Am I Emotionally Numb? Signs Of Emotional Numbness and What To Do Next

Summary

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Episode Overview

Episode Title: Am I Emotionally Numb? Signs Of Emotional Numbness and What To Do Next
Podcast: What Your Therapist Thinks
Hosts: Felicia Keller Boyle, Kristie Plantinga
Guest: Arianna Wheat (Ari), Licensed MFT & Drama Therapist
Date: September 10, 2025

In this insightful episode, the hosts and guest therapist Arianna Wheat dive into one of the most common, anonymous mental health questions: “Am I emotionally numb, and what do I do about it?” Together, they unpack the true meaning of emotional numbness, explore its roots in trauma and neurodivergence, and share practical strategies for getting reconnected to your feelings. Through clinical wisdom, Reddit case studies, and personal reflection, they aim to dismantle the myth of “brokenness,” explain the science of numbing and dissociation, and offer real hope for healing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding “Emotional Numbness”

[04:20–08:00]

• Emotional numbness is not a lack of emotion, but an overwhelmed system:
  • Ari: “People think that they have gone numb, but they are actually feeling so so much that the system is overwhelmed, pushed beyond its threshold. So you’ve activated the fire blanket, but the fire is very much there...” [04:37]
  • Emotional numbness typically results from unreleased or unprocessed feelings, similar to the way depression can result from suppressed anger, sadness or grief.
• Felicia: “There’s always emotion underneath...You might not be—yes, I guess you’re numb in that it’s like you’re not feeling it right now, but it’s not like it’s not there.” [06:25]

2. The Spectrum: Numbness, Sensitivity, & Survival

[10:25–13:41]

• The panel discusses how being highly sensitive can leave someone susceptible to developing numbing as a survival strategy.
• Kristie: “I just like exhaust myself emotionally to the point where I’m just like, oh, you know, and then I just kind of can’t feel anymore.” [09:42]
• Numbing can develop as a shield, especially in neurodivergent people who receive more emotional input (“porousness”).
• Ari: HSP (Highly Sensitive Person) can fit under the neurodivergent umbrella, often requiring special coping mechanisms because “they’re literally getting more information absorbed into their systems on a regular basis.” [10:35]

3. Socialization & Triggers for Emotional Numbing

[17:55–20:01]

• Numbing is often a response to unsafe environments and/or implicit societal feedback.
• Ari: “...the lens cap is formed by generational trauma, social societal trauma, parent trauma...they forgot to check it...Didn’t have access to support a feeling.” [17:58]
• Felicia: “If you’re not safe to, like, walk around [emotionally open],...you’re going to learn to, like, gum up the system so you don’t get that much information.” [18:27]
• Repeated messages—explicit or not—that “having full access to your emotions… makes people uncomfortable...that could then lead to an issue of your safety” push people to learn to mask or numb. [18:40–19:52]

4. Trauma, Dissociation, & the Nervous System

[20:04–29:33]

• Ari and Felicia dissect a Reddit post describing rapid shutdown during trauma processing, identifying dissociation and hypoarousal.
• Felicia: “This is very, very old technology. This is like evolutionary biology.” [22:57]
• Concepts explained:
  • Window of Tolerance: Where we are alert and present but calm; outside it, we become hypoaroused or hyperaroused.
  • Hyperarousal: Fight or flight.
  • Hypoarousal: Freeze, shut down, play dead (dissociation).
• Felicia: “With therapy, we try to increase the window of tolerance so we can feel more without plummeting into shutdown.” [28:00]
• Ari: “It’s a mirroring that’s happening in that co-regulation, right? You’re bringing your story forward and you’re so afraid...So then therapist is leaning in...Look, I’m not scared. You don’t have to be scared.” [29:33]

5. How to Move Through Emotional Numbness

[31:17–34:34]

• Felicia’s advice: Somatic (body-oriented) therapy and grounding practices to expand awareness of one’s own arousal states and bodily sensations:
  • “...help them just learn how to monitor their arousal...if you do get into hyper hypoarousal, you’re like, okay, I know what’s happening here.” [31:17]
• Ari’s drama therapy lens: Use simple “feelings vocabulary,” externalize the experience, imagine what someone else might feel in your situation, and then gently notice where that emotion might live in the body.
  • “There’s a part at which you’re, like, there’s a sweet spot between I’m so emotionally overwhelmed...and too deep in the process…I’m too far removed.” [34:22]

6. The “Shoulds” and Societal Pressures

[40:29–44:54]

• Emotional numbness is often tangled up with expectations about how we “should” feel.
  • Ari: “The loudest thing that I heard in there was the shoulds…When you’re shoulding all over yourself, usually that means some sort of like, shame response is present.” [40:30]
  • Notable Reddit Example: Woman gets a raise at work but feels nothing; feels she “should” be ecstatic.
• Ari’s Suggestion: Practice radical acceptance; celebrate in your own way, no need to “perform” a specific emotion. Even giving yourself a sticker can be enough. [43:36]
• Felicia: “I don’t like performing a certain emotion...that should quote-unquote be genuine.” [43:55]
• Kristie: “It’s almost like—who told us this narrative of, like, you should feel this way in these situations?” [44:57]

7. “Am I Broken?” and Challenging the Brokenness Myth

[47:44–50:03]

• Recurring listener fear: “Am I broken if I don’t cry or don’t feel?”
  • Kristie: “I think people just really want to know, am I broken? Like, is there something wrong with me that I am not crying?” [47:44]
  • Ari: “You’re not broken, but society is trying to break you.” [48:47]
• Therapy challenge: Get curious about and “thicken” the narrative—maybe it’s not YOU that’s broken, but the expectation or situation.

