When Your Church Runs Out of Room: Smart Next Steps Before You Build with Jeff Beachum & Curt Banter

Summary

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unSeminary Podcast Summary

Episode: When Your Church Runs Out of Room: Smart Next Steps Before You Build
Host: Rich Birch
Guests: Jeff Beachum (Portable Church Industries), Kurt Banter (Portable Church Industries)
Date: February 19, 2026

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Overview

This episode dives into the issues and decisions churches face when they are maxing out their current physical spaces and must decide how to continue growing. Rich Birch is joined by Jeff Beachum and Kurt Banter from Portable Church Industries (PCI) to discuss common mistakes, strategic approaches to space constraints, and why going portable can be a strategic interim or even long-term solution before investing in permanent facilities. The conversation balances practical advice and real-life stories with candid talk about the mental, volunteer, and logistical hurdles of church expansion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is a Portable Church and What Does PCI Do?

• Definition & Scope ([03:07]–[04:28])
  • Kurt Banter explains, “We build portable systems to help churches function in rented spaces... It’s production, kids, lobby, the whole thing. It’s the experience on a Sunday morning in a rented venue.”
  • Jeff Beachum details that PCI handles everything except “the pastor, the people, and the place”—from production equipment to signage, children’s environments, and even down to communion wafers and baby diapers.

2. When Churches Hit Capacity: The Threshold & Emotional Impact

• Capacity Challenges ([04:57]–[06:29])
  • Churches start to worry about lost momentum and people leaving when they hit 70-80% capacity.
  • Practical questions arise: Can we add services? Expand? Move some ministries off-site?
  • Jeff: “We do this thing I like to call ‘chasing capacity.’ Once you’re blessed with growth, you’re looking for that elusive extra seat.”

3. Strategies: On-Site vs. Off-Site Solutions

• On-Site: Adding services, expanding spaces, optimizing children’s ministry and parking
• Off-Site:
  • Finding new land and constructing a building (expensive, slow)
  • Renovating commercial properties
  • Mergers with other churches
  • Going portable—a flexible, quicker route ([06:29]–[08:19])

4. Common Mistakes Churches Make in Growth Moments

• Kurt's Perspective ([08:50]–[09:51]):
  • Leaders often make quick, costly, concrete decisions (like immediately adding services or planning a building) without considering the long-term impact on staff, finances, and future pivots.
  • “What you’re building now lays the foundation for so many other steps down the road. It’s important to step back... make choices about staff, capital spending, before you’re stuck with band-aid solutions.”

5. The Consequences of Waiting Too Long

• Momentum at Risk ([10:33]–[12:48]):
  • Delaying expansion can be detrimental—people stop inviting friends if there’s nowhere to sit, and parents dislike overflow rooms or alternative spaces.
  • Jeff shares a personal story: “There was a sign: ‘No more seats in the sanctuary.’ What if that was the day [someone wanted to visit]?... Once you let people know it’s not important enough to keep seats open, that has a negative twist to the momentum piece.”

6. Rethinking Permanent Spaces: The Value of Interim Steps

• Why Not Jump to Permanent? ([14:04]–[15:32])
  • Permanent is great, but takes years and a lot of money.
  • Portable setups can be launched in 10-12 weeks and allow the church to keep growing without the risk or delay.
  • Jeff: Case study of a church in FL that expected 2 years in a portable space but stayed 4, grew immensely, and then seamlessly moved into a permanent home.

7. Surprising Benefits of Going Portable First

• Unexpected Upsides ([17:11]–[19:35]):
  • Strengthens volunteer culture as people rally around the logistical challenge.
  • Fosters deep ties with the community—as locals see the church making an impact before a permanent facility is built.
  • Reaching new people starts immediately rather than waiting years for a building.

8. Designing for Portability: The PCI Process

• Customization & Consulting ([21:21]–[26:44]):

  • PCI doesn’t offer one-size-fits-all kits; every system is custom based on the church’s philosophy, priorities, timeline, and budget.
  • The design process includes deep-dive consultations with all ministries and key staff, ensuring their unique DNA is reflected in the portable solution.

  “If there’s ten things that are important, don’t assume I know what they are. Every system has to be around what is the core values of that team.”
  —Kurt Banter [22:30]

• Balancing Quality and Practicality:

  • Portable doesn’t mean cheap. “People go and pay lots of money to see concerts in big venues, and that’s all portable too!” —Kurt Banter [36:00]

9. Volunteers: Keeping the Engine Running

• Volunteer Systems ([29:57]–[33:10]):

  • PCI designs with volunteers in mind—each piece has a home, every case and trailer is labeled and organized for straightforward setup/teardown.
  • Keeps all ages engaged—even kids and retirees feel they can contribute.
  • Transition to permanent facilities requires intentionality to retain these vital volunteers.

  "They find a home there, they find connection there. It’s not just about the serving, it’s also about the community.”
  —Kurt Banter [32:30]

10. Addressing Skepticism and Misconceptions about Portability

• Not Temporary or Low-Quality ([35:28]–[37:09]):
  • DIY setups often look and feel ‘cheap’ because they’re reactionary or unplanned.
  • With intentional design, portable environments can feel as high quality and on-brand as permanent ones.

