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unSeminary Podcast
Unshakable Faith in a Shifting Culture: Helping People Stay Rooted with Aaron Graham
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- [00:03]
Rich
Do you feel like your church or school facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path to expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt like you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the needs of your community? Well, the team over at Risepoint can help you. As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is literally a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers, and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to move your mission forward. Check them out@risepoint.com that is RisePoint with an E. While you're there, schedule a free call to explore possibilities for your needs, the vision, your future, that sort of thing. Risepoint believes that God still uses spaces and they're here to help you again. Reach out to them today. That's RisePoint with an e.com RisePoint.com and Schedule A call today.
- [01:23]
Unseminary Podcast Host
Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast, the place where church leaders get practical insights, get to tips and strategies for ministry growth. Today you're stepping into something bigger than just a conversation. This podcast is part of a bold mission to help 100 churches grow by 1,000 people. Whether you're dreaming of increasing your impact in your community, empowering your team, or reaching more people with the message of Jesus, you're in the right place. We're here to bring you the stuff you wish they taught in seminary, ideas and tools you can put into action this week to see transformation in your ministry. Let's dive in.
- [02:02]
Rich
Hey friends. Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast. Super excited that you have decided to tune in today. I know you got a lot going on this week and the fact that you would turn us on is just incredible. So we want to honor you for that. Thanks for doing that. Today we're going to talk about some stuff that I know is applicable to all of us. It it's the kind of conversation that we're wrestling with in all of our churches and we're we also have a repeat guest which you know, does not happen that often at on seminary and you know, when we have repeat guests it means I really want you to hear them and hear what they have to say. Out today we're honored to have Aaron Graham with us. He is the lead pastor of District Church. It was founded in 2010 in Washington, DC. It's a Christ centered culture defining church for transplants and natives. The church was born from a dream about what it would look like for a church to be or to seek the peace of the city and, and to exist for the sake of Christ and for the good of the city. So we're really excited to have Aaron with us today. Aaron, welcome back to the podcast after a couple of years, but glad you decided to come back on. Appreciate that.
- [03:03]
Aaron Graham
Thanks, Rich, for having me and love what you guys are doing and how you're practically helping church leaders like myself address problems we're facing in our organizations and culture, cultural contexts.
- [03:16]
Rich
Kind of you to say that. Give us a bit of the District story for folks that, you know, my mom listens to every episode, but not everyone listens to every episode, but kind of give us a bit of the District story and talk a little bit about how you intersect with all of that.
- [03:31]
Aaron Graham
Yeah, we launched 15 years ago right in the heart of D.C. we meet two miles north of the White House and made up of mostly young adults becoming more intergenerational. But one of the things we've become known for is just our diversity. So there's over 80 nations represented in the church. Last night at the newcomers dinner, there were 14 nations represented. And so just in that small little dinner. So, so that's a real privilege we have of doing that. We're church of life groups and just love what we're doing right here in the heart of D.C. so good.
- [04:05]
Rich
I once heard a leader say that, you know, D.C. is full of young leaders, young people like and, you know, the whole thing that, you know, the main business we'll call it in D.C. is all run on the back of, you know, 20s and 30s who are making a huge difference. What have you noticed with reaching that? And I know, I know you're, you're, you're, like you said there, you're becoming a more diverse church and you know, age wise in all different ways. But let's, let's kind of focus in on that kind of 20 somethings, 30 somethings. What have you, what have you been noticing with folks in that generation as it comes to faith and their relationship with Jesus and you know, all of their kind of spiritual side. What are some of the observations you're seeing?
