Best Days Podcast | Season 11 Episode 8

Summary

Podcast Summary: Victory Church — Best Days Podcast | Season 11, Episode 8

Date: May 13, 2026
Hosts: John & Arvin
Location: Victory Church, Tulsa, OK

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Episode Overview

In this candid and insightful episode, John and Arvin take listeners behind the scenes at Victory Church during a season of transition — graduations, staff changes, and preparations for summer camps. The conversation expands to explore deeper themes around organizational integrity, the reality of church administration, misconceptions about ministry, and the importance of humility and wisdom when claiming to follow God’s call. Through humor, personal anecdotes, and candid reflections, the hosts challenge common assumptions about faith and leadership, offering practical wisdom for listeners navigating seasons of change or discerning their spiritual calling.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Victory’s Transitional Season: Endings and New Beginnings

• Graduations & Summer Preparation: The episode opens with John detailing the busy season at Victory:
  • Multiple graduations (Victory College, Victory Christian School Pre-K–12, Kindergarten)
  • Summer camps launching at various locations (Victory’s camp in Manford, Tulsa Dream Center, and sports camps at the school)
  • Staff transitions due to expiring contracts and onboarding for summer roles
    • [03:36] “There’s a circle going on… You’re tying a bow at the end of things but you’re also having to prepare for summer, which is a different type of busy.” — John

2. Church as an Organization: Myths vs. Reality

• Administrative Realities: They discuss the “boring” but necessary organizational processes like HR changes, onboarding, new staff orientation (Victory Way), facilities management, and legal compliance.
• Countering the ‘Church = Only Spiritual’ Myth:
  • “Victory is also a business and an organization. Totally. It has to be. Otherwise, you get weird.” — Arvin [06:41]
  • Arvin explains the risks of disregarding organizational structures, likening it to the dysfunction of cults or “mafia” finance models.
• Accountability and Integrity: Victory Church emphasizes IRS compliance and transparent stewardship.
  • “Victory voluntarily is like, ‘hey IRS, look at everything. That way we can stay integris.’” — John [09:09]
  • “Jesus said, I didn’t come to break the law, I came to fulfill the law.” — John [09:17]

3. Misusing the ‘Voice of God’: Discernment and Wisdom

• Dangers of Over-Spiritualizing Decisions:
  • Cautionary stories of people making major, unplanned life changes (“God told me to rent a stadium/start a mega ministry/move to Dallas”) with little preparation or wisdom.
  • [15:36] “That’s so interesting that what God — God only tells you to do the thing that’s super convenient for you, that you wanted to do anyway...” — Arvin
• Wisdom over Impulse: Encouragement to match spiritual discernment with practical planning.
  • “If you are not currently doing the thing on a small scale of what you feel like God has told you on a large scale, I think things are out of order.” — John [28:54]

4. Learning to Hear God’s Voice: Humility and Growth

• Real-Life Examples:
  • Arvin shares about his youthful zeal, believing God had spoken to him directly about a relationship, only to realize he might have misheard.
  • [18:14 & repeated 18:14] “I was so disappointed in myself for thinking I had heard God ... I just hope you’re not as disappointed in me as I am in myself for thinking I heard you and being wrong.” — Arvin
• The Process of Discernment:
  • God knows we’ll make mistakes, and humility is key to course correction.
  • “Pride sucks ... the Lord keeps his distance from the proud.” — Arvin [18:40]
• Guidelines for Discernment:
  • If someone uses “God told me…” as leverage to demand something from others, “that’s not what God wants.” [20:13]
  • Authentic spiritual direction is confirmed over time, often in hindsight, and is not a tool for manipulation.

5. The Value of Small Beginnings

• Faithfulness over Fame:
  • The first miracle is rarely “feeding the 5,000”; most beginnings are humble.
  • “Never despise small beginnings ... Hating what is forming you isn’t going to get you anywhere.” — John [25:44]
• Motivations in Ministry: The hosts reflect on their own early ministry efforts and the purity of those intentions before the pressures of status or recognition.

6. Responding to Failure and Scandal in Ministry

• Extending Grace to Fallen Leaders:
  • Rather than engaging in social media criticism, the hosts propose empathy and gratitude for those whose highly publicized failures serve as warnings for others.
  • “I am indebted to every single person who has fallen in ministry ... we are learning through their story.” — Arvin & John [36:33–37:24]
  • “Pray for them. Because, guess what — whatever it is that they did, they also are a child of God.” — John [37:09]