11. Stewardship & Reusability of Portable Systems

• Maximizing Investment ([40:00]–[41:05]):
  • Portable systems are transferable; if a site closes, equipment can be fitted to the next site, maximizing stewardship.
  • PCI has worked with over 4,000 churches, offering expertise for almost any scenario.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On why to act before it’s “perfect”:

  “Why would we have waited? Why would we have put this off for four years? Look what happened in the four years we were in this environment.”
  —Jeff Beachum [15:36]

• On volunteer culture:

  “The staff team’s value—even though they're not portable anymore—is, ‘we push cases.’ It’s this idea that we’re all in. It’s foundational to the culture.”
  —Rich Birch [19:35]

• On DIY vs. intentional portable:

  “Sometimes people go out and grab this and that, and now you’ve got stuff in a trailer... TVs in cardboard boxes five, six years in. That’s where the ‘cheap’ comes from.”
  —Kurt Banter [36:00]

• On stewardship:

  “You talk about stewardship—if you launch a portable campus and then move, you take the portable system to the next place. You can’t do that with a building.”
  —Rich Birch [40:00]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• What is Portable Church? – [03:07]
• When Churches Hit Capacity – Chasing Capacity – [04:57]
• On-site vs. Off-site Options – [06:29]
• Mistakes in Growth Moments – [08:50]
• The Dangers of Waiting Too Long – [10:33]
• Why Not Go Straight to Permanent? – [14:04]
• Benefits of Portable First – [17:11]
• The Consultation & Custom Design Process – [21:21]
• Balancing Tech ‘Bells and Whistles’ With Volunteer Simplicity – [27:38]
• Building Sustainable Volunteer Systems – [29:57]
• Addressing “Portable is Cheap” Misconceptions – [35:28]
• Leveraging Systems Across Multiple Sites – [40:00]
• Action Steps for Leaders Facing Capacity Now – [42:45]
• Final Advice for Senior Leaders – [44:52]

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Actionable Takeaways

• Don’t Wait for the Problem to Pass: Proactively plan for space and volunteer needs. Start exploring your options before you hit capacity.
• Portable is Professional: With the right partners, a portable setup can be as effective, on-brand, and welcoming as a permanent building.
• Invest in Volunteers: Design for volunteer engagement and ease—especially for repetitive setup and teardown jobs.
• Maximize Stewardship: Portable investments are re-deployable, making them a wise use of resources as you expand.
• Start the Conversation Early: Call experts for consultation long before you desperately need a solution; knowledge now will serve you well later.

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For More Information

• Portable Church Industries: portablechurch.com
• Connect with Jeff Beachum: portablechurch.com/jeff

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Host’s Closing Thought:
"It's the stuff you wish they taught in seminary—practical, actionable next steps for churches in rapid growth. Don't try to engineer it alone—learn from thousands who've gone before."

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

the Unseminary Podcast, the place where church leaders get practical insights, tips and strategies for ministry. Today, you're stepping into something bigger than just a conversation. This podcast is part of a bold mission to help 100 churches grow by 1,000 people. Whether you're dreaming of increasing your impact in your community, empowering your team, or reaching more people with the message of Jesus, you're in the right place. We're here to bring you the stuff you wish they taught in seminary, ideas and tools you can put into action this week to see transformation in your ministry. Let's dive in.

[A]

Hey friends, welcome to the Unseminary Podcast. Super glad that you've decided to tune in today and you are going to be rewarded for that. We've got a really important conversation I know for many churches that are listening. In particular, if your church is growing and you're thinking about the future and you see some constraints around you, we want to help release some of those constraints today. And I've asked good friends Kurt Banter and Jeff Beacham from Portable Church Industries to come and be on the call with us today because they've got some stuff that I know can help so many of us. If you do not know portable church, they help churches thrive in portable venues. For more than 25 years, portable church has helped literally thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that Fill that fit each budget, vision, and venue. They really are amazing people. And I'm so glad to have you on the show today. Kurt and Jeff, welcome. So glad you're here.

[C]

Great to be here.

[D]

Yeah, glad to be here.

[A]

Why don't we start with Kurt? Tell us the kind of portable church, you know, summary. You bump into someone and they ask you where you work, and you're like, I'm CEO of portable church. What. What is that?

[C]

Yes, yes, that's a popular airport question. That. That is a very. What is that exactly? And Right.

[A]

Is that on? What is it like, exactly?

[C]

I always. I always tell people, like, well, we built. We build portable systems to help churches function in kind of rented spaces is, you know, the deal. And it's. It's production, it's kids, it's lobby, it's the whole thing. It's the experience on a Sunday morning in a rented venue.

[A]

Yeah, that's fantastic. And Jeff, give us a sense of the scope of both the services and kind of solutions that PCI provides. Like, when you say you help that, what does that mean? Is this just like a bunch of ideas or what do you actually do?

[D]

So portable church provides absolutely everything that a church needs in order to do church the way they do at their home campus. Except we don't provide the pastor and the people and the place, But, I mean, we do everything else from, like Kurt said, production, Everything you need to do, children's environments, everything you need to get people on the campus with wayfinding greeting them. Coffee. Write down if we don't recommend it, but right down to the communion wafer and the baby diaper, we can do it.

[A]

All right. Yeah, it's incredible. Well, today we want to frame the conversation for churches that are listening around in that are particularly growing and are thinking about the future and maybe are coming up against some capacity issues. Jeff, when a church starts to approach, say, let's picture a church, maybe they're approaching 70, 80% of their weekend capacity, what kind of questions do you hear those leaders wrestling with? What are they thinking about as they're thinking about, what do we do next?

