BEST DAYS | Season 10 Episode 4

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Podcast: Victory Church: Paul Daugherty
Episode: BEST DAYS | Season 10 Episode 4
Date: October 29, 2025
Hosts: John & Arvin
Theme: Behind-the-scenes lessons in ministry, leadership, stewardship, and overcoming fear.

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Episode Overview

This episode offers a candid and practical look at ministry life, focusing on the themes of stewardship, ownership versus hireling mentality, leadership responsibility, and drawing spiritual lessons from popular culture and everyday experiences. John and Arvin reflect humorously on Christian fall traditions, discuss practical event planning at Victory Church, and share memorable stories that reveal the spiritual importance of excellence and responsibility, both in ministry and daily life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Fall Traditions, Halloween, and Spiritual Alternatives

• Hosts reminisce about growing up in Christian homes with alternative Halloween events like "Hallelujah Night."
• Humorous childhood stories about Bible-themed costumes:
  • “My mom put... red lipstick on our face, spiked our hair with orange spray... Me and Paul looked like Thing One and Thing Two from Dr. Seuss.” – John [02:00]
• Exploring the cultural differences between Halloween and the church’s approach to the fall season.

2. Fear, the Supernatural, and Psychological Catharsis

• Discussion around society’s fascination with fear during October and how it connects to Christian perspectives.
• Arvin explains the psychological benefit of scary stories:
  • “It’s a way to turn the thing that felt out of your control bad into within your control... At the end of a movie, you can turn it off.” – Arvin [06:17]
• Analysis of Stephen King’s It as an allegory for fear and trauma—how overcoming fear echoes biblical lessons:
  • “...It feeds on fear. So the whole point is, if you are afraid, if you have fear, then he consumes you. And that’s the whole point of part one...” – John [08:00]

3. Finding the Gospel in Secular Stories

• Parallels between secular narratives and gospel truth:
  • Django Unchained as a “gospel story” about being set free, trained, and ultimately a sacrifice for another.
  • Les Miserables as an embodiment of grace and redemption.
  • “If there’s a good movie or a good story, I can show you the gospel in it.” – Arvin [10:18]
• John shares a family anecdote about C.J. looking for spiritual relevance in everything—even when characters say “Oh my God” in movies. [12:19]

4. Event Planning and Organizational Challenges at Victory

• Behind-the-scenes: planning for community and holiday outreach events (Fam Fest, Friendsgiving, Thanksgiving feasts, Christmas productions, coat and blanket giveaways).
• Importance of intentionality, flexibility, and avoiding poor assumptions in event planning:
  • “The worst thing... is bad assumptions... us not really planning a lot for the central campus...” – John [15:32]
  • Example: moving food between campuses; need for plan B in the event of bad weather.

5. Excellence, Ownership, and the Hireling vs. Shepherd Mentality

• Scriptural call for excellence:
  • “Whatever your hands find to do, do it unto the Lord with excellence. To me, anyone who doesn’t do something with excellence, I believe that shows me their worship toward the Lord.” – John [18:45]
• Arvin shares how working as a “hireling” (doing the bare minimum) led to missed opportunities and lessons learned:
  • “I was merely doing only and precisely what I was told to do. Even if I have the intelligence to see holes... I'd go, I’m only doing what I’ve been asked to do.” – Arvin [19:09]
• Encourages ownership even in supporting roles:
  • “My approach became, what if this was mine? And the problem with that is it’s extremely hard to do. But it’s the place where your soul enters like a real crucible.” – Arvin [21:54]
  • “You should be your boss's multiplier of intelligence.” [22:59]

6. Navigating Leadership and Submission to Authority

• Discussing how to respond when leadership changes plans or vision:
  • “Once that conversation happens with your leader, you have two choices... exit ramp off of your calling and destiny, or stay on.” – John [24:01]
• The power of praying for your leaders instead of gossiping:
  • “If I have time to gossip about the person that I’m under, I have time to pray for them.” – Arvin [26:00]

7. Personal Stories Illustrating Ownership and Care

• Anecdotes about working with others who lacked initiative (“hirelings”) versus those who took real ownership (“shepherds”).
• Strong analogy comparing leadership to parenting and the difference between a parent’s care and a babysitter’s detached, minimal responsibility:
  • “It made me realize, oh, that's a hireling. I'm a shepherd.” – John [34:20]
• Example of an instructor’s lack of communication and initiative with John’s daughter’s lesson, prompting a conversation on expectations and care.