7. Returning to Purity of Heart in Ministry

• Anecdotes of Early Youth Ministry:
  • Touching stories of leading youth events focused on simple, pure motives: helping kids know Jesus, feel loved, and lead in their schools.
  • “We would love to be junior high youth pastors until the day we die ... it was just so pure.” — John [40:36]
• New Trends: Gen Z Returning to Church:
  • John recounts recent reports of Gen Z flocking back to church in authentic ways, signaling a rejuvenation of pure-hearted faith practices.
  • Example of the “Catholic Girl Stroll” in NYC — young adults eating pizza then filling Catholic Mass to overflowing. [43:37]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [06:43] Arvin: "I believe in church and state being separate, but ... the accounting and payroll, it can't be a mafia thing. That's like, no, we just all listen to God, whatever God says... That's what a cult is."
• [09:09] John: "Victory voluntarily is like, 'hey IRS, look at everything.' That way we can stay integris."
• [15:36] Arvin: "That's so interesting that ... God only tells you to do the thing that's super convenient for you that you want to do anyway."
• [18:14] Arvin: "I was so disappointed in myself for thinking I had heard God ... I just hope you’re not as disappointed in me as I am in myself."
• [20:13] Arvin: "If a person is using the voice of God to validate their demand of you, that's not what God wants."
• [25:44] John: "It's rare that your first miracle will be feeding the 5,000 ... Never despise small beginnings."
• [36:33] Arvin: "I am indebted to every single person who has fallen in ministry. I'm grateful to them."
• [40:58] John: "It was just so pure. It was wonderful ... that was our motive, that was our MO."
• [42:30] John: "Let's just go back to purity of heart ... I think that is a beautiful thing."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:36] — The hectic spring/summer transition at Victory
• [06:41] — Why churches have to be organized, not just “spiritual”
• [09:08] — Accountability, IRS compliance, and biblical integrity
• [15:36] — Critique of using “God told me” to justify every decision
• [18:14] — Arvin’s vulnerable story of disappointment and missing God’s voice
• [20:13] — Warning about spiritual manipulation
• [25:44] — “Don’t despise small beginnings” and the value of humble starts
• [36:33] — Extending empathy and gratitude to fallen leaders
• [40:58] — Motivations in youth ministry and the return to purity of heart
• [43:31] — Gen Z’s renewed hunger for church and authentic spiritual connection

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Tone & Style

Warm and conversational, with humor, candor, and a willingness to challenge common church and ministry clichés. The hosts blend light-hearted anecdotes, practical insights, and moments of real vulnerability, creating an accessible and deeply authentic listening experience.

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For more information on Victory Church and their ministry, visit victory.com.

Transcript

[Arvin]

Hello. Hi.

[John]

Hello.

[Arvin]

Welcome back. Hi.

[John]

How are you?

[Arvin]

I was gonna say, well, hello, and then I said, welcome back.

[John]

Have you guys ever heard of the movie man of the House with Jonathan Taylor Thomas?

[Arvin]

Absolutely. Tim Allen, too?

[John]

No, not Tim Allen.

[Arvin]

That's a different one.

[John]

That's a different one. But Jonathan Taylor Thomas was his TV star.

[Arvin]

That's right. That was why I thought of him.

[John]

For those of you who are in your 40s, you know Jonathan Taylor Thomas.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Or maybe late 30s. Jonathan Taylor Thomas was like the 90s. Timothee Chalamet.

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. He had some Bieber to him.

[John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little bit anyway. But he only acted, right.

[Arvin]

No, yeah, but he was like the heartthrob.

[John]

But he was in this movie called man of the House. Look it up. And if you got kids, do I want you to show it to them? Maybe it's like, I don't know, maybe pre. Watch it as a mom and dad. Because I forget, you know, whenever you're like, oh, my kids would love Mighty Ducks. And then you show it to them, you're like, there's actually lots of cussing.

[Arvin]

Yeah. A PG movie used to cuss, dude.

[John]

PG movies in the 90s.

[Arvin]

That's right. They used to have some stuff like that.

[John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. To where I was like, now if you're down for your kids listening to cussing, all power to you.

[Arvin]

Yeah. Congratulations.

[John]

Congrats, World changers. World changers.

[Arvin]

World champions.

[John]

Anyways, but in the movie man of the House, there is this wildly, like, I feel like you couldn't do it today because it would be cultural appropriation. But they're like. They're a part of this Boy Scouts that is like, Native American.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

And they have, like, the feather and they have Native American names like Squatting Dog and Chevy Chase is in it.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

And while when they meet up, they go, hi, how are you? Jack. But that's how they say, hi, how are you?

[Arvin]

That was like a major studio movie back then.

[John]

Yeah. You would get canceled.

[Arvin]

You couldn't do it.

[John]

Don't cancel us.

[Arvin]

They wouldn't.

[John]

I'm repeating that's on a something. That's on a 90s movie.

[Arvin]

It's a quote.

[John]

But anyways. And then Chevy Chasey goes, fine, thanks. How are you?

[Arvin]

Wow. Yeah. Dude. You pull that off today.

[John]

Yeah.

[Arvin]

You would get in the room. That'd be a no. In the room. They go, can't do it.

[John]

Can't do it. Anyways. But we're not here to offend people. Maybe. I don't know. But not. Not on purpose and not that way.

[Arvin]

Yeah. If it happens by accident, that's fine.

[John]

But whatever you said at the beginning of this podcast when you were like,

[Arvin]

hi, how are you? That's what it made me. Hello.

[John]

Welcome. Anyways.

[Arvin]

Oh, man.

[John]

Hey. This is behind the scenes of our Best Days podcast. My name is John.

[Arvin]

My name is Arvin.

[John]

And this is a look behind the scenes and Victory Church, we absolutely love and champion our pastors Paul, Pastor Ashley, Pastor Paul and Pastor Ashley. And we're recording this in the spring of 2026. And yeah, we're. The things that are coming to an end is Victory College has their graduation. Victory Christian School Pre K through 12 is getting their graduation. The kindergarten graduation is happening. Yeah. We're all in preparation for summer. You see here at Victory, because camp kicks off, which is. We have a. We have a camp in Manford, Oklahoma, and then Tulsa Dream center, their day camps are kicking off. And then here at the school, we have summer camps that are, you know, sports driven. And so as something is coming to an end here at Victory, which is, you know, all these different schools, you're also getting ready for summer.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

And then Pastor Paul and Pastor Ashley, they go on a sabbatical for a few weeks in July. And so there's. You're tying the ribbon, you're tying a bow at the end of things, but you're also having to prepare for Summer is a different type of busy.

[Arvin]

That's right.

[John]

Where, like, other churches and ministries, they get busy around Easter and Christmas.

[Arvin]

Sure. Yeah.

[John]

Here is also Maysember.