[D]

Well, luckily, I've run into some amazing executive leaders that carry the vision and the execution of a church. And those are usually the two primary people or positions. And there might be multiple people involved in it, but those are the two positions that really are looking in their crystal ball and trying to say, all right, based on the seats we're filling, the parking lot the way it is, the corridors that are jammed, the children's Ministry, how high a pitch our volunteers are screaming, we need to be thinking down the road about what are the solutions? And those people, typically those good leaders are asking questions about, all right, what can we do on site? And eventually, if this keeps going, and we'd love to momentum to keep going, what are some off site solutions? And so that's what we like to help take leaders through, is even if they don't use it, the more they know, the better they're going to be.

[A]

And what, when you think of the questions that they're wrestling about kind of the on site, off site question, what would be some of those things that, why would they be at that venture? Like, what, what is it about, you know, these, this kind of threshold of 70, 80% that starts pushing them to be like, ooh, maybe it's like, what are the pain points that they start feeling that are like, okay, that we've got to start thinking about something, you know, different down the road.

[D]

Well, this, we do this thing, I like to call it chasing capacity. Because once a church opens its doors and if they're blessed by God and they're doing all the things that they should be doing, they will forever be looking for that elusive extra seat so that people can hear the gospel. Well, when they get into that position, they immediately begin to think, we only have so many seats, it's a finite number, and we're growing, so how do we get more? And on site solutions might include stacking services, adding another third, fourth service. It could mean expanding the footprint of the whole building that you're in. It could be moving from a smaller room to a bigger room. It could be a variety of solutions on site to help all those situations. And, and there's a lot to consider when it comes to children's space, worship space, getting people in and out between services and parking and all of those things. Eventually someone has to be looking at what the off site locations might be. And, and to be honest with you, that is a finite thing. There's only, you can find a green piece of grass and build a brand new building, which takes a lot of money, a lot of time. There's commercial properties that you can go into now and build them out, which is always fun and exciting and good, good solutions. Mergers is popping up and then portability. Those really are the only four that are out there for a church to consider going off site for another site or to launch a new plant.

[A]

Cool. So, Kurt, from when we think about again, this church, they're, you know, they're reaching 70 80% capacity. They got full everywhere. Like, they look around and it's like not enough seats, not enough kids space, not enough parking. From a design and systems perspective, kind of the running side. What often do you think that we miss out at that moment in a church life? Like questions we're not asking or maybe things we misunderstand about that because you guys see this all the time. These are the people you work with all day long. What are the things that we, we maybe misunderstood.

[C]

Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of people are trying to, they don't want to lose momentum, they don't want to lose people. They, they start especially, I think people kind of a knee jerk sometimes that it's like, oh, you know, people are going to come in the door, I can't find a place to sit. They're going to, you know, they're going to. People are going to split. And so they're really nervous about that. So people will tend to do the things that are maybe more black and white and make choices that feel concrete. Like I could build a thing, or I could add a service, or I could do different things that will cost money and maybe not as much in terms of personnel. But I think sometimes the tricky part is, is that the strategy is really key because what you're building now is going to lay the foundation for so many other steps down the road. So it is important to really kind of step back for a minute and make some choices about, you know, what that means for your staff, what that means for long term capital spending or whatever it may be before you kind of just leap into those decisions and then you're stuck with things that maybe don't grow so well or are just band aid solutions.

[A]

Yeah. Trying to make the long term, that's hard. In the middle of the chaos of it, to step back and say, hey, what is the best decision here? Even though I've got, you know, I've got problems right now, what's the best decision for us to make at this, for this next step? Jeff, what happens if we're in this again thinking of about this same kind of church, if we wait too long, if we. Because I've actually seen this in churches where I think it's like, it's like we don't have faith that what's happening now is going to continue. And we think, well, maybe, maybe next fall all these people won't come back. Now, we would never say that, but. And then we wait and we hesitate for a year or two. What's some of the risk there that we should be thinking about.

[D]

Well, it is a scary thing to see God moving and being amazed at what's happening in front of you and really taking that and getting a gut feeling, the right gut feeling to say God is doing something here and we just need to be able to provide ways for him to keep filling seats. And so momentum is very, a tricky thing and you need to be able to keep the momentum going, keep people encouraged. And, and if you don't, I'll just share one story. Saddle Church. I'll just tell you my church. I was at my church. I love my church. It's a great church. And got there at Easter time. Got there early because we knew better. And I, I'm old. So I went out to the bathroom and I came back in and as I was coming back in, the doors were closed and there was a sign there that struck me big time. And it said, no more seats in the sanctuary. And it pointed to another place where they could go, well, nobody wants to sit in the second space, no matter what it looks like. And that no more seats available. What if that was the day, you know. And so momentum, you need to be able to keep it going. It's tenuous and you can hit speed bumps with some of the things that you try to do. But you, you really need to take courage in what God is doing and what the skill set that he's provided for the executive leaders to make these decisions and say, we really believe that God is asking us to do this and make plans for that next thing, whether it's the on site solution or the off site solution. But if nobody is thinking about it and nobody is ready to make those decisions, that's where you hit a wall and you stop growing. And in my mind, I think once you've let people know that that's not important enough to keep seats open so that more people can come in. I think that has a negative twist to the momentum piece.

