Raising the Next Generation: Building a Healthy Culture in Ministry | Episode 35

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Victory Church: Paul Daugherty
Episode: Raising the Next Generation: Building a Healthy Culture in Ministry | Episode 35
Date: October 9, 2025
Host: Pastor Paul Daugherty
Guests: Pastor Josh Kahm, Pastor Joseph Kellogg, Pastor Jordan Camilo
Theme:
This episode dives deep into how Victory Church is shaping a healthy and sustainable culture in its youth and young adult ministries. Through candid personal stories and practical discussion, Pastor Paul Daugherty and his team unpack what it takes to reach and raise the next generation—both spiritually and organizationally—while staying rooted in authentic relationships, intentional leadership, and a heart for true impact over mere growth. The episode is rich with real-life experiences, leadership wisdom, and encouragement for anyone leading in ministry or looking to make a difference among young people.

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Introductions & Personal Journeys (00:00 – 19:21)

Meet the Team

• Pastor Josh Kahm (Youth & Young Adults Lead, 18–30s)

  • From Chicago, raised in the Philippines; eight years at Victory Church.
  • Inspired by his father, Dr. Chindo Kahm, an evangelist pivotal in bringing the Burmese community to Tulsa.
  • “I’m just thankful I get to be a part of building and growing a global church with a heart for the next generation.” (00:58)

• Pastor Joseph Kellogg (Lead Youth Pastor, since Summer 2025)

  • 24 years in youth and next-gen ministry; long-time friend and collaborator with Victory.
  • Father of four, has shepherded students through challenging eras (e.g., 9/11) and sees longevity as key to impact.
  • “Consistency brings the breakthrough.” (06:20)
  • “In youth ministry…you have that mindset: I’m raising you up to release you out.” (08:07)

• Pastor Jordan Camilo (Youth Pastor, Boston native, Brazilian background)

  • Life transformed after a near-fatal accident (2022), which led to a radical turnaround and move to Tulsa.
  • Personal experience of being mentored, then volunteering tirelessly, eventually joining staff.
  • Passionate about reaching public school students and breaking the mold of ministry limited to church walls.
  • “I want to be someone for these kids that I wish someone was for me when I was younger.” (18:04)

Key Quotes & Moments

• On Calling & Longevity:
  “The longer I stayed in youth ministry and really saw the kingdom impact… I thought, man, I want to be at the epicenter of that.” — Joseph (07:45)
• “It’s not how many we have at our youth service… It’s realizing the multiplication: wait, on a Wednesday, we’re making an impact on 100,000 students, not just 100.” — Joseph (08:49)

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Principles for Impacting the Next Generation (19:21 – 26:51)

The Power of Presence

• Jordan describes how serving in local public schools—starting with no established relationships—led to hundreds of students getting connected to church, giving their lives to Christ, and creating real community.
  • “The best way to reach your own community is to be present in your community.” — Paul (22:00)
  • “To reach a community, you’ve got to be in the community.” — Joseph (23:21)
• Consistency, not flash or technology, is key. Being seen “in the stands” (games, lunches) speaks louder than any social media campaign.

Notable Quotes

• “Consistency compounds, but consistent presence makes lasting impact.” — Joseph (24:52)
• “Abandonment is what they expect. If you just show up consistently over time, you beat that expectation.” — Joseph & Paul (24:55)
• “Technology can help, but physical presence is what changes lives.” — Paul (22:00)

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Building Healthy, Sustainable Ministry (26:51 – 40:12)

Growth: More Than Numbers

• Focus isn’t on numbers, but health and sustainability.
• Health indicators: number of leaders developed, student leaders, first-time guests becoming followers of Christ, and systems that support foundation over hype.
• “Healthy things grow, but big doesn’t mean healthy… Swelling goes down; growth lasts.” — Joseph (27:45–28:11)
• Avoiding “incentive culture”: “If you create an invite culture, they’re coming to grow in Christ.”—Joseph (29:44)

Foundations and Slow Growth

• Ministry takes time (“build your house on the rock”): slow growth is sustainable; quick hype is not.
• “We don’t serve numbers. Numbers serve us.”—Jordan (31:47)
• Emphasis on reconstructing culture from the inside out (deconstruction of unhealthy elements to rebuild a healthy, mission-focused team).

Student Ownership

• Students, not just staff, are taking initiative and inviting others. Leadership and healthy culture are replicated through modeling, not mandates.

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Culture & Leadership Red Flags (40:12 – 55:09)

Recognizing What’s Unhealthy

• Red flags: lack of challenge to leadership, division, isolation, “Eeyore syndrome” (persistent negativity), turnover without evaluation, leaders not growing.
• “If you can’t challenge an idea privately and leave united publicly, that’s a red flag.”—Paul (44:17)
• Leadership issues often trickle into team culture; systems, buy-in, and self-reflection matter.

Assessing and Protecting Culture

• Evaluate regularly: Why is one area thriving and another stagnant? Is it a will issue (attitude) or skill issue (ability)?
• “You’re always one step away from stupid.”—John Maxwell quote (51:04)
• Accountability, healthy confrontation, and willingness to be developed are essential.

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Heart of Ministry & Lasting Impact (55:09 – End)

Rooted Identity and Faithfulness

• The “success” of ministry is measured by faithfulness, not popularity or numbers. Personal stories highlight the need for trust, submission to leadership, and serving the local vision.
• “You can’t be over something until you come under something.” — Paul (56:45)
• “Well done, good and faithful servant. It’s not well done, good and popular, or exciting—it’s about faithfulness.” — Josh (54:47)

Notable Final Quotes

• “Our value… does not change based on how big the youth group gets, how many volunteers are serving… Our Father in heaven is proud of us.” — Paul (61:39)
• “We’re impressed by all these numbers, but the church is meant to do more than impress; we’re meant to impact.” — Josh (55:09)

Memorable Moment

• Visual Object Lesson (59:00):
  Paul shares a plaque from his desk: “Your father is well pleased with you,” signifying unchanging identity and value before God—apart from performance or results. He encourages every leader to remember their worth and approval begins with being a son or daughter, not an achiever.

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Key Takeaways

• Relational ministry trumps digital strategies — Consistency, trust, and real-life presence are irreplaceable.
• Health > Hype — Building solid, healthy foundations is less glamorous but leads to lasting impact and legacy.
• Leadership humility & accountability — Vulnerability, team buy-in, and honest assessments guard against toxicity.
• Identity in Christ — Ministry success is rooted in knowing God’s pleasure is based on relationship, not results.
• Invitation to examine — Listeners are challenged to identify what unhealthy systems, attitudes, or barriers they need to deconstruct and rebuild for lasting, kingdom impact.

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:00 – Introductions / Pastor journeys and backgrounds
• 06:20 – On longevity, calling, and raising up students
• 10:00 – The value of finding and staying in your unique ministry lane
• 16:05 – Jordan’s testimony: from crisis to calling
• 19:25 – Public school outreach stories: presence over programming
• 23:21 – Principle of “showing up” in community
• 27:19 – Defining and measuring healthy growth in ministry
• 31:47 – Student-led culture and buy-in
• 37:22 – Deconstruction / Reconstructing healthy culture
• 41:22 – Red flags in ministry, leadership, and team culture
• 50:18 – Staying green: keeping your heart healthy and humble
• 54:07 – Trust, submission, and the true measure of success
• 59:00 – “Your father is well pleased” object lesson and closing reminder
• 61:39 – Final encouragements & episode sign-off

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For Listeners

Whether you’re a ministry leader, volunteer, parent, or anyone passionate about impacting young people, this episode is packed with encouragement, gritty real talk, and wisdom for building something that lasts—one life, one relationship, one step of faithful presence at a time.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey, what's up, friends? My name's Paul. Welcome to the Paul cast. I'm sitting here with my brothers in ministry. We work together. And these are the pastors that reach our next generation. We got Pastor Josh Kahm, Pastor Joseph Kellogg, Pastor Jordan Camilo. And I'm going to let them just real quickly, like, introduce themselves to you, tell. Tell you a little bit of who they are and what they do at Victory to reach the next generation. Or we'll start with Josh, and then we'll kind of come around.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Hey, my name is Josh. Get the opportunity of serving our youth and our young adults. Have been here for, I think, eight years now, since I was 21.

