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unSeminary Podcast
Why Gifted Leaders Still Fail: Lessons from 25 Years of Ministry with Allen Holmes
00:45:48
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- [00:00]
A
Hey friends. Rich here from the Unseminary podcast. You know, we often talk about churches not doing well, but maybe your church is doing really well right now and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep the momentum going. It could be the time to start a new location. Maybe you've hesitated in the past few years, but now, now is the time for you to step out in faith again and launch your next location. That's why I've partnered with Portable Church Industries for a new resource called Launch a new location in 150 days or less. Portable Church has assembled a bunch of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum in a new location by sending part of your congregation back to their neighborhood and on mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step by step plan to launch your next or new location and a five minute readiness tool that will help you know if your church is ready to go. Listen, I really want you to drop by portablechurch.com rich that's portablechurch.com rich to get this free resource. Launch a new location in 150 days or less. Listen, if your church is growing, now is the time for you to step out and launch a new location. You know I'm passionate about this, so I want you to drop by portablechurch.com rich today to pick up this brand new resource. Launch a new location in 150 days or less. Again, one last time. That's portablechurch.com rich today.
- [01:33]
B
Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast, the place where church leaders get practical insights, tips and strategies for ministry growth. Today, you're stepping into something bigger than just a conversation. This podcast is part of a bold mission to help 100 churches grow by 1,000 people. Whether you're dreaming of increasing your impact in your community, empowering your team, or or reaching more people with the message of Jesus, you're in the right place. We're here to bring you the stuff you wish they taught in seminary. Ideas and tools you can put into action this week to see transformation in your ministry. Let's dive in.
- [02:12]
A
Hey friends. Welcome to the Unseminary Podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Today's gonna be a really good conversation. It's one of those conversations that I think we all need to have. Look carefully at. Think about ourselves, think about the teams we lead. I really do think it's one of those make or break kind of conversations. And so you'll be rewarded for tuning in today. Excited to have Dr. Alan Holmes with us. He's a senior pastor of a church called Definition Church. He's been there since 2000, so a few years. They're located in North Carolina and is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. They have a residency program as well that's called to train and develop next generation of mission minded ministry leaders and believing that generosity to privilege. Generosity is a privilege. Definition Church also partners with a number of other ministries, churches and organizations to really serve their community. Dr. Allen, so glad you're here. Thanks for being here today.
- [03:07]
C
Wow. Well, I'm so excited to be here, Rich, and appreciate the invitation.
- [03:11]
A
Oh, this is going to be a fun conversation. Why don't you kind of fill out the picture, tell us a little bit about definition, kind of tell us the story, give us a sense of the church.
- [03:21]
C
Well, my wife and I, we grew up down in Wilmington, which is on the coast of North Carolina. In 2000, we were finishing seminary and looking for a church, really looking for a city where we could plant our life and stay in one place kind of forever. And we were in a small town. Our first church was in a small town of about 1500 and Greensboro was one of the cities we visited. And there was a church here that had lost their pastor. They only had about 30 people. And the truth is that was safe and kind of gave us a lot of freedom to make mistakes and learn and grow as leaders and as a man and a woman, as a married couple, as parents, you know, all the things without really the pressure of a big church and a lot of expectations. And that was perfect for us. And we fell in love with the city. And it's been 25 years, years now. It's hard to believe that. And, and we love it here. Greensboro's home now and Definition's been great to us.
- [04:29]
A
So. Good. Well, I want to take advantage of the fact that you've been at your location at your church for a number of years. When you look back over two and a half decades of ministry and you know, you've seen a lot of churches in your community and then just even wider, you know, across the country, that sort of thing. Where have you seen leadership fall apart in churches? We'll start with the negative to start. When does it break down most often? Why do the wheels come off? Where have you seen that happen?
