Best Days Podcast | Season 11 Episode 7

Summary

Victory Church: Paul Daugherty – Best Days Podcast (Season 11, Episode 7)

Date: May 6, 2026
Hosts: John & Arvin
Theme: Navigating Relationships, Boundaries, and Community in Ministry

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Episode Overview

This episode of the "Best Days Podcast" from Victory Church delivers a humorous yet insightful exploration of relationships—especially within the church and ministry context. John and Arvin discuss the realities of cyclical ministry seasons, the tension between friendliness and genuine friendship, the emotional balance of “giving” and “taking” in relationships, and how to find authentic community, particularly in a ministry environment. The hosts also reflect on personal experiences of burnout, the importance of boundaries, and practical ways to cultivate healthy friendships and support systems at Victory and beyond.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Ministry Life, Seasons, and Staying Energized

• Spring is a Busy Ministry Season: The hosts open with humor about the busyness at Victory—graduations, group transitions, and a full schedule, leading to conversations about how staff stay awake and energized ([00:19]-[02:07]).
• Funny Energy Hacks: Stories about cold showers versus energy drinks become a playful lead-in to deeper discussions about the ministry's pace and culture.

Friendliness vs. True Friendship

• Reconnecting with Old Contacts ([04:04]-[08:44]):
  • John narrates awkward encounters with old ministry contacts, pointing out the difference between "catching up" out of obligation and maintaining meaningful connections.
  • Memorable Moment:

    “Catch up is for Heinz.” (John, [09:01])

• Defining Friendship ([07:17]-[08:23]):
  • True friends deeply desire the best for each other and share meaningful, even personal conversations.
  • Reflects honestly on the lack of capacity or desire to expand one's close friend circle in certain seasons of life.

Ministry Relationships & the Messiah Complex

• Pressure to Meet Everyone’s Needs ([09:28]-[11:22]):
  • Arvin describes the “messiah complex”—the initial urge in ministry to solve everyone’s problems and be everything for everyone.
  • Quote:

    “If you've been in ministry longer than 30 minutes, you don't want to be that person for people anymore. Like, at first you have a messiah complex, and then very quickly you're like, I'm not.” (Arvin, [09:28])

• Paul’s Context of Being ‘All Things to All People’ ([10:20]-[10:58])
  • They clarify that, biblically, this phrase is often misapplied to justify overextending oneself.

Givers vs. Takers – Recognizing and Managing Relational Dynamics

• Defining Givers and Takers ([11:56]-[14:26]):
  • Arvin introduces the concept of "takers"—people who continually draw from others’ time and energy without mutuality or self-awareness, often identified by the “gut feeling” their presence evokes.
• Childhood Anecdote:
  > “The worst taker is the one who is convinced they're a giver.” (Arvin, [18:18])
  • John shares a story about a family friend who regularly disrupted family time unknowingly, exemplifying how “takers” may not be malicious, just unaware.

Social Media, Community, and Generational Differences

• Technology as a Tool with Impact on Relationships ([20:45]-[22:58]):

  • Social media is described as a "bomb":

    “Giving them social media is like introducing them to the most wanted criminal in the world.” (Arvin, [21:05])

• Men vs. Women & Social Media Effects ([21:33]-[21:46]):

  • Men tend towards externalized (violent towards others) and women towards internalized (violent towards self) effects.
  • John and Arvin agree that while online resources are useful, nothing replaces in-person, genuine interaction for building healthy relationships.

The Necessity of Reflection and Boundaries in Ministry

• Importance of Self-Reflection for Healthy Giving ([23:53]-[24:48]):
  • Regular prayer and reflection are highlighted as essential for self-awareness and balanced relational giving.

    “Lord, help me judge myself before it's gonna have to happen through someone else, through something else, or you do it.” (John, [23:55])

The Heart of True Friendship

• Being Present Over Having Content ([25:12]-[26:21]):

  • The hosts emphasize that, in relationships, the act of being together often matters more than the actual subject of conversation.
  • Quote:

    “Is what they're saying all that important, or is the fact that they're speaking to me important?” (Arvin, [25:23])

• Value of Simple Companionship:

  • John highlights the life-giving nature of mundane conversations after experiencing trauma or burnout in ministry.

Burnout and the Loneliness of Ministry Leaders

• Personal Family Story – Pastor Billy Joe Daugherty’s Experience ([28:30]-[31:14]):
  • John shares a moving anecdote about his father feeling alone despite being surrounded by people in ministry.
  • Quote:

    “My dad, to me, he was a hero… but there was a moment where… he was like, ‘Sharon, I feel so alone.’” (John, [30:16])

  • Draws a distinction between accountability partners and true, heart-level friends.

Finding and Building Community

• Practical Ways to Find Friendship at Victory ([33:30]-[38:25]):
  • Attend services—Victory’s environment prioritizes inclusivity and approachability.
  • Be a “taker” at first if needed, but adopt a cyclical mindset where giving and receiving are both necessary.
  • Join a production team or go on a missions trip—these shared experiences forge deep relationships.