8. The Path to Healing: Radical Acceptance and Present-Moment Awareness

[51:41–52:25]

• Felicia: Change starts with “radical connection to the current reality.” Be present with what is. This is the foundation for change, even if it’s uncomfortable.
  • “Let’s just be here and connect to a basic sense of okayness…because at that point, really, fundamentally, there is a sense of okayness.” [52:05]
  • “When we start on our healing journey, we’re like, I want it to be this way…Let’s just be here together for a moment...[that] is the foundation of real change.” [52:14–52:25]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you touch fire, you feel pain. Well, it’s not wrong to be in pain.”
  — Arianna Wheat [00:06] & [47:52]
• “There’s always emotion underneath… you might not be—yes, I guess you’re numb in that it’s like you’re not feeling it right now, but it’s not like it’s not there.”
  — Felicia Keller Boyle [06:25]
• “You’re not broken, but society is trying to break you.”
  — Arianna Wheat [48:47]
• “When you’re shoulding all over yourself, usually that means some sort of like, shame response is present.”
  — Arianna Wheat [40:30]
• “Let’s just be here and connect to a basic sense of okayness. Because at that point…there is a sense of okayness.”
  — Felicia Keller Boyle [52:05]
• “Part of being in your window of tolerance is not just that you can be present, but that you can also be in the seat of the observer of your own internal landscape.”
  — Felicia Keller Boyle [34:34]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–00:54: Hosts set up central question: “Am I broken if I feel numb?”
• 04:20–07:49: Ari and Felicia define numbness as an overwhelmed—not absent—emotional system.
• 10:25–13:41: The link between being highly sensitive, neurodivergent, and numbing as survival.
• 17:55–20:01: Generational and societal trauma as foundation for learned numbness.
• 20:04–29:33: Reddit PTSD example; deep dive into dissociation, hypoarousal, and co-regulation in therapy.
• 31:17–34:34: Strategies for healing: somatic therapy, grounding, drama therapy techniques.
• 40:29–44:54: The “shoulds” of emotional expression; challenging societal narratives; case study about feeling numb even after positive events.
• 47:44–50:03: Challenging the myth of “brokenness”; therapy as a place to re-write old narratives.
• 51:41–52:25: Foundation for healing: radical acceptance and being present.

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Tone & Style

The mood is candid, supportive, and conversational. The therapists blend humor and clinical wisdom. There’s warmth, vulnerability, and reassurance to listeners that “emotional numbness” is a fully human, understandable response—not a flaw. The tone is never pathologizing; instead, it’s filled with permission to be present, gentle, and curious with oneself.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• You are not broken for feeling emotionally numb. It’s a coping system, not a character flaw, and it often means you are feeling too much, not too little.
• Therapy can help you expand your window of tolerance—so you can process more emotion safely, at your own pace.
• Somatic awareness (noticing your body) and grounding practices are key tools.
• Challenge the “shoulds.” Don’t measure your feelings against external or societal expectations.
• Healing starts with radical acceptance of the present moment, not rushing to “fix” or bypass it.

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Want more? Find “What Your Therapist Thinks” every week on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube.

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Transcript

[A]

I think people just really want to know, am I broken? Like, is there something wrong with me that I am not crying?

[B]

You're not broken, but society is trying to break you. If you touch fire, you feel pain. Well, it's not wrong to be in pain.

[C]

I guess for me, I'm thinking, like, there's no such thing, really, as emotional numbness, because there's always emotion underneath. It's taken me, like, my whole adult life so far to learn how to just hang out with people. People, like, literally could not. As a young person, the first thing.

[B]

That I would talk about with this person is.

[A]

I've literally asked my therapist this. I'm like, can you just tell me what to do?

[B]

And she's like, no.

[C]

That's like the same energy of, like, a puppy that's, like, trying to get away with something. And then you're like, no. And they're like, well, okay, but what about, like, this way?

[A]

It's like, still.

[B]

No.

[C]

Still.

[A]

Still. I really way of doing it is like, can I kind of get your permission to do this? It's very manipulative of me, but I'm.

[C]

Like, does she give you her permission?

[A]

She's kind of like, yeah.

[C]

I hate to break it to you, Christie, but that's. I don't think that's any more subtle or sneaky. Wow.

[A]

Wow. I guess not. This is actually just tips for people in therapy on how to get what you really want out of therapy, you know, and turns out it's not my guesses. So glad you two are here. But, yeah, why don't we introduce ourselves and then we can get into our super, super interesting topic for the day. I'm Christy Plantiga. I'm the co host of the what your therapist thinks podcast. If you have not gathered by now, I am not a therapist, but I've been to a lot of therapy. Some could call me a therapy connoisseur. I love mental health. I'm really passionate about it.

[C]

Hi, I'm Felicia. I am a licensed psychotherapist. I'm a licensed psychotherapist in California. I've been in the mental health field for probably about 15 years. These days, I work as a business coach, helping other therapists run their private practices.

[B]

I'm Ariana Wheat. I'm a. A psychotherapist as well. Lamifta. Licensed mft. That's what we call ourselves. Lamiftas. We definitely do.

[C]

We don't call ourselves that unless this is what starts that trend Now, Lamifta.

[B]

I'm also a drama therapist. Using Utah techniques to enliven the soul and bring forward inner truth. And I am currently about to re embark into private practice.

[C]

Yay. She's taking clients, people.

[A]

Oh, listen up. Ari is here today because of our. Our topic essentially, people on the Internet wondering, am I emotionally numb? Which is a question that a lot of people have. Have asked themselves. It's searched a lot on Google, people, you know, seeking advice on Reddit. It was interesting. While I was doing research for this topic, at first I thought it was just people looking, you know, am I emotionally numb or depressed? Because I think those two. Obviously the symptoms can be very, very similar between the two. But as I was looking more into it, you know, different subreddit communities are coming up. So the parenting ones or ADHD ones, CPTSD or complex ptsd. So I think the general question is, am I emotionally numb? What does emotionally numb even feel like? Because if you're not feeling. It's hard to determine if you are feeling emotionally numb or not. But then also, what is this sometimes confused with, you know, how can you seek help for something. So Ari is here to provide her feedback on her experience with emotional numbness. And Felicia, of course, as well. But maybe let's start there with. How about our experience with, you know, either as clinicians or maybe personal experience with emotional numbness? Do you want to kick us off, Ari?