8. Stewardship in All Areas of Life

• The “shepherd” mentality is transferable: applies at work, in ministry, in parenting, and personal integrity.
• “What would I do if this was my own? But still have open hands”—balancing investment and non-attachment due to ultimate ownership by God. [36:29]
• Living “invested but not attached”—taking initiative and responsibility but holding outcomes loosely.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Being a Shepherd, Not a Hireling:
  “There’s nothing more that I’m attracted to than another shepherd. It’s a shepherd who is looking for a flock... come and shepherd with me.” – John [35:21]

• On True Ownership:
  “You innovate. And then also there’s an open handedness to it that’s like, it’s God’s. And I’ve just noticed every single time that I’ve had that attitude, the end product is significantly better... And also I enjoy it more.” – Arvin [28:40]

• On Instinct vs. Talent:
  “People mistake instinct for talent... if you were to just take ownership of something, the instinct you would have to make things better, other people will go, ‘Oh, you’re so talented’ and goes, no, I just think it’s mine.” – Arvin [41:16]

• Takeaway Encouragement:
  “How would I handle this if this was mine? How would I shepherd it? And I believe that on the other side of asking that question, you’re going to have new marching orders literally today...” – John [43:41]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:11 – 03:13: Fall traditions, Halloween alternatives, and childhood costumes
• 04:03 – 10:04: Fear, supernatural in movies, and spiritual/therapeutic value of storytelling
• 10:36 – 13:00: Finding gospel in secular stories (Django Unchained, Les Miserables, family anecdotes)
• 13:10 – 16:10: Organizational traditions and event planning at Victory
• 18:45 – 24:01: Excellence, ownership, hireling vs. shepherd mentality
• 24:01 – 28:40: Navigating submission, handling leadership, and praying for leaders
• 32:00 – 36:16: Personal stories about ownership, care, initiative, and mentoring
• 41:16 – 43:45: Instinct vs. talent; practical encouragement on shepherding in all areas

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Tone and Takeaways

The episode is warm, relatable, and pragmatic, blending humor with spiritual wisdom. John and Arvin's chemistry makes the deep topics of fear, leadership tension, and excellence in stewardship accessible and inspiring. Their message: Take ownership where you are, serve with excellence, and trust God for the outcomes—no matter your position or responsibility.

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Summary compiled for listeners seeking practical spiritual lessons in leadership, ministry, and daily life, as shared by John and Arvin of Victory Church.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hello.

[B]

Hey, everyone. Welcome back.

[A]

My name is John.

[B]

My name is Arvin.

[A]

And this is behind the scenes of our best days. And we are so happy to see you today.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

See you and. And be with you. So it is fall weather, and we love fall weather here in Phoebe, Oklahoma.

[B]

Finally, a sweatshirt.

[A]

Yes. Wearing a sweatshirt. I still choose to wear shorts sometimes because I feel like my lower.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know about you guys, but, like, I love a good jacket or hoodie or something. Warm up top and then warm socks. But, like shorts.

[B]

I'm the same way sometimes. Yeah.

[A]

I don't know what it is.

[B]

It's fun. Yeah.

[A]

I feel like my lower appendages are. I feel like they're okay in the cold.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You know, I say that, but also, as I get older, I feel like my fingers get cold. Do they? Like, I'm like, do I need iron? What's going on?

[B]

You wear gloves?

[A]

No.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Yes. I should start wearing gloves. The gloves that make my hands sweat more than anything are the latex. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, the doctor's gloves. Oh, absolutely. That you kind of blow in and you make animals out of.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

My kids love those. But anyways. But we love fall. Hopefully you guys do. It's my favorite season.

[B]

Yeah. The beginning of it especially is, like, perfect.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, I grew up. We grew up in, you know, in a Christian household. So it was like, okay, fall is great, but Halloween is bad.

[B]

Right. So we have Hallelujah night.

[A]

Hallelujah night.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. And I know I've talked about this before, but, like, I think. I know I've talked about it in a separate season. Yeah. But my mom would always have us be these Bible characters that were.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why? Like I've told you before, me and my brother Paul, we were tongues of fire. Like, you know how you pray in tongues? Like we were tongues of fire. My mom put. She didn't have makeup, and so she used red lipstick on our face, just. And put it on our face. Spiked our hair with orange spray. And then we had. Me and Paul looked like thing one and thing two from Dr. Seuss. We had orange and he was in red, like, sweatpants and sweatshirt. And then she cut out flames out of cardboard and colored them and then stapled them on us. So the whole time, the staples. And I didn't wear an undershirt back then. And I was kind of a heavier boy, so it was just scratching my.

[B]

Tugging on your skin.

[A]

Yeah. My little kid pecs. I was just like, ouch. I Was bleeding underneath my sweatshirt. Incredible. And we won third place. The kid who came in first was Absalom. His hair was caught in a branch.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

And he had a donkey, like a fake donkey, and his hair was caught in a branch. This is some Christian kid.

[B]

Where is that kid now?

[A]

I don't know. Yeah, I have no idea.

[B]

Deconstructing.

[A]

Deconstructing faith. No, we're just kidding. We're just kidding.

[B]

No, he pastors a church in Milwaukee.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that would be great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But anyway, so that was John Piper. John Piper talking about. So this whole podcast is talking about behind the scenes of ministry here at Victory. And so me and Arvind, if you have not listened or, you know, me and Arvin, we get to serve here at Victory Church. And there's a lot of things that we get to do, and some of those things is we get to help write the productions and everything and be involved in conferences. And we have a conference coming up in January, so save that date. We have a Christmas production that's coming up the second week of December, 2025, and it kicks off on a Thursday night, and it goes through Sunday. So anyways, save those dates because we're really excited for the story and all those things that are going to be coming to pass.

[B]

It's going to be real good.

[A]

Pastor Paul is in a sermon series right now called the End Times.

