Laura Diane Kusman (3:49)

podpod hi, I'm Laura Diane Kesman, director

William Howell (3:53)

of Cycle, and this is your boy, William Howell, co director of the film Cycle. And we are here live on the We Talk Back podcast. And we are talking Cycle.

AJ Holiday (4:03)

Welcome to We Talk Back podcast, a production of iHeartRadio and the Black Effect Network.

Tam Bam (4:12)

We're just two unapologetically black women with an opinion who talk back.

AJ Holiday (4:19)

What's up, y'?

William Howell (4:20)

All?

AJ Holiday (4:20)

It's your girl, A.J. holiday. What's up, Tam Bam, y'?

Nurture Life Advertiser (4:24)

All.

Tam Bam (4:24)

It's Tam Bam. I love y'.

Laura Diane Kusman (4:26)

All.

Tam Bam (4:26)

I miss y'. All. Thank y' all for coming back again another week.

Laura Diane Kusman (4:29)

I'm so happy.

Tam Bam (4:31)

I'm proud. You said I'm loud or I'm proud.

AJ Holiday (4:34)

No, I said you have you so happy.

Tam Bam (4:37)

I am.

Laura Diane Kusman (4:38)

I love you.

Tam Bam (4:40)

What was your weekend, girl?

AJ Holiday (4:44)

Nothing. It was like, nothing. I didn't do much this weekend. For real, y'.

State Farm Advertiser (4:48)

All.

AJ Holiday (4:48)

I literally have been trying to save because I've been looking at my. My bank statements and I'm just spending too much money. And it's usually just a Saturday and Sunday, so I've been trying to stay my ass in the fucking house and not shop sales on the weekend.

Tam Bam (5:05)

Yeah, we going to Costco every week.

AJ Holiday (5:11)

I did go to the gym this weekend. I did look for some furniture this weekend. That's about it. Look, still Trying to spend money, but not, like, on small trinkets. Like, small. Because those things add up. You buy a bunch of little, and you don't spend a thousand dollars.

Tam Bam (5:26)

Right. Real quick. Mm.

AJ Holiday (5:29)

So that's about it. I. I don't do much this weekend and just work, you know, work on some stuff.

Tam Bam (5:35)

So my weekend, what did I do? So I posted a steak on my story, and Charlemagne was like, where this steak from? And I told him where it was from. He was like, you in Columbia? I was like, yeah. He invited me to the. The USC Basketball Conference championship game with him and his wife. Yes. So I went to the game with them. We had a good time. And I was hoping it was a suite, but it was floor seats, so I had to hold my stomach in the whole time. I. I think I must have breathed two times while I was there,

AJ Holiday (6:08)

because

Tam Bam (6:08)

we was right on the floor. It was like, no chairs in front of me, and I got a hold in my stomach, and I had on, like, a little crop jacket. I was like, oh, my God, I can't breathe. But I had a good time. Yeah. I did not want to be on the Jumbo Tron with my gut,

AJ Holiday (6:29)

man.

Laura Diane Kusman (6:30)

Just a girl.

Tam Bam (6:32)

Just a girl.

AJ Holiday (6:33)

Like, where's the sweet?

Tam Bam (6:36)

But anyway, it was fun. We had a good time. Shout out to Jess and Charlotte for that. Showing me that love. And then I flew to Costa Rica the next day to get dental work done. And so I'm here now. I'm getting a crown, I need two fillings, and I'm getting a wisdom tooth pulled out. So they started the work already. So they already. I got a post in my tooth, and they, like, shaved it down a little bit to put the crown on. And that's tomorrow. Everything else is tomorrow. And then I'm flying right back. So that was my week. I'm here in Costa Rica at this dental resort, and it's pretty dope, y'. All. So if you are someone who needs some work done and you don't want to spend American prices. And when I get back next week, I'll tell y' all where it is, where to go, all the things. But right now, while I'm still doing it, I want to make sure that I love it before I recommend it to you all. So, yeah, that's what I got going on.

AJ Holiday (7:31)

And I want to know, too, because I want to go get me some good, cheap dental work done. Not cheap as in quality, inexpensive. Okay. In comparison to US Prices, because I still. I think we need to go to Turkey so we can get like a nice little workup done and things fixed. Yes,

Tam Bam (7:51)

I'm with that.

AJ Holiday (7:51)

I've been, I've been looking into like peptides recently. Not those epics, right? Because there's a lot of like, your body stops producing, like the natural peptides the older you get. So a lot of these clinics now, these, I guess, like, I don't know, cosmetic clinics, you want to call them that, like, you know, places go for like a little Botox a little bit. But yeah, they. I've been doing some research. That's another thing I did this weekend, researching peptides because I want to do something.

Tam Bam (8:19)

Well, once you. Let's, let's bring it all to the table when we get our information together. Let's bring the peptides and the dinner clinic for our girlies and guys.

AJ Holiday (8:30)

Yes.

Laura Diane Kusman (8:30)

All right, y'.

AJ Holiday (8:31)

All. So there are no sins this week, okay? We have two amazing guests on We Talk Back this week. We have William Howell and Laura Diane Kasman. Okay? They are the producers of the film Cycle and that's Cycle Cycle. It is a investigative documentary about the murder of a 18 year old on Juneteenth. Okay. In 2019 in racing Wisconsin. So they did this beautiful film. I won't. I mean, it's real life. Okay, so we want to delve into that this week.

Tam Bam (9:17)

Y' all. Stay tuned.

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AJ Holiday (13:53)

All right, y', all, thank you for joining us for a new episode of We TALK Back. Today we're talking about the film Cycle. It's a powerful investigative documentary that explores a 2019 killing of 18 year old Tyrese west in Racine, Wisconsin. So this case was largely unfolded without any national attention or accountability from the officer involved. And oftentimes there's a huge difference between the official narratives and the actual lived experiences of the people involved. This conversation is about art, it's about justice, it's about the media, and it's about the cycle, the cycle of violence, the cycle of the headlines, the cycle of outrage and the cycle of forgetting. So we're talking about responsibility of storytelling with the producers of Cycle y'.

Laura Diane Kusman (14:49)

All.

Tam Bam (14:49)

Today.

AJ Holiday (14:50)

Joining us on WE TALK Back, we have Laura, Diane Kisman and William Howell, the producers of Psycho. Thank y' all for joining. We TALK back.