[A]

Oh, for sure. Yeah. And there's, there's, you know, people won't invite if there's not empty seats. And there's, you know, there's all kinds of interesting, you know, you know, correlations there, for sure. So again, thinking about the same church, actually, literally earlier today I was talking to a church. There are three services on a Sunday morning, adding a fourth. And I was asking the xp, how's it going? And he said, well, we had our. They have like their main parking lot and then they have like the grass parking lot. They're part of the country where you can do the grass parking lot. And he's like, our grass parking lot. This last weekend we're recording this in early January was full. And he's like, we did not anticipate that. And he's like, I know I'm at least four years away from a building program. I'm not sure, you know, what, what to do. And I thought it was kind of funny that I'm talking with you guys today as well. So, Kurt, when you think, when. And so this, this guy was a little freaked out because he's like, man, we got years before we can think about. And he's thinking permanent building. So when churches are thinking about expanding, many of us, we jump right to permanence. Hey, how long is it going to take? You know, if you talk to our friends on that side, there'll be three years to you, lots of money. What have you learned about the danger of kind of skipping this? Maybe some sort of interim in between step. Talk us through, you know, why maybe permanence isn't, shouldn't be our first step when we're thinking about this.

[C]

Yeah, no, I mean, yeah. And I often tell people I like, I love the permanent space. I got no problem with that. But if the momentum is really flying and things are going fast, that, that is, that is a big chunk of why we exist. I mean, we can build a design, you know, you can, it's, it's. You need to find a location, you need to figure out your team. There's a lot of steps that need to happen in here, regardless of whether you're going to be building a building or doing a portable church or whatever it may be. And so this is a, it's a great time to kind of figure out what the next steps are. And it really is, it's an opportunity to, to trial things. And like I say, for us, the big deal is, you know, instead of that four year window, that kind of thing, I was just talking to somebody yesterday and they said, well, you know, how many, how many months would it take? And I said, well, if we're talking in months, we're in good shape. Because sometimes people show up and they're like, hey, we need to do something in 10, 12 weeks. And I'm like, okay, we could probably do that. You know, we can handle. Yeah, I mean, and that's, that's pretty low risk. Like if you can get, get something off the ground in 10 or 12 weeks, you know, that, that gives you opportunity to really take advantage of that and not freak out about what my next step is and figure out how am I going to excavate or get a architect involved or, you know, whatever, permitting all these things, which, you know. Yeah, you'll get to that. But we don't have to really work through a lot of those issues to get something launched fairly quick.

[D]

I, if, if I could jump in.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[D]

That we, we recently did a case study of a church down in Florida and they, it's an amazing church in itself, but they went to a campus and thinking they were only going to have to be there for a couple of years because they had a property across the street. And what happened in that campus was amazing and God blessed them. And after they ended up, instead of being there two years, they ended up being there four years. And as they were getting into their fourth year, we said, you know what, we need to capture this because this is exciting stuff that they could do. They had 6,000 people on a high school campus on an Easter Sunday, which is wacko in my mind. But we went down to capture it. And the theme that kept coming out of the volunteers and the leaders that we interviewed was why would we have waited? Why would we have put this off for four years? Look what happened in the four years that we were in this environment. And now we get to walk across the street in a few months and fill a brand new building. And they did, they walked across and they added a third service immediately. And now just six months later, they're up to five services. So that I like to call it an incubation time in portability where they can grow and they can test their metal, they can test their leadership, they can let the community know, here's what we do and here's who we are. There's a lot of great benefits to being portable first.

[A]

Okay, sticking with you, Jeff, and with that idea, this frame of like, hey, we're gonna, you know, maybe like you're saying, test or take the first step towards a long term plan that's portable. I'm sure you've had a lot of those conversations with churches over the years that have done that. I'm sure some of them were like, maybe hesitant at the beginning. And then they do it and then there's learnings that come back. They, they discover, oh, wow, this, this was different, better. Here were some of the advantages of going portable first. What would be some of those? I hear the idea of like, in that church's example of like, hey, we actually were able to start reaching people rather than waiting for four or five years for A building and then start doing that. We actually start to do that now. That's a great benefit. Any other, that kind of thing that comes back that people are surprised they didn't see on the, on the, on the outset?

[D]

Well, I think people are surprised when they go portable. At least in our experience with portable church, we see churches are able to bolster their volunteer base. Normally you get into experiences like that and volunteers, they do it for a while and then they say, I'm out. But in our case, it's intuitive enough and exciting enough and they see the results that the volunteers usually grow. In that case, another great purpose for going portable first would be to become a part of the community that you're targeting for that next facility that's going to be permanent. If the community sees that you are already a part of them and that you make a difference, they're going to make it easier for you to get the permissions to get everything constructed in a timely basis. They're not going to get in the way because they see the value of having you already in the community. Community. And then there's always, you know, the, the end result is that when people are hurting and you go into a new community and you answer a need and they, they get to go to a place that they're familiar with, the school of ymca, movie theater, whatever that is, in a very comfortable setting that they're already familiar with and learn about Jesus and have hope restored. So there's just a few. But there's a lot of reasons to go portable first.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, that's good. I don't know if I've ever told you this. In fact, I'm pretty sure I haven't. So the church I'm at Now, next year, 2027 will be 2020 year anniversary. And although I'm not on staff anymore, I do this full time. I'm still a part of the church. I love it. And you know, they have like the organizational values and we had one of our campuses was portable for, for 17 years using a portable church industry system. I know you know that, Jeff. And when we, I was like emotional when we were putting those cases away and like unpacking them, it was like, oh my word. Like this was like a big deal. And actually one of the, the staff team's values, I just saw this yesterday I was in the office, is we push cases and you know, they, they internally, even though they're not portable anymore, we push cases. This idea of like, hey, we're all in and it's like this thing they kind of tell each other. And I actually think friends, like, I'm. I try. I'm trying to be like the unbiased. Like, oh, I'm just interviewing these guys. But, like, I love portable church. I love what they're up to. I love how you help churches. And I think your systems, the actual physical systems that you make are like the biggest competitor to you, because I bump into them all the time. You know, a decade later, 15 years later, this stuff is still rolling out there. So, Kurt, when you design a system where, you know, let's say we're headlong in, we've said we're going to do this, we're going to. We're going to go portable, what do you prioritize? Is it experience? Efficiency? Volunteer experience, future growth? Talk us through how that kind of the framework for how your team thinks through the actual design of these things. Because it's. It feels like magic to me that, you know, it all comes together. It's incredible.