[Arvin]

That's right.

[John]

I'm like, Maycember.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

But it's like. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're also getting like, the summer is a different beast.

[Arvin]

That's right. Yeah.

[John]

At least around here.

[Arvin]

Sure.

[John]

And so anyways, now, it's not bad. It is just. It is the way that it is.

[Arvin]

Yeah. Victory is not just a church. There's, like, a lot happening throughout the calendar year.

[John]

Right. And so. And you have people. You have teachers who are finishing their teaching. They're teaching in May, and everything is contract. So you sign a contract for. Okay, I am teaching basically end of July through the end of May, slash beginning of June.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

And then whether you decide to renew that contract or not, you know, then you would maybe go to another job. So we even have transitions.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

So here on staff, you have people who are like, I'm no longer going to be on staff as of the beginning of June. Doesn't mean you're fired. It's just your Contract is up.

[Arvin]

Sure.

[John]

You know, whether you decide to renew it or not.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Then you're also onboarding people in order to be camp counselors at Camp Victory. You're onboarding people to work for summer staff for the Dream Center. So it's just a unique.

[Arvin]

Yeah, there's always something. It's a cyclical thing. It's not linear. It's. There's a circle going on.

[John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so the behind the scenes of it is like, okay, everybody, Everyone is trying to get their things into hr because HR is like, hey, we're doing a cos, which is a change of stat. And this may sound boring to those of you listening and watching, but this is truly like, this is how it works. This is how it is.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

You know, and you have like, people who are. Who are hosting going away parties for people who are transitioning off of staff. Again, not for anything bad.

[Arvin]

It's just signal. Yeah.

[John]

And then you're also doing this thing called Victory Way. Victory Way is where you have new hires.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Walking through. They go through growth track. They go through this onboarding process. And the final thing is Victory Way, where they're like, they're learning the culture and the physical layout of where do I go when I need. Fill in the blank for check wrecks, for pos, for counseling with Pastor Ryan and Jill's office, for basically, where do I need to go in order to get money? Where's the lounge for the people working here? Who do I go to for facility setup? How do I enter in things into upkeep if I have a leak in my roof?

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

This all sounds so boring, but this is like, people forget that Victory is also a business and an organization.

[Arvin]

Totally. It has to be. Otherwise you get weird.

[John]

Yes.

[Arvin]

I got into an argument with someone years ago because they. They were. They were saying churches shouldn't be businesses. And I was like, then what should they be? Like, black markets, underground. Like, that's what a cult is. That's what a lot of, like all the. You know what I mean?

[John]

Like, yeah, it's not just.

[Arvin]

No, there should be legalities around it. There should be like, yeah, I believe in church and state being separate, but I'm saying, like. Like the accounting and payroll. It can't be a mafia thing. That's like, no, we just all listen to God, whatever God says. We're just like. There have been examples of that in the past where people are like, oh, it's a theocracy. God just runs the church. And it's like, it's crazy that God only wants what's convenient for this one guy. That's a nuts situation. Right. And then he marries everybody and then it's David Koresh and you're like, wow, what God? What were you thinking there?

[John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny what people blame on God and it's like, okay, well, Victory is not a cult. And because we're not a cult, we do have to run an organization. We have to be stewards of what God has given. The vision that God gave Pastor Billy, Joe and Sharon, the vision that God gave Pastor Paul and Ashley for this current season, it's like, yes, exactly. Yeah. There is checks and balances.

[Arvin]

There should be. Absolutely.

[John]

There is. Like, anyways, not everything can be like, super spiritual and. Oh, I thought you guys just prayed and did Kumbaya.

[Arvin]

Yeah, that's not how it works. It shouldn't work that way.

[John]

Yeah, yeah. So anyways. But that's the current season and state that we are in. But bringing that up, have, you know, one thing that is unique to me. I have. There are some people in my life and I would say that they are friends and I am. And they have not been. They've not been around Victory for a few years. But the guiding of, like, what's weird is these individuals were talented. They still are talented. They're cool, they love God, but the way that they make decisions is not wisdom. And I think the whole reason why I wanted to open up this podcast and explain to you guys that even the church has to be accountable. Like, lol. The IRS is coming whether you're ready or not. So it's like, okay, well, you're going to be audited every single year. Victory voluntarily is like, hey, irs, look at everything. That way we can stay integris.

[Arvin]

That's right.

[John]

Know where every cent is going.

[Arvin]

That's right.

[John]

You know, so that way if people. And I feel like that is what. Because Victory is honored. That like Jesus said, I didn't come to break the law. I came to fulfill the law.

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John]

So even the JC man in the New Testament was not like, hey, you don't need to pay taxes. Like, abide by your own rules and only tithe.

[Arvin]

Right.

[John]

You know, it's like, hey, get render under seizures. What is seizures?

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah. And I'll provide for that.

[John]

And I'll provide for that.

[Arvin]

And he did. Yeah.

[John]

And you know, what is to God is to God.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

So we say all that not to give a. Not to give Victory a pat on the back. But I Do think that we've only lasted as long as we've lasted is because we've tried to be integrous in all that we do.

[Arvin]

Absolutely.

[John]

Right. So it's not like, hey, man, like, God is telling us, like, not to pay taxes this year.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Because God has really put on the inside of us, like, we need a bigger and better building.

[Arvin]

Yeah, right.

[John]

That's insane.

[Arvin]

That's so unfortunate that individuals have actually gotten to that level where we're talking about, like, I remember where like someone. This famous story that Dr. Rowland used to share or you. When I was in college was like, a guy was like, oh, I'm gonna rent out the stadium in Atlanta. Like the football.

[John]

Like where the Falcons play.