Tam Bam (15:03)

Thank you so much for joining us, you guys, for real.

William Howell (15:05)

Thank you for having us.

AJ Holiday (15:06)

All right, y', all, so let's get into it. So the question becomes, what does it mean to turn real life tragedy into film? Because is it awareness, is it activism, is it accountability? Or is it another, just another way for more trauma to be consumed?

William Howell (15:28)

To me, I mean, when we started this, and that's the exact reason why I felt like it wasn't for me to try to complete this film because us as black people, we are just, we are too embedded in our own anger. And I knew that that's all that I was going to be able to deliver to my people, was my anger. Like I couldn't see through a 6, 7 year process to making this kind of powerful documentary. I had no idea what it took to even make a film. And so at the time, I just, I understood the power in the visual because I was a local videographer and my Thing was to, like, I wanted to inspire all of these artists, and I wanted to give them visuals and videos that actually made them look like stars. And so, yes, I understood just the power and the visual and being able to tell the story. And when you're talking about, you have the news cycle running, this story 247 of him having a gun and they're tearing down his character, it was very important for us to tell it from our side. And so I understood it from that small level. But to have somebody like Laura to come in and to be blessed, to be able to actually learn what it took to make a film, film this powerful, to have to, you know, do all of the work that it takes to be able to get this information and uncover it, like, those are things that I would have never been able to do as a black man here in Wisconsin, of all places. And I. It was, like, just a necessity. I needed her, and for her to, you know, to appear in my life, it was everything to this film.

Tam Bam (16:59)

So how. Saying that, how did she appear? Like, how did y' all meet?

William Howell (17:03)

Well, it was crazy because, like, I'm literally. I'm just online going crazy, you know, over what happened. And the. The crazy part is that, like, it was starting to. To me, it was viral, right? Because I live in this small town, and it's like you get 3,4000 people on one status, and you like, okay, the world know what's going on here, and nobody in Milwaukee even knew, you know what I mean? So it was like, it was just this instant where I was running this website for, like I said, for all of the local rappers. And my business partner, Jesse Booker, who is also. He's a white man, you know, But Booker is very, very tied to the inner city community. And, like, you know, everybody really knows him. And so our relationship was able to flourish through hip hop. And the word actually came through Jesse. Like, we have a mutual friend in Jesse, and she. She reached out to Jesse and let him know, like, hey, my friend is a producer, and she's. She didn't know that this happened. But, like, we literally rolled past the crime scene that night as she was taking me home, and we was wondering what had happened. And so after all this time, she found me on the Internet and she was seeing what was going on. And so she connected us because she just really felt like Laura was the one to be able to, you know, kind of give me some pointers to help me along the way here.

Tam Bam (18:18)

Laura, what connected you? I'm sorry? Laura, what connected you to this project.

Laura Diane Kusman (18:25)

Yeah. So as Will mentioned, the mutual friend that, like, thought to introduce us is my good friend Amanda Thaxton, who eventually became a producer on the project as well. And she had been familiar with Will. She's friends with Jesse Booker, who was Will's business partner. And so she facilitated the introduction. And it started as like, like, girl, you won't believe what actually happened the night that you went. Because I was out with her in Racine the night that Tyrese was killed. I. I'm from Racine. I was born and raised in Racine, and I rarely go there to, like, hang out anymore, but her and I just happened to be at a bar like, maybe a mile or so away. Were y' all celebrating Juneteenth? We. So it was. It was the night before, it's pretty sure, like Oasis on the T. So I wouldn't consider that a Juneteenth celebration. But the night before, her and I were. We left the bar at like 1:30, which was when we later found out that this all went down. And all we knew at the time is that we were rerouted because the police perimeter was very large and there was. It was very silent. Like, it was. It was eerie. And I just remember her and I just getting this kind of like, chill of like, what the fuck is going on right now? It just. It was a lot of police presence, and everyone was. Was eerily silent. And in, like Will said, I live in Milwaukee, 30 minutes north of Racine, and the news didn't even reach me what had happened that night. And so months later, after Will and I connected, you know, it started with, you know, you know, you remember that night. This is what happened. And you need to talk to Will because I feel like you could, you know, maybe point him in the right direction of how to start a film documenting this. This crazy story that no one's really talking about right now. And so he and I met at a coffee shop in November of 2019. This is months after Tyrese was killed. And what turned into a three hour conversation where we left pretty determined to tell this story together. And within a few weeks, we filmed our first interviews.

AJ Holiday (21:00)

Have you ever worked. Can y' all not hear me when I'm trying to. Oh, sorry. Have.

Tam Bam (21:05)

Go ahead.

AJ Holiday (21:05)

Can we go back? Have you ever produced a film like this before, Laura?

Laura Diane Kusman (21:13)

Not like Cycle. A Cycle is by far the largest undertaking and the. The hardest thing that I've ever done in my life. Just from a filmmaking standpoint. You know, we investigated the case for over two years. My background is in journalism. I've been in the filmmaking journalism space for, like, 17 years. And I had done a film before that actually Will had seen prior to talking with me, and I. Which is, like, interesting, because, like, the film, you know, didn't get a ton of exposure, but it was about the segregation and the experience of segregation in Milwaukee, which being that Milwaukee is continues to be one of the highest. Has the highest rates of segregation in the whole country. And Will saw that film and unbeknownst to me at the time, was like, yes, you are the one that needs to tell this story.

William Howell (22:14)

Yeah. So even though she didn't make a film that was like, per se, like, cycle watching the. It was called Invisible Lines. And like, she said, it's purely about the segregation in Milwaukee, and Milwaukee is the number one segregated city in America. And just from the beginning of it, just the professionalism and the care and what went into what you were witnessing. Like, I'm very spiritual. Like, God, even during that whole time of me fighting for Tyrese, like, I wasn't no type of activist or nothing like that. I had never did anything like that in my life. But I knew I could feel when God was speaking to me. And it was the same watching this film. Like, and by coming from somebody like Jesse, of course, I was already very open. But, like, even when I prayed to God to, like, please send me somebody in my life that could teach me filmmaking, just being honest, I never pictured a white woman, you know? And so when I got this documentary, and I'm just watching, and I'm just like. And all of you dealing with all of these emotions that are going through you, and in my mind, I was like, that's God. I can feel it. And this is spiritual. And it was literally some of the best work I had ever seen. And from the moment that we connected, I always let her know that, like, you are literally, like, spiritual with what you do here with this camera and this editing. Just your heart in a way that you. Yes, yes. Like it. I could really feel, like, the emotion that she put into film. And that's why I wanted her leadership on this.