[C]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's.

[A]

It.

[C]

It's funny. All those things are important. And I think a lot of what you have to do is when we go. When we go and meet with a church, we talk through all that stuff. We talk. You walk in the building and you get a sense of, okay, what's your identity? What, you know, how does it feel? What is it? What does the environment look like? What's your auditorium experience?

[A]

What's.

[C]

What's your kids, you know, what kind of security do you want? There's just all these environmental questions that we're trying to figure out. And obviously budget plays a part in it as well. But it's sort of a balancing act. You've got to sort of gather all the information in terms of who they are, what. What are they trying to achieve, what's their timeline, you know, and then you're kind of baking all that into one big pie and trying to figure out how to, you know, balance it all together. But, yeah, it's. It's different. And it's funny. I was. I. I tell people. I've told Jeff this story is like, when we sit down with the church, I always tell people, like, if there's 10 things that are important, don't assume that I know what they are, because the 10 things that are really important to this church are not the 10 things that may be important to you. And every single system has to be. We really base it around what is the core values of that team, that

[A]

church, and how so reveal what that looks like. A Little bit for people. Because I do think this is. This might be. This isn't like, pull it off the shelf kind of thing. You're building a custom system for people. What does that kind of consulting process look like? How do you. How's that actually. What's actually look like, Kurt?

[C]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So a lot of times we'll. We'll set up a consultation, we'll go in, and it's a. It's a full day of discovery. Right. So it's a lot of meetings with. It could be the executive pastor, we're meeting with the production team, we're meeting with the kids, people, everybody. People that are making coffee, literally, you know, every part and piece of it. And it's a lot of just listening. It's. It's a lot of me writing notes and figuring out what's important to people. And yeah, we're also talking about Sound boards and PAs and, you know, lighting systems and all that kind of stuff. But it's. It's tons and tons of gathering and information because, yeah, there's. There's not. There's really nothing about the system that's stock. Every single part and piece of it is customized for every client, from some of our most budget systems to systems that are gigantic with lots of trailers and lots going on.

[A]

So.

[C]

But yeah, it's that data, that customization for each client is a gigantic part of what makes us us.

[A]

Yeah. And I've said to folks who have used you, when I knew they were, you know, coming up to a consultation, I'm like, just. It's just mirroring the same thing you're saying. Just tell them everything. Like, don't. Like, don't hold back and, you know, and talk through it all and be really clear. Sometimes people come back and the system's like, well, that's maybe not what we were hoping it would be. Maybe everyone has, like, what is it? Platinum dreams and, you know, they have a smaller budget or whatever.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

But, but, but that's okay. That's a part of your job is to try to help them. Right. Size it and. And all that. Jeff, Kind of on the brand consistencies. Oh, sorry. Jump in. You were going to say something there?

[D]

Yeah, no, I was just gonna follow up with what Kurt said, because I've attended with Kurt a number of the consultations and just walk away amazed at the value of just being. Being able to have Kurt sit in a room with the leaders and how it feeds to the leaders really well. And so some. Some significant things that I'VE seen Kurt do is help them to understand. So what kind of a. What does your worship feel like and what kind of sound system do you use? And there are some churches now that I, I say have the Cadillac of systems and they have the best of everything. And it could be really expensive. And if they're going to multiply sites, that could get expensive over time. And I've seen Kurt be very gracious about. All right, so you have this top line equipment. If you're going to do this two or three times, wouldn't you like to like, jump down to a Buick and have your people get really comfortable up with a Buick? Because to be honest with you, only the professionals recognize the difference between a Buick and Cadillac. All of them still have four wheels and a steering wheel.

[A]

Yeah, that's good.

[D]

And so he'll talk about that. And then another key piece is that depending on who's in the room, when Kurt does the Discovery, he talks about the balance that people really don't get to the worship space, where the high production happens for seven to 10 minutes and they pass a lot of things. So there's a nice balance to the design of the system with the children's space, which I think is probably as, as important or more important than the worship space, because no parent wants to go in and be. Have misgivings about what the space looks like and what's going to happen to the child that they're going to abandon into the care of these people and then walk across the street. And the pastor think for one minute he has their attention enough to preach the most important hour or 4, 20 minutes of, of their life, to change their life. They're thinking about what the heck did I just do to my kids. So I've seen Kurt very graciously help them balance everything out and say, this is how it is important. And it's important that we, we get it into a system so that it can be done with volunteers quickly and they can have success every single time, every single week.

[C]

Love it.

[D]

And they can be excited and, and feel they're as invested in the message of the gospel as the pastor is.