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the four Mercedes Benz. There was like a different one, but it's like, I'm gonna rent it out and I'm gonna hold a conference. And then he obviously didn't have enough money. It's millions of dollars to rent a stadium and do all that stuff. And then he was like, and I'm gonna start my ministry there.

[John]

I'm gonna start my ministry after renting out the stadium.

[Arvin]

That's gonna be like, sell tickets.

[John]

Selling.

[Arvin]

Selling tickets for the credit line that I took out to rent the stadium.

[John]

Bonkers.

[Arvin]

And then it happened. And I remember one time when I was at ORU, this is early 2000s, some random person was like, I believe I'm supposed to have. I'm supposed to have a ministry, a mega ministry. And it's like, okay, well, you could just minister like where you're at. They're like, no. And they paid for like several months

[John]

of the maybe center. Yeah. So, guys, those of you who are not from Tulsa, Oklahoma, across from Victory is Oral Roberts University.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Fantastic University.

[Arvin]

Loved it.

[John]

Next to it is now it's event. An event and event venue space.

[Arvin]

Yes.

[John]

It's called the maybe center.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

And in the round, it seats what, 9,000, 8,000.

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah. I thought it was close to 10. Oh, I don't know where it's at now with the seeing, but yeah.

[John]

So anyway, it's a big room. It's a huge room.

[Arvin]

Was like the biggest one, even if you cut it.

[John]

Victory used to rent it and cut it in half. And my dad, Billy Joe, he would preach. We would do our 9am and 11am and we rented half of it. And kids was in the mezzanine.

[Arvin]

Right.

[John]

And then nursery was like, in this. Back in the Mouskowitz lobby.

[Arvin]

Yeah. Remember that? Yeah.

[John]

Anyways, long story short, but like, that's how we started. This individual that you're talking about was like, hey, God has told me to do this. And I think that he got. Because Tulsa is rich of, you know, ministries. You know, you have Pastor Mike Todd and God did an incredible move where they were at Greenwood, and then they expanded and built and they. And then they bought the Spirit Bank Event Center. You have Rhema Church, you know, you have, you know, it's no longer around, but this massive ministry called Grace Fellowship. You have church on the move. You have Victory. You have all of these Life Church, which is in Oklahoma, but just Tulsa, specifically GUTS Church with Pastor Bill and Sandy Shear, these incredible ministries. So many that God has spoke to them. And there's more that I just haven't thought of. Battle Creed.

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah, the list goes on.

[John]

Yeah, the list goes on. And if I had. If I didn't mention you, I'm sorry, but like, the list goes on where God did something real and miraculous and they are ministering to people.

[Arvin]

Right?

[John]

And then, you know, you have individuals who are like, we are the next.

[Arvin]

That. That's right.

[John]

And this individual, I think I remember this story. This individual was like, I want to do that and I'm going to take out my savings.

[Arvin]

Yeah, I booked it. My buddy that was living on my Florida where you. At the time, his side job was he worked in AV for the maybe center. And I was like, how'd it go today? It was like two feet, two people. Two people. And then this person would get on stage and just kind of vibe like they would buy the stadium. And then I don't want to mimic what they did because it's creepy. But, like, would shake and tremble and like, do weird and be like. Almost like. Yeah, like incantation kind of thing. And the guy would hold the heavy guys in the back just like, all right.

[John]

I guess he's like, I guess I'm on the clock.

[Arvin]

Yeah, he's getting paid, like, because they paid their bills, so they're supposed to do. But I think it's strange that people.

[John]

And what happened? Nothing sad. Are they still meeting there?

[Arvin]

No, it was like. It was like a few months. It was like every Sunday for a few months. And that's, I think, what they could afford. I think they were expecting to. I think it's nice, though, that we talk about these things because many people, when they see ministry, quote unquote, and then they see a church the size of Victory, they conflate all of those perspectives into one and go, oh, people who meet in large Rooms and churches that are large all think that's same thing. It's a monolith. And it's absolutely not the case. And it's especially helpful if someone in our position shares the reality that hearing the voice of God and living a life where you are informed and aligned with and operating out of what God has actually said to you. That is an important necessity for everyone's life. And God does speak to everybody. But there is a maybe I'll be roasted for saying it this way. There isn't a skill, an ebb and flow learning, much like any other agency or faculty of a human brain. Like, right now, I'm watching my daughter try to form words. She's four or five months old. She's starting to, like, talk talk. But it doesn't. It's just gibberish. It's beautiful. But I'm like, you're still picking up on how to. And we have to have that same capacity with the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, you end up in a place where I've had individuals who are friends of mine or friends of my family. Not a victory. So I'm not, like, subtweeting anybody. But, like, it just so happens that every few months, the next thing that seems convenient for them is what God said. God said this. God said this. God said this. God said this. God said this.

[John]

God be getting blamed for a lot of things.

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm just like, that's so interesting that what God and God only tells you to do the thing that's super convenient for you that you want to do anyway, and you kind of want people to believe that it's important that you do that. So you're gonna go do this. You're gonna start this. You're gonna stop this. You're gonna leave this family and go start another family and then go do it again and go do it a fourth time. And you're like, wow, that's interesting that God keeps telling you that. This one guy, one time was like, God's telling me the winning numbers of a thing. I'm gonna go to the casino and make a bunch of money and plant a church. And I remember hearing my dad be like, that's not right.

[John]

God did not tell you to go to River Spirit.