- [04:52]
Aaron Graham
Yeah, well, I think a lot of young adults are leaning into their faith more than ever. There's a revival in so many ways happening among young people. But there's also a lot of retreating and people drifting in their faith. And so we kind of find Ourselves with people either leaning in like never before or leaning out like never before. And in a context like DC People move to DC to change the world. I mean, this is where you come. This is a city of public service. And so these are the Ivy League educated, top of their class. They move here, they land that, that job at the US Capitol, working for a member of Congress or the White House or an agency or an advocacy firm. And so what happens is it's very highly educated people here, and highly educated people, I've noticed, have a deep care for those who are suffering, and they want to make a difference. That's like what public service is all about. Like, I want to help serve people, and like, the government is supposed to exist to serve people. And so just that kind of love for neighbor. I want to help people out. And so D.C. is like a very politically progressive, highly educated city. And there's a lot to draw upon with that because people are making a lot of sacrifices. But it does come with some problems. Mainly people drifting from biblical orthodoxy, the historic Christian faith that has been handed down to us.
- [06:22]
Rich
Yeah, I, I, so I'm Canadian for folks that are listening in and don't know that I lived in the States for a bunch of years. We lived in New Jersey. And I remember the first time I visited D.C. as a Canadian, I felt patriotic for America. I was like, man, this place is unbelievable. I'm like, you know, and obviously I was just there as a tourist and actually were visiting some friends, and we got the tour of the Capitol, one of these, like, behind the scenes. Let me put you behind the velvet rope. And I was like, this place is unreal. Like, what a, what a place to serve. And yeah, it has that kind of feeling of, you know, wow, people are coming to change the world, really, in a positive way. I'd love to kind of focus in on this. As you talk about people that are leaning, you know, leaning back, leaning away, drifting from their faith, drifting from Orthodoxy. You know, we've heard a lot about even the kind of deconstructing movement and that, you know, there's, it is an interesting time we live in spiritually, because these are like two realities that are kind of happening at the same time. People leaning in and leaning back. What are some of those common assumptions that you've noticed for people who are leaning back from, like, you say, an orthodox Christian faith?
- [07:30]
Aaron Graham
Yeah, absolutely. I think one is just, We've heard this, but just church hurt. I think scandals and hypocrisy in the church among leaders is kind of at least at an all time high of what we're hearing about right now. And so because we're so tapped into the news and online, I think most people are very aware if they haven't had a bad experience, they know somebody who has been been hurt by a religious leader or by, you know, a church leader. And it's sort of like, you know, we always hear the bad examples. Right. Like all the planes that arrive safely every day, you never hear about. But when, when the one plane has some mechanical issues or has. Has a rough landing, you hear about it. And I think there's so many just faithful pastors and church leaders out there that are doing awesome work. But unfortunately we're hearing about the bad apples and there's been a lot of them that have been reported on. So I think that influences people saying, do I really want to be a part of this? If it's an option, do I? You know, so church hurts one of them. I think theological differences. I mean, this is the age of the church split and human sexuality is like front and center of that. But politics increasing these, these last few years or what side are you on and how do you interpret? So. So I think political theological differences. And then I think just like complacency, like just straight up spiritual drift. It's not doctrine doctrinal, it's not scandal. It's just like, you know what? Like it's just easier not to go to church. It's sort of the folks that left during COVID it's like, oh, I'm going to watch online and then I'm not going to return to church. It's just like that spiritual drift. So those are some themes I'm seeing, you know, right here in D.C. and I've seen as a pattern and talking to other church leaders.
- [09:09]
Rich
Yeah. That I'd love to kind of narrow in a little bit there on this tension between spiritual drift. Like it's the, you know, I'd rather watch football or whatever, you know, complacency. And then actually folks that are wrestling honestly that are asking questions and are, are struggling. What have you seen? How do you discern that? How does that, how does that work itself out? What have you learned about the difference between people who are in these kind of two categories?