[A]

Well, let's double click on that with you, Kurt. You know, I think there's a lot of executive pastors listening in today. And I have had this experience as an executive pastor. I'm like talking to some tech person and they're like, we need the, using Jeff's thing. We need the Cadillac. Like, the gospel will not go forth without, you know, the Cadillac. And I look at all this. And I'm like, it's numbers and letters on a page. And how do I understand all that? How do you help leadership teams, really? Not either over invest or under invest, particularly on the technology side, because that side, you know, a kids panel, you know, that stuff, it feels like, okay, that's pretty consistent. But this area feels like, man, we can. It's like, sky's the limit. So how do you help churches on that piece particularly?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, one of the first things I almost always do is I'll ask people, I say, are you. Okay, so do we. Do you have experts coming to run this, or do you have staff coming to run this, or do you have volunteers running this? Because those are two very different things. And if you've got volunteers coming, which a great majority of our churches do, then you need to. You got to think about who you're designing this for.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that is a problem because a lot of production directors are like, this is what I want. I'm like, are you going to run it? Because if you're not going to be there, it doesn't really matter that much, you know, So a lot of times we're really trying. I mean, sometimes I hate to be the wet blanket, but sometimes I think and I can, I can, I can speak the language. I know what all the letters and everything mean. But sometimes I'm trying to back them off a little bit to say, look, let's build a system that's repeatable. Let's build a system that anybody, maybe not anybody, but certainly your volunteers, somebody who's equipped to do it, can do that, set it up in a reasonable amount of time. And, and, and every week they're not having to try to troubleshoot it and figure it out. And because it's so complex and yeah, that, that may be the right system for your main campus, but a lot of times at these portable locations, we're trying to do something that's fast, efficient, volunteer friendly. That's, that's really key. So we're constantly bringing that conversation back around to, okay, that's great. There's a trade off in time, there's a trade off in expertise. Do we want to do that? You know, and sometimes we say, yeah, that one, we do want to do it, but maybe we don't do it over here. There's, you know, so it's always a balancing act there a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, that, that, to me, that's a job. That's a critical piece. I think it's such a great thing that, that you guys offer to help us think through that and what is the nuance there and, and be another, like another voice in the room. Because I think sometimes we end up in those conversations with the, with the pro or person that wishes they were a pro, you know, tech person. And they're, it's like, it's like they're, they're, they want like the, all the bells and whistles, but at the end of the day they're not going to have to solve these problems long term. And yeah, that's good. Let's. Jeff, let's talk about the volunteer piece particularly. So man, I'm here in like set up, tear down, rolling stuff, plugging stuff in. You know, we, we know that churches live and die on volunteers in every location, but it's particularly true in, in portable environments. How do systems, well thought out systems from the front end help us win with volunteers, you know, week in, week out, not from day one, but then continue over the years.

[D]

Oh well. And actually that's, that's a part of Kurt's team in production and integration and all of that. The, the system that portable church uses. If you think about it, the, the portable church has to have all the same stuff your home church has. It's just all put into a portable system. So you need all of that. And, and I'm betting at your home church you've built that up over a series of five to 10 years and here you get it all shot. And because that you're starting out with church and it has to be done well. So you don't have boomerang volunteers that say, oh, I tried this and I'm going back home. We don't have that. So some of the things that help with that is that they are designed for that repetitive nature where everything goes in the same place in the case. So every case is designed custom for that particular room. And so one group can come in and set everything up and a whole different group can come in and put it away after you're done with your 1, 2, 3 services. And, and it all be in the same place because everything, every piece has a home and within each case and then every case has a specific place on a trailer because we advocate for trailers and we can explain later, but everything is weighted out so we have people that actually weigh each case and where it should go on the trailer so that we're not breaking some of your volunteers hitches, that we're not having stuff abandoned on the side of the road. And so there's A meticulous design that goes into meeting the needs so that the church can be effective and allowing the. The case system to be productive. And we have people, kids as early as 10 or 12, they think it's cool to be able to be a part of that. And so they're from 12 to 80 years old pushing these cases and being helpful in a way that maybe they're not teachers, maybe they're not Sunday school teachers, maybe they're not preachers, maybe they're not people who welcome people, you know, easily and they don't have those skills, but they love pushing the cases and being a part of that.

[C]

Yeah, that's. To tag on to that. That's. I mean, the teams I've been a part of in the past, we've. We've had groups of volunteers that never would have served in the. At a part. They had no, they had no place there. They had no home there. Guys that pull trucks, people that are on the security team, people that are bringing in food to the green room, whatever it may be. And they, they really do. They find a home there, they find connection there. It's not just about the serving, it's also about the community. They're very much interlinked and it's important

[D]

enough that we rewarn churches. So when you go from portable to permanent, you need to find a home for all these amazing volunteers that they can continue to, to serve.