[Arvin]

It was exactly that. He was like, I'm gonna go to River Spirit. I'm gonna go make a bunch of money, and then I'll give to missions and church or whatever. Because the conversation was about tithing. And he was like, I'll tithe, but I want to go do this. And it was like, all right, brother, you know, okay, we'll see it. But a lot of people, I think there are a lot of young people who see God actually the evidence that God spoke to somebody and they did it and they obeyed. And then it scaled up and became a big thing. And there are a lot of folks who are like, well, how does that even happen? And if I'm even honest, growing up like I did, when I hear pastors talk about I was in prayer and God said this, I assumed that when I went to my backyard and began praying and saying scripture out loud, that there was going to be that moment where God said something. And so what I think is beautiful about God is his mercy in even helping us learn how to hear him. Where it's like, I remember, I. Oh, this is so embarrassing. I in college was like, I like this girl, and I thought, I think I'm going to marry her. I want to be with that girl. I start pursuing her. We start dating on and off, whatever. We would break up at breakfast, and then we would be dating at dinner. Such a. It's a title of a memoir. But then people would be like, hey, man, like, are you sure? You know? Or they'd see her with another guy and be like, are you sure, Arv? Like, you're. And I'd be like, I think God has said this. I really did feel that way. And I remember when it exploded like it does, I remember I was at. I was in Colorado, Estes park, for a friend's wedding. It had really just ended for sure. Now I was like, this is. I remember the word that finally came out in my grief was, I was saying to God, like, I just hope you're not as disappointed me in me as I am in myself for thinking that I heard you speak and being wrong. I just hope you're not as disappointed.

[John]

Say that again.

[Arvin]

I was so disappointed in myself for thinking I had heard God. Because I thought of myself especially like, what was that? 21, 22. I was like, I hear God's voice and I'm right about it every time. And that's what. And God said, this is going to be what it is. And I said, God, I just hope that you're not as disappointed in me as I am disappointed in myself for thinking I heard you and being wrong. And so what I've come to glean and gather now, and I won't blanket this for everybody, but it's been a relief to me in the last 10 years is God knows that's going to happen when a person thinks they hear his voice and they don't. And if there's humility, this is why pride sucks, is because it will keep you. It says the Lord keeps his distance from the proud. And so you think that you're hearing God and God's actually like, I'm gonna wait and see. Wait until you turn around and humble yourself and like, talk. Then we'll talk, you know? Yeah. What I've come to understand now is when a person, specifically a pastor, I'm not against pastors saying God said this to me right when I. When I would hear John Beverego, I was in prayer and the Holy Spirit said, son, da, da da da. I'm like, man, I want that version of it where it's in real time. What I'm not realizing is the structure of what's happening is there are so many times when God speaks to me, let's say, for the sake of understanding. And if God says something to me in June of 2025, and it's just a thought, and I don't even attribute it to him, and then as time goes on, by December or January of the next year, I go, you know, that's. I think that that was. It's in hindsight that I look back and go, that was the voice of God. I didn't even. And the beauty of that is, if that's how it operates, if that's how he speaks to us, you can't manipulate that. You can't. If a person is saying, God said blank, and the end of that conversation is an ask, that's not it. God's not.

[John]

So all of you guys who are listening, I want you to say that last part.

[Arvin]

If a person is using the voice of God to validate their demand of you, that's not what God wants. That has been where people have gotten into trouble so, so, so much. God told me this, so we're supposed to get married. God told me this, so you're supposed to do this. God told me this, so you're supposed to give me money. God told me this. You're supposed to. I've never seen the people that I respect in ministry operate that way. I've only seen people who I don't respect in ministry operate that way. And not just ministry, but in life, like when people are trying to make decisions. I remember In August of 2014, I was going into my senior year of ORU and I was praying about life in the future, and what am I supposed to do? I had not on my radar that I would ever write scripts or ever make movies or. I never thought about that. I grew up watching him with my dad a lot, but I was gonna be John Bevere 2.0. I was.

[John]

And for those of you guys who don't know John Bevere, Google him. He's amazing.

[Arvin]

Wonderful. One of my heroes to this day.

[John]

Yeah, he speaks at victory level.

[Arvin]

Yeah, he's phenomenal. Yeah. But my interpretation of extrapolation of it was. Was very different. And so I was like, I'm just gonna go be this ministry person. I had written a book, a publisher was talking to me. I felt like, oh, man, it's happening. And then all of a sudden, this thought hit my head, like, well, what if you wrote a script and made, like, a movie? You love movies. What if you did that? And I remember I wrote it down, and I was like, that's probably 10 years from now when I do that. I'm not gonna ever do that. And that. That was in August of 2014, January of 2015. Months later, I'm in a meeting, and the president of our university at the time, Dr. Billy Wilson, says, I want someone to do, like, something different in chapel. I want to see some skits, some sketches. And I remembered what I heard in August, and I went, I'll do it. I didn't even know how to write a script. I'd never written a script before. I'd like whatever. I'm using a Word document at the time and just pressing the space bar to make it look like a script. And he was like, okay, all right, young man, you got it. And then we did it. Next thing you know, boom, boom, boom, boom. Here we are 20, 26, 12 years later. And so.

[John]

And the first time, this is also. Those of you who are listening that like. Or watching. I'm going to ask Arvind this question. The first time that you did it, whenever you wrote down, like, in 2014, you wrote down, like, the script thing. And then in 2015, President Wilson was like, I need someone to do this. He was like, I'll do it. That first time that you did it. And then what was that?