- [09:40]
Aaron Graham
Yeah, I talk a lot about the difference between doubt, deconstruction and denial. And I think it's helpful to have these kind of three categories because it's easy to just put everybody in the same category when they're not dealing with the same thing. And so to doubt is to lack confidence, to be unsure about something. And that's like part of what it means to be human, to have questions. Like, we want to have churches where like youth and young adults can ask honest questions about human suffering and about questions they have theologically like that you want people to be curious. And it says in the book of Jude that we need to be merciful to those who doubt. And so we see that modeled in Jesus. But he ultimately calls us beyond our doubt like he does. He doesn't call us to like center our doubt. He calls us to walk by faith, not by doubt. And so we have to create space for that. But you know, if a church is like, you know, its mission statement is to just welcome doubters and then you center that, that's actually not a very forward facing thing. And so we need to create space for doubt. And sometimes people, that's just what they're having, they're just having questions. I think deconstruction is a step beyond doubt. And deconstruction is like when you are in the process of dismantling your beliefs. And sometimes there's some beliefs that need to be dismantled because there's like, you grew up in a church that had like really messed up theology. Like you grew up in a cult or something like that. And you're like, I've got to deconstruct this. Or like, I experienced spiritual manipulation and I thought this is what it meant to honor a leader. Or I experienced abuse in some way. And so you have to kind of deconstruct that. The problem is a lot of people are deconstructing outside of the context of community or biblical community. And so they're doing so in isolation. And the enemy loves that. Like, the enemy loves to isolate us. And so if you're going to deconstruct something unhealthy, you have to reconstruct. And the problem is there's been a lot of deconstruction without reconstructing. So, so there's doubt, there's deconstruction, and then unhealthy deconstruction can lead to denial. Right? This is Judas, right? This is like, I will not go with you. Like, right? And so denial is like, is more active where dialed is more passive. Denial can be more, more active. And I think it's very dangerous. This is Jude saying, snatch them from the fire. You know, this is life or death type of thing.
- [11:58]
Rich
So let's. Can we focus in a bit on the doubt piece for a second? What does that look like? For you as a leader, like, what are some ways that we can offer space for people who are, who do have legit doubts? And you know, I, I get that there's this tension of like, we don't want to create. Just like, let's all get around and talk about what we don't know. But like, how, how, how can we do that? Or how are you doing that at District? What's that look like for you guys?
- [12:26]
Aaron Graham
We do a series every summer called this Is My Story, where I don't preach for two weeks and we hear 10 minute testimonies from people in our church. So three 10 minute testimonies each week. And we select people in our church and then we coach them around how to prepare for it. And they share a question, their biggest question, their biggest doubt, their biggest struggle, and how they've moved through that and how it's actually enabled them to deepen their faith and not to deconstruct their faith. So it's testimony time. But it's structured around how they've moved through doubt. Because I think our biggest questions for me as a child, it was, why do kids die of preventable causes? Like, it shapes so much of your calling if you process it in a healthy way. And so, yeah, so this is my story. And that's just been really helpful. It gives the pastor a break. Sometimes I'm doing it when I'm on vacation, so it allows me to step out, but it also allows leaders. And so what it does in terms of formation in the congregation is we're actually moving the date this year to be when most newcomers come at the end of August because it's been so popular with newcomers because they're like, oh, I see myself in this church. Like, oh, you have questions too. I have questions. But once again, it's not like I'm centering that doubt or that question at the end of the day. So that's one thing practically we've done.
- [13:49]
Rich
That's cool. I love that. And there was a time in the generation before me where, yeah, it was like, you don't acknowledge any of that. Right? It's like, you don't, you can't ask any of those questions because that, that is. It's like just asking the question is gonna. It's like something bad's gonna happen. I worked for a long time for a lead pastor that did open forum Q and A after every single message. So every single message he would say, hey, like, is there anything, you have any questions about anything I said or left unsaid and similarly, it, it created a culture where people kept you honest. As a preacher, I hated it. When I spoke, I was like, gosh, because you like any question. But it did create a culture where like, hey, it's okay to ask, right? It's okay to, to explore. Yeah, for sure.
- [14:34]
Aaron Graham
That's great.
- [14:35]
Rich
That's interesting.
- [14:35]
Aaron Graham
I love it.