[A]

Eight years.

[B]

Eight years. So since 2017.

[A]

But again, went to OU, right?

[B]

Yes, went to OU or sooner. Come on. Jinx Grad as well. So go Trojans. But while obviously I'm here at Victory, So also go Conquerors. Go Conquerors. The Bothan. But yes. So been in Oklahoma, but again, born Chicago. Like, raised in the Philippines. Kind of been all over. So I'm just thankful I get to be a part of building and growing a global church with a heart for the next generation.

[A]

And you specifically focus on. You and your wife focus on which age bracket.

[B]

At victory, it's 18 through 30. So young adults just in that college and that young professional years. Yeah.

[A]

And when you first came on staff, your focus was youth ministry. Junior high.

[B]

Yeah. Middle school.

[A]

Okay, real quick, before we move on, you also grew up with a dad who was a pastor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a legendary pastor. Tell him real quick about just your dad's ministry and. And before he passed away.

[B]

Yeah, well, my dad, Dr. Chindo Calm is it was pastor evangelist. Just did a lot of work with the nation of Burma and the nation of Burma in every single country, I guess you could say. A massive thing is we've got about. I believe there's about 30 to 40,000 Burmese people now here in Tulsa. It's the greatest. What is it like? Immigrant concentrated area of Burmese people, which is here in Tulsa. Yep.

[A]

Why Tulsa? Why did all Burmese people come here so much?

[B]

So my dad, once we lived here. My dad, he worked with United nations to open up a refugee line back in 2000 and about 1314. Wow. There was a big cyclone that hit then. And so they were like, well, we're just going to go where the guy that opened up the refugee line is. And so they all started coming over here. Multiple churches started growing. And my dad just continued to do ministry and just building the Burmese people all around the world. So.

[A]

And he had a church of a few thousand Burmese people that were.

[B]

So he was. He never specifically had his own church, but he helped build churches into that in Tulsa. Yeah, he was. He was a huge evangelist. He did a lot of traveling.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The nation, so.

[A]

Well, he passed away in year 2013. 13. Few years after my father passed away. And I remember being at the funeral service and seeing you and just seeing the impact of your father. And I just had this. I don't know, just this endearment, because I was like, man, Josh is a pastor's son. His dad was legendary pastor reaching people. I know what that's like, growing up with a father who was legendary and reaching people. And it made me want to stay in touch with you. Little did I know that a few years after that, you would be working on staff with us. And here you are eight years later, and your wife and I. Not your wife and I, your wife. And you just found out you guys are having a baby, and you just announced what the gender was.

[B]

Yes, we're having a baby.

[A]

Girl.

[B]

Come on.

[C]

Come on. We're stoked.

[B]

Girl dad.

[A]

Girl dad. Well, this podcast will come out probably a few weeks after we've recorded it, but I think that's pretty amazing. It's your first child, and so we're pumped for you. Ashley and I have been just champions of you guys since you started dating. But I want to come over here and let's start with Pastor Joseph. Tell them a little bit about who you are. And since you've been at Victory.

[C]

Yeah. Joseph Kellogg, the lead youth pastor here at Victory Church now for a few months. So I came on summer of 2025.

[A]

Come on.

[C]

Here we are. Jumped right into youth camp. Like, that was, like, first week we were at youth camp out there. Out there at Camp Victory. And so. But have spent the last 24 years in youth ministry, next gen ministry, and just believing the next generation still in it and expecting God to continue to move here in this house. And even my shirt says, at Tulsa, the nations, we want to make a kingdom impact around the world and believe that Victory Church can be an epicenter of that. And I've been a friend of Victory Church and Pastor Paul for years. I think I started kind of hanging out in the youth department here at Victory church. Gosh. Maybe 2013 did some stuff for the youth pastor then. And then since then, over the years, we kind of make my way back up to Tulsa and hang out at camp or conference or a youth leaders event. So it's cool. Full circle. To be as a guest kind of in and out over the last, you know, 10 plus years than now to just actually be here and work with guys like Josh and Jordan. And it's been a lot of fun.

[A]

Now you've been doing youth ministry for how many years?

[C]

24 years.

[A]

24 years. You started when you were 15?

[C]

Oh, yeah, right. There's gray hair under here. I was 19. It was two weeks before my 20th birthday when I became a youth pastor. Wow. So. So yeah, 20, 19 years old, you.

[A]

Took on your first youth. Youth pastor job.

[C]

Yep. So my. I led our students through 9, 11. So it's, it's wild to think about just all the different, you know, time periods I've got to serve Pre iPhone, pre YouTube.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So you had to like get a message from the Bible. You couldn't, you couldn't like watch someone else's message way, you know, no AI. But it's all those same things of what we do today. It still is. Like relationships.

[A]

The same principles apply.

[C]

Oh, the same principles apply. Yeah, A hundred percent. Now we just have more access to be in front of students because of technology. But so yeah, 20, 24 years and have had, you know, I have two kids in college, one in high school, and then a son in elementary school. So I've actually got to see, you know, some of those principles applied in our own house and, and see our kids thrive as well after high school. So, yeah, it's been fun.

[A]

I want to say this to those that are listening, watching, because we've got a lot of pastors, leaders, and then people that aren't in ministry, but you're a leader in some kind of sector in your life. And I think about how Joseph has stuck with something for 24 years. Consistency brings the breakthrough. Joseph has seen this compounding impact of not just what God has done through his life, but through people. He's raised up teenagers that he's gotten to pastor and now see those teenagers raising families of their own and raising children of their own. And thinking back to when you were 19 and you first started pastoring, did you think, in your mind, I want to do this the rest of my life, or did the calling continue to grow as each year went on in youth ministry?

[C]

I think the calling continued to grow. When I first started, I had more people asking me when I was like, 20, 21, 22, like, when are you going to be a lead pastor? And I think a part of it was because we wore suits on Sundays. Yeah, I was still Sitting on the stage. When I first started youth ministry, which is wild to think about, and I think there was a perceived like, hey, wait, here's this young fiery preacher leader, you need to go be a lead pastor. But I think the longer I stayed in youth ministry and really saw the, the kingdom impact of raising up students that would live missional lives after high school, I thought, man, what would it like? I want to be at the epicenter of that now with that, I'll always say kind of like a college coach where you're, you have great leaders, they're always leaving where you know, as a lead pastor, you'll have someone on your team. Even we have people here on staff that's been on staff for 20 years. Yeah, in youth ministry, that's usually not the case. You have that mindset. I'm raising you up to release you out. And I think year after year, just falling more in love with helping students, man, how could we have a large kingdom impact? And in those years where they're forming their, their ideology, they're forming their faith, they're forming who they are. And so being at the center of that comes a lot of problems because that's also the season of their life, that their highs are high, their lows are low. And so I would say, yeah, year after year, continuing to see that fruit and falling in love with the process of seeing students grow to know Jesus and make him known. I think that did compound and seeing what you said. A lot of former students and interns going into full time ministry and seeing the kingdom math differently. It's not how many we have at our youth service, it's wait, this person is a part of our ministry. This person. And you realize the multiplication of wait on a Wednesday. We're making an impact on 100,000 students, not just 100 students. And I think that I, I, I just started seeing impact and legacy different. Who knows, one day I'll grow up and be a big pastor. But I'm still loving youth street pastor.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

That's right. I remember going to hospital calls when I was first in ministry and they're like, oh, they sent the little pastor. I'm like, no, I mean, I can pray, I hope for your surgery just like the rest of them.