[B]

That's right. Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, and he's not doing it because it's October and it's spooky. Like, he really felt like it was God putting it on his heart. But he talked about how there's three approaches to it. There is the fear approach, the careless approach where you're like, out of sight, out of mind, I don't really care. And then the faith approach to it. And so anyways. But I do believe that there are people that have this fear about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And especially, you know, and it's unique that, like, the world is able to capitalize in October on fear. Yeah. You know, and, you know, I'll be. I'll say this. The older I get, I enjoy creepy things.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah. You know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I like. I do like a good scary movie. Totally not something that's supernatural. Yeah. Yeah. I will say this because we write those scripts and stories. I do think that scary movies that involve a ghost or a demon, like some type of horror or an alien, I believe it's a cop out.

[B]

Right. It's too easy.

[A]

It's too easy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because whenever there's A scary movie. And it is. And all of a sudden now anything can happen in a movie because it's a supernatural entity.

[B]

Right? Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And so anyways, that's kind of the critic in me. I'm like, but if it is humans, like, if something is scary and it's involved only with humans, then you're like, oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This took some effort on the writer.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. Even if you study. Because I grew up not liking scary stuff, not paying attention to it, not being allowed to watch it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

As I got older, I had one roommate in particular after college who would watch, like, American Horror Story every evening to wind down. I got intrigued because this wasn't a particularly demented person. He was very normal. And so I looked into it, and the psychology behind that is the catharsis of processing fear. And so I don't necessarily think that all scary stuff is fine to watch, but I do think there's something about the catharsis psychologically. People who make it, people who enjoy it. It's like. It's a way to, like, turn the thing that felt out of your control bad into within your control.

[A]

Yes. Because at the end of a movie, you can turn it off.

[B]

Totally. Yeah.

[A]

And in real life, you can't always do that.

[B]

That's true. So a lot of these movies and stuff, the best versions of them, even stuff I've, like, jotted down notes about before, I'm like, oh, this would be scary, I guess. But it's me processing my experience with this, that or the other, you know.

[A]

So interesting and intriguing.

[B]

Totally. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And so. And I'll say this, you know, I was never allowed to watch, like, scary movies growing up, but I remember sneaking them and there was. Stephen King did a movie slash book called It. And I just think it is such a powerful story. Now take the whole. Again, I now sound like I'm contradicting myself because it turns out to be a supernatural entity. It turns out to be that.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But initially, the whole point of the story of it, Stephen King, is fear itself. It's an alien from it. All right, I'm gonna give it away. Spoiler alert.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's an alien from another universe again. I know I sound like I'm contradicting myself, but I think what I enjoy is the coming of age tale of these young kids they encounter. Like, every 27 years, there's this evil clown that comes out and, like, kids go missing. And what you find out is that he's, like, eating kids or, like, something demented like that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Taking them, you know, killing them. And anyways. But you find that it's not really a clown. It's this alien entity that, you know, they find out and it feeds on fear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so the whole point is, if you are afraid, if you have fear, that he consumes you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's the whole point of part one. Then there's a part two of it with Pennywise where they think that they defeat him, but basically he just scours back in this sewer. And they think that they win as kids, but then part two is them all grown up. And all of these adults have issues from their childhood. This is a little therapy, a little trauma thing to where, like, you know, this girl who had an abusive father, she gets older and it's 27 years later and she has an abusive husband. Yeah, yeah. And then you have a kid who stuttered. You know, he had a fear and he lost something as a kid. As he gets older, you know, 27 years later, whenever the clown comes back out.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, his stutter returns. One guy has stage fright, but he's an actor, and so he's throwing up before acting because of. And it's just one guy is afraid that he is going to catch a disease as a kid, as. As he gets older, he's on all of this medication and medication and allergies dictate his life. Again, I'm not talking about allergies, but I'm talking about these. These kids grew up. And what they realize in part two is what we have to go back to the place where our fears started.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

And destroy Pennywise. It. The clown. Destroy it once and for all. And so that's what they do. And so the whole point of the story, I think, is a good. It's a good story. I'm not condoning the movie, but I'm like, man, that is a powerful lesson.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

And so anyways, I do think there are some powerful lessons out there. Totally. You know, in those movies. Yeah.

[B]

And there's a lot of overlap with scripture in that story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, if you don't like anything scary, there's portions of scripture that are terrifying where it's like, wow, what's going on here? But if you capture, like, oh, this is what. The thing that's great about that story is the parts of it that point back to scripture. Like, God has not given you a spirit of fear, so if you have one, where'd it come from? Let's figure, you know what I Mean, like nowadays, at this point in my life, I can look at most. If there's a good movie or a good story, I can show you the gospel in it. You know, like my example of that is Django Unchained, which, of course, disclaimer, don't show this to your kids.

[A]

Yeah, the Quentin Tarantino film. Yeah.

[B]

It's very bloody, it's very violent. But it's a gentleman who finds this man who is currently enslaved, frees him, pays for his freedom, and trains him to be his own man. That's the gospel. That's amazing to me. You know what I mean? And so then they go on adventures together. They have this wonderful friendship and. And in fact, at one point, that character. Spoiler. Gives his life for Django and you're like, oh, beautiful. That's the gospel story.

[A]

Powerful.

