what I'm good at and what I'm not. And, and, and so, yeah, it's just, it's reps, but then also just learning from the pros, man, doing preaching cohorts and, you know, doing, you know, online modules and, and then listening to a ton of preaching and eating the meat, spitting out the bones, and I think all of that maybe just kind of contributed. And, and I praise God. I'm still 39 years old, and I have more than 37 reps under my belt now, but it's still not a lot, a lot in comparison to many guys listening to this. And I can't, I joke. I was like, I can't wait to see the preacher. I am at 50 years old, another 11 years, man, I can't wait. I can't wait.

[A]

Yeah, that's fantastic. Well, and that is, you know, there's an interesting tension there. I've said so I'm not. I used to think I was a good communicator, and then I worked for some really great communicators. And so then I was like, oh, man, I'm not very good at this. But. And so I've spent a lot of time thinking about this part of what we do. And there is an interesting thing where, like, I've said to people when we would have someone come and guest speak, you know, I would say, listen, you, you can't ignore the community. The fact that the community has been developed under Vance teaching, and they're, they're used to that. And so it's not that you, you don't need to imitate him. But you would. You'd be dumb to not at least consider that as you're preaching. Right.

[C]

You.

[A]

You need to think through. You can't be like, oh, I'm gonna be something totally different, because it's just hard to make that transition. And so you've got to at least consider that in the. In the transition.

[C]

And. And the thing with that is, again, because of the nature of our transition, some things just naturally come out. Not because I'm trying to be Vance, but it's because I've sat under his teaching for 16 years. Right. Like, it naturally comes out of me.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And it's not like, oh, he's copying Vance. It's like, no, I'm. I'm actually being the disciple. Influence God raises up in churches that you are in for a long time.

[A]

Yeah. 100. Which is. Which is great. Which is fantastic. So think. I want you to put on kind of the theoretical hat. I want you to think about two different groups of people. First, the. The successor is kind of the heir apparent. Sitting in a church today. They're waiting in the wings. They haven't been identified, maybe even publicly. There's been some conversation. What would you say to that person to be working on? I know that wasn't your situation. It was kind of jumped quickly, but I would love to get your thoughts. What would you say to a leader that reaches out to you and asks, Ask that, you know, hey, what advice would you give them?

[C]

I would say, yeah, and just to rewind real quick. It's funny, there actually was when, you know, when Vance and I were doing our podcast, you know, before and after podcast, they would be these kind of. These kind of statements of like, man, one day in eight or nine years, when I retire, I think you're the guy. But again, that was eight or nine years. So there was definitely kind of talks, and it seemed like Vance kind of knew at some point, but then when he got the call to go lead the church funding organization, it was. It just kind of got, you know, shifted into. Yeah. Accelerated. Yeah. So. But I would say, man, in those. In those moments, I. I just. I just tried to remain humble and like, God, if this is. If this is what you want, awesome. If. If it's not. I also love what I'm doing. One of the things that I think, again, it kind of feels weird saying this, but I've been, you know, told this, and I do. I do affirm it. I think one of the reasons why God opened the door and put it on Vance's heart and the leader's heart at the. To ask me to step into this is. This was not something I was, like, shooting for. And, you know, I got one of my best friends got about to plant a church in New York, New York City, next year. We're sending him out in a couple months. Like, he knew from a very early age that God put on his heart to plan a church. I'm not saying that's bad. I think there are guys listening, people listening to this right now that are like, I am called to plan a church. That's awesome. Or called to lead a church. That was just not my story. I. Whether I was a student pastor or the worship pastor, like, I was grateful to be a part of whatever God had me doing. And it's that idea that Jesus says, right, Being faithful with little and then maybe being entrusted with much. And that doesn't mean you're always going to get the top seat on the organization. But I was just like, okay, Lord, if that. If that's what you have for me one day when Vance retires, awesome. Prepare me now for that. And we know again, back to Joshua and Moses. We know, man. Joshua shows up way back in the story, and he's just the. He's just the dude that sent out to be a spy. No, nobody at the time knew that he was going to be the leader, but God knew, knew. And Joshua was faithful with what he had in front of him. Because I also have heard of transitions getting weird where, like, it doesn't happen. Right? The heir apparent is, like, behind the scenes. It's. It's. It's stamped, and then five years come and go, and it's like, hey, I don't think this is it. And so if you put all of your eggs and, like, I am the guy, rather than just holding it open and be like, lord, this is what right now seems to be the plan. But, you know, many are the plans of a man, but the Lord directs the steps. So, yeah, I would say remain humble, remain dependent, and be faithful in what's put in your hands now. And if he opens that door, joyfully walk through it, because his grace will sustain you.