[B]

Sure, we will definitely do that. Yes. Emotional numbness. I was thinking about this. You know how when there's a fire in a room and you freak out, like, maybe you are able to snuff out the fire, like with a fire blanket or, you know, copious amounts of flour, sand, if it's a grease fire, it's almost like a snuffing out of big emotions that's happening, that emotional numbness. Well, I mean, the fire is a terrible analogy, now that I've said it, because in this instance, the fire is still very much raging. I think, like, my experience with emotional numbness is that people think that they have gone numb, but they are actually feeling so so much that the system is overwhelmed, pushed beyond its threshold. So you've activated the fire blanket, but the fire is very much there, and the emotions are rolling through you, but they do not have an outlet. And so similarly to depression, which can often be like, the sublimation of different emotions, like anger and sadness and grief, you push these down and it can turn into a mechanism that fights against itself internally. And then we have this depression going on, and then we have the emotional numbness. Oh, I think I'M numb. I'm not feeling anything. Well, ooh, honey, you're feeling everything. And it's just kind of waiting to reach a tipping point. And that may manifest in different behaviors, maybe more avoidant behaviors, or maybe more, I think, extreme behaviors, because your body's trying to tip, trying to get that fire to have a little oxygen and be felt.

[C]

So it sounds like what you're saying, Ari, is emotional numbness is sort of a response that we have to some of these big painful emotions. Like, it's not. It's not the absence of feeling so much as it is like a covering up or like you said, a snuffing out. It doesn't allow them to really dissipate or get released. It's sort of like just getting blocked, covered up. I guess for me, I'm thinking, like, there's no such thing really as emotional numbness because there's always emotion underneath. You might not be. Yes, I guess you're numb in that it's like you're not feeling it right now, but it's not like it's not there. Like, oh, I just don't have feelings. It's like, yes, you've got the feelings, you've got the emotions. You're just not aware of them right now.

[A]

And we're kind of feeling something like all the time. Right. I mean, again, this is from like a non therapist, but it's like at any given time, it's like you're probably feeling something. Maybe it's not super strong, but like there's always some kind of internal state.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

When you're paying close attention, there's always like. I think of them as waves. Like, this is something that I would do with my clients is like really noticing the subtleties of the shifting emotions. And if you're like really, really bringing close attention, you'll feel like these kind of like bumps and waves and these troughs. And without even intending to, you'll see this like whole universe of shifting emotions if you're just paying attention. But it's really easy for us to. Well, not always, but sometimes it's really easy for us to not pay attention, to numb out, and to just kind of close off that sense of ourselves.

[A]

What about you, Felicia? What is. What is your clinical, maybe personal experience with being emotionally numb or witnessing people be emotionally numb?

[C]

Yeah, this topic is really close to home for me. Like, on a personal level, I remember this is probably in my late 20s, maybe early 30s. I had this sense of like, thawing out. Like that was the word that came to mind for me as it was happening. I was finally getting help for something that had been basically a lifelong problem. And I started noticing a much wider range of feelings. Like I was feeling sad in a way I'd never felt sad before. I was feeling happy and optimistic in ways I had never felt happy before. It was like all of a sudden life started to have this color to it. And my experience of myself when I was a young person, when I was growing up was like, that I was very sad. Like I was very aware that I was very sad and pretty angry as well. But when I was, yeah, getting this help, I was like, oh. Like that was actually more numb than anything else. Like I thought I was sad, but it was like a very kind of muted sadness. Now I'm actually feeling like the real grief and the real loss related to what happened. And that feels like it's got more texture to it. It feels more alive in a way that it never felt before. So yeah, it was. That's my experience with like going from being emotionally numb and I didn't realize it while it was happening. I didn't realize until I was thawing out and coming out of it that that's what had been occurring for a huge part of my life.

[A]

Yeah, I guess, you know, my own experience with it is like I can't relate to the numbness. I feel like my emotions are always.

[C]

Like, woo.

[A]

Super dialed up. So it's. It's honestly hard for me to imagine. I think one thing that I've done is I just like exhaust myself emotionally to the point where I'm just like, oh, you know, and then I. I just kind of can't feel anymore. But one of our examples is about someone who is a highly sensitive person, which I know it's not an official diagnosis, but every time I read about it I'm like, eh, that sounds right from my own experience and kind of learning to become emotionally numb over time. And I think we'll absolutely get into this how it's used as a coping mechanism to really just kind of survive. A lot of times people I know, they're always like, you're so in touch with your emotions and they're almost like, how do you do it?

[C]

You're like, not a choice.

[A]

Yeah, literally not a light switch on. It's just since, you know, November 24, 1992, that light switch has been on, you know.

[B]

And when you said the highly sensitive person piece, I saw a talk about neurodivergence and how highly sensitive HSP is. Actually on the neurodivergence spectrum. And it is something that you get to claim or yourself as part of the neurodivergent community, which is very exciting, but absolutely the shields we have to put up to exist in the world, especially when you exist on a spectrum where you're just kind of absorbing way more emotional information, which can be true for neurodivergent communities. Like, they're. That they're literally getting more information absorbed into their systems on a regular basis. Like, it's. It was fascinating, but I wanted to just pop that in there.

[C]

That makes me think of, like, another analogy that I've had over the years, which is a sense of porousness. Like, I think about the aperture on a camera and how you can, like, open it up to let in more light and close it down to let in less light. And I feel like another. Another part of my experience growing up is I felt like it was just all the way open. There's so much porousness, so much openness, and there wasn't really an ability to kind of make that smaller. It was like, if there's an emotion, I'm feeling it. And I would guess that this is probably a pretty common trait amongst people who become therapists. Right. Because it's like, okay, that is such an amazing skill to be that sensitive.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And if you get me one on one with a person, it's like, again, such a great skill, and maybe not so overwhelming because I can really dial it in. Right. But then if you're just one of those people who's just trying to go to the grocery store or, like, socialize and have fun, it's like, oh, my God, that's. I'm just supposed to have fun, but there's all this information coming in. I'm really curious about that. I wonder if there are a bunch of hsps who become therapists. I suspect there probably are. Ari, what do you think about this?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

True.

[B]

In my case, yes. You're drawn to it because you can. You can sense more information than what's seemingly being said. Right. And you probably found yourself playing that role. Yeah. In life long before you ever started to study therapist or coach or like, before you make that transition. You were probably acting in that role somehow long before we came down this path.