    “Stay long enough to get hurt. Do a Victory production. Go on a mission trip.” (John, [36:57])

  • The church exists to connect people, not just give them information or programming.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments With Timestamps

• On 'Catching Up'

  “Catch up is for Heinz.” (John, [09:01])

• Purpose of Friendship

  “Is what they're saying all that important, or is the fact that they're speaking to me important?” (Arvin, [25:23])

• On Social Media’s Dangers

  “Giving them social media is like introducing them to the most wanted criminal in the world.” (Arvin, [21:05])

• Healthy Ministry Boundaries

  “We want both. Yes, we want to help people, but we also don't want to be their messiah. We need a messiah, us, people who work at the church.” (John, [39:18])

• True Community in Church

  “The plan God has for your friend can be found in God’s house.” (John, [38:23])

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Important Timestamps

• On Seasonal Ministry Busyness: [00:19]–[01:34]
• Friendship vs. Friendly Acquaintances: [04:04]–[09:19]
• Messiah Complex in Ministry: [09:28]–[11:22]
• Recognizing ‘Takers’ in Relationships: [11:56]–[14:26]
• On Technology and Social Media’s Impact: [20:45]–[22:58]
• Reflection & Internal Growth: [23:53]–[24:48]
• The Power of Simple Companionship: [25:12]–[26:21]
• Ministry Burnout and Loneliness: [28:30]–[32:11]
• Building Community at Victory: [33:30]–[38:25]

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Conclusion

John and Arvin close by encouraging listeners who feel lonely or disconnected: genuine friendship and life-giving community are possible—especially in the church context. They urge involvement, openness to both taking and giving, and the importance of relationships that go beyond ministry performance into genuine, everyday life. This episode offers a candid, often funny, but ultimately hopeful “behind the scenes” look at balancing ministry, friendship, and emotional health.

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For more information about Victory Church or ways to connect, visit victory.com.

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Hi, everybody.

[B]

My name is John. My name is Arvin. This is behind the Scenes, our best days, season 1111. And we just want to say we're so glad that you guys are here that you decided to join us.

[A]

Thanks for watching.

[B]

Yes, thank you. And hopefully you guys have been enjoying season 11.

[A]

I think so. Great feedback. Thank you for being so kind.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Well, you know, one thing that we're recording this in the spring of 20, 20, 26, there's so many times where I just want to do a big sigh of relief of being like, wow. A lot going on.

[A]

Totally. Yeah.

[B]

It's not bad.

[A]

A lot of good. Yes.

[B]

Someone I was talking to the other day, they were like, they, they work here at Victory Church. They said that they don't drink coffee. And I was like, what do you do? And they're like, well, I don't do energy drinks and I don't do coffee. And I was like, what? I mean, do you do drugs? Like, how do you.

[A]

I was going to make that joke. Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. They must be on drugs.

[B]

And I'm just like, what's going on? Oh, okay. For clarity, they're not doing drugs.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But I was like, how do you stay awake? You know, with. We've just had a lot of things going on here within the ministry, which is not a bad thing. Like, we're coming towards the end of the year where we have the school graduation, the college graduation. It's. We're wrapping up connect groups, Spring connect groups before launching into summer Connect groups.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And with the schools in and of itself, just the Bible, college and the school, there's so many end of year things.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

That you're just like, wow, this is a lot. And you're also having to get out information of, like, what's to come in the summer. It's like, this is something to look forward to. This is something, Something to sign up for. If any of you work at an organization or a ministry, you guys know that the cyclical seasons are a thing. So I was like, what do you do? And this person said, oh, I just take a cold shower in the morning.

[A]

Very nice.

[B]

And I was like, oh, I guess it's like cold plunging for a poor man's cold plunging.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[B]

But anyways, I, I mean, what do you guys do to wake up?

[A]

Huh?

[B]

We. We've gotten off of. Initially. We have a fridge in our room.

[A]

Yeah, we do.

[B]

We got. I got away from bangs.

[A]

Yeah, good call. That stuff scares me.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Energy drinks scare me. I mean, People like them. I'm sure.

[B]

But dude, I coach, so I help coach in school. And there are kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That will be like, oh, I had three monsters.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm just like, oh, my.

[A]

Yeah. I can't imagine. Yeah, they're poor little beating hearts.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At like 16 and 17 years old.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So we switched. We switched to another energy drink, and it's green tea extract type of thing.

[A]

More natural.

[B]

It's called aspire.

[A]

Good.

[B]

Anyways, they're not really, you know, they're not supporting us in any way. But I'm just saying, if you guys look it up, A S P I, R E. Yeah. It doesn't taste bad. It's got 80 grams of caffeine.

[A]

Nice. So bad.

[B]

But yeah, you get a couple of those.

[A]

I've never had one. Really? I've only had Red Bull. I think that's it. I've never had an energy drink besides that.

[B]

You've never had one?