- [05:00]
C
I think generally it's just anything that creates pressure. I think we have a tendency to train and prepare as leaders. When there's no pressure, then all of a sudden we find ourselves in a situation where there's a tremendous amount of pressure. And in those moments it's not what we know that matters, but who we are. It kind of gets exposed. And this happened for me the first time I was in seminary. It was my second semester. My wife Tina and I had just gotten married. So we were five months into marriage. I was living my dream. I mean, seminary for somebody who wants to be a pastor is like Disney World, right? I mean, I'm in class every day studying the Bible, surrounded by all these people that love Jesus. I've got this vision for change in the world. I mean, it was just wonderful. And in month five, towards the end of that second semester, I came home and my wife wasn't doing well. I didn't realize how bad it was. But that day I came home and she said, I don't love you, and I don't want to be married. I will never be in the ministry. I'm going home. And it's like all of a sudden, my whole world just began to fall apart. You know, at that stage of life, the only thing that really mattered to me was ministry. You know, I had this call on, this sense of calling and my marriage, I really. I grew up in a broken home, really didn't have any family. And my wife, and actually, her family were family to me.
- [06:46]
A
Right.
- [06:47]
C
And so in that moment, it felt like I was losing everything that mattered. Wow. And I realized that despite all of my gifts and my zeal and my passion and my good intentions, beneath the surface, I had all of this on all of these unaddressed issues from my life story that were now coming to the surface and creating a mess in my marriage. And that crisis, that pressure, exposed those things and created an opportunity for me to learn and grow. And by God's grace, we dropped out of seminary, we moved back home, and I met Dr. Bennett, who became a mentor to me. He was a retired pastor. And I just started this journey of. Instead of being focused on just what I do and what I could produce, which is all I knew up until that moment, to really asking some deeper questions about who am I and what's driving all of this behavior and what's creating this problem in my marriage and how do I invite Christ to really do a deeper work in my heart and life and character and. And I've been on that journey now for almost 30 years.
- [08:07]
A
Wow. That's incredibly compelling. One of my mentors, he talks about how he burnt out early and he had kind of, you know, ended up on the side of the road and, you know, in a really bad spot in life. And he says he looks back on that and says, wow, by God's grace, that happened, you know, and wow, that, you know, his whole, it changed the whole trajectory of his life and he made a whole bunch of changes. And he feels really, in a weird sort of way, thankful for that. Even though you're thankful feels like a weird emotion to have around such a crisis in your life Now. So many leaders were so focused on the mission. We're so focused on leading others. We're so focused on pushing forward. We miss this stuff. There are these things bubbling under the surface, and we haven't had the grace of a wife who would raise her hand and say, hey, enough is enough. Why do you think that gap is so common in ministry? Why is this just like a thing we see all the time?
- [09:14]
C
Well, I think to your point, in ministry, just like not just in ministry, but any organizational leadership, you're rewarded and celebrated for what you produce. And the truth is, that's all most people can see. I mean, when my marriage blew up, if you would have gone around and interviewed my friends, my family, Tina's family, my professors, if you would have asked anybody about me, they would have said, alan's a rising star, he loves God. I mean, he, he's doing all the stuff, he's checking all the boxes. This guy's going to really be somebody one day. But what you couldn't see is that beneath the surface, I didn't know who I was. And I was insecure, I was defensive, I was independent. I really didn't know how to do relationships well. I was insensitive. I didn't have like a bad, ugly heart. I mean, I loved and cared about people. I just had all of these unaddressed, unfinished issues in my life. But my giftedness would allow me to produce despite that. You know, I think sometimes people wonder why are leaders great at leading? But, you know, they struggle to lead themselves. I'm not sure that's really a real thing. What leaders are good at doing is they're great at producing. They're not great at leading if they're not great at leading themselves. In other words, I can be a great producer and a bad leader. I can be great on stage and draw a crowd and kind of be a slave driving leader. And it might from a numbers perspective. And people that aren't close, they look at it and think, wow, this is wildly successful. But the people on the inner circle know better that the culture is unhealthy and, and this person's shallow or he's a tyrant or whatever the case might Be. There's all kinds of ways to build a crowd in American culture today that have very little to do with Jesus. And we've seen that over and over and over again. So I think in order to be a great leader, you have to be able and willing to lead yourself.