[B]

Yeah, I love it.

[A]

It's also the story of Les Miserables.

[B]

There it is.

[A]

Yeah. Les Miserables is the gospel to where, remember the thief? The guy steals from him. Yeah. You know Jean Valjean.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. From the priest.

[A]

Yeah. And then the priest, you know, he basically. And then they basically catch him, they bring him to the priest and they're like, did. Did he steal from you? And yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyways, yeah. It is wonderful as you begin to look at the stories about how many things are connected back to the gospel, for sure. And I think that what that does is it makes being a believer so exciting. And it also makes it very inspiring that everywhere you look you can be inspired because you're like, oh, if you can. If you learn, if you're a good tracer, if you can trace things back to the gospel. Yeah, It's. It's power. It's powerful. I agree. Sometimes. Sometimes. My. Now, my. My kid's grandpa, his name is C.J. and he's been at Victory for, you know, 27 years. Long time. And he actually. He actually used to work at Victory. He was. He worked out at the Dream center, and then he worked out on our bus ministry and then he was over chosen, which was a youth group that was at the Dream Center.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So anyways, and I married his daughter. We had three kids together. So he is such an amazing grandpa, but he loves finding gospel and everything. Like if something. But it's like sometimes funny if he'll be watching a movie and someone goes like, oh, my. Oh, my God. And he goes, see, it's a Christian movie. It's a Christian movie.

[B]

They're crying out to him.

[A]

They're crying out to God what his soul Wants is God. And so, you know, you may think he's saying it in vain, but. But actually he is crying out to God because that brother needs Christ. And I'm like, okay, C.J. i love it. So, yeah, no, it makes life so much more entertaining.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

And I mean, it's so fun to. Yeah, it's just fun to live like that because you're like, okay, praise God.

[B]

It's a good way to look at life.

[A]

It is, it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But. Yeah. So anyways. But what Some things that we were talking about is just some, some leadership and organizational structure behind the scenes of ministry at Victory is, you know, one of the things that I do is I help oversee our campuses. So we have Manford and North. Now, obviously it's October coming up in October, because we would do the Fam Fest. We're doing the fam Fest in 2025. We're doing it on a Wednesday night. But on the weekends before leading up to it, we usually do at the campuses, we go, hey, what are we going to do for the families on the weekend before you're going to this holiday season? And so most churches, they do something for families on these, on these holidays. As far as event planning, you have it at October, some type of like costume Halloween, what do you call it? Alternate choice, alternative choice. Basically, if people are not going trick or treating, it's like, hey, we have an alternative choice here at our church. You can wear costumes. We got games and stuff like that for kids. And it draws families in where they can hear the gospel. So churches do that. Then in November, you know, we do a friendsgiving. We also a Friendsgiving where we do a big meal with church with people at all of our campuses. And we really try to drive home community. But we also do Thanksgiving Day feasts where we feed people at both dream centers and single parents for people who have nowhere to go.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

For Thanksgiving.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At Christmas time, we do toy giveaways paired with our Christmas production.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then in January, we do a. A coat and blanket giveaway and we do warming shelters paired with our conference in January. So we always try to pair some type of humanity meeting people's physical needs along with spiritual needs. And then at Easter, you know, churches will do Easter egg hunts. You know, we have done it in the past with. Paired with a Easter production. Yes. Something that like, okay, you're coming for this, but we're also going to do this. So in that it takes a lot of organization and communication and things. The worst thing that is so difficult for someone like me is bad assumptions. And when it comes to, like, organizational is when someone has bad assumptions to where they're like, they assume. For instance, this has happened before to where, like, our campuses, it's like, oh, we're doing Friendsgiving and, you know, Central. We have Cane's Chicken. Well, Cane's Chicken is right down the road.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

At our north campus, it's farther away. And then there's not a Cane's Chicken near our Manford campus.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it is like, hey, we're doing Cane's Chicken. Okay. Well, by the time it gets out to Manford and by the time they eat it after at 11am what's the product that we're gonna give these people? It's gonna be tough chicken. It's gonna. You know what I mean? So it is like, us not. Not really plan, like, planning a lot for the central campus. And then at the other campuses, it kind of being. Oh, yeah, I guess, you know, they'll figure it out. And this hasn't happened in a while. It's been about, you know, five or six years. But I remember it being such a bad experience. Or just like, planning a big family festival out at Camp Victory, which is where Victory man for campus is. And not checking the weather.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And being. And then. And then asking the question, do you have a plan B if it rains? And they're like, oh, we just figured it wouldn't rain or people would. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so anyways, and I think that if you are working at a ministry or just, like, do the extra effort of being intentional. And I. And I am probably someone who's an overthinker, but, you know, this. An example is we're currently. The weather is pretty rough right now in Tulsa and this upcoming weekend, there's all of these rains, like rain and thunderstorms. And in Oklahoma, you can play sports in the rain, but as soon as lightning happens, you have to wait 30 minutes after each lightning strike before you can start the game. And so things will be canceled. Well, it's playoffs right now. It's like, there's playoffs happening in sports, so you can't just bump the game the following week because you have to win. A game has to be played in order for the next playoff game to make sense.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So anyways, so I am calling the league. I'm calling other coaches, trying to figure out, hey, what's the plan for this weekend? And then they're like, well, we'll just play. And I go, okay. Well, it says there's A chance of lightning. Have we thought through that? Oh, well, I guess we just push it back a week. And then I have to be patronizing and treat them silly because I go, okay, so the following week is the second round of playoffs, but you can't play the second round until the first round is played, so what's your plan? And they go, huh. I've never thought about that. That stuff makes me so frustrated.