[A]

You think part of it is also. I remember I used to do this when I felt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, mine was kind of more out of control. It's like I was so drawn to emotional conversations because it felt like, oh, I get to hang out in the world of emotion because usually it's kind of like tone it down, you know, so it's like your daily life is like, feel less, but then when you're like talking to a friend about something or in therapy. Yeah, you're. You're in it, you know? Do you think there's this, like, from therapists who identify as HSPs, highly sensitive people they're more attracted to just like being in that. That world where it's like, you know what I mean?

[C]

Yeah. Are you kidding me?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's taken me like my whole adult life so far to learn how to just hang out with people. Like, literally could not. As a young person, it's like I just needed to find a one on one conversation and like, it was like, that's where I thrived. The other side of that is it can also be really exhausting. Right. If that's the only thing you know how to do, then even if that's what's comfortable and that's what feels natural, it can also be really tiring because it just means that you're absorbing really intense emotional content all the time. So over the years, it's been important for me to learn how to close those app, Close that aperture down. Ari, what about you? Like, what's your experience with this? You're like, oh, no. Was not planning on talking about, like, small talk is hard for me.

[B]

You know, Like, I could do it with friends, but if I'm meeting someone new, like, definitely the person in the room who's like, I'm in a major life transition. Like, I will be at a casual party just hanging out and the person who's like, I have felt unseen my whole life until you came to this party will come and sit next to me and I'm just like, oh, I don't know how else to respond other than to like, respond deeply and affirming. And then, oops, we're time traveling again. Like, I didn't mean to do inner child work at the party. I really just wanted to hang out and it's a struggle.

[A]

Happens to us.

[C]

Why did you really just want to hang out? Like, that's the thing. It's like we claim, we claim and yet, yet again and again, we do.

[A]

Not just chill night.

[C]

I feel like I have two modes and I watched this happen this weekend because we were hosting friends and so we were hanging out with them and then we were also in social situations and groups and I feel like I have like two modes. Basically, it's either like one on one Intense, deep conversation or like, comedian. Even if it's not one of those, it's just silence. I will just sit there in a group of people and not speak.

[A]

Cool.

[C]

Just like. Because I'm like. The small talk is so hard. I'm like, I. Yeah, I don't care. Yeah, I don't know how to care. I just. Is there some way I can make you laugh or make you cry? If it's not one of those, I'll just. Don't worry, I'll just be here.

[B]

I have to be coached by a friend in terms of, like, obviously.

[C]

I cannot wait to hear.

[B]

That's obviously what my face indicated. We were.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Just now. But yes, you know, you get the hey, how are you? Which is meh. Like, if you ask me how I am, I'm going to literally give you a response. Well, I woke up feeling this way, you know, I'm transitioning into the rest of the day and I'm feeling good about the week, you know. No, you're just supposed to be like, oh, I'm chill. Let's go and make small talk. And it's hard. But my friend was like, yeah, you have to ask, like, closed. I hate questions. Right. Don't ask. Tell me really about your, you know, something that, like, ignites your passion. Right. Like, you shouldn't. Apparently you shouldn't ask that as a question. One out the door. You should be like, oh, I noticed you like music. What are your top five albums that you like?

[C]

Like, do or don't ask question.

[B]

You do. Ask the closed question. Don't ask the big, like.

[C]

Okay, I apparently need coaching too.

[B]

You want to save that for later? Day two. Day two.

[A]

Day two. That's fine. Right? That's what interesting. Like, when we think. I love the. The. The visual of like, a aperture on a. A camera. Because, I mean, that's kind of like the opposite side. But you're saying, Ari, everyone's kind of full aperture in terms of, like, how they experience things. But there's like this blanket almost that people who feel emotionally numb.

[C]

Maybe the lens cap is on if we're staying with the camera.

[B]

I like it over this camera.

[C]

I've done film photography.

[B]

The lens cap is on. And I don't necessarily think that everyone is highly sensitive, but I think we all come to the world with an expanse of emotions and access to those emotions. And then the lens cap is formed by generational trauma, social societal trauma, parent trauma that they either directly inflict or was inflicted upon them, and they forgot to check it. Didn't have access to support a feeling.

[C]

Of maybe not being safe. Like, if you're not safe to, like, walk around, if you've been walking around with those with your aperture open and you've been harmed, it's like you're going to learn to, like, try to gum up the system so you don't get that much information.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Or just like you're saying this one.

[B]

Way or another that, like, to be this open in the world is dangerous, then what are you going to do? You're going to start to find ways to close it off. If you've been told that having full access to your emotions, somehow you got the negative feedback of, like, this makes other people uncomfortable, that could then lead to an issue of your safety. You should lock that down. We receive these messages explicitly sometimes, but more times than not implicitly. Coming back to the neurodivergent conversation that I've, like, now wormed my way in here, that's in the realm of masking. Right. You have received through the harm of constant interpersonal ruptures, of being missed by so many people in so many ways that gradually you develop this mask of neurotypical to survive. Right. So you're also being told, like, hey, the way that I'm feeling and existing in the world maybe isn't right somehow. So you develop a way of coping.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Emotional numbing can be a form of coping. It can be a form of. What's the one where you kind of float away? Disassociation. Yeah.

[C]

Do you have an example that gets into these topics?

[A]

Yeah. So this is from the subreddit ptsd. Someone looking for advice. I've realized that when I do cry about my trauma or anything related to my trauma, I may be sob for like 30 seconds and feel a yawn coming. And then my emotions kind of just get switched off as easily as the flip of a switch. And I stop crying immediately. Not even the sniffles. I just completely stop and turn off. It has made it really hard to process my trauma. And I minimize my trauma because of it because I feel like a fake. If I can just flip the switch off just like that, my chest just goes empty too, as if I'm over it or like, I never thought much of it in the first place, which is not true because I feel a lot of pain and grief from it. That usually kickstarts my crying. Does anyone experience emotional numbing like this too?

[C]

Ari, that sounds Dagon. That's. And everything they described. To me, that sounds like dissociation. What's Your.

[B]

I wasn't sure if, if we're going into dissociation or I'm like, did they complete a cycle in 30 seconds? Which is, you know, I don't know, like.