[A]

Yeah, and we've. I was going to echo that. Like I've seen that time and again in campuses have been a part of where we've gone from portable to permanent. And even though I've seen it, I'm like, there are a group of these volunteers that are like, they're the backbone of the church. Like the, it's all theoretical until the roadies show up and set the thing up. Like we're theoretically doing church this weekend and then this group of heroes show up and, you know, make it all happen. And it is a group typically, it's not always, but it's my experience has been it's typically a group of guys who. They don't necessarily, they love it. They don't. But they don't necessarily fit in other places and they get this like foundational role in the church and love getting a little bit sweaty. And it's. The systems are designed so they're not super hard. One thing I want to say too, as a friend, like I remember years ago, this is again, probably 20 years ago with Pete, the founder of Portable Church. I was at your Location at the production location. And whereas I was, like, waxing eloquently about, man, these cases are incredible. And he like, and you're going to know what this is. I can't remember the exact stat, but we were showing this one case with this door that, like, flips down. And, you know, he's like, well, you know, if a certain person of a certain height, if something gets dropped into the bottom of that case, that door is designed so they can lean down and pick it up out of the bottom of that. Of that case. And he had some stat around, like, you know, well, do you know, like, X number of volunteers typically are this. And I was like, the amount of thinking that's gone into the design is incredible. Like, and these are not like, these just boxes that you're pushing around. They're. Although they are, They're. They're thought through, like, lots of small things throughout the entire system that always strike me. I'm like, man, that's just such a great idea. Which is, you know, pretty incredible. Kurt, coming back to kind of a little bit of an earlier question, I want to. There may be people that are listening in there. Like, I strategically get that maybe we're going to spend a little less money. We could do some sort of, like, portable thing to help us before we go, you know, long term. But some leaders might hear portable and think cheap, temporary, not great, ineffective, not on brand, all that kind of stuff. Help us think through how portable it really. Yeah. How does that. How do you respond to that? How do you respond to those kind of potential criticisms?

[C]

Yeah, I think I was trying to think of, you know, what. What causes this cheap thing? And I hate to say it, but I think sometimes it tends to be a DIY situation. It tends to be something where it's. It's that we talked about it earlier, that emergency situation. Like, I've got to figure out a solution. And so I think sometimes people, they go out and they grab this and they grab that and pull together. And now you've got this, you know, and there are churches that we go and work with where we sort of refresh the system or optimize the system. And a lot of times you'll see that where it's just stuff in a trailer. I mean, it's just.

[A]

Right.

[C]

They're in boxes. They're in, you know, cardboard. Seeing TVs and cardboard boxes that have been in those cardboard boxes for five, six years. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah, And I think that's the. I think that's Sometimes maybe where the cheap comes from. And, and it's the, the deal with us is everything's thought out, right? Everything has a home, everything has an, an intention in the way that it's stored, used, trainability in terms of, you know, so I, you know, I often say to people like, look, I. People go and pay lots and lots of money to go see concerts at big venues, right? And that's all portable. It doesn't have to be cheap. Those aren't cheap. It's really, it's dependent upon, you know, what is your budget and what is your volunteer base and everything else. It doesn't need to be cheap. And even at lots of budget levels, it doesn't work look cheap because there's really a lot of thought that's put into how it's used. So I don't think, you know, there's lots of opportunities to make it look great in a portable situation. But it, yeah, it has to be like you were talking about with Pete. It has to be thought out, it has to be engineered. It has to be put together in a way that's easy and fast and, and looks good and has quality about it.

[A]

Well, and this, this gets to how many churches you guys have worked with. Like, this is the insane. Like it's some giant number. Like it's. I know I said thousands at the front end, but what is that number, Jeff? What is that? It's, it's some huge number, right?

[D]

I think right now it's gotta be north of like 4,000 churches over the last 30 years.

[A]

See, this is friends. This is what I'm saying. There are people that are listening in and you're like, we could just do this on our own. And I'm like, well, why would you do that? Like, talk to the people who have. They. Although your situation's super unique, They've worked with 4,000 other churches in super unique situations and have. Help them figure it out. And man, like, that's. You want to leverage all of that thinking to help you figure out, okay, how are we going to get this to work at, you know, insert junior high, high school, whatever it is, you know, bowling alley, whatever it is, wherever you're moving into. That's. That's great. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Jeff.

[D]

Well, I was just going to say, so I would also, when it comes to the value piece, ask how valuable is it for you to have and to continue the momentum that you have going into your next, your next facility, whatever that is. So you've got a gap when you finally realize man, we got to do something and we got to do something fast. Portability can be done within three to four months. We can have you on the ground in your site and probably for an investment of maybe 3 to 5 or 7% of whatever that end expense is going to be, could be invested to keep that momentum going and to make things stronger. And so with that gap between we need to land somewhere and landing in a permanent spot, you could have anywhere from a three to five year gap that could be highly productive in a highly professional environment with professional gear, run by your volunteers. And I, I don't know very many. I mean, there are some guys that do DIY and do it well, but I don't know very many that take into consideration all those engineering feats that originally were thought up 30 years ago. And Kurt's team continues now. They produce a system that is amazing and helpful. And most of our, the churches that we work with, they, they come back. In fact, Liberty Live, we just did another interview with Liberty Live and they were gushing about how much we've helped them with several sites. And it's wonderful to hear that they're effective because of us putting, you know, carpet on wood and putting the right stuff in the right places and helping them to share the gospel.