[B]

Sure, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I know you guys, I'm getting into the weeds here, but, like, I truthfully believe that scripture, Whatever you find, whatever your hands find to do.

[B]

Yeah. Do it with excellence.

[A]

Do it unto the Lord with excellence. Yeah. To me, anyone who doesn't do something with excellence, I believe that shows me their worship towards the Lord.

[B]

Interesting. Wow.

[A]

Which is probably super judgy.

[B]

No, sure.

[A]

What do you think?

[B]

I can use myself as an example. There have been jobs I've had in my life, especially when I was younger, where I was entirely a hireling.

[A]

Like, that.

[B]

I was merely.

[A]

Oh, the difference between a shepherd and a hireling.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I. You know, thankfully, in this time period at victory, since 2018, it has been a very different approach. But I learned that lesson the hard way. When you're a hireling, in my case, it was like, I'm merely doing only and precisely what I'm told to do. And even if I have the intelligence to see holes in what I've been told, I would go, I'm only doing what I've been asked to do. And so there was a job I had in a nearby town called Owasso, where I was like, I just needed to pay my bills. And so I joined this finance firm, and this sweet woman hired me, who was also very tough and very, like, she knew her stuff, and she was very good at growing money for her clients and stuff. And she was very kind and gave me an opportunity to, like. She was like, I could see you taking over this one day. And I was like, I don't want to do that. But I didn't have the skills at the time or the competence to be like, can I just be a secretary? Like, I just want to. I was just sitting at the front desk doing the job of checking people in and out of appointments. And I was like, the paycheck is fine. It pays the bills. That's kind of all I need for now. I don't want to do this. And I just. I failed to communicate, and I behaved as a hireling. And so after six months, she's like, I don't see you're not demonstrating the initiative to like, learn this material. You're not asking to learn it all. She had offered to help me learn. Like there's tests you have to study for to become a financial advisor. And I remember being like, yeah, I'll do it. You know, I was very, it was very, very poor communication. And the whole time I just was a hireling. And so do you think it would.

[A]

Have been better from the jump of being like, I am doing this job because of this?

[B]

I think I probably wouldn't have been hired and that would have been the right move and I would have. The lesson, I think would have been to trust God for. But I think I didn't know how to communicate at the time. And that's how I learned how to communicate. Because there were jobs in the future where in the interviews I had better communication where I was able to say, well, I'm willing to do that, I'm willing to learn that, I'm willing to do that, you know. And unfortunately, in my case, I had to learn the hard way. And so eventually she was like, I just don't think this is working out. And I go, you're right. You know, we dug each other up. I got out of there.

[A]

See you later. Yeah.

[B]

But now here at Victory, especially when I stepped into this role, having had learned that lesson painfully, it's like I should be my boss's multiplier of intelligence. So when he looks at a production, for example, and I think that was one of our earliest conversations prior to me even doing the productions, was what would you do with a show? How would you approach a show? And instead of saying, I will precisely do what I'm told and I'm only paid for what I'm told to do, that's such a hireling approach. My approach became, what if this was mine? And the problem with that is it's extremely hard to do. But it's the place where your soul enters like a real crucible. It's like where you really are ground down into the threshing floor of like, okay, so pretend this is yours, but then work hard on it like it is. Take ownership like it is. And then open handed like it's not that I think is the pain that there are a lot of people, and I'm not speaking about anybody, I'm saying just in general, myself included, there are opportunities when you think something is yours until you learn that it's ultimately not even your boss's but God's, until you really accept that you're going to have dozens of opportunities for tension and problem. And what a lot of people do to avoid, rightfully to avoid behaving poorly toward their leadership. And this happens in churches a lot.

[A]

Yeah, I was just, I mean, I. As you were talking, I'm thinking of like, and I'm not saying this about all, but I think of youth pastors.

[B]

It's a trap people fall into.

[A]

Or like a worship pastor.

[B]

Totally. You get in there, you have this God given talent, and you go, I am so excited to serve in my calling. And let's be honest, you have an idea in your mind of what the manifestation of that will look like. I want to do albums, I want to preach sermons, I want to release books, I want to do all this stuff. Fantastic. I don't think God is like, how dare you have ambition.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But what tends to happen is you take ownership and you put in effort and you put in energy. And then when your leadership says, I appreciate the work and they're not doing it because they want to upset you, but they go, well, I have these other parameters I have to think about that you don't have to think about. I just need you to not do that and do this. That right there is an opportunity to exit, ramp off of your calling and destiny. Or. Or stay on.

[A]

So basically, once that conversation happens with your leader, you have two choices. Yeah.

[B]

@ least you can exit and you can exit several different ways. There's different exits on every highway. And one of them is, I'm going to be angry with this leader. I'm going to have unforgiveness.