[C]

Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit because we just got into therapist speak. So Ari and I were just referencing is the different arousal states that our nervous system can be in. And when I say arousal, I'm talking about the energetic tone in our nervous system. You may or may not have heard the term window of tolerance. And this is the sort of range, energetic range that our nervous system can be in, in which we are both like alert and present, but we are relatively calm. We can engage with others, we can take in information. We're not feeling threatened, but we're also feeling present. So it's kind of like you're in between hyper and hypoarousal. Hyperarousal is when your nervous system really kind of shoots up. There's like this flood of energy into the system. This is our fight or flight response. And so this is when we're under threat, we get a bunch of energy rush into our system and this is what allows us to either fight or flee. The opposite side of the spectrum is hypoarousal. So that's almost like your, your nervous system is really kind of slowing you down. It's like if you fail to run away from the tiger right before it's about to bite into you, your nervous system just goes, oh, let's play dead. One more last ditch effort to survive this moment. Let's just play dead. Let's kind of dissociate because either they're going to think I'm dead and they're going to walk away because they don't want to eat me.

[A]

That's what you do with grizzly bears. Yeah, you play dead.

[C]

Really? Okay. We learn. Learning all sorts of new things.

[A]

A survival tip from me. And I hate the arbores.

[C]

How do you know this?

[A]

I think one of your greatest fear is the outdoors. You really learn fair. So survive. But so hypoarousal. So hypoarousal.

[C]

So exactly. That you're, you know, your predator will either think you're already dead and it won't want to eat you, or if it's like, no, I'm still going to eat this thing. You're not going to be as present in your body when that moment comes. And so this is very, very old technology. This is like evolutionary biology. This is how we've been able to survive as a species for A really, really long time. And so when I'm hearing this story, I'm thinking about hypoarousal. This person's yawning. They go numb really quickly. It didn't seem like their nervous system got activated. Like, it elevated. It sounds like it suddenly dropped. Now, what Ari was saying is like, well, maybe it's a quick cycle.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And so what she means when she's saying that, Ari, you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that you complete that sort of chain of increase of emotions, and then there's kind of a release, kind of like a satisfying release and a completion rather than a cutting off.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So rather, it might be like you are in your window of tolerance and sort of like you stay in your window of tolerance, you know, or you maybe go out of your window of tolerance, but then you come back into it. We're kind of asking, like, where's this person on that spectrum between in your window of tolerance or hyper arousal or hypo arousal?

[B]

I love everything you said and want to switch sides now.

[A]

Oh, okay, great. Especially the grizzly bear stuff. I think that was probably the highlight of all. Best part.

[C]

If you remember nothing else about nervous system regulation, remember the Grizzly bearzel Survive.

[A]

A grizzly bear attack.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Don't run. You don't want to fight or flight your way out of a grizzly bear situation.

[A]

Now I need to secure. I'm like, maybe those black bears. Oh, God. Okay, I'm a little later.

[C]

Side effect of listening to this podcast is now everyone has a bear phobia. They're like, I went here for mental health help, and now I'm terrified of bears, and I live in. I live in Hawaii, and now I'm afraid of bears. But are you said you're going, you're switching. So what do you think happened?

[B]

I was initially kind of playing with the idea of kind of like the polyvagal response. Right. Polyvagal again. We're coming back to the nervous system. There's a thing in your brain, right. It's carrying information. It's a nerve. It's carrying information across the hemispheres. When you are able to complete a cycle, you tend to yawn, you will swallow, you'll breathe, your body will come back and reset. So that's kind of what I was initially wondering if that was happening from the yawn. But, I mean, that's really short, and I do feel like something is being deployed, especially when you read the piece about how they minimize their experience. And I'm like, ooh I wonder which came first. Well, I suspect what definitely came first is they've been minimizing their emotional experience for so long so that even when they express it, it's clipped in these ways. And then that just further adds to their internal story of, like, oh, I'm minimizing my emotions, and, oh, look, my trauma's not real. Their trauma is very, very real. So I think I'm Team disassociation. Incomplete cycle.

[C]

Incomplete cycle. If this person came to therapy with me and they were like, okay, this is what happened this last week. What I would want to know, based on what you just said, Ari, I love that insight, is like, are you aware of what you were thinking right before you stopped crying? And then if it sounds like one of their goals here is to actually have a more emotional experience when they're thinking about this and being with us, like, it's kind of sounding to me like they're wanting to cry and to feel their feelings and to not feel so clipped. And so I think in the therapy session, if that was, you know, something they were wanting to experience, I would say I'd spend some time with, like, nervous system education. I would help them learn to track it. And then I'd say, okay, let's. Let's just talk about this, and you might cry. And then let's also just be really, really aware of the unfolding of your inner experience as you're going through this, and you might just suddenly stop crying. But let's see if we can bring more awareness to that and see if there are any triggers for that. Because, yeah, maybe you are just completing a cycle. Maybe it's feeling that way, or maybe there is a sort of minimizing thought that comes in right before you stop crying, and that sensation shuts it down.

[B]

It's building up in your chest. And I do this a lot with my clients. I'm like, what do you feel in your chest, in your stomach? I'm like, do you feel that prickling sensation behind your eyes right now? Getting them to focus on the sensations of the body, but also notice that moment, like, where you starting to feel something in your body. That pressure when you feel like you're vibrating and you don't know what to do, and then that's when we turn it off, you know? Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Part of the goal with the window of tolerance and nervous system regulation is that we increase essentially the amount of intensity that we can hold without exiting our window of tolerance. So basically, it's that the person could stay with the Emotion without going into hyperarousal or going into hypoarousal. So we're trying to kind of like maybe the window's like this. So we're trying to, through therapy, kind of get it a little bit bigger over time. That way it's not so that they don't feel, you know, what they're feeling, it's that they could feel that and normally that would be a time where maybe they would drop down suddenly, like plummet into hypo arousal. But instead it's like we got that window a little bit bigger so they can actually stay regulated even as they're feeling those feelings. And I think that that awareness, like you're saying the feeling, your body really noticing it maybe along with being in the safety of that therapeutic experience, like one of the primary things that occurs in a therapy session is that our nervous systems, the therapist is helping co regulate our clients nervous system, right? And so each person kind of has their own nervous system, but we feel each other, we impact each other. And I think even through telephone therapy we can like help create some more capacity. Right. And so when we're working with another person, when a therapist is working with a client, there's a way that our nervous system kind of increases the capacity for what can be felt in that session.