AJ Holiday (23:42)

So what was the most.

Tam Bam (23:45)

Remember, back and forth. Just said that. Back and forth. Was there ever any hesitation on either your behalfs with documenting something so extremely heavy?

William Howell (24:01)

I mean, right away? No. Like, you know, as far as me, no, I never even hesitated. I never thought about it. And it's so funny because, like, with Laura, same. I don't think she ever hesitated, but it was a moment where I was talking to her in the coffee shop. And I'm, like, literally expected to have, like, a 10, 15 minute conversation with her, but once I seen that she was open to it, I'm like. In my head, I'm like, is she actually is locked in with me as this conversation? As I'm thinking. So it's a moment where I reached across the table. Like, I'm reaching for her hand. I want to see her reaction to a black man reaching. And she literally just looked at me as if, like, what is wrong with this nigga? I'm just like, she is the person. Like, she was locked all the way the fuck in. And I was like. So I don't think from that point on, I didn't think that she would hesitate at all either way.

Laura Diane Kusman (24:55)

Yeah. So I. I would attribute a lot of. I was just gonna say I. I attribute a lot of that to there being this sort of, like, unspoken. If you, you know, God, the universe. I mean, like, this or real recognized, real calling. Yes. Yeah. And. And it was. And so there was no hesitation. And then, you know, shortly after, we, like, started doing this and did our first interviews. Covid happened a month later. And then shortly after that, Breonna Taylor was killed. And shortly after that, Ahmaud Arbery. And then after that, George Floyd. And while the world is, you know, captive to what was happening, and while we were in the seed stage of this film, and again, another thing that, you know, Will and I did without hesitation is we jumped into my Honda Civic and drove to Minneapolis from Milwaukee. And. And we're there in Minneapolis the day after George Floyd was killed and filmed for at least three to four days, watching everything unfold around us. And being there in the epicenter of that moment, before the world even knew or saw the video, was so profound that, like, any ounce of hesitation that even would have existed was completely eliminated. And at that point, we were just, like. We were in. And knew that we were going to do whatever it took to tell this story.

AJ Holiday (26:21)

So I'm from Charleston, South Carolina. Y' all know Walter Scott was murdered by the police here in 2015. And there was a guy who filmed the murder, and he waited to see what the police was going to report before he released a video to the family. He literally just sat back with this evidence and waited. And when the, you know, the police department essentially lied about how Walter Scott was murdered, he then, you know, turned the footage over to the family. So I want to know, like, at what moment, William, did you know that this story needed to be told about Tyrese West?

William Howell (27:00)

I can truly say the moment that I knew is the moment that I stood over Tyrese's casket. Like, I. You know, I grew up in the hood, and I done did a lot of wild things myself. So I know a lot of killers. You know, I know how they roll. I know how they move. And I've stood over the casket of a few of them, and you don't really feel too much. And as I stood over the casket of Tyrese, which this was the first funeral that I had ever even accepted to film, like, it was just God speaking to me. Like, you could literally feel the innocence on this boy. He's just this small kid in this casket with these two execution style wounds in his head. And it was literally just breaking me on the inside to just think that I could let somebody come into my neighborhood and get away with this.

Tam Bam (27:49)

For our listeners who are hearing this for the very first time, can you walk us through what happened the day Tyrese was killed?

William Howell (27:57)

Well, Lord, did you want to kind of go through the timeline?

Laura Diane Kusman (28:01)

Sure. So. Well, actually, why don't you set it up that it was Racine's Juneteenth?

William Howell (28:07)

Well, yeah, well, because. And as a matter of fact, because as I think back, it's so crazy because like, we spoke about yesterday, like, even though it was months later when I received the video, it's wild to see a video that 30 minutes before Tyrese was even killed, there was another kid that was being hunted and chased by the police. Thank God that he had the wherewithal to yell his name out and to yell that the police are trying to kill me and somebody else went live. And that's the only reason why we know that. And we were able to see that footage. And so, yeah, to me, it feels like something was leading up to that. And so you have Tyrese on this bike. And let's be clear that Tyrese is a kid that's from the north side and Racine, when you're from the north side, being on the south side is probably the scariest thing for you. Not the police. He's on the other side of town where the other kids don't like him. He's not accepted there. And so he's already going to be very, very, you know, like, high strung and whatnot. And you have this kid on this bike, and it's this very, very dark area and very isolated from the rest of the city. And even though it still feels like racing, you're actually, like, journeying through Kenosha, Mount Pleasant, all of it kind of, like, you know, intersects in that area. And so as Tyrese is coming back, the police officer sees him. The police officer hits his lights, and he attempts to pull Tyrese over, which Tyrese runs away from him. And then the sequence of everything that unfolded happens.

Tam Bam (29:41)

Yeah.

Laura Diane Kusman (29:42)

Yeah. So Tyrese was on his bike. He was heading back home after attempting to visit his girlfriend who lived in Kenosha. And we can only assume that at one point, he turned back. It's like an hour and a half trek from Racine to Kenosha on a bike. And there's one path that he would go, which Will mentioned includes going through a part of town where he's just trying to, like, remain invisible. Like, he just doesn't want to be noticed. And he's by himself, and he's on the sidewalk, and this officer just happens to spot him from quite a distance away. It is very dark. It's not a residential area. It's a, like, industrial area that's very dimly lit. And so, I mean, one thing that will always be a mystery is how, from that distance away, he was able to identify that this kid on a bike didn't have a headlight on it. But that is what he claims was his reason for clicking on his lights and attempting to stop him. And after very little attempt to get him to pull over, he starts, like, more aggressively chasing Tyrese. As he's trying to pedal faster, Tyrese pulls to the right onto the first street that he sees. The officer tries to cut him off with his SUV and immediately gets out of the car and starts chasing him. Tyrese starts running. And everything that we know after that point is from the officer's point of view. And so without the lack or with the lack of evidence, there were no witnesses. The officer did not have a partner in his car. He had a canine, not a partner. So he was patrolling alone that night. He had a dispatch radio that had to be manually pushed, which meant that what is recorded on his end is only when he's pushing the button. So not everything was recorded. There was no surveillance footage, no witnesses. And so everything is from his perspective. And so all we know is that within 90 seconds of trying to pull this kid over, based on the dispatch audio that we have, he was shot twice in the head.