[A]

I'm going to talk crap about them behind their backs.

[B]

Exactly. I'll tell people, you know what, man? Churches are terrible. And if you go to a small church, you go, this church sucks. If you go to a big church, you go, mega. Churches suck. You know, like, whatever. You just find a specific prejudice for where you've been or you go, okay, fine, I'm gonna do the version of work that when it gets changed, I will not care. So I won't take ownership. I won't think ahead. I won't try to make it better. I won't.

[A]

Because it's not mine.

[B]

It's not mine. Right. And so I think the unfortunate thing is there are a lot of people who are in that phase of working at a church or working in life, and they're waiting for God to bail them out and be like, you've been so faithful to not gossip about your leader that I'm now going to put you in this massive position that you deserve. And I don't think that happens. And I think a lot of people, they bump up against God that way, and then eventually they're either their belief in God evaporates or their belief in themselves evaporates, or their belief that God would even want. Some people, like, they're creating the philosophy that God doesn't even want to do big things in people's lives. God just wants us all to shut up and live small, quiet lives, which is not gospel. Yeah, but they would rather accept that than think perhaps I went about this incorrectly. In my case, the opportunity came several times, and it's important to go, God, what do I have to do to stay aligned with you in this? What do I have to do to stay as close to and on the highway toward the destiny and calling and purpose you have? And the number one thing is you pray for your leaders. If you can gossip about them, you have time to pray for them.

[A]

All right, I just want you guys to write that down. If I have time to gossip about the person that I'm under, I have time to pray for them.

[B]

Yeah, it's amazing what happens when you pray for them. And then when you step out of that and you get into. You know what? None of all of this is like. This is all preparation. This is training. Just take this as the precursor to whatever is supposed to happen next. How do you want to approach this? Then take on the. Sometimes the Holy Spirit will give you really, really helpful thought experiments. Like, imagine you're in leadership. How would you want someone who works for you to behave?

[A]

Imagine that you are in leadership. How would you want someone who works for you to behave?

[B]

Yeah. So when I'm armed with those thought exercises and I go, I would want them to simultaneously go about this with integrity and excellence and also share with me holes they see in what's happening. And if they can see that, they can plug those holes without even having to bring them to me. I would love that. And so I have started doing that in different roles I've played. And so what that ends up happening is you arrive at the end zone, or if you want to use a football metaphor, you're right there at the goal line. And lo and behold, we have what it takes to get over the line. And instead of pausing and calling time out every single play because you want someone to see you make the change. You know what I mean? Like, I need my boss to see me do this thing so that I could perhaps gain promotion for myself or gain some credit and it's like, oh, you still think that the person who's in leadership over you is your boss, is God, not. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like God saying like, I'm seeing you the whole time. Why is it not enough that I see you? There aren't enough eyeballs in the world. There's not enough attention and praise, especially in ministry life. There's not. It's a thankless, like 95% of the time, it's a thankless endeavor. But if it's not enough to hear God say thank you, for God to say I'm proud of you, then you're either not hearing him or you really don't care that he feels that way.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so those are the things that have to happen internally. And I think most people, they come on staff in churches or they work in ministries or whatever. And if you're not willing to like endeavor into that cavernous scenario and have that series of conversations with yourself and with the Holy Spirit, then good thing you didn't become a leader. Because it's terrible to work for someone who hasn't answered those questions. Right. You know what I mean? So it's wonderful to go through that and go step by step and go, okay, I understand now, like this is how I'm supposed to approach life. And by the end of it, you're a better version of yourself. And it's like, okay, cool. And you're patient and you're, you know what I mean? You're fun to work with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You innovate. And then also there's an open handedness to it that's like, it's God's. And I've just noticed every single time that I've had that attitude, the end product is significantly better than it would have been if it was purely under my control. And also I enjoy it more. And everyone around me feels a sense of ownership, which is wonderful. When I see people on our production team feel like the shows are theirs, it doesn't upset me. It makes me very happy. You know what I mean? So that is.

[A]

Yeah, I think what you, what you just broke down, it helps us all connect the dots.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

In our life. And just the term, like what you said it, the those of you who maybe if you read the Bible, then you're aware of it. If you don't read the Bible a whole lot, but a hireling and a shepherd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is, those two words broke down what you just said.

[B]

Precisely.

[A]

Basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. And I have felt that before. I have Been. There have been moments where I have been a hireling. I remember there's a guy who he helps. There's a guy named Matt Satis, and he is awesome at building sets.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

He builds, like, theater sets. Big sets. He has worked for ORU and build sets for their theater program. He's done stuff for the Tulsa Pac.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

And some things for certain schools in certain areas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anyways, he's great. I remember thinking he was really cool when I was in college, and I would be like, so, what do you, like? How do you make money? And he said, I, like, go to homes that have basically just been built, and they have this big trash bin and all of the scrap wood and all that stuff is thrown in this bin. I basically. I basically throw it in the bin, and I take the bin to the dump.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

And he said, and I try to do one house a day. And he said, but one house is, you know, thousands of dollars. It's like, they pay him a lot.

[B]

Sure, sure, sure.