[A]

Come on, come on.

[C]

But y, I, I think knowing that, and I would say I'm fine. I've, I've done a few other things like been on an executive team. I've, I've led next gen. And I just think I used the, the idea of coach Nick Saban, you know, went to the NFL, didn't really work out. He just like he was designed to be a college football coach. And I think that's something I look and go, man, maybe I am a lifer. People look at it 24 years, a long time, but I've seen the impact and realize, hey, this is, this is a strength of mine and I can bring help and health to the church from my seat on the bus as well.

[A]

100%. Well, you think about. I love what you just said about Nick Saban, but I also think about how people who are gifted in an area we just got off this whole current conversation of Charlie Kirk and how Charlie, had he gone on to go and pastor a church, he would have forfeited the impact he was making of sticking with college students and sticking with being a debater on the streets of campuses. To me, it's like once you find a niche that you are gifted at and you feel a passion and an excitement, that to me is worth more than trading it in for something more comfortable, something more, oh, this is what peer pressure from crowd is telling me I should transition to being a pastor. But if it's like, man, man, I actually still feel this niche calling that I'm gifted at pouring into this area, pour gasoline on that and watch that explode with impact more than taking on a big, bigger role in some people's eyes, you know, And I think, man, like what you guys are doing, I, at times I'm jealous of Yalls opportunity to just focus on youth ministry because it is, it is a genuine joy and opportunity to get to impact a teenager's life in the most formative years. A 14 year old, 12 year old, a 17 year old that hasn't left their house yet. You get the chance to introduce them to Jesus, discipleship, the Bible, the Holy Spirit. And man, I like there's, there's some real, genuine like excitement that I see just building in that whole area that gets me like, man, I want to be in that. I want to be in that department more. And that's why I wanted to have you guys on the podcast. Because I was like, I got to talk to these guys. Guys, before I go on to Jordan, let me just say this. You called me the first week of May of this year, 2025, and you said God is stirring something in my heart. I wanted you to know that I haven't called any other pastors. I wanted to just see if God has anything that's stirring at victory in the realm of what I love to do with youth ministry. And I was like, wait a minute. First off, I've been trying to hire you since I stepped in pastor, because we. You've helped us with our youth pastors and our Youth Ministry since 2013. And right during that time, we had just had someone step out of our youth ministry, and we were in need. We had a gap. Jordan had just stepped in, but I was like, man, we need someone else that is in an age bracket older than Jordan that can help bring in just the stability with parents and that understands some of the parenting questions of, like, you know, is my teenager going to be safe? What's going on there? And not that Jordan couldn't do that, because Jordan can, but I felt like we needed someone else. And when you called, it was like a ram in the thicket. And I literally told Ashley. I got off the phone, and I was like, babe, I feel like God is forming the Avengers at Victory. I was like, we got Jordan over here, and you're going to hear from him. We got Josh calm, but we needed someone like you. And when you made that phone call, I really felt like it was the Holy Spirit. It was like God was bringing Captain America. He was bringing the team together. And I feel that. And. And we're sensing, like, we're seeing the momentum. We'll talk about it here in a little bit. But anyways, I just want to say I'm grateful that you're on the team and that you and Corby and your kids came here, and it's genuinely like, we're.

[C]

We're.

[A]

We're seeing our best days yet. Jordan, tell them your story of how you ended up at Victory.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And your role.

[D]

So I'm from Boston, Massachusetts. I have a very dear friend that used to live with me in Boston. His name is Lucas. He used to be a part of Victory. Went through Victory College. My family, so just very. Keeping it very short. But my parents had split up, and this was around when I was, like, 13, 14. And it just led me on a downward spiral. They brought us up in church in the sense of. Cause I'm Brazilian, so in Brazilian culture, it's like Sundays to be at church, and that's it. Like, there's nothing else that we should be doing other than just attending. You know, check it off the list and go on to Monday. So I was at the church, and Lucas was like, almost in a sense, like my first ever youth pastor. Well, like, he lived with us, but he was also like the guy that was like, hey, like, yo, we have an emergency, we gotta go to the church. And I remember I'm like 13, 12, and we're like going to the car running, and then he's bringing us to the church at midnight to pray, like he's teaching us how to pray. And I was like, okay. So then years later, I got involved with some crazy, wild night, like, wild stuff. Because my dad was not present, my mom was not present in my life. My grandfather really was the one that took care of us and kind of taught us the way, but I just didn't care. So then Lucas was always keeping in touch with me, even though while he was here in Tulsa, he's like, man, God wants to change your life, dude, that God wants to change your life. And I got into a accident December 20th of 2022, where I almost lost my life. And all of a sudden, in the midst of that, like the accident, Lucas calls my phone. And I'm just sitting there kind of like thinking like, man, I gotta change my lifestyle. Can't keep doing all this stuff anymore. And I answered the phone, he's like, yo, bro, this guy's about to call you in a couple minutes. He's about to tell you about a church and I'm gonna fly you out. And hangs up the phone. I was like, couple seconds later, Pastor Jason calls me. He's like, hey, what it sounds like, you know, I spoke with Lucas. What it sounds like is that you need godly community and you need to, you know, if I'm be honest with you, you need to be put on the straight and narrow. I'm looking at the phone, I was like, I don't even know this guy.

[A]

And I was like, this is our Bible college director.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And I'm just looking at it, I'm like, you know, Lucas said he'll buy a flight. And in my head I'm thinking, I'll be gone for like two days, come right back, you know, come stay clear of everything. But little did I know, he bought me a one way flight to Tulsa. I get here, land at January 7, 2023. I'll never forget it. The day the Lord changed my life. I get to here, I look at this building, I'm like, yo, this is a big building. He's like, yeah, this is the church. Now get out. So I get out the car, he's like, I was like, where am I going? He's like, go inside for service and just know that I'll be back in like two, three hours, just staying for service. And that was the Day you preached death to maybe that. That completely rocked my whole entire life and made me realize, like, I needed to give my life to God. And not only did I need to, like, I ran down to the altar. I'll never forget. I ran to the altar, and then you were praying for people, and you're like, hey, like. Like, what is it that you're here for? I was like, I need to give my life to God. I don't know what that means. I just need to give my life to God. So then I did. But then I woke up the next day. I was like, what next? And I'm calling Lucas. I'm like, yo, you kind of abandoned me. And he's like, yo, put it this way, bro. I enrolled you at Victory College. You're living there at the apartments, and I'm not coming back. And I was like. And then I met, like, the Brazilians from here, and, like, everybody knew who I was before I even got here. So they're like, yeah, what's up, bro? I remember Pastor Josh was one of the guys. Like, yo, man, like, what's up? Like, you know, Lucas told me about you. I was like, I don't even know you. Like, get away from me. But then Pastor Josh ended up discipling me from the day I got here until now. And I worked in security for those, like, two years that I've been here and was serving at youth those two years as well. Like, I used to argue with my boss, be like, hey, you can work me every day except for Wednesday. Like, I don't care. Wednesdays is the days that I feel like I need to be serving at youth because I want to be someone for these kids that I wish someone was for me when I was younger.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

And, you know, being able to speak to a sixth grader about the word of God and even just follow their journey from middle school to high school, that's something that, like, every kid, every student needs to have is someone who's consistent, committed, and willing to communicate with them at all times.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And then I remember when I got the. I used to go up to. I'm. I'm gonna admit this, but I used to go up to Pastor Josh and be like, yo, if there's ever an opening at youth, bro, like, I'm always down, and I'm in my security uniform, and I used to just be here in the offices.