Tam Bam (31:56)

And was this a motorbike, or was this a child on a pedal bike?

Laura Diane Kusman (32:01)

This was a child on a pedal bike.

AJ Holiday (32:09)

So I did watch the. The film. We. We made sure we watched the film so we could have, you know, all the details surrounding the murder of Tyrese and one part you mentioned, the dog. The officer said that this was in a situation where the dog would have need to be involved. So I'm trying to figure out at what point did the gun need to be involved in. And I think he attempted, supposedly, to tase Tyrese, and the Taser wasn't working or he didn't aim properly or whatever it was. And there was supposedly also a weapon found on the scene. Correct?

Laura Diane Kusman (32:48)

Yeah, so there was a. Correct. So there was a weapon recovered from the scene. It was allegedly Tyrese's, based, of course, on what the officer said. But as you see in the film, and we try to break down those series of events, you know, through a lot of different layers so you can understand the context of what's happening in that moment and to also be clear about the version of events that you're receiving and how there is so much gray area surrounding, you know, what is being said. And, you know, one key thing to highlight is that that officer Eric Gizy was on the crime scene for two whole minutes by himself before the first responding officer arrived. So after he kills him, he has two minutes on that scene by himself. And what he's doing in those two minutes is. That's only God knows.

AJ Holiday (33:57)

So how did you guys. How do you balance, like, the storytelling with the facts? Right, because you can't just come out and say that the police planted this. This weapon on the scene. Right. But I kind of think that the film, it does something where, you know, it kind of gives you more information than you would actually receive in a courtroom, you know, so how did you guys have to consult legal experts and. And stuff like that to make this film?

William Howell (34:31)

Yes. I mean, and actually, like, when we first started, Laura had connected us with the. What is that? The journalism people over Wisconsin. Like, we. We really made sure that we were, you know, crossing every T&.in every eye, because, like, you have to have the facts. In this case, we didn't want to just. I said if I wanted to just give an account of how I felt, then, you know, I could have just created this angry film. But having somebody like Laura who truly understood journalism, who was teaching me that. No, even though will you feel this way, and I understand that you feel strongly that Tyrese didn't have this gun. We still had to place the gun in basically in Tyrese's possession to. To prove that it wasn't there. We couldn't just say that. That it wasn't. When. You know what I mean, the facts

AJ Holiday (35:19)

in the case, when it was the official story.

William Howell (35:22)

Right. And so, like, yes, having her to even understand that level of investigation and to be able to go in there and to stick by it, I mean, like, that was everything for me. And being able to even peel back that layer.

Laura Diane Kusman (35:38)

Yeah. And in the beginning, so when Tyreese was killed, it took the city of Racine and the village of Mount Pleasant, who intersect, by the way. So it was a Mount Pleasant officer who killed Tyreese. And it was investigated by the city of Racine, which is in the backyard of Mount Pleasant. And it took racing 96 days for the district attorney to issue a charging decision against the officer, which is an extraordinarily long time when you stack it against any other case like this. So it took 96 days for them to ultimately decide to not charge the officer with anything, which at this point, everyone was expecting. Expecting. Two months after that, Monique West, Tyrese's mom, filed a federal civil suit in December of 2019 with the help of prosecutors based in Chicago who have a firm where they take on cases like this. And so we, because of our relationship with Monique through this process, we worked pretty closely at the time with the prosecutors who were prosecuting the civil federal suit against the officer. And it was through that that we got access to records that we were being denied through FOIA requests that were not being fulfilled. It was because of their power of subpoena that we were able to get certain records much more efficiently and at least fulfilled to some degree, because largely we were getting silence from both Mount Pleasant and Racine throughout the investigation. And. And that is the only reason that we were able to get the video deposition of the officer testifying under oath, which is typically not recorded and is typically not available for public viewing. So one really unique thing about Cycle is that it offers the audience this, behind closed doors look into what these officer depositions are typically like. And the only reason that that footage exists is because we asked the prosecutors to hire a court videographer to do that for us. And so. And because we knew going into it that none of. And we asked, of course, every interview request was denied by every officer on the scene, the district attorney, the police chief. And we obviously knew we were not going to get Eric Gizy ourselves to talk about what happened. And so what was, you know, even better than we could have even imagined was getting a three hour deposition of him under oath, telling his. His version of events.

Tam Bam (38:26)

Now, with including that in the documentary. Did y' all feel any pushback or tension from police department or anybody in your community, communities for putting that into the documentary.

William Howell (38:38)

To me, I really. I truly believe that it's been the most vital part for us and. And just breaking open that case. And, like, I think people truly see the guilt on his face and you hear the guilt within his voice. I love the way that the prosecutor was able to lure him in to the conversation. And so, to me, no, I think that it's the perfect ending. It is perfect. The way Laura wanted to kind of, like, use it, it was just. It was so perfect to me. And I think it was her patience and her persistence is the only reason why this film wasn't already, you know, on the festival circuit or on some streaming platform, like, which is what I was honestly pushing for at the time. Like, because you have these years going past, and I'm thinking, like, nobody's gonna care anymore. But I just can't even imagine if. To have this film out there without that deposition video, without that evidence of him incriminating his own self.

Tam Bam (39:36)

Yeah.

AJ Holiday (39:37)

I think, Tim, you were basically saying, like, asking if there was any retaliation from the police.

William Howell (39:44)

Right.

Tam Bam (39:44)

Was. Was there any retaliation or any pushback from anybody in your communities, especially you, Laura, being a white woman, there are. Are there anybody that felt like they were not an ally to what you were creating based on culture and race?