[A]

And he's like, but I have to get that house done in the day. And he's like, I do it with me and my brother. And I was like, oh, I would love to help you. And he was like, oh, really? And he's like, yeah. And he goes, well, you mow yards. And so, you know, you are, again, bad assumption. So this is where bad assumption meets no initiative.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I didn't own it. It wasn't me. And he was like, oh, I can pay you X amount. And I was like, wow, that sounds like a great amount of money. I'm not mowing any yards. So he was like, come and. Come and help me. And he was like, we'll try it out for a day. And I went. And I remember just the first hour, me and I had my friend AJ come with me. And we were just cracking up, laughing, throwing things out, and we were, like, going at a pace. This guy was sprinting.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And he was throwing things away. And he was just like, hey, guys, I just got a call. I have to go to another house. And he said, It's 10:30am we got there at 8. It's 10:30. I'll be back at lunchtime with lunch. He goes, I will bring you guys lunch. And he said, but I need these three rooms cleared out, like, or this side of the house. It was some type of assignment.

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

And we were like, yeah, absolutely. And we were listening to music and we were working, but we were just like, whatever, not knowing that he had a set schedule in his mind that he didn't communicate to us. I mean, he did communicate, but it was like, if we don't have this done by lunchtime, that from lunchtime to 5pm we won't be able to finish.

[B]

Right, right, right, right.

[A]

You know, and so anyways, I remember, like, we were just kind of chilling.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And we were throwing things away, but it was at our. And he came back for lunch and was like, no lunch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was so upset, and it was my first time that I had ever seen him that way. And I was like, bro, Matt got no chill dog. Like, why are you upset?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, and it was because it was his thing. And he was like, I brought you guys on. I have more people today and less help.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Ye.

[A]

Imagine having more people and less help.

[B]

Yikes. Yeah.

[A]

And it was like. And it became so clear to me, I was like, this guy cares a lot about it. And he's like, yeah, because if I don't do this, I don't live. Like, this is my livelihood. He's like, to you, you wanted to hang out. But to me, like, I have this. I have to get this stuff finished.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I've never forgotten about that. It stained in my memory because there's been moments where, you know, I coach classes, strength and conditioning, and I have asked certain people to fill in for me, and I take them through and I'm like, hey, this is what you do. As soon as the students get in, this is their warm up. They get on the barbell, the barbell complex, the floor complex. They go back to the barbell complex, like, do this flow. And I break it down. I show videos, and then I have them shadow me. And I go, I want you to do it like this. You know, I have a little headset mic, so I feel like Britney Spears or like NSYNC to where I'm able room, you know, because there's so many students in there, Right. If I am not dialed in, someone can get hurt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I also care a lot about the programming. I care a lot about the kids. And there have been individuals who come in and they've been like, all right, so the workout's up on the board, so, like, get to it. Sure. And a kid gets hurt.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I was so fed furious, I laid into this person. But it made me realize, oh, that's a hireling. I'm a shepherd. And so I think the biggest thing that I think that in leadership, if you're someone in Leadership, you know what I'm talking about? It's like someone who. If you're a parent of a kid and then you have a babysitter and you're like, oh, the kid. Before they go to sleep, you know, you have to turn off all the lights in order for them to get good sleep. And you also have to turn on, you know, this little box fan. So that way there's. There's noise in there. And then you come home and the babysitter still has the lights on.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you're like, my kid is going to get bad sleep. You didn't turn the fan on. That sounds so small. That's. That happens. But it's because it's not their kid.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And when you tell them something, they take it as. It's not a command. They're like, oh, this is a good thought.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so what I. What it has helped me is become better at. This is a command. This is an expectation. This is a standard.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then the individual, what I have been in 20, 25, there's nothing more that I. I'm attracted to than another shepherd. It's a shepherd who is. Who is looking for a flock.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

That I'm like, hey, come and shepherd with me.

[B]

Yeah, Beautiful. Absolutely.

[A]

You know, because I'm like, I have a flock. You know, this is all. Allegorically speaking, of course, within the things that we do with. And so whenever I met. Whenever I was working at Victory downtown, which was a campus that we had, Arvind was running slides. But as I encountered Arvin, I was like, arvin is a shepherd just without.

[B]

A flock yet, praise God.

[A]

And it was like, arvin, will you come and help me with Victory production?

[B]

For sure.

[A]

Absolutely. Because there was. I saw the initiative. I saw the. The good. The good, like not making assumptions and like, oh, well, whatever.

[B]

Sure, sure, sure.

[A]

So anyways, I think that. That is if you are someone and you work at a business, if you have a boss, just know that if you can, like what you said, ask the question, what would I do if this was my own?

[B]

Right.

[A]

But still have open hands.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I have to do that with Pastor Paul.

[B]

Of course. Yeah.

[A]

You know, because at the end of the day, Pastor Paul is over the campuses.

[B]

Yes, that's right.