- [11:43]
A
So what did that process look like for you? The kind of internal journey of trying to name what your wife had or define maybe what your wife had named, to really get clarity on that. Maybe unpack that step a little bit first before we get on to what changed. You know, how did you. What did that look like? How. What kind of space did you have to create? Where did that part of the journey take you?
- [12:09]
C
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, when I look back on all this, you know, I'm just so grateful for God's grace, because I didn't even understand the process I was in. I mean, you know, I was just in it and trying to navigate it. But by God's grace, I decided to ask the question, what in my character has produced this in my marriage? And what's really shocking about that is all of my seminary buddies were saying, what is wrong with your wife? And I, by God's grace, was saying, what's wrong with me? I had enough humility to look at my wife and go, you know, I married this woman because she was so full of grace and kind and gentle, this beautiful soul, this beautiful person. So if she's reacting this way, chances are she's not the problem. Something about our relationship is producing that. And actually, so what it was is my wife grew up in this really great, healthy family. Two parent, home, siblings, people in her house all the time. Her mom cooked every night. I ate at their house five nights a week. I mean, it's like their family became my family. Right. Well, I grew up with none of that. I grew up with a single mom, basically all by myself, raising myself, and those two worlds just collided. So when we went to seminary, I was doing school full time and working full time, and she was working full time. And I thought, well, that was normal. That's what I'd been doing for years and years. I'd worked my way through college. You know, I'd been on my own since I was 18. And so that seemed normal. But for Tina, it's like she went from living in this beautiful community to being all by herself at seminary, and I'm not even there, right? And she's. And so she was relationally just dying, and I didn't know how to be sensitive to that, you know, I wanted to just say, you know, get over it. Life's hard, which would not have worked.
- [14:35]
A
Right.
- [14:35]
C
But I just had enough grace to begin asking God, what are you trying to do? In my heart. And like you were saying earlier about your buddy, the thing I would say today, if I would have married a woman strong enough to tolerate that moment, I would have been. I would have never survived in ministry because I would have been a driven, legalistic, judgmental, demanding kind of pastor that. That really, I think, used the Bible to beat people up. And I mean, instead of being a man who really actually experienced, I guess, an inner. This inner deeper work and can invite people into something that is deeply spiritual and transformational and life giving, you know, I would have just been this ugly, difficult pastor to be with. And so I'm so grateful. I mean, that. That really began this journey that just changed and. And has literally touched everything about my life and ministry and our marriage today. I mean, it's amazing.
- [15:46]
A
Yeah. So what. What changed? What. How did you change your, you know, approach to making decisions, to dealing with the pressure, dealing with the pace? You know, obviously we were kind of at the point in the journey where you took a pause and made some changes, but eventually, you know, you ended up back on that path and back into ministry and have been leading and the ministry has been flourishing. So what were some of the. The kind of shifts that you made that were. That, in hindsight seem like that was. Those were keystone decisions?
- [16:16]
C
Well, this sounds so silly to even say it, especially to Christian leaders, but I had to prioritize my relationship with Jesus. Right. Well, there's a good idea. Right?
- [16:29]
A
Yeah, exactly. Write that down. What did he say? No, that's true, though. Lean in on that. Because you know that there are. Listen, we all know we go. We all go through seasons where that our relationship goes, goes colder. Some of us, we, you know, we just. It's been like years, decades since we feel like we've had a thriving relationship. So. Lean in on that.
- [16:50]
C
Well, you know, it's interesting. When I. When we moved back to Wilmington and I started spending time with Dr. Bennett, he just. He just pressed me on that all the time. Give your mornings to Jesus. Give your mornings to Jesus. And I just began learning how do I develop a meaningful time with Jesus every day? How do I read the Bible for formation instead of information? And how, you know, how do I worship for formation? How do I. What is my relationship to the Holy Spirit and inviting him into those moments to help me see and to understand to teach and to heal and to counsel me into healing, wholeness, growth, all those things. You know, how do I press into community? You know, I was so independent. And the truth is, I mean, 30 years later, I'm still working on this. I was so trained to be independent and I liked being independent. I wasn't unhappy independent. But independence allows you to hold on to your immaturity because nobody's challenging it,
- [17:59]
A
nobody's in your business.