Laura Diane Kusman (39:59)

I would say that everyone who was receiving the repeated freedom of information requests from me and my team at the time were not allies. No, no. Racine in Mount Pleasant was incredibly resistant to giving us any information. The police, particularly the Mount Pleasant Police Department, found very interesting ways of letting us know that they were clocking us at various points in the investigation. You know, early on, you know, shortly after we released the first trailer for Cycle at. On the one year anniversary of Tyrese's death in 2020, just a couple weeks after George Floyd had been killed. You know, Racine was on high alert at that time. You know, people were back in the street, you know, yelling Tyrese's name because of the uprising that was going on in that moment in the summer of 2020. And one thing that, you know, does get revealed in the film, which is a particular point of tension on Will's end, is his. And I'll let him tell this part of the story, but his personal connection to the police chief and the tension that that caused. And so, yes, at every point, and I don't even want to say it was, you know, like, it was a. It was a systemic tension. Yes, there was racial tension, but it was so much deeper than that, given the depth and the history of Corruption in racing county.

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Tam Bam (46:01)

Oh, well, I wanted to ask you, what does Thanksgiving look like at your house right now? Because I know that shit probably kind of wild right now.

William Howell (46:10)

Well, you know, when you black, you know how it is. Like, you know, you got your mama side of the family, then you got your daddy. And so by my father not ever really being present in my life, and I will say, like, he was a great man. He wasn't a great father, but he was a very loving man. And so my mother, like, never said one bad word about my father. To this day, I can't even really talk bad about this man, right? But we never really had a relationship. And so of course, you can imagine my uncle, the chief of police, as his brother. Our relationship was pretty much the same. But when you talking about my mother, also you talking about a career criminal. So I still remember when coming home from A banquet as a kid, and my house is being raided. You know what I mean? And my mother's going to jail. And this is the beginning of, like, this is the story of my childhood. And my uncle has never made himself present to say, hey, look, you know, you shouldn't hate police because of this. I never really had an understanding for, like, what was happening, and he would never be present. So as I grew, I think that there was an automatic kind of disdain between us. And so for me, I don't really feel like there was, like, this amounted pressure coming against me because I was. Felt like I was mounting the pressure against them. I didn't care. It was me understanding that we have the same last name. This is the only leverage that I have to use to get their attention and to make everybody pay attention. And so that's what I'm gonna do. Like, if my life hangs in the balance, like, I have a son here, like, I would rather die for fighting and make this story even bigger because of that than to just sit back and do nothing.

Tam Bam (47:52)

Let me ask you this. What? Go ahead. It's your turn.

AJ Holiday (47:57)

Because I know it's a delay between a connection, too. So we just never know. So what I was going to ask, Laura, having been involved with this film, did it change how you see law enforcement as a white woman in America.

William Howell (48:13)

Good question.

AJ Holiday (48:14)

Or whatever you identify as. Because I don't identify as black. So what? You know, Laura. Sorry. Assuming. Right. So, yeah. Did it change how you being this closely involved in this situation, like, did it change how you saw law enforcement? Because from our perspective, a lot of people use it as an extension of their fears or their insecurities about other groups of people.

Laura Diane Kusman (48:39)

To be honest, it didn't change my view of law enforcement because I had been paying attention for, you know, enough time leading up to that, that this was very in line with what I was expecting. You know, the fact that it had happened before in Racine a year prior to Tyrese. And it's part of what honestly made me a little bit crazy when, you know, during COVID and this, like, uprising was happening. And it's like, all of these, you know, so many of my, like, white friends were kind of, like, having these kind of, like, faux awakenings on social media that this is an issue. And part of what was driving me to do this film was to prove that, like, this is not a new issue. The fact that, you know, we're not talking about Trayvon Martin any anymore or Walter Scott or, you know, like, the countless names that have led to Tyrese and all the names that we have never heard before is. Was really the fuel for me to show, like, my family members that, like, no, this. This is not just an issue right now, but it has been this ever since our country was founded. You know, like, this is not a new thing. And I'm not going to pretend like I, you know, was walking into it with all of the historical context that I now have because of the intentional research done on this film, but at the time, it more reinforced the belief I had at the time about law enforcement rather than changed my opinion on it.

AJ Holiday (50:24)

Absolutely.

Tam Bam (50:26)

Now, I just wanted to clarify, because AJ Said that she does not identify as black, and I don't want y' all to think that she thinks she's white. She's actually very translucent and see through and like a unicorn. That's correct, right?

AJ Holiday (50:38)

I'm not see through. Okay? Black is actually the absence of color. So that's why I'm not black. Okay? I am an indigenous American. That's what I am. And I know what I am.

Tam Bam (50:51)

Oh, okay. See, I got it wrong, too. The whole time, I thought she was translucent, so not trans. I just wanted to talk about Tyrese a little bit. I know, you know, he was on the way to see a girl, and that's just, like, heart wrenching because he's just a little young guy liking a girl, you know? So I just wanted to give our listeners, like, I wanted to, you know, humanize this young black boy. Like, tell us a little bit about who he was, like, what was his personality? What do you know about him that you could share with us, you know?

William Howell (51:24)

Well, what's crazy for me is that, like, I never had the opportunity to get to meet Tyrese or no Tyrese. But his father and I were very close friends at that age, and I could see everything in him. Like, literally, like, when he came up my timeline, it was just his father. Like, that is how much they look alike. And so, like, yeah, I never got to experience Tyrese, but right away from, like, when. When people found out who it was, they got killed. And when I seen the response of the youth and the way the kids talked about him and even, like, some of the videos that we started to get from Monique and, like, the stories that she would share to me, like, I. It made me tell Lord. The one thing that I told Laura was that I need a moment in this documentary where it feels like Tyrese comes off the screen. Like, I need him to live again where it feels like he is there to tell his own story. And I truly feel like she gave us that moment in this film where it feels as if, like, Tyrese is still alive, but unfortunately, I don't really know much about him personally.

AJ Holiday (52:29)

How was Tyrese portrayed in early media coverage?

Laura Diane Kusman (52:36)

In early media coverage, he was portrayed the way that you would expect. You know, it's. It's the police getting ahead of the narrative, putting out a press release immediately saying that this man had a weapon, even though he was an 18 year old kid on a bike. And that was not proven at that point or at any point. And in the media, of course, just is racing for who can push the story out the fastest. And so they're not as concerned about fact checking or, you know, looking at this press release issued by the offending police department with a critical eye. And so they're literally regurgitating what the police are telling them. And. And that was a really important moment in the film for us to highlight, particularly in these smaller communities where. Where this happens with such regularity that doesn't get national attention. You know, this isn't LA or New York or Atlanta. You know, this is. This is Racine, Wisconsin. And, and the ability for the police and the local media to control how everyone views this thing with, you know, instantly is very powerful. And so part of the goal of the film was to strip that back and to help people understand, like, how these headlines are formed and shaped in the first place. And so, of course, they're grasping at straws, trying to pull out past discretions that he made while he was at that point. He's 18. When he's 15, 16. Seen, you know, these, like, petty, petty crimes are being reported on, in the news while this officer who is decorated for his abuse of power is not even in the conversation in. In that way.