[A]

Even though I'm involved.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

At the end of the day, Mrs. Miller, who's the superintendent of the school, she's over the school.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even though I'm involved. Yeah. I still want to show ownership. So it's kind of like what? We've talked about this before on a previous podcast, but living invested but not attached.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Because if you're invested in something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You take initiative. Yeah. You don't make assumptions. You do it. You over communicate to be like, hey. Just to make sure that I'm clear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, man, I got another story. Hold on. I know I'm rambling right now. Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. So my daughter, she does. She does like some private lessons with semi private lessons. There's a group of people with like, like some volleyball lessons. Well, so anyways, there is the. The instructor was like, hey, we're going to be at this place. And. And it starts at this time. Well, I simultaneously drop my daughter off. It's here on property, but I'm over coaching the elementary kids. And I'm like, honey bun. That's what I call her. Honey. Whenever you're done, you know, walk over to the field and find me. Well, the time, I'm checking my clock because I'm like, she is my, my daughter and she's over at the school and she's walking across the parking lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, the time is. Is happening and she's not here. And I'm like, what's going on? And so I am busy, but I asked someone to take over and I call security and I'm like, hey, can you look on the mirror, you know, the cameras, and tell me, like, do you see my daughter? Because that's the great thing. We have 24 hour security, so they're able to quickly locate my daughter. And they're like, oh, yeah, she's just kind of wandering around in the gym. And I'm like, is she alone? And they go, yeah. And so I'm like, can you. And so basically we got connected, sent her over, and she was like, oh, yeah. The person never showed up. So I was just alone over there. Did anyone else show up and the individual had something come up and a prior commitment.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But there was no communication.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And oh my goodness, I had to calm myself down. I bet I wanted to flip a lid, I'm sure, because she is my daughter.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Well, and also I financially invested.

[B]

Oh, sure. Oh, yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, okay, so where does that money go now? And then I got a text after. It was like, hey, you know, this came up. I wasn't aware of it, but let's just reschedule for another day. And you know, I called this. I called and I had to calm myself Down. And I had to be like, hey, please take initiative with my daughter, who is 12 years old, of communication, bringing her over to me, because my daughter said that no one ever showed up.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And so just that. That it sounds. It may sound small to you, those of you who are listening, but that just doesn't fly with me for sure. Especially the fact that she was alone. Anyways, I think that what I'm looking for and what it did is it helped me communicate better to the individual who was running that session of, hey, in the future, this is what I expect. And I do believe that other parents would value this as well.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And that way, this individual is able to go, oh, okay, you know what? I'm sorry. It was a miscommunication. And so. But what I was looking for was just a little bit more care, you know?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And so anyways. And I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. These are all anecdotes.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

To reinforce the fact of being a shepherd and not a hireling in anything.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And in everything. Because I do believe that there is an honor there. Yeah, sure.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. I think people mistake instinct for talent.

[A]

Where if you're a hireling, breaking that down.

[B]

If you're a hireling and you're just doing precisely as you're told, and you live in that pattern for a while, and then you observe other people who are doing this other crazy stuff, and you go, wow, they're so talented. They're so talented. They're so talented. And it's like, well, actually, if you were to just take ownership of something, the instinct you would have to make things better, other people will go, oh, you're so talented, and goes, no, I just think it's mine. And so.

[A]

Ooh, that's good.

[B]

There are things that are just organic and natural for any human being where you can walk into a room, and if it's not your room, you don't really pay attention to the decor, the amount of natural light, the lighting, the temperature. You just go, I'm just here for a little while. It's like a waiting room for something. If you have that mentality about it, then, yeah, you're not going to necessarily love the rooms that you're in. But once you start to say, I live here now, you'll start paying attention to. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. Yesterday we were in a DLT meeting, and Pastor Paul was like, hey, guys, we're getting ready. Because Pastor Paul knows daylight fall back. Like, what do you call it? Daylight Savings Times, where you roll back the clock in November. He's like, that's coming up. We're doing more activities outside. And he goes, but our lights throughout the property are still set to spring, so they don't come on until 7:05. Like all the lights come on at 7:05. And he's like, but it's now getting dark at 6. And he's like, for safety, let's change that.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

But who else would have caught that?

[B]

Incredible, right?

[A]

But Pastor Paul caught that and was like, okay, this is what I want.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

And it's just because he is viewing it as this is. It is God's. This church is not Pastor Paul's and Pastor Ashley, of course, but it is, he is, he is a shepherd of it.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

You know, and that's why, you know, in our all staff, they always talk about if you walk by trash at Victory, pick it up.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And that small thing, it shows, like, okay, this is an ownership situation.

[B]

Totally. Yeah.

[A]

But anyway, so we basically just wanted to help encourage you that wherever you are at, and maybe if you're in leadership of something, whether it's a business or maybe if you're, if you are a stay at home mother or father and you're like, I wish my kids would be shepherds of their room. I feel the same way, you know, of cleaning up and things like that. But I think that this, this is something that can relate to everyone. And so what we want to encourage you with, and hopefully that you be. That we can all begin to realize is okay asking that question, how would I handle this if this was mine? How would I shepherd it? And I believe that on the other side of asking that question, you're going to have new marching orders literally today for sure. And tomorrow. And once those things are implemented, I do believe that there is a fruit that is produced that can only come from you taking ownership.

[B]

Beautiful. Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

So anyways, but thank you guys for listening.

[B]

Yeah, thanks guys. We'll see you next episode. Have a good week.

[A]

See you.

[B]

Bye. Bye.