[A]

I've just never had interest. I love coffee. Yes. And I love, like, dark black coffee. Like cold brew.

[B]

Like, you know, I can't drink coffee in the afternoons.

[A]

I can't either because it'll mess me up. I'll have sparkling water in the afternoon. If I go somewhere and that wakes you up. Oh, I don't do anything to wake up. I don't even drink coffee to wake up.

[B]

Good for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Someone told me that coffee blocks your receptors.

[A]

Interesting. Like, oh. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So does that. The signal telling you you're tired is turned off. Yes.

[B]

So they're like. It's really not really. Like, that's what they told me.

[A]

Energy. That's true. Yeah. I will say I do cold plunge in the morning.

[B]

Cold plunge.

[A]

That will with.

[B]

With a cold brew.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I'll have a cold brew in the morning and I'll cold plunge and five minutes, 41 degrees this morning, and you're set. You're just wired. It feels great. Your blood's going.

[B]

Okay. So one thing that we do. Okay. We have been here at Victory for a long time. We, like we said, Victory's been here for 45 years. We celebrated our anniversary and we're really grateful for it. But being here, you meet so many people. Not even people that work here, but people that are like, hey, man, I'm all in. They're at Victory to get ministered to for a season and then they leave. So yesterday was so strange because I was involved in this thing to where some people from the past like Victory from the past, and they are creating like some film project. And they asked me to be involved. And I have not spoken with these individuals in years. We didn't have a falling out. There was nothing bad that happened, but it was just like, oh, you guys want me to help? And they're like, yeah, yeah, come and hang out. And. And as I was hanging out, I was like, wow, we're just old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was the thing we had in common, is that we were old, you know? And then after that last night, I take my kids, you know, to their mom's house, and I see. I see Reese's across the street, and I go, okay, I'm gonna go to the Reese's. I go in, I see another guy who was extremely involved with us in our production world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's like, oh, I'm with this other guy now, and we have our film company. And I was like, great. And he goes, yeah, I'll call you. I'll call you. And I go, you know what? You don't have to. And he's like, no, no, no, we need to catch up. And I go. And I ask him, I go, what are we gonna catch up about?

[A]

What?

[B]

About what?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I go, you told me that you're doing a film thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's awesome. Yeah. Genuinely happy for you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But also, what would we catch up about?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was like, well, just life. And I go, we're old. Like, I haven't robbed a bank. I haven't done anything exciting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like I'm gonna say. Yeah. And I think what's funny is, like, whenever you catch up with people that maybe you knew at one point, this is how the. This is how every conversation goes. It goes, dude, so what are you up to, man? Like, what are you up to right now? And you're like, well, work. And then kids. No way. And then. And then these people, they pretend like they're impressed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then they. And then I go, well, what are you up to? And then they go, dude, like, work and kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I go, great. I'm gonna go walk into some traffic. I don't know what else to say.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. You go, same high five. Yeah.

[B]

A little peck on the cheek. And then you walk.

[A]

Forehead. Yep.

[B]

Kiss on the forehead. I go, bless you. And then I. And I drive off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But anyway. And I think that what's funny is whenever you work at a ministry, there are relationships that you are involved in for ministry purposes. But. But another thing behind the scenes is, is that, like, sometimes you have no issue with that person but you're just not friends.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you see them, you're friendly. You're friendly to them.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But in my mind, like, what is a friend? A friend is someone who's like, okay, I want what is best for you. I'm connected with you. You know, we share some, like, I don't know, some private conversations. Like, I don't know.

[A]

Like, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so whenever I see another individual and they go, no, no, like, I should call you. We should catch up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At my. Because I said, first off, I said that I'm old at 41. In my mind, I go, I don't want to. I'm at the age where I don't want to spend money to go to a lunch to catch up with someone, even if I like that individual. And I want the best for that individual.

[A]

For sure.

[B]

But I. I go, they're in a different season where they have good friends.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're not struggling. I'm at a place where I am grateful for my friends, and I don't feel like I'm struggling right now. Like, yeah. You know, great. So why do we need to meet up?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is that bad, guys? Is that bad?

[A]

It's practical.

[B]

Is it practical?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is anyone else. Those of you guys who are listening, do you feel like that? Do you feel like, okay, I just don't have capacity for another friend. And maybe the person is not even wanting to be a close friend. They're just looking for a point of contact. And I'm like, what we just had in the grocery store was that point of contact.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And so the next thing I think that sometimes people feel, the whole purpose of today is I want you guys to feel a release.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A release to say hi and then not catch up.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. Great to see you. Yeah.

[B]

Catch up is for Heinz.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's a dumb. That's a diner joke.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But anyways, like, I feel like you can be. You can work in ministry, you can work for ministry, and you can see people and you can have a genuine care for them, but not want to catch up. And it doesn't mean you're a bad person.

[A]

Of course not. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree.