[Arvin]

I mean, it was just a very Buddy that was also there. He was a theater major, Jordan Wilson. He's in LA now doing comedy. He's doing great. We were paired together. And so we just started meeting, talking, making jokes, writing jokes, writing funny things, doing sketches. They were making people laugh in chapel, and they were very primitive. You know, it was like. Like I said, I didn't know how to write. Like, there are softwares we use now to write scripts. At the time, we didn't have any of that. So I was just trying to make it look. Yeah. And it was fun and bad. Maybe in some places. And then. But that was a muscle. Yeah. And then at one point, he was

[John]

like, let's do something. What I'm saying is, is like, when God. Sorry. I also want to give you a guidance of this. Is that God talked to you in 2014, 2015. It was presented by president Wilson at oral Roberts university in a meeting. And you said, I'll do it. Your first thing was not writing for a 24.

[Arvin]

Yes, exactly. That's right. I didn't rent out the master.

[John]

You didn't rent out the maiden center. I didn't rent out the baby center

[Arvin]

and go, here's a credit line. Yeah. I just did it with what was presented to me.

[John]

And what you said was, it was good, but also maybe a little bad.

[Arvin]

Yeah. I wouldn't. If I read it today, I would be like, wow. I even at the point we started making short films, this company in Michigan was like, do some short films for us. I do a couple for them. Then they're like, you want to do a TV show? Like a show that we'll do on it? And I went, absolutely. So I write 10 episodes, and then they say, no, write them again. Redo it. These are bad. I redid everything four times. And then they were like, you know, this is just not working. We're not going to do this. I go, ah, man, you guys suck. Church hurt. I was hurt. But when I read it now, and I go back, I go, if I had. If I had made this, I would probably never work at victory and do scripts here. It was so bad.

[John]

So it was the mercy of God.

[Arvin]

The mercy of God.

[John]

The organization in Michigan was like, nah, nah, you sucked.

[Arvin]

They didn't say that, but that was what I felt. I remember feeling that.

[John]

And so what's great is there's two things happening right here. We're talking about hearing the voice of God. We're talking about creating. We're talking about these things. But some takeaways from this, just from this current antidote that Arvind is sharing is, like, number one, it's rare that your first miracle will be feeding the 5,000.

[Arvin]

Right. Yeah.

[John]

You know, or renting out this massive venue to host your church and explore it. Is the scripture where you have been faithful with a few.

[Arvin]

Yes, exactly.

[John]

I will reward you with more. That's right. The parable that Jesus shares about the parable of the talents. You multiply what you have and more will be given.

[Arvin]

That's right.

[John]

It's the scripture that says, never despise small beginnings. Small beginnings. And there's such a world where it's like, we feel that if you are currently listening and watching this and you are in a small beginning, do not despise it. Thank God for it.

[Arvin]

Absolutely.

[John]

And I understand despising small beginnings. Like, I understand that feeling, but it's not going to get you anywhere. Hating.

[Arvin]

That's right.

[John]

What is forming you.

[Arvin]

There's a lot to that.

[John]

We love. We love to see, you know, a pastor talk about, oh, he is the potter and I'm the clay, but when it's happening, we hate it.

[Arvin]

Sure.

[John]

The small beginnings, the writing 10 up, rewriting 10 TV episodes four times to only be shut down. That hurts. But also, that is. That's the potter clay thing. That's the Zechariah 4, 10. Don't despise small beginning. That is all of those things. And sorry, I want to jump backwards to what I was sharing about 15 minutes ago. These friends that were very gifted and talented and actually cool that when I talked to them, I was like, wow, they were on staff at a ministry here, not even at Victory, but they were involved at Victory. And they were friends that were high up in a staff at a ministry here, making great money, providing for their family. They were like, you know what? They voiced a few frustrations from the ministry that they were at. And I was just like, yeah, just take it up with your department head there. And the reason why we interacted was. Was because they're like, hey, you're doing something similar at Victory. And I feel like we're in the same boat. You know, me, it was a wife, a husband and their kid, and they're like, man, I really feel like God is saying, Dallas. And I go, okay, well, you've only been in this. And I said, do you have any family in Dallas? They go, no, but that, you know, when God says it, like, we go, okay, do you have a. Do you have a job opening? Have you. Have you done any research?

[Arvin]

Right.

[John]

Where's your kids going to go to school?

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John]

You know what? When God says go, we go, right. And, you know, and then it was like they went. And then they couldn't find a place. They couldn't afford a place, and they were living off of what they made at the previous job.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

And it was like, hey, our. I understand obeying the voice of God and being in a difficult spot.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Like, I. But I also am like, are you using wisdom? You know, the guy that rented out the maybe center? Like, maybe God did want you to start a ministry.

[Arvin]

Sure.

[John]

But are you using wisdom of moving to Dallas? Of going to. Like, what I have learned is if you are not currently doing the thing on a small scale of what you feel like God has told you on a large scale, I think things are out of order.

[Arvin]

Yeah. Correct. And it exposes something.

[John]

It exposes this pride thing that Arvind shared about seven minutes ago where he was like, God actually resists the proud. And I will be the first to admit there has been moments, many moments in my life where pride has gotten the best of me. And I've had to crash and burn to where I'm like, okay, now. And I'm not gonna say that I'm Yoda, but I do believe that I have more wisdom now after crashing and burning to where I'm like, okay, God did show me these. You know, God has spoken to me about a certain thing. Do I want to uproot everything and move to Dallas? Because then I started getting messages, you know, a year and a half later about, like, hey, can you help cash app us thousands of dollars? Because. Right. Rent is due.

[Arvin]

Right, right, right, right.

[John]

And I'm like, well, it's been a year and a half. Are you in? Like, are you working? No, God. God has been speaking to us to do certain things.

[Arvin]

To not work.

[John]

Yeah, yeah. To focus on ministry.

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John]

And I'm like, okay, awesome.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Because you're my friend and I like you. I need to be honest with you.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Get an 8 to 5 at Walmart.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

And provide for your kid. Be a good parent.