- [18:02]
C
And so I just began really developing that time with Jesus and just fell in love with spending time with Jesus. And again, that, that changed everything. And again, as silly as that sounds, I've been in so many groups, it's kind of shocking how often I'm with pastors and they just say, I don't have time to read my Bible, I don't have time to worship. I can't give 15 or 20 minutes in the mornings to the Lord. And it's like, if that's true, then something is just so out of order about our life and ministry and we've not learned to juggle all of that. And because we're not handling that well, so many pastors, they don't finish in ministry. Ministry chews them up and spits them out. And so we have to make that the priority. So important. So important.
- [19:01]
A
Yeah, I really appreciate that. I appreciate you leaning in on that. And this is an area where it's an occupational hazard in what we have to do because our, our job is to produce that in other people. And so we have to handle the scripture in, in a way, you know, it's like a part of what we do to produce the content we produce or whatever that is. And it can become very transactional if we don't watch. And so I really appreciate you leaning in on that. What about on the married side? What advice would you give again? You've, you've are happily married today and you know, all these years later. And what rhythms have you found that have worked well for you and your wife, for you to continue to lead and to lead, you know, at a high level? The reason why we're talking is because you're leading a fast growing church, but you know, you're doing that and keeping your marriage. What are some of the rhythms that you, that you help coach other maybe younger leaders to, to really instill on that side, to, to be, to be whole on that side.
- [20:03]
C
One of the things that was so helpful early on is recognizing that my marriage was God's gift to me. To learn, not just to grow and mature as A man, but even to learn to walk with God. And one of the things you see in Scripture over and over and over again is the primary metaphor God uses to describe our relationship with him as a husband and a wife, that we're the bride of Christ. And what I found is that my marriage and my relationship with Jesus were running parallel. So if I learned something with Tina, it strengthened my relationship with Jesus. And when I would learn something with Jesus, it would actually strengthen my relationship with Tina, that they were playing off of each other that way. And so as Tina and I started working on our marriage, I mean, it was as simple. Like, even when I think about giving my mornings to God, when I wake up every day, the first thing I do is I roll over on my knees. I acknowledge Jesus, you are my king, king of my heart and life. I invite the Holy Spirit to fill me fresh for that day. And I probably pray there three to five minutes. And then I roll over on my back and put my hand on my sleeping wife. And I just take a minute and begin praying and blessing my wife. And then I'll get up and I'll kind of have usually a couple hours where I can just be in the Word. I can worship. I can have silence and solitude and just allow God to minister to my soul. And then I don't ever leave the house without giving my wife a kiss, telling her I love her, embracing her. During the day, I'm going to check in two or three times. How's your day going? What's going on with you? If I'm driving somewhere or between, between meetings, you know, little quick touches. When I get home, I'm going to walk in the house. The first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to find Tina. We're going to eat dinner together that night. At the end of the day, we're going to maybe go on a walk. That night, we may get in bed and just both be reading a book for a little bit. We might talk about our day or what's going on with our kids or life. Before we go to bed, before we go to sleep, we'll pray together. And again, I want to make sure that I'm affirming my love for. Well, I describe all of that to people. And what I try to tell them is I have a response. The Christian life is learning to live in the presence of God, and marriage is learning to live in the presence of your wife. And so I know throughout the day what's going on in the heart of my wife. And how to love and serve her. Well, even when I'm here at work and as a Christian, I've got to learn how to. How do I live in the presence of God and recognize he's always with me. And I want to bring Jesus into every moment, every meeting, every decision versus I have devotional time and I leave God at home and then I come to work and do my work. So that's just one example. As I learned how to do that with Tina, I saw how to apply to my relationship with God and vice versa.