[B]

But what's this lie in the back of my head that's like, oh, no, no. You should invite them to the pumpkin patch in October.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It gets real tricky because it's like what God wants to do in a person's life. Restoration, healing, emotional needs that haven't been met, fathering, etc. A person in a ministry position, whether or not they want to. And typically, if you've been in ministry longer than 30 minutes, you don't want to be that person for people anymore. Like, at first you have a messiah complex, and then very quickly you're like, I'm not.

[B]

What's a messiah complex?

[A]

We just think you should be. You should make everyone's needs met all the time. You should be, whether you're the one entertaining them, or you're the one telling them what they should do with their life, or you're the one that listens to the.

[B]

So whether you're a care pastor or whether you work with setup crew, or whether you work in the youth ministry or even in the creative department or you work like, yeah, you have this. Like, sometimes the reason why we get into it is that we want to help people.

[A]

Sure. Absolutely.

[B]

And you have a care for people, and you're like, well, the Bible says that. And then the third thing that you believe in that maybe is not necessarily biblical, is I have to be all things for all people. Even though Paul wrote that.

[A]

Yeah. That context of how he wrote that meant something very different than what we're using it as. I remember correctly. He's talking about appealing to. He's talking to different ethnicities. He's talking to people with different belief systems. He's talking to the Athenians and the different gods that he's like, yeah, I'm all things to all men. Meaning, like, there's no topic that you're gonna share with me that I'm gonna go. I. Get away from me. I don't want to deal with that. Like, no, I'm all things to all men, meaning I'm. I'm here.

[B]

You're like, so even though you believe a certain way, you can talk to a liberal and a conservative, even if you disagree with them.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. All the people I admire, whenever I hear them, how they interact with people that are not in the Christian faith, that disagree with them on everything entirely, you're like this person, as far as I'm perceiving it, could have a conversation with the devil and walk away the same and be fine and not be. You know what I mean?

[B]

And not be coerced or manipulated because they're givers.

[A]

They are not necessarily there to interact with the person and take from them. Because if you're a taker, you have to limit your. You have to live in a bubble, otherwise you'll end up.

[B]

Wait a second, hold on. Hold on wait, I think we're getting somewhere right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you just said. Sorry, guys. We're gonna circle back to what we were talking about with relational dynamics within ministry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But we're also gonna get there. Like, this is a rabbit trail to the main trail. Okay. So stay with the shortcut.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Shortcut.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or long cut.

[A]

A director's cut.

[B]

A director's. Nice movie reference. Okay, shut up. But what you were saying was, when you're a taker.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How does one know if they're a taker? Like, now you're making me feel convicted.

[A]

It's just that, like, the environment you're in, it's really the classic sermon illustration of thermostat, thermometer. Like, you take the environment that you're in into yourself and think, okay, how do I succeed in this space? How do I whatever. Versus. If you're interacting with someone and you're like, okay, so I'm just observing, first and foremost, I'm no longer. And if you're in ministry for longer than 30 minutes, you go, I am. I can't be the Messiah. For this person, Jesus is a sufficient messiah and they don't want to deal with him, so that's fine. If they don't want to deal with them, I'm not going to be any better. So then when you get past that, you go, okay, I'm going to be a giver in the sense that I can give my attention. I can give the interaction we're having. I can give this limited amount. I'm a steward over that. And if they want to steward that, well, that's wonderful. But when a person necessarily, unintentionally has an interaction and then they are a taker, they're like, now I want this from you. Now I want this as well. Not only do I want your attention, I want you to father me, I want you to husband me, I want you to this me. And it's those that sound so crazy. But that's the majority of what is happening relationally all the time. Not just ministry wide.

[B]

Not just ministry. Like, even, okay, some of you guys, if you work like an 8 to 5 or you have a job or maybe you are a coach and, you know.

[A]

Great example. Yeah.

[B]

And you know, this parent is coming up to you after practice. The feeling that you have in your stomach, that's what tells you if they're a giver or taker.

[A]

They're a taker. They're a taker.

[B]

You are in the lobby, they're in. You're in the lobby at church after service.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Someone is walking towards you and the feeling that you have to either walk towards them or to act like you didn't see them. And then dodge into the boys bathroom, step on top of the commode to make sure when they look underneath the stall. Because this person would.

[A]

They will.

[B]

They would look underneath to see if you're in there. And they would talk to you while you're doing your business. That's the type of personality this person is. But you do that to avoid them. That gut feeling is the. You can call it the Holy Spirit. You can call it Jiminy Cricket.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You can call it your conscious, that individual. You're like, oh, that's what a giver and a taker is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

There is an individual. And I'm. And I will not say names to protect the innocent. You guys wouldn't know this person anyways, but this person. I don't know if they had a. What does ESP mean?

[A]

I think it's. Is that like telepathy where you can read minds?

[B]

Something to. Where it's like you sense.

[A]

Oh, okay. Yeah, I like to be. The word I hear a lot now is empath. Empath.

[B]

Empath.

[A]

I'm an empath. Okay.