[B]

I think that it's a, it's a mirroring that's happening in that, in that co regulation, right? You're bringing your story forward and you're so afraid of what you're sharing in the client perspective, right? And so then therapist is leaning in and I'm sitting with you in this. Look, look, I'm not scared. You don't have to be scared, right? So we're doing this shared mirroring of the experience that's happening and like if I can show you that I'm willing to, that I can sit in this with you, that maybe this will be far less terrifying and you'll also feel my presence with you. And that kind of, that the fear that comes from experiencing something alone gets to dissipate through the therapeutic experience.

[A]

The poster originally was looking for advice, right? So it, it sounds like may maybe they're in therapy, but maybe they're not. I mean, kudos to this person for being like, and then I feel a yawn coming on. Like I think that kind of, for me at least it's very challenging to like be really in touch with my body, to all of a sudden be like. And then I'll feel a yawn when I'm just like, you Know, I. I don't know. So kudos to this person, I think, for being very honestly in touch with themselves, even though they feel that emotional numbness. But what would maybe be a great next step for this poster or someone who's in a similar experience where they know they have something and they're like, I want to feel this, and I feel like I should be feeling it, but how do I kind of break that cycle of maybe just automatically going into hypoarousal?

[C]

Well, I'm gonna make a plug for somatic therapy. I think, like, this is definitely a case for that. I think to build on the awareness this person already has of their soma, of their body, that's going to be so helpful in, like, trauma recovery and trauma healing. So if they're not already in therapy, definitely get in therapy, because they could probably really benefit from having that co regulation that they would get with a therapist. And then on their own, I would really practice some grounding practices and like, help them just learn how to monitor their arousal, have them bring more awareness to that. Because I think one of the things that's really helpful whenever you're doing trauma work is to have a foundation of understanding your own nervous system. That way, if you do get into hyper hypoarousal, you're like, okay, I know what's happening here. And I also have tools to get myself back into my window of tolerance. And so I think that's really, really important. Being in therapy will definitely help support that. Yeah. But just continuing to bring awareness to the body, I think, is a great start.

[B]

And grounding, I think building towards radical acceptance of, like, that you have these emotions, they're valid, they need validation from a drama therapy perspective, and which is also very much somatic in nature and playful in nature. If this person were sitting in front of me, I. I might kind of reduce the feelings to kind of the ones that a child would feel, which is like mad, sad, angry, afraid. Really just take them down to the simple ones that you would see on the feelings cards. And as they're developing that body awareness, as they're grounding what we do in drama therapy, a lot is externalizing. So imagine that somebody else is experiencing this. What are some of the emotions you imagine they might feel in a situation like this? Tracking those and being aware and just expanding the emotional vocabulary and the. The window of tolerance piece in drama therapy, it's an aesthetic distance. That's kind of what we call it.

[C]

Oh, that is so good.

[B]

You got.

[C]

You have better words.

[B]

That is there's a. There's a part at which you're like, there's a sweet spot between. I'm so emotionally overwhelmed that and too deep in the process. I'm too deep in. In the mix to actually take away the transformative learning and being over distanced. Like, I'm. I'm too far removed. So as a means of getting closer to this, imagining intellectually, what do you think is happening in the feeling landscape of somebody who might be going through something like this? Okay, now let's slow it down and pick one of those emotions and see where it might live in the body.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Go.

[C]

Go hire Ari right now, please.

[A]

Just run, don't walk.

[C]

Go hire her right now.

[A]

That's so beautiful.

[C]

Just hearing you describe that Ari just, like, makes me feel, like, so happy and so comforted. Just like imagining someone getting that kind of support. What you were describing with the aesthetic distance makes me think about mindfulness and nervous system regulation. Right. Part of being in your window of tolerance is not just that you can be present, but that you can also be in the seat of the observer of your own internal landscape. Right. When you're in hyper and hypoarousal, you don't have that perspective. You don't have an aesthetic distance. You are in survival mode. You cannot really reflect. Yeah. You can't really reflect on what's happening as it's happening. Whereas when you are in your window of tolerance, you are able to kind of step back a little bit and be curious about what's happening. And so that's a really good indication, like, if you're ever wondering, like, am I in my window of tolerance or not? It's like, could I think that thought? You know what I mean? If you can't even get there, then, like, the answer is probably no.

[A]

Right.

[C]

If you are in an argument, like, this is a thing that a lot of people do. We're talking about, you know, we've almost gotten into relationship stuff several times in episode. But a lot of people, when they're. We're like, oh, we really want to go there another episode.

[B]

But.

[C]

But one of the things that people will do when they're dating, when they're in partnership is they'll. They'll argue and they'll really want to get to the bottom of it. They'll really want to, like, hash it out. Maybe one person more than the other, maybe both people want to do it, but it's not helpful because you are not in your window of tolerance and you are not able to meaningfully reflect, and you might feel like you're getting somewhere, but you're probably not. Literally, how you use your brain changes in those moments you can't really access your frontal cortex. You are in your midbrain, and you're just not functioning at, like, optimum capacity.

[A]

Yeah. Go to bed angry. It was kind of like, you're debunking that advice a little bit.

[C]

I was not going for that.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Go to bed angry. Maybe not. Go to bed angry. I would say, like, do not expect your partner to solve your emotional problems before going to bed. Also, like, don't start first fights at night. How about that? Like, don't. Don't have those. If you care about your partnership, if you want it to be successful, loving, if you care more about the relationship than just being right, then do not try to have a serious argument or serious discussion. Let's just say that with your partner, when you know you don't have a significant amount of time to really get into it, because you might be thinking.

[A]

I just want this to be done. I just wanted this to be solved real quick.

[C]

But you don't know how your partner feels about that necessarily.

[A]

A worm's egg.

[C]

Right, Right. So. So be intentional.

[B]

Effectively. That is. That's couples therapy. Like, that's an aspect of couples therapy, teaching couples how to better and more effectively. Timing is a big part of that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And. But, you know, going to bed anger, if you say something that you thought was simple and innocuous and you get the response, oh, no, it's not. Oh, no, you opened a can of worms. You. You do have to adjust expectations of whether this may not be resolved in one evening. I like to introduce the concept of a pause. We're just gonna pause because. Time out.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Bring back the timeout.