[A]

I remember this.

[D]

I used to just come in and be like, yo, bro, I'm always down. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought I was annoying him.

[A]

He would come and tell me. He'd be like, hey, what do you think about Jordan stepping into a position? I'd be like, bro, I love it. Let's keep him on that journey. Let's keep him on that path.

[D]

And I used to tell him, I was like, yo, they're trying to work me on Wednesday. He's like, man, just follow. Like, be obedient. I was like, yeah, I got you. I'd come to youth in my security uniform, and I'd just be at youth. And then he's like, man, guy really is committed. And I was like, yeah. And then I remember I got the call from Pastor Josh. I started balling my eyes out. I was like, bro, I'm. I'm.

[A]

That was this year in February or March or April.

[B]

April.

[D]

Like, end of April, going into May. And I was like, bro, I'm going to go hard for the schools, bro. Like, I'm already going to schools, but I'm going to go even harder now. I don't got to put the vest on. I was like, I'm ready for this.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And I was. And I just been rocking it. Like, I go to schools almost every other day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just when you said going to schools, people that are listening and watching online, they don't fully know what you mean. Tell them what you mean by going to schools as a volunteer.

[D]

So when I was just working security, I remember I came into Pastor Josh's office. I was like, yo, I just feel this strong passion to go into public schools. And he's like, what for? And I was like, man, like, I feel like there's a. Like, you know, there's a Christian schools that are around Tulsa, and, you know, they get their portion of the Bible, they get their portion of the Word. But what about the public school kids? Because I was a public school kid, and I never received it. Especially in the East Coast. There was no Bible. It was all Catholicism, like, Buddhist and Muslims and all that other stuff. But it's like, I never got a portion of the Word in school. And to see, like, vcs, everyone get a portion of the Word. I was like, man, I want to be able to go to the public schools in Tulsa and just make a connection. So I remember the first school I went to was Union Public School. And I knocked on the door, I walked in, I got my volunteer. I was like, hey, like, I'm just here to serve. I was serving lunch at first. Like, I used to go to the lunch line, clean up.

[A]

You didn't have Necessarily a relationship with the teenagers yet. Not.

[D]

Not a single soul yet.

[A]

And then I was a cold call, but literally in person.

[D]

And I was in the lunch lines and the kids like, yo, I've seen you before, you security officer. I was like, yeah, what's up? Like, just fist bumping them. Then I started going to football games, and they're like, yo, this guy, this guy's here. Like, he's, he's here to stay. So then I was like, you know what? I'm gonna take a step of faith. And I remember I told Pastor Josh, I was like, I'm ready to just go full out. Like, I'm gonna start introducing the gospel because I was trying to study the law. Like, hey, how do I do this? How do I respect? And then I get a weigh in with one of the teachers. The teacher's like, yo, I host a Bible study during lunches.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

He's like, how about you come through and then I'll invite students and you invite students. So I went straight to the football team. And then it started with Union, and then we had 115 kids show up the first day when I went to go speak to them. And out of the 115, 80 of them gave their life to Christ. And then I went to Morris Public School, and then we did a Fields of Faith, and it was like, almost 150 kids gave their life to Jesus. And then we went to, like, Edison. We started going to other schools. And I just been staying in contact with them. I'm like, hey, like, I'm here, like, because I go to these schools. I'm like, they're like, man, you're the first guy from one of the churches that comes to our school and doesn't ask for anything in return. Like, you're just wanting to serve. Like, you just want to be here.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Which is a little weird, but, like, you just. You just want to be here. I was like, yeah, I just want to serve you guys. Because that's what my church does. We serve people. Yeah, we're blessed to be a blessing. And I want to be a blessing to your school.

[A]

Come on. Well, let me just say this because I think sometimes for people that are out there watching, listening, when, when. When the question comes of how do I. How do I reach the next generation? How do I go after the youth of our nation? I think the principles, like Joseph said earlier, haven't changed for years. It is building a personal relationship. It is not just social media, although social media can help. But what I just heard you Say Jordan, is you went to Union and you physically made connections with people not through a phone, not through social media, not through TikTok, Instagram. They didn't know you as some celebrity preacher. They knew you as the guy who showed up to their school, showed up to their games, showed up at their cafeteria. And physically, your presence is what connected them to church, to God, to a positive impact. And I just think that's important because, like, you know, there's a lot of people out there that are relying too much on technology, as if that's the only means to reach a generation. And technology can reach maybe people in another nation. But the best way to reach your own community is to be present in your community. Maybe say a word about that. Joseph, I know you're going to be doing a conference, speaking to the youth pastors.

[C]

I think something. It's. It. We were even talking, like, early on, not having social media. So I think social media is a tool because you get to be in the hand of a student. We are sending mailers, you know, we're like, you know, can't wait to see you. You know, they're getting stuff in the mail. But that connection to students, to reach a community, you got to be in the community. And Victory Church does that so well. But that's a principle for youth ministry is like, where are they? You know, think about Friday Night Lights in Oklahoma and Texas and this region of America. That's where everyone's at. So if you're like, man, how do we go where they're at? Well, there's in the fall, every Friday Night Football, they're there, you know, and so I think students want. It's interesting because I think Jordan said something there of like, oh, you're just showing up, up because you want to serve us. We're always asking students, we're asking people in our church, like, hey, come to our thing. Come to our event. They'll actually show up when you show up for them. And so. And even parents like, yo, this guy's. Have you been to service yet? Like, they parents become advocates of the youth ministry because of your physical presence. Because consistency compounds, but consistent presence makes, like, lasting impact. And I think that's the thing. You just can't come in one time and dab a bunch of students up and think that you're good. It's over time because especially if we get into the data of how many families are, you know, divorced families, you know, teachers, coaches leaving, if you just show up consistently over time, abandonment is.

[A]

Like, what they expect you're going to abandon me? You won't be here next week.

[C]

Exactly. And so that's like, oh, what's up, ma'? Am? And you're awesome. And dude, students, they're like, okay, great. Like, they like, I feel it being new where they're just like, all right, show them what you got.

[A]

Ten months from now, let's see where you're at.

[C]

Oh, you showed up one time. Are you going to show up again? So I, it's so interesting, the power of showing up. Yes, it, it's your time, but I even think it's, it's learning. Well, I have office life stuff. You can show up. You know, if a football practice at 7am you can show up and connect with some coaches and some football players. You know, a volleyball games at 5 o' clock in the afternoon, you can show up. It's, you don't. I think a lot of times when we think about ministry and ministry and proximity, because that's what Jesus did for like, we think, oh, man, our whole life I won't have time with my family. No, it's, it's, Jesus did ministry as he went. So when you look at your schedule, you could actually put on your schedule, oh, we want to reach the community. Well, how many times on your schedule on your calendar? As Michael Hyatt says, what gets on the calendar gets done. It's like on your calendar, is there any time that you're going to the schools, is there any time that you're showing up to the game? If it's on your calendar, it's not happening. So I, I, it's an encouragement to just go. It's not as hard as you think, but you have to show up and show up. Consistency, consistently.