[B]

Okay. I don't know if this person was. If this person had a sixth sense or what. This individual growing up who worked at this ministry, every time our family was having Friday night family nights, we were watching a movie and my mom would make a meal. Now, I will say this, I love my mom, Pastor Sharon. She would always put on too much salt on her fried okra or she would burn cookies. It was one or the other. Like we would have okra fried. Ok. I know it's such a random thing, but we would have fried okra on Friday nights with something. If it was pizza, we would have fried okra. Is that Arkansas?

[A]

That's like Arkansas.

[B]

I guess it's Arkansas.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

My mom also grew up eating squirrel, which is a whole nother thing.

[A]

Wonderful.

[B]

But anyways, we would have this awesome time. And then my dad did not watch movies. Like, he didn't watch tv. He would watch sports. And then he just was like an individual that was. Would walk around and play.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

Walk around and pray. Or he would want to like, play basketball. He would want to be active.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Like, he just wasn't. So Friday nights to me was a special night because I loved movies and it was the night where all of us got to watch a movie together. And this woman who worked at Victory did not know it, but without fail, would call in the middle of the movie at the best part. And this woman, to me, I was like, I'm so mad at you. Because we would pause the movie and my mom would talk about the worship set for the weekend service. And she would be like, no, I actually think we should do my portion, which is a worship song from, like, Maranatha music. I actually think we should do that for the third song and for offering. We can do, you know. Great. Are you God?

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

And then. Well, wait a second. I thought the choir was going to wear sequence blue. Yeah, they're wearing sequence red. The conversations that would happen on the phone during movie time, my dad would just stand there and he'd rock back and forth and he'd be like, guys, who wants to go on a walk? And I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I would go, we are watching this movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would be 12 years old, and I would unplug the phone.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I go, mom, stop talking to this individual about the worship set.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She calls every Friday night. You need to inform her. Well, I informed her, but, John, we have to talk about it because on Saturday we're gonna have our Saturday night service. I was like, have her call on Thursdays, Friday nights.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, this individual does not know that they're a taker.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

And I was like, it was insane to me that I picked up on it when I was in, like, fourth or fifth grade. And it made me have bitterness towards this individual. And what's funny is that this individual was so kind and nice.

[A]

I'm sure.

[B]

And every time they're like, hey, John. I would be like. I wouldn't even say hi.

[A]

I would just go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You ruined family time.

[A]

No, sure, sure.

[B]

Unbeknownst.

[A]

But that's how a child would feel about it, you know, I wouldn't expect a kid to be like, well, I

[B]

need to have some, you know, but what wants. Anyways, I only bring up that example.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that some people do not know that they're taking.

[A]

The worst taker is the one who is convinced they're a giver.

[B]

That is funny.

[A]

They're just. But they're not gonna listen. They're just here to give you what you need to hear. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That is a very funny observation. I just.

[A]

This is a category of my life. I never thought I'd ever talk about the number of Times. And I don't know how to tell people this, because if I've seen a movie or if I've read a book or whatever, when people come to me and go, you need to read this book. And I go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I go, they didn't think the millisecond. They didn't take the millisecond to go, have you read this book? Do you know this author? Do you. You know, because I'm sitting there hearing them misquote a book that they're. That I've read. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They go, here, you got it, you got it.

[B]

Do you guys know, those of you guys who are listening, watching. Has that ever happened to you where you have someone and they go, you need to watch this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You need to read this. Oh, I'm sending you a podcast right now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Those of you who are listening and watching Hand on the Bible, how often do you watch that movie? I want you to be honest with me right now.

[A]

That's very funny.

[B]

I want. I want you. How often do you read that book? How often do you listen to that podcast?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I think it's time for you guys to be honest. I think it's time for you guys to be givers.

[A]

Yeah. And it does depend on the source.

[B]

Oh, that is true.

[A]

If someone tells me, if you gave me a book, I'd go, I'm reading this book. But, yeah, most of the time it's like, if you're a giver. If you're a real giver, then you just before. And I don't know if it was the.

[B]

I like what you just said about a question. Have you read.

[A]

Have you read it? Or just the thought of, like, is the world experiencing things when I experience it, or have they. Have they potentially, you know, and just because. And then you feel terrible to be like, oh, yeah, I've read it. When they're talking and they go, oh, oh, okay. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that.

[B]

It's like when someone. It was like back in the day, people used to make. They used to have funny memes where it was like the feeling that you get when you see. Send someone a funny reel and they go, seen it, Seen it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay. Well, you brought that on yourself. You should have started with, have you seen this reel?

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

And that way you can protect your feelings.

[A]

That's another reason to not be online, because then Everything people show you, you get to enjoy for the first time. And you go, that's wonderful. That's so funny. Oh, wow. That's so funny.

[B]

So you're proponent for not being online?

[A]

I am, big time. I think I'm indifferent to the online thing. Or I was having this comment with a friend about AI. They were like, are you for. And I was like, it's a tool. I'm not for or against a hammer. And I'm not for or against a scalpel. Like, it's a. I am. Whose hand is it?