- [23:24]
A
So good. Yeah, that's so helpful. Let's talk about how your internal life and your own growth in your own staying close to him. What impact has that had on the church, on your team, on the people you lead? How do you see those two working together?
- [23:46]
C
Yeah, that's a great question. So part of it is you reproduce who and what you are. So what we're describing. And of course, I've got 25 years of this. And so that gives me a little bit of an advantage in that regard, because this takes time to build. You know, it doesn't happen overnight. But when this has been kind of the direction of your life over 25 years, then it becomes the direction of the organization and the people that you lead and so on. Our church staff and our church and the way we do ministry, the way our mission is all affected by what we're talking about. And so our staff, they all have a rule of life. They all have a very intentional plan for their spiritual and personal and leadership growth in their life. And we work as team to facilitate that. In fact, in our job descriptions, their number one responsibility is their personal growth and development. And we tell them all the time, the greatest thing you can do for everyone in your life is to learn and grow as a leader. That's the greatest contribution you can make. When you do that, everybody comes up, you bless everybody. So work harder on who you are than what you're building. And so we just emphasize that. And then we do little things like, you know, in our church culture, we once a month, they have a retreat day where they're required to go and be alone with Jesus for a whole day. And they're being paid to do it. It's their, you know, it's part of their job. We emphasize a spiritual practice every month, and we're doing that in all of our groups, and we model that as a staff. Like in January, our spiritual practice is fasting, and we're about to begin, you know, a season of prayer and fasting. Like a lot of churches do in January. And so that's integrated into everything that we're doing as a church. And to our staff, they're encouraged to do that. So we're just constantly making sure that they're learning and growing. And then that begins to shape the culture of your church. It shapes your ability to actually make disciples in your church. I mean, at the end of the day, if on a scale of one to ten, as a follower of Christ, if I'm a five, I can only lead three and fours and I can only attract twos, and then there's nobody that I can help. Yes, right. Because I'm already at the bottom.
- [26:23]
A
Right.
- [26:24]
C
But if I can be an eight and lead sixes and sevens and attract four and fives, then we can reach down and help the two and threes get up. You know, so my. What God is doing in me, and that's true for everybody on our team, is the greatest contribution they can make. And it brings everybody up. And so that's just really worked into our culture.
- [26:46]
A
Think it like from a diagnostic point of view, a church calls you up and they feel stuck, organized, organizationally, feel like, man, things are just. They're not going well. When. When you take a call like that, is your reflex to go towards, well, where are things with the. With the leadership team internally? Or, you know, do we start organizationally? Hey, let's fix a couple things, Help us think through how do you handle that kind of conversation? Or how does this conversation inform a conversation like that when it comes your way?
- [27:24]
C
That's a great question. I mean, generally, my response will be, I'll tell people, really, if you need organizational, just kind of practical, how do I do it? Information, I just give them some resources, you know, so I'll send them, go to the GROW conference. They're probably the best in the world at it. They can tell you how to do these different things. But then I want to come back to the thing I think we can help you with is really the soul of your organization, which is a reflection of what God's doing in you. So let's talk about who you are as a leader. The way you live your life, the way you lead your staff, the culture that you're building and creating. Because ultimately, if you get all these systems, but you don't have culture, culture trumps systems every single time. And when you get the systems and the culture right, you begin. Everybody's attracted to that. In fact, I think maybe one of the big problems in Western culture, and this is Hard to admit, but I think the church has to admit this, is that people are. People are not going to church. Church attendance is on decline, but it's not because people don't want God. They're just not convinced they can find him at church.
- [28:45]
A
Right? Yeah, that's so true. Yeah.