[A]

You know, I think about like growing anything, whether it's growing a church or growing a business or growing a school, I think it's like you continue to build off your wins and off of the relational influencers that you win them over and they start winning over their friends. Like if you went over that the football captain of OU or of Union, that captain is going to have influence on the linebackers and on the quarterback and whoever it is. But I think about how as you're winning those people over, they start telling their friends. Yeah, they start telling their friends and all of a sudden your youth group goes from 50 people to 100 to 200 to 300.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you make sure. And this is something I wanted to talk to you guys about. Not just youth, but young adults in general. Just reaching the next generation. How do you make sure that you're not just getting all the numbers to grow, but you're growing something that is healthy and that, that people that are coming, they're becoming healthy as a result of coming to what you're building. And I want to hear that from all three of you. But we'll start with Joseph and then we'll come, come around, I think.

[C]

And we're, that's what we're doing. Like, like, like for us, it's in the scoreboard. And so it's that kind of like lead indicators, lag indicators. Like that whole kind of concept is we know if, if, if we have more leaders that allows us to steward more students. So that's a, a number that's connected to health. Like, so you look and go, are you healthy? Because, you know, we, we love, think healthy things grow.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So, but big doesn't mean health. Like, I, I have a few L lbs on me.

[A]

Unhealthy things grow too.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Weeds wee everywhere.

[C]

Yeah, well, it's the idea of like, yeah, if I fall down and hit my elbow, it swells up, but swelling goes down. Yeah. So the difference between swelling and growth is like, growth takes consistency. You know, I think about your brother John. He has muscles and Do I have muscles? That's right, you do. You do have muscles.

[B]

Bigger muscles.

[A]

It's like, I think about, not you, but your brother, he has muscles.

[C]

He's always walking around in shorts, though. So you get to see them a little. But I was going to say, you don't look at someone with muscles and go, how'd they get those? You know, the work it took to get those. Like, that's healthy growth. But sometimes you can fall and hit your elbow and it swells up and it gets a lot of attention. But what happens to attention? It goes down. And so to me, it's looking at your scoreboard and going, how many leaders do we have? How many student leaders do we have? How many first time guests do we have? What I've seen in 24 years of youth ministry, half of our first time guests give their life to Jesus. And so if there's, you know, 12 first time guests, six will give their life to Jesus. I can't say mathematically proven as long as I've done it. And that's when we celebrate. Hey, when you invite your friends, this is what happens. So those things start growing. Your youth ministry starts growing. Because you can give me a budget. We can throw a lot of pizza. If you create an incentive culture, they Come for the incentives. But if you create an invite culture, they're coming to grow in Christ. So I think for us coming in and our team, we've been kind of going, hey, we put like a four year strategy together. Like, I don't think we'll have, we'll do some kind of slight light invite nights. But our first like big invite night isn't until like next September. You're like, wait, are you not inviting students? Yeah, our youth ministry is growing, it's doubled. But we're not like, hey, come and we're giving away all this free stuff. And this is why you need to come. Yeah, we want, because when they show up, we want to actually, what's our process when they say yes to Jesus? Are we helping disciple them? Do we have community groups for them to be a part of? So it's slowing down to build it. You know what Jesus say? Build your house upon the rock. It takes a lot more time to build on a rock, to think about legitimately, logistically, the drilling, all this stuff, all that hard work to build a house on a rock. We're going to do the hard work of building on the rock so that when storms come, because storms are going to come in soon. As lives, they have a strong foundation. So for us, it's changing the scoreboard. Like that attendance number will take care of itself. When you work on all the other things, it's like the idea of, hey, eating right and exercising. You'll see the results over time. But if you get so caught up on the scale, that'll throw you off sometimes. And so I even had a guy that I was doing like, like fitness stuff with one time and he's like, never look at the scale. I'm like, really? He's like, you'll feel it in your clothes that you're getting more healthy. And it's the idea of kind of a healthy culture. Sometimes not is what's on the screen. It's, it's, you feel it, it's a feeling like you feel that culture building. And so that's what we're doing. We're going the long way, we're going the, the more difficult way. But it's going to be a, a ministry that lasts. You know, if you go fast, it won't last. And that's just experience I've had because I've, I've seen the ma. I could have a big night.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it would be awesome and everybody would love it on social media. But the reality is the next week it's Just like, girl. And like, wait, how are we building something? Even for us, it's. We're going to follow trends, not totals. We're going to look at attendance trends. Not one big night or one low night. It's more of, hey, we had three big nights. Wait, there's something. What's this look like? So, anyway, rambling a little bit, but, yeah, I think it's changing that scoreboard us, even what we focus on. We've spent the last three months on just building a leadership team, adding student leaders, like, all that stuff. We have yet to have, like, a, hey, invite your friends next week. They're doing it.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

But we're focused on building our foundation first.

[A]

Come on. I love it, Jordan.

[D]

I feel like in our group, especially our youth group, I feel like one thing that Pastor Joseph always tells the team is that, you know, we don't serve numbers. Numbers serve us. So, like, if we keep looking at the numbers, then we're going to keep being so focused on, like, oh, well, this week we had this. This week we had that. But it's like, what are you doing to sustain what it is that we have going on anyway? So I just look at it from the side of, like, you know, I really got to witness firsthand, like, a deconstruction into a reconstruction. Like, we deconstructed all of the things that weren't healthy in the youth ministry. And I'm witnessing, like, we are witnessing the reconstruction of something extremely healthy.

[A]

Come on.

[D]

Like, you know, when you first start that diet, it's like, you don't want to. It's, like, annoying. And, you know, you gotta really push yourself to it. But it's like, we all pushed ourselves to it. When I say that, it's like we're all learning each other. We're all learning. Who's like, what are you gifted at? What are you called to? Like, what is it? And, like, we are starting to slowly, like, you know, we're starting to slowly have that dream team of, like, yo, this is the Jordan Pippen, like, all that stuff. And the reason why I say this, cause, like, we're moving at such a great pace where, like, culture's already being established, and we're not, like, pushing it heavy to the students. Like, the students are inviting other students. The students are responding to the altars and filling out the forms. The students are leading worship, and the high school kids that come are leading the way for the younger. For the younger students, we have students serving and being more involved. Like, we had students asking us about student leadership before we even launched student leadership. So it's like they witnessed. The students are also witnessing, like, the team is, like, taking things slow. Yes. But they're doing things in a way so that they can get healthy. And they're witnessing, like, healthy leadership. They're witnessing a reconstruction of leadership. And the team, you know, just building so that we can, you know, it's. Everything's inside out. We can't just have outward things and then it doesn't reflect what's actually inside. Like, we're having our youth. Like, our youth ministry is literally reflecting everything that we're doing internally, which is rebuilding and growing. Like, we rather take our time and take four steps forward than rush and take a step forward and be and fall backwards, like 10 places. So it's like we're really taking our time, but it's like, it's like the proof is in the pudding type. So I feel like with our youth ministry, what's like keeping the students close is like our relationship with their parents, our relationship with the students just showing up, being committed, consistent, and just like internal, Just like figuring things out together.

[A]

Yeah. I love it. What were you gonna say?