AJ Holiday (54:34)

Y' all see what's happening.

Laura Diane Kusman (54:36)

Wait, did they fall?

AJ Holiday (54:38)

I have a cat who climbs my plants.

William Howell (54:45)

I felt like I don't know what's happening right there.

Tam Bam (54:50)

Sorry, Laura, go ahead. No, it's okay.

Laura Diane Kusman (54:52)

It's okay. You were really trying to be discreet about it.

Tam Bam (55:01)

Sorry, y'.

AJ Holiday (55:01)

All.

Laura Diane Kusman (55:02)

No, it's okay. No, but. But yeah, so it's. It's as you would expect. And. And one thing that, again, we share in the film is, is how this, the official narrative of what happened with Tyrese that night was shaped by the district attorney. And the one officer, you know who killed him is also the only officer on the scene who's able to tell you from his point of view what happened. You know, what gets Thrown into the mix of this narrative is something that had happened earlier that day where Tyrese and some friends were, you know, got pulled over for being in a stolen car. We see the friend of Tyrese's in the film tell you the context of what had happened that day and how Tyrese was the one telling him, like, bro, this is not a good idea. And he's like, well, you're not going to walk, are you? And so Tyrese reluctantly gets in this car that's later reported stolen, and later that detail, which the officer who killed him had no idea that that had happened in a separate county earlier that day, but yet that is being used to try to defame Tyrese's. Exactly. And in Tyrese's mentor in the film has a really great line where, you know, why is it that as soon as a young black kid gets killed by the police, you try to find a reason of why he's dead? Like, that's so fucked up. And that is exactly what happened in this case.

Tam Bam (56:33)

Can I ask y', all, what does breaking the cycle mean to you both personally?

William Howell (56:38)

I mean, after going through this entire process? Like, it's. It's so much bigger than what. What's on the surface, so to speak. Like, even me and Laura, like, we had to fight through so much to tell this story. Like, just being a black man and a white woman wanting to stand next to each other, like, that's a problem a lot of places in America. And so, like, there's all of these cycles that you see that need to be broken, but the first thing that you have to do is break the cycles within yourself. And so, like, there was times where, you know, even I was fighting against my own trauma, my own things that I may feel against white people that was causing, you know, static or whatnot between me and Laura and causing, you know, not this big, huge problem, but it. It was clear that there's this misunderstanding between us that needed to be kind of learned. And it was us growing over time, learning and loving each other, really learning to love each other as people that allowed us to come to a place where we can even begin to break those cycles within ourselves. And so that's what we begin to see more than anything. Like, I spent the first couple years angry, just so angry. And I want justice, and I want. And I was trying to make this man out to be a monster. But in the midst of that, you. All you really doing is just making a monster of yourself. Like, you know, it's not up to us to create this big ultimate change. That's God's. That. That is God's job. It is my job to play my little part that he gave me. And so I think that's where I had to learn the most inside myself and stop trying to, like, feel like I had to kind of fix the world and fix my part, fix what I'm doing and be able to connect. So, like, when I meet somebody like Laura, I'm not angry. And I'm saying all this white woman, get away from me. You can't tell our story. My mind and my heart is open to a point that I'm saying, like, maybe God is saying that this is what it takes, that it's not your story, it's our story.

AJ Holiday (58:40)

Absolutely. That's powerful.

Tam Bam (58:42)

Yeah. What about you, Laura?

Laura Diane Kusman (58:45)

I mean, one thing that I love to highlight, especially for anyone that has seen the film, and hopefully this allures people to see it whenever they have the opportunity to. But throughout the film, you hear Will's words kind of offer this poetic narration throughout the film that at these key transition points. And Will's words are basically like writing prompts that I gave him in in increments, like throughout the editing process. And they were recorded in. In one take, you know, with him, like, sitting down and just kind of like, you know, just like whatever was on his heart is what came out. And that became the ultimate, like, narration of the film. And what's really key to know is that that didn't happen linearly, is that that wasn't planned in terms of how that would all come together. And Will's narration throughout the film really represents the journey that both of both he and I took that he just alluded to. I mean, this has been an almost seven year process now for both of us. And so much of that is mirrored in what you see and experience in cycle. And, you know, it's a subtlety and people may think that, like, it was done intentionally, but, you know, you hear a shift in Will's tone as he's delivering these words in this narration. And that's because they were recorded years apart. And the final words that he leaves us with in the film were literally recorded a month before we had our world premiere at the Milwaukee Film Festival last May. So it wasn't up until that moment that it felt like we had the true conclusion that was meant for cycle until that moment. And it's because the revelations that he's having in real time are being captured in, in those words that were not pre written. Like, that's. That's all like, a genuine reflection of his personal journey. And in a lot of ways, my personal journey through that. And. And I. Neither of us could have predicted that the ultimate takeaway in terms of how to break the cycle is to start with the cycles within ourselves and the cycles that we can influence in our own circles. And that was so profound to me. I just remember when he sent me, like, the file of that final bit of narration that closes the film. Like, I, like, I was just. Yeah, I almost, like, dropped to my knees. I was. I was just like. Like, after all of this time, like, this is, like the representation of this journey that we've been on together. And I couldn't have pictured a more beautiful ending because it's really. It's not an ending. It's an invitation. It's. It's a way to extend. And this is what we really want from Cycle is for cycle to be this invitation for people to. To think differently and to have a deeper understanding of, you know, this issue that only gets talked about in a pretty, like, shallow way every time it hits the news cycle, at least the mainstream news cycle, and it's clipped. How deep we're actually able to go and understand of what has preceded this up to this moment in time in our history. So I always love highlighting that because it is so reflective of not just what we hope for cycle in terms of how to break the cycle, but is reflective of our own personal journeys.

Tam Bam (62:49)

Amen.

AJ Holiday (62:51)

Absolutely. Do you think independent films are more trusted now than news outlets?