- [28:48]
C
I mean, they're spiritually hungry, but the cultures of our church, people come into that culture and what they kind of intuitively know is that this doesn't feel healthy or spiritual. So you can create all the systems you want and send out flyers and do all kinds of things, but if people show up at your church and what they intuitively know is that this isn't healthy and spiritual, you can't grow your church, so you have to begin there. It's also true that if it is healthy and spiritual, even if your systems are a little suspect, people will tolerate a lot of. A lot of that because they're so spiritually hungry. And I think that's more true than ever before.
- [29:35]
A
Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. Well, yeah. My good friend Carrie Newhoff, he says, like, man, it would be so sad if people came to our churches and all they found was us. Right. You know, at the end of the day, right. Like, we. We're trying to point them to Jesus and as. As kind of elementary as it sounds, but it's just so true.
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C
If.
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A
If there isn't something happening there that's bigger than just what they can get anywhere else, why would they come to us? Why would they engage in our churches? Yeah, that's.
- [30:02]
C
That's exactly right. You know, we just came through Christmas, and one of the things that I think Protestants miss is when we think about Christmas, we think about Emmanuel, God with us, we think about the Incarnation, God became flesh. And we think that's something that happened 2,000 years ago. And the truth is that's supposed to be true of the church today. We are the body of Christ, God in us. And when that's true, people, when they show up at our churches or show up at our dinner table, they should experience Jesus when they're with us because we're becoming more and more like him.
- [30:45]
A
Yes.
- [30:47]
C
And then our life gives validity to our message.
- [30:51]
A
Well, one of the things I'm working on a book for, on four churches about breaking the 2000 barrier. And one of the interesting stats that we've bumped into is that oftentimes the. When a church breaks the 2000 barrier, the senior leader and often the senior leadership team have been there for going on two decades, 18 years, 19 years, 22 years. Like, it's just a really common pattern.
- [31:14]
C
You see.
- [31:16]
A
Now that's not the perception. Our perception is like, oh, there's like the just add water, mega fast church that just explodes and it all happens. But that actually isn't the normative pattern. Normative pattern is, it's. It takes a long time. You've been at your church for 25 years. Talk us through how longevity. How does that tie into this conversation? How does it tie into the impact you're seeing, you know, at definition? Talk us through that.
- [31:42]
C
Yeah, you know, it's interesting when I. One of the other real key moments for me is I went back to do my doctorate of ministry degree at Gordon Conwell in redemptive leadership. And so much of what we were studying is how God works in the crisis in these pressure moments to expose the unfinished places in our character so that we can grow and become more like Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom impact in the world. And one of my professors, Dr. Powers, he actually wrote a book called Redemptive Leadership. It's a simple little book, but profound, where he describes leadership development in five stages. And stage one is a skilled leader, where you get a leadership role just based on your skill, so maybe the ability to preach. And so they call you to be the pastor. That's how I became the pastor of my first church. I could preach. I hadn't done anything else, but they let me be the pastor because I could preach. And then the second stage is a principal leader, where you begin to understand why you do what you do. But the third stage, which is so important, is the character stage. And in order for a leader to go through the character stage, God always uses a crisis to bring him into that stage. But when he comes into that stage, he has a choice. In that stage, he can open his heart and allow God to do that deeper work, or he can go back and hide behind his skills and principle. And that's what pastors do a lot of times. The reason you see this turnover every, you know, depending on what statistic you read, every two to four years, pastors are leaving churches is because they come into a church and they have this honeymoon season, and then all of a sudden there's a crisis that exposes some things and they start floating their resume and hiding behind their skill rather than allowing God to deal with their character so that they can advance and become a. A transformative redemptive leader. So I think one of the things that's been so true for us is we've just tried to say to people, when there's a crisis, don't panic, don't run away. See it as an opportunity. In fact, I ended up doing my dissertation on the idea that if we could teach this model to leaders, that it would cause them to respond differently in the crisis. Instead of running from it, they would run to it and open their heart, and God could use that to really propel them into their redemptive future. And the research said that was true. And so we've tried to really work that in our culture to understand when something goes wrong, don't run away and don't hide. Let's run into it and trust God to meet us there so that this thing God works redemptively to use for your benefit and to launch you into your future. And because that's been our culture, people have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, Rick has been here 25 years. He's actually here two Sundays longer than I've been here. Eric's been here 24 years. Jonathan's been here 19 years. Steve's been. Chelsea's been here almost. This year will be 14 years. Steve's been here 10 years. I mean, so they've just been here a long, long, long time. And that. But that's why is that they've seen these moments and we've helped them to find God in it so that it actually works for us instead of against us.