[C]

I was gonna say, I think too, we've been working a lot behind the scenes, so there's a lot of work in the kitchen, you know, and so you're kind of reestablishing this buy in. You're reestablishing trust. And so we're putting a lot of work in. But I think something else is. I've kind of called it like the Babe Ruth principle. Babe Ruth called a shot. So we're actually not. Which back in the day, they would tell you not to, but we're getting up and telling students, this is the youth ministry we're going to become. And we're not hiding that from them. This is what we're going to become. We're a missional youth movement. This is what this means. And we've been talking about it, celebrating it, and then even, like our leadership team, there's this. You're sensing this buy in because we're just repeating it and. And letting. So we're not just like, like. And again, students want to know the truth. We're not just like, hey, cool, another Wednesday night. We're like, no, this is what we're doing. We're building something bigger than ourselves and connecting them to the local church. This is, hey, you want to serve this Saturday? Because we have a dream center you can serve at. Like, hey, this is how you can serve on Sunday. In kids ministry, we're buying them into. We want them to be lifelong followers of Jesus. Not just like the trend of coming to youth ministry on a Wednesday night. But I think a big part of. Of moving towards health is actually saying where we're going, and we keep repeating that on a regular basis.

[A]

Yeah. Well, before I move to Josh, I want to say this. It's interesting how you said deconstructing to reconstruct that word. Deconstructing is like it's a trigger word because so many people have used it to deconstruct their walk with Christ and the Bible and their theology. But I think taking it in terms of a culture and looking at, you know, when Ashly and I took over victory in 2014, my parents had built a beautiful, amazing church. However, over the years of them starting it in 1981 and then us stepping into 2014, there were some things that weren't in the healthiest of place. And I don't think it was my dad and mom's fault. I think it was just nature, just human nature. You had people that had grown in some toxic ways. When my father passed of cancer in 2009, my mom stepped in for five years before I stepped into Pastor. And during those five years, you had ushers, greeters, youth pastors, children's church workers, nursery workers that had become dysfunctional in the culture that was once super healthy when my parents started it. But anything that doesn't. It doesn't stay intentionally checked up on and following up on and going, hey, what's going on over here? It can gradually have some weeds growing. You know, we have. Ashlyn, I. We have weeds that constantly pop up in our flower bed. We'll pull them out, we'll cut them out, and yet somehow they come back within two weeks. So you have to stay on top of it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Anyone who has a flower bed, you know what I'm talking about, Or a garden, you have to stay on top of protecting the garden, or the culture can get unhealthy. When it's unhealthy, that's when you get to. Especially when it's really unhealthy. If you haven't touched the garden in a year, you have to deconstruct.

[D]

Yeah. It's a project.

[A]

And again, you don't deconstruct the theology of what God's called Victory to do or the youth ministry. You deconstruct the culture of going, hey, we weren't doing things right here. And it wasn't that we were doing things unethical we were just not doing things the right way to produce growth, healthy growth. And so I think it was really good that you said that and talking about, about you're in a season now where it's like the team is in live action reconstructing to say, here's who we are, here's who we're becoming. My son Liam, he's now part of Yalls youth crew discipleship group on Wednesdays. He's been telling me about it and he came home like three weeks ago. He's like, dad, I'm starting to diet. I was like, okay. Which is rare to hear from your 11 year old. But I was, he was like, I'm starting a diet. And I was like, like, what are you dieting for? He's like, I want to get faster. And to get faster I've got to cut out sugar. And so he's like, I'm going to cut out sugar, I'm going to cut out this. And I was like, this is awesome. But I was like, where did you get this from? And he was, he was talking about his soccer coach. So he didn't get it from youth crew, but he got it from his soccer coach. But when you said the word diet when you were talking about, you know, changing some things, a diet is not, not fun, no, but it produces the changes you want to see happen. And so there's some things that you guys have been changing to help produce the growth and the results. And I think someone who's watching out there, what do you need to deconstruct and reconstruct that is not working. That has become toxic. For Ash and I, we went into areas and we began to change some things. We, we begin to call some people out and say, hey, if you're going to work for us at Victory, we need you to be a part of this vision that we're building. And we gave people a chance. Some people didn't take that chance. And they said, we're going to do what we want to do. And we said, okay, God bless you. Here is your exit. And you are welcome to do that at life, church or church on the move or transformation. But if you're going to work at Victory, we need you to do the Victory way. And we weren't being rude. We were inviting people on a journey like, hey, we're building something. We're not going to be a copy of other churches. What we're building is uniquely our calling for victory. And I think you've got people that want to do their own thing. But I think the whole idea of like challenging a system, challenging a culture, taking everybody on a diet, when it comes to whatever it is, hey, we're not going to keep practicing things like this. That's what leads to health and change. And I appreciate you guys saying that.

[D]

Because when I was like, the mindset coming as like a volunteer to actually being on the team is two different mindsets. Like, the mindset I had as a volunteer when I was serving at youth is completely different than the mindset of like being one of the people to help lead it. And you have to also, you actually start looking at a lot more areas and a lot more things in terms of setup, in terms of like, because as a volunteer, it's like, show up, put my tag on, yo, I'm ready to love students. But then it's like, like, as a, like one of the leaders, it's like, I need to check the health of the team or I need to check like, hey, does this work? Does this not work? So it's like different plates.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You're looking at your position different. Josh, how about you?

[B]

Yes, Well, I wanted to. I even have love to ask the question real quick because I think knowing what's healthy is also knowing what's unhealthy. Right. I think about in moments, whenever you said that when your mom took over, when you looked at the church and the leadership and even with Pastor Joseph being here and youth ministry 24 years. Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that you've got indicators of what's healthy and. But what's also what's not healthy. What do you think are some things that, when it comes to not being healthier, indicators of like, wait a second, that's kind of a yellow flag or a red flag they need to jump on.

[A]

That's a great question. I did a series called Red flags. Yeah. In 2018. And I talked. I gave a hundred red flags. In one. Yeah.

[B]

In one. That's powerful Service.

[A]

I had 100 points in one sermon.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Well, I only got through 50 of my points.

[B]

Only. Only 50.

[A]

I was zipping through my points, but each point could have been a sermon. And people were like, dude, can we make this a year long series? Because each one of these red flags needs about 60 minutes to unpack. And so we didn't. We made. It was a one month series in February. I need to bring it back. But I did red flags in dating. I did red flags in marriage when you're already married, but you see a red flag in your spouse. And then I talked about Red flags in leadership. And I titled it the Red Flags in Me. And it was a really introspective sermon. Like, how do you know when you're off?

[C]

Yep.

[A]

How do you know when there's a red flag in you? How do you know? But then seeing it in you helps you to see it in others. When you're, like, not being yourself, carrying around sadness, victim mentality. No one's talking to me. No one's, you know, invited me to lunch. Nobody invited me. Like, that is a red flag in you. What's going on? Why are you. Why are you being Eeyore right now? Pity party. But then that's also red flag. You start seeing in other people where you're like, okay, this person is not their normal self. They seem really down, they seem really sad. They're kind of isolated. Isolation's a red flag. But then I think taking it to a culture and going, red flags in a culture. And I took my mom to lunch today and we were talking about when her and my dad were. When he was alive and they were pastoring victory. And I asked her this question. I said, mom, what happened in this era of victory? And she said, your dad did not like people to challenge his opinion on things. And she said, I would challenge his opinion all the time. And one time she said, your dad looked at me and said, sharon, why do you gotta challenge every single idea that I have? And she said, well, what do you want me to do? And he said, I want you to. Instead of challenging me, I want you to say, hmm, that's an interesting idea. And I was like, what? What? She goes, basically, he didn't want me to disagree with him. He just wanted me to voice my disagreement through a very, you know, candy coated response.

[B]

Like, sweeter approach.

[D]

Yeah, almost like, explain.