[B]

You know whose hand is it?

[A]

Yeah, it's the same with social media. So far, social media has been used like a hammer to really do some harm. Especially I'm raising a daughter with my wife. It's like, like girls 8 to 15. Giving them social media is the worst. Is like introducing them to the most wanted criminal in the world. It's just the most terrible thing. Yeah, it's awful what it does to the female brain. It's terrible for men too, but it's esoteric and exoteric. Men who.

[B]

What does that mean? Esoteric?

[A]

Internal, external. So for a lot of men who spend too much time online become violent toward others. Girls who spend too much time online become violent towards themselves. And I literally. I mean, violent, literally.

[B]

Did you guys hear that?

[A]

Those.

[B]

Yeah, listening.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole like Andrew Tate thing. And then you have insert the problem of the lack of fathering that happened in the, you know, whatever generation until now. And so a lot of men are looking to these dudes for fathering. And then a lot of women are looking for like, leadership guidance, whatever. How am I supposed to be? How am I supposed to act? How am I supposed to dress? And then you add the Christianese to both of them and it gets really weird. And that's what got me to go. I don't wanna. I'm good. I'm such a better version of myself

[B]

without being online on social media. Yeah.

[A]

I'm online like, I love you. I pay for YouTube. I love it. I really enjoy it. You know, I read a lot.

[B]

But like, you're talking about social media.

[A]

Yeah, Specifically Instagram, Everything Zuckerberg has made. God bless him. May he. I don't know, I don't want to say there, but like, I almost said maybe recipes, but I meant that in like, you're dead to me kind of way. Not that you're dead. Yeah. That's so mean. Sorry.

[B]

No, that's okay.

[A]

Hey, someone on staff and meta is gonna, you know, whatever.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. I just think, yeah, it's like building a bomb and then being like, oh, yeah. If you click this box and say you're 13 or older, you can play with this bomb.

[B]

That's a great allegory.

[A]

Yeah. Is that the word analogy? Whatever.

[B]

And an analogy.

[A]

That's what I mean.

[B]

Yes. Here's a bomb. If you click that you're 13, you can.

[A]

You're allowed to play with it. Yeah. Here's every piece of pornography in the history of humanity. Just click this button or do this thing, get a vpn, and it's all ready.

[B]

So how many of you guys are actually. Have a bomb right now?

[A]

Yeah. You're watching this on Factory.

[B]

Yeah. On the bomb Factory. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if you guys really want. If you want to make it as, you know, straight and narrow like that, I think that the good thing that we have the opportunity to do is one thing that we've talked about is the more. And we're a big proponent of this and behind the scenes of our Best Days podcast is we're a big proponent for. Okay. Introspecting. Intro. Introspection.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Of.

[A]

Right. All right.

[B]

Lord, help me judge myself before it's gonna have to happen through someone else, through something else, or you do it. So, Lord, and it doesn't mean that we beat up on ourselves. I mean, I definitely do, but it doesn't mean too beat up on yourselves. But it is. Okay. Lord, there are some things that need to shift and change on the inside of me. Help me continue to use wisdom. Yeah, God, give me insight.

[A]

Right.

[B]

All of those. All of those prayers. It really comes down to prayer and reflection time.

[A]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. That's what makes you a giver, by the way, because then you have something to give. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even if it's a pace thing. Like these days when I'm having a convo with somebody, I'll hear my internal talk.

[B]

Will.

[A]

Just. If I'm reacting too fast to what they're saying.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I just hear myself go, hey, slow down. Like, react slower to what they're saying. Like, let them talk more, you know, because I get excited and I want to jump in and then I go, hold on. No, no, no. Like, you know, let them. The point of what you're communicating here is the more important thing, and this is going back to friendship and relationship and having the energy to do this for your friends.

[B]

Is.

[A]

Is what they're saying all that important, or is the fact that they're speaking to me important? Because there's so Many topics that are like.

[B]

Hold on, hold on.

[A]

Say that again.

[B]

This is for all of us who are in a friendship or a relationship. This is not just for pastors. This is not just.

[A]

Yeah. This is meeting knowing people, period.

[B]

Say it again.

[A]

Is what they're saying important? It's not as much of a big deal as the fact that they're speaking to me is important, because there are a lot of things people will say, and you're like, I don't care about that.

[B]

And it's like, it doesn't matter if

[A]

you hear that they and I are talking. That's the thing, you know?

[B]

And I think that that type of communion community.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is something that gives life.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Because you're like, really? We could be going deep in about, like, what's the most fear fierce. A flathead turtle or a roundhouse snapping turtle. Like, it could be about the most random thing.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You. Conspiracy theories about Mattress King. Hey. Like, it could. It's not about what. It's about who. It's really important that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're talking.

[A]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

And the conversation is more important than the content conversation.

[A]

Yeah. And old people will teach you that because they can talk about random stuff, but it's really that camaraderie that you're. I'll watch my dad talk to his best friend. And they've both lived through leaving the Middle East. They've survived prison. They've survived all these things.