[A]

Yeah, it's fantastic. The other person I'm thinking about is somebody that's. They're in, like, the first 90 days, this transition has just taken place. When you look back to the early days of your transition, either what did you wish somebody said you, or maybe here was something that went well, or, you know, maybe here's a pothole that I want you to avoid, particularly in that first window, the first couple months as you've started to walk into that.

[C]

Yeah, it's kind of the, I feel like pretty, pretty age old advice, but, you know, be careful with how fast you try to change things. I, I don't think there's a couple things that I did that I definitely would go back and go, hey, that was, that was not, not wise. But I, I got some, some great advice. I had some great guys around me, and I think you have to listen more than you talk in those early days. You've got to learn. And again, it depends on if you're the new guy or you're like me. You came up in the organization, but you're still now the new. At the new seats. There's still just a lot of learning. I mean, I remember the first time I sat down. It was before the official transition, of course, but it was, it was right, right around the summer of 22 when I first sat down with like the financial books for the first time. And I'd never seen any of that. And I just knew in that moment, I have so much to learn. That was an area that I just had never even even been in a back room in. And so it was just again, that humble posture. Like, I have so much to learn here, and I need to ask a lot more questions than I need to give directives. I need to, I need to listen more than I need to talk. Of course, there's moments when I'm leading my staff and all the things where I need to give vision and direction. And I'm not saying abdicate your responsibility as a leader, but, man, you don't know what you don't know, especially in those first 90 days, and I would even say six months to a year where you're just learning things. And then Matt took a lot of people out to coffee, a lot of people to lunch in our church, and I just, I started to ask questions about how they feel about the culture of hope and how we can grow and how we can get better. And yeah, I, I gave my staff a lot of access. Some people will be like, ah, that's dangerous. I literally put a glass door in my office and I said, hey, at any point you guys want to swing by if you got questions about what you see, I've called them just softball tosses. Like, what are those softball tosses that you can do? You know, eating lunch in the break room, if you have a break room, or taking your staff to lunch because people are looking for you to become now the bougie senior leader that doesn't have time for the staff. At least that's been my spirit. Like, people are looking like, oh, now, you know, now Scott's the top guy. And I just was like, I've never been that guy. I've never been the guy that isolates. And so I'm still going to eat my lunch in the break room. I'll never forget we had a staff member come in and it was like three weeks after the transition. She said, said, what are you doing in here? And she was genuinely shocked that I was eating lunch in the break room. And I laughed and I said, I've been eating lunch in this break room for 15 years. And, and that was an easy win. Like, that created a culture. And now I eat lunch with our staff in the break room. And I know, you know, depending on the scope, the scope and scale of whoever's listening, that could be different, but a large church like us, like, they, they didn't expect that for me. And so it was an easy win. So, man, look for easy wins. Listen more than you talk and, and just be humble that, that you're going to learn a lot in those, in those early days.

[A]

Yeah, that's so good. I think the, the posture of humility goes a long way. And it's interesting how those, it's like a relatively small thing, but like something as simple as, like, hey, you know, eat in the break room. I think can, can speak volumes to people and earn you chips for then, you know, other things that are coming. Scott, this has been a super helpful conversation. Any last words as we wrap up today's conversation?

[C]

Yeah, I would just, I, I think I, I want to encourage the listeners with what the discipleship that I've learned here at Hope for so long, because I know, I know, I know even this morning, ministry leaders can, can get so busy that they, they start to think, I can skip out on my time with the Lord. And again, I just honor Pastor Vance for teaching me this for so many years. It really cannot be said enough that your primary call on your life, if you're listening to this and you're in ministry and you got a big role and a big title and a big church, and you're even a small role, a small title, small church, you have responsibility over people. Jesus was not lying when he said, apart from me, you can do nothing. But if we abide in him, we bear much fruit. See, what's crazy is the enemy deceives us into thinking, well, we can skip that part so that I can go make much fruit. You can't. It's a dead branch cut off from the vine. You can't bear any fruit. But connected to the vine, spending that time with Jesus, really cultivating a true deep relationship with the Lord actually is what produces the fruit. And I don't know, maybe somebody needs to hear that this morning. Like I need to hear that.

[A]

No, that's fantastic. Scott, thank you so much for being here today, for taking some time to spend with us. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them? Online?

[C]

Yeah. Hopechurchlv.com Hopechurchlv.com that's got all our stuff and we're on the socials with all the the same handle hopechurch lv and any way we can serve the the greater kingdom, man, we're down for it.

[A]

Great. Thanks so much for being here today. Appreciate that.

[C]

Thank you guys.

[B]

Thanks for tuning in to the Unseminary podcast. Drop by unseminary.com for more helpful resources for you and your team. There you will find articles, online courses and so much more unseminary stuff you wish they taught in seminary. Presented by CDF Capital. Visit them at CDF Capital Unseminary.