[A]

But she said, the reality is, like, the challenging of his ideas actually helped make the ideas better. And I think a red flag for any culture is when you can't challenge an idea and bring other ideas to the table. Now, I think once you challenge that idea.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Privately. And it's decided upon what, Whatever the decision is. The other red flag is when team members leave that room and challenge it publicly and go, well, Joseph decided this, but we all told him he shouldn't do it. And then they're throwing you under the bus. That's a red flag. We had that happening in our first year of pastoring where there were staff members who were like, yeah, well, Paul and Ashley, they stepped in as pastors and they wanted us to do this. But we aren't going to do. And it's like, yeah, now we have division and strife, and anything with two heads is a monster.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so when there's not like a submission to authority, and I don't mean that we create a dictatorship where there's no one that can have other opinions and ideas, but once the idea is decided upon walking out that room and going, okay, we've decided we're canceling camp this year, or we've decided we're going to have three camps this year. Whatever the decision is now, if it's theologically off going against scripture, then I think at that point, you decide, am I supposed to even be in an environment where they're going against scripture? For someone who's watching that, not here, because we are Bible believing.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

But, yeah, you answer that. What? You guys answer his question.

[C]

I think because I've had the opportunity to kind of step in to new cultures, I've also, as a kind of a consultant as well, come in and you really are looking, if you've ever seen the show, is it like Restaurant Impossible or something where he comes in and he, like, watches all their stuff and he's like, hey, this is why you guys are losing money. Hey, let me, let me try your food. Let me look at your menu. There's that observation of where you are. How'd you get here? So I think you ask questions, but I do say, like, everything Pastor Paul just said is like, it's not just if the leaders, like, take each area of ministry, sometimes we'll be like, well, the first impressions team. You're like, well, there's a leader leading that team.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So we have to ask ourselves, are they leading? Like, have we done our job first? Which I love that you were like, self reflective. Hey, what can I do to help them? And is this a will issue or a skill issue? And so a skill issue. I can help bring you to a conference. I can give you a podcast. But a will issue means I'm not willing to change and grow. So that would be like a red flag in that leader of like, wait, we've tried to help you out, told you to read this book, told you this, and it's still not growing. But I also think it's felt there's that, that posture that, do you want to be there? And so once I think your culture is established, then you have to protect that culture. I think that's what Pastor Paul was talking about. But I, I think you look at the areas and you look at, why is that I've always said this with like camp leaders, there's like, be a camp leader. And like, their, their students are way more excited.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, they're like, why is this camp? And kids are like, well, I want to be on the pink team.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You're like, wait, what the difference is the leader?

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Because they're bought in. And so you kind of need to take, you look, an assessment, like where I think, think what time. What happens a lot of times in church is we'll see these areas that are growing and, and we'll be like, oh, that's great. And we focus on some of the areas that aren't. Instead of going, why is that growing? Why is that healthy? Why do they have this many volunteers? Why don't they have turnover? Because, like, if someone constantly has turnover and their volunteers and their staff, that's a problem. But sometimes we'll allow that person to be on staff for 20 years. You're going, wait, have we ever stopped and slowed down and really looked at that? So I think you have to examine and then you look at some of the leaders that aren't growing. The best thing sometimes is I have this leader go meet with that leader.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And help them have shared learnings as well. And so I do think you come in, you evaluate what's growing and why, what's healthy and why. Let's maximize that. What's not growing, what's dysfunctional? How do we minimize that? And what's the dichotomy of leadership? You're doing that the exact same time. You're living in both those spaces. But typically it's things are great when they have great systems and great leaders.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so if you can focus on that and then realize, hey, if I can get this person the system, can that leader be great?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And, and, and the measure of a.

[A]

Great leader, you know, according to scripture, is the heart.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you look at like God overlooked Eliab, the oldest brother in Jesse's family, for the future king of Israel. When God chose the first king of Israel, he chose a man that he thought was going to help lead a nation into its best days yet. Saul's leadership became a red flag and toxic over time because he cared more about what people thought than he cared.

[D]

About what God thought.

[A]

Saul's heart grew distant from God, and therefore he kept the position, but he lost the influence. You know, you think about like the red flags that led up to Saul's loss because someone can stay in a position and not actually have a good heart.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

David didn't have a position, didn't have a title, but his heart was everything God was looking for. David also sinned, slept with Bathsheba, killed Bathsheba's husband. And it's like, man, David had red flags, but he goes down in history as the man after God's own heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it's because he repented. I think it's because he genuinely felt remorse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Over the ugliness of his sin. I think over time, obviously David course corrected, ended his life in obedience to God. But Saul didn't. Saul never did. Course correct. He never did repent of partial obedience.

[C]

And yeah. Yeah, he didn't involve y.

[A]

And I think it affected the nation. The nation of Israel lost ground during Saul's leadership. It's. It's almost like the department decreased.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Under his leadership, while David's department, when he took over, tripled in size. You know, Israel gained more land and territory in David's leadership than any other king. But I think back to, like, how do we make sure that our hearts as leaders. Because Joseph said it, good leaders, good systems produce healthy, growing, you know, organizations. How do we make sure that our heart stays. Stays green and doesn't get into that red flag spot.

[C]

Yeah, I think it's. I was gonna say that. What's the old under armour? We must protect this house. So it's like once culture's established, it's protecting. Yes, I think protecting that and not ignoring. Wait, that's because I don't think. I think David did have a heart. Over time, he. He found himself, you know, drifting, distracted. And so. Yeah. So it's. It's one of those things of. I think that just shows you every.

[A]

Leader, everyone's susceptible to stupidity and that.

[C]

Drift. Drift.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And what I hired you for or that volunteer that you're like, oh, I love their zeal. Like, they have the heart. And then five years later, like, what happened? And it. Something drifted in them as well. So it's like, how do we keep reminding? And how.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And almost having those heart checks and those updates along the way as well. But protecting that.

[B]

I think what is it John Maxwell is.

[C]

He's.

[B]

It's either him or somebody else. Says you're always one step away from stupid.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It would just. So it keeps your head on a swivel, but also it protects you. I think a big thing for young leaders and like me and continue to learn. I think it's buying in more on the process of being developed more than discovered.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think having that heart of I'm always, always, always. If I'm never. If I'm never discovered, but God sees me and he's with me in the walking and development. You're with the Lord.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'd rather be in the shepherding of the Lord than discovered by people, but away from his presence. Now, yes, we want the both hand, but I think it's learning that together. So I think there's again, the little foxes to me that I had to be cautious of are. And I think we all do as pastors and leaders. It's the numbers game, right? Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I have to remind myself numbers are not our identity, but they're identifiers.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And if I just identify right from trends, then cool. I can know things. But what's my identity? It's that Jesus knows my name.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That. Do we know other people's names? So I think when it comes to the health, one thing with our young adults, as we've seen the beautiful trend of. Yes. Numbers growing every single year.

[D]

Right.

[B]

20 to 30 every single year. It's been incredible. The average. But our focus hasn't been how can we get more numbers? The focus for us has been how can we get more people to know Jesus?

[C]

Yes, that's right.

[B]

Because I think the greatest announcement you could make is a testimony of a life. If my life is living more like Jesus, then I will inspire others to live like Jesus. I think, for example, we had a guy named Josh. We had a lot of young adults that got baptized this past weekend, Right? Over a hundred people getting baptized. There's a guy named Josh, and he was. It was like three or four weeks ago, and he's been coming for like a month or two. He was like, man, I just know I gotta get baptized. He's like, I'm really living my life for the Lord. And he got baptized and he's like, man, this is real. Right? And in other words, according to his friends and all else, he was like, but I have to go public for Jesus. Yeah. The testimony of what Jesus has done in my life. The thing about a girl named Caitlin, they were at, what is it, the Tulsa State Fair that is happening right now. Two days ago, they just went down Tulsa State Fair with a couple of their friends. They just held a sign that said, God's here for you. How can we pray with you? And they had moments of prayer right down at the Tulsa State Fair. And I was like, thank you for being the light. I think the greatest.