[B]

Assassination.

[A]

Yeah. All this crazy stuff has gone on in their life. And they're just talking about their dogs, and they just love, like, well, my dog does this. And you go, that's fantastic. What's happening here?

[B]

And I bet that's such a refreshing.

[A]

It is. Yeah.

[B]

Thing to just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We have seen some crap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But here we are talking about our dogs.

[A]

Yeah. Having some coffee or tea and just talking. Yeah. That part of friendship is important to get to, and many ministry contexts lack that. And that's where it's like. That's what's missing is that it's constant. Like, if there's a line, if you have a savior complex, that everyone who has trauma, like, is literally or figuratively emotionally bleeding right then and there. You become an ER person with your emotions, and then after a while, you're like, I don't want to be around people. I don't want to. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, okay. So what you're saying is. I'm just gonna reiterate what you just said. Basically, you're saying whenever you are working in the behind the scenes of a ministry is whenever you're in the ER of ministry, we actually have a. We actually had a ministry for a long time at Victory called God's er.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was about basically doing surgery from the inside out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, of the heart through. Through scripture and prayer and therapy and counseling. When you're in the ER and people are bleeding on you and you're in that a lot and you don't take time to Then refill.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You get to a point where you're like, I don't want to be around people anymore. I'm burned out of ministry.

[A]

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And so it's important to have those moments where you're having conversations about dogs and about Netflix shows.

[A]

Totally. Absolutely.

[B]

Things that are mindless.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I think that. That it's like what you said, it's not the content more than just the connection.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

You know, we grew up. Those of you who are listening. My mom and dad started Victory. Pastor Billy Jones, Sharon Doherty. And one time my dad passed away of cancer, you know, years ago. And in that, my mom took over and then Paul and Ashley took over. And the one thing that I really think has kept. Kept Paul and Ashley, our pastors, is that they have friends that they can be friends around and not pastors.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Around.

[A]

It's a big deal.

[B]

It's a huge deal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My dad did not have that. I think that they were from a certain generation that it was like, okay, you don't necessarily talk about feelings. You sweep it under the river rug because there's work to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I will say my mom and dad, they accomplished a lot within the ministry of Victory. God did miracles and amazing things that we would not be here without them. But I remember after my. My. My mom, after my dad passed away, I remember my mom telling me and Paul, I actually talked to Pastor Paul, which is my brother. I talked to him this morning. We have a Wednesday mornings. We have a connect group and. And it's me and Paul and two other guys where it is that friendship time to. Where you have a. It like it's genuinely like we. Obviously there is prayer, but it is like a friendship talk more than ministry or gang. What's a big deal? And I. And I was talking to Paul and I was like, do you remember when mom told me. Us that at one point, like, my dad was like, he told my mom, he said, sharon, I feel so alone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, that's so sad because you wouldn't have known it sure. Because my dad was always. I mean, he was basically. He kind of gave a politician vibes. Like, he was a. He was. He was very accessible to everyone. You know, the Dream center, the school, the college, the camp, the church, you know, and while we were meeting at the maybe center. And he was a interim college president at Oral Roberts University.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. Like, while he was building a building.

[B]

While he was building a building across the street for Victory Church. And he was just accessible to everyone. He would pray with everyone. But yet there was a moment where. And we found this out after he pastored. He was like, sharon, I feel so alone.

[A]

And.

[B]

And she told. And, you know, she was emotional when she was telling us this. And I'm not telling. I'm not giving you guys any tea.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That I wouldn't say from a stage.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Or Pastor Paul wouldn't say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I was like, my dad, to me, he was a hero, because I

[A]

was like, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, he lost his temper. He wasn't perfect, but he was. He was such a man of God and such a man of intellectual integrity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my mom was like, well, Billy Joe, you have me. You know, and she felt like, well, maybe I'm not enough, you know, for my husband. And, you know, we're in this together. Like, I'm your best friend. But I think that he needed a guy.

[A]

Sure. Yeah.

[B]

Guy to. And there was.

[A]

There was.

[B]

He had accountability partners. But accountability partner is not necessarily a friend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Someone that you can talk about your dog with.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

Like, anytime my dad had a conversation, it was like, what God is doing. And again, that's not bad. But that's also just not real connection.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Like it said in Genesis that God would walk in the garden of the cool of the day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

God would just go on walks. And then he was like, where is Adam and Eve? But what I'm getting to is that I believe that God is big enough that he doesn't just need us to talk about game planning for ministry or, you know, what's the next move or what's God put on your heart? Sometimes it's just about the conversation and friendship.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And some of you listening, you go, well, you know, easy for you to say because you two are friends. I don't have anyone. And that's a real issue in 2026.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I believe. Yeah. Being known.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Being known. And I believe those of you who are listening or watching God has something, someone for you. I Do believe it that he has a, a certain someone for you that wants that you are to be known by.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Arvin, how would, how would the. An individual go about finding that?