- [14:37]
Rich
So getting back to this whole idea, you know, doubt, discernment, denial, at some point, you know, you've started to see some patterns in the culture around us, some recurring themes that you've seen. And actually you package these a book that I want to make sure people, I actually think could be a really helpful tool for folks. But. And so, no, I'm not just trying to sell books, but I would, I do think it's a helpful thing. Help us talk through. So tell us about the book and how is it set up? What is the framework for it?
- [15:05]
Aaron Graham
Yeah, so the new book's called Unshakable Faith. How to Stand Firm in a Culture of Lies. And for me, it really came about from trying to see this pattern of so many people slowly drifting from their faith and saying, how do we prevent this as pastors? Like, if we don't disciple our people, the world gladly will. And in some ways they're doing, the world's doing a better job of discipling our people. And so what are these, like, subtle lies that people are believing that is causing people to, you know, not lean into their faith? And I've just seen it like in the urban center here, I've just seen so many well intentioned, highly educated, sometimes and sincere people just drift. And so they're no longer going to church, they're not raising their kids in the faith. And so, yeah, I've just seen it over and over. And so I wrote this book in response to that. And honestly, in so many ways, it's a critique of what I call progressive Christianity. And I mean that theologically, not politically, but it's when someone reinterprets scripture, the historic teachings of scripture, to make it more comfortable or palatable to the current culture, it's like emphasizing relevance over faithfulness. And so what I've seen so often over and over is that, oh, this isn't just a conversation around human sexuality or progressive Christianity. Progressive Christianity is becoming a layover to post Christianity for so many people. And so I just began to say, okay, is this new thing? Oh, it's actually not new. It's not in the last like 20 years, this has been happening for like 500 years since the enlightenment where, you know, progressive Christians were or what, however they're labeled, end up denying the miraculous and then denying at the core the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is like the very core of our faith. I was like, this isn't just a conversation around human sexuality, which is where it started with the newcomer. This is, you know, or with the leader, even in the church. This is about something much more deep. And so that's when I just began to pray in this and, and just say, what are the patterns that I'm seeing? What are these lies that people are often like, well meaning, but believing? And how is that compromising our ability to call people to faith but also help make disciples?
- [17:27]
Rich
So is there, I think, friends, I had a chance to sneak peek at this book and I think it could be a great resource for many of our churches. It could be a great kind of small group discussion, a great leadership book. I think it could be a fantastic thing for us to do with our leadership team together wrestling through these issues. So we're not going to be able to cover all of it, but what would you say maybe one of these pernicious, subtle lies that you see is prevailing? It pops up all the time. Help us unpack one of those.
- [18:02]
Aaron Graham
Yeah, sure. So one of them I talk about is the selective Christian, the person who edits scripture to fit preferences rather than engaging in the whole word of God. And you know, Jim Wallace, who is a well known social justice advocate in the 70s when he was at Trinity Evangelical Seminary, got together with some friends and they went through the Bible and they cut up every reference in the Bible to the poor or to the widow, the orphan. And there's like 2,000 verses in the Bible about, about that. And he would go around and he'd hold up a Bible and he'd say, this is the Bible we have in America. It's a Bible full of holes because we've neglected the call to justice and the call to care for the poor. Well, I'm seeing that same thing happen in this next generation around some other core doctrine, around human depravity, around human sexuality, around gender and marriage and these other things that we don't want to talk about. But what's really at stake in so many ways is the authority of scripture. And so we pick and choose what parts we want to believe. And then we strip the gospel of its saving power because we've only chosen to believe the parts that are the most acceptable to us and our friends in this cultural moment. That's just a really dangerous way to not be formed in our faith.
- [19:27]
Rich
Yeah. And, you know, I think we've, you can see that in how, you know, we handle scripture. I think one of the dangers that we face as preachers, we did a study where we looked at common passages that people were using over a couple years in churches. And we found that, you know, it's not surprising, right? People come back to like the same passages time and time again. Because I think we are trying to, even if it's not, if it's not a, like a willful decision, we just kind of drift in that direction of like, hey, well, I'm just not going to talk about that because I just am not sure what to say. How do you fight this in yourself, in the church around you? Because, you know, you are a winsome leader. You're a church full of grace. You're trying to actually interact with the culture. You're not running for the hills. You're not like, you know, putting your head in the sand kind of thing. How, how do you, how does not being a selective Christian work itself out in, in your world?