- [35:34]
A
Yeah, that's. That's great. I love that. You know, I think if more churches, if more leaders had the mindset, even as we let our people, that like, hey, if they come to us and it feels like there's a crisis brewing here. I do feel like our culture is so Ben words, like, it's not just them leaving, it's us leaving them. It's like, okay, time's up, you're done. Like, move on. We would never say it that way because we're better Christians and we know. But. But that's the vibe we give people.
- [36:02]
C
And.
- [36:04]
A
And I do think it's been interesting as we've been looking really, from a church growth point of view, this is a really sticky trend that we see that. It's like you, the key leaders have to be here for a long time. And it makes sense on lots of levels. This level, it makes sense. It makes sense. Sense on just like community influence, like, you. You have to be around for a long time. People are super suspicious of the church. And they're not, you know, they don't come like that. Maybe 30 years ago, people trusted the Church. Well, that's just not true anymore. And so when you're around for a long time that, you know, that makes a difference, it's hard to. It's not like a really pithy bullet point because it's like, well, just stick around. But it is, it's critically important to the, you know, to the overall, you
- [36:45]
C
know, that, that reminds me of a couple of things. One, one of the, I think things we have to be careful about today is I think we are doing such a good job of planting churches. We're all for church planting. We just help the church in our city plant. We're about to launch somebody out next year to plant under the church. I mean, we. That's a fantastic thing, but we've gotten so good at it. If you're a 30 year old and you plan a church and you start with 500 on day one, it could be detrimental to your spiritual journey. We just have to kind of recognize
- [37:21]
A
that, talk more about that. Why would that be?
- [37:23]
C
Well, when I think about myself, when I came to definition, we had about 30 people and we did not average 100 for an entire year until my seventh year here.
- [37:38]
A
Right. Right now.
- [37:39]
C
During those seven years, I thought it was the greatest church in America. I mean, we were having a good time and we were basically a college ministry more than a church back then. When I came, we had an older congregation. But my first Sunday, 15 college students showed up. Of course, I was only 26 and so I naturally gravitated towards them. We kind of became this college ministry and it wasn't until several years later that they were old enough to get married and start having babies that we actually became a real church. But during that time, the truth is God, I just believe God was in that because I was still so young and inexperienced and immature as a man and leader that the last thing I needed was any more success. It would have really. Success can really blind you to your areas of, you know, where you really need to grow. In fact, one of the things that you see in several places in scripture and one of the things that we tell our church all the time, that the Christian life is a lifelong transformational journey with Christ. And you see this in several places in Scripture. Let me give you a couple examples. You think about Joseph. I don't know if you've ever thought about this story, but I was preaching on it a couple of years ago and I realized in this story, there are three times that Joseph has a coat. His first coat as a child is a coat of entitlement. And it needs to be ripped off. His next coat was given by Pharaoh. It's a coat of self sufficiency. It needs to be ripped off. And Potiphar's wife took it off. And then third, there's a coat of anointing where he's come through this crucible. He's come through these seasons of pain and struggle and wrestling and suffering that has produced this character. And now God can elevate him and give him almost unlimited power and authority without the threat of him abusing it. Well, without that process, God could never. If God puts any man in that position without that process, it destroys you. I mean, you're not prepared. You can't handle that. You know, I tell people all the time that one of the reasons God doesn't just tell us our future, you know, people are always wanting to know, you know, what's God going to do. And the truth is, if God told us what we were going to be doing in 10 years, we'd try to go there tomorrow. And the process prepares us for our purpose. You cannot bypass the process and still fulfill your purpose. And so God works in that, that challenge. I think about Psalm 23, and I think Psalm 23 describes three stages. First stage is that I'm. I'm this child. I'm very young and immature in my. In my fate. And then I become this warrior, and then I eventually become friend. But I have to go through the valley of the shadow of death to get up that mountain in order to be a friend of God. And there's no way to bypass that. Seeing you, you see this over and over and over again in Scripture. And it's just part of our sanctification. It's the way God works in our lives. Now. One of the things that sometimes somebody might hear all this and they go, well, I know so and so I'll give you a great example, classic example of this. Chris Hodges is one of the most respected pastors in America.