[Arvin]

Right, right, right.

[John]

Do ministry after you get off of your job.

[Arvin]

Right, right. Yeah.

[John]

You know, but it's like, well, that's not the Holy Spirit. You have to be.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

You have to provide. Like, yeah, no, I'm not going to give you money.

[Arvin]

Right.

[John]

And then it's like, I'm a bad friend and I'm not doing. And that's what it became.

[Arvin]

Yeah. It was like, project that.

[John]

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. I see. I see. Is that you're holier than thou and you don't want to help me when I'm struggling.

[Arvin]

Sure.

[John]

No, you need to get a job.

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah.

[John]

Like, I'm gonna. I'm not gonna push a parked car.

[Arvin]

Right.

[John]

Like, I will get out on the highway and help someone.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

You know, if their car is not in park, because that's that now I'm struggling.

[Arvin]

Right.

[John]

And so anyways, listening to the voice of God and then obeying it. I know that we've covered a lot, but hopefully that you guys have kind of gotten the overall gist of what we're saying is we talked about, you know, the behind the scenes of currently the 2026 spring season of victory. You know, it's not everything is ran off of vibes or knee jerk reactions. And we don't just, we don't just throw God's name around of like, well, God told us to do this and

[Arvin]

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[John]

Yes, it is a midpoint of being like, okay, yes, we do need to do these practical things because we are a business and we are stewards of what God has told us to be stewards of. And at the same time, yes, we do need to launch out and step out in faith in certain things. But don't be dumb.

[Arvin]

Right? Well, really what happens there if you're consistently attributing every ambition you have onto the voice of God, what it's exposing is God only wants me to do the thing that makes me rich and famous pretty quickly. Like if you bring in the evangelical industrial complex to it. What it really is is like that person saying, God wants me to be a ministry. Wonderful. But only if I'm a famous minister.

[John]

So what will happen? Everyone knows that I minister.

[Arvin]

That's right. When you're, when you have us, when God gives you a small beginning and you get to steward something small that you consider small, what you will learn along the way if you endure is, wow. The reason I wanted this to be big is because I want it to be perceived as big. And I wanted people to see me and I wanted this person in particular, particular and that person. And what would it be like if I was a big, famous, important person? And the. I am certain that if you are enduring alongside God between small beginning and the day that big things are happening. Yeah. God will rid you of a, the concern for what anyone will think anyway. And you will get to a spot where you're like, you know, big, small, whatever. I love doing this. I want to, I want to do this and I want to do it for the long haul, long game. And I also don't want it to turn me into a monster that people can't stomach being around. Yeah. And then a lot of times administrative people are like, well, because my cause is valuable, because ministry is important. I can be a terrible person to this person. I can be Mean to this. And it's like, yeah, that's not really what God's saying. That's not how he's wanting it. You know what I mean?

[John]

If you guys. I'm looking right into the camera. Camera. If you guys are being a terrible person to people.

[Arvin]

Yeah. In the name of ministry.

[John]

In the name of ministry. Please stop.

[Arvin]

Yeah, please stop.

[John]

I don't know if people have church hurt. They have people hurt and they label it church hurt.

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John]

You're hurting people.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

And I'm not saying that I'm above that because I have hurt people, you know, And I've learned and I like to. I. I would like to believe that I've gotten better at not being a. Of. Of being mean to people and being like, well, ministry, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But let's stop. Okay, Right, cool.

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the. That should happen. And if you, if you skip that part, then those examples are there and you can go watch those documentaries, you know. But I find it, I. For myself, personally, I just. I would feel really pathetic if I arrived at the end of my life and someone who loved me enough to tell me the truth was like, you had the opportunity at a young age, you had the awareness, you were gifted the opportunity to see other people's mistakes, and you wasted your life repeating those mistakes. Like, I actually have a lot of mercy and grace for individuals who in the 80s and 90s started big ministries and then made massive mistakes. And to these, to this day, people hear their name and they. Julie Royce talks about them and gossips about them and whatever. Like, I actually have real respect for them because I'm like, you were the first to do it.

[John]

You were the first to blow it big time.

[Arvin]

And then. Yeah. So when. When they inherited what they did and then they move on and they make these massive mistakes, I go, you're the front line of this military operation. Spiritually speaking, you guys got caught doing rough stuff. Like, if you look at this ministry and this ministry and it's like, man, they. The prosperity people. And then. And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't. What would you do if you came out of some small town and then

[John]

all of a sudden and you were given everything that they were.

[Arvin]

You have $10 billion and people are like, you are. You hear directly from God. Like, if I didn't have that guy's on that class of men's example, men and women, if I didn't have their example, I would do it. I would be Blank.

[John]

So those of you who are listening and watching, sometimes whenever we hear things on social media about a large ministry or certain people that are Christians and you're like, oh, they messed up again. You know, seems right. Like it's classic.

[Arvin]

Right. I am indebted to every single person who has fallen in ministry. I'm indebted to them. I'm grateful to them. God.

[John]

And I want to encourage you guys.

[Arvin]

That's right.

[John]

To think about that perspective whenever an individual in ministry blows it big time.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Think of, especially if you're in ministry, you are number one. Pray for them. Yeah, pray for them. Because guess what? Whatever it is that they did, they also are a child of God. Yeah, I know, I know it's hard to think that.

[Arvin]

Sure.

[John]

But they are.

[Arvin]

Right.

[John]

They are. And like, you're indebted to them because you are. Wow. I am learning through their story.

[Arvin]

Yes, exactly.

[John]

You're learning.

[Arvin]

Yes, exactly.