William Howell (62:59)

Oh, I definitely believe that because of social media, you know, social media influencers, us being able to connect, even, like, with Steve O. Telling me about this podcast, he, like, dude, like, these two, like, they are the ones, they on fire. I believe that. You know what I mean? I believe that that trust and that, you know, and people being able to pick who they see in them and when you deliver information and we can take it as true and like, okay, like, these are the people that we want to filter our information from. I think that that's a beautiful thing that people. You know, there's so many different outlets, and everybody has the opportunity to choose who and what they believe or, you know, or what is truly for them.

AJ Holiday (63:45)

Absolutely. So do you guys think storytelling now is like the new form of activism, essentially? Because, yeah, it evokes a different feeling in you when you watch a film like this versus watching a news outlet.

Laura Diane Kusman (64:05)

I mean, I. I think that I, for a long time, have viewed the sort of, like, the sole attraction. I've always had to. This work to.

Tam Bam (64:17)

To.

Laura Diane Kusman (64:17)

To documentary work in journalism as fulfilling that. It's. I mean, because it's a mixture of. Of art and activism, but it's really, you know, how you choose to apply it. And for me, I mean, with everything happening in the world right now, and it just feels like it's just like a constant, you know, barrage of things that are vying for our attention at every moment. And, you know, in so much of it, especially with social media, is distraction engineered.

Tam Bam (64:54)

Mm.

Laura Diane Kusman (64:54)

A hundred percent. And so with a film like ours that took, you know, seven years for us to be here talking with you right now, and the time and the thoughtfulness and the intention that went into every single cut, every frame that you see in Cycle is intentional. Every word, the pacing of it, the. The music, shout out, immortal, immortal girlfriend. You know, everything was so intentional with this film. And. And, you know, a way that I have even in, like, this present time, kind of reconciled not being, like, quote, unquote, active in, like, responding and reacting to every horrible thing that comes up on my timeline. I have to ground myself in. In. In reminding myself that, at least for me, like, cycle is my resistance, like, is my form of resistance right now. And. And I think that we need more of that. Like, more people dedicated to carrying, you know, one flag fully, you know, and seeing it all the way through, rather than, you know, these, like, flashes in the pan where no one even knows what's going on or can't remember what happened last week.

Tam Bam (66:16)

So.

Laura Diane Kusman (66:16)

So, yeah, I mean, Cycle is a. You know, we. We're in it for the long haul with this one.

Tam Bam (66:23)

Absolutely. I have one last question. I have one last question. All right. For viewers who feel moved or even unsettled after watching this, what do y' all say they should do next?

William Howell (66:36)

Well, for us, it's. It's all about just opening up that door where people feel comfortable taking that next step, which, for us, it is trying to build a coalition, a coalition of people who feel like if you love this film, you, like, we need to spread this word. It was like, what? At our last Q and A, I explained to them that, to me, it's just like installing a new program. And so if all of us was here and we wanted to do this right here, if one of us didn't have a program, then that person wouldn't even be able to connect and wouldn't be able to be here. And that is how I truly feel about Cycle. And in that. In those moments when you have a kid like Tyrese and You have this cop and he hits this light and these are the only two people here in this dark area. Like, there is no understanding there. Tyrese, when he sees the lights, he's going to think every horrible thing in his mind about this cop. The cop is going to think every horrible thing about Tyrese. And so there's no programming there. There's nothing where they're able to connect in that moment. And to me, like, that is what cycle represents. That's what cycle becomes. If we're able to present cycle and put it into the lives of a young 18, 19 year old white kid who doesn't know yet that he might become a police officer, but even cycle starts to inspire him to even go down that line, then I feel like it is up to us to change the programming. And the more that we focus there, I believe that those things can happen.

AJ Holiday (68:08)

Absolutely, man.

Tam Bam (68:15)

Definitely a very heavy topic. But I'm glad that y' all came and shared with us. When I began watching the film, I, you know, I felt pulled to the floor with the heaviness, honestly. But as the film went on, I left with a hopeful feeling. Is that what you intended for the viewer?

Laura Diane Kusman (68:33)

Yeah, absolutely. You know, in the beginning we, you know, and I've said this before, but like, the film is such a reflection of our own discovery of not only what this film needed to be, you know, like the higher purpose that we feel like this film needed to exist for, but also our real time discussion, discovery of how the system works. You know, we went into it, you know, wanting for Monique west what she wanted at first, which was her day in court, and to see this officer properly convicted and, and held accountable for what he had done to her son. But as the process went on, as the years went by and this federal case dragged out in court the way that it did, you know, one of the most sobering realizations that, that I had is that that hope was never an option. It's not even baked into how the system is constructed in the first place. And the more people realize that, the more we can have a more productive conversation politically, legislatively about what needs to change, you know, in this country in order to prevent the frequency and the ease with which this shit happens all the fucking time. Most of the time you don't hear about it, just like with Tyrese's case. And the more we can put a spotlight on how the system is constructed, the more you people can't look at it the same way again, the more people can't stop short at banging their Head against a wall every time that an officer isn't charged. Well, you have to understand that the likelihood of him being charged in the first place was little to none. Derek Chauvin was an exception. He was used as a. You know, that. That was a sacrifice.

Tam Bam (70:40)

Let's throw him a bone.

Laura Diane Kusman (70:43)

Yes, 100%. The average case does not end with. With that outcome. And. And I think that it is a disservice for families to, you know, already be navigating this, like, horrendous tragedy where you're not given any level of support whatsoever, and you have to, like. Like, dig, like, ridiculously deep for the endurance and the help that you need to even take it as far as Monique west did, only to realize that settling was your only option to begin with. No one told her that.

Tam Bam (71:19)

Right.

Laura Diane Kusman (71:19)

And so I think that was a civil lawsuit afterwards. So the lawsuit that was filed two months after Tyrese or the. The officer, Eric Gizy, was not charged by the Racine DA that lawsuit dragged on for, like, three and a half years. And. And. And what ended up happening is that, you know, it's either after all of this time, you. You risk walking away with nothing, or you take a very menial settlement that they're offering you, and at that point, you're exhausted. I mean, Monique, she says at the end of the film, like. Like, Laura, I'm tired. Like, I.

Tam Bam (72:02)

Like.