[C]

Never call a timeout on your partner.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

This is key. I would teach my couples how to use a timeout, and they'd be like, I told so. And so that's time out. I was like, no, you are not listening. When I taught you timeout, you don't.

[B]

Put somebody else on. That's not how that works. No, no. Yes.

[C]

Ex. Nicely, people. Be like, if you think your partner needs a timeout, then what's actually going on is that you need a timeout.

[A]

So take responsibility.

[C]

And there are ways to take timeouts that are. Are taking into account that we don't want to abandon our partners. We don't want to damage the relationship. So there's a way to go about doing this that is very loving and respectful. That doesn't always mean the other person's going to have a positive response. They're going to be like, I'm so glad you're doing that, especially if it's very heated. But there is nonetheless a kind, respectful, healthier way to do that in your partnership, which, you know, someday we'll do a whole episode on relationships.

[A]

I know it's pretty crazy, like, thinking about just how often some of this stuff does involve relationships.

[C]

But, yes, are relational.

[A]

I would love to get to another example. Yeah, that's the thing. It all is. But since we, you know, have someone who is educated on neurodivergence, well, I would love to get to this topic. So this is in the subreddit, adhd, women, a lot of manifestations slash meditation stuff. I see online mentions to try to feel your emotions in the present that you would feel if you had what you wanted or achieved whatever goal you're after. And I generally feel like there's some sort of disconnect with this. My emotions are like a radio panel that's on mute. The lights are blinking, so you know, there's radio traffic coming through, but the knobs are mute so you can't hear anything. Today I got a decent raise after working at this company for two years. And honestly, it's the best work environment I've ever been in. And I should be, all accounts ecstatic, right? But I'm not. Instead, my brain was like, well, this is a little bit more than adjusting for inflation for two years, but, meh, like indifferent. I'm more or less out of the shitty depressive episodes I used to have. But I hate this emotionally numb feeling and hoping someone here might have some advice or things to look into, good books or YouTube channels on this topic, etc. But we have better than good books or YouTube channels because we have two licensed lifters.

[B]

And now it's great.

[C]

I love that you leaned into that.

[A]

Oh, official.

[C]

Ari.

[B]

The loudest thoughts. The loudest thing that I heard in there was the shoulds, right? This person it is talking about. Here's what I should should feel in this scenario. Based off of neurotypical standards, based off of societal expectations. The first thing that I would talk about with this person is, is the shoulds. Should. When you're shoulding all over yourself, usually that means some sort of like, shame response is present. Just as like an FYI.

[A]

Yeah, especially like the manifestation community might be kind of a thing because it's very much like you can manifest your soulmate and millions of dollars and it's just like, maybe, but it's not.

[B]

What if I'm here now? There is another practice of drama therapy is embody. There is a difference between manifesting and embodying something, right? And like, drama therapy is. Is rooted in, you know, theater craft in some ways, but it's also rooted in ritual and shamanism that they never went into that in a program, but it's fine. It's fine.

[C]

And then I went and helped write a book about homotherapy and liberation.

[B]

So to embody something is to engage the senses again, engage the sensory body in. In the experience. Like, you don't say, I want to feel happy. You would physically stand in the position of. Of happiness. And what that does to your core. Like, you're engaging your core, your shoulders are back, your chin is up, your chest is towards the sky.

[C]

Oh, my God. You look happier right now, Ari. Look, it's kind of crazy you watching it.

[B]

Like, all I did was change my physical to kind of move. And so the first thing that I would work with, with this person is, again, we're coming to acceptance. Because this is a big part of being neurodivergent in a world that is a mess and is generally oppressive, that we get to center your own emotional landscape and that. That is enough. And again, some of the depressive episodes that this person was talking about were probably centered in the interpersonal myths of, hey, I feel this way. Oh, but you're supposed to feel this way, right? That. That pattern can be so corrosive over time to being in touch with your own experience. So I would invite this person to celebrate in a way that feels meaningful to them. That is not more. That does not pretend to be something that it's not, does not fulfill the obligations of someone else. And, like, okay, treat yourself to a sticker. And like, that's how you celebrate. That's fantastic. That's enough. Yeah.

[C]

I love that there can be so much pressure to feel a certain way during certain occasions. And I know that freaks me out. I really dislike the performative. Like, I like performing. I do actually like that, but I don't like performing a certain emotion that is otherwise.

[A]

Should.

[C]

Should quote, unquote. There's that word again. Be genuine. And this reminds me of the therapist that I was supervising, who I've. Who I was mentoring for so many years. And as he was getting closer to his licensure and he would pass these different milestones, I'm like, how did you feel?

[A]

You feel?

[C]

And he was like, I don't know. Honestly, not that Much happened.

[A]

I'm so tired.

[C]

Yeah, right. And then he felt weird about that, and he felt bad about that. He was like, oh, shouldn't I feel things? And I'm like, oh, no, now you feel like you should feel things. But I. I think there can be a lot of pressure and a lot of expectations. Like, you know, this is supposed to be a joyous occasion, therefore I must feel ecstatic. I think that person used that word. It's like, I should be ecstatic over this. And it's like. Or you could just feel whatever you're feeling, and that's okay. I feel like that it's almost like performance anxiety. Do you know what I mean? It's like, I'm supposed to be feeling ecstatic, but now I just feel weird and uncomfortable and, ahh, is there something wrong with me? And now I'm really anxious. It's like, no, it's. You're fine. You're okay. You can get a sticker or you.

[A]

Can celebrate this later.

[C]

Or, like, we could just talk about it. Like, it's all okay.

[A]

I just wanted to quick say this, since Felicia just did, but I think it's really. The word should comes up in all these emotional numb conversations, even if PTSD and stuff is present. It's like, this wasn't that big of a deal. I should not be reacting this way, or I'm shutting down and I should be able to be just sobbing for hours about this, or I should be ecstatic about this. This raise. It's almost like, who told us this narrative of, like, you should feel this way in these situations? So maybe it's almost like in some cases, yes, I think there's actually, you know, definitely some nervous system breakage going on or something needs to be healed. But I mean, how much of it could just be like, maybe you're just, like, not feeling right now? And maybe like, sometimes that's okay too, because, like, ecstatic is, like, huge pressure for a job. Like, maybe like a fucking handful of times in my life. Really? Like, yeah, that's huge. You know, and, yeah, it's just a job.