- [41:16]
A
Yeah, for sure.
- [41:17]
C
And he has pastored one of the fastest growing churches in America. But there is a reason he has been so fruitful. And the reason is before he ever became a pastor, he didn't start that church until he was 40. And before becoming that pastor, he served under two of the best pastors in two of the strongest churches in America. So he was so much more mature than the average church planter when he started. When I'm 53, I don't think I'm where Chris was at 40 when he started church. So that was a big advantage. In why they've been able to be so consistently fruitful for such a long period of time. And we just have to recognize that. And again, that's why it's so important that we're focused on what God is doing in us. Because over time, that's what produces the best results, is just a mature man or woman of God.
- [42:16]
A
Love it. Well, Alan, thank you so much for today's conversation. This has been a great, been really rich conversation. There's a lot more we could, we could talk about. But I really appreciate you giving us the time today. As we wrap up today's episode, what any kind of final words you'd give to a leader as they're thinking about reflecting on this kind of inner life, leading themselves, you know, trying to align who they are outside with who they are inside. Help us. Help us with the kind of final word as we kind of wrap up today's call.
- [42:48]
C
Yeah, you know, I was reading a book recently, and this quote, I've just been meditating on it the last couple of weeks, and the quote is, God loves us as we are, not as we should be, for none of us are as we should be. And I say that just to say I think so many pastors are trying so hard, like the older brother in the Prodigal story, they're trying so hard to work for God and to prove something. And I just think we got to begin with falling in love with him and trust he's better at producing than we are. And if we just fall in love with Jesus and allow him to make us more like that father, his kids will come running home because they're looking for fathers. They're looking for that place of grace and life and hope. And so that characterizes who we are in our soul. Then people are just so attracted to that. So I would just say to all the pastors and leaders listening, God is crazy about you. You can't do anything about that. And you don't have to earn it. And none of us deserve it. And if we can learn to really receive that and fall in love with Jesus again, it just changes everything.
- [44:10]
A
So good. Well, sir, I appreciate you being on today's episode. If people want, if we want to send people online somewhere to track with you or with definition, where do we want to send them so they. They could connect with you?
- [44:23]
C
Yeah, they can just Google Definition Church. And I do have a website. There's not much on it yet. There's probably not anything there that it's going to help them. I need to do a better job of developing some content and getting it out there. But the best place to look would be just to go to our website. There are some resources there for churches and of course it's great. You know, we'd love to hear from it. And we really appreciate you just letting us. Inviting us to be on the show today and to get to encourage leaders is such a, such a privilege.
- [44:52]
A
No, I appreciate you. I just want to honor you, you know, publicly. We reach out to churches like this, frankly, because you end up on the fast food growing church list and we're like, hey, what's God using? And I love where this conversation went today. I think super helpful for people. So thanks so much, Alan. Appreciate you being on today.
- [45:08]
C
Thanks, Rich. Have a great day.
- [45:09]
B
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Unseminary Podcast. If you found today's conversation helpful, I'd share it with a friend. In ministry. It's a simple way to spark new ideas and grow together. Also, don't Forget to visit unseminary.com to see. Sign up for our email list. You'll get exclusive resources and practical tools delivered straight to your inbox to help you lead your church more effectively. Most importantly, take what you learned today and put it into action this week. Ministry impact starts with small, intentional steps. See you next time.