[A]

I mean, thankfully there are services here at Victory several times a week. Like, if I'm honest, that's. Yeah. One of the, If I can only speak from my experience, I would say that the constant week to week interaction with church, that is one of the last places in society where like anybody can come, especially a Victory. Like, there's no essence in the air of like, well, you know, you're not cool enough or you're not wealthy enough or you're not. And there are places like that in the world. It's unfortunate and hopefully their ministries continue to succeed. But it's like at Victory you're, you can. The fact that like, it is not an arbitrary thing that there are door greeters at every door at Victory. You know what I mean? Like, so to answer the question, it's like if you genuinely do not have any camaraderie with anybody in your workplace or you don't have a workplace or you work from home or you're a lonely person or whatever, like come, come to church and then. And be a taker for a while before you start. You know, it's just so there are

[B]

times you can be a taker.

[A]

I mean, you can't be a real giver unless you know how to take properly. What are you giving people if you're not? You know what I mean? Yeah. And so adventure, yes, you're going to get connected to God, but then you also need to be connected to people and you need to have like, folks that are there regularly knowing what's going on with you and you know what's going on with them. And that's why there's groups and that's why there's all these, these opportunities. And then after a while, like, what's really cool is when you're in a position where you get to be a giver but you feel like you're taking because you love it so much because you're like, there's a cyclical pattern of like, oh, I volunteer with this group or I get to do this thing or I get to be there. And it feels so good to give help to other people or to give resources, other people to be a part of what's happening here that I leave like I'm taking and you realize this is the principle God has been wanting humanity to understand is that I will fill the cup and then you pour it out on others and then just try, I'll keep doing it. And if Pastor Bruce Edwards used to say, if he can get it through you, he'll get it to you. And they may have been speaking in the context of giving financially, which is absolutely true, but I think it's true in many other ways as well, where it's like the areas at Victory, where I am a giver financially or in my work, like, the quality of work that I give, I feel like I'm taking. And that's what it feels like to be like in ministry and in the flow state. And you're like, well, I'm not called. I'm not called to be on stage. I'm not called to hold the mic or preach sermons, but I have no qualms with that, because the thing I'm called to, it feels like I'm taking. Wow. But I get to give. And then there are fruit that is made. So that's the beauty of church. And if you're a person who's like, well, no, me and God, I have quiet time. I have podcasts, I have devos. It's all like, I get all that. But it's like, what's all that for? You're gonna sit in your house or your apartment, and you receive from 50 different pastors, and you read all their books, and you know the Bible and you know the languages, and then where are you giving to? Whom are you giving? You know, so that's where I would tell a person, you know, get involved.

[B]

Yeah, get involved. Is. It is a true thing. What's really beautiful that I'm very grateful for. Thank you for sharing that, Arvind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's really beautiful that I'm grateful for is if someone comes to Victory, I go. Two things before you leave. Yeah, Actually, three things. At Victory, stay long enough to get hurt. Because if you can stay until you're hurt or offended, then you can be like, I think that you have an opportunity for growth.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, but that's at every church, but specifically. So stay long enough to get hurt. Secondly, do a Victory production.

[A]

Do one. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Do one Victory production. Be involved and your friendship issues will disappear. You'll have plenty of opportunities of getting close with someone. And then the last one. Go on a missions trip.

[A]

For sure. Yeah.

[B]

Like people who do. Who go on. And Victory has missions trips globally. They also have relief work trips where they go to places that have been hit by a hurricane or a tornado, whether it's Missouri or. Or Louisiana.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or like, like, and then the global trips, whether it is to Ghana or to Brazil, like, yeah, you will find a connection and those friendships. So anyways, I believe that, you know, the, the plan God has for your friend can be found in God's house.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So anyways, that's what we want to encourage you with. Yeah, but I mean, I know we kind of went a lot of different directions, but I think that, you know, the whole reason why we love this podcast is we love talking about things you can't necessarily always talk from a podium from.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But a behind the scenes look at, yes, Victory is a larger ministry, but it's also filled with humans just like you, for sure. People who are not perfect just like you. And we have a desire, yes, to help people, but also to live a life that is full, that is not miserable or burned out or, you know, burdened with things that God has never asked us to carry. You know, like, we want both. Yes, we want to help people, but we also don't want to be their messiah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We need a messiah, us, people who work at the church. And we also need a life to where it's like, okay, I want to be a good dad, and when it's time to get remarried, I want to be a good spouse and those things. But the only way to do that is to be able to receive, to have those life giving friendships and relationships. And I know that I was being comedic about takers and give, you know, if you don't know what it is, if that was over your head, that's okay. I think that you'll pick up on it. And like Arvin said, when you learn how to take in the right way, then it sets you up for being in those giving relationships.

[A]

Totally, totally. I agree. Wonderful.

[B]

Thank you guys so much for listening.

[A]

Appreciate it. We love you. We'll see you next time.

[B]

See you next time. Bye.