[B]

You can celebrate the milestones. Right? You're exactly building mastery, in a sense, and of. Of your life. You're building independence. Who can celebrate that? But maybe you don't feel much about this. Maybe you feel more about. Cool. That raise allows you to pursue your interests in a. In a way that's more dynamic. Cool. Let's celebrate that. You know, we. A big part of the relational aspect of therapy is, you know, attuning. To the client and meeting them where they're at. What that actually looks like is okay. If I'm bouncing off the wall with excitement and you're not, I'm probably going to name that and then dial it back down to meet client where they're at and then make sure they know that their emotional expression is okay. We can have different ones in the room and it's okay. I can meet you where yours is at, and that can be plenty. That's enough. And these feelings of pain and suffering are a natural reaction to a world that is unnaturally harming you. If you touch fire, you feel pain. It's not wrong to be in pain. It's because you know you were touching fire, like, and it hurts. Like, that is your body's way of receiving and understanding the experiences that. That you're going through. And not just physical pain, but emotional pain and psychological pain. Like, the suffering that we are feeling is a direct response to the pain we are being inflicted that is being inflicted on us living in society. Soapbox done.

[A]

This kind of reminds me. I don't even like this movie. My husband is obsessed with it, but he loves the holiday. Every time we're on a plane, I swear to God, he puts the holiday on.

[C]

Is that the one with.

[A]

I love the Kate Winslet, Cameron Diaz, Jude Law? Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I pick and choose. I'm like, this is a bit much for me. But the reason I bring this up is because Cameron Diaz's character cannot cry, right? And she'll just sit and she'll just like, pretend like. Like he's trying to. Like, she's literally like herself. Like, she'll, like, get into crying pose just to, like, try to get herself to cry. And then that kind of reminds me of, like, the emotional numb where it's like, yeah, this should hurt me, but I'm not. Or like, this should make me really happy, but it's not. And I think maybe that's where a lot of this conversation is too. Where it's like, is. Is. I think people just really want to know, am I broken? Yeah, like, something wrong with me that I am not crying, you know? Yeah, you're not broken, but society is.

[B]

Trying to break you. The world we live in is actively trying to break us all the time. But I do not believe that. That we are broken. In response, I was working with a client. He was talking about ending a relationship and immediately went into the narrative of, like, I'm broken and therefore I'm. I'm throwing away this kind of, like, perfectly nice dude. And I'm like, let's check in about that.

[A]

Is he perfectly nice?

[B]

I was like, let's thicken that narrative a little bit. Then we started exploring all the ways that they were kind of a mismatch, all the ways that he didn't meet her, all the ways that he, I don't know, made jokes about her pain sometimes. And I'm like, that doesn't sound like the narrative that you're playing in your head. Can we challenge those stories a little bit and. And thicken that narrative and allow it to be real, actually reflect what's happening? It's very easy to go into the story that society tells us again and again that we're broken. If you were less broken, then this would work. Like, wait, no, this situation was broken. The situation wasn't working for me, and I left it. That's a really healthy response.

[A]

That's where your therapist really thinks about that. I mean, now is kind of what I was.

[C]

Hey, we did it.

[A]

This is gonna be my transition. About, like, okay, you're, like, emotionally numb. What does your therapist really think? I don't know. Ari, do you have any amendments?

[B]

They're all there waiting for you. That's creepier. That's scornier.

[C]

Let me amend my previous statement. Something that's terrifying.

[B]

Oh, emotionally numb. We all have dirty laundry.

[C]

It's fine.

[B]

It's okay. You're not broken.

[C]

I think that's at the heart of it for me, too. This idea of, like, it makes sense that people are kind of checking to see, like, being prairie dogs. They're like, are we. Is this okay? Like, are we all doing this? You know, I think there's something about that that is adaptive. Am I on the right track? Like, what are we all doing? Is there something here that's amiss? Can my community help me? I think there's something that's really kind of beautiful about that, but I also think it gets, like, we weaponize it against ourselves. Like, when I think about, like, my own theory of change and my own understanding of health, any change needs to start with, like, a real radical connection to the current reality. Like, I feel like so much of what I see when people come into therapy is sort of like, I want things to be different, and things should not be this way. And there's just such a resistance to fear, feeling how things are right now and really connecting with what's happening right now. And I feel like that just absolutely has to be the starting point, like, whether it should or shouldn't be this way. Or whether you can change it or can change it, whether it's your fault or somebody else's fault, whatever. Whatever it may be right now, it's like this. And can we just like be in that moment together and then we'll figure the rest out. But let's just be here and connect to a basic sense of okayness. Because at that point, really, really fundamentally there is a sense of okayness. So can we find that in the moment with all of. All of these things still being true and then work from there? Then we get so many more possibilities because so often when we start on our healing journey, we're like, I want it to be this way.

[B]

Right?

[A]

This is bad.

[C]

This is right. Let's just get over there as quickly as we possibly can. And it's like, hold on. Let's just be here together for a moment. It's like the last thing people want to do. But honestly, I think it's the foundation of real change.

[A]

Oh, my God. I just get to sit here and listen to you too and just soak up all this amazing. And I went into this being like, numb non issue, you know, over here. But I. Yeah, I feel like I. I have learned so much from. From both of you. And yes, you're welcome for the wildlife tips.

[C]

Yes, we've all learned how to evade, fight a bear, grizzly bears, maybe evade potentially a grizzly bear. Let's go test out this theory. No doubt. Please, no one do that. Avoid grizzly bears. Thank you for joining us today, everyone. We're so glad you're here. Thank you, Ari, for being our guest and wow, we've learned so much about drama therapy and the nervous system and like, like, again, you're just clearly such an amazing clinician. I know you obviously well, but I just feel like that came across so well. Like, I'm just so impressed with, like.

[A]

How you approach the work, how you.

[C]

Meet clients, and such an honor to.

[B]

Have you feel real good after hearing that. That's just. I feel built up, soul is lighter. My pleasure, my privilege to be here. Thank you so much.