[A]

And you didn't Even have to initiate that outreach.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

You don't have to. To me, it's like you don't have to organize something. If something organically happens that I'm placing gospel seeds.

[D]

Good.

[B]

We pray for gospel seeds after the weekend. Monday mornings, we pray. Would you. Would you just grow the gospel seeds of what Pastor Paul has planted? Wednesdays, would you. Would you grow the gospel seeds? Thursdays, would you grow the gospel seeds? Because it's not about us getting the credit. It's about God having the greatest crowd in heaven with family. Right. We're a crowd. We're a family. But that he would get all that where we're making heaven populated. And so, yeah, I think it comes from, again, it's the heart work. The heart work is the hardest because it's a man. You always want to agree with yourself, but that's where. Pardon me, that's where accountability comes in to where, again, the heart's deceitful. So, Pastor Paul, tell me, what are also some unhealthy moments under submission. I'm telling you, you want to grow into having great stature, be under submission.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You want to grow in great authority, you got to grow in great honor.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think it's those moments as you teach people to have good character. I'm a big believer in this, is that you will be entrusted with more if you would just grow in trust.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I could just get the trust of God, then no matter if I do a lot or a little, I just know I'm doing the will of the Father. Father.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's not well done, good and popular, or well done, good in feeling, or well done, good and excited, even servant. It's well done, good and faithful servant. And so we're not here for worship nights. We had an incredible worship night last week. Hundreds of people showing up. I reminded them, hey, worship is not about feeling. Worship is a faithfulness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you could not sense the presence of God through feeling, how would you know that you're walking with the Lord? It's actually already told in scripture, is by faithfulness. If you were to walk in obedience, that's the joy of the Lord. So I think those are just healthy things. But again, it's those little things that we know that culture loves to celebrate. And it's not wrong. We celebrate numbers. Numbers are impressive, but the church is meant to do more than just impress. We're meant to impact.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

And so, hey, we're impressed by all these numbers. Come and see why they're coming Here it's because Jesus is changing lives. And I love what here at Victory in Our Heart is that it's not just a moment. It's about stories of victory.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Stories of Jesus. Yes. I can have a moment. I've been to this many services, but I've got a story of how I've walked in faithfulness of God and he's transformed my life. Yeah, right. I've been a giver and I've seen God give me back multitude. I've been a part of serving and I've seen fear, you know, come off of my life and boldness and courage grow in my life. Got more character of who Jesus is in my life because I'm around him more.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so again, I think it's, it's, it's having the right measure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you measure correctly, then you'll walk correctly.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think it's knowing what the measure of success is.

[A]

Love it. You know, something that I feel like strongly and I've told this to a lot, told this to you guys, but I told this to previous guys that were in your roles and positions. Man. I care more about your heart and you as a person than what you do or how big you grow the area that you've been hired to oversee. And I think you said something really good. Good to be entrusted with more. You've got to grow in your trust ability from people that are in charge of leading you. And I think that's something that, like, you guys do really well, is continuing to build trust with me and with Ashley and with, you know, the team here of different pastors and leaders. You can't be over something until you come under something.

[B]

Right. So good.

[A]

And I think coming under makes you even more stronger than you realize. Ashley said this yesterday in our pastors and leaders meeting meeting. She said when you talk to people, tell them my pastors, Paul and Ashley, and she said that's going to help you more than it's going to help us.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

She's like, we don't need that shout out. But it makes people trust you more when they hear that you actually see your pastor as your pastor.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you mentioned that and I thought it was a really good word on the whole idea. I oftentimes will mention my pastor, you know, when I talk about Larry Stock still or my parents, because they still are. Even though my dad's in heaven, they still are such a covering for me. And you know, my mom is still such a, like a pioneer in a general of faith and I think that not only endears the audience of people to you, but that builds this trust of, like, this guy's not a lone ranger.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Or like a cavalier person just trying to do it all on his own.

[D]

Like.

[A]

Like he has. He has a submission.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That produces. And I think that is coming back to. It's the opposite of a red flag in your. Your own culture. If you have a good culture in your heart, you'll produce a good culture in your department.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Your church, in your area. And I think that's. That's what we're seeing in Yalls areas. Like, Yalls hearts are pure. You're producing a pure culture in your area, and it's leading to growth. More leaders, more people excited. And I think now the longevity piece is where it comes in. How long can we keep doing this and not just be like a short season of health, but let's do this for the long haul and let's build systems that produce a long haul, growing, healthy ministry here. I know we're getting to the very end. I wanted to do one last thing. Jake, will you hand me that thing over there on the shelf? And for those of you that are listening, still watching right now, thanks for staying tuned for this whole podcast. The thing that says, your father is well pleased with you. Jake is running the cameras back here, him and Spencer and Cody. But this is something that sits in my desk right here. I've had this, actually since the year after my dad passed. I wasn't the pastor. I was the young adults pastor, and I was in charge of youth ministry. I wasn't the youth pastor, but I worked with our youth pastor. And someone gave me this. I preached a Saturday night service, and I talked about how one of the last things my dad said to me was that he was pleased with how I was doing things with our. Our young adults ministry. And they took this, obviously, from the scripture in, you know, the gospels, where God literally speaks over his son. This is my son, whom I love, in whom I am well pleased. And I remember getting this, and it meant a lot to me. I cried. But I. I put it there before I was ever a senior pastor. I put it there when I was just working in a role that I knew, honestly, I wanted to do the rest of my life. I wanted to do young adults ministry. And we went through seasons where we would have 900 young adults on a Tuesday night, and then seasons where we would dip down to 400 or 500. And I had to remind myself, God is pleased with me.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Whether we have 900, 400 or 40.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Or four.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On weeks where I walked through very difficult, painful things over the last 15 years since my dad passed. Weeks where I wasn't sure if I would get the chance to preach again or get up on stage again. I had to remind myself my identity is not in what I do or how many people show up or how many people are call Victory home or how many people hate on our church or love our church or what Google reviews say. My identity is that my father in heaven is well pleased. Not with my performance, but with the fact that I'm his son. Because God said this over Jesus before he preached, before he pastored, before he had any disciples, any church. He said this just as a son. And I have to remind myself, I think this is healthy for all of us. Our value and our worth and our identity does not change based on how big the youth group gets, how many volunteers are serving. I'm. I was proud of you before by a. Took off, before you even took over by. I've been proud of you since I met you. And you don't need to hear that because, you know, we're. We're basically the same age. But you've. You've impressed so many people over the years with what you've done. But you're impressive beyond what you've done. You're impressive just because you're Joseph and Jordan. I've been proud of you since the day you came to Victory and got saved during death to maybe before you ever did anything for this church. And I think just knowing that, like, knowing man. Our Father in heaven.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Is proud of us.

[B]

So good.

[A]

Now we're going to work hard. We're going to do our best. We're going to build healthy. But even on those weeks where the numbers are low or things aren't as great as we thought they'd be, or there's sermons that I preach where I'm like, that was a 4 out of 10. If that. It was like a 3 out of 10. But God is still pleased.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Just with the fact that I'm his son.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So thank you guys for listening. Watching. We're gonna have these guys back on. We'll do another podcast episode. We'll talk about just continuing to reach the next generation. All things youth, young adults ministry. Stay tuned right here. God bless you. We love you.

[D]

Later.