Laura Diane Kusman (72:02)

All I want is peace, you know, for my kids, you know, for us to live in a. In a home that they've always wanted and to just, you know, reclaim some sense of joy and happiness. And Will says it so beautifully at the end of the film. We were never meant to be this angry. God never intended us to be this angry. You know, she never asked for this to begin with. So, you know, it really is our hope that the film can also be, like, an instructional tool in a blueprint for people to follow. As the bike wheel is taking you, you know, along this chronological journey of systemically how the cycle works, you know, for it to only, you know, land where we started and for it to perpetuate. You know, we hope that it can be a blueprint for people to understand, you know, how the system was constructed in the first place.

AJ Holiday (73:00)

Yeah, this is absolutely a great documentary, but I don't know if I. You know, like Tammy said, she was. She was full of hopefulness. That's definitely not how I'm always mad, Right. So I try to pick and choose what I lend my energy to. I'm mad about this type of stuff. I don't really internalize it as much anymore, because I understand that there is nothing that will change the hearts of individual people if they never experience what Tyrese's mom experienced. Their hearts will never. There's no legislation that can change the hearts of the people. It literally has to be ass whoopings to change.

Tam Bam (73:42)

I just feel like, why do you think something like this? Like, you could. The pain was palpable. Like, you could feel it. How could you watch this and not, like, almost experience it yourself? In a way not real truthfully, but in a way. Like, it was so heart gripping that

AJ Holiday (74:00)

it just made me hopefully see ourselves in the characters.

Tam Bam (74:04)

Yeah. Other people would see it and feel it in a real way, not just like reading a news article like, oh, this happened to another black man. Damn. But really feel this shit. Because that's what I felt when I watched it myself. And maybe I'm a huge impetus and. And that's not everybody's situation. So maybe I felt it in a different way that other.

AJ Holiday (74:25)

I want to fight. That's how I feel.

William Howell (74:27)

That's. That's exactly. That is exactly the emotion that is conveyed to, you know, to me as well. And in same way, I'm an empath. But at the. At the same time, this was what drew me to Laura, her understanding for what she is doing. You are experiencing 95 minutes of what we experienced in six years. She is squeezing it into this. But her. Just her professionalism and her care and understanding this story and treating our pain as a process instead of just kind of throwing it at you. It was just beautifully done because she's emotionally, at the same time, watching how traumatized I am in real life and realizing that he doesn't even know that he's traumatized. He's literally just living his life. So your anger. Right. Your anger is yours. It's valid. And that's what drove me to stand for Tyrese. If I didn't have this anger that I felt, then I never stand up. I kind of just like, you know, everybody else. And so your anger is a part of what God has provided you in order to. To, you know, take you to that next step. Your anger. There's blessings in your anger as much as in your happiness. And you just have to kind of let things unfold in life sometimes.

AJ Holiday (75:49)

Yeah.

Tam Bam (75:49)

How can people view this documentary? Where can they see it? Where can they. Like, how can people be a part of the almost mental process that it took? How can they. How can they get this?

William Howell (76:02)

Well, for now, we're going to be Focusing on the festival circuit. We really want to be able to take this film into a lot of these film festivals and we're having an opportunity. Like, we've. Like I said, this is Laura's first feature film. This is my first time journeying into, like, the filmmaking space. And so, like, even like going to Pan African. Like, you have all of these true black stars. You have black star power in this film is went from, you know, us at home here in Milwaukee premiering, to going into these different places where you have true black star power in these different people who are really prominent within the film industry and they are like, you know, really helping Cycle to grow into breathing us as filmmakers. We are gaining the confidence to. To do these things. Like me last year, I wouldn't have been able to sit here and do an interview or get on the news. And like, this entire process for the last 10 months has prepared me to kind of step into the spotlight and kind of learn what it means to represent cycle and to be a. A filmmaker on this level and to represent also some. A company like Lion Art Media and Laura, something that she has put her heart and her life into and to, you know, not take those things lightly.

Tam Bam (77:19)

Is there anywhere like IG or any way people can follow the process or how can we keep up with this story?

Laura Diane Kusman (77:27)

Yeah, so Cycle Movie is our IG handle. We also have a Facebook page. I always direct people to Will's Facebook page specifically, since he's got such a following there. But on Igycle Movie is where you can follow our festival journey and all the updates coming out. And yeah, like Will said, we're going to continue on the festival circuit. You know, LA at the Pan African Film Festival was our fifth festival. We premiered at the Milwaukee Film Festival, took it to Brooklyn, took it to Miami, took it to D.C. and we were just in LA a week ago. And coming up, we have some regional festivals. And then. And then we're going to be. Cycle will be in Seattle in April. So, yeah, I mean, right now it's. We're trying to maximize the amount of people who can see it, who can talk about it, who can create a demand for it in their own cities. Because we want to bring Cycle everywhere that we can, wherever there's an audience for it. And with that, we're hoping to, you know, leverage that demand for our ability to get it on a platform that makes it accessible and widely seen by as many people as possible. That's the goal.

Tam Bam (78:49)

Amen. Well, I'll be praying for that to happen for you guys, for real. Thank y' all for coming on the show. Thank y' all for what y' all doing. Y' all are doing the Lord's work whether you know it or not. You really are so salute to you both. Seriously.

AJ Holiday (79:05)

Absolutely. We really, really appreciate y'. All. Stay prayed up and have weapons.

William Howell (79:14)

Thank y'. All. Thank y' all so much for everything though. We really appreciate it.

Laura Diane Kusman (79:20)

All right, y'.

William Howell (79:20)

All.

AJ Holiday (79:20)

So if you enjoyed this episode, y' all tune in every Thursday on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast at. This is your co host, AJ Holiday 2.0 on Instagrams.

William Howell (79:33)

My name is William Howell and I am the co director of the award winning film Cycle. And you can contact us at Psychomovie on Instagram.

Laura Diane Kusman (79:44)

And I am Laura Diane Kusman. I am the director and editor of Cycle. And like Will said, you can follow us at Cycle Movie Miss Official Tam Bam.

Tam Bam (79:56)

I love y' all so, so very much every week. I appreciate y' all for tuning in.

AJ Holiday (80:00)

Remember, speak now and never hold your peace.

Tam Bam (80:03)

Period. Okay?

AJ Holiday (80:04)

Deuce We Talk Back Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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