- [20:27]
Aaron Graham
Yeah. So one of the things I'm trying to really emphasize in our church is like, Bible engagement. And it seems like so one on one, but it's like, guys, we got to read our Bibles.
- [20:36]
Rich
Yeah, no, absolutely.
- [20:38]
Aaron Graham
It's like, you know, Bible in a year kind of plans, getting as many groups together. I lead a group on Bible in a year, and it's like, let's read the whole Bible and let's like struggle with these passages and talking about it and like, let's see the power of the Word of God. And so, you know, there's a lot of research that shows that people who engage with the Bible have like, measurable differences in their life. And one of the things is that when you actually engage in, not in reading the Bible, but actually submitting yourself to it, you become both more liberal and conservative because you become more morally conservative and you become more socially liberal, like in caring for the needs of others. And so you just break out of these categories. And for somebody like you in Canada that's not in the U.S. like, it's got kind of crazy how we get polarized in the US over certain things that, that global Christians don't get as polarized on in some ways. And so I think that's one of the things that I've seen a lot of fruit in is like, hey, we're going to be a church that's about the word of God. We're going to teach the word of God, we're going to. We're going to sit under its authority even when it's uncomfortable. And I find even in very Progressive cities like D.C. people hunger for biblical teaching. Even if they. They don't agree with it all, they'll come listen to it because they're looking for something that's different than what they're hearing everywhere else, where it's like, affirm, affirm, affirm. Everything. It's like, I want to be called to something higher, something that's bigger than me, that's more historic than me. So as it relates to being a selective Christian, I think just simple Bible engagement and really putting effort in that has. Has borne a lot of fruit.
- [22:18]
Rich
Yeah, that's cool. I know my lead pastor has been saying the same thing for the last few years, and I would, I would echo this. I think this has been. This is a very unique season where I think in general, the culture is leaning in and asking the question, what is it about this? And, you know, Jeff, my lead pastor, makes the joke. He's like this. You see this rippling in all parts of culture. There's, you know, one of the outcomes of the fact that things are so kind of changing all the time. We're. We're obsessed with the, you know, the latest trend or whatever is people want things that have been true for a long time. They're.
- [22:52]
Aaron Graham
And it's.
- [22:53]
Rich
Why are people putting chickens in their backyards? And what is it with all the sourdough? Like, why does that stuff. Why is that resonating? It's. There's a connection to this, you know, similar kind of cultural issue that we're saying here with scripture, where it's like, I'm intrigued by the Bible. I want to learn about that because that's something. We've been telling each other these stories for thousands of years. And how does that apply to our lives? Let's not miss that moment. Church leaders, and not actually give them what they're. What they're looking for. So, yeah, that's absolutely.
- [23:23]
Aaron Graham
I think the devil really overplayed his hand as it relates to secular culture, meaning secular culture, meaning, like, has defined itself in opposition to the church with a message of the more personal freedom you have, the more autonomy you have, the more. The happier you'll be. And Gen Z is like, waking up and being like, yeah, that's not true. No, this is not fulfilling. I want something more historic and rooted. And that's, I think, one of the things that's leading a lot of people to Come into the church right now in this generation, they're just saying, I'm hungry for God. And I don't think that just having more freedom and flexibility is the answer. It's like somebody just gave their life to Jesus on Sunday. Came to the newcomers dinner last night and he's like, what do I need to do next? I gave it to him hard. I was like, it's not just about praying to prayer. You prayed that praise the Lord and you're going to get baptized and you're doing a rooted group and all this. But it's like, what in your life, in your relationships, in your work, like, you need to cut some things off, like repentance, like change directions. And he's like, yeah, like, tell me more. You know, he's like leaning like, I think people want to be led, like in love, but they want to be led. It's not just like, choose your own adventure. That's not helping this generation.
- [24:33]
Rich
Yeah, that's so true. I would echo that. You know, it does feel like we've come to the end of secular humanism. And I remember a time when I first started ministry. I was like, well, it sure seems that that's working. Like, it's, it's just so dominant. But it feels like there's this collective, like, well, that didn't work. So what was that? What's another lie that we. Again, we're not going to get to all of them. So don't worry, friends, you know, you're going to have to read the book. But what's another one that. That has bubbled up that's been, you know, particularly intriguing as you've interacted with people around it.
- [25:00]
Aaron Graham
Yeah, there's. There's so many different ones, but I think one of them is the divisive influencer. This is the seventh lie. So I kind of take it to the end of the book here. But the divisive influencer is really growing right now. It's somebody who kind of mirrors cancel culture instead of practicing radical forgiveness and grace. And so we see a lot of political polarization right now. We feel it in our families, we feel it in our churches where it's like, you're coming for a holiday meal. And it's like, it's this tension underneath. We feel it in life groups and it's like, how do we navigate this? And so that's one of the ones that, you know, being in D.C. yeah,
- [25:39]
Rich
that was going to be my follow up. I'm like, wait a second, isn't that the bread and butter of the people you work with. Yes.
- [25:45]
Aaron Graham
And honestly, people, when they come to church, even in dc, they don't want to, like, enter into an echo chamber. They want to be formed. They want to go upstream. They want to hear the word of the Lord. And so I think that one of the things as it relates to this, like, cancel culture. And, like, the solution to that, obviously, is, like, Jesus, it's like, love your enemies, forgive those who persecute you. Like, actually, when you lean into relationships with people who are different, like, that's. That's how you. You grow. And so whenever we're dealing with an issue like, whatever, some issues in the news, and it's like, oh, what should we. What should we include in our prayer? Do we need to talk about that in the sermon? And, you know, you're getting pressure from certain people to do that. One of the things I realized is that if we haven't gone upstream as church leaders and taught our congregation the biblical call around poverty or abortion or immigration or whatever, then when it pops up in the news, we get very reactive. And people interpret that through their political lens. They've already made their mind up. And so some, you know, some pastors are playing on this. And you can kind of grow your church. Like, you'll lose 10%, but grow 40%, because you kind of lean into that predictive, predictable division. But I think that one of the calls of Jesus is like, how do we go upstream? So you can form people to say, hey, we have to engage in poverty. We have to. But two Christians can agree on addressing something like abortion, poverty, justice, and disagree which policy solution will be the best. And so we should have that kind of diversity in our church. That's what's made our nation great, is having that level of diversity. And I think we need to model that out in the church. Not just our racial and ethnic diversity, but I think our political diversity is increasingly important. And it's not to say that each side is, like, morally equivalent on each issue. I think some parties are way better on certain issues than others. But I think we have to really lean into this forgiveness and not lean into this radical, divisive influencer, even though that kind of posture may be rewarded online. And this next generation is. I think a high percentage of them want to be influencers online. So there's a great temptation to kind of lean into that. But it's like, what does Jesus teach us around that?
- [28:10]
Rich
Right. Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. I think you're calling out something that we definitely see and there's even this kind of return of particularly young men back to church. There's some of that that I'm not sure is, is actually positive where it's leaning towards. It is a very politically charged kind of faith that to me doesn't read Jesus or it's just one aspect maybe of Jesus. So that's interesting you're calling that out for sure. So off roading a little bit on a similar topic, one of the things I find fascinating about you, about the church, about district, is there was like this false dichotomy that's set up in a lot of churches. It's like, hey, you can either be a church that is, has a high value on scripture, which you clearly do, or you can be a church that is engaged in issues of development and justice in the world around you. You can't do both of those. You can't actually make a difference in the community around you, be care about the poor, care about those things, and also have a high view of scripture. I'm not saying that's true. I'm saying there seems to be this popular notion out there. Your church seems to be doing both, trying to do both. Am I reading that correctly? Help me understand how, how you see those interacting with each other.
- [29:36]
Aaron Graham
Yeah, I've always been known the last like 20 years in ministry as the justice guy, the one calling the church to engage in justice. And then I looked up around and saw so many of my justice friends had deconstructed their faith, were no longer pastoring churches, and their kids weren't following Jesus. And I was like, something's wrong because it's like, oh, we're trying to care for the poor, but now we've lost our faith in the process. And the kids that we're raising, we have no message for them other than just be tolerant and inclusive. Christians like, being tolerant and inclusive and loving is a great value. Jesus is the most loving person, but he called people to repentance and he called people to the, to the Father. And so I think that that's always just been a big value of ours, is like the authority of scripture and the lordship of Christ. And I think that leads to justice. And so I think it's just being willing to stand alone. I've lost a lot of friendships over this, not just friendship. It's not like I don't talk to somebody, but just like colleagues in ministry because there's like, theologically like you just believe something that's different. Like you've stepped outside of biblical orthodoxy. So I think we have to be, be willing to, to stand alone. And I think we're on the winning side. I think Jesus and justice, I think both those things go together. So I don't think we're crazy, but it is hard to hold them together when the political narratives are so forming and deceptive. And so it's hard. It's hard for me. I got a lot of flak for my theological positions in this city, but I think, you know, we got to be willing to stand alone.
- [31:12]
Rich
Yeah, Very cool. Well, I want to. I think this could be a great book. As you were writing it, what were kind of, what were you picturing? Your kind of ideal situation where it would land? Obviously you want lots of people to read it, but to me, I saw, I was like, when I. The sneak peek I looked into, I was like, man, this could be a great, I think a really good discussion starter in a leadership team. Are there other environments you think, hey, man, this could be really a great place to, you know, to use this resource?
- [31:39]
Aaron Graham
Yeah, the, the, the main person I'm writing to, and I hope a lot of people read it, but the main person is like a 23 year old that graduates from college that has at least a nominal Christian faith. They have the intention to join a church when they move to the city and land their first job, but they are totally at risk of abandoning their faith unless they make some very clear decisions and are part of a church that has made some really clear decisions around. We're not going to believe these lies. We're going to call them out and we're going to intentionally disciple you away from being discipled by secular culture and disciple you around the word of God. That's my hope. You know, if anybody that's deconstructed comes back to faith, praise the Lord. Hallelujah.
- [32:24]
Rich
Right.
- [32:24]
Aaron Graham
But I'm actually trying to do a prevention so that all the people who are coming to faith right now in this revival that it falls on good ground because we have such a discipleship culture in our churches that is able to name and discern first and then name these lies and to help this next generation stand firm in the gospel. And so that's the subtitle of the book is how to Stand Firm in a Culture of Lies. And for so long we were trained in the church as church leaders to evangelize people who are like spiritually kind of curious and open, like kind of the seeker sensitive movement. That's how like international. I grew up as a missionary kid, so it's like we were trained to like share the gospel with people who like just needed to hear that there's one God and that he loves you and that you can have a relationship with him. But now we're trying to evangelize a post Christian culture, which you know a lot about in Canada and we're learning more about here in North America. And that culture actually is not just like ambivalent towards Christianity, it's actually anti Christian faith. They're trying to evangelize us. And so if we just try to take the same approach where we're just loving and let me give them a hug, see if they hug back, they're actually winning. And so it's like, how do we have a plan to say, you know what, we're going to love the world, we're going to be in the world, but not of the world. But it's a whole different. I can use that word on this, the word here on this church leaders pod. It's a whole different missiology around how to engage in mission. And so, yeah, so I'm hoping that we reach the 20 something and I'm hoping that people talk about this, we wrote this and we have a small group video curriculum coming out as well because we really want pastors who say, I want this culture in my church to be able to have people do it in groups, discuss it and be able to make these commitments before it becomes an even greater problem in our churches.
- [34:20]
Rich
Yeah, that's good. That's a really vivid picture of like you say the 23 year old who's moving to the city, you know, who has some faith but is, is maybe at risk. I think is a, is a, is a vivid picture for all of us. And I would share. You didn't actually say it this way, but I, I would share some concern with the swell towards faith. I don't. Who am I like the. Obviously it's an amazing thing that's going on. Lots of people are taking steps toward Jesus.
- [34:43]
Aaron Graham
This.
- [34:43]
Rich
I'm not going to be the guy that's like, that's bad. But I would say I'm concerned that we are a good steward of this moment. That it's like, man, I have been waiting my entire ministry career for this to happen. And now, gosh, let's not drop the ball. And I think your book could be a part of helping us think through and helping leaders and individuals think through this. So the name of the book is Unshakable Faith. And again, you said that how to, how to stand firm in a culture of lies. Where can people look at that? There's a shot of it. There's got a beautiful front on it. The work. I'm assuming we can get it at Amazon. Are there other places we should go to get copies of this?
- [35:22]
Aaron Graham
Everywhere books are sold. So if you go to Aaron Graham, dc.com just my name, Aaron Graham, DC, double meaning for District Church and DC the City. Aaron Grahamdc.com and then you'll see links to all the retailers on there, including Amazon, but all the different retailers, Christian book, books, a million Barnes and Noble, all that. And so yeah, you can grab a copy there and we'd love to hear from you as well. You have a place where you can contact me on there.
- [35:51]
Rich
Oh, that's great. Perfect. We'll put links to all of that in the show. Notes and friends. Like I say, if you're a longtime listener, we don't actually typically have a lot of authors on. But I wanted to have Aaron on because I do think this has. Is particularly poignant for us. I think in. In today's culture. And I think it could be a thing that could really help your team, help, you know, people at your church. I think could be a really great resource for that. As we wrap up today's episode, any kind of final words you'd have for a church leader that's wrestling in. That's wrestling with these issues today is. Is maybe feeling some of this tension around, you know, feeling compromise at the door kind of thing. Help us. Help us as we wrap up today.
- [36:28]
Aaron Graham
Yeah, well, first off, just thanks for having me on and having me back, you know, as a repeat guest. That's awesome. I love what you're doing. Like I said, I learned so much from you. So practical stuff is so great to hear all the different speakers that come on and leaders. But yeah, no, I think the message that I want leader church leaders to hear is that if you don't run to this problem around what's happening in our culture and how it's affecting discipleship, this problem will get worse. And I think that one of the challenges for me being in the belly of the beast in the heart of dc, I'm not just like dc, I'm in the heart with all these national leaders, very educated people, is that it's sort of like a signal, kind of like downtown New York City is as well. It's like a signal of where culture is going. And so if you don't lean towards this conversation and learn, you this problem will only grow in your church. And so while it might be uncomfortable for some of you based on, like, if you're like me and you're wired as like a harmony person. Like, I don't want to have disagreements on my staff or with my board or in my family conversation. Like, it will only get bigger and worse. So lean in and take advantage of resources from people who are writing about this, who have thought about it and, and don't be alone in this. Don't try to be isolated in this conversation because there's a lot of people. Even though you might feel alone where you're pastoring or where you're leading, there's a lot of people who feel the same way you are. And so, so get connected in with them. So that's, that's what I'd say.
- [38:05]
Rich
That's great. Thanks so much. Aaron. Give us that website again where we want to send people to if they want to connect more directly with you or with the church.
- [38:12]
Aaron Graham
Yeah, just aarangramdc.com and that'll also link to our church website, districtchurch.org and we'd love to have people visit us when you're in D.C. because like you said, D.C. is a fun city. It's one of the best cities to 250th anniversary of DC. Lots of celebrations happening this year. So yes, come in and see us.
- [38:30]
Rich
It'll be a big year. That's great. Thanks so much. Appreciate being here today, sir. And we'll have you back on sometime soon. Thanks for coming.
- [38:36]
Aaron Graham
Awesome. Thanks, Rich.
- [38:37]
Unseminary Podcast Host
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