[A]

Yeah, that's incredible. That's so good. Yeah. And I love that you may not like what I'm about to say, but I've said this to behind your backs. But you know, so many times I've said to leaders, when they're thinking about this exact moment, I'm like, okay, so let's talk about worst case scenario. Let's be the like, okay, we launched this location in this campus and we're, you know, we're excited about it, it's working well. But you know, we don't know. You don't know what's going to happen there. Well, the beautiful thing about a portable system is like, let's give that a run for two or three years and best case scenario, four years, like the example you use, four years, we end up moving into some other facility. Well, that's great. Well, what we do, what do we do with this portable system? We take it and put it somewhere else. Which I know you'd like us to say you buy a new system, but I say just take it and you know, get them to come back and retrofit it and then go into a new location, which you can't do. I don't know any. And I've known multiple churches that have done exactly that play, which is, you know, just. You talk about stewardship, that's just incredible use of the resources that God's given you. It's amazing stuff.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well,

[C]

I was gonna say we're in the process of talking to several churches right at the moment that are. That are retooling systems that they've had in play for five to 10 years. And it's exactly. It's an engine, right? They. They. They use it for growth, they retool it, and they put it back out there to do the next one. And that's part of the plan. That's. It's not a happenstance. That is the plan, like, is to always keep pushing that thing forward.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And that DUI thing, dui, that's different. D. Why do it yourself? Diy. That's a Freudian sleep slip. The. That happens in churches all the time. You know, a friend of mine's church, they were, you know, I was like, you really should be using portable church. And. And they didn't use portable church. And they came to their opening weekend and a key piece of gear did not fit through the door. Jeff knows the church I'm talking of. And they, you know, I was, you know, the leader that I know is like a fair. A little bit frustrated with, you know, with all that. And I happened to see pictures of their launch, and I'm like, oh, you got it through the door. And they're like, no, we did not get it through the door. We ended up spending more money and figured out, like, an older thing or something and retrofitted. And I'm like, gosh, like, you would have saved all that hassle just talking to someone who's gone ahead and figured out, how do you fit all this into a box and get it through a door as we're coming to land, Maybe a couple last questions. Maybe one for you, Jeff. If there's a leader that's in this, they're facing the capacity pressure right now. What's kind of one step they should take in this next 90 days? Where should they go next? And then I got one last question for you, Kurt, as we wrap up.

[D]

So the next 90 days, I would say certainly you're not going to land in a new location in the next 90 days. But what you can do is you can take a look in your crystal ball and say, I think something could be in our future and begin to know what you don't know. And I would say there's a lot about going portable. The benefits of portability. Some of the, the processes involved that we would love to just tell you about and inform you about. So that 12, 18, 24, even 36 months down the road, you. You have that knowledge and you say, all right, I've got this one in my pocket. I know I can do this. And we would be here to help you. So I would say in the next 90 days, give us a call and talk to us and say, hey, I don't know when we're going to do this, but I. But I kind of feel that we're going to have to. Can you help me understand and learn about it? I guess that's the best step, dad.

[A]

That's fantastic. You can go to your website, right? Portablechurch.com. jeff, I think, is the answer if you want to actually talk with you, which is amazing. I've told people that I'm like, Jeff will get on the phone and talk to you like, he's a real life human. And at the end of it, it's not like there's a credit card. You're buying a new system. That's not what it is. It's like, hey, we want to help you understand early, get in the process. You cannot start the conversation too early. You know, I appreciated Kurt saying like, hey, I talked to this leader and they said, maybe 10, 12 weeks from now, I need something done. Don't do that. Like, start early. Like, if you're as. And they say they'll do that, that's fine. That's portable church. They'll actually help you. But from my end as an operator, I'm like, even if you're inkling thinking, like, early in the, we might be doing something down the road, I'm not even sure if this is an option. Call Jeff. He'd be happy to help you. Kurt, for you, senior leader of the organization, you know, portable church is doing a great job. 4,000. We're looking forward to that. When you click over 5,000 churches, what would you say to a leader that's listening in today as they're thinking about expansion, Maybe a senior leader, like, you know, a lead pastor, that sort of thing. What kind of words of advice or wisdom would you give them as we wrap up today's episode?

[C]

Yeah, I think it's funny, like, as. As people are growing and they're expanding. We've talked about this a few times. But think about. You've poured everything you got into your. Especially if you're in one location, you've poured everything you got into that one location. All of you. You've got your special sauce and all those people that are really talented at what they do. And now you're like, we need to grow and maybe that's another location. And okay, how, how are we going to do that? And I think a lot of people are really commonly saying, okay, we're going to stretch that base over two. And a lot of times you can sort of get away with that a little bit.

[A]

But. But what?

[C]

Tell you what, you go to three or even as you really fully expand into two, you're going to be feeling it. And so the thing I would always say is, again, think about your long term strategy. Think about what you're going to need in terms of your team, in terms of repetition and process. And it just, it's going to serve you so well in the long run to be thinking about how the people play into this and how you're going to reproduce it versus just, you know, getting through this moment.

[A]

That's so good. Well, I appreciate you guys being on today again. If you want more information on portable church, you can just drop by portablechurch.com there's a ton of information on there, lots of helpful resources and all that. And if you want to talk to Jeff specifically, just go to portablechurch.com forward/jeff. He would love to jump on a call with you and talk you through whatever, you know, kind of issues or even if it's just like, hey, we're kind of thinking about this. What, what should we, what questions should we be asking? He would love to jump on a call with you. So thanks so much, gentlemen. Appreciate you being here today.

[D]

Thanks. Appreciate it.

[B]

Rich, thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Unseminary podcast. If you found today's conversation helpful, I'd share it with a friend in ministry. It's a simple way to spark new ideas and grow together. Also, don't Forget to visit unseminary.com to sign up for our email list. You'll get exclusive resources and practical tools delivered straight to your inbox to help you lead your church more effectively. Most importantly, take what you learned today and put it into action this week. Ministry impact starts with small, intentional steps. See you next time.