[John]

And you're course adjusting.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Because if you were put in their position.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

With power, influence and all these things.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Lord knows if you would choose any differently.

[Arvin]

No, I'd be way worse.

[John]

And so I think that it's so important to like be very honest with yourself. And then you're like, oh, wow, everything can be a lesson. I don't always have to bash on something someone who's fallen.

[Arvin]

Right.

[John]

I can look at it and go, wow, that was a lesson.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Lord, please speak to them, Lord. Protect their family. You know, give grace.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

To those people who need grace. Your will be done. Obviously there's consequences.

[Arvin]

Sure, yeah, of course.

[John]

You know, lift them up in prayer because they are, at the end of the day, they're also God's. God's children. You know, I was thinking about. So my kid. We'll close off with. We'll close out with this. My kid plays baseball. My middle boy Jude, he plays baseball on this fourth grade baseball team. There's another boy on his team and him. This other boy on his team. His mother and me were junior high pastors together.

[Arvin]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[John]

And you know, we didn't have a thing. But it was just funny because she is married to a guy who is a carpenter who works at Victory. She's now. She now works in the medical field. But at one moment we were over junior high ministry.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

And. And it's just crazy because I was talking the other night during this baseball game and she goes, john, it's wild that we lived there. We have whole. We have a whole life that exists out of what we're Doing right now. And it was like. And we were just talking about doing youth ministry. And she was like, john, we did these insane events.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Where we had 400 kids. We did a pillow fight. Like, we did a service and then 400 kids.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

We divided up into sections into genders and grades, and it was a pillow fight night. And then we had a cereal bar.

[Arvin]

Yeah. Awesome. Yes.

[John]

And then we did, like, a ninja night where everything was filmed and everyone dressed up like a ninja. And we just did these insane events and everything.

[Arvin]

And.

[John]

And we were talking about, you know, at that season in her life and at that season in my life, like, as we were doing it, and then we would do youth camp, and then we would do these retreats. She was like, all I wanted to do. She goes, this was before social media. And she's like, all I wanted to do is that I wanted all. Every one of those kids to receive Jesus in their heart and to feel like someone knew their name and that they knew that God loved them and that they would be a leader in their school. She was like, it was. So we were just talking about our motives, and I was like, yeah. All I cared about.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

And both of us were like, that season, our life, we verbally said to each other, we would love to be junior high youth pastors until the day we die.

[Arvin]

Wow. Yeah.

[John]

Like, that was our. That was our goal. We're like, now, it would be great if we could make a little bit more money.

[Arvin]

Sure.

[John]

Because, like, you know, we're struggling to pay rent on our apartment. But. But we just laughed about that.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

And it was like, oh, man. It was just so pure. It was like, very pure.

[Arvin]

Yeah. Beautiful.

[John]

And it was wonderful. And she was like, what would have happened? She goes, john, I really believe that we would have been canceled by the news if social media existed.

[Arvin]

Oh, sure. Most youth groups from the. Yeah, absolutely.

[John]

But she was like, but our motives were not to be, you know, the next, you know, like, cool popping off big thing. Or to be like, these. To be like, these speakers, these, these. These. These preachers that travel around and preach.

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah.

[John]

And she was like, our sermons, we would preach, like, with flip flops on.

[Arvin]

That's right.

[John]

Because we had a slip and slide outside after service. So we would pre preach the sermon with flip flops. And our whole goal was like, how many kids can we get to the altar?

[Arvin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John]

And then we will go do slip and slide. Awesome. And throw water balloons at each other.

[Arvin]

Beautiful.

[John]

It was just like, yeah. I can't explain It. But it was like, oh, that was our motive. That was our mo.

[Arvin]

Beautiful.

[John]

And it was just wonderful. And so anyways, there's been multiple times where I pray that my kids, when they get to that youth group age, you know, and we're really blessed. Here we have this guy who's over our youth ministry and Joseph Kellogg. Very pure, wonderful. And it's just. It's very, very special. But I'm like, man, I just want that, that. That purity of the ministry. And I think that we're returning to that.

[Arvin]

Absolutely.

[John]

You know, not just as victory, but the whole church is like, yeah, man, let's just go back to purity of heart. Purity of heart. And I think that is a beautiful thing. And you're seeing it. There was a report that Pastor Paul read in our DLT yesterday that there is. That there is a massive return of these. Is it Gen z? That's like 21 and 22.

[Arvin]

They're all coming back.

[John]

Gen Z is this massive return to church. And how it was in New York Times. New York Times, that there's these two Catholic churches where all of these Gen Z people, they do instead of like, like, like the hot girl walk, which is like. Was. Was like a trending thing a few years ago. It was like, it's called like, the Catholic girl stroll or something like that. And how all of these young adult girls and guys will eat pizza at Central Park.

[Arvin]

Yeah.

[John]

Go on a walk. And they'll all end Sunday night at Mass.

[Arvin]

Interesting.

[John]

And it's like thousands of these young adult people that are working around New York City.

[Arvin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John]

That are going to Mass right after they eat pizza. And it's like, there's no room in the. In the Catholic church. There's no room. People are sitting on the ground.

[Arvin]

Wonderful. Wow.

[John]

And it's like this cool return. And I think that there's something beautiful about it. Anyways, I say all that to say I want to be a part of it.

[Arvin]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah.

[John]

But y' all gotta keep us in check. You know what I'm saying?

[Arvin]

Thank you.

[John]

So, anyways, well, hey, we hope that you enjoyed today.

[Arvin]

Yeah, absolutely.

[John]

We really care for you guys. Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next week.

[Arvin]

Bye, guys. Thanks again.